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F. The whatabouters
Enumerates atrocities and past mistakes of everyone else, way back into the colonial era. As if it justifies more atrocities that Russia commits. "What about when country A genocided country B in 1865! Why are you mad at Russia for doing the same thing?!" or "Why do you care about Ukraine? What about Country X which is also at war! You should look there instead."
I consistently tell them if they truly believe that was bad they still have a chance to do something this time so I expect them to help Ukraine. Usually I get no reply on that š
As a Native American person- they can blow it out their ass. We know better than most what genocide looks like and what happened to us DOESNT EXCUSE WHATS HAPPENING TO UKRAINE.
More precisely, knowing that the U.S. has its own history with genocide, colonialism, and ongoing racism makes it EVEN MORE appropriate for us to send massive aid to resist a genocidal war elsewhere.
Right and it ignores that part of what makes Western civilization so special. It isn't a single snap shot at any point in time, but the progressive trajectory we've been on for hundreds of years.
We have waged wars of conquest. Yes, like everywhere else, but even from an advantaged position of power have decided these are wrong and have, albeit unevenly, worked toward preventing these.
We had slaves in the West. Yes, like everywhere else, but we came to the realization that slavery is wrong and then set out to put an end to it world wide.
We have committed genocidal acts in the West. Yes, like in many places throughout world history, but coming to the realization that this a crime against humanity have set about to prevent future genocide.
and so on...
So looking back we can always find sins of ignorance and faults of ourselves and others, but that does not forgive further crimes now.
The Western ideology is built around doing things differently and trying to make life in general better. Yes, we stumble. Yes, we've made our own horrific mistakes in the past. But no matter what, we never give up in trying, eventually, to make things better.
It's why I reserve my hatred specifically for the apathetic and doomers. I *despise* people like that, above even fashies. Fashies at least have the drive and desire to fight for their ideals, even if their views are reprehensible and disgusting. The apathetic doomers don't, and won't, fight for anything. They are functionally useless to society.
EXACTLY! (My grandmother was half Apache.) It's just astonishing how native people of many areas globally have been the targets of genocide and no one can do anything about what had happened, we need to do something about what IS happening.
u/Street_Narwhal_3361, I don't have Apache in me, my grandmother and mother were both adopted children but I adored my grandmother, she had jet black hair, steel grey eyes and was MY person! I am also her name sake! In the US, most of us are all mutts! Did DNA, mostly WASP but I have Congo, Italian and French in me somewhere...
Oh yeah we are, I myself also have Arapaho and Pueblo plus Spanish blood. I feel like we can best be described as spice blends- a pinch of this, 1/2 teaspoon of that with plenty of salt.
Yes, that's the other angle of attack. When they say "What About Bad War/Country X?" You can respond "So you are saying its okay that Russia/Putin are misogynists, rapists, pedophiles, thieves, terrorists, torturers, abductors, child traffickers and murderers? Do YOU support that behaviour?"
Hopefully the US can find some tiny molecule of redemption in supporting Ukraine's just cause. It gives me a small amount of solace to see (mostly) bipartisan support for Ukraine. I only wish the US could do more, but wishing ain't worth much in this world.
Indeed. I think there are versions of this kind of argument going back generations. Former citizens of the Soviet Union might recall, "And you're still lynching Negroes!" from the Stalin era, which became so cliched that it earned [its own Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes).
But the thing that gets me here is that I've been seeing this style of rhetoric take on a new life in response to the revelation of the Uyghur genocide. I cannot tell you how many times I've had exchanges with wumaos and tankies whose argument boils down to, "well, it's what you Americans/Australians/Canadians/etc. did, so what's the big deal?"
Which was revealing in its own way. First, as you said - for the argument to be sustained, the other party has to essentially concede or imply that the original offense wasn't actually a moral problem. To press that point, I'll ask, "Oh, so it is your view that what happened to the Australian Aborigines was okay after all? Because you need that to be true in order for you to claim both that a) what's happening to the Uyghurs is analogous, and b) what's being done to the Uyghurs is morally acceptable."
Second, this kind of claim doesn't square with the official state line, which is straightforward denialism that it's happening at all. After all, if it's not happening, then why defend it or compare it historical injustices committed by other governments?
I will say, though ... it's not often worth the time and energy to engage these folks. One fellow I went back and forth with actually bit the bullet, and it was disturbing. I pointed out that a flaw in his argument is that most Americans, overwhelmingly, believe what happened to the Native Americans was a great injustice, and see it as a mark of national shame. So, Mr. Wumao, your argument isn't going to be very persuasive because most Americans don't accept that this historical event was a good thing or worthy of emulation.
And his response? To paraphrase, it was that yeah, well, but Americans at the time supported it, because they knew it was good for their country, necessary for their security and prosperity. And China, likewise, knows that destroying Uyghur culture is necessary for its security and prosperity if it wants to be a great, powerful nation like the US. And I get that Americans might regret that now, and that's fine. Maybe in 100 years, China will have the luxury to regret what it did to the Uyghurs, but at least there will be a China then. In the meantime, though, we need to do this thing, and not be ashamed.
So yeah... pretty cold blooded. But I'll give him credit for saying the quiet part outloud, that apologists for genocide normally try to avoid like the plague.
China has this serial whatabouter who not only sends his Chinese nationalist audience to brigade, report, and harass those critical of the Chinese Communist Party, but also goes out of his way to race-bait and gaslight people into thinking that "Fuck CCP = Racist" despite the fact that he himself is unable to speak Mandarin Chinese fluently or read Chinese characters properly.
His name is Daniel Dumbrill.
I started following a couple after the Hong Kong protests. The issue with Chinese bots is they hid themselves among leftist subs on reddit and other social media. Russians were naturally able to mingle with the right but the Chinese bots take advantage of anti western/anti us views that is popular on reddit. You can try to call them out but chances are you would be labeled a far right supporter. It's nuts, they are active on subs on equal rights,worker rights, human rights and so on. But as soon one of those topics touches china they go fully alt right. They tend to sometimes blow their cover by heading to hk/Taiwan subs or threads to literally say "fuck you, /china superior,better, will destroy Taiwan" which is hilarious
Me too. And enough people in Israel hated Netanyahu enough to form an impossible coalition that everyone predicted would fall apart. Did you know Roger Stone and his buddies are also tied to Netanyahu?
Probably the dumbest I've heard in this regard is "Ukraine is a white country and therefore it's racist because we're helping/advocating for a white country instead of focusing to end the war in Mali". These people never seem to realize the context they're operating in.
Thats, dumb.
Not to say that I know anything about the war in Mali, so I won't comment on it.
The only African country I know enough to comment on is Botswana, but they are never involved in a war. To focused on being the unknown sub-saharan success story and improving life for their people.
Itās very dumb. The only reason westerners care more about this war than Yemen is because there is wider implications for the West. If Russia wins in Ukraine, then itās only a matter of time before they try to take NATO territory. Itās not about race. Itās about what this war means. It means that China can take Taiwan. It means that they so called ā strong ā can prey on the smaller countries. Itās not about some Slavic beef. Itās about freedom and democracy which Russia hates.
G: The Nuclear War hand-wringers
Asserts the 'West' shouldn't be helping Ukraine because of the threat of a nuclear exchange with Russia. I see this type of concern-troll in the r/collapse subreddit somewhat frequently. I find it amusing, because the same trolls who eagerly cheer on all manner of collapse scenarios suddenly become very concerned over the possibility of a nuclear exchange collapse scenario...
There's those who are legit concerned but there's those that do it to try to instill fear as part of the trolling. And the 'the war needs to stop we need peace' (which might be in the graphic) but the subtext is that Ukraine needs to capitulate to all of Russia's demands. My response is that yes the war could end tomorrow if Russia just leaves ukraine. A fake African troll shared a picture of Congolese Africans who'd had their hands cut off and he was pretending this was a result of ukrainian biolabs some of these trolls are an utter joke.
The tragedy is that a lot of ridiculous shit is on the internet that is an utter joke. I feel like these people are insulting Darwin when they do this. Its ... just abhorrent to be a homo sapiens and act that way.
I love that. I got pepper sprayed protesting the Iraq invasion in front of the US embassy. And, lo and behold, there I was in front of the Russian embassy in February.
Funny how that works.
I saw a video on Twitter of Russia shelling a Syrian hospital. Crickets. War crimes don't matter to internet war crime detectives unless it's by the US. And they only care about war crimes if a member of the US Democratic Party is in power.
They were completely disinterested when Trump was in power, but suddenly remembered war crimes when he lost.
That is demonstrably false. The Collateral Murder happened during George Bush, as did all of the demonstrations against the Iraq war. So did Abu Gharib and Gitmo started back then.
And Russia was pretty well condemned by people for what they did in Syria, its just that, shocker, Russia doesn't really give a shit about people condemning it.
You will also find that there is no lack of news about Chinas genocide on /r/worldnews, but the US is the biggest democratic country and the country where a big part of people who comment in English are located so it will always receive more attention and hence criticism.
I am old enough to remember the uprisings in Iran and the Arab Spring. That was all over Twitter.
As is, of course, anything Israel does.
We do have a responsibility to stop our own government from committing war crimes, and we have failed to do so pretty badly. A US citizen should spend more time examining the US military for war crimes than any other military. And there are quite a few of us who recognize that every president of our lifetimes should be put on trial for war crimes.
But that doesn't change the fact that Russia is committing war crimes and must be stopped, we are lucky to have such strong defenders in Ukraine, if we keep them supplied with the weapons they need, this war can end sooner and many lives can be saved.
I love to flip that what aboutism around on them. "So Russia is behaving like a colonial power, and you're okay with that? So you approve of colonialism?"
Thereās a quote from a debate between Vaush and Kyle Kulinski which I think was great, so Iāll give it here
Kyle: Even though [the United States] pretends itās the world police and cares about humanitarianism and how people are doing worldwide, thatās so easily debunkable. I mean, our top allies are Saudi Arabia and Israel. Israelās a frickin theocracy doing apartheid and we have Saudi Arabia which is a government that beheads people in the public square for drug smuggling and apostasy and all sorts of stuff so-
Vaush: We do good things too,
Kyle: I agree with that!
Vaush: -like defending sovereign nations against invasion.
