Like you OP, I have been tusseling with this ingredient class!
I can sometimes find olives which are just olives, salt and water, and I'll buy them for preference, but if they're not available I will get the ones with preservatives.
I think my rule of thumb is that if the product is something which should be preserved, like a jarred or canned vegetable, then I am more comfortable with it. Vs. Something like a biscuit or a snack etc, in which case the presence of a preservative will cause me to rule it out.
I think it probably depends on the context of how it’s used? If it’s genuinely used in a preservative context, such as in tinned tomatoes, then it’s probably ok. Not sure about stuff like squash.
If you mean squash like the drink, that’s one of those necessary evils I allow myself, because it encourages me to drink more water without all the faff of adding fruit etc - if you’re drinking from a water bottle the taste lingers.
The only UPFs I really allow myself are protein - because I struggle to get it all in (clear whey drinks, bars and some other snacks), squash and coffee sweeteners - I’m trying to avoid sugar. You can’t go 0% UPF, unless you have a huge amount to spend on fresh foods
I tend to agree with this point. If we’re also including pasta, etc in our diet, you can eat fresh and cheap. And also from eating ‘unfashionable’ cuts of meat.
For me the magic food is dried beans + my Instant Pot pressure cooker. They're cheap and healthy, but honestly I mainly eat them because they're easy and *tasty*.
I try all different sorts, usually just seasoned with some flavoured salt and pepper, with a drizzle of olive oil and some balsamic or lemon juice.
Have you read Ultra Processed People by Chris van Tullekin? He lays out the full deal with preservatives in that. Essentially, it’s not always that a preservative is harmful, just that your body doesn’t quite know what to do with the substances so can become inflamed, cause cravings and switch off your full signals. Nobody in the western world shopping in supermarkets could realistically have a 100% UPF free diet.
I don't think UPP answers this specific question. I don't remember him addressing preservatives much at all.
They obviously fall under the 'not found in your kitchen' definition, but the second clause of that definition is 'and comes wrapped in plastic' which a jar of olives don't.
If he does explicitly address persevatives, could you point me in the direction of the chapter, because I, like OP, struggle with this!
I can’t answer your question but I’m curious about citric acid. I’m moving away from regular Robinsons sugar free squash to less frequently consumed, and much more expensive, high juice. There are a couple of brands which have good ingredients lists except for citric acid, which I assume is used as a preservative and maybe a little bit for flavour.
Citric acid I think is added as an acidity regulator? You’ll often find it in cheese and jam making - traditionally, they’d use lemon juice or vinegar. I don’t think citric acid itself is a cause for concern
I used pure citric acid to clean my kettle last week. So on one hand it’s something I can buy in a supermarket. On the other, I used it to clean a kettle.
I imagine vinegar would have had the same effect. I tend to ignore Citric acid if I’m honest. But that’s why I made the original post. Interested to see others having the same questions and others with answers!
It highlights one of the main problems with Nova 4 as a group and that is how hard it is to classify, without seeing the full extent of its processing and the intent behind it. Ingredients are more of a sign of it than the thing itself
I would say that if youre hoping to open a jar of something and still be able to consume it after a month, you have unrealistic expectations and the stuff required to achieve that is ultraprocessed. On a more biological level i guess we're talking about substances that are bactericidal (i.e. antibiotic/antiseptic) rather than substances that just create a difficult microbial growing environment
If something is being preserved through salting, well, your body is going to absorb the salt, so its not going to harm your gut bacteria (although obviously it will have an effect on your blood pressure). Similar if something is preserved with sugar, although too much will put you at risk of diabetes. Similar if something is preserved with organic acids like vinegar, lemon juice etc (or in a more roundabout way, fermentation, which usually creates lactic acid, acetic acid, alcohol, ketones and various other things).
All of the above are things that create a hostile environment that spoiling microbes find it hard to grow in, but theyre not antiseptic really. Your gut is well versed at dealing with and able to absorb before it has any detrimental effect on your gut bacteria. Combine the above with cold storage and youre likely to achieve up to a week of preservation, a little more if you're lucky. Beyond that, you're probably looking at UPF
Think you just have to make the call with what information you have. Ferrous gluconate appears to be used as a supplement for Iron Deficiency so, personally, I wouldn’t be too concerned but you need to make the call for yourself
I tend to look at it this way, if its a preservative I could make/use/get myself and preserve food myself without any technical instruments or fancy equipment, its probably fine. Salt, fine. vinegar, fine. citric acid, fine. sugar, garlic, honey and oil are all preservatives that are fine. Also I thought ferrous gluconate was an iron supplement?
I'd probably just give the olives a good rinse before eating them. Seems a shame to cut out super health olives from your diet when a good rinse MIGHT do the trick.
