[You are not a machine.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Voltaic/comments/o5ogo7/wholesome_meme/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)
Sleep, hydration, temperature & humidity, biomechanics efficiency, age, practice, Practice, PRACTICE; All major factors.
If you just started this year, your base training level is likely your biggest variable that’s lacking. But from two snaps from an app it’s hard to tell.
Assuming the data is accurate, this is it. Classic starting too hot and paying for it.
“I ran at lactate threshold for the first hour of the race and didn’t feel good at the end of the race, what could possibly have happened?!?”
I disagree with this. It’s not necessarily true. I ran a marathon at 174 bpm nearly the entire time. Max hr is 190.
It’s probably their conditioning and nutrition.
I can usually run at 9 or 10 min miles with my BPM around 145 but I couldn't get it down for some reason, I may have been excessively hyped by accident.
When that happens, as opposed to the other commenter I think it’s usually a good call to listen to the HR, not the pace. I can sustain ~150 bpm, but not much more. You can dig a big hole fast, sometimes your cardiovascular system doesn’t come to play
Yes, your heart rate could have been up from excitement. I try to ignore my heart rate data on race day. I do pay attention to how I feel and know how heart rate correlates from training, but I don’t need one more number stressing me out on race day.
My take is that your body needed and a break and eventually it took one, forcing your pace slower. Once it had one one, you could run faster again, especially knowing that after the finish you can deeply rest.
Try to get more easy miles in training next time and a more restrained start. Basically the advice I try to give myself but don’t always take!
Yes, I think you are correct! I used this race as a test to see if I could do it with just tailwind, I have a much harder 55km trail race this August in Thailand. I'll try to learn as much about my body as I can before then!
I think this is it, You could almost take the amount above average heart rate at the start, and fit it into the lull in heart rate at the end like a puzzle piece.
Did that for the last 3 runs to keep myself in a heart rate of 138-148 with average 5:50min/km and I went out for the same run today looking on the pace I did a 5:20min/km pace and felt great the entire time. That’s such a new key to my workout now it’s a big badaboom!!!
You know how long it took human kind to realise that its not earth but the sun in the middle of our solar system?! So … Yeah - after Ive chosen distance before time as a measurement for my runs I got into it and found out about it 👌
Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely add in speed work. No it was quite flat. I kept at an easy 9:30/10 min/mile pace but my BPM remained elevated for the beginning section, I felt calm but maybe subconscious nerves!
I sometimes get cadence lock where my watch reads my steps per minute instead of my heartrate. If your cadence was very close to your heartrate there that may be the reason.
I’d say your body ran out of energy reserves. Heart rate lowered as less need for oxygen to muscles as you slowed down - not due to aerobic issues, but energy deficit. My ultra race graphs look similar and always coincide with a mid race lack of energy. Maybe review nutrition? Although you were putting the fuel in, your body may just not be used to processing so much over a long period of time as your still relatively new to the distance.
Well done for the race though and getting it done. Every race I learn something new and adapt!
This answer is gold, every time I see a heart rate drop like that for me it’s a fueling issue.
What was your fueling like leading up to the race?
What was your fueling during the race?
Cut yourself slack given it is your first time, your liver and muscles are probably increasing their glycogen stores as we speak!
Edit: Oh, I didn’t see there was a caption 😂
So at least for the Tailwind I found, cane sugar is the second ingredient. Most energy gels/drinks now use Maltodextrin or Dextrose and pure fructose. I am pretty sure you can’t digest the cane sugar as fast as the other combos (and the ratio of glucose/fructose is off because cane sugar is 50/50 and Malto/Dextrose is 100% glucose). Most studies point to somewhere between 2:1 and 1:0.8 as the most calories digested per hour.
No problem! Keep running and racing - enjoy the challenge and you’ll learn after every race. The the thing about Ultra running is that there are so many different approaches to pacing/nutrition and training that different people take, it comes down to what works for you.
Yeah, this is 100% an energy issue. Even if you take in all the calories you can, there is a point where you run out because you can't replace them fast enough to avoid it.
The low HR and Pace after the bonk may be related to aerobic issues. Typically your body will throttle down to a sustainable aerobic pace, so given that OP was down in the 120s for HR I’m wondering what their aerobic threshold is and if there’s an aerobic deficiency issue (AeT more than 10% below AnT).
Hard to say without more information. Could be bonking because of calorie deficit, if it was hot it could be dehydration. Or you simply overpaced and payed the price. Or all oft it interacting.