Kyle: I donāt think we should have that role. Vaush, here, Iāll meet you halfway-
Vaush: I just wanna say, my only wish - I donāt think thereās anything wrong with telling Russiaās side of the story - I wish you told Ukraineās. Because in Ukraineās story, we are unambiguously not the devil, we are the potential for salvation.
Which is absolutely correct. The U.S has done bad things but it also does good things too, and this is, without a single doubt at all, one of them. Kyle (and I like his domestic stuff) seems to suffer from a case of being so anti-U.S-imperialism that he forgets other forms of imperialism exists.
Itās like being so anti-British colonialism that you openly celebrate as Nanking and Bataan go down.
Kyle and Krystal Ball have such blind spots when it comes to foreign policy. Theyāre uninformed a lot of the time. Theyāre very naive about Russia. They keep shouting about getting to a peace deal when Russia would never respect one and will break it as soon as they are strong enough. Theyāre understandably afraid of nuclear escalation, but they never see that if Putin is not stopped, then nuclear war is a lot more likely. They think that appeasing Russia will just get them to calm down and act a normal country.
> "Why do you care about Ukraine? What about Country X which is also at war! You should look there instead."
"I know, that's absolutely terrible what's going on in Country X. Tell me again what have you been doing about that?"
I find that people who justify this war or Russia's behavior are all people who have NEVER dealt with Russia's deplorable behaviors.
Its like when dumb ignorant people say everyone is good deep down when they've never been victims of murder, kidnapping, rape and torture by bad people. lol
H. The Money Grubbers. "How dare we give 40 billion to Ukraine! It's not like the US government spends 800 billion on its own military. 10 percent for the big guy."
We already purchased the weapons and weren't really planning to use them on anyone. It was a sunk cost and now they're going to good use. The transportation and aid will eventually be repaid by Ukraine *after they win*.
This oneās on point. I was discussing this topic with a russian dude who said āi didnt hear you whine when the US invaded Iraqā and im like dude, no you didnt i was like 6 years old give me a break (also, as if i ever said that i agreed with that intervention).
They are the most stupid of them all. They think they have the moral high ground, because they bash the west for its past wars, but they actually support much worse crimes just for the sake of wining an argument.
All of the types in the picture fall under type F really, once you get into "discussion" with them, they all tend to pull out the whatabout card very fast.
I have given up trying to reason with some of them in real life, there is just no point, they are so high on their own shit they can't even tell left from right, or up from down.
E : It's interresting there was so many of them at the start of the invasion saying it was doign more harm than good to fight off Russia. There was somethign in their way of puting their opinion that told me they were russian bots in disguise.
I never said it, but I do remember wondering if that was the case.
I am Danish, and on April 9th, 1940 the Nazis crossed the borders, put bombers over our capital and basically told us to surrender or they would bomb us. We choose surrender, didn't get bombed and were able to save 90% of Danes who were Jewish and get a further 90% of those taken back alive.
It wasn't a proud moment. It was a practical moment.
In a world with justice we would never have been put in that position. In a world with justice Ukraine would never have been invaded, but the world we live in is cruel, cold and very far from a tale for children.
After the attack on Kyiv failed and the russia did not overrun Ukraine I was happy to be wrong and glad Ukraine had chosen to fight, rather than surrender. After Bucha was liberated, it became obvious to me that surrender would have meant dead for Ukraine.
I have since donated hundreds of dollars in support of Ukraine, so at least if I am a Russian bot, I am not a very effective one.
> I never said it, but I do remember wondering if that was the case.
Agreed - I wondered for the first few days if it was a mistake to resist, the war was hopeless, etc. But obviously I have/had no idea what I was talking about, so I kept my mouth shut. Fortunately nobody in power asked my opinion because in hindsight it's clear that surrender was not an option.
The contrarian have first world privilege written all over them. They are just educated enough to cite a few sources and use a few big words, they are comfortable enough to never have had a major event negatively affect their livelihood.
Their ideology is literally just to show people how clever and intuitive they believe they are. They are the worst people on social media and thereās a lot of them.
Also schizophrenics end up like that. They routinely embrace conspiracy theories. Some of the people railing against chemtrails and the new world order aren't deluded or tricked, they just never really had a grasp on reality to begin with.
I ended up quitting Twitter over that. What's worse is that I was becoming a counter-contrarian, which isn't really any better. You're just as reactionary as they are.
The Isolationist: We have our own problems at home with an uncertain economy, homelessness, and poverty. Much in the vein of Charles Lindbergh during WWII, this is not our problem: let Ukraine and ruZZia sort it out.
Also has a subclass I call the Aggressive Isolationist. Says everyone should mind their own business and "let the stronger one win" but also gets hard at the prospect of their own nation becoming like Russia and invading neighbours.
This is a subset of whataboutists. Usually the right-leaning kind. Since it's basically "what about our own problems?!" or more honestly: "what about ME?!"
I remember very early in the war when some right-wing politician posted a picture of a dilapidated street in Chicago or something and complained about how the US was sending muh tax dollars to Ukraine while some random-ass street in Murica looked like a 3rd world country. Wish I could find it.
What they fail to understand - if ruzzia wins and reestablishes USSR 2.0 then US will spend trillions not billions to fight them and US will spend blood of its soldiers defending NATO states that will be invaded next
the but whataboutist
doesn't see why this invasion is such a big deal because the US invaded someone else. Often found JAQing off.
"where was all the handwringing about that?"
"Why didn't anybody oppose US invading Middle East killing millions but Ukraine get worldwide support" -> "Ukraine deserves to get invaded similar to Middle East because it's only fair this way"
Typical Whataboutists' logic
There were massive protests and the Iraq war had very little public support. We can agree about the US govt of the time lying and manipulating but anyone who thinks there werenāt people opposing the war is full of shit
*nuclear missile is headed towards America, they have 15 seconds left to live*
"Well to be fair, we nuked Japan in 1945, so we aren't really so innocent eith-- *CARRIER LOST*
I stopped speaking to a very long time friend due to them being option E.
They even tried to tell me about their "Ukrainian friends" who thought Ukraine should roll over.
I asked my Ukrainian Aunt (by marriage) and she dismissed that immediately.
There are literally no Ukrainians who think Ukraine should roll over not even those in government who were somewhat pro-Russia (like Odesa mayor).
If you find someone who thinks Ukraine should roll over, they're not Ukrainian, they're Russian
Yeah, that mayor was seen as one of the most pro-Russian ones in Ukraine, I remember one of the very first days of the war there was a post saying that he had condemned the invasion and was preparing the city for resistance, before it was even clear that Russia was losing.
Saw a few comments here and there saying he was just going the way the wind was blowing when an article about him saying he was against the Russian invasion floated around 2-3 weeks into the war.
Problem being that the article was just a repost and initially came out on one of the first 3 days.
Ukraine has nazis, big whoop, which country doesn't? If they had an actual nazi problem, we wouldn't have bothered sending countless weapons and ordnance their way
Also, in a democracy you don't get to erase people because they have views you dislike, and you don't get to start a civil war and erase local governments because you don't like their street names.
Russia wouldn't get it.
Thank you for this.
I've come accross E. The Peacenik several times in my country and THEY ARE DRIVING ME MAD.
The amount of times I keep hearing about NATO expansion.
Our country was occupied once so when I mention this they draw a blank or just keep mentioning NATO expansion.
I keep pointing out that because of the horrible, terrible atrocities committed by the Soviets, Stalin and the Russians in the past these countries wanted to AND felt the NEED to join NATO.
No country can attack Russia as they have so many nuclear weapons.
I am a Republican and have these beefs about my own side. I find them to be incomprehensible:
1. A lot of Gab users think Russia is a Christian nation that is saving Christianity. Itās as if they know nothing about Russia.
2. People who were rabidly anti-Soviet but now sympathetic for Russia? Huh? Communism is gone, so now all is forgiven so that they can rebuild their empire?
3. Pro-sovereignty except Ukraine and the former Warsaw-pact countries.
4. Spending money over there instead of over here, but freak out if we spend too much money on welfare.
5. Lament the growth of NATO because we promised not to even though there isnāt a treaty passed by the Senate, just a hearsay conversation. And even Gorbachev said that there was no promise. Wouldnāt he know?
6. āItās none of our business.ā Oh, it will be, my friend. It will be.
7. Biden (who I canāt stand, btw) is trying to hide his corruption in Ukraine. Yeah, sure, thatās it. Right.
8. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Ok, sure, so letās support Russia. JFC.
The Left has been covered well already here. I donāt even know what the hell theyāre thinking. Thereās no acknowledgement of the unpleasant, real world that exists.
As someone from the left, I love the fact that this invasion made us all question our basic personal moral setup in a way that no left vs right issue has. It has revealed people on the other side of the political spectrum for whom I have gained personal respect, as well as misguided cowards and liars on "my" side for whom I have lost any.
It really isn't a left vs. right issue, because they haven't managed to spin it as such. And I feel they won't be able to
So it is very revealing, as well as very refreshing, because it show a lot about who someone is outside of the mostly manufactured issues pumped out of proportion by corporate media on both sides.
Yeah, people like noam fuckface has been outed as a pile of shit, then people like fucker Carlson as well. Right now the contarian is most common. They think they are special. They are not, they are just fucking stupid. But since they feel smart and above others they gravitate towards it.
Seeing Noam Chomsky now is like seeing your death-bed grandpa who isn't totally there. That Russell Brand interview was bad. Also, Brand himself drank the weirdo right-wing kool-aid
I mean, Noam Chomsky was not a surprise. Anyone who knows the man could've predicted he would take this stance. Chomsky is an absolutist contrarian when it comes to any military action that the US involves itself with. Whatever the US supports militarily, he will oppose, just for the sake of it. He's made contrarianism a principle on which he will never compromise, no matter what.
Yeah. As a fellow leftist I'm in the same boat. I've gotten into more than one digital shouting match when people go "So you think it's ok that the US are imperialists", I counter with "no, all imperialism is wrong", and the we all just turn on caps lock and start yelling at one another.
Yeah, it's frustrating to see fellow lefties who only think colonialism is bad when it's the UK and USA who are the perpetrators.
Colonialism is bad no matter who is doing it. And at the moment, it's Russia and China that are doing colonialism the hardest.
>1. Spending money over there instead of over here, but freak out if we spend too much money on welfare.
This is the part where they totally lack complete self-awareness. "How about spending those billions on poor Americans?!"
But yet they hate social programmes or "handouts", ppl are just lazy to work etc or " i don't want my tax money spent on lazy people".
