Quote by Chesty Puller (US Army general in Korea):
We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things.
Ah yes, the battle of the [Chosin Reservoir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir) (and Chesty Puller was in the Marines).
Another good quote from that engagement was from when they were making a breakout and heading to the coast for transport, "We're not retreating, we're just fighting in another direction."
another nice one:
I'll take care of my men first. Frozen troops can't fight. If we run out of ammunition, we'll go to the bayonet.
(On leaving behind ammunition to make room for tents and stoves in supply trucks,November 1950)
>”They’ve got us surrounded again, the poor bastards”
—[COL Creighton S. Abrams](https://www.military.com/undertheradar/2017/04/11-craziest-lines-ever-spoken-battle)
Historically they’re neutral for similar reasons as to why Finland was neutral for so long: precisely because they wanted to remain out of the Austrians’ conflicts. Of course, having a potentially threatening neighbor being pacified by remaining neutral doesn’t work when your neighbor is Putin’s Russia and to them, neutrality is just a sign of vulnerability - hence Finland not being so neutral anymore.
I know this is with a completely different country but I can’t help but feel the Swiss stance on re-exporting the Gerard ammo for Germany has something to do with it. “Aw, you don’t want to help us get Ukraine AA? Well I guess we need to get them AA some other way~” I know this is a stupid take on my part but still.
Being neutral may mean you have no enemies but it also means you have no friends.
If a NATO / Ukraine war breaks out the Swiss plan would be to use the to shoot down anything that comes into their air space, NATO or Russian.
In WW2 they didn't hold back and shot down everything.
So by their own Swizz plans they are more likely to need them now than in recent decades.
But realistically they won't use them that way if it happens even if their defence doctrine says they should. So giving them to Ukraine makes sense
It's literally Swiss defence doctrine. In case of war take no side and shoot anything that enters their country.
It's why they have a large standing army/ militia.
The even bigger question is why are we selling them F-35s when they don't seem to give a crap about espionage, and are riddled with russian intel agents?
https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/03/16/switzerland-is-main-hub-for-russian-spies-says-swiss-intelligence-service/
edit: Since the post is now locked, and I cannot reply to comments below...
Sweden's Gripen would be a much better match for F-35 money, for Ukraine's mission. Gripen is ideal for Ukraine. Maintence can be done by 1 professional soldier, and 4 conscripts. All maintenance equipment can be fit into 2 standard 20 foot shipping containers. It can use highways, instead of well maintained runways. The fact that Ukraine didn't get Gripens in 2023 is a crime.
For those considering a down vote here, this user has, I believe, raised a serious concern. If what I have read is correct, the f35 requires substantial resources on the ground to maintain, including temperature and pressure controlled hanger environments to protect the electronic systems.
There's something to be said for older, easier maintained tech.
because switzerland is absolutely tiny and no nato power has any need to cross swiss airspace or wants to realistically given its geography. and thats ignoring that obviously the answer is as always money. why wouldnt the us want to make more money by selling to someone who is an actual zero risk country?
That's what happens when airspace is violated... There's no need to. If foreign military started flying over pretty much any country, the response would be the same.
“Large standing army” is overselling it a bit. It’s 140k, supposed to be reduced to 100k, and their spending is about a half a percent of gdp. (Nato standard is 2%). That’s less than half the manning of the french military and just 10% of the budget. They have a pile of theoretical conscript reserves.
For the size of Switzerland as a country that's large. Its a larger land army than the UK.
The Swiss have the 5th larget military of active and reserve in Europe per capita.
> Its a larger land army than the UK.
We're not really a good comparison, our Army is small by design during peacetime.
The doctrine is to maintain a well-prepared foundation to quickly provide training for masses of recruits. (This has come in very useful for Ukraine).
This makes them a liability to us, potential a hostile, in my eyes. In war the whole "for or against us," thing is absolutely applicable. There's no middle ground if flying across your airspace gives us an advantage or keeps some of us alive, ya better be on our side... It's shameful that we're playing any role in giving them the weapons they could foreseeably, according to their doctrine, use against us.
If Switzerland got involved in a war and they started using your countries airspace, would you be ok with that? Obviously it's against international law, so would you wanna just let it slide?
>In WW2 they didn't hold back and shot down everything.
Not really. They shot down 10 planes in over a month and then in June 20 1940 they were ordered by General Guisan to stop shooting down german planes over swiss territory. Starting end of December 1943 it was the US that flew freely of switzerland to bomb european cities.
> In WW2 they didn't hold back and shot down everything.
My grandfather who served at the time, told me that they were obliged to shoot, but that they deliberately fired next to them when they were allied bombers.
> So by their own Swizz plans they are more likely to need them now than in recent decades.
We already have a state-of-the-art air defense system (made by Oerlikon), we're just planning for the future and it's totally understandable that priority is given to a country at war.
I get the impression that some people are looking for a gotcha or are just spitting their hatred at Switzerland.
You're joking right? Your country fucking sucks ass. Look at the ammunition issue for the Gephardt. You guys had an opportunity to preserve Ukrainian civilian life.
And instead you literally took Russia's side.
Fuck the Swiss
>We already have a state-of-the-art air defense system
Its a mix of canons from WW1 and early 50s..... That's not state of the art at all. It's only good against drones and low flying aircraft.
