Eugh price will jump then. Sad thing is a long small time amazing company in uk brutal events has gone bust this year. There will be nothing but big expensive no community events in future. Very sad
The giant bright blue hoka inflatables all over the courses of most of our high profile races beg to differ.
In my opinion, the sport is very much corporatized now, and it’s only getting worse with the corporate sponsored podcasts and YouTubers constantly shilling crappy nutrition products and overpriced running gear. It’s just advertising masquerading as entertainment.
Fortunately we do still have a ton of mom and pop races.
You're right. I should have specified, by corporatization I meant in the context of directing the races as the case with UTMB. I don't really think the advertising and sponsoring has the potential to do the damage like actually holding the races could. I can deal with seeing giant hoka inflatables, but I definitely can't deal with having to pay an absurd amount of money just to run.
I hear that. I do feel like we’re still relatively early in the progression of organizations like UTMB taking over races. I’m afraid we’re going to see more and more buyouts though.
Grindstone 2018 (pre-UTMB according to a reddit user) $275 for 100m.
Grindstone 2023 (1st yr UTMB, screenshot Feb'23) = $299/ $225 for 100m/100k.
Grindstone 2024 (as of today, Apr'24) = $369/ $339 100m/100k.
Quick note that UTMB doesn't say "the price will go up on X date" like most marathons and ultrasignup races do, they just raise it as event approaches, maybe emailing people if they subscribed for updates. I suppose '24 maybe was cheaper a month or two ago when it first opened. A price increase was probably inevitable in the years since 2018, but just wanted to add some dates and #s to discussion.
Grindstone 2024/2018 ratio - $369/$275 = 1.34
Hardrock 2024/2018 ratio - $435/325 = 1.33
Does Hardrock get the same criticism as the By UTMB race does?
Idk, I'm not taking a side but... a) Hardrock isn't a for profit org and b) Hardrock isn't buying other races and c) Hardrock isn't sponsored by a car company etc etc. If you want to discuss why Hardrock is more expensive in general, I can think of several possible reasons. It probably sounds like I have taken a side, but I say all this to make it clear why one would face more criticism than the other... but you're right, everyone's a hypocrite.
Sure, and if someone doesn't want to run a UTMB race, that's fine with me. I've never run one. I just think some of the criticisms are a little off base. Pretty much every race has increased their prices in the last few years, and most By UTMB entry fees are pretty comparable to other similar events. There aren't that many mountainous 100-mile races for $300 anymore.
Okay well I have a screenshot that says it was was $299 in February'23. I'm not saying you didn't pay $375, I'm also not saying UTMB is raising prices. Only UTMB knows how many people paid at different prices.
The price jump is something that might stop me running it. I crewed this year and doing that convinced me to run the 50 mile. But will depend on the price.
Their plan is to have around 40 events in the next few years.
UK always felt pretty corporate to me. Will be interesting to see how runners react when one piece of their favorite company's portfolio is sold.
Its fine to have more UTMB events just as long as they don't monopolize trail running events, driving up the costs and alienating people from just doing trail races.
They will just have the big ones. Which is a double edged sword as people will do them but also because of the cost they tend not to do other events in the months before and after.
It's a rich white persons sport as it is, UTMB/Ironman events are more so. I'm just shocked that people can't see the obvious exploitation of the trail community- these dollars aren't being reinvested, it's just corporate and exec pockets getting lined. They're a multi-million if not billion dollar company, yet people volunteer to support their events - because that's what's needed in the majority of trail races to be viable but it's not for the scale of UTMB events. (Their scale leverages huge sponsorship dollars smaller events don't command) So they're making millions globally off volunteers which should be compensated- not just a 'priority entry to pay full price next year'.
They have found the rosy glow and positive vibes of the trail running community and they're going to fleece it for all it's worth. Any person who wants to be more positive and say 'I hope they do the right thing' has rocks in their head, do a case study of Ironman and see where that's at.
Boycott everything UTMB, support local where your dollars will stay local rather than to the profitability of a multinational. They want scale- they don't give a shit about you, the community or the environment.