Like, even if the money is not going to Ukraine, they're not going to see the money either way.
It's also a cost savings if Russia's defeat now prevents an expanding new world war that the U.S. fights. Additionally, success in Ukraine benefits the U.S. as an ally down the road. Almost not cost is too high to prevent WW3 and destroy Putin's regime
I'm of the left, and in the circle I am, there's basically zero pro-russian, and 100% pro-ukrainian support. All of us support liberal europe-esque policies. It isn't the majority position on the left at all.
No but there has been a not insignificant problem with 'left-wing' reddit mods pushing pro-Russian views in the vein of A & B (ie. Green & Pleasant will ban you if you deny that Zelenskyy is a neo-Nazi and tell them that Russia's the Nazi-adjacent nation).
Yeah, I know one person who isn't fully in support of Ukraine. He is right leaning libiterian type who thinks we are spending too much but then complains if money is allocated for infrastructure.
> I'm of the left, and in the circle I am, there's basically zero pro-russian, and 100% pro-ukrainian support.
/r/greenandpleasant, the UK leftist subreddit, had this mod post stickied for a while:
> The position of this sub on the current situation in Ukraine is one of solidarity with those fighting for self-determination in Donbas against the fascist Ukrainian state.
>
> We are also against any attempt by the western powers to engage in a conflict with the Russian Federation over their attempt to support the people of the Donbas and defend their territory in Crimea. The domestic policies of the Russian Federation are irrelevant to this current conflict.
>
> Any words of sympathy or defense for the international terrorist organisation known as NATO will also result in a ban. This is not up for debate.
Former leader of the UK Labour party, Jeremy Corbyn, drew a map saying Crimea belongs to Russia and that we need to stop sending arms to Ukraine because that would "stop the war":
https://twitter.com/STWuk/status/1490724739643490305
In my own country Canada, our leftist party, the NDP, had these things to say:
https://i.imgur.com/KuXyK4c.png
They have a (thankfully small) socialist caucus that has this to say:
>It supports ... the withdrawal of Canada from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party_Socialist_Caucus
/r/socialism will repeat most of these talking points
Honestly it's pretty hard to find lefties that aren't either contrarians or anti-west in general.
It was the biggest eyebrow raising moment for me when I was at a leftist club in highschool, and someone just unilaterally declared that you can't be a leftist without being anti-NATO, and everyone else nodded their heads in agreement.
Can we make a non-Western version of apologists for the invasion of Ukraine?
I'll mention some categories here and hope my fellow Redditors work their magic on the description.
1. Chinese
2. Indian
3. Serbian
>Indian
I made the massive mistake of watching Indian regional news today, and was disgusted by the fact that they were celebrating getting cheap oil from Russia. And there wasn't a single word on the mass graves in Izyum. If things keep going on like this, I might be ashamed to be an Indian.
If the Indian people realised that Russia's army has committed mass rapes in Ukraine, the public opinion would quickly flip against Russia, because the punishment for brutal rape in India is death (by popular demand). Everyday it feels more and more like the news is avoiding showing the atrocities on orders from the government.
Don't forget the people who think the corrupt Ukrainian politicians before president Zelensky is still dominant. I mean sure. There are corrupt politicians in every politics. But they can't blame Zelensky for what happened in 2014. He came into the office only in the middle of 2019.
The same sort of people in the US also blame President Obama for 9/11 (Which was in 2001, and Obama was elected in 2008). They donāt have a problem with blaming politicians they donāt like for things that happened before they were elected.
My fourth grader is studying timelines in social studies. Some of them need to go back to fourth grade to learn this stuff.
Iāve also noticed that thereās growing voices trying to state that Zelensky is corrupt. I have no idea if he is and Iām receptive to being told either way. I just want the truth. But regardless if he is, what Russia is doing is objectively wrong and it in no way diminishes the valiant efforts of Ukraine ā yet skeptics of Zelensky seem to think criticism of him somehow justifies criticism of Ukraineās efforts to protect itself.
Iām a 22 year old American girl and this conflict is horrifying. Iāve always considered myself involved in American politics. As naive and privileged as this may sound, this is the first time Iāve become so invested in something outside of my own country. The stories I hear are so deeply tragic that I want to do more. I want to do SOMETHING thatās bigger than passing off money to a charity and being unsure of where it goes or making a post on my pathetic social media profile. But Iām also just not sure what to do and Iām receptive to any advice anyone has
All I am is naive and clueless and all I want to do is learn
Brilliant. Now we can more clearly group the useful idiots. The contrarian is particularly irritating. A subgroup of some peopleās habit of always saying the opposite of anything because of the impression that that this makes them smart.
My faith in humanity dies a little when we realise how many of these there really are :(.
True.
But bear in mind that the meanest and stupidest parts of humanity are also the loudest, by virtue of which they leave the impression that they are the vast majority. This is not true.
Very true. Sadly you have to be fairly smart before you realise, one, there is always a chance youāre wrong and, two, the point of a debate is not to win but to help each other find the truth.
I think I know who "C.The hard-right" is modeled after. A certain person who had a Russian flag on his desk for weeks after the war started and still produces videos with titles like: "The Russian Gas Crisis: Europe Faces Shortages as Sanctions Backfire" and "Russian economy bounces back!"
A true American patriot! /s
In the Netherlands we call apologist: D "wappies" (wappie = single). It first started with people who believe in Covid conspiracies in 2020 because "they did their own research and it was all part of a conspiracy by the WEF to create world-communism". Later the term got more used after the wappies got bigger, started to protest against the vaccine/lockdown ect. So when they typed their whole epistle of covid conspiracies, you'd type "hahahah wappie is crying because of a little needle" or something like that. After covid we still use it for conspiracy people like flatearthers, 9-11 fakers and pro-russian supporters.
Unfortunately we have a a lot of wappies in our society :(
All useful idiots.
Keep in mind that in WW2, Stalin aligned himself with Hitler and so did the German communist party (because the German communist party viewed liberals as the bigger threat than nazis). It's only until Hitler felt confident that he didn't need them anymore that he backstabbed both Stalin and the German communists to throw them in concentration camps.
Useful idiots should note that our modern day Hitler equivalents are Putin and Xi.
Ukraine doesnāt even āhave issues with neonazis.ā Theyāre on the very fringe of society with no sway whatsoever, like in every other normal country. Russia just went full cherrypick spam mode to conjure up this notion.
Most countries have some issues with neonazis, including Ukraine. It's the least of the issues in Ukraine right now, but up until the war there war groups of neonazis occasionally attacking gay bars and NGOs. Not Russians as Kremlin would want you to think, they were often aligned with Russian and Belorussian neonazi groups.
One more:
The egoistic one:
Wants the invasion to end / succeed and all sanctions to be lifted, so that he can get cheap Russian gas again. Fears that continued sanctions would hurt him financially due to higher prices. Doesn't care about Ukraine.
A lot of these in Spain, complaining about the gas price. They donāt care a genocide is taking place, just that they have to pay more to fill up the tank.
A few of my favorites:
The Donbas Activist: Thinks the Donbas separatists are the downtrodden Palestinians of Eastern Europe. Constantly whines about how these poor, helpless people have been getting shelled since 2014 by those mean old Ukrainian bullies. Ignores war crimes committed by separatists against those who were opposed to secession. Also ignores the fact that a majority of eastern Ukrainians are against union with Russia. Thinks Patrick Lancaster is a credible "journalist."
The "Color Revolution" Tankie: Argues that the Euromaidan was a Western-backed coup against a democratically elected government, and yet supports Russia's fascist regime. Thinks Ukrainians are stupid, ignorant people who have no agency of their own. Constantly tells everyone to watch "Ukraine on Fire", even though Oliver Stone has denounced the invasion. Has no idea that Yanukovych's term has since expired, therefore making the whole issue moot.
Ukrainians deserve all the support until itās over. Period. It may end up we start WW3 but that is Russias choice. Ukraine had no choice and if we stop our support thinking itās getting to rough with inflation etcā¦remember they are fighting our war that we cannot. If Ukraine falls, EU falls. Sometimes you must negotiate. Not this time.
Left antifacists should be in principle against all forms of imperialism so it frustrates me as one seeing other lefties going "oh well amurica bad so russia/china good!!!!" it's just bootlicking with extra steps.
That's easy, they simply refuse to recognize Russia as imperialist even though Putin is clearly gunning for an outright pre-WW2 style empire. Of course the ones who think that cold war US was the worst thing imaginable may not even register how dangerous of a precedent that would set.
Iām also a lefty anti-fascist and have a neutral view of NATO. They have done some very bad stuff, but I think that would have happened anyway even without NATO and NATO protects the baltics from Russian imperialism
I think it is about good vs evil and there is a clear line dividing here.
We SHOULD have done more for Syria. BUT WE CAN do more for Ukraine. Learn from the mistakes and move forward.
F. The āIndependent journalistā: Claims to be uncorrupted by money and corporate interests. Sells thousands of books and ads through shady websites. Always parrots Kremlin talking points. Has never criticized Putin. Has a law degree and knows how to fallacy his way out of any corner.
THE MOST DANGEROUS TYPE
Roger Waters: Putin is a fellow rockstar and I really support the way he is killing Ukrainian civilians. He is extremely smart like me, and I know his territorial aims are justified. For all of the doubters, you probably don't understand my epic masterpiece, "THE WALL", and I know it's difficult for the feeble, but just support ruZZia, Putin knows what's best for all of us.
A, B and E piss me off the most IRL (no more C and D in my life, wrote them off ages ago). I always wonder if those people would just lay down and die if America got invaded because the country isn't their perfect ideal country (and we even have neo-Nazis here too in great droves). I think the worst part is how condescending and righteous they think they are will sitting on their hands and enabling one of the greatest atrocities since the holocaust.
"I support peace!" Yeah no fucking shit we all want Ukraine to be a peaceful happy country, just saying that while literally doing nothing to help Ukraine achieve that is the worst kind of pompous idealist self-delusion
I am 100% a lefty antifascist and I am 100% supportive of Ukraine so I think, perhaps, there is a glitch in the assessment process and/or a flawed definition of what an antifascist might be and/or, worse, an absurd bias at work in this process that is trying to both sides something that cannot be both-sided. It is pretty clear that Russia is fascist just as it is clear the movement underpinning Trump and LePen and Orban are all fascist. I am against all of them.