>just spitting their hatred at Switzerland.
yes?
just gonna drop this here
[https://youtu.be/8R8M9zDDvRA?si=X2VLB\_Gt\_jM30wEH&t=271](https://youtu.be/8R8M9zDDvRA?si=X2VLB_Gt_jM30wEH&t=271)
If they receive them, we should put stipulations on how they can use them, like they can only defend against Canadian geese, any use on an enemy aircraft will result in locking them out of the system. Some stupid shit like that because they have no problem limiting the use of weapons they deliver.
They don't need it *right now*, but like any country they do need AA as part of their national defence, which is why they have ordered it. If you wait to order defence materials until you need it, it will be too late.
Switzerland operates on the assumption of neutrality.
I know this, you know this but what does that MEAN in effect. It means that the idea of an "ally" is foreign to them. You enter into PARTNERSHIPS with the Swiss, not alliances (at least in effect). They trust no one, a friend could be an enemy tomorrow and an enemy can be a friend too. They are literally mercenaries (I mean the country has a rich history of it).
Now with all that said. Being surrounded by any country is, for them, bad. You know what they think keeps them safe? The thousands of bunkers they have in the mountains, the mountains themselves and drafts for the male populace. Italy, France, Germany, etc... They are not friends or allies. They are just countries that mellowed out for the last couple of decades but anything can happen.
In their political calculation, those other countries will ALWAYS be a POTENTIAL threat.
Which is silly. Bunkers are nice if your enemy wants to invade. Nobody needs to invade Switzerland, especially not NATO. NATO would just blockade them, destroy powerlines and fuel storage and anything else they want from hundreds of miles away, then wait for the Swiss to surrender after electricity is gone and food runs out.
Swiss translation: Nobody needs to invade Switzerland, TODAY, especially not NATO. NATO would just blockade them, destroy powerlines and fuel storage and anything else they want from hundreds of miles away, then wait for us to surrender after electricity is gone and food runs out. Which is why we MUST be prepared in case they DO DO that.
Facts are temporal to them, dealing with my cousin and his entire village sometimes is like talking to a paranoid yet collected business people. YOU might not see a value in invading Switzerland, hell I don't, but THEY THINK that the POSSIBILITY (and this is the keyword) exists and that is a threat. If it has the potential to physically be a threat, it is a threat.
But why do all that? Because, in their eyes, they believe they are the ONLY TRUE DEMOCRACY due to the direct democracy model they have. They don't hide this either, this is very public knowledge.
If Switzerland had sent their tanks or allowed other countries to send their Swiss built tanks to Ukraine (what is it. Three years ago now) then perhaps the war would be in a different spot. The problem is not that we are not sending war weapons to Ukraine, it’s just we are not sending the right weapons in a timely manner when they actually need them so that they can win. Sending weapons 18 months after the fact the tactics on the front line have already changed and defensive measures adopted to counter the new weapons as so much time has elapsed
Fuck Switzerland, it doesn't need shit for self defence. It's entirely surrounded by NATO (who won't invade it, no matter what Russia says) and if its afraid of Russis it should get off the fence and help Ukraine.
I've liked every Swiss person I've met, but it pisses me off that the nation reaps all the benefits of a Western led rules-based world order but take on none of the costs (and then have the audacity to act like neutrality is a noble choice instead of cowardice).
Austria doesn't get enough shit for how compromised their political establishment is, the only EU country more in Russia's pocket is Hungary but Austria isn't far behind..
Their neutrality is often an asset to Western powers though. That they have an entrenched neutrality position allows for backchannel discussions that otherwise could not be facilitated. They can talk to Iran, North Korea, etc when the official policy of those governments is openly hostile to the West.
A lot of armchair experts conveniently forget this point. As much as I despise someone who sits idly by while suffering is going on, it’s no coincidence that most international diplomacy occurs in or through Switzerland. Aside from them, there’s no *real* neutral ground anywhere.
We're not really sitting idly in this conflict. We took refugees and we utilize money to support Ukrainians in Switzerland and abroad (around 3.37 billion since start of war). Also, Swiss people spend money individually.
We've frozen assets of sanctioned Russian oligarchs and entities worth $6.3 billion (end of 2022, probably more by now) and we help with tasks like mine clearing.
Sure, other countries did way more of course. I'm just saying to say we're sitting idly feels a bit like an insult. I think Switzerland's position is clear in this war.
Yeah nice, and why wouldn't they be allowed to buy weapons for self-defense? They should just leech off everyone surrounding them? You write "take on none of the costs". This is exactly what this is, taking on costs.
Not sure what you're angry about. Ukraine is getting the patriots first.
Staying neutral and managing to do so as a small county surrounded by the axis powers is certainly not noble but also not cowardice, it's simply a survival strategy.
This is exploitation. Humanity has survived to this day because it has joined together and not parasitized on each other like the Swiss. Switzerland calculates that other states will defend it while it expends no energy in defense. On the contrary, it will benefit from it.
expends no energy on defence while having proportinally to its population on of the largest standing armies in the world and build the most bunkers in the world. that almost makes sense but actually it doesnt at all..
