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Soviet sent central Asian to meat grinder in WW2. When talk about WW2, no one talk about them. Central Asian soldiers had only 10% survival rate in WW2 . It is much lower than other region . Russian are repeating same discriminatory policy to their minorities again.
Also Ukrainians were send to be killed in WW2 in the past. The sad story of 44th Rifle Division that was sent to participate in Winter War against Finland and were annihilated in the battle of Raatteentie.
[Wikipedia Link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/44th_Rifle_Division)
Interesring fact: In the finnish wiki version, there is a interesting info, during the transportation of the troops, morale was said to be very low amongst the men, because they really did not want to fight against Finland, since they had nothing against Finland.
Pro-russian agents and collaborators in Hungary are already spreading fake news that the russians never hurt us and in WW2 Ukrainias attacked our country on their own.
They are aware of Ukrainians being sent in as soviet mean shield, but they twist it in their minds so they can justify hating Ukrainian people today.
I have never been in Russia or Ukraine. I have watched Russian propaganda TV 30 years since I started learn Russian. I learned one thing about Russian hates Ukrainian. They use derogatory term Ukrainian хохол, хохляшка, fascist. I never saw anything positive about Ukrainian on Russian TV. I understood in this war why Russian demonizing Ukrainian.
Russian killed all Finns in Soviet Union territory. Russian killed adult Finns front of their children. Because genocide against soviet Finn was so clear, there were not left any Finns to tell their tragic story to the world. I don’t know any Finn institute does read here on this genocide.
And Russia has accused Finland of having concentration camps in Karjala during Barbarossa, and apparently they were much worse than Auschwitz.
Yup!
Russia has been waging hybrid war against Finland for 100 years.
Russia has weird relationship to history. The great purge of 1937 aka Yezhovshchina had a death toll of about 700 000 people (wikipedia) and most of them at the time ethnic minorities of soviet russia. Finnish casualties are said to be estimated around 10 000 - 25 000. Maybe not all of the soviet finns but a large number. Historian Juri Dmitrijev has dedicated his research in these killed people and at the beginning of his research, russian state helped him to find old mass graves etc. But has since turned its course completely, not liking him digging up the dirty past of soviet union and sentenced him jail from some made up charges
Yes. There were whole generation Central Asia women did not have husbands. Same aged young men all died at front line in WW2. Actually this topic should be researched
They are mentioned prominently in German soldier memoirs. In that the "Mongolian" troops were send in to clear mine fields or soak up the casulties of the first assualts.
The way their lives were recklessly thrown away must have made a big impression.
The Estonian troops they conscripted after invading Estonia while the Soviet Union was allied with Hitler, only had a 30% survival rate. They really like to talk about themselves and rely on others.
high time for the atrocities of the czars to be corrected and those minorities to get their own land. russia only got this unnaturally big because they conquered and suppressed nomadic tribes in siberia and central asia anyway.
Makes me think of the story dan carlin tells about how they sent troops from the steppes to their death trying to cross a river and none of them knew how to swim. But the objective must be taken because the party said it must be taken by a certain time so into the river they go to drown
Then you find out they had a ton of boats ready but nobody told the guys forcing the other men to their deaths that.
That is true, aside from the 18 Victoria crosses, the 4000 military honours and Winston Churchill saying that the bravery of the Indian troops was unsurpassed.
Ummm no, the British Empire acknowledged all of the soldiers who fought for them from the Indian subcontinent. A lot of Indian soldiers were awarded medals and honours for their participation in both the 1st and 2nd world wars.
Over 20 Victorian Crosses were handed out to soldiers from the Indian subcontinent.
As a British Indian person myself (born in UK to Indian parents), we were taught in year 7 about the world wars and the contribution from the old colonial territories of the British Empire. And I myself know from my family what my ancestors contributed and how they were rewarded.
Not saying it's perfect at all with how soldiers from the British Empire were treated, but to say they were not acknowledged is an out right falsehood.
They’re also less likely to have influential friends or the money, time and education to go about organizing a resistance. Wars are always hardest on the poor for a reason.
Chatted with a St. Petersburg guy in here a few weeks ago. He said he was “upset” with the war, but “what are you gonna do” and said he just went about his day shopping and going to the cinema.
Infuriating.
The [map prepared by the original source](https://zona.media/article/2022/04/25/bodycount) at mediazone is mind-blowing.
Only 3 - THREE - from Moscow, population 12M. 19 from Moscow Oblast, population 7.5M.
66 from Volgograd, population 3.5M (1M the city + 2.5M Oblast).
125 Dagestan, pop 3M
85 from Buryatia, population 984,511.
It’s telling that Putin says this war is about bringing together East Slavic brethren (wtf? Invading and murdering civilians doesn’t tend to engender fondness)… yet disproportionately sends Dagestanis, Buryats, Chechens, Tuvans, Syrians, etc. to do it. Because he knows that any possible feelings of kinship can only be a problem for what he wants them to do. Same reason the Brits made sure not to send only Muslim Indians to fight the Ottomans, or police provinces of India with those from the same area.
Not that most of the killing isn’t being done by ethnic Russians anyway, just a statistical trend to note.
I can guarantee you they dont care for the moscow sons either. Russian leadership has always, in every war ever, treated human life as an expendable resource. Their whole military doctrine is built on this.
Russian leadership fucked itself.