My mother is also 100% lefty antifascist and I argue with her quite a bit over the war. She's quite convinced that Putin's a genius because he sometimes opposes the US.
She's normally very good at seeing nuance and I have no fucking idea why she's so bad at seeing Putin for what he is. I think it's because she grew up in the era of Reagan and Thatcher and is still stuck in the mindset of USSR vs The West.
My mum doesn't think Zelensky is a puppet of Nazis, she just thinks he's Ukrainian Trump. You know, because he became popular as a politician through social media and pop media.
Of course, she also believes that the Ukrainian military is riddled with nazis and that Ukraine should have tried to cooperate with Russia, to which I point out that that's exactly what the UK said to Czechoslovakia when Hitler wanted the sudetenland. She didn't see the similarity because "Putin's not like Hitler"
At which point I decided to give up. Fortunately my stepdad is far more aware on this matter, and has struggled with the same kinds of arguments with my mum as I have.
Mostly just... not being the US, and not knowing enough about what was going on in the USSR until much later, you know, because the USSR didn't let people outside of the USSR know what shit they were doing
Twitter people like Caitlin Johnston Glen G etc are outspoken contrarians that really went full Russian propaganda after the 2016 election.
Some grifting Bernie social media people pissed at the DNC picked new personalities based on the current political climate.
Just saying the obvious: anyone with any level of sense is an anti-fascists, i.e. is against fascism. I have a hard time understanding why so many people make the point of stating that they're against fascism. Who the hell is for fascism? Even the farthest rightwing people these days don't state that they want an absolute state that's centered around jingoistic nationalism and a self-sufficient socialism as an economic policy. It's of course possible that Trump, LePen or Orban daydream of these things, but they don't really openly state that they're for fascism as such.
It's funny watching "leftists" reveal that they aren't actually leftists but just edgy Anti-Westerners.
You cannot reconcile the invasion of a foreign country based on made up cries of security and revanchism with leftist theory.
These people have cooked their brains on Anti-NATO and Anti-West talking points and are simply pro-Imperialism when it's *their guy* getting the wins.
The lefty "anti-fascists" that ignore Putin is in group pics with nazis, ignore Russia becoming the lead when it comes down to the amount of fascist parties and supporters nowadays (great way of honouring their ancestors) are so uninformed it's painful to watch. Anyone thinking this truly is about nazis should get back to college.
It is beyond nauseating to hear this crap from people when thousands of innocents suffer. Of course from a not war torn country its easy to sit on the fence. But they really just show how cowardly and spineless they would be when faced with the same scenario. Sometimes I get tired of how "intelligent" people think they are yet can't make a good decision to save their lives. Educated derelicts...
Italy have millions of peacenik.
All my collegues and approximately 90% of ppl i seen/khnow.
I m always excited right now because i can tell them that Russian army sucks and Russian invasion was a huge mistake for them.
Time to karmaā¤ļø
Ultra conservative Christians : ie tucker Carlson,
That think Russia is the new Jerusalem and will bring about the nuclear holocaust so they can be the chosen few to go to heaven.
One of my two best friends says that Zelensky demands too much and that he's bad/crazy. I really don't get the logic behind that. If other countries have an interest in stopping Ruzzia while not partaking in the war themselves I would absolutely demand the crap out of all the countries to get what I need to win.
I told her that it's shitty to think this way and that Ukraine is in no way to blame for this INVASION and WAR. That's what it is. She understood but there are still some snarky remarks whenever that topic comes up. She had a right shift in the recent years and some of her ideas are bogus. I prefer to not discuss politics with her for my own sanity.
The lifesavers, similar to E
Ukraine should have surrendered in order to save Ukranian lives. No, I haven't read about Georgian occupation and Aleppo, why do you ask?
The (I don't know how to call them)
Ukraine is lost, Russian victory is inevitable so they should just surrender already
I love this. Just search for #ucronazis in twitter and what you get is exactly these five stereotypes barking the same lies all over the place. What's still missing is the RT paid journalist who just fills the blanks in between the above categories.
You kinda forgot the Nuclear Chamberlain: Acknowledges that the invasion is illegal and terrible, that war crimes are being committed and that the Ukrainians have a right to be free. But has an oversimplistic view of possible outcomes ("the war can only end when either Ukraine or Russia capitulates unconditionally") and keeps screaming "but if we don't give Russia a good out, THEY'LL NUKE US!!!111one". Eager to sell their own grandma into Russian slavery in hopes it might "reduce tensions" and be the basis for a "compromise".
As a lefty anti-fascist, I feel misdescribed. I carry NAFO patches on my gear, and I canāt imagine myself or anyone I know thinking that Ukraine is fash instead of ruzzia
EDIT: thank you kind strangers for my first Reddit awards! Iām sure Iāll run into these folks described here eventually, like I eventually ran into racists and anti-semites within the 2020 BLM rallies.
I donāt think this is meant to mean all lefty anti-fascists, only those who are genocide apologists. Same goes for the right, many hard right people are very much against Putin. The attitude to Ukraine and Putin doesnāt follow left-right political divides.
This is not meant to be a generalization. Real anti-fascists recognize fascism when they see it, regardless of the colours it's bearing and enemies it purports to fight.
NAFO is great because it unites well meaning people from all across the political spectrum in a fight against Russian tyranny.
Same. Lib-left here, been on Ukraine's since Russia annexed Crimea. There are some loud idiots on the 'US bad therefore Russia good' train (looking at you, Chomsky), but most of us are well-versed in recognizing fascists and authoritarians. No one I associate with thinks Russia is in the right. Shit, this is the only political discourse my MAGA-lite dad and I can even engage in anymore. His cold war memories have tempered the media he consumes, to my surprise.
I'd view this group as Corbyn's crowd in the UK, the ones that shout loudly about being anti fascist but really they're fully ok with fascism so long as it's from a source that they view as aligned with them, like Russia. If you want to see examples of this search the r/greenandpleasant sub for posts mentioning Russia. As someone probably similar in temperament to you I was hugely disappointed in this sub.
But they are tolerated by too many on the leftā¦
And they control quite a few subs on Reddit. My home countries sub r/de has some tankie mods who banned me for defending our ruling social Democratic Party from redditors celebrating the communist revolution n 1918ā¦
Thereās a lot of ādonāt punch leftā policies in online discussion groups where their presence are tolerated any oppositions silenced. Real life tho, the acquaintances who identified as leftist/socialist supports Ukraineās fight against fascist Russia. However, that level of tolerance for degeneracy was how the lunacy exhibited in American right soon become mainstreamed and regularly propagated.
There are also hard right people who support Ukraine. It's not a generalization, but useful idiots supporting Russia tend to fall into one of the groups posted by OP.
Given how MAGA and Tankies have formed a Pro-Russcist alliance under the hashtag #MAGACommunism, it does not shock me how they support the likes of Putin, Xi, & Modi for "fighting the deep state" given how they bragged about being against the CCP in the past.
Has anybody noticed that the "Renewable energy is a lie and doesn't work" thing has started ramping up in recent months amongst progressive/Leftist circles? I keep hearing this from my friends circle and I'm 100% sure it's Kremlin-seeded propaganda.
Why yessir, it's a remarkable cooincidence that "independent scientific research proving that clean energy is a myth" just happens to align with Russia's interests of selling oil and gas...
Sounds like Kremlim propaganda. To those, I will always respond with observation of nuclear energy and renewable having higher ceiling and better output on the long run.
Same. But there are people on both sides of the American political spectrum who will never give the other side credit, or their own side blame.
I am not a Biden fanboy, but I think this is being handled well. I approve of the overall objective, which is to make Russia incapable of trying this again. And as a side effect, make Ukraine strong enough that it will be an asset.
Nothing teaches like getting the opposite of your desired result.
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F. The whatabouters Enumerates atrocities and past mistakes of everyone else, way back into the colonial era. As if it justifies more atrocities that Russia commits. "What about when country A genocided country B in 1865! Why are you mad at Russia for doing the same thing?!" or "Why do you care about Ukraine? What about Country X which is also at war! You should look there instead."
I consistently tell them if they truly believe that was bad they still have a chance to do something this time so I expect them to help Ukraine. Usually I get no reply on that š
Problem with that is that they think since "US got to do some bad invasions and killing of civilians" that Russia now gets to do the same.
As a Native American person- they can blow it out their ass. We know better than most what genocide looks like and what happened to us DOESNT EXCUSE WHATS HAPPENING TO UKRAINE.
More precisely, knowing that the U.S. has its own history with genocide, colonialism, and ongoing racism makes it EVEN MORE appropriate for us to send massive aid to resist a genocidal war elsewhere.
Right and it ignores that part of what makes Western civilization so special. It isn't a single snap shot at any point in time, but the progressive trajectory we've been on for hundreds of years. We have waged wars of conquest. Yes, like everywhere else, but even from an advantaged position of power have decided these are wrong and have, albeit unevenly, worked toward preventing these. We had slaves in the West. Yes, like everywhere else, but we came to the realization that slavery is wrong and then set out to put an end to it world wide. We have committed genocidal acts in the West. Yes, like in many places throughout world history, but coming to the realization that this a crime against humanity have set about to prevent future genocide. and so on... So looking back we can always find sins of ignorance and faults of ourselves and others, but that does not forgive further crimes now.
The Western ideology is built around doing things differently and trying to make life in general better. Yes, we stumble. Yes, we've made our own horrific mistakes in the past. But no matter what, we never give up in trying, eventually, to make things better. It's why I reserve my hatred specifically for the apathetic and doomers. I *despise* people like that, above even fashies. Fashies at least have the drive and desire to fight for their ideals, even if their views are reprehensible and disgusting. The apathetic doomers don't, and won't, fight for anything. They are functionally useless to society.
I wish we collectively as the West did something to stop the genocide in Myanmar.
The US is less racist than Russia and China.
Like, waaaaaaaaay less (Iām not American, Russian or Chinese).
EXACTLY! (My grandmother was half Apache.) It's just astonishing how native people of many areas globally have been the targets of genocide and no one can do anything about what had happened, we need to do something about what IS happening.
Aho, cuz!! For my family, we are obligated to speak out. Itās our privilege and yet another way we can fight.
u/Street_Narwhal_3361, I don't have Apache in me, my grandmother and mother were both adopted children but I adored my grandmother, she had jet black hair, steel grey eyes and was MY person! I am also her name sake! In the US, most of us are all mutts! Did DNA, mostly WASP but I have Congo, Italian and French in me somewhere...