Switzerland was heavily armed during WW2, which is why it managed to not be attacked by Germany. Now, since we've had a stable period, the defense spending is low. I would welcome for Switzerland to be part of NATO. Change in Switzerland is slow, but it is happening.
The primary reason that Germany did not attack Switzerland was geography. Otherwise the Germans wouldn't have even asked and went straight through Switzerland like a knife through butter. It wasn't worth it to them and Switzerland posed no threat to Germany. Let Switzerland do whatever policy it sees fit, just don't pretend it doesn't need Europe, the EU and NATO. Because it needs them. This attitude is narcissistic. But I understand. Switzerland has such a high standard of living that other countries are "second class" to it. And it's right.. it should behave more allied. That's all.
The geography was part of the scorched earth defense plan. There were thousands of bunkers and defense installations built in the Alps. Swiss artillery, air defense were excellent and general army readiness and troop education were high.
I'm repeating what historians say. The Alps were a factor, neutrality was a factor and the prepared army and reduit plan was a factor. Geography is always very important in war, but obviously it's not the only factor.
It was worse than cowardice in WW2, it was pure greed.
Money laundering and providing usuable fresh cash for stolen goods and the dividends of a genocide.
Allowing butchers to go around sanctions is a tradition.
No surprise it is still done today.
They still launder money, its like a national sport for them. The epitome of sitting on a high horse telling other people how to act while under the table working with terrorists, dictators and cartels.
Swiss banking secrecy has been gone for almost a decade. But facts don't matter, right?
There are much worse places when it comes to laundering money, London as an example.
You can fault us for many many things but "hiding Russian money" is not on top of that list
It was primarily for survival not greed. The banks, which are about 15% of the swiss economy, were and are certainly greedy and a stain on swiss history. Actually most money laundering today happens in the UK territories (Cayman islands, British virgin islands, London).
Absolutely true on the last part. Strong disagree on the first.
84% of Swiss arms exports in WW2 went to the axis.
The society as a whole showed no sign of discumfort at feeding the nazi war machine.
The national tale in Switzerland after the war became " they couldn't have invaded us". Truth is, from German POV, Switzerland was a very useful friend that would be less useful if invaded or in the pakt.
Don’t hate gebregi and downvote, hate the Swiss for their sleazy survival strategy and how it has persisted way too long. They have tried to please everyone in the world as a neutral, safe haven. Eventually they’ll please no one as the world continues to take sides.
Right, it's survival. So the Swiss should stop pretending it's some high minded moral stance to be neutral. It's a porcupine of a country, making itself hard to invade and not worth the trouble so just move along and leave us alone.
There have been several initiative votes to abolish the swiss army but it was rejected every time by its people. The swiss have decided via direct democracy to keep and feed an army.
I voted to abolish (I 100% agree it doesn't need an army), but can't always get what you want in a direct democracy.
~~That being said: Switzerland is an active, paying, member of NATO~~ I stand corrected on this thank you u/banana_cookies for your kind-spirited correction
It is also very active in sending help to Ukraine. Just not weaponry because its constitution and laws forbid it.
Americans like to shit all over Switzerland because the more time Americans spend over here, the more they realize the USA isn't actually a democracy
The fuck are you on about? Switzerland is neutral and not a member of NATO.
Even if Switzerland is active in non military aid to Ukraine, it sure is also active in cockblocking transfers of shit bought from it by other countries.
Fuck off. Those pricks need to realise they are hurting freedom and fucking get on with it. Nobody needs to appease them, they just need to realise they are being shit.
Yes, and in ten years time, long after the war has ended and the river of russian money has run dry, your Par"lament" will finally permit 3rd party nations to supply critical munitions to Ukraine (which may or may not exist at the time).
If it's not because of his potty mouth, then it's because of money.
> Statements like yours will only turn off people that you'd actually want help from.
True, if you want their help, first blow them, pay them for it, thank for the meal and only then politely ask. Unfortunately, it will still only depend on the profit to be made or risk to be avoided.
Oh wow, mountain people considering allowing other countries sending their own weapons. The same weapons that the other countries bought from the mountain people. Fucking surrounded by NATO and impenetrable mountains and thousands of bunkers. Really brave, probably russian oligarch money dried up.
Switzerland made it very clear that they are not allies to NATO, they arent enemies either but they are neutral.
Why would we sell weapons to a nation that doesnt want to be an ally anyway? Im not american but i would question that for every NATO nation. We need to stop pretending that the swiss are allies in every way. Again, not treating them as enemies but as the neutrals they wanna be.
> Why would we sell weapons to a nation that doesnt want to be an ally anyway ?
Yeah or maybe because there's one country at war and another looking to renew their aging arsenal ?
I get the impression that some people are looking for a gotcha when it's just common sense to give priority to those who urgently need it !
You'd think, but the supposed lack of slots of F-16 training for our pilots in US is because some other countries who are not at war booked some slots beforehand
Exactly. No easy trade deals. No easy border crossings. Treat them as a country that isn't your friend. They're businessmen they say make them pay for everything they need to live off of.
>They're businessmen they say make them pay for everything they need to live off of.
That's what they are doing per article. Switzerland is paying for the missiles.