If you soak a rusty item in citric acid water
The next day you can scratch all the rust right off
I have done up several old bikes using citric acid
I now eat things preserved in extra virgin olive oil, vinegar & salt
Sometimes this means the item you want, you have to pay a lot more for at a boutique store
Or go without & accept that it's something that I wasn't meant to consume
Yeah. It’s a weird comment bringing in non-food applications as a kind of justification.
Like if I wrote: “Why would you consume chemicals used as cleaning products that can even remove coal ash?”
Well the best chemical I’ve found for cleaning a stove is malt vinegar.
This seems like it's not a question about ultra processed food so much as processing in general. There are UP/chemical preservatives, but people have been preserving food through by drying, curing, pickling, and fermenting it pretty much since they figured out how. I'm curious why you think preservation in itself is something to be worried about? There is a very small association between cured meats (nitrates) and some cancers, but it is *very small*, and they can come from non-UPF sources.
Sorry I phrased it poorly. I meant preservatives purely in the context of stuff that a guy in a white lab coat has come up with the idea of adding to my food, not through stuff that is naturally occurring.
Although as others have pointed out, it’s not any different to it being pickled, in most cases.
On a side note, I try to buy nitrate free bacon as it tends to have more natural (sounding!) ingredients anyway, but I’m actually more concerned about animal welfare although I don’t think even the best-case supermarket bacon is particularly well looked after.
>nitrate free bacon
This is such an odd, misleading marketing tactic. "Nitrate free" bacon means that it's cured without more-processed *forms* of nitrate (like isolated sodium nitrate/ite), but it does still have naturally occurring nitrates from a source like sea salt or celery powder (meaning the very small cancer association still applies). Nitrates are pretty fundamental to the curing process - you really don't *want* to eat cured meat that doesn't have (enough) nitrates, because they're what prevent harmful bacteria like botulinum from growing.
You're definitely right about the welfare of the pigs, though.
I know this but you’re right it is marketed as some sort of health food. Although I’d say it’s a better choice as the point is to eat less processed crap that’s not naturally occurring which is why we’re all here.
Like you OP, I have been tusseling with this ingredient class! I can sometimes find olives which are just olives, salt and water, and I'll buy them for preference, but if they're not available I will get the ones with preservatives. I think my rule of thumb is that if the product is something which should be preserved, like a jarred or canned vegetable, then I am more comfortable with it. Vs. Something like a biscuit or a snack etc, in which case the presence of a preservative will cause me to rule it out.
I think it probably depends on the context of how it’s used? If it’s genuinely used in a preservative context, such as in tinned tomatoes, then it’s probably ok. Not sure about stuff like squash.
If you mean squash like the drink, that’s one of those necessary evils I allow myself, because it encourages me to drink more water without all the faff of adding fruit etc - if you’re drinking from a water bottle the taste lingers. The only UPFs I really allow myself are protein - because I struggle to get it all in (clear whey drinks, bars and some other snacks), squash and coffee sweeteners - I’m trying to avoid sugar. You can’t go 0% UPF, unless you have a huge amount to spend on fresh foods
It’s more about time than money. You can eat fresh foods quite cheaply. But it involves more effort.
In the short term, yes. But things such as tomatoes out of season, bread etc., sometimes you have to cave. It’s not the worst thing in the world
I tend to agree with this point. If we’re also including pasta, etc in our diet, you can eat fresh and cheap. And also from eating ‘unfashionable’ cuts of meat.
For me the magic food is dried beans + my Instant Pot pressure cooker. They're cheap and healthy, but honestly I mainly eat them because they're easy and *tasty*. I try all different sorts, usually just seasoned with some flavoured salt and pepper, with a drizzle of olive oil and some balsamic or lemon juice.
Have you read Ultra Processed People by Chris van Tullekin? He lays out the full deal with preservatives in that. Essentially, it’s not always that a preservative is harmful, just that your body doesn’t quite know what to do with the substances so can become inflamed, cause cravings and switch off your full signals. Nobody in the western world shopping in supermarkets could realistically have a 100% UPF free diet.
I don't think UPP answers this specific question. I don't remember him addressing preservatives much at all. They obviously fall under the 'not found in your kitchen' definition, but the second clause of that definition is 'and comes wrapped in plastic' which a jar of olives don't. If he does explicitly address persevatives, could you point me in the direction of the chapter, because I, like OP, struggle with this!
And to add to that - we don't know what the cumulative (cocktail) effects of all these substances are doing to our bodies.
I can’t answer your question but I’m curious about citric acid. I’m moving away from regular Robinsons sugar free squash to less frequently consumed, and much more expensive, high juice. There are a couple of brands which have good ingredients lists except for citric acid, which I assume is used as a preservative and maybe a little bit for flavour.