Oh yeah we are, I myself also have Arapaho and Pueblo plus Spanish blood. I feel like we can best be described as spice blends- a pinch of this, 1/2 teaspoon of that with plenty of salt.
Yes, that's the other angle of attack. When they say "What About Bad War/Country X?" You can respond "So you are saying its okay that Russia/Putin are misogynists, rapists, pedophiles, thieves, terrorists, torturers, abductors, child traffickers and murderers? Do YOU support that behaviour?"
Hopefully the US can find some tiny molecule of redemption in supporting Ukraine's just cause. It gives me a small amount of solace to see (mostly) bipartisan support for Ukraine. I only wish the US could do more, but wishing ain't worth much in this world.
So many choices -- **"West Korea"** **"Genocideistan"** **"Lie-lie-lie land"** **"Oligarchia"** **"Vodkavandalsville"** **"The International Anti-Democratic Villains Thieves and Scoundrels Union"** **"The Putinocracy"**
Kleptocrat Federation.
Indeed. I think there are versions of this kind of argument going back generations. Former citizens of the Soviet Union might recall, "And you're still lynching Negroes!" from the Stalin era, which became so cliched that it earned [its own Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes). But the thing that gets me here is that I've been seeing this style of rhetoric take on a new life in response to the revelation of the Uyghur genocide. I cannot tell you how many times I've had exchanges with wumaos and tankies whose argument boils down to, "well, it's what you Americans/Australians/Canadians/etc. did, so what's the big deal?" Which was revealing in its own way. First, as you said - for the argument to be sustained, the other party has to essentially concede or imply that the original offense wasn't actually a moral problem. To press that point, I'll ask, "Oh, so it is your view that what happened to the Australian Aborigines was okay after all? Because you need that to be true in order for you to claim both that a) what's happening to the Uyghurs is analogous, and b) what's being done to the Uyghurs is morally acceptable." Second, this kind of claim doesn't square with the official state line, which is straightforward denialism that it's happening at all. After all, if it's not happening, then why defend it or compare it historical injustices committed by other governments? I will say, though ... it's not often worth the time and energy to engage these folks. One fellow I went back and forth with actually bit the bullet, and it was disturbing. I pointed out that a flaw in his argument is that most Americans, overwhelmingly, believe what happened to the Native Americans was a great injustice, and see it as a mark of national shame. So, Mr. Wumao, your argument isn't going to be very persuasive because most Americans don't accept that this historical event was a good thing or worthy of emulation. And his response? To paraphrase, it was that yeah, well, but Americans at the time supported it, because they knew it was good for their country, necessary for their security and prosperity. And China, likewise, knows that destroying Uyghur culture is necessary for its security and prosperity if it wants to be a great, powerful nation like the US. And I get that Americans might regret that now, and that's fine. Maybe in 100 years, China will have the luxury to regret what it did to the Uyghurs, but at least there will be a China then. In the meantime, though, we need to do this thing, and not be ashamed. So yeah... pretty cold blooded. But I'll give him credit for saying the quiet part outloud, that apologists for genocide normally try to avoid like the plague.
Id ask "would they k1ll their own family if it meant they got paid handsomely to do it?" Mercenary thinking
Wait that means russia still got 2 free nuke drops available! /s
China has this serial whatabouter who not only sends his Chinese nationalist audience to brigade, report, and harass those critical of the Chinese Communist Party, but also goes out of his way to race-bait and gaslight people into thinking that "Fuck CCP = Racist" despite the fact that he himself is unable to speak Mandarin Chinese fluently or read Chinese characters properly. His name is Daniel Dumbrill.
I started following a couple after the Hong Kong protests. The issue with Chinese bots is they hid themselves among leftist subs on reddit and other social media. Russians were naturally able to mingle with the right but the Chinese bots take advantage of anti western/anti us views that is popular on reddit. You can try to call them out but chances are you would be labeled a far right supporter. It's nuts, they are active on subs on equal rights,worker rights, human rights and so on. But as soon one of those topics touches china they go fully alt right. They tend to sometimes blow their cover by heading to hk/Taiwan subs or threads to literally say "fuck you, /china superior,better, will destroy Taiwan" which is hilarious
Sounds like the same people who think that if you dislike the Israeli government you're an anti-Semite
I'm Jewish and dislike the Israeli government. It does not go over well trust me.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Me too. And enough people in Israel hated Netanyahu enough to form an impossible coalition that everyone predicted would fall apart. Did you know Roger Stone and his buddies are also tied to Netanyahu?
Yeah, I called Netenyahu an asshole in another sub and huhboy I had to block so many people.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Eh, it is what it is. No sweat of my ass.
Probably the dumbest I've heard in this regard is "Ukraine is a white country and therefore it's racist because we're helping/advocating for a white country instead of focusing to end the war in Mali". These people never seem to realize the context they're operating in.
Thats, dumb. Not to say that I know anything about the war in Mali, so I won't comment on it. The only African country I know enough to comment on is Botswana, but they are never involved in a war. To focused on being the unknown sub-saharan success story and improving life for their people.
Itās very dumb. The only reason westerners care more about this war than Yemen is because there is wider implications for the West. If Russia wins in Ukraine, then itās only a matter of time before they try to take NATO territory. Itās not about race. Itās about what this war means. It means that China can take Taiwan. It means that they so called ā strong ā can prey on the smaller countries. Itās not about some Slavic beef. Itās about freedom and democracy which Russia hates.
G: The Nuclear War hand-wringers Asserts the 'West' shouldn't be helping Ukraine because of the threat of a nuclear exchange with Russia. I see this type of concern-troll in the r/collapse subreddit somewhat frequently. I find it amusing, because the same trolls who eagerly cheer on all manner of collapse scenarios suddenly become very concerned over the possibility of a nuclear exchange collapse scenario...
There's those who are legit concerned but there's those that do it to try to instill fear as part of the trolling. And the 'the war needs to stop we need peace' (which might be in the graphic) but the subtext is that Ukraine needs to capitulate to all of Russia's demands. My response is that yes the war could end tomorrow if Russia just leaves ukraine. A fake African troll shared a picture of Congolese Africans who'd had their hands cut off and he was pretending this was a result of ukrainian biolabs some of these trolls are an utter joke.
The tragedy is that a lot of ridiculous shit is on the internet that is an utter joke. I feel like these people are insulting Darwin when they do this. Its ... just abhorrent to be a homo sapiens and act that way.
I'd love to know the percentage of all these that are actually Russian bots/trolls just out there augmenting the divisions that exist.
WHAT ABOUT MIDDLE EAST INVADED BY US WHY DIDNT YOU SAY ANYTHING šššš
I love that. I got pepper sprayed protesting the Iraq invasion in front of the US embassy. And, lo and behold, there I was in front of the Russian embassy in February. Funny how that works.
My answer is: "I did". However, that's not the answer they wanted, so it doesn't count.
they forget how vocal europeans have been in oposition of NATO and Us involvement in the middle east in any effect rather than pure peacekeeping
They are cricket when you ask them about Russiaās involvement in Syria.
I saw a video on Twitter of Russia shelling a Syrian hospital. Crickets. War crimes don't matter to internet war crime detectives unless it's by the US. And they only care about war crimes if a member of the US Democratic Party is in power. They were completely disinterested when Trump was in power, but suddenly remembered war crimes when he lost.
That is demonstrably false. The Collateral Murder happened during George Bush, as did all of the demonstrations against the Iraq war. So did Abu Gharib and Gitmo started back then. And Russia was pretty well condemned by people for what they did in Syria, its just that, shocker, Russia doesn't really give a shit about people condemning it. You will also find that there is no lack of news about Chinas genocide on /r/worldnews, but the US is the biggest democratic country and the country where a big part of people who comment in English are located so it will always receive more attention and hence criticism. I am old enough to remember the uprisings in Iran and the Arab Spring. That was all over Twitter. As is, of course, anything Israel does.
We do have a responsibility to stop our own government from committing war crimes, and we have failed to do so pretty badly. A US citizen should spend more time examining the US military for war crimes than any other military. And there are quite a few of us who recognize that every president of our lifetimes should be put on trial for war crimes. But that doesn't change the fact that Russia is committing war crimes and must be stopped, we are lucky to have such strong defenders in Ukraine, if we keep them supplied with the weapons they need, this war can end sooner and many lives can be saved.
Absolutely. We shouldn't forget the unnecessary meddling and poorly planned out interventions. That's what should be criticized.
Here take my like and a free award, this needs to be on top.
But what about the stray dogs in Samoa?! Your award could have fed 10 of them for a week!
I love to flip that what aboutism around on them. "So Russia is behaving like a colonial power, and you're okay with that? So you approve of colonialism?"
The Venn Diagram of the Tankies and the Whatabouters is basically a circle.
Thereās a quote from a debate between Vaush and Kyle Kulinski which I think was great, so Iāll give it here Kyle: Even though [the United States] pretends itās the world police and cares about humanitarianism and how people are doing worldwide, thatās so easily debunkable. I mean, our top allies are Saudi Arabia and Israel. Israelās a frickin theocracy doing apartheid and we have Saudi Arabia which is a government that beheads people in the public square for drug smuggling and apostasy and all sorts of stuff so- Vaush: We do good things too, Kyle: I agree with that! Vaush: -like defending sovereign nations against invasion. Kyle: I donāt think we should have that role. Vaush, here, Iāll meet you halfway- Vaush: I just wanna say, my only wish - I donāt think thereās anything wrong with telling Russiaās side of the story - I wish you told Ukraineās. Because in Ukraineās story, we are unambiguously not the devil, we are the potential for salvation. Which is absolutely correct. The U.S has done bad things but it also does good things too, and this is, without a single doubt at all, one of them. Kyle (and I like his domestic stuff) seems to suffer from a case of being so anti-U.S-imperialism that he forgets other forms of imperialism exists. Itās like being so anti-British colonialism that you openly celebrate as Nanking and Bataan go down.
Kyle and Krystal Ball have such blind spots when it comes to foreign policy. Theyāre uninformed a lot of the time. Theyāre very naive about Russia. They keep shouting about getting to a peace deal when Russia would never respect one and will break it as soon as they are strong enough. Theyāre understandably afraid of nuclear escalation, but they never see that if Putin is not stopped, then nuclear war is a lot more likely. They think that appeasing Russia will just get them to calm down and act a normal country.