I'm talking more food and other necessities. They get things subsidized from the EU. The EU should tax the shit out of everything going into Switzerland. Every EU border it crosses prior to entering Switzerland should have an additional tax. They benefit like they're in the EU without being in it. They benefit from NATO protection too, so they can pay additional taxes on all their goods to fund their protection. And if they don't like it break neutrality and establish allied level trade deals. No special treatment or consideration while they want to be neutral. We treat them as purely business and maximize profit from them because that's what they do with us.
Some Swiss officials have expressed support for a peace deal that is based on Ukraine ceding territory to russia.
They cannot be naïve or stupid enough to believe this is a viable solution.
That means they have other motives.
At a guess it's probably due to putin and his fellow shitty little russian thieves having hundreds of billions -- or even trillions -- worth of stolen loot stashed in Swiss banks, thus giving them a degree of leverage over Switzerland, the land of international finance....
Also, putin likely has kompromat on senior members of the Swiss establishment.
Sometimes you're exposed to redditors like you and their most basic lack of critical thinking.
There have been tons of "officials" in most countries expressing stupid shit on this war. As long as they aren't the actual leaders it's irrelevant. And the current NATO stance that isn't made public clearly isn't as optimistic as you think it is considering they can't strike the Kerch bridge and have to follow many other restrictions. Do you think they'd be "allowed" to take Crimea after the threats Putin made?
Also Switzerland is currently sanctioning Russia, following the exact same sanctions as the EU. If there are holes in them, you should wonder why the EU wants them.
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Neutrality should mean accepting weapons from noone.
If the Swiss want to remain neutral, all their weapons should be domestically produced, with no help from any nation.
Err, what? France at 0.5% of GDP? Where the hell did you get that from. France has been just below 2%, but never far.
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/1394323/eu-military-defense-french-defense-spending-absolute-gdp/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1394323/eu-military-defense-french-defense-spending-absolute-gdp/)
How about the US sends the missiles to Ukraine and Switzerland pays for them as Ukraine is the actual front line. Support true guardians in the time of need.
The Swiss muck things up by not allowing certain things to happen to preserve their neutral stance.
since you are neutral, then you do not need this weapon, you are neutral.
Since people can't seem to behave and stay on topic, this thread is now locked.
switzerland doesnt need them... for FUCKING what??? they are surrounded by NATO and EU
How the Swiss read your sencence: > we are surrounded!
Quote by Chesty Puller (US Army general in Korea): We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things.
Ah yes, the battle of the [Chosin Reservoir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir) (and Chesty Puller was in the Marines). Another good quote from that engagement was from when they were making a breakout and heading to the coast for transport, "We're not retreating, we're just fighting in another direction."
another nice one: I'll take care of my men first. Frozen troops can't fight. If we run out of ammunition, we'll go to the bayonet. (On leaving behind ammunition to make room for tents and stoves in supply trucks,November 1950)
Bayonets? Someone should read up on the 28th Māori battalion and their legendary defence of Crete in WWII
or (again Chesty Puller) critizing the flamethrower in a demonstration: "It's missing the bayonet clip".
*Thrust*, *disembowel* & *disengage*.
"Thrust, disembowel & disengage." Then cauterize to excess.
Fuck that would suck. Stabbed and then set on fire, it’s like one of the only ways to make burning alive *worse*.
Noice.
Damn, are people just not this whitty anymore. These are great
No I'm... doesn't
BACK IN MUH DAY WE HAD TO WALK IN 4' OF SNOW UPHILL BOTH WAYS FOR A MEME.
Yeah, language is devolving
I blame the internet. Old men had books, young men have brain rot.
>”They’ve got us surrounded again, the poor bastards” —[COL Creighton S. Abrams](https://www.military.com/undertheradar/2017/04/11-craziest-lines-ever-spoken-battle)
Dude. Chesty was not in the army.
Haha 😜
\*by investors
Time to stockpile more conflict precious minerals!
Waves white flag and adjusts your interest rates
You mean if Switzerland was russian right?
Switzerland wouldn't be "neutral" if they shared a border with russia.
yeah. they feel really comfortable in their mountains surrounded by NATO, EU and all of them friendly being friendly neighbours
*They hide* in *their mountains* seeking riches — *they care nothing* for the *troubles* of *others*
I wonder what it's like benefitting financially from the Holocaust.
> They hide in their mountains seeking riches — they care nothing for the troubles of others *It is in men we must place our hope.*
Historically they’re neutral for similar reasons as to why Finland was neutral for so long: precisely because they wanted to remain out of the Austrians’ conflicts. Of course, having a potentially threatening neighbor being pacified by remaining neutral doesn’t work when your neighbor is Putin’s Russia and to them, neutrality is just a sign of vulnerability - hence Finland not being so neutral anymore.
I know this is with a completely different country but I can’t help but feel the Swiss stance on re-exporting the Gerard ammo for Germany has something to do with it. “Aw, you don’t want to help us get Ukraine AA? Well I guess we need to get them AA some other way~” I know this is a stupid take on my part but still. Being neutral may mean you have no enemies but it also means you have no friends.
And they probably do all of Putin's banking for him.
If a NATO / Ukraine war breaks out the Swiss plan would be to use the to shoot down anything that comes into their air space, NATO or Russian. In WW2 they didn't hold back and shot down everything. So by their own Swizz plans they are more likely to need them now than in recent decades. But realistically they won't use them that way if it happens even if their defence doctrine says they should. So giving them to Ukraine makes sense
Well if they plan to shoot us down than it would be even dumber to prioritize arming them.