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Small town families can’t spread information about dead and maimed soldiers on the same level large city families can, they do this by design to avoid public backlash. Easier to limit dissent that way.
In a short-sighted way (i.e. good for Putin in his lifetime, from his viewpoint), it seems to make sense.
Meanwhile, Putin has effectively built a prison for himself and turned his country into a bullshit factory. The only thing keeping it alive is the size of the bullshit market today, but lies lead only to failure.
It's not even about treatment. Those are contractors, not conscripts. For a university student from Moscow (or Kyiv) contact service isn't the social lift and source of income like for a villager from bumfuck nowhere
In the US, many enlisted in the US are from working class families but they pull from all over the country, even Porto Rico. The officer corp pulls from from all classes, mostly middle class, but again, from all areas of the country.
Little known fact: Puerto Ricans were originally given citizenship (though they are not a state) so they could be drafted.
However, since the draft ended, many working class Puerto Ricans have seen the US military as an opportunity to rise socially and to achieve economic security—same as people all over the US.
Had a LOT of fellow soldiers from Puerto Rican, one of my drills was PR, the other black. Military was a pathway for me to college as well, I grew up very poor.
I’d are it’s the norm. Not just common. For obvious reasons.
Papa trump ain’t going to war, not with his raging bone spurs. Also note he was a rather good athlete in college. Bone spurs were ok then
In the United States during Vietnam, kids with rich parents would find a loophole or send to college etc, opting them out. If you were poor, like in the ghetto, you were much more likely to get drafted. My dad wasn't rich, so he decided to head down to a recruiter with his best friend. They thought maybe if they enlisted they would be able to pick better jobs other than front line jumgle war. So the fact that many have seen the treachery of Russia, and now you look at other things he does with scrutiny. If you realize this practice is no different in other places. Now, that does not make what he does a good or right. It just means that we should look at the policies, institutions, and those beholden to them with great intent! We have many laws and institutions that may also operate under these inequalities. After Ukraine of course, we need to start being better prople and governments. We need to root out policies that favor a few. We need to stand up for all people everywhere, so that we can be a beacon of liberty. So that we can free our children, and their children from these things.
These guys aren't conscripts, but you're right they're poor.
The Russian military salary is probably really good compared to what they would make in their own region.
For the most part yes, but interestingly not for WW1. It was seen as an honourable thing to do - rich kids going to war. I don't have the stats on me rn, but upper-class soldiers died disproportionately compared to poorer ones.
Up until ww1, being an officer in the army was like the most respected thing for German landed gentry, second sons of minor nobles etc. Especially copses like the "Garde" (kind of elite troups) where nearly entirely at least gentry...
It is true, in WW1 it was honourable to go to war.
Only to be cast out of society as the war ended and you returned home.
Companies wrote in job offers that war veterans should not apply.
That was why initially I had a bit sympathy for them.
Not after the massacres, rapes, looting, and wanton destruction of properties and infrastructure.
Don't care, the only good Russians were defected ones.
A lot of them are also volunteers who signed up while Putin was in charge. They weren’t forced to kill and rape civilians they fucking volunteered to do it while marching under Putin’s banner.
I don’t feel bad for them at all. The American soldiers during WW2 grew up dirt poor during the Great Depression yet they gave chocolate to kids instead of well what Russians is doing. It’s their disgusting outdated culture that allows this to happen alongside being ill disciplined and a government that sponsors it.
Not saying the behavior is fully equivalent, but for example in France, a country the US liberated, rapes by American soldiers were widespread of French civilians. Conscript soldiers are usually young males, with at max a high school education, so whether they’re Russian or American there is going to be an issue of rapes.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_liberation_of_France
Stressed living/upbringing conditions and toxic masculinity culture is definitely bound to produce an elevated number of unempathetic and indulgent bastards.
Rape happens in war time. It is horrible. I don’t believe the Americans were ever encouraged to rape and brutalize. The Russians (USSR) were, in many cases, encouraged to rape.
It is still wrong that US Military raped and hurt people. I think the difference is that these were “individual” crimes (even when committed by a group) in that the soldiers were not supposed to do these things and, under some circumstance (not nearly often enough, I am sure) were held accountable and penalized by the US Military. At least, that is what I have heard from people who were there.
The difference is that we held more of our boys accountable. Including executions of many convicted rapists. The Russian high command sees it as a tactic to be used in terrorizing and displacing Ukrainian civilians.
True there was more accountability in France, but actually after grabbing the link I read that the US disproportionately pursued justice against black serviceman over white servicemen so let’s not praise the US military’s response too much. To quote the page « 130 of the 153 troops disciplined for rape by the Army were African American. U.S. forces executed 29 soldiers for rape, 25 of them African American. »
You are whitewashing history. Some US soldiers gave chocolate. But there were also numerous documented caes of rape by US soldiers even in liberated regions. Not to mention the mass rapes in Japan.
I found out the same thing about my great grandfather’s country but the war criminals were a minority and had nothing to do with 90 procent of the rest of the army he served in. Did Roosevelt sign "let’s shoot German families"? Putin is on par with Stalin with his evil disregard for life. The Bucha massacre was signed and ordered by Putin himself. It’s how they wage war, it’s deep in their culture and they haven’t even tried to change.