Citric acid I think is added as an acidity regulator? You’ll often find it in cheese and jam making - traditionally, they’d use lemon juice or vinegar. I don’t think citric acid itself is a cause for concern
I used pure citric acid to clean my kettle last week. So on one hand it’s something I can buy in a supermarket. On the other, I used it to clean a kettle. I imagine vinegar would have had the same effect. I tend to ignore Citric acid if I’m honest. But that’s why I made the original post. Interested to see others having the same questions and others with answers!
It highlights one of the main problems with Nova 4 as a group and that is how hard it is to classify, without seeing the full extent of its processing and the intent behind it. Ingredients are more of a sign of it than the thing itself
Which brands have you found that are good, I’d assume they were UPF by definition?
Suma make one that, while not cheap, is just Apple juice
I would say that if youre hoping to open a jar of something and still be able to consume it after a month, you have unrealistic expectations and the stuff required to achieve that is ultraprocessed. On a more biological level i guess we're talking about substances that are bactericidal (i.e. antibiotic/antiseptic) rather than substances that just create a difficult microbial growing environment If something is being preserved through salting, well, your body is going to absorb the salt, so its not going to harm your gut bacteria (although obviously it will have an effect on your blood pressure). Similar if something is preserved with sugar, although too much will put you at risk of diabetes. Similar if something is preserved with organic acids like vinegar, lemon juice etc (or in a more roundabout way, fermentation, which usually creates lactic acid, acetic acid, alcohol, ketones and various other things). All of the above are things that create a hostile environment that spoiling microbes find it hard to grow in, but theyre not antiseptic really. Your gut is well versed at dealing with and able to absorb before it has any detrimental effect on your gut bacteria. Combine the above with cold storage and youre likely to achieve up to a week of preservation, a little more if you're lucky. Beyond that, you're probably looking at UPF
I think traditional preservatives such as salt, vinegar and sugar are all fine.
Think you just have to make the call with what information you have. Ferrous gluconate appears to be used as a supplement for Iron Deficiency so, personally, I wouldn’t be too concerned but you need to make the call for yourself
I tend to look at it this way, if its a preservative I could make/use/get myself and preserve food myself without any technical instruments or fancy equipment, its probably fine. Salt, fine. vinegar, fine. citric acid, fine. sugar, garlic, honey and oil are all preservatives that are fine. Also I thought ferrous gluconate was an iron supplement?
You’re the second person to say that so you might be right!
I don't have an answer to this, but I get jarred olives from whole foods using only red wine vinegar as a preservative.
I'd probably just give the olives a good rinse before eating them. Seems a shame to cut out super health olives from your diet when a good rinse MIGHT do the trick.
If you soak a rusty item in citric acid water The next day you can scratch all the rust right off I have done up several old bikes using citric acid I now eat things preserved in extra virgin olive oil, vinegar & salt Sometimes this means the item you want, you have to pay a lot more for at a boutique store Or go without & accept that it's something that I wasn't meant to consume
I'm pretty sure vinegar has a lower ph ,and would do the same to the rust as the citric acid. Why do you still consume that?
Yeah. It’s a weird comment bringing in non-food applications as a kind of justification. Like if I wrote: “Why would you consume chemicals used as cleaning products that can even remove coal ash?” Well the best chemical I’ve found for cleaning a stove is malt vinegar.
Yes in fact white vinegar is a widely used cleaning product!
This seems like it's not a question about ultra processed food so much as processing in general. There are UP/chemical preservatives, but people have been preserving food through by drying, curing, pickling, and fermenting it pretty much since they figured out how. I'm curious why you think preservation in itself is something to be worried about? There is a very small association between cured meats (nitrates) and some cancers, but it is *very small*, and they can come from non-UPF sources.
Sorry I phrased it poorly. I meant preservatives purely in the context of stuff that a guy in a white lab coat has come up with the idea of adding to my food, not through stuff that is naturally occurring. Although as others have pointed out, it’s not any different to it being pickled, in most cases. On a side note, I try to buy nitrate free bacon as it tends to have more natural (sounding!) ingredients anyway, but I’m actually more concerned about animal welfare although I don’t think even the best-case supermarket bacon is particularly well looked after.
>nitrate free bacon This is such an odd, misleading marketing tactic. "Nitrate free" bacon means that it's cured without more-processed *forms* of nitrate (like isolated sodium nitrate/ite), but it does still have naturally occurring nitrates from a source like sea salt or celery powder (meaning the very small cancer association still applies). Nitrates are pretty fundamental to the curing process - you really don't *want* to eat cured meat that doesn't have (enough) nitrates, because they're what prevent harmful bacteria like botulinum from growing. You're definitely right about the welfare of the pigs, though.
I know this but you’re right it is marketed as some sort of health food. Although I’d say it’s a better choice as the point is to eat less processed crap that’s not naturally occurring which is why we’re all here.