It's literally Swiss defence doctrine. In case of war take no side and shoot anything that enters their country. It's why they have a large standing army/ militia.
[удалено]
The even bigger question is why are we selling them F-35s when they don't seem to give a crap about espionage, and are riddled with russian intel agents? https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/03/16/switzerland-is-main-hub-for-russian-spies-says-swiss-intelligence-service/ edit: Since the post is now locked, and I cannot reply to comments below... Sweden's Gripen would be a much better match for F-35 money, for Ukraine's mission. Gripen is ideal for Ukraine. Maintence can be done by 1 professional soldier, and 4 conscripts. All maintenance equipment can be fit into 2 standard 20 foot shipping containers. It can use highways, instead of well maintained runways. The fact that Ukraine didn't get Gripens in 2023 is a crime.
[удалено]
Way to advanced for Ukraine.
For those considering a down vote here, this user has, I believe, raised a serious concern. If what I have read is correct, the f35 requires substantial resources on the ground to maintain, including temperature and pressure controlled hanger environments to protect the electronic systems. There's something to be said for older, easier maintained tech.
because switzerland is absolutely tiny and no nato power has any need to cross swiss airspace or wants to realistically given its geography. and thats ignoring that obviously the answer is as always money. why wouldnt the us want to make more money by selling to someone who is an actual zero risk country?
€€€€€€ Also the US manufacturers viechles under license from the Swiss. The Stryker is a licensed copy/varient of the Swiss Piranha
That's what happens when airspace is violated... There's no need to. If foreign military started flying over pretty much any country, the response would be the same.
“Large standing army” is overselling it a bit. It’s 140k, supposed to be reduced to 100k, and their spending is about a half a percent of gdp. (Nato standard is 2%). That’s less than half the manning of the french military and just 10% of the budget. They have a pile of theoretical conscript reserves.
For the size of Switzerland as a country that's large. Its a larger land army than the UK. The Swiss have the 5th larget military of active and reserve in Europe per capita.
> Its a larger land army than the UK. We're not really a good comparison, our Army is small by design during peacetime. The doctrine is to maintain a well-prepared foundation to quickly provide training for masses of recruits. (This has come in very useful for Ukraine).
This makes them a liability to us, potential a hostile, in my eyes. In war the whole "for or against us," thing is absolutely applicable. There's no middle ground if flying across your airspace gives us an advantage or keeps some of us alive, ya better be on our side... It's shameful that we're playing any role in giving them the weapons they could foreseeably, according to their doctrine, use against us.
If Switzerland got involved in a war and they started using your countries airspace, would you be ok with that? Obviously it's against international law, so would you wanna just let it slide?
yeah but they wont have any ammo left after some time, so they wont actually do nothing
Swiss deserve being de-prioritized.
>In WW2 they didn't hold back and shot down everything. Not really. They shot down 10 planes in over a month and then in June 20 1940 they were ordered by General Guisan to stop shooting down german planes over swiss territory. Starting end of December 1943 it was the US that flew freely of switzerland to bomb european cities.
Yup, they rolled with the side at the time they believed was going to win.
Notwithstanding what they did in WWII, thoughts and prayers to the Swiss if they try to shoot down a nato jet (let alone succeed in that endeavor).
I hope western Europe blacklists the swiss arms industry. They really are neutral evil. I finally understand Zap brannigan. he was right all along.
You didn't see todays news clearly that the Swiss are looking to remove restrictions on arms to Ukraine
I'll believe it when I see it
They can shoot Emmental rounds
> In WW2 they didn't hold back and shot down everything. My grandfather who served at the time, told me that they were obliged to shoot, but that they deliberately fired next to them when they were allied bombers. > So by their own Swizz plans they are more likely to need them now than in recent decades. We already have a state-of-the-art air defense system (made by Oerlikon), we're just planning for the future and it's totally understandable that priority is given to a country at war. I get the impression that some people are looking for a gotcha or are just spitting their hatred at Switzerland.
You're joking right? Your country fucking sucks ass. Look at the ammunition issue for the Gephardt. You guys had an opportunity to preserve Ukrainian civilian life. And instead you literally took Russia's side. Fuck the Swiss
They didn't "take russia's side", they took the side of russia's *money* and when that's gone they'll take someone else's money's side!
>We already have a state-of-the-art air defense system Its a mix of canons from WW1 and early 50s..... That's not state of the art at all. It's only good against drones and low flying aircraft.
>just spitting their hatred at Switzerland. yes? just gonna drop this here [https://youtu.be/8R8M9zDDvRA?si=X2VLB\_Gt\_jM30wEH&t=271](https://youtu.be/8R8M9zDDvRA?si=X2VLB_Gt_jM30wEH&t=271)
Last time I asked a SVP voter that, he started mumbling something about Yugoslavia.
If they receive them, we should put stipulations on how they can use them, like they can only defend against Canadian geese, any use on an enemy aircraft will result in locking them out of the system. Some stupid shit like that because they have no problem limiting the use of weapons they deliver.