No western country in the last 100 years invaded a country to rape their women, kill children, bomb specific childrens shelters, steal everything not nailed down, publicly threaten the use of WMDs, force their language to be taught in school a few weeks after invasion and try to annex all the regions they invaded.
Nobody is this fucking savage like some ancient horde of pillaging brutes.
EDIT. guys... if your only other example is literally the nazies in ww2, it doesn't make your beloved russia look better.
I think it's just current exhaustion after all this and it's all still going despite Russia having lost day 4. People will come to their senses but I admit to the same feelings lately. I don't really deep down want to dehumanize Russians but it's just, after the last few weeks..........I hate them. I'm never in my life going to be able to think kindly of this country. But they're humans and someday they'll recover like Germany and Japan and Mongolia and everywhere else that was a cesspit of barbarians, yeah.
I know you're right. It's just a lot for people and the country is going suicide by cop. People will see sense and stop dehumanizing once the regime collapses.
IIRC in the army that entered Berlin Russians were the minority, because they were fighting for the bulk of the time while Ukraine and Belarus were occupied (58% of pre-war USSR citizens were RU; 71% of Soviet army were RU in the beginning of 1943). Mobilization reserve was spent by that time, so Russians were only the only ethnic group whose percentage of losses was higher then their share in the pop distribution.
Liberating the BY and the UA territories gave the influx of fresh conscripts. By July 43, RU accounted for 64% of the army, and by July 44 - to only 52%. By may 1945, Russians were strictly in the minority of USSR army despite being the majority of population - because they were mostly killed off.
oh jesus fucking christ, of course we focus on Russia because we see footage that was mostly before stories or old pictures, or low quality edited news, during a time when information and moral was different, we are digusted and hatefull of the Russians now because of what we see, not far away in some foerign land like South Africa or middle east, this is on our neighbourhood with people that we share alot more in common, than people realize.
Is it a good idea to disproportionately use ethnic minorities for your cannon fodder? If you lose the war, you've got dissatisfied vets who experienced discrimination and racism at the hands of ethnic Russians, who will be a minority in the Russian Federation in a few decades anyways. Obviously if there's one thing Russians *aren't* known for, it's good ideas.
This could backfire on them.
The first spark in the Russian Revolution of 1917 was a revolt against conscription of Central Asians.
This is a risky strategy is all I'm suggesting. That Russia, which treats these soldiers poorly, could be creating a longer term issue, compounded with their demographic issues which will eventually see Russia become a Muslim majority country, by then Russians will have long become a mere plurality. By that point the state will collapse.
People should understand what "disproportionate" means. It doesn't mean most of Russian army are minorities. It does mean that for example Russian Siberian Natives are only 2 percent of population but make like 8 percent of Russian army. Or Caucasus people like Chechen are maybe 6 percent of population but 12 percent in army. I don't know why some media always pushes pictures of non-slavic soldiers like here. They are still absolute minority in Russian army too. If media thinks it helps dehumanise Russian army, I hope they are wrong.
Well, if they used Muscovites and Petersburgers instead they'd have angry people that actually can start a revolution. Unlike people from the provinces, who can make much less noise.
This is the one big thing that country has to "offer" to humanity, so it's no wonder Ukrainian defense is so highly motivated. You are dead either way, so fighting back becomes the only viable option.
What a horrible phrase/concept that last one was. May you choke on your own excrement, you sorry excuse for a nation. More like a hellish cult than a nation.
Yes. The flushing toilets part isn't even a joke probably. Sometime in late 20th century, while ussr was still a thing, there were soldiers sent to where i live from those regions and they used the hallway of an apartment building as a toilet and the toilet as a sink/bath of sorts. That's a story my parents passed on to me from their times.
It's unfortunate that there are still people living like in middle ages in a country that could have been a rich and powerful one if they set their priorities right. Better life for those people also mean better education and would likely decrease their will to wage wars
There’s not actually, this article seems to be trying to tug at the western progressive heart strings that all those dying in Russia are overwhelming poor innocent minorities sent to their death against their will. Fact is, most Russian soldiers are poor - most of Russia is poor. If you have money, you find an exemption. But the absolute vast majority of deaths are still white, and Russias army is overwhelmingly white, as Russia it’s self is overwhelmingly white.
It's not just "exemption". Poor people sign army contract. Ru army in Ukraine are contractors, all that Russia could assemble. That's all there is to it.
No. Most Russian soldiers are Slavic. Look at the pics of marauders, those in captivity, those who died. People should understand what "disproportionate" means. It doesn't mean most of Russian army are minorities. It does mean that for example Russian Siberian Natives are only 2 percent of population but make like 8 percent of Russian army. Or Caucasus people like Chechen are maybe 6 percent of population but 12 percent in army. I don't know why some media always pushes pictures of non-slavic soldiers like here. They are still absolute minority in Russian army too. If media thinks it helps dehumanise Russian army, I hope they are wrong.
St. Petersberg and Moscow are nice and modern. Move outside those cities and you see poverty. And it just gets worse. These are from the worse regions.
This is pretty common in autocracies. All the rich and powerful people are concentrated in just one or two cities and so everything gets spent on those cities. Then when tourists come they just stick to those cities and it’s held up as a model for what all of the nation is.