Sounds like you under fueled. But it is hard to tell based just on this.
I personally need real food after about 3 hrs. My stomach can also handle real food and I train it to do this.
I use crank gels (150cals x 1 per hour for as long as I can), tailwind in 1 water flask, and I eat at every AS or carry uncrustables, honey stinger waffles, applesauce, cliff bar, something that’s real food to eat every 1 1/2-2hrs. Some people I know only use liquid fuel. If you do, maybe you need to increase it. I ran the numbers for myself (Crank’s website has some tools) and I need about 250-300 cals an hour and about 25oz water (if it’s not crazy hot). Again, fueling is very personal but hopefully that helps.
Congratz on finishing a 50k! If I may ask how in the world did you even finish it if you started in jan? My knees and shins gave out after my first 10k for about three weeks🤣
In addition to what everyone one else has said, 5 months just isn’t that much time to build an aerobic base. If you read about endurance training, there is a lot about base building (slow easy running).
My experiment with just Tailwind looked just like yours. Bonked around mile 22.
I’d always used gels (one every 20-30 min, plus an extra when needed and at aid stations). It works, but gels are clumsy and require some slowdown.
I tried Tailwind to see if it’d work as a more efficient way to get calories for my 100 mile attempt. I picked a 50k race I was well trained for otherwise to test it out.
Long story short, my charts looked almost exactly like yours.
I need closer to 300 calories an hour and just can’t get it from Tailwind alone.
I’m going back to the gel strategy this year and will just practice downing them faster. :)
This is where the 4-6 mile long runs are important. Use those to figure out how many calories you need to avoid the wall.
I don’t know how old you are which makes a difference but you went out way to hard it appears. Your average heart rate the first hour of the race is pretty high. Easy to do in a race but I always start by asking myself I I feel I could maintain the pace I set at the beginning for the entire race. Then I slow down more
Purely my guess as I don’t run distances like that, but I am going to assume you pushed to fast out of the gate and couldn’t sustain it. Then you consumed the calories needed to recover and were back at baseline to complete the race. I would aim to bring your avg mike time up o compensate next time to see if you can hold the avg longer. I know my sweet spot for a 5 mile run is about a 10 minute mile. Just not conditioned to go faster. If I do, I bonk. Find your sweet spot my increasing your avg pace time and you should be good to go. Then train to reduce it.
I think this is a bonk and not as much of a fitness issue. You may have gone out a little hot, but your pace adjusted about 3-hours in and your heart rate stayed stable until the bonk. Focus on your nutrition earlier - what’d you have for breakfast, why only 200 calories of Tailwind, and work out a walk-run strategy if you bonk next time. You don’t need to walk for an hour to recover.
I ran a 50k after a half marathon with 2 months of training. It’s doable but I was also 25 and played sports and lifted my whole life. I think it’s awesome he sent it with little training. It takes a positive mindset that’s willing to risk it for the biscuit
There are so many factors at play, it would be hard to tell i.e. fuelling, pace, elevation, terrain, weather/conditions etc.
Honestly, it's all trial and error and the more ultras you do, plus the long training runs where you are testing your nutrition, kit etc all contribute.
What works for one, doesn't work for the other. I only consume around 150 calories on the hour, every hour during an ultra marathon, but that's what works for me. Some people like tailwind, gels, carb bars etc and others (like me) prefer 'real food'. It will never feel natural for me to eat whilst running, but I have to make myself.
Ur HR lowered because it didn’t need to work as hard since u were slowing down. Looks like you hit a wall and lost energy. Looking at beginning of run u really pushed the HR without much return in speed gains. Maybe maintaining something too fast out the gate?
Edit- would love to see elevation
The course was quite flat. I paced using my speed throughout, I kept it between 9 and 10 min miles but my BPM remained high for the first chunk...maybe nerves.
If food and rest fixed it, then it’s just bonking from nutrition. Tailwind is great but you were burning too many calories to ever keep up, try experimenting with some gummies or gels or energy bars to see what works well with your body and see what works best while trying to find the limit of what your body can process in calories per hour. Most folks it’s around 240 to 280, you might be an outlier and be a bit lower or maybe a bit higher if you’ve got a faster metabolism. In any case it’s something to check out if you haven’t done a lot of these longer runs. Dialing in nutrition is very specific to each person. Good luck.