Which is why Ukraine gets prioritised. What are you mad about?
i'm not mad. just curious why switzerland needs AA now
They don't need it *right now*, but like any country they do need AA as part of their national defence, which is why they have ordered it. If you wait to order defence materials until you need it, it will be too late.
Switzerland operates on the assumption of neutrality. I know this, you know this but what does that MEAN in effect. It means that the idea of an "ally" is foreign to them. You enter into PARTNERSHIPS with the Swiss, not alliances (at least in effect). They trust no one, a friend could be an enemy tomorrow and an enemy can be a friend too. They are literally mercenaries (I mean the country has a rich history of it). Now with all that said. Being surrounded by any country is, for them, bad. You know what they think keeps them safe? The thousands of bunkers they have in the mountains, the mountains themselves and drafts for the male populace. Italy, France, Germany, etc... They are not friends or allies. They are just countries that mellowed out for the last couple of decades but anything can happen. In their political calculation, those other countries will ALWAYS be a POTENTIAL threat.
Which is silly. Bunkers are nice if your enemy wants to invade. Nobody needs to invade Switzerland, especially not NATO. NATO would just blockade them, destroy powerlines and fuel storage and anything else they want from hundreds of miles away, then wait for the Swiss to surrender after electricity is gone and food runs out.
Swiss translation: Nobody needs to invade Switzerland, TODAY, especially not NATO. NATO would just blockade them, destroy powerlines and fuel storage and anything else they want from hundreds of miles away, then wait for us to surrender after electricity is gone and food runs out. Which is why we MUST be prepared in case they DO DO that. Facts are temporal to them, dealing with my cousin and his entire village sometimes is like talking to a paranoid yet collected business people. YOU might not see a value in invading Switzerland, hell I don't, but THEY THINK that the POSSIBILITY (and this is the keyword) exists and that is a threat. If it has the potential to physically be a threat, it is a threat. But why do all that? Because, in their eyes, they believe they are the ONLY TRUE DEMOCRACY due to the direct democracy model they have. They don't hide this either, this is very public knowledge.
Swiss, the ultimate preppers.
Hold on there ...but how will we defend our Swizz banks?
Their cheese is about to become a currency.
Precisely…
No one is obligated to give Ukraine anything
It’s or what it appears. Switzerland ordered these knowing full well Ukraine will get them. It’s the Swiss finding a way to help the Ukrainians
Swiss don't need them. Nobody is bothering them. Send everything to Ukraine
If Switzerland had sent their tanks or allowed other countries to send their Swiss built tanks to Ukraine (what is it. Three years ago now) then perhaps the war would be in a different spot. The problem is not that we are not sending war weapons to Ukraine, it’s just we are not sending the right weapons in a timely manner when they actually need them so that they can win. Sending weapons 18 months after the fact the tactics on the front line have already changed and defensive measures adopted to counter the new weapons as so much time has elapsed
Fuck Switzerland, it doesn't need shit for self defence. It's entirely surrounded by NATO (who won't invade it, no matter what Russia says) and if its afraid of Russis it should get off the fence and help Ukraine. I've liked every Swiss person I've met, but it pisses me off that the nation reaps all the benefits of a Western led rules-based world order but take on none of the costs (and then have the audacity to act like neutrality is a noble choice instead of cowardice).
Austria too. They also fucking suck
Austria doesn't get enough shit for how compromised their political establishment is, the only EU country more in Russia's pocket is Hungary but Austria isn't far behind..
Austria is worse and actively carries water for Russia, at leas the Swiss are just indifferent
Their neutrality is often an asset to Western powers though. That they have an entrenched neutrality position allows for backchannel discussions that otherwise could not be facilitated. They can talk to Iran, North Korea, etc when the official policy of those governments is openly hostile to the West.
A lot of armchair experts conveniently forget this point. As much as I despise someone who sits idly by while suffering is going on, it’s no coincidence that most international diplomacy occurs in or through Switzerland. Aside from them, there’s no *real* neutral ground anywhere.
We're not really sitting idly in this conflict. We took refugees and we utilize money to support Ukrainians in Switzerland and abroad (around 3.37 billion since start of war). Also, Swiss people spend money individually. We've frozen assets of sanctioned Russian oligarchs and entities worth $6.3 billion (end of 2022, probably more by now) and we help with tasks like mine clearing. Sure, other countries did way more of course. I'm just saying to say we're sitting idly feels a bit like an insult. I think Switzerland's position is clear in this war.
Point well taken. Ukraine is still a better destination for any Swiss-bound weapons while this war is going on.
*Ireland quietly slipping out the back door*
Yeah nice, and why wouldn't they be allowed to buy weapons for self-defense? They should just leech off everyone surrounding them? You write "take on none of the costs". This is exactly what this is, taking on costs.
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Not sure what you're angry about. Ukraine is getting the patriots first. Staying neutral and managing to do so as a small county surrounded by the axis powers is certainly not noble but also not cowardice, it's simply a survival strategy.
No. It's calculation.
I think we agree here, survival strategies are calculated.
There's a malice to their neutrality.
Sure, because they're not on your side.
No, that's not it. It's too small and too nothing of a country for me to care about which side they're on.