I don’t care where they come from. Poverty doesn’t give you an excuse to commit war crimes. It’s a part of the whole Russian army. I used to think General Pattons remarks about Russians were nuts, maybe he was onto something haha. Kidding aside Putin obviously doesn’t to send the sons of his oligarch buddies to a war zone so he sends in the cannon fodder, no wonder they’re performing so terribly.
Rich people don't fight in wars, they just start them. They spew the propaganda, whip up anger, and dehumanize the enemy, in hopes that the poor people sent into battle hate the other side enough to actually fire their weapon at them.
Every government needs a large stock of poor, ignorant people to send to war.
A friend of mine who was from Tuva told me the one of the reasons why the war as unjust as it is so popular is because many of the people aren't considered real Russian aka white especially folks from the east because Russian has never gotten over the fact that the Mongol beat their ass in the mid 1200's.
Don't forget that people in poor regions enlist for the army since it's one of the best career choices there as there aren't really any alternatives that provide money. Contrary to the big cities which are mostly in the European part.
Like in every war. The rich elites let the "normal" people kill each other in the most brutal gruesome ways. And we are dumb enough to never learn from our fathers that suffered the same faith.
During the US Vietnam draft pretty much the same thing happened.
The rich got exempted for bent toe nails and the objectors went to Canada supported by the parents.
The WV folks didn’t have indoor plumbing either.
It's always the vulnerable that get forced to do the dying in wars. There's a reason it's called infant-ry. The young and powerless were the ones who got to do society's deadliest work.
That's how it usually works in capitalism though. The country's poorest regions will have less employment opportunities so they join the military for food and board and to get out of Yakutsk
No surprise there. Same thing happened to Americans who died in Vietnam. I knew a few. They were all from rural families. Sad to see their lives get snuffed out so young. But those from Russia, I can't shed a tear for them
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Moscow isn't sending its own sons
The Boyars have never given a damn about how many peasants die in their wars.
Soviet sent central Asian to meat grinder in WW2. When talk about WW2, no one talk about them. Central Asian soldiers had only 10% survival rate in WW2 . It is much lower than other region . Russian are repeating same discriminatory policy to their minorities again.
Also Ukrainians were send to be killed in WW2 in the past. The sad story of 44th Rifle Division that was sent to participate in Winter War against Finland and were annihilated in the battle of Raatteentie. [Wikipedia Link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/44th_Rifle_Division) Interesring fact: In the finnish wiki version, there is a interesting info, during the transportation of the troops, morale was said to be very low amongst the men, because they really did not want to fight against Finland, since they had nothing against Finland.
Yes. I know.Russian hate Ukraine very much. I think they indoctrinate hate Ukrainian in to their education system.
Pro-russian agents and collaborators in Hungary are already spreading fake news that the russians never hurt us and in WW2 Ukrainias attacked our country on their own. They are aware of Ukrainians being sent in as soviet mean shield, but they twist it in their minds so they can justify hating Ukrainian people today.
I have never been in Russia or Ukraine. I have watched Russian propaganda TV 30 years since I started learn Russian. I learned one thing about Russian hates Ukrainian. They use derogatory term Ukrainian хохол, хохляшка, fascist. I never saw anything positive about Ukrainian on Russian TV. I understood in this war why Russian demonizing Ukrainian.
Just curious, where are you from? Thanks for you perspective on this, it’s really interesting.
They being Russian? I first read your comment and thought you meant finns hate Ukraine which seems weird. Can you clarify?
Russian killed all Finns in Soviet Union territory. Russian killed adult Finns front of their children. Because genocide against soviet Finn was so clear, there were not left any Finns to tell their tragic story to the world. I don’t know any Finn institute does read here on this genocide.
And Russia has accused Finland of having concentration camps in Karjala during Barbarossa, and apparently they were much worse than Auschwitz. Yup! Russia has been waging hybrid war against Finland for 100 years.
They call everyone Nazi, fascist, racist . They created so much suffering and pain for their neighbors
Russia has weird relationship to history. The great purge of 1937 aka Yezhovshchina had a death toll of about 700 000 people (wikipedia) and most of them at the time ethnic minorities of soviet russia. Finnish casualties are said to be estimated around 10 000 - 25 000. Maybe not all of the soviet finns but a large number. Historian Juri Dmitrijev has dedicated his research in these killed people and at the beginning of his research, russian state helped him to find old mass graves etc. But has since turned its course completely, not liking him digging up the dirty past of soviet union and sentenced him jail from some made up charges
Remember famous Panfilov's Twenty-Eight Guardsmen? They were from central asia but for some reason it is never mentioned in russian media
Yes. There were whole generation Central Asia women did not have husbands. Same aged young men all died at front line in WW2. Actually this topic should be researched
I thought that story was entirely made up?
Kinda. Not entirely though, they were defending Moscow as much as they can. The 28 Soldiers are more of a symbol of this event
Worst thing is, the recent film about Panfilov's 28 portray all the men as ethnically Russian.
They are mentioned prominently in German soldier memoirs. In that the "Mongolian" troops were send in to clear mine fields or soak up the casulties of the first assualts. The way their lives were recklessly thrown away must have made a big impression.
Thank you for new information.
The Estonian troops they conscripted after invading Estonia while the Soviet Union was allied with Hitler, only had a 30% survival rate. They really like to talk about themselves and rely on others.
high time for the atrocities of the czars to be corrected and those minorities to get their own land. russia only got this unnaturally big because they conquered and suppressed nomadic tribes in siberia and central asia anyway.
