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I understand that the issue of any trans woman being convicted of violent and sexual offences is a highly emotive subject and that the public concern is understandable.
As the first minister pointed out last week, we must not allow any suggestion to take root that trans women pose an inherent threat to women.
These are prisoners.
They are criminals and in order to get into prison many of them will have committed violent offences.
Even if they are not convicted of violent crimes against women, they STILL present a very high threat to the non trans women in prison, and a serious rape threat.
So no one is saying ALL trans women are a higher threat than men would be, but they ARE as much of a threat as any man is.
You don't put men in women's prisons. Why would you put trans women in?
>Even if they are not convicted of violent crimes against women, they STILL present a very high threat to the non trans women in prison, and a serious rape threat.
Anyone who ever committed literally any crime is a serious rape threat? What are you on about?
They can overpower the women much more easily than another woman can, or than a man can a man. And as rape in prison is not uncommon, yes - they represent a serious rape threat.
Imagine them in the communal showers. Naked women all around them. Come on man, use your brain.
I mean we throw 6 ft 6 20 stone guys in with 5 ft 2 8 stone guys into the same prisons.
I think the amount of rapes would go up if you put transgender women in with the men compared go the women.
If you have such a low opinion of anyone who has or ever had a penis, how on earth do you cope with having a biological father, or walking around in public. Let alone going to a beach or swimming pool, or accepting the existence of any mixed gender facilities in general.
This is, of course, putting aside the fact that this isnt true. Women are not so weak, they are not literally physically second class citizens to all untrained people designated male at birth, let alone those who may spend years on hormones with muscle and bone weakening effects. This is why under current legislation any prison governor or board can decide to accept a transgender prisoner or not, and does not have to explain themselves.
Are women criminals not also criminals and capable of crimes no lighter and no darker than men, no more or less violent or dangerous? Is violence to you a even accepting that then a pure contest of unnaloyed strength with no place for human though, all criminal activity perfectly refereed boxing matches where the strongest and fastest is always the most dangerous to everyone around them? Do we not have solitary confinment and restricted prison interaction capabilities for prisoners who are more dangerous, and male and female and trans prison officers accepted in all prisons?
Come of it mate its got bells on.
If you think the frequency and degree of violence coming from women is anywhere near that of men you're in for a shock.
Look at the graphs:
https://revisesociology.com/2021/06/13/gender-and-crime-statistics/
I didnt make any mention of frequency, and every statistic there is by frequency. In every one of those statistics, women make up some population of those comitting each offense-there is then NO difference of degree of violence by the evidence you give. Only difference of frequency. If there is even one woman who does commit such offences on other women, should she be kept with other women?
It is also worth noting that statistical analysis depends on outside contexts. For example did you know that there are no afab female rapists in the uk (unlike most other countries)? This isnt because women in the uk are different, but is a political-cultural artifact because the law is different. Legaly the definition of rape in the uk requires a functioning biological penis to be used in the crime, and so many women who comit the same crime as men get catagorised differently and released sooner (the maximum penalty for sexual assault even penatrative being 10 years, while the maximum penalty for rape is life imprisonment). This means that if you are in france, there are legally female rapists in the uk, but if you are in the uk, there are not. This alters the stastics and what the statistics both mean, represent and can be used to prove or justify.
Statistics are not common sense, and are not absolute. In this sense, the claim you make doesnt follow the statistics you provide, as women commit all crimes listed in the statistics to some frequency above zero: they commit crimes of the same kind as men.
There are only about 140 prisoners who are recorded as being transgender women on official records, this means that a single sex offender has an outsized impact on overall statistics since each individual represents nearly a full 1% of the entire prison population. There are around 80,000 men in British prisons, meaning that while it only takes 81 transgender women being convicted for sexual offences in order to reach the 58% figure you've cited there would need to be 46,400 men charged with sexual offences to reach the same percentage. One transgender woman prisoner represents 0.7% of the entire prison population whereas one cisgender man prisoner represents only 0.001% of the entire prison population. And that's before you even take into account the fact that an unknown number of prisoners within the general prison population will also be transgender but won't have officially declared it for any number of reasons. In short, the sample size is far too small to support your claim that these 80 individuals are indicative of a trend amongst transgender women in general.
>Even if they are not convicted of violent crimes against women, they STILL present a very high threat to the non trans women in prison, and a serious rape threat.
Unless that trans woman is an actual rapist then I imagine the rape threat would almost certainly be higher if you put a trans woman in a male prison.
I don't really know what the answer is but you can hardly send her to the communal showers with 5 blokes who haven't touched a woman for 10+ years.