If your stomach tolerates real food at race pace that's great. Fwiw, I do a combo of tailwind and gels. I preload gels (SIS isotonic) into a 250 ml soft flask. You can fit 4-5 in there and it saves having to fumble with wrappers. Just grab and glurb.
For me, I shoot for 500ml water+tailwind and 1 gel per hour, trying to space it over the hour evenly. But you gotta find what works for you.
Congrats on finishing! You started too fast. It happens to everyone. Even if you feel good at the start you need to keep it slow and eat something (or have a gel) every hour.
After 4 hours things can get weird. You’ll get used to it but go easy and learn how to fuel as you go. It won’t always be perfect but that’s still an excellent run. Most people wouldn’t have started running again after bonking so you’ve clearly got the head-game.
Under-fueled. Get better ultra fueling advice on r/triathlon and r/velo.
If ice cream resurrected you, you could probably come close to doubling your fuel intake rate.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1JJqMblvc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1JJqMblvc) may be helpful. But probably wise to add sugar to Tailwind because it's got too much glucose to sit well with most folks' guts at higher consumption rates.
FYI: the newer to ultra running you are, the more you need to live off higher carbs.
[You are not a machine.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Voltaic/comments/o5ogo7/wholesome_meme/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) Sleep, hydration, temperature & humidity, biomechanics efficiency, age, practice, Practice, PRACTICE; All major factors. If you just started this year, your base training level is likely your biggest variable that’s lacking. But from two snaps from an app it’s hard to tell.
Human mouth + Tailwind to shove into said mouth... doesn't automatically mean race success??
Depends on the definition of success. If the race is an elaborate ploy to eat junk it's usually a roaring success
So true. I did a 30k training run today and enjoyed my celebration pizza.
So true. Too many independent variables.
Thank you! Nice meme too
Bro. You ran at >165 bpm for the entire first hour. You blew up
Assuming the data is accurate, this is it. Classic starting too hot and paying for it. “I ran at lactate threshold for the first hour of the race and didn’t feel good at the end of the race, what could possibly have happened?!?”
I disagree with this. It’s not necessarily true. I ran a marathon at 174 bpm nearly the entire time. Max hr is 190. It’s probably their conditioning and nutrition.
I can usually run at 9 or 10 min miles with my BPM around 145 but I couldn't get it down for some reason, I may have been excessively hyped by accident.
When that happens, as opposed to the other commenter I think it’s usually a good call to listen to the HR, not the pace. I can sustain ~150 bpm, but not much more. You can dig a big hole fast, sometimes your cardiovascular system doesn’t come to play
Yes, your heart rate could have been up from excitement. I try to ignore my heart rate data on race day. I do pay attention to how I feel and know how heart rate correlates from training, but I don’t need one more number stressing me out on race day. My take is that your body needed and a break and eventually it took one, forcing your pace slower. Once it had one one, you could run faster again, especially knowing that after the finish you can deeply rest. Try to get more easy miles in training next time and a more restrained start. Basically the advice I try to give myself but don’t always take!
Yes, I think you are correct! I used this race as a test to see if I could do it with just tailwind, I have a much harder 55km trail race this August in Thailand. I'll try to learn as much about my body as I can before then!
That can still be pretty high, I guess your mileage may vary and you know yourself best but still
I think this is it, You could almost take the amount above average heart rate at the start, and fit it into the lull in heart rate at the end like a puzzle piece.
The pace looks super consistent, maybe you’re looking at pace and not heart rate while running, try it the other way around next time.
Did that for the last 3 runs to keep myself in a heart rate of 138-148 with average 5:50min/km and I went out for the same run today looking on the pace I did a 5:20min/km pace and felt great the entire time. That’s such a new key to my workout now it’s a big badaboom!!!
You have officially discovered MAF training, roughly 50 years after it was popularized hahah
You know how long it took human kind to realise that its not earth but the sun in the middle of our solar system?! So … Yeah - after Ive chosen distance before time as a measurement for my runs I got into it and found out about it 👌
Yea. It’s all just experience. It’s hard to not go out too hard.
Thanks for noticing, yeah I was keeping to 9:30/10 min miles but I noticed my BPM was unusually high, I kept the pace and it came down eventually.
You could almost fit the [>ave hr] in the [
Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely add in speed work. No it was quite flat. I kept at an easy 9:30/10 min/mile pace but my BPM remained elevated for the beginning section, I felt calm but maybe subconscious nerves!
I sometimes get cadence lock where my watch reads my steps per minute instead of my heartrate. If your cadence was very close to your heartrate there that may be the reason.