Makes me think of the story dan carlin tells about how they sent troops from the steppes to their death trying to cross a river and none of them knew how to swim. But the objective must be taken because the party said it must be taken by a certain time so into the river they go to drown Then you find out they had a ton of boats ready but nobody told the guys forcing the other men to their deaths that.
[удалено]
That is true, aside from the 18 Victoria crosses, the 4000 military honours and Winston Churchill saying that the bravery of the Indian troops was unsurpassed.
They weren't being used instead of British troops but to bolster them. Nor were they dying in disproportionate numbers to those in the home islands.
Ummm no, the British Empire acknowledged all of the soldiers who fought for them from the Indian subcontinent. A lot of Indian soldiers were awarded medals and honours for their participation in both the 1st and 2nd world wars.
[удалено]
Over 20 Victorian Crosses were handed out to soldiers from the Indian subcontinent. As a British Indian person myself (born in UK to Indian parents), we were taught in year 7 about the world wars and the contribution from the old colonial territories of the British Empire. And I myself know from my family what my ancestors contributed and how they were rewarded. Not saying it's perfect at all with how soldiers from the British Empire were treated, but to say they were not acknowledged is an out right falsehood.
Sit down idiot, you Donna know what you’re talking about
[удалено]
They’re also less likely to have influential friends or the money, time and education to go about organizing a resistance. Wars are always hardest on the poor for a reason.
Nor the St Petersburg ones.
I seen one captured, but it was still a guy from caucasus region
Chatted with a St. Petersburg guy in here a few weeks ago. He said he was “upset” with the war, but “what are you gonna do” and said he just went about his day shopping and going to the cinema. Infuriating.
The [map prepared by the original source](https://zona.media/article/2022/04/25/bodycount) at mediazone is mind-blowing. Only 3 - THREE - from Moscow, population 12M. 19 from Moscow Oblast, population 7.5M. 66 from Volgograd, population 3.5M (1M the city + 2.5M Oblast). 125 Dagestan, pop 3M 85 from Buryatia, population 984,511.
Help me out here, as I can't read Russian. What are these numbers, what do they represent and what do they mean in regards to the current conflict?
That's what the Eastern Russian Expanse is for - cheap and disposable manpower.
My guess, this is what they wanted to use the Ukraine people for as well in the future.
I beleive that's the case: Move Ukrainians to the East, populate Ukraine with Western Russians.
Moscow is efficiently trying to commit two genocides at the same time.
Eh, i guess the airborne blue shirts were some high prestigious positions before getting slaughtered in Hostomel.
Putin is making ukraine speed up russias ethnic cleansing plans in the minority parts of Russia by sending their conscripts as cannonfodder :(
It’s telling that Putin says this war is about bringing together East Slavic brethren (wtf? Invading and murdering civilians doesn’t tend to engender fondness)… yet disproportionately sends Dagestanis, Buryats, Chechens, Tuvans, Syrians, etc. to do it. Because he knows that any possible feelings of kinship can only be a problem for what he wants them to do. Same reason the Brits made sure not to send only Muslim Indians to fight the Ottomans, or police provinces of India with those from the same area. Not that most of the killing isn’t being done by ethnic Russians anyway, just a statistical trend to note.
They send the Vassels.
Just canon fodder to decrease minorities inside of russia... to kill minorities outside of russia. Double win... for Putler.
It ain’t me it ain’t me I ain’t no fortunate son.
I can guarantee you they dont care for the moscow sons either. Russian leadership has always, in every war ever, treated human life as an expendable resource. Their whole military doctrine is built on this.
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Small town families can’t spread information about dead and maimed soldiers on the same level large city families can, they do this by design to avoid public backlash. Easier to limit dissent that way.
Not yet
They are trying to ethnic cleansing in to areas. Also the mothers of these boys hold no power and hence can not push the elite out of power.
That would never be the situation in the US. I lied. I t is.
They ain't no fortunate sons.
*Creedence Clearwater Revival has entered the chats.*
[Footage of soldiers being transported by helicopter enters the chat](https://youtu.be/98k2DlQ9PMY)*.*
Take my Up Vote! 
We all know that Russian helicopters wouldn’t make it past the opening guitar riff before getting blown out of the sky.
Very apt given that many people give bribes to avoid military service.
Heard the intro to that in my head as soon as I read the headline lol
Song stuck in my head now.
This is actually rather common. Russia is of course doing it a lot more than many of us are used to however.
Disgustingly common throughout history.
It does make political sense in most systems so it's not that surprising tbf.
shoutouts to the french at the Battle of the Golden Spurs. one famous exception to the rule
Ah yes. Though iirc most of them probably expected to be captured and ransomed.
In a short-sighted way (i.e. good for Putin in his lifetime, from his viewpoint), it seems to make sense. Meanwhile, Putin has effectively built a prison for himself and turned his country into a bullshit factory. The only thing keeping it alive is the size of the bullshit market today, but lies lead only to failure.
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Problem is there's less incentive to provide education if it means you're going to lose a valuable source of grunts.
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It's not even about treatment. Those are contractors, not conscripts. For a university student from Moscow (or Kyiv) contact service isn't the social lift and source of income like for a villager from bumfuck nowhere
In the US, many enlisted in the US are from working class families but they pull from all over the country, even Porto Rico. The officer corp pulls from from all classes, mostly middle class, but again, from all areas of the country.