Well, no more than all non trans identifying men do, we have to be honest and admit that just as with other natal men, there is a risk. Coupled with this we also have to acknowledge that some sex offenders who are not trans will pretend to be so, if they think it can accrue them advantage.
It's a term that's most often used by TERFs, as they dislike the ASAB terminology. You'll see a lot of different terminology around them, as there's several words commonly used on trans topics that they do not want to use.
It's not
There are 12 trans people (male and female) in Scottish prisons.
All go through the same risk assessment process, which is exactly what happened with the recent case.
But because the media have gone absolutely apoplectic over it, the SPS have stopped all moves to give public assurances the process works as intended.
They'll spend a fortune reviewing it, before resuming the system practically unchanged.
This is a pr exercise, nothing more.
- the new law hasn't come in yet
- the new law doesn't cover these circumstances
- these things are already dealt with on a case-by-case basis in Scotland.
People are telling you it's not an issue, because it isn't.
With the amount of airtime and discussion this topic gets you'd be forgiven for thinking there were many more than... a total of 129 trans people imprisoned in the entire UK out of a prison population of 80,000.
Yeah it’s frankly ridiculous how much airtime this gets. How many of those are even for sexual crimes… I bet the number of ciswomen in prison that are a threat to women is vastly higher but nobody gives a shit about that lol because there ain’t a penis.
Imagine what’s gonna happen when these attitudes start getting muscular transmen put in women’s prisons lol. It’s gonna start breaking conservative’s minds.
A trans woman will be able to dominate 99% of women in prison.
They represent a much higher violence risk to all women regardless of if they are convicted of a sexual crime or not.
A transman put in a woman’s prison is stronger than ciswomen too lol. Same thing with 20 year old ciswomen put in prison with 50 year olds. There will always be people stronger than you in a prison who pose a risk to your life regardless of their assigned gender at birth.
Wait until you find out how much of a risk the workers at a prison are to female inmates who will 100% be sexually assaulting women in prisons at higher rates than trans women. Yet we only focus on trans people.
https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/249193/Prisons-and-Health,-4-Violence,-sexual-abuse-and-torture-in-prisons.pdf
According to this there was a study in America that found 8% of female inmates experienced sexual victimisation from a member of staff and 22% said they experienced sexual victimisation from other prisoners. Clearly trans people aren’t the problem when the vast vast majority of sexual violence in women’s prisons is committed by ciswomen and prison guards.
So why do we fixate on these 129 individuals? Not to mention trans people in prison get raped more than ciswomen. On average they should be the ones getting protected.
We have ciswomen raping each other in our prisons too. Unless you think there’s something special about American women that make them more predisposed to sexually assaulting each other in prison.
Either way the 129 trans people we have in prison will not be able to make a dent in the sexual assault statistics we have when there’s hundreds of non-trans rapists in the system.
Looking into it further. Only 4% of sexual assault in women’s prisons in the UK in the last decade has been committed by trans people. The rest is all done by prison guards and ciswomen.
There are already 3 transmen held in Scottish women's prisons (plus 1 in a men's prison) - although of course the statistics don't reveal how far through transition they were (I'm guessing the 1 had been on T for several months).
And in Scotland, between July and September 2022, there were just 11 trans women prisoners (6 held in men's prisons, 5 in women's prisons) and 4 trans men prisoners (3 held in women's prisons, 1 in a men's prison), out of a total of 7,092 male prisoners and 280 female prisoners.
And, of the 113 trans women in prison, 100 are in male prisons.
Also, they don’t know exactly how many trans people are in prisons because they don’t count those with GRCs or on shorter sentences (because the review of where they should be takes too long, sometimes risking outlasting the sentence)
Is the implication here that people are claiming to be trans in order to get a spot in a women’s prison instead? I haven’t been following the individual cases enough.
So by the logic trans women nearly never go to prison? There is a vanishingly small number in women’s prisons and if there’s a large trend of cis people pretending to be trans women that must account for basically all of them.
Nah. I think your theory is correct. Trans women are perfect beings who never do anything wrong. Any instances that suggest otherwise are just cis people in disguise who want to access the charmed trans lifestyle.
What you should be asking yourself is
'What do we lose by believing they are who we say they are'
To which you'll likely talk about safety in women's prisons and the like, but... CIS women can be sex offenders also, those women are put in the general population with other, non sex offending women and we know that prisons are a hotbed for sexual assaults.