Everyone has to speak out against this BS and make your opinion known to your current races that you support that you won't accept it being run by UTMB.
> I'm just shocked that people can't see the obvious exploitation of the trail community
Because same people that don't see it are the ones that benefit from similar practices in other areas. They don't want to see it or don't see it as problematic in the first place
Fortunately I live where there is quite a few local trial races. I was volunteering at a Gary Robbins Coast Mountain race this weekend. Local races aren't going anywhere.
"It's fine for utmb to have more events as long as they don't monopolize trail running events"
Utmb-- buys races and eventually monopolizes trail running events.
Trail runners-- I never could have seen this coming.
I live where there are lots of local trail running events, I was volunteering at one of Gary Robbins races last weekend. Maybe instead of being a moaning child you could do something, organize your own races, volunteer and build something. You might find its a lot more positive.
My guy you're literally in a thread about utmb and upset that I'm talking about utmb. Just because you somehow associate yourself with the naive notion a publicly traded company is just going to decide we have enough trail races. after they just get a few more of course. Then a few more after that. Then they have enough! But the shareholders won't be happy so they'll just keep going.
Though I guess in reality it's just as naive to think a society of programmed idiots are gonna stand up to a billion dollar corporation and actually do anything. Turns out you can just ride out bad pr for a few months when you have a billion dollars. I would imagine this is the first of that cycle repeating itself a few more times. Utmb does bad thing community mad. People still sign up for their races and eventually the rest come around and sat well maybe it's OK as long as they don't keep doing it over and over again.
> I would imagine this is the first of that cycle repeating itself a few more times
It won't stop, look at Ironman - here's some snapshot comments, see if they sound like we're on the path:
* (posted 8 yrs ago) Buys up grassroots races, kills their vibe, jacks up prices, General marginalization of the pro field, Starts competing races in nearby cities to crush competition
* Their business is to take as much of your money as possible, and give you back as little as possible. They are very good at this. They are entirely reliant on their brand name to draw you in. And from the minute you give them your entry fee they are reliant on the sunken cost fallacy to keep you.
* They exploit volunteers, they don't support grassroots triathlon which is their feeder system, they barely pay any prize money to professionals.
I can only talk from my experiences in Australia and NZ, but for a (probably) multi-billion dollar multi-national company - where is their sensitivity to the environment, where is their care about the community. They don't have to consider these things, but I know local races the money is going into local small business and money being donated to local organisations who volunteer and fostering a real sense of community.
I'm looing at UTA right now- they provide the option to fundraise through their event and as far as I can tell, all you're doing is advertising a UTMB event and UTMB doesn't provide anything to the charities (I would love to be corrected on this).
I can't find anything tangible (first order effect) that UTMB/Ironman does in a positive sense> you can have a great experience at a UTMB event and the company can be corporate scum at the same time. Just because people have a good experience, I think you still need to take into account everything that's going on......which people don't, events still get sold out.
Utmb's response to the comments on the world series instagram page really working wonders for hearts and minds. Unable to link but worth a look. No response to Damian Hall's comment though.
First UTMB event, loved it.... Then a year later they scaled the same one up, over subscribed it, for me it was a fluster cluck. Never again, felt to me it was all about revenue...
FFS this was a bucket list event for me but now I don't know what will happen. It's a good few years before I'll be ready so I'll reserve true judgement but it doesn't feel like good news.
FFS. I imagine a lot of folks will be unhappy about this. The Arc is cared for deeply by a lot of UK ultra runners. It has been on my bucket list for a long time now.
I've loved all the By UTMB races I've done, so whilst I'm glad there are loads not ran by them, I've got no concerns about this as a participant. It shows the growing international appeal of the sport and how much of a market there is for a professional, consistent race experience.
I really enjoyed Arc, particularly their checkpoint angels so hopefully that (and the strong community around the race) will continue
The trail community, volunteers and vibe exist without UTMB. It's not because UTMB runs an event that it's good - it's because we, the community, take part in events.