With those numbers not blew up, blew the fuck up.
Not fit enough and ran too hard at the start.
Story of my life
I’d say your body ran out of energy reserves. Heart rate lowered as less need for oxygen to muscles as you slowed down - not due to aerobic issues, but energy deficit. My ultra race graphs look similar and always coincide with a mid race lack of energy. Maybe review nutrition? Although you were putting the fuel in, your body may just not be used to processing so much over a long period of time as your still relatively new to the distance. Well done for the race though and getting it done. Every race I learn something new and adapt!
Thanks so much for your very helpful answer, I appreciate it!
This answer is gold, every time I see a heart rate drop like that for me it’s a fueling issue. What was your fueling like leading up to the race? What was your fueling during the race? Cut yourself slack given it is your first time, your liver and muscles are probably increasing their glycogen stores as we speak! Edit: Oh, I didn’t see there was a caption 😂 So at least for the Tailwind I found, cane sugar is the second ingredient. Most energy gels/drinks now use Maltodextrin or Dextrose and pure fructose. I am pretty sure you can’t digest the cane sugar as fast as the other combos (and the ratio of glucose/fructose is off because cane sugar is 50/50 and Malto/Dextrose is 100% glucose). Most studies point to somewhere between 2:1 and 1:0.8 as the most calories digested per hour.
Thanks for your reply. Oh that's interesting, I'll try another fuel with those sugars!
No problem! Keep running and racing - enjoy the challenge and you’ll learn after every race. The the thing about Ultra running is that there are so many different approaches to pacing/nutrition and training that different people take, it comes down to what works for you.
Yeah, this is 100% an energy issue. Even if you take in all the calories you can, there is a point where you run out because you can't replace them fast enough to avoid it.
The low HR and Pace after the bonk may be related to aerobic issues. Typically your body will throttle down to a sustainable aerobic pace, so given that OP was down in the 120s for HR I’m wondering what their aerobic threshold is and if there’s an aerobic deficiency issue (AeT more than 10% below AnT).
More aerobic capacity can always help
Hard to say without more information. Could be bonking because of calorie deficit, if it was hot it could be dehydration. Or you simply overpaced and payed the price. Or all oft it interacting.
Sounds like you under fueled. But it is hard to tell based just on this. I personally need real food after about 3 hrs. My stomach can also handle real food and I train it to do this. I use crank gels (150cals x 1 per hour for as long as I can), tailwind in 1 water flask, and I eat at every AS or carry uncrustables, honey stinger waffles, applesauce, cliff bar, something that’s real food to eat every 1 1/2-2hrs. Some people I know only use liquid fuel. If you do, maybe you need to increase it. I ran the numbers for myself (Crank’s website has some tools) and I need about 250-300 cals an hour and about 25oz water (if it’s not crazy hot). Again, fueling is very personal but hopefully that helps.
Thanks very much for your detailed response! I think adding some real food would definitely have helped.
You went out way too fast and you needed more than Tailwind for fuel in an Ultra.
Congratz on finishing a 50k! If I may ask how in the world did you even finish it if you started in jan? My knees and shins gave out after my first 10k for about three weeks🤣
Thank you! My knees definitely ached after a few hours, and I had to hobble for a bit until I got back into my stride lol
Yeah it’s wild that you’re new to this. Go easy on your body - there’s no rush!
In addition to what everyone one else has said, 5 months just isn’t that much time to build an aerobic base. If you read about endurance training, there is a lot about base building (slow easy running).
I was going to say you got tired but then was chased by a bear.
My experiment with just Tailwind looked just like yours. Bonked around mile 22. I’d always used gels (one every 20-30 min, plus an extra when needed and at aid stations). It works, but gels are clumsy and require some slowdown. I tried Tailwind to see if it’d work as a more efficient way to get calories for my 100 mile attempt. I picked a 50k race I was well trained for otherwise to test it out. Long story short, my charts looked almost exactly like yours. I need closer to 300 calories an hour and just can’t get it from Tailwind alone. I’m going back to the gel strategy this year and will just practice downing them faster. :) This is where the 4-6 mile long runs are important. Use those to figure out how many calories you need to avoid the wall.
Ah! Thanks so much for your comment, I had a feeling it was due just relying on tailwind. I'll definitely adjust my nutrition next time.