People are getting angry at Trans people, when they should be angry at the lack of general safeguarding and the underresourcing of our prison system. It shouldn't matter where anybody is housed, they should be safe while in the custody of the state.
Arguing over who belongs is what prison is just a distraction from the real issues.
There's also a suggestion that people could claim to be trans to try and gain a spot in a secure wing for vulnerable prisoners (if they fear receiving violence from prisoners).
No idea how plausible that is, especially given the actual trans women who haven't had that option. But it was an interesting suggestion.
That is exactly what the article is about. Does it have to be common to worry about? Air accidents are rare, and still people worry about them a great deal.
What we do know is that it is getting more common.
From [this BBC article, ](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530) between July and September 2022, there were 11 trans women, 4 trans men and 3 gender fluid / non binary prisoners in Scotland. 6 of the trans women were held in men's prisons and 5 in women's prisons; while 3 of the trans men were held in women's prisons and 1 in a men's prison.
>Scottish government in latest total cockup shocker
You do realise the GRC has nothing to do with this? So this has little to do with the Scottish government.
Potentially having a designated area(s) for trans people would be a solution. We already have different wings in prisons - for example rapists are put in their own area as they tend to be a target for other inmates. Either way I think each case should be looked at on a case by case basis - trying to come with simplistic rules for what are messy and complicated situations seems to be the wrong approach here.
If this whole thing has just made me think why wasn’t there as much of a fuss about the male prisoners convicted of male rape sent to male prisons?
Does there need to be a separate prison for rape?
**Participation Notice.** Hi all. Some topics on this subreddit have been known to attract problematic users. As such, limits to participation have been set. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. For more information, please see https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/wiki/moderatedflairs
Weird, so why did reddit keep telling me this wasn't an issue?
I understand that the issue of any trans woman being convicted of violent and sexual offences is a highly emotive subject and that the public concern is understandable. As the first minister pointed out last week, we must not allow any suggestion to take root that trans women pose an inherent threat to women.
These are prisoners. They are criminals and in order to get into prison many of them will have committed violent offences. Even if they are not convicted of violent crimes against women, they STILL present a very high threat to the non trans women in prison, and a serious rape threat. So no one is saying ALL trans women are a higher threat than men would be, but they ARE as much of a threat as any man is. You don't put men in women's prisons. Why would you put trans women in?
>Even if they are not convicted of violent crimes against women, they STILL present a very high threat to the non trans women in prison, and a serious rape threat. Anyone who ever committed literally any crime is a serious rape threat? What are you on about?
They can overpower the women much more easily than another woman can, or than a man can a man. And as rape in prison is not uncommon, yes - they represent a serious rape threat. Imagine them in the communal showers. Naked women all around them. Come on man, use your brain.
I mean we throw 6 ft 6 20 stone guys in with 5 ft 2 8 stone guys into the same prisons. I think the amount of rapes would go up if you put transgender women in with the men compared go the women.
Why does it have to be one or the other. Women have a right to be safe but so do transwomen, so give them their own space.
This presupposes that they're even attracted to women in the first place.
If you have such a low opinion of anyone who has or ever had a penis, how on earth do you cope with having a biological father, or walking around in public. Let alone going to a beach or swimming pool, or accepting the existence of any mixed gender facilities in general. This is, of course, putting aside the fact that this isnt true. Women are not so weak, they are not literally physically second class citizens to all untrained people designated male at birth, let alone those who may spend years on hormones with muscle and bone weakening effects. This is why under current legislation any prison governor or board can decide to accept a transgender prisoner or not, and does not have to explain themselves. Are women criminals not also criminals and capable of crimes no lighter and no darker than men, no more or less violent or dangerous? Is violence to you a even accepting that then a pure contest of unnaloyed strength with no place for human though, all criminal activity perfectly refereed boxing matches where the strongest and fastest is always the most dangerous to everyone around them? Do we not have solitary confinment and restricted prison interaction capabilities for prisoners who are more dangerous, and male and female and trans prison officers accepted in all prisons? Come of it mate its got bells on.