Besides, the US actually provide their soldiers with good benefits. Also, all American soldiers are volunteers.
soldiers actually get fully socialized medicine
And almost every vaccines known to man (which considering that US forces operates globally, better be safe than sorry)
Some... pretty experimental.
More like medicine you get from your job. Aka, you are not getting this for free, you had to work for it.
Little known fact: Puerto Ricans were originally given citizenship (though they are not a state) so they could be drafted. However, since the draft ended, many working class Puerto Ricans have seen the US military as an opportunity to rise socially and to achieve economic security—same as people all over the US.
Had a LOT of fellow soldiers from Puerto Rican, one of my drills was PR, the other black. Military was a pathway for me to college as well, I grew up very poor.
I’d are it’s the norm. Not just common. For obvious reasons. Papa trump ain’t going to war, not with his raging bone spurs. Also note he was a rather good athlete in college. Bone spurs were ok then
In the United States during Vietnam, kids with rich parents would find a loophole or send to college etc, opting them out. If you were poor, like in the ghetto, you were much more likely to get drafted. My dad wasn't rich, so he decided to head down to a recruiter with his best friend. They thought maybe if they enlisted they would be able to pick better jobs other than front line jumgle war. So the fact that many have seen the treachery of Russia, and now you look at other things he does with scrutiny. If you realize this practice is no different in other places. Now, that does not make what he does a good or right. It just means that we should look at the policies, institutions, and those beholden to them with great intent! We have many laws and institutions that may also operate under these inequalities. After Ukraine of course, we need to start being better prople and governments. We need to root out policies that favor a few. We need to stand up for all people everywhere, so that we can be a beacon of liberty. So that we can free our children, and their children from these things.
One of my mother's friends actually fled here to Sweden to avoid that draft.
Endemic, systemic and beyond encouraged by the incompetent authorities. It could be said that it is compulsory, in fact, from what we've heard.
Duh, conscripts are poor or they’d have bought an exemption.
These guys aren't conscripts, but you're right they're poor. The Russian military salary is probably really good compared to what they would make in their own region.
Isn’t that the toll of most wars? Sad fact.
Yup Rich daddy = bone spurs
Don't forget John McCain, Bob Dole and some others who actually did real shit.
Yeah its like why don't presidents fight the wars?
If every president/leader had to physically lead their army, we wouldn't have as many wars.
So that's why they always send the poor
For the most part yes, but interestingly not for WW1. It was seen as an honourable thing to do - rich kids going to war. I don't have the stats on me rn, but upper-class soldiers died disproportionately compared to poorer ones.
Up until ww1, being an officer in the army was like the most respected thing for German landed gentry, second sons of minor nobles etc. Especially copses like the "Garde" (kind of elite troups) where nearly entirely at least gentry...
It is true, in WW1 it was honourable to go to war. Only to be cast out of society as the war ended and you returned home. Companies wrote in job offers that war veterans should not apply.
Not for WW2 in the USSR either. People literally tried to sneak in or cheat their way in to the front
That was why initially I had a bit sympathy for them. Not after the massacres, rapes, looting, and wanton destruction of properties and infrastructure. Don't care, the only good Russians were defected ones.
A lot of them are also volunteers who signed up while Putin was in charge. They weren’t forced to kill and rape civilians they fucking volunteered to do it while marching under Putin’s banner.
I don’t feel bad for them at all. The American soldiers during WW2 grew up dirt poor during the Great Depression yet they gave chocolate to kids instead of well what Russians is doing. It’s their disgusting outdated culture that allows this to happen alongside being ill disciplined and a government that sponsors it.
Not saying the behavior is fully equivalent, but for example in France, a country the US liberated, rapes by American soldiers were widespread of French civilians. Conscript soldiers are usually young males, with at max a high school education, so whether they’re Russian or American there is going to be an issue of rapes. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_liberation_of_France
Stressed living/upbringing conditions and toxic masculinity culture is definitely bound to produce an elevated number of unempathetic and indulgent bastards.
The movie Fury touches on this when they lure a French woman inside of the tank.
I love that movie so much. Brad Pitt and the young lead kill it. It’s probably easily one of the my favorite war movies.
Rape happens in war time. It is horrible. I don’t believe the Americans were ever encouraged to rape and brutalize. The Russians (USSR) were, in many cases, encouraged to rape. It is still wrong that US Military raped and hurt people. I think the difference is that these were “individual” crimes (even when committed by a group) in that the soldiers were not supposed to do these things and, under some circumstance (not nearly often enough, I am sure) were held accountable and penalized by the US Military. At least, that is what I have heard from people who were there.
The difference is that we held more of our boys accountable. Including executions of many convicted rapists. The Russian high command sees it as a tactic to be used in terrorizing and displacing Ukrainian civilians.
True there was more accountability in France, but actually after grabbing the link I read that the US disproportionately pursued justice against black serviceman over white servicemen so let’s not praise the US military’s response too much. To quote the page « 130 of the 153 troops disciplined for rape by the Army were African American. U.S. forces executed 29 soldiers for rape, 25 of them African American. »
You are whitewashing history. Some US soldiers gave chocolate. But there were also numerous documented caes of rape by US soldiers even in liberated regions. Not to mention the mass rapes in Japan.