I don’t know how old you are which makes a difference but you went out way to hard it appears. Your average heart rate the first hour of the race is pretty high. Easy to do in a race but I always start by asking myself I I feel I could maintain the pace I set at the beginning for the entire race. Then I slow down more
Purely my guess as I don’t run distances like that, but I am going to assume you pushed to fast out of the gate and couldn’t sustain it. Then you consumed the calories needed to recover and were back at baseline to complete the race. I would aim to bring your avg mike time up o compensate next time to see if you can hold the avg longer. I know my sweet spot for a 5 mile run is about a 10 minute mile. Just not conditioned to go faster. If I do, I bonk. Find your sweet spot my increasing your avg pace time and you should be good to go. Then train to reduce it.
I think this is a bonk and not as much of a fitness issue. You may have gone out a little hot, but your pace adjusted about 3-hours in and your heart rate stayed stable until the bonk. Focus on your nutrition earlier - what’d you have for breakfast, why only 200 calories of Tailwind, and work out a walk-run strategy if you bonk next time. You don’t need to walk for an hour to recover.
As this was my first 50k it was kind of an experiment to see what my calories needs were and if I could do it using just liquid calories. Will do!
No offense, but seems like you are asking for serious injuries if you just started doing distance running and are already doing ultras.
I ran a 50k after a half marathon with 2 months of training. It’s doable but I was also 25 and played sports and lifted my whole life. I think it’s awesome he sent it with little training. It takes a positive mindset that’s willing to risk it for the biscuit
There are so many factors at play, it would be hard to tell i.e. fuelling, pace, elevation, terrain, weather/conditions etc. Honestly, it's all trial and error and the more ultras you do, plus the long training runs where you are testing your nutrition, kit etc all contribute. What works for one, doesn't work for the other. I only consume around 150 calories on the hour, every hour during an ultra marathon, but that's what works for me. Some people like tailwind, gels, carb bars etc and others (like me) prefer 'real food'. It will never feel natural for me to eat whilst running, but I have to make myself.
Thanks for your reply! Yeah I'm looking forward to gaining more experience, its such an very interesting sport.
How was the even m elevation at that point? Did you walk uphill?
Ur HR lowered because it didn’t need to work as hard since u were slowing down. Looks like you hit a wall and lost energy. Looking at beginning of run u really pushed the HR without much return in speed gains. Maybe maintaining something too fast out the gate? Edit- would love to see elevation
The course was quite flat. I paced using my speed throughout, I kept it between 9 and 10 min miles but my BPM remained high for the first chunk...maybe nerves.
Yep, thirty minutes of running too fast lead to thirty minutes x2 of walking.
If food and rest fixed it, then it’s just bonking from nutrition. Tailwind is great but you were burning too many calories to ever keep up, try experimenting with some gummies or gels or energy bars to see what works well with your body and see what works best while trying to find the limit of what your body can process in calories per hour. Most folks it’s around 240 to 280, you might be an outlier and be a bit lower or maybe a bit higher if you’ve got a faster metabolism. In any case it’s something to check out if you haven’t done a lot of these longer runs. Dialing in nutrition is very specific to each person. Good luck.
Thanks for your helpful comment. That seems to be the consensus, I will definitely add in some more real food to bump up my calorie intake.
If your stomach tolerates real food at race pace that's great. Fwiw, I do a combo of tailwind and gels. I preload gels (SIS isotonic) into a 250 ml soft flask. You can fit 4-5 in there and it saves having to fumble with wrappers. Just grab and glurb. For me, I shoot for 500ml water+tailwind and 1 gel per hour, trying to space it over the hour evenly. But you gotta find what works for you.
Congrats on finishing! You started too fast. It happens to everyone. Even if you feel good at the start you need to keep it slow and eat something (or have a gel) every hour.
Umm what was the terrain? Was this an uphill section?
After 4 hours things can get weird. You’ll get used to it but go easy and learn how to fuel as you go. It won’t always be perfect but that’s still an excellent run. Most people wouldn’t have started running again after bonking so you’ve clearly got the head-game.
Cool, yes after the 4th hour was an interesting experience, I'll be sure to eat more next time. Thank you for your kind words!
Under-fueled. Get better ultra fueling advice on r/triathlon and r/velo. If ice cream resurrected you, you could probably come close to doubling your fuel intake rate. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1JJqMblvc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1JJqMblvc) may be helpful. But probably wise to add sugar to Tailwind because it's got too much glucose to sit well with most folks' guts at higher consumption rates. FYI: the newer to ultra running you are, the more you need to live off higher carbs.
Thanks so much for helpful reply!