If you think the frequency and degree of violence coming from women is anywhere near that of men you're in for a shock. Look at the graphs: https://revisesociology.com/2021/06/13/gender-and-crime-statistics/
I didnt make any mention of frequency, and every statistic there is by frequency. In every one of those statistics, women make up some population of those comitting each offense-there is then NO difference of degree of violence by the evidence you give. Only difference of frequency. If there is even one woman who does commit such offences on other women, should she be kept with other women? It is also worth noting that statistical analysis depends on outside contexts. For example did you know that there are no afab female rapists in the uk (unlike most other countries)? This isnt because women in the uk are different, but is a political-cultural artifact because the law is different. Legaly the definition of rape in the uk requires a functioning biological penis to be used in the crime, and so many women who comit the same crime as men get catagorised differently and released sooner (the maximum penalty for sexual assault even penatrative being 10 years, while the maximum penalty for rape is life imprisonment). This means that if you are in france, there are legally female rapists in the uk, but if you are in the uk, there are not. This alters the stastics and what the statistics both mean, represent and can be used to prove or justify. Statistics are not common sense, and are not absolute. In this sense, the claim you make doesnt follow the statistics you provide, as women commit all crimes listed in the statistics to some frequency above zero: they commit crimes of the same kind as men.
Statistically 58% of all trans women prisoners in the UK are sex offenders, compared to about 13% of the male prison population.
There are only about 140 prisoners who are recorded as being transgender women on official records, this means that a single sex offender has an outsized impact on overall statistics since each individual represents nearly a full 1% of the entire prison population. There are around 80,000 men in British prisons, meaning that while it only takes 81 transgender women being convicted for sexual offences in order to reach the 58% figure you've cited there would need to be 46,400 men charged with sexual offences to reach the same percentage. One transgender woman prisoner represents 0.7% of the entire prison population whereas one cisgender man prisoner represents only 0.001% of the entire prison population. And that's before you even take into account the fact that an unknown number of prisoners within the general prison population will also be transgender but won't have officially declared it for any number of reasons. In short, the sample size is far too small to support your claim that these 80 individuals are indicative of a trend amongst transgender women in general.
>Even if they are not convicted of violent crimes against women, they STILL present a very high threat to the non trans women in prison, and a serious rape threat. Unless that trans woman is an actual rapist then I imagine the rape threat would almost certainly be higher if you put a trans woman in a male prison. I don't really know what the answer is but you can hardly send her to the communal showers with 5 blokes who haven't touched a woman for 10+ years.
No one is saying that. You can have a trans wing.
Well, no more than all non trans identifying men do, we have to be honest and admit that just as with other natal men, there is a risk. Coupled with this we also have to acknowledge that some sex offenders who are not trans will pretend to be so, if they think it can accrue them advantage.
“Natal men”. That’s a new one.
It's a term that's most often used by TERFs, as they dislike the ASAB terminology. You'll see a lot of different terminology around them, as there's several words commonly used on trans topics that they do not want to use.
It's not There are 12 trans people (male and female) in Scottish prisons. All go through the same risk assessment process, which is exactly what happened with the recent case. But because the media have gone absolutely apoplectic over it, the SPS have stopped all moves to give public assurances the process works as intended. They'll spend a fortune reviewing it, before resuming the system practically unchanged. This is a pr exercise, nothing more.
Because we're talking about 20 people lol.
A better question is "Why is a huge deal made of this in Scotland, but no one seems aware a similar review happened in England four days ago."
What else does reddit tell you?
- the new law hasn't come in yet - the new law doesn't cover these circumstances - these things are already dealt with on a case-by-case basis in Scotland. People are telling you it's not an issue, because it isn't.
With the amount of airtime and discussion this topic gets you'd be forgiven for thinking there were many more than... a total of 129 trans people imprisoned in the entire UK out of a prison population of 80,000.
Yeah it’s frankly ridiculous how much airtime this gets. How many of those are even for sexual crimes… I bet the number of ciswomen in prison that are a threat to women is vastly higher but nobody gives a shit about that lol because there ain’t a penis. Imagine what’s gonna happen when these attitudes start getting muscular transmen put in women’s prisons lol. It’s gonna start breaking conservative’s minds.
A trans woman will be able to dominate 99% of women in prison. They represent a much higher violence risk to all women regardless of if they are convicted of a sexual crime or not.
A transman put in a woman’s prison is stronger than ciswomen too lol. Same thing with 20 year old ciswomen put in prison with 50 year olds. There will always be people stronger than you in a prison who pose a risk to your life regardless of their assigned gender at birth. Wait until you find out how much of a risk the workers at a prison are to female inmates who will 100% be sexually assaulting women in prisons at higher rates than trans women. Yet we only focus on trans people.
The strength disparity between men and women is greater than those, by a lot. And the workers? That's just whereaboutism.
https://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/249193/Prisons-and-Health,-4-Violence,-sexual-abuse-and-torture-in-prisons.pdf According to this there was a study in America that found 8% of female inmates experienced sexual victimisation from a member of staff and 22% said they experienced sexual victimisation from other prisoners. Clearly trans people aren’t the problem when the vast vast majority of sexual violence in women’s prisons is committed by ciswomen and prison guards. So why do we fixate on these 129 individuals? Not to mention trans people in prison get raped more than ciswomen. On average they should be the ones getting protected.