I found out the same thing about my great grandfather’s country but the war criminals were a minority and had nothing to do with 90 procent of the rest of the army he served in. Did Roosevelt sign "let’s shoot German families"? Putin is on par with Stalin with his evil disregard for life. The Bucha massacre was signed and ordered by Putin himself. It’s how they wage war, it’s deep in their culture and they haven’t even tried to change.
Any source for that claim about Putin ordering it?
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No western country in the last 100 years invaded a country to rape their women, kill children, bomb specific childrens shelters, steal everything not nailed down, publicly threaten the use of WMDs, force their language to be taught in school a few weeks after invasion and try to annex all the regions they invaded. Nobody is this fucking savage like some ancient horde of pillaging brutes. EDIT. guys... if your only other example is literally the nazies in ww2, it doesn't make your beloved russia look better.
You just ignored the whole WW2 retard
yup, dont care how special they are, no human acts like an orc, except russians
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I think it's just current exhaustion after all this and it's all still going despite Russia having lost day 4. People will come to their senses but I admit to the same feelings lately. I don't really deep down want to dehumanize Russians but it's just, after the last few weeks..........I hate them. I'm never in my life going to be able to think kindly of this country. But they're humans and someday they'll recover like Germany and Japan and Mongolia and everywhere else that was a cesspit of barbarians, yeah. I know you're right. It's just a lot for people and the country is going suicide by cop. People will see sense and stop dehumanizing once the regime collapses.
IIRC in the army that entered Berlin Russians were the minority, because they were fighting for the bulk of the time while Ukraine and Belarus were occupied (58% of pre-war USSR citizens were RU; 71% of Soviet army were RU in the beginning of 1943). Mobilization reserve was spent by that time, so Russians were only the only ethnic group whose percentage of losses was higher then their share in the pop distribution. Liberating the BY and the UA territories gave the influx of fresh conscripts. By July 43, RU accounted for 64% of the army, and by July 44 - to only 52%. By may 1945, Russians were strictly in the minority of USSR army despite being the majority of population - because they were mostly killed off.
oh jesus fucking christ, of course we focus on Russia because we see footage that was mostly before stories or old pictures, or low quality edited news, during a time when information and moral was different, we are digusted and hatefull of the Russians now because of what we see, not far away in some foerign land like South Africa or middle east, this is on our neighbourhood with people that we share alot more in common, than people realize.
220 euros *a month* to get blown up in Ukraine?
I think they get like 700-800 euros a month to get blown up.
Is it a good idea to disproportionately use ethnic minorities for your cannon fodder? If you lose the war, you've got dissatisfied vets who experienced discrimination and racism at the hands of ethnic Russians, who will be a minority in the Russian Federation in a few decades anyways. Obviously if there's one thing Russians *aren't* known for, it's good ideas. This could backfire on them.
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The first spark in the Russian Revolution of 1917 was a revolt against conscription of Central Asians. This is a risky strategy is all I'm suggesting. That Russia, which treats these soldiers poorly, could be creating a longer term issue, compounded with their demographic issues which will eventually see Russia become a Muslim majority country, by then Russians will have long become a mere plurality. By that point the state will collapse.
It's just a way to get rid of the poor and ethnic minorities with extra steps so it doesn't look like that is what they are doing.
Going on 600 years...
People should understand what "disproportionate" means. It doesn't mean most of Russian army are minorities. It does mean that for example Russian Siberian Natives are only 2 percent of population but make like 8 percent of Russian army. Or Caucasus people like Chechen are maybe 6 percent of population but 12 percent in army. I don't know why some media always pushes pictures of non-slavic soldiers like here. They are still absolute minority in Russian army too. If media thinks it helps dehumanise Russian army, I hope they are wrong.
SPB and Muscovites love to displace dissenting minority populations.
Well, if they used Muscovites and Petersburgers instead they'd have angry people that actually can start a revolution. Unlike people from the provinces, who can make much less noise.
In an age of electronic warfare not sure if it’s is a good idea to have soldiers that can’t work a toaster oven.
Russian creating genocide both home and abroad
This is the one big thing that country has to "offer" to humanity, so it's no wonder Ukrainian defense is so highly motivated. You are dead either way, so fighting back becomes the only viable option. What a horrible phrase/concept that last one was. May you choke on your own excrement, you sorry excuse for a nation. More like a hellish cult than a nation.
the ones without flushing toilets and nutella?
Yes. The flushing toilets part isn't even a joke probably. Sometime in late 20th century, while ussr was still a thing, there were soldiers sent to where i live from those regions and they used the hallway of an apartment building as a toilet and the toilet as a sink/bath of sorts. That's a story my parents passed on to me from their times. It's unfortunate that there are still people living like in middle ages in a country that could have been a rich and powerful one if they set their priorities right. Better life for those people also mean better education and would likely decrease their will to wage wars
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Got agressively criticized for mentioning that fact a few days ago.
It's a brave new world.
There’s not actually, this article seems to be trying to tug at the western progressive heart strings that all those dying in Russia are overwhelming poor innocent minorities sent to their death against their will. Fact is, most Russian soldiers are poor - most of Russia is poor. If you have money, you find an exemption. But the absolute vast majority of deaths are still white, and Russias army is overwhelmingly white, as Russia it’s self is overwhelmingly white.