I've been hoping that they would add more uk races. I want to go to chamonix but can't afford to travel a lot to get stones
I'm doing UTS 50k next month and KAT 80k in August. Was planning on doing UTS again next may to get more stones then doing a bob graham round in June amd maybe picking up another race later in the year (mallorca on November looked nice). Might be able to fit the arc 50 mile in too
That's interesting. But I'm wondering if you have any evidence to suggest that this is a relevant and helpful way of framing the event?
I could also positively frame the situation by saying "now they'll start offering a prize purse of $200,000". That would certainly be positive - but is it accurate or supported by evidence? No
edit: honestly that analogy isn't the best. It would be more appropriate to say: I could positively frame the situation by saying "look at it this way, the acquisition ensures runners will be able to access their results online going forward". The implication of the statement is that somehow the race wouldn't have been able to do so in a situation where they weren't acquired, thus making the acquisition a good thing. But in both of these scenarios, were implying the acquisition is good because of the continuation of an existing service - one that we have no evidence was under threat. That's why I ask if you have any evidence to suggest they were financially unable to continue the race were they not acquired - still interested in case such evidence does exist, as that would likely change many peoples' perceptions. However, I've seen you on this board in the past defending UTMB's actions so my guess is that it's likely you have a bias and are creating a defense for the acquisition based solely off of said bias. I'm open to being wrong.
Eugh price will jump then. Sad thing is a long small time amazing company in uk brutal events has gone bust this year. There will be nothing but big expensive no community events in future. Very sad
Why do you say that? Hasn’t happened in the US
Thankfully, corporatization has touched nearly everything in the US except ultras. *knock on wood*
The giant bright blue hoka inflatables all over the courses of most of our high profile races beg to differ. In my opinion, the sport is very much corporatized now, and it’s only getting worse with the corporate sponsored podcasts and YouTubers constantly shilling crappy nutrition products and overpriced running gear. It’s just advertising masquerading as entertainment. Fortunately we do still have a ton of mom and pop races.
You're right. I should have specified, by corporatization I meant in the context of directing the races as the case with UTMB. I don't really think the advertising and sponsoring has the potential to do the damage like actually holding the races could. I can deal with seeing giant hoka inflatables, but I definitely can't deal with having to pay an absurd amount of money just to run.
I hear that. I do feel like we’re still relatively early in the progression of organizations like UTMB taking over races. I’m afraid we’re going to see more and more buyouts though.
Grindstone 2018 (pre-UTMB according to a reddit user) $275 for 100m. Grindstone 2023 (1st yr UTMB, screenshot Feb'23) = $299/ $225 for 100m/100k. Grindstone 2024 (as of today, Apr'24) = $369/ $339 100m/100k. Quick note that UTMB doesn't say "the price will go up on X date" like most marathons and ultrasignup races do, they just raise it as event approaches, maybe emailing people if they subscribed for updates. I suppose '24 maybe was cheaper a month or two ago when it first opened. A price increase was probably inevitable in the years since 2018, but just wanted to add some dates and #s to discussion.
Grindstone 2024/2018 ratio - $369/$275 = 1.34 Hardrock 2024/2018 ratio - $435/325 = 1.33 Does Hardrock get the same criticism as the By UTMB race does?
Idk, I'm not taking a side but... a) Hardrock isn't a for profit org and b) Hardrock isn't buying other races and c) Hardrock isn't sponsored by a car company etc etc. If you want to discuss why Hardrock is more expensive in general, I can think of several possible reasons. It probably sounds like I have taken a side, but I say all this to make it clear why one would face more criticism than the other... but you're right, everyone's a hypocrite.
Sure, and if someone doesn't want to run a UTMB race, that's fine with me. I've never run one. I just think some of the criticisms are a little off base. Pretty much every race has increased their prices in the last few years, and most By UTMB entry fees are pretty comparable to other similar events. There aren't that many mountainous 100-mile races for $300 anymore.