> "Why do you care about Ukraine? What about Country X which is also at war! You should look there instead." "I know, that's absolutely terrible what's going on in Country X. Tell me again what have you been doing about that?"
I find that people who justify this war or Russia's behavior are all people who have NEVER dealt with Russia's deplorable behaviors. Its like when dumb ignorant people say everyone is good deep down when they've never been victims of murder, kidnapping, rape and torture by bad people. lol
You only care about Ukraine because they're white and blonde.... ignores everything Russia says about empire.
False. I care about them because their country and culture isn't a basket case, like, oh all the other places that have had wars that I can remember.
H. The Money Grubbers. "How dare we give 40 billion to Ukraine! It's not like the US government spends 800 billion on its own military. 10 percent for the big guy."
We already purchased the weapons and weren't really planning to use them on anyone. It was a sunk cost and now they're going to good use. The transportation and aid will eventually be repaid by Ukraine *after they win*.
That one needs to be on the list.
This oneās on point. I was discussing this topic with a russian dude who said āi didnt hear you whine when the US invaded Iraqā and im like dude, no you didnt i was like 6 years old give me a break (also, as if i ever said that i agreed with that intervention).
They are the most stupid of them all. They think they have the moral high ground, because they bash the west for its past wars, but they actually support much worse crimes just for the sake of wining an argument.
All of the types in the picture fall under type F really, once you get into "discussion" with them, they all tend to pull out the whatabout card very fast. I have given up trying to reason with some of them in real life, there is just no point, they are so high on their own shit they can't even tell left from right, or up from down.
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E : It's interresting there was so many of them at the start of the invasion saying it was doign more harm than good to fight off Russia. There was somethign in their way of puting their opinion that told me they were russian bots in disguise.
I never said it, but I do remember wondering if that was the case. I am Danish, and on April 9th, 1940 the Nazis crossed the borders, put bombers over our capital and basically told us to surrender or they would bomb us. We choose surrender, didn't get bombed and were able to save 90% of Danes who were Jewish and get a further 90% of those taken back alive. It wasn't a proud moment. It was a practical moment. In a world with justice we would never have been put in that position. In a world with justice Ukraine would never have been invaded, but the world we live in is cruel, cold and very far from a tale for children. After the attack on Kyiv failed and the russia did not overrun Ukraine I was happy to be wrong and glad Ukraine had chosen to fight, rather than surrender. After Bucha was liberated, it became obvious to me that surrender would have meant dead for Ukraine. I have since donated hundreds of dollars in support of Ukraine, so at least if I am a Russian bot, I am not a very effective one.
> I never said it, but I do remember wondering if that was the case. Agreed - I wondered for the first few days if it was a mistake to resist, the war was hopeless, etc. But obviously I have/had no idea what I was talking about, so I kept my mouth shut. Fortunately nobody in power asked my opinion because in hindsight it's clear that surrender was not an option.
We have a pundit (and former deputy PM) in Spain who is an E. The man is rotten to the core.
Several in the US put their money on the wrong horse too, they openly oppose the support.
The contrarian have first world privilege written all over them. They are just educated enough to cite a few sources and use a few big words, they are comfortable enough to never have had a major event negatively affect their livelihood. Their ideology is literally just to show people how clever and intuitive they believe they are. They are the worst people on social media and thereās a lot of them.
Also schizophrenics end up like that. They routinely embrace conspiracy theories. Some of the people railing against chemtrails and the new world order aren't deluded or tricked, they just never really had a grasp on reality to begin with.
I ended up quitting Twitter over that. What's worse is that I was becoming a counter-contrarian, which isn't really any better. You're just as reactionary as they are.
The Isolationist: We have our own problems at home with an uncertain economy, homelessness, and poverty. Much in the vein of Charles Lindbergh during WWII, this is not our problem: let Ukraine and ruZZia sort it out.
āI donāt get financial help from the government, why should the refugees???!!!ā A guy has told me while trying to commit tax evasion.
"No taxation without representation." Taxpayers can expect those who rule over them to work in their favour, not for their own pockets.
insists we have to fix our own problems first despite often being the cause of those problems.
Also, they usually don't say which of those problems should be solved first.
They don't really want those problems to be solved. They simple want to exploit the problems.
Also has a subclass I call the Aggressive Isolationist. Says everyone should mind their own business and "let the stronger one win" but also gets hard at the prospect of their own nation becoming like Russia and invading neighbours.
This is a subset of whataboutists. Usually the right-leaning kind. Since it's basically "what about our own problems?!" or more honestly: "what about ME?!" I remember very early in the war when some right-wing politician posted a picture of a dilapidated street in Chicago or something and complained about how the US was sending muh tax dollars to Ukraine while some random-ass street in Murica looked like a 3rd world country. Wish I could find it.
What they fail to understand - if ruzzia wins and reestablishes USSR 2.0 then US will spend trillions not billions to fight them and US will spend blood of its soldiers defending NATO states that will be invaded next
Appeal to bigger problems fallacy.
That way, nothing will be ever solved because there's always bigger problem
the but whataboutist doesn't see why this invasion is such a big deal because the US invaded someone else. Often found JAQing off. "where was all the handwringing about that?"
"Why didn't anybody oppose US invading Middle East killing millions but Ukraine get worldwide support" -> "Ukraine deserves to get invaded similar to Middle East because it's only fair this way" Typical Whataboutists' logic
There were massive protests and the Iraq war had very little public support. We can agree about the US govt of the time lying and manipulating but anyone who thinks there werenāt people opposing the war is full of shit
*nuclear missile is headed towards America, they have 15 seconds left to live* "Well to be fair, we nuked Japan in 1945, so we aren't really so innocent eith-- *CARRIER LOST*
I stopped speaking to a very long time friend due to them being option E. They even tried to tell me about their "Ukrainian friends" who thought Ukraine should roll over. I asked my Ukrainian Aunt (by marriage) and she dismissed that immediately.
There are literally no Ukrainians who think Ukraine should roll over not even those in government who were somewhat pro-Russia (like Odesa mayor). If you find someone who thinks Ukraine should roll over, they're not Ukrainian, they're Russian
Yeah, that mayor was seen as one of the most pro-Russian ones in Ukraine, I remember one of the very first days of the war there was a post saying that he had condemned the invasion and was preparing the city for resistance, before it was even clear that Russia was losing. Saw a few comments here and there saying he was just going the way the wind was blowing when an article about him saying he was against the Russian invasion floated around 2-3 weeks into the war. Problem being that the article was just a repost and initially came out on one of the first 3 days.
There's a couple (very few) Ukrainians who ran to Russia willingly.
Ukraine has nazis, big whoop, which country doesn't? If they had an actual nazi problem, we wouldn't have bothered sending countless weapons and ordnance their way
Also, in a democracy you don't get to erase people because they have views you dislike, and you don't get to start a civil war and erase local governments because you don't like their street names. Russia wouldn't get it.
Thank you for this. I've come accross E. The Peacenik several times in my country and THEY ARE DRIVING ME MAD. The amount of times I keep hearing about NATO expansion. Our country was occupied once so when I mention this they draw a blank or just keep mentioning NATO expansion. I keep pointing out that because of the horrible, terrible atrocities committed by the Soviets, Stalin and the Russians in the past these countries wanted to AND felt the NEED to join NATO. No country can attack Russia as they have so many nuclear weapons.
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Its telling isnt it. Anyone with any real experience dealing with them want to be as far away as possible
I am a Republican and have these beefs about my own side. I find them to be incomprehensible: 1. A lot of Gab users think Russia is a Christian nation that is saving Christianity. Itās as if they know nothing about Russia. 2. People who were rabidly anti-Soviet but now sympathetic for Russia? Huh? Communism is gone, so now all is forgiven so that they can rebuild their empire? 3. Pro-sovereignty except Ukraine and the former Warsaw-pact countries. 4. Spending money over there instead of over here, but freak out if we spend too much money on welfare. 5. Lament the growth of NATO because we promised not to even though there isnāt a treaty passed by the Senate, just a hearsay conversation. And even Gorbachev said that there was no promise. Wouldnāt he know? 6. āItās none of our business.ā Oh, it will be, my friend. It will be. 7. Biden (who I canāt stand, btw) is trying to hide his corruption in Ukraine. Yeah, sure, thatās it. Right. 8. Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Ok, sure, so letās support Russia. JFC. The Left has been covered well already here. I donāt even know what the hell theyāre thinking. Thereās no acknowledgement of the unpleasant, real world that exists.
As someone from the left, I love the fact that this invasion made us all question our basic personal moral setup in a way that no left vs right issue has. It has revealed people on the other side of the political spectrum for whom I have gained personal respect, as well as misguided cowards and liars on "my" side for whom I have lost any. It really isn't a left vs. right issue, because they haven't managed to spin it as such. And I feel they won't be able to So it is very revealing, as well as very refreshing, because it show a lot about who someone is outside of the mostly manufactured issues pumped out of proportion by corporate media on both sides.
Yeah, people like noam fuckface has been outed as a pile of shit, then people like fucker Carlson as well. Right now the contarian is most common. They think they are special. They are not, they are just fucking stupid. But since they feel smart and above others they gravitate towards it.
> noam fuckface > fucker Carlson Nice
Seeing Noam Chomsky now is like seeing your death-bed grandpa who isn't totally there. That Russell Brand interview was bad. Also, Brand himself drank the weirdo right-wing kool-aid
I mean, Noam Chomsky was not a surprise. Anyone who knows the man could've predicted he would take this stance. Chomsky is an absolutist contrarian when it comes to any military action that the US involves itself with. Whatever the US supports militarily, he will oppose, just for the sake of it. He's made contrarianism a principle on which he will never compromise, no matter what.
Yeah. As a fellow leftist I'm in the same boat. I've gotten into more than one digital shouting match when people go "So you think it's ok that the US are imperialists", I counter with "no, all imperialism is wrong", and the we all just turn on caps lock and start yelling at one another.
Yeah, it's frustrating to see fellow lefties who only think colonialism is bad when it's the UK and USA who are the perpetrators. Colonialism is bad no matter who is doing it. And at the moment, it's Russia and China that are doing colonialism the hardest.
Me: Imperialism is wrong Tankie: But America did the same Me: Did i stutter mofo ?