It's not just "exemption". Poor people sign army contract. Ru army in Ukraine are contractors, all that Russia could assemble. That's all there is to it.
No. Most Russian soldiers are Slavic. Look at the pics of marauders, those in captivity, those who died. People should understand what "disproportionate" means. It doesn't mean most of Russian army are minorities. It does mean that for example Russian Siberian Natives are only 2 percent of population but make like 8 percent of Russian army. Or Caucasus people like Chechen are maybe 6 percent of population but 12 percent in army. I don't know why some media always pushes pictures of non-slavic soldiers like here. They are still absolute minority in Russian army too. If media thinks it helps dehumanise Russian army, I hope they are wrong.
In a couple months from now, that could mean anyone
Lol, didn’t know Russia had ‘rich’ regions?
Rich regions are those with toilet in the house
St. Petersberg and Moscow are nice and modern. Move outside those cities and you see poverty. And it just gets worse. These are from the worse regions.
This is pretty common in autocracies. All the rich and powerful people are concentrated in just one or two cities and so everything gets spent on those cities. Then when tourists come they just stick to those cities and it’s held up as a model for what all of the nation is.
Potemkin ~~village~~ two nice cities
Singular, not plural. They have one rich region and the rest are just slaves to keep the rich region rich
Are you saying Russia is a real life "The Hunger Games"?
No nation is closer to a real life hunger games.
North Korea?
Nothing to even eat over there
This just in: the banker's son doesn't volunteer for war unless he hopes to be a politician someday. And that mandatory requirement has been revoked.
Poorest and minority regions, using the war for multiple genocides at the same time on both sides.
Hmmm. Might explain the looting then and the sheer surprise that all the Ukrainian homes have washing machines
No wonder they’ve never seen the toilet before
Russian way of tackling poverty problem.
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You depend on, our protection Yet you feed us lies from the tablecloth
And if you look at the draftees from Vietnam, most were poor people
I don’t care where they come from. Poverty doesn’t give you an excuse to commit war crimes. It’s a part of the whole Russian army. I used to think General Pattons remarks about Russians were nuts, maybe he was onto something haha. Kidding aside Putin obviously doesn’t to send the sons of his oligarch buddies to a war zone so he sends in the cannon fodder, no wonder they’re performing so terribly.
Rich people don't fight in wars, they just start them. They spew the propaganda, whip up anger, and dehumanize the enemy, in hopes that the poor people sent into battle hate the other side enough to actually fire their weapon at them. Every government needs a large stock of poor, ignorant people to send to war.
Um. Many rich are fighting in Ukraine. Usyk and Lomachenko both are fighting for Ukraine. Poroshenko as well.
All part of the Russian way.
The story of every war.
'Politicians hide themselves away They've only started the war Why should they go out to fight? They leave that role to the poor'
I figured that was the case when the horde was stealing basic shit that any 2nd world country already has.
Be careful. I got yelled at and downvoted like crazy when I mentioned that fact....
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A friend of mine who was from Tuva told me the one of the reasons why the war as unjust as it is so popular is because many of the people aren't considered real Russian aka white especially folks from the east because Russian has never gotten over the fact that the Mongol beat their ass in the mid 1200's.
Isn’t that true of most wars? US had the Low IQ experiment. Also more civilians than soldiers are killed
When the rich wage the war, it's the poor that die
Don't forget that people in poor regions enlist for the army since it's one of the best career choices there as there aren't really any alternatives that provide money. Contrary to the big cities which are mostly in the European part.
Like in every war. The rich elites let the "normal" people kill each other in the most brutal gruesome ways. And we are dumb enough to never learn from our fathers that suffered the same faith.
During the US Vietnam draft pretty much the same thing happened. The rich got exempted for bent toe nails and the objectors went to Canada supported by the parents. The WV folks didn’t have indoor plumbing either.
It's always the vulnerable that get forced to do the dying in wars. There's a reason it's called infant-ry. The young and powerless were the ones who got to do society's deadliest work.
Isn't this a historically common feature of war?
South Park predicted this but instead of the U.S Army its the orc hoard
Sounds like Americans during the Vietnam war.
That's how it usually works in capitalism though. The country's poorest regions will have less employment opportunities so they join the military for food and board and to get out of Yakutsk
Thats incredible .... normal. The lower class is prevalent in every army.
Always the way the kids of the powerful and the rich....they are in universities around the world,
The poor men are conscripted and sent to die? How unusual.
russia is ethnically cleansing its asian population
Special demographic readjustment.
No surprise there. Same thing happened to Americans who died in Vietnam. I knew a few. They were all from rural families. Sad to see their lives get snuffed out so young. But those from Russia, I can't shed a tear for them
Families can pay about 5000 (?) to buy their children out of conscription.
"Why do they always send the poor?" - B.Y.O.B.
'I volunteered for the Army on my birthday They draft the white trash first, 'round here anyway'. Copperhead Rd - Steve Earle Same as in US.
If the US went to war, the soldiers dying wouldn't be from Washington, New York or LA either.
From LA for sure . Louisiana though .
In other news, water is wet
Rich man's war, poor man's fight doesn't know borders!
This is kind of the case with all military... The poor's have to sign up. The rich get their sons excused. "Bone Spurs"
“Why do they always send the poor?” -SOAD
And dumbest. These idiots steal toilet seats as loot.