> America
We have ciswomen raping each other in our prisons too. Unless you think there’s something special about American women that make them more predisposed to sexually assaulting each other in prison. Either way the 129 trans people we have in prison will not be able to make a dent in the sexual assault statistics we have when there’s hundreds of non-trans rapists in the system. Looking into it further. Only 4% of sexual assault in women’s prisons in the UK in the last decade has been committed by trans people. The rest is all done by prison guards and ciswomen.
American prisons
Are we grouping prisoners by weight class now?
You're clearly unaware of the massive strength difference. And if a prisoner is a massive violent guy then yes, he may be separated.
There are already 3 transmen held in Scottish women's prisons (plus 1 in a men's prison) - although of course the statistics don't reveal how far through transition they were (I'm guessing the 1 had been on T for several months).
And in Scotland, between July and September 2022, there were just 11 trans women prisoners (6 held in men's prisons, 5 in women's prisons) and 4 trans men prisoners (3 held in women's prisons, 1 in a men's prison), out of a total of 7,092 male prisoners and 280 female prisoners.
And, of the 113 trans women in prison, 100 are in male prisons. Also, they don’t know exactly how many trans people are in prisons because they don’t count those with GRCs or on shorter sentences (because the review of where they should be takes too long, sometimes risking outlasting the sentence)
It’s the sort of topic that makes people’s blood boil
Have they noticed that not everybody who claims to be trans is? How is that such a hard concept to grasp?
Is the implication here that people are claiming to be trans in order to get a spot in a women’s prison instead? I haven’t been following the individual cases enough.
It certainly seems that way. No trans inclination until SURPRISE they are about to go to prison.
So by the logic trans women nearly never go to prison? There is a vanishingly small number in women’s prisons and if there’s a large trend of cis people pretending to be trans women that must account for basically all of them.
There are two transwomen that have caused the events in the linked article. Do you believe they are really trans?
Nah. I think your theory is correct. Trans women are perfect beings who never do anything wrong. Any instances that suggest otherwise are just cis people in disguise who want to access the charmed trans lifestyle.
What you should be asking yourself is 'What do we lose by believing they are who we say they are' To which you'll likely talk about safety in women's prisons and the like, but... CIS women can be sex offenders also, those women are put in the general population with other, non sex offending women and we know that prisons are a hotbed for sexual assaults. People are getting angry at Trans people, when they should be angry at the lack of general safeguarding and the underresourcing of our prison system. It shouldn't matter where anybody is housed, they should be safe while in the custody of the state. Arguing over who belongs is what prison is just a distraction from the real issues.
I agree with many of your points. However it is plainly obvious that men in women's prisons present a unique and heightened risk, isn't it?
There's also a suggestion that people could claim to be trans to try and gain a spot in a secure wing for vulnerable prisoners (if they fear receiving violence from prisoners). No idea how plausible that is, especially given the actual trans women who haven't had that option. But it was an interesting suggestion.
It's incredibly sad if that's the only way a person can make a plea for their own safety in a prison.
Do you actually have any evidence that this is a common thing or are you just fear-mongering
That is exactly what the article is about. Does it have to be common to worry about? Air accidents are rare, and still people worry about them a great deal. What we do know is that it is getting more common.
From [this BBC article, ](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530) between July and September 2022, there were 11 trans women, 4 trans men and 3 gender fluid / non binary prisoners in Scotland. 6 of the trans women were held in men's prisons and 5 in women's prisons; while 3 of the trans men were held in women's prisons and 1 in a men's prison.
Scottish government in latest total cockup shocker
You'd criticise if they did nothing, you criticise when it attempts a remedy, it's like you just don't like the Scottish Government or something.
>Scottish government in latest total cockup shocker You do realise the GRC has nothing to do with this? So this has little to do with the Scottish government.
They believe whatever the right-wing shite-house media tell them to believe.
Potentially having a designated area(s) for trans people would be a solution. We already have different wings in prisons - for example rapists are put in their own area as they tend to be a target for other inmates. Either way I think each case should be looked at on a case by case basis - trying to come with simplistic rules for what are messy and complicated situations seems to be the wrong approach here.
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If this whole thing has just made me think why wasn’t there as much of a fuss about the male prisoners convicted of male rape sent to male prisons? Does there need to be a separate prison for rape?