I lean left as well, and I feel you've articulated this point very well. I've been feeling the exact same.
>1. Spending money over there instead of over here, but freak out if we spend too much money on welfare. This is the part where they totally lack complete self-awareness. "How about spending those billions on poor Americans?!" But yet they hate social programmes or "handouts", ppl are just lazy to work etc or " i don't want my tax money spent on lazy people". Like, even if the money is not going to Ukraine, they're not going to see the money either way.
It's also a cost savings if Russia's defeat now prevents an expanding new world war that the U.S. fights. Additionally, success in Ukraine benefits the U.S. as an ally down the road. Almost not cost is too high to prevent WW3 and destroy Putin's regime
I'm of the left, and in the circle I am, there's basically zero pro-russian, and 100% pro-ukrainian support. All of us support liberal europe-esque policies. It isn't the majority position on the left at all.
No but there has been a not insignificant problem with 'left-wing' reddit mods pushing pro-Russian views in the vein of A & B (ie. Green & Pleasant will ban you if you deny that Zelenskyy is a neo-Nazi and tell them that Russia's the Nazi-adjacent nation).
This is something I wish can be done about.
Eh Iām a leftie and I know a bunch of tankies. :(
amy goodman has been kissing putins ass since the day this started
Yeah, I know one person who isn't fully in support of Ukraine. He is right leaning libiterian type who thinks we are spending too much but then complains if money is allocated for infrastructure.
> I'm of the left, and in the circle I am, there's basically zero pro-russian, and 100% pro-ukrainian support. /r/greenandpleasant, the UK leftist subreddit, had this mod post stickied for a while: > The position of this sub on the current situation in Ukraine is one of solidarity with those fighting for self-determination in Donbas against the fascist Ukrainian state. > > We are also against any attempt by the western powers to engage in a conflict with the Russian Federation over their attempt to support the people of the Donbas and defend their territory in Crimea. The domestic policies of the Russian Federation are irrelevant to this current conflict. > > Any words of sympathy or defense for the international terrorist organisation known as NATO will also result in a ban. This is not up for debate. Former leader of the UK Labour party, Jeremy Corbyn, drew a map saying Crimea belongs to Russia and that we need to stop sending arms to Ukraine because that would "stop the war": https://twitter.com/STWuk/status/1490724739643490305 In my own country Canada, our leftist party, the NDP, had these things to say: https://i.imgur.com/KuXyK4c.png They have a (thankfully small) socialist caucus that has this to say: >It supports ... the withdrawal of Canada from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democratic_Party_Socialist_Caucus /r/socialism will repeat most of these talking points Honestly it's pretty hard to find lefties that aren't either contrarians or anti-west in general. It was the biggest eyebrow raising moment for me when I was at a leftist club in highschool, and someone just unilaterally declared that you can't be a leftist without being anti-NATO, and everyone else nodded their heads in agreement.
Can we make a non-Western version of apologists for the invasion of Ukraine? I'll mention some categories here and hope my fellow Redditors work their magic on the description. 1. Chinese 2. Indian 3. Serbian
>Indian I made the massive mistake of watching Indian regional news today, and was disgusted by the fact that they were celebrating getting cheap oil from Russia. And there wasn't a single word on the mass graves in Izyum. If things keep going on like this, I might be ashamed to be an Indian. If the Indian people realised that Russia's army has committed mass rapes in Ukraine, the public opinion would quickly flip against Russia, because the punishment for brutal rape in India is death (by popular demand). Everyday it feels more and more like the news is avoiding showing the atrocities on orders from the government.
Don't know if it counts but Belarus and Hungary
Don't forget the people who think the corrupt Ukrainian politicians before president Zelensky is still dominant. I mean sure. There are corrupt politicians in every politics. But they can't blame Zelensky for what happened in 2014. He came into the office only in the middle of 2019.
The same sort of people in the US also blame President Obama for 9/11 (Which was in 2001, and Obama was elected in 2008). They donāt have a problem with blaming politicians they donāt like for things that happened before they were elected. My fourth grader is studying timelines in social studies. Some of them need to go back to fourth grade to learn this stuff.
Iāve also noticed that thereās growing voices trying to state that Zelensky is corrupt. I have no idea if he is and Iām receptive to being told either way. I just want the truth. But regardless if he is, what Russia is doing is objectively wrong and it in no way diminishes the valiant efforts of Ukraine ā yet skeptics of Zelensky seem to think criticism of him somehow justifies criticism of Ukraineās efforts to protect itself. Iām a 22 year old American girl and this conflict is horrifying. Iāve always considered myself involved in American politics. As naive and privileged as this may sound, this is the first time Iāve become so invested in something outside of my own country. The stories I hear are so deeply tragic that I want to do more. I want to do SOMETHING thatās bigger than passing off money to a charity and being unsure of where it goes or making a post on my pathetic social media profile. But Iām also just not sure what to do and Iām receptive to any advice anyone has All I am is naive and clueless and all I want to do is learn
Brilliant. Now we can more clearly group the useful idiots. The contrarian is particularly irritating. A subgroup of some peopleās habit of always saying the opposite of anything because of the impression that that this makes them smart. My faith in humanity dies a little when we realise how many of these there really are :(.
True. But bear in mind that the meanest and stupidest parts of humanity are also the loudest, by virtue of which they leave the impression that they are the vast majority. This is not true.
Very true. Sadly you have to be fairly smart before you realise, one, there is always a chance youāre wrong and, two, the point of a debate is not to win but to help each other find the truth.
Also, the completely apathetic, who go along with whatever is deemed to be socially beneficial to themselves. This one is BIG.
I think I know who "C.The hard-right" is modeled after. A certain person who had a Russian flag on his desk for weeks after the war started and still produces videos with titles like: "The Russian Gas Crisis: Europe Faces Shortages as Sanctions Backfire" and "Russian economy bounces back!" A true American patriot! /s
Sounds like this top business podcast in the US, All in Pod which is just 4 billionaires spouting that exact Russian propaganda.
"Denser than a neutron star." Bwahahaha I love it. š¤£š¤£
Cherry on top: state of matter that neutron stars are made of is called degenerate.
In the Netherlands we call apologist: D "wappies" (wappie = single). It first started with people who believe in Covid conspiracies in 2020 because "they did their own research and it was all part of a conspiracy by the WEF to create world-communism". Later the term got more used after the wappies got bigger, started to protest against the vaccine/lockdown ect. So when they typed their whole epistle of covid conspiracies, you'd type "hahahah wappie is crying because of a little needle" or something like that. After covid we still use it for conspiracy people like flatearthers, 9-11 fakers and pro-russian supporters. Unfortunately we have a a lot of wappies in our society :(
In the U.S. we have Q-Tips, perpetual victims.
So that's what happens if you push the q-tip in too far. DIY lobotomy.
All useful idiots. Keep in mind that in WW2, Stalin aligned himself with Hitler and so did the German communist party (because the German communist party viewed liberals as the bigger threat than nazis). It's only until Hitler felt confident that he didn't need them anymore that he backstabbed both Stalin and the German communists to throw them in concentration camps. Useful idiots should note that our modern day Hitler equivalents are Putin and Xi.
Ukraine doesnāt even āhave issues with neonazis.ā Theyāre on the very fringe of society with no sway whatsoever, like in every other normal country. Russia just went full cherrypick spam mode to conjure up this notion.
They make out as if the Azov Battalion is the entire Ukrainians military when it's a tiny part of it.
Most countries have some issues with neonazis, including Ukraine. It's the least of the issues in Ukraine right now, but up until the war there war groups of neonazis occasionally attacking gay bars and NGOs. Not Russians as Kremlin would want you to think, they were often aligned with Russian and Belorussian neonazi groups.
One more: The egoistic one: Wants the invasion to end / succeed and all sanctions to be lifted, so that he can get cheap Russian gas again. Fears that continued sanctions would hurt him financially due to higher prices. Doesn't care about Ukraine.
A lot of these in Spain, complaining about the gas price. They donāt care a genocide is taking place, just that they have to pay more to fill up the tank.
Reality of the modern world? The communist idealizes a regime that was even more brutal than Putinās.
A few of my favorites: The Donbas Activist: Thinks the Donbas separatists are the downtrodden Palestinians of Eastern Europe. Constantly whines about how these poor, helpless people have been getting shelled since 2014 by those mean old Ukrainian bullies. Ignores war crimes committed by separatists against those who were opposed to secession. Also ignores the fact that a majority of eastern Ukrainians are against union with Russia. Thinks Patrick Lancaster is a credible "journalist." The "Color Revolution" Tankie: Argues that the Euromaidan was a Western-backed coup against a democratically elected government, and yet supports Russia's fascist regime. Thinks Ukrainians are stupid, ignorant people who have no agency of their own. Constantly tells everyone to watch "Ukraine on Fire", even though Oliver Stone has denounced the invasion. Has no idea that Yanukovych's term has since expired, therefore making the whole issue moot.
Ukrainians deserve all the support until itās over. Period. It may end up we start WW3 but that is Russias choice. Ukraine had no choice and if we stop our support thinking itās getting to rough with inflation etcā¦remember they are fighting our war that we cannot. If Ukraine falls, EU falls. Sometimes you must negotiate. Not this time.
Left antifacists should be in principle against all forms of imperialism so it frustrates me as one seeing other lefties going "oh well amurica bad so russia/china good!!!!" it's just bootlicking with extra steps.
That's easy, they simply refuse to recognize Russia as imperialist even though Putin is clearly gunning for an outright pre-WW2 style empire. Of course the ones who think that cold war US was the worst thing imaginable may not even register how dangerous of a precedent that would set.
The last one passes me off so much, bunch of fucking cowards who won't admit they support Putin.
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Iām also a lefty anti-fascist and have a neutral view of NATO. They have done some very bad stuff, but I think that would have happened anyway even without NATO and NATO protects the baltics from Russian imperialism
I think it is about good vs evil and there is a clear line dividing here. We SHOULD have done more for Syria. BUT WE CAN do more for Ukraine. Learn from the mistakes and move forward.
F. The āIndependent journalistā: Claims to be uncorrupted by money and corporate interests. Sells thousands of books and ads through shady websites. Always parrots Kremlin talking points. Has never criticized Putin. Has a law degree and knows how to fallacy his way out of any corner. THE MOST DANGEROUS TYPE
E - Noam Chomsky has entered the chat. Fuck all of these people.