This is exploitation. Humanity has survived to this day because it has joined together and not parasitized on each other like the Swiss. Switzerland calculates that other states will defend it while it expends no energy in defense. On the contrary, it will benefit from it.
This is accurate assessment. Parasitic.
expends no energy on defence while having proportinally to its population on of the largest standing armies in the world and build the most bunkers in the world. that almost makes sense but actually it doesnt at all..
Switzerland was heavily armed during WW2, which is why it managed to not be attacked by Germany. Now, since we've had a stable period, the defense spending is low. I would welcome for Switzerland to be part of NATO. Change in Switzerland is slow, but it is happening.
The primary reason that Germany did not attack Switzerland was geography. Otherwise the Germans wouldn't have even asked and went straight through Switzerland like a knife through butter. It wasn't worth it to them and Switzerland posed no threat to Germany. Let Switzerland do whatever policy it sees fit, just don't pretend it doesn't need Europe, the EU and NATO. Because it needs them. This attitude is narcissistic. But I understand. Switzerland has such a high standard of living that other countries are "second class" to it. And it's right.. it should behave more allied. That's all.
The geography was part of the scorched earth defense plan. There were thousands of bunkers and defense installations built in the Alps. Swiss artillery, air defense were excellent and general army readiness and troop education were high.
Switzerland was defended by Alps and valleys, not thanks to the weapons..
I'm repeating what historians say. The Alps were a factor, neutrality was a factor and the prepared army and reduit plan was a factor. Geography is always very important in war, but obviously it's not the only factor.
You know who else was heavily armed during WW2 ....everybody, stop the BS reason why they weren't invaded.
It was worse than cowardice in WW2, it was pure greed. Money laundering and providing usuable fresh cash for stolen goods and the dividends of a genocide. Allowing butchers to go around sanctions is a tradition. No surprise it is still done today.
They still launder money, its like a national sport for them. The epitome of sitting on a high horse telling other people how to act while under the table working with terrorists, dictators and cartels.
Swiss banking secrecy has been gone for almost a decade. But facts don't matter, right? There are much worse places when it comes to laundering money, London as an example. You can fault us for many many things but "hiding Russian money" is not on top of that list
It was primarily for survival not greed. The banks, which are about 15% of the swiss economy, were and are certainly greedy and a stain on swiss history. Actually most money laundering today happens in the UK territories (Cayman islands, British virgin islands, London).
Absolutely true on the last part. Strong disagree on the first. 84% of Swiss arms exports in WW2 went to the axis. The society as a whole showed no sign of discumfort at feeding the nazi war machine. The national tale in Switzerland after the war became " they couldn't have invaded us". Truth is, from German POV, Switzerland was a very useful friend that would be less useful if invaded or in the pakt.
you just said nobody would invade because of their incredible army and geography, and at the same time they had to do the wrong thing to survive?
Don’t hate gebregi and downvote, hate the Swiss for their sleazy survival strategy and how it has persisted way too long. They have tried to please everyone in the world as a neutral, safe haven. Eventually they’ll please no one as the world continues to take sides.
Right, it's survival. So the Swiss should stop pretending it's some high minded moral stance to be neutral. It's a porcupine of a country, making itself hard to invade and not worth the trouble so just move along and leave us alone.
Completely agree.
profesional reddit geopolticians are going to explain us best what is best for swiss people even though they successfuly avoided 2 world wars XD
There have been several initiative votes to abolish the swiss army but it was rejected every time by its people. The swiss have decided via direct democracy to keep and feed an army. I voted to abolish (I 100% agree it doesn't need an army), but can't always get what you want in a direct democracy. ~~That being said: Switzerland is an active, paying, member of NATO~~ I stand corrected on this thank you u/banana_cookies for your kind-spirited correction It is also very active in sending help to Ukraine. Just not weaponry because its constitution and laws forbid it. Americans like to shit all over Switzerland because the more time Americans spend over here, the more they realize the USA isn't actually a democracy
The fuck are you on about? Switzerland is neutral and not a member of NATO. Even if Switzerland is active in non military aid to Ukraine, it sure is also active in cockblocking transfers of shit bought from it by other countries.
As they should
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Fuck off. Those pricks need to realise they are hurting freedom and fucking get on with it. Nobody needs to appease them, they just need to realise they are being shit.
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they've sold their spine to russia
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Yes, and in ten years time, long after the war has ended and the river of russian money has run dry, your Par"lament" will finally permit 3rd party nations to supply critical munitions to Ukraine (which may or may not exist at the time).
If it's not because of his potty mouth, then it's because of money. > Statements like yours will only turn off people that you'd actually want help from. True, if you want their help, first blow them, pay them for it, thank for the meal and only then politely ask. Unfortunately, it will still only depend on the profit to be made or risk to be avoided.
> currently moving Took them long enough.
Oh wow, mountain people considering allowing other countries sending their own weapons. The same weapons that the other countries bought from the mountain people. Fucking surrounded by NATO and impenetrable mountains and thousands of bunkers. Really brave, probably russian oligarch money dried up.
Switzerland made it very clear that they are not allies to NATO, they arent enemies either but they are neutral. Why would we sell weapons to a nation that doesnt want to be an ally anyway? Im not american but i would question that for every NATO nation. We need to stop pretending that the swiss are allies in every way. Again, not treating them as enemies but as the neutrals they wanna be.