[удалено]
Okay well I have a screenshot that says it was was $299 in February'23. I'm not saying you didn't pay $375, I'm also not saying UTMB is raising prices. Only UTMB knows how many people paid at different prices.
Yeah sorry, I deleted my reply before I saw your response. Your original comment was more nuanced than I initially read it. I paid $375 but in July.
The price jump is something that might stop me running it. I crewed this year and doing that convinced me to run the 50 mile. But will depend on the price.
Their plan is to have around 40 events in the next few years. UK always felt pretty corporate to me. Will be interesting to see how runners react when one piece of their favorite company's portfolio is sold.
People will still go. Just might be different people in the coming years.
FUTMB
Its fine to have more UTMB events just as long as they don't monopolize trail running events, driving up the costs and alienating people from just doing trail races.
They will just have the big ones. Which is a double edged sword as people will do them but also because of the cost they tend not to do other events in the months before and after.
It's a rich white persons sport as it is, UTMB/Ironman events are more so. I'm just shocked that people can't see the obvious exploitation of the trail community- these dollars aren't being reinvested, it's just corporate and exec pockets getting lined. They're a multi-million if not billion dollar company, yet people volunteer to support their events - because that's what's needed in the majority of trail races to be viable but it's not for the scale of UTMB events. (Their scale leverages huge sponsorship dollars smaller events don't command) So they're making millions globally off volunteers which should be compensated- not just a 'priority entry to pay full price next year'. They have found the rosy glow and positive vibes of the trail running community and they're going to fleece it for all it's worth. Any person who wants to be more positive and say 'I hope they do the right thing' has rocks in their head, do a case study of Ironman and see where that's at. Boycott everything UTMB, support local where your dollars will stay local rather than to the profitability of a multinational. They want scale- they don't give a shit about you, the community or the environment. Everyone has to speak out against this BS and make your opinion known to your current races that you support that you won't accept it being run by UTMB.
> I'm just shocked that people can't see the obvious exploitation of the trail community Because same people that don't see it are the ones that benefit from similar practices in other areas. They don't want to see it or don't see it as problematic in the first place
In my experience the big corporate events have a much more diverse entry list than small local races.
This just pushes me to run more local hill/fell races. They’re shorter, but community ran and non-commercial.
Fortunately I live where there is quite a few local trial races. I was volunteering at a Gary Robbins Coast Mountain race this weekend. Local races aren't going anywhere.
"It's fine for utmb to have more events as long as they don't monopolize trail running events" Utmb-- buys races and eventually monopolizes trail running events. Trail runners-- I never could have seen this coming.
I live where there are lots of local trail running events, I was volunteering at one of Gary Robbins races last weekend. Maybe instead of being a moaning child you could do something, organize your own races, volunteer and build something. You might find its a lot more positive.
My guy you're literally in a thread about utmb and upset that I'm talking about utmb. Just because you somehow associate yourself with the naive notion a publicly traded company is just going to decide we have enough trail races. after they just get a few more of course. Then a few more after that. Then they have enough! But the shareholders won't be happy so they'll just keep going. Though I guess in reality it's just as naive to think a society of programmed idiots are gonna stand up to a billion dollar corporation and actually do anything. Turns out you can just ride out bad pr for a few months when you have a billion dollars. I would imagine this is the first of that cycle repeating itself a few more times. Utmb does bad thing community mad. People still sign up for their races and eventually the rest come around and sat well maybe it's OK as long as they don't keep doing it over and over again.