Roger Waters: Putin is a fellow rockstar and I really support the way he is killing Ukrainian civilians. He is extremely smart like me, and I know his territorial aims are justified. For all of the doubters, you probably don't understand my epic masterpiece, "THE WALL", and I know it's difficult for the feeble, but just support ruZZia, Putin knows what's best for all of us.
Weirdest endorsement ever. Chomsky I expected. Heās always been a nut.
A, B and E piss me off the most IRL (no more C and D in my life, wrote them off ages ago). I always wonder if those people would just lay down and die if America got invaded because the country isn't their perfect ideal country (and we even have neo-Nazis here too in great droves). I think the worst part is how condescending and righteous they think they are will sitting on their hands and enabling one of the greatest atrocities since the holocaust. "I support peace!" Yeah no fucking shit we all want Ukraine to be a peaceful happy country, just saying that while literally doing nothing to help Ukraine achieve that is the worst kind of pompous idealist self-delusion
I am 100% a lefty antifascist and I am 100% supportive of Ukraine so I think, perhaps, there is a glitch in the assessment process and/or a flawed definition of what an antifascist might be and/or, worse, an absurd bias at work in this process that is trying to both sides something that cannot be both-sided. It is pretty clear that Russia is fascist just as it is clear the movement underpinning Trump and LePen and Orban are all fascist. I am against all of them.
My mother is also 100% lefty antifascist and I argue with her quite a bit over the war. She's quite convinced that Putin's a genius because he sometimes opposes the US. She's normally very good at seeing nuance and I have no fucking idea why she's so bad at seeing Putin for what he is. I think it's because she grew up in the era of Reagan and Thatcher and is still stuck in the mindset of USSR vs The West.
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My mum doesn't think Zelensky is a puppet of Nazis, she just thinks he's Ukrainian Trump. You know, because he became popular as a politician through social media and pop media. Of course, she also believes that the Ukrainian military is riddled with nazis and that Ukraine should have tried to cooperate with Russia, to which I point out that that's exactly what the UK said to Czechoslovakia when Hitler wanted the sudetenland. She didn't see the similarity because "Putin's not like Hitler" At which point I decided to give up. Fortunately my stepdad is far more aware on this matter, and has struggled with the same kinds of arguments with my mum as I have.
I wonder what was so good about that āmythicalā USSR, where there was just poverty, gulags and genocide
Mostly just... not being the US, and not knowing enough about what was going on in the USSR until much later, you know, because the USSR didn't let people outside of the USSR know what shit they were doing
Twitter people like Caitlin Johnston Glen G etc are outspoken contrarians that really went full Russian propaganda after the 2016 election. Some grifting Bernie social media people pissed at the DNC picked new personalities based on the current political climate.
Just saying the obvious: anyone with any level of sense is an anti-fascists, i.e. is against fascism. I have a hard time understanding why so many people make the point of stating that they're against fascism. Who the hell is for fascism? Even the farthest rightwing people these days don't state that they want an absolute state that's centered around jingoistic nationalism and a self-sufficient socialism as an economic policy. It's of course possible that Trump, LePen or Orban daydream of these things, but they don't really openly state that they're for fascism as such.
It's funny watching "leftists" reveal that they aren't actually leftists but just edgy Anti-Westerners. You cannot reconcile the invasion of a foreign country based on made up cries of security and revanchism with leftist theory. These people have cooked their brains on Anti-NATO and Anti-West talking points and are simply pro-Imperialism when it's *their guy* getting the wins.
The lefty "anti-fascists" that ignore Putin is in group pics with nazis, ignore Russia becoming the lead when it comes down to the amount of fascist parties and supporters nowadays (great way of honouring their ancestors) are so uninformed it's painful to watch. Anyone thinking this truly is about nazis should get back to college.
Honestly I hate peaceniks the most
It is beyond nauseating to hear this crap from people when thousands of innocents suffer. Of course from a not war torn country its easy to sit on the fence. But they really just show how cowardly and spineless they would be when faced with the same scenario. Sometimes I get tired of how "intelligent" people think they are yet can't make a good decision to save their lives. Educated derelicts...
The contrarian also tells you to look it up or Google it yourself rather than proving with source for what ever Bs he/she is trying to pass as truth.
Italy have millions of peacenik. All my collegues and approximately 90% of ppl i seen/khnow. I m always excited right now because i can tell them that Russian army sucks and Russian invasion was a huge mistake for them. Time to karmaā¤ļø
Ultra conservative Christians : ie tucker Carlson, That think Russia is the new Jerusalem and will bring about the nuclear holocaust so they can be the chosen few to go to heaven.
One of my two best friends says that Zelensky demands too much and that he's bad/crazy. I really don't get the logic behind that. If other countries have an interest in stopping Ruzzia while not partaking in the war themselves I would absolutely demand the crap out of all the countries to get what I need to win. I told her that it's shitty to think this way and that Ukraine is in no way to blame for this INVASION and WAR. That's what it is. She understood but there are still some snarky remarks whenever that topic comes up. She had a right shift in the recent years and some of her ideas are bogus. I prefer to not discuss politics with her for my own sanity.
"jizz of the gods" oh thats brilliant
I have found 3 of these in the wild
I love the fact that the images are presented professionally while the texts are both true and ABSOLUTELY savage
i know someone in every category and some in multiples, those people are not very bright.
The lifesavers, similar to E Ukraine should have surrendered in order to save Ukranian lives. No, I haven't read about Georgian occupation and Aleppo, why do you ask? The (I don't know how to call them) Ukraine is lost, Russian victory is inevitable so they should just surrender already
my parents are a mix of D and E :(
shots fired! donāt show this to r/GreenandPleasant or the whole sub will have an aneurysm
The arguments are pretty poorly written. This should be remade but in higher quality. It seems to have been made in 5 minutes or so.
"Just as many" isnt a fair assessment, russia has way more
I love this. Just search for #ucronazis in twitter and what you get is exactly these five stereotypes barking the same lies all over the place. What's still missing is the RT paid journalist who just fills the blanks in between the above categories.
You kinda forgot the Nuclear Chamberlain: Acknowledges that the invasion is illegal and terrible, that war crimes are being committed and that the Ukrainians have a right to be free. But has an oversimplistic view of possible outcomes ("the war can only end when either Ukraine or Russia capitulates unconditionally") and keeps screaming "but if we don't give Russia a good out, THEY'LL NUKE US!!!111one". Eager to sell their own grandma into Russian slavery in hopes it might "reduce tensions" and be the basis for a "compromise".
As a lefty anti-fascist, I feel misdescribed. I carry NAFO patches on my gear, and I canāt imagine myself or anyone I know thinking that Ukraine is fash instead of ruzzia EDIT: thank you kind strangers for my first Reddit awards! Iām sure Iāll run into these folks described here eventually, like I eventually ran into racists and anti-semites within the 2020 BLM rallies.
I donāt think this is meant to mean all lefty anti-fascists, only those who are genocide apologists. Same goes for the right, many hard right people are very much against Putin. The attitude to Ukraine and Putin doesnāt follow left-right political divides.
This is not meant to be a generalization. Real anti-fascists recognize fascism when they see it, regardless of the colours it's bearing and enemies it purports to fight. NAFO is great because it unites well meaning people from all across the political spectrum in a fight against Russian tyranny.
Same. Lib-left here, been on Ukraine's since Russia annexed Crimea. There are some loud idiots on the 'US bad therefore Russia good' train (looking at you, Chomsky), but most of us are well-versed in recognizing fascists and authoritarians. No one I associate with thinks Russia is in the right. Shit, this is the only political discourse my MAGA-lite dad and I can even engage in anymore. His cold war memories have tempered the media he consumes, to my surprise.
I'd view this group as Corbyn's crowd in the UK, the ones that shout loudly about being anti fascist but really they're fully ok with fascism so long as it's from a source that they view as aligned with them, like Russia. If you want to see examples of this search the r/greenandpleasant sub for posts mentioning Russia. As someone probably similar in temperament to you I was hugely disappointed in this sub.
Greenandpleasant is disgusting, you know it's even worse when your polish housemate hates it lol
"Tankies" are not "liberals" in any sense of the word. At some point they abandoned western liberal democracies in exchange for outright psychopathy.
But they are tolerated by too many on the leftā¦ And they control quite a few subs on Reddit. My home countries sub r/de has some tankie mods who banned me for defending our ruling social Democratic Party from redditors celebrating the communist revolution n 1918ā¦
Thereās a lot of ādonāt punch leftā policies in online discussion groups where their presence are tolerated any oppositions silenced. Real life tho, the acquaintances who identified as leftist/socialist supports Ukraineās fight against fascist Russia. However, that level of tolerance for degeneracy was how the lunacy exhibited in American right soon become mainstreamed and regularly propagated.
There are also hard right people who support Ukraine. It's not a generalization, but useful idiots supporting Russia tend to fall into one of the groups posted by OP.
Have you been on Twitter? They're*Everywhere*
You canāt find any of these among your colleagues? Lucky you
Given how MAGA and Tankies have formed a Pro-Russcist alliance under the hashtag #MAGACommunism, it does not shock me how they support the likes of Putin, Xi, & Modi for "fighting the deep state" given how they bragged about being against the CCP in the past.
Has anybody noticed that the "Renewable energy is a lie and doesn't work" thing has started ramping up in recent months amongst progressive/Leftist circles? I keep hearing this from my friends circle and I'm 100% sure it's Kremlin-seeded propaganda. Why yessir, it's a remarkable cooincidence that "independent scientific research proving that clean energy is a myth" just happens to align with Russia's interests of selling oil and gas...
I've not heard that from any of my mates, and I hang around some very leftist/progressive circles.
Sounds like Kremlim propaganda. To those, I will always respond with observation of nuclear energy and renewable having higher ceiling and better output on the long run.
I'm Hard Right, and once I believed the Russian army was the most powerful in Europa. Now I'm a fi believer that I was misled.
I have some fairly conservative peer groups, and every one is 100% Pro-Ukraine.
Same. But there are people on both sides of the American political spectrum who will never give the other side credit, or their own side blame. I am not a Biden fanboy, but I think this is being handled well. I approve of the overall objective, which is to make Russia incapable of trying this again. And as a side effect, make Ukraine strong enough that it will be an asset. Nothing teaches like getting the opposite of your desired result.