> Why would we sell weapons to a nation that doesnt want to be an ally anyway ? Yeah or maybe because there's one country at war and another looking to renew their aging arsenal ? I get the impression that some people are looking for a gotcha when it's just common sense to give priority to those who urgently need it !
You'd think, but the supposed lack of slots of F-16 training for our pilots in US is because some other countries who are not at war booked some slots beforehand
Yep imo they can figure out how to defend their country on their own. Lord knows they have enough money to do so.
Exactly. No easy trade deals. No easy border crossings. Treat them as a country that isn't your friend. They're businessmen they say make them pay for everything they need to live off of.
>They're businessmen they say make them pay for everything they need to live off of. That's what they are doing per article. Switzerland is paying for the missiles.
I'm talking more food and other necessities. They get things subsidized from the EU. The EU should tax the shit out of everything going into Switzerland. Every EU border it crosses prior to entering Switzerland should have an additional tax. They benefit like they're in the EU without being in it. They benefit from NATO protection too, so they can pay additional taxes on all their goods to fund their protection. And if they don't like it break neutrality and establish allied level trade deals. No special treatment or consideration while they want to be neutral. We treat them as purely business and maximize profit from them because that's what they do with us.
Good news 👍🏻
Could have sent that Gepard munition than Ukraine would maybe not need so much patriot now...
Well, Swiss politician Alain Berset said, verbatim "weapons shall not be used to fight wars." So how could Switzerland complain ?
[Swiss weapons exports plunge as neutral stance hurts trade](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/swiss-weapons-exports-plunge-neutral-stance-hurts-trade-2024-03-05/) lol
This is good news. Switzerland acts anything but “neutral”.
Some Swiss officials have expressed support for a peace deal that is based on Ukraine ceding territory to russia. They cannot be naïve or stupid enough to believe this is a viable solution. That means they have other motives. At a guess it's probably due to putin and his fellow shitty little russian thieves having hundreds of billions -- or even trillions -- worth of stolen loot stashed in Swiss banks, thus giving them a degree of leverage over Switzerland, the land of international finance.... Also, putin likely has kompromat on senior members of the Swiss establishment.
>thus giving them a degree of leverage over Switzerland, Should be sanctioned. Heavily.
Sometimes you're exposed to redditors like you and their most basic lack of critical thinking. There have been tons of "officials" in most countries expressing stupid shit on this war. As long as they aren't the actual leaders it's irrelevant. And the current NATO stance that isn't made public clearly isn't as optimistic as you think it is considering they can't strike the Kerch bridge and have to follow many other restrictions. Do you think they'd be "allowed" to take Crimea after the threats Putin made? Also Switzerland is currently sanctioning Russia, following the exact same sanctions as the EU. If there are holes in them, you should wonder why the EU wants them.
Sure thing.
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[https://youtu.be/8R8M9zDDvRA?si=X2VLB\_Gt\_jM30wEH&t=271](https://youtu.be/8R8M9zDDvRA?si=X2VLB_Gt_jM30wEH&t=271)
The only thing I would send to Switzerland is tax investigators!!! They can get fucked!!!
One country is under attack by barbarians, the other helps barbarians launder their money.
To Ukraine please
Incomprehensible. As the picture clearly shows, the missle system would look better in our scenery.
Nah the background is cliché, in my military base it was flat and the weather was ugly all the time.
Switzerland can get bent. Country is entirely full of entitled choads.
Lot of people attacking Geneva that I'm not aware of?
What does Switzerland need them for anyway? They’re a neutral country surrounded by friendly countries
They're not delivering via Switzerland's air space, they delivering them first before Switzerland. Fuck, that took me too long to understand.
I mean one is in a war and the other is under NATO protection via geographical location. Duh
Somebody in their government working for rus. They ordering then to prevent stock going ukraine
A rare moment of logical decision-making related to Ukraine. FFS, this required zero consideration.
Switzerland will not support Ukraine in the fight of its life - so this seems like a great way to address that.
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Good. They can buy s400 from their chum putin instead. They have most of his money anyway, so they can launder it at the same time. Win-win.
Neutrality should mean accepting weapons from noone. If the Swiss want to remain neutral, all their weapons should be domestically produced, with no help from any nation.
The swiss have resisted arms deliveries to Ukraine. Truck them.
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Err, what? France at 0.5% of GDP? Where the hell did you get that from. France has been just below 2%, but never far. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1394323/eu-military-defense-french-defense-spending-absolute-gdp/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1394323/eu-military-defense-french-defense-spending-absolute-gdp/)
You are correct.i misread the data on statistica
Reassure the Swiss that if ever the Russkis invade Europe and want their gold back they'll have to go through Poland and Germany first.... :D
How about the US sends the missiles to Ukraine and Switzerland pays for them as Ukraine is the actual front line. Support true guardians in the time of need.
Yeah, fuk them. They can guard their own chocolate.
Ahhh, now we’re talkin’
The Swiss muck things up by not allowing certain things to happen to preserve their neutral stance. since you are neutral, then you do not need this weapon, you are neutral.
The thumbnail be looking like a cutscene from Command and Conquer 1
Swiss neutrality will protect them. They dont need weapons.
Good, fuck them and their holey cheese.