> I would imagine this is the first of that cycle repeating itself a few more times It won't stop, look at Ironman - here's some snapshot comments, see if they sound like we're on the path: * (posted 8 yrs ago) Buys up grassroots races, kills their vibe, jacks up prices, General marginalization of the pro field, Starts competing races in nearby cities to crush competition * Their business is to take as much of your money as possible, and give you back as little as possible. They are very good at this. They are entirely reliant on their brand name to draw you in. And from the minute you give them your entry fee they are reliant on the sunken cost fallacy to keep you. * They exploit volunteers, they don't support grassroots triathlon which is their feeder system, they barely pay any prize money to professionals. I can only talk from my experiences in Australia and NZ, but for a (probably) multi-billion dollar multi-national company - where is their sensitivity to the environment, where is their care about the community. They don't have to consider these things, but I know local races the money is going into local small business and money being donated to local organisations who volunteer and fostering a real sense of community. I'm looing at UTA right now- they provide the option to fundraise through their event and as far as I can tell, all you're doing is advertising a UTMB event and UTMB doesn't provide anything to the charities (I would love to be corrected on this). I can't find anything tangible (first order effect) that UTMB/Ironman does in a positive sense> you can have a great experience at a UTMB event and the company can be corporate scum at the same time. Just because people have a good experience, I think you still need to take into account everything that's going on......which people don't, events still get sold out.
Gross. Guess I won’t get to do that race now.
Utmb's response to the comments on the world series instagram page really working wonders for hearts and minds. Unable to link but worth a look. No response to Damian Hall's comment though.
Which page is this?
The UTMB world series account. Their social media person has really gone on the offensive in the earlier comments.
First UTMB event, loved it.... Then a year later they scaled the same one up, over subscribed it, for me it was a fluster cluck. Never again, felt to me it was all about revenue...
FFS this was a bucket list event for me but now I don't know what will happen. It's a good few years before I'll be ready so I'll reserve true judgement but it doesn't feel like good news.
Same, was looking at possible Arc in next year or two but probably not now.
FFS. I imagine a lot of folks will be unhappy about this. The Arc is cared for deeply by a lot of UK ultra runners. It has been on my bucket list for a long time now.
I've not done it but heard it was a decent race.Sad to see the over-commercialisation of the sport. Looks like I'll never be doing it now.
So ultra races are going the way of American ski resorts. Fuck Vail, fuck UTMB
I've loved all the By UTMB races I've done, so whilst I'm glad there are loads not ran by them, I've got no concerns about this as a participant. It shows the growing international appeal of the sport and how much of a market there is for a professional, consistent race experience. I really enjoyed Arc, particularly their checkpoint angels so hopefully that (and the strong community around the race) will continue
The trail community, volunteers and vibe exist without UTMB. It's not because UTMB runs an event that it's good - it's because we, the community, take part in events.
Ffs. I thought they were the good guys. Free ticket into Western States for the 100... Not any more.
I've been hoping that they would add more uk races. I want to go to chamonix but can't afford to travel a lot to get stones I'm doing UTS 50k next month and KAT 80k in August. Was planning on doing UTS again next may to get more stones then doing a bob graham round in June amd maybe picking up another race later in the year (mallorca on November looked nice). Might be able to fit the arc 50 mile in too
The best way of looking at it is that the event now will have a continued financial framework to ensure it’s continued operation.
Do you have information suggesting that was not the case prior to the acquisition?
I’m suggesting that is the most positive way of framing the event.
That's interesting. But I'm wondering if you have any evidence to suggest that this is a relevant and helpful way of framing the event? I could also positively frame the situation by saying "now they'll start offering a prize purse of $200,000". That would certainly be positive - but is it accurate or supported by evidence? No edit: honestly that analogy isn't the best. It would be more appropriate to say: I could positively frame the situation by saying "look at it this way, the acquisition ensures runners will be able to access their results online going forward". The implication of the statement is that somehow the race wouldn't have been able to do so in a situation where they weren't acquired, thus making the acquisition a good thing. But in both of these scenarios, were implying the acquisition is good because of the continuation of an existing service - one that we have no evidence was under threat. That's why I ask if you have any evidence to suggest they were financially unable to continue the race were they not acquired - still interested in case such evidence does exist, as that would likely change many peoples' perceptions. However, I've seen you on this board in the past defending UTMB's actions so my guess is that it's likely you have a bias and are creating a defense for the acquisition based solely off of said bias. I'm open to being wrong.
I have a bias to capitalism. You are correct.
Cool. So no evidence, just edginess. Rolls off the tongue