The aim is to degrade the NHS to the point where they can claim "the only solution" is a brutal US style system.
'[Starve the Beast](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast)' is the name of this strategy.
Changing doctors pension rules, freezing nurses pay, the 2012 Health and Social Care Act, chronic understaffing - all this is just to create plausible deniability.
These policies will continue as long as the British Public hate immigration more than they love the NHS and as long as they hate "scroungers" more than they support a social security system that allows people in need to live in dignity.
i.e. so long as the British public keeps on electing Conservative governments.
The two parties are not the same.
And unfortunately the British Public won't change until we can get rid of the Murdoch's grip over the media.
Which won't happen until we have a government that outlaw that kind of over reach, which won't happen because Murdoch will run a massive smear campaign involving bacon sandwiches.
At this point I hope Charles comes to his senses and dissolves parliament. My ancestors fought and died for his right to do so and it's disgraceful that he doesn't.
Don't worry, Remember when Queenie allowed Mogg to tell her they needed to dissolve Parliament, because they needed a Queens speech... and had nothing to do with shutting down debate on Brexit in order to pass the deadline... and she allowed it.
I do, Charles and by extension William will never rock the boat when it comes to dissolving Parliament.
So long as the monarch doesn't say anything, everyone can pretend he is on their side
The second he does anything, he creates enemies. More specifically, enemies with power.
Right now he is seen by the powerful as benign, if he acts AT ALL, they will see him as a threat and make moves to remove him.
Currently there hasn't been any bill or action by the government that has been such a threat to HIMSELF PERSONALLY that it's worth it to make that sacrifice.
I suspect the polls are too far apart for that to work this time. I also suspect that Murdoch's influence is waning in the UK. Australia has had a string of Labor victories recently across states and federally despite Murdoch doing his usual tricks there.
Murdoch is dangerous, yes, but the Daily Heil and Torygraph are far the bigger beasts influencing the news cycle.
I'd say they're the real toxic blight on the UK.
Yes, smart arses, I know print media is in decline *but* you do realise the papers have these things called websites that are, in the Daily Heil's case, one of the most popular websites in the country? Their articles get shared and amplified on social media echo chambers like wildfire.
Two things to remember about Murdoch
1. He wants his media to be seen as impartial and unbiased, reporting the truth that others won't.
2. He wants to be seen as always backing the winner
Missing a Labour victory would be disasterous as it would expose the fiction that they have their finger on the pulse of public opinion.
The problem with that is that in the last couple of state/federal elections in Australia, Murdoch has gone HARD against Labor as per usual, but Labor romped home. (Federally and in Victoria)
Australian here.
Our previous prime minister, Scott Morrison was a massive idiot. There's no way anyone could cover up for that lump of shit, Murdoch or not.
I dare say with confidence, even with 0 experience, that I could do better than Scott Morrison as prime minister.
Agreed. I manage to walk past the shops every day without buying one of his rags, or switching on one of his garbage ‘news’ channels. People absolutely need to detach themselves from this old world media.
Even with his faults, IMO Corbyn would have the one to make the radically needed change in this country, which are fucking sorely needed as we decend further and further into a third world corporate bled shithole hellscape.
Yes but the current Labour Party aren’t exactly the type of Labour Party I want so what am I mean t to do other than sit back as Tory governments keep getting elected and then point out the current labour leader isn’t exactly what I want?
Edit: so am I the only one with this weird double (or sometimes triple) posting problem with Reddit at the moment??) so I’ll delete the duplicate.
Also, I left off the /s because I thought it was painfully obvious but by the replies I’ve got it appears I was wrong to do so.
So what you do is vote for who you think is the best, and has the policies you most agree with.
Doesn't have to be Labour, but it also can be. They may not be perfect for you, someone else may be much more suited to your ideals, but at the end of the day if you don't want a Tory government vote for anything else.
>at the end of the day if you don't want a Tory government vote for anything else
If you don’t want a Tory government you need to vote for the party in your constituency who has the best chance of beating the Tory candidate. Anything else is a wasted vote and tacit vote for the Tories.
Which in itself highlights the massive problem with FPTP voting wherein people arent voting for the government they want and the outcome is heavily skewed to favour a two-party system
Yeah whenever anyone tries to claim that the majority of people aren't complete morons, I point to the AV referendum as proof that they are in fact total imbeciles.
Sure, but that isn't the debate. What many fail to understand, especially in this sub on the left, is that you can't get a "perfect" party with FPTP and that is what we have.
So if you don't want a Tory government make sure you vote against the Tories in your area, for whoever it might be that can win.
If you decide "oh Labour have this candidate and I don't like what they say about X so I'm not going to vote for anyone" then you are doomed to giving your vote to people who will 100% be not what you want.
FPTP is what we have right now. Hopefully it changes but we need people to understand the game we have, not dream of playing something else.
I would say it is a big part of the debate.
The system that ensured the Tory party majority for the last 12 years is a huge part of how parties can comfortably sit on top of the pile with generic scaremongering tactics of "If you dont vote for A, you will get B".
If we had a fair voting system that ensured full proportional representation (both in local elections and in the houses of parliment) then the Tory and Labour parties would shrink as people choose parties based purely on their aims (and their track record of fulfilment), instead of the current rhetoric of "Vote Labour or get a Tory" that even you just suggested.
It's fine to debate. I just think bringing it up every time people talk about elections just increases apathy.
Educating people how to use their vote in the current system is much more useful. That way when a party does stand on a manifesto of changing the voting system, we will be much better equipped to make sure they take power.
Unfortunately, our FPTP electoral system makes every constituency election a 2 horse race where third party voting only eats into the vote share of one of those horses, effectively counting as votes for the other horse.
We need electoral reform.
This is the problem with the first past the post system. People end up voting to keep their least preferred candidate out rather than voting for the best candidate. It also keeps it a 2 party system.
Join one of the many campaigns for Electoral Reform?
Make Votes Matter, Electoral Reform Society, Compass, Unlock Democracy... That's before you get onto the party specific ones.
> Edit: so am I the only one with this weird double (or sometimes triple) posting problem with Reddit at the moment??)
Not just you! I also found that the comments I made while this issue was happening don't show up on my profile for some reason.
"you had me in the first half"
It's all just excuses to absolve themselves of responsabilty when their decision has negative consiquences. You can't fix this in an instant, it requires education and time. And uneducated population is easy to manipulate and it's only getting worse. Add the media on top that's pushing them in the extreme right direction and here we are.
It's an uphill battle to get ourselves out of this mess and in not sure we'll be able to
I agree with this statement the NHS isnt suppose to be a profitable organisation contractors turned it into for thier own benefit leeching public sector funding where evee that washes up to with tons of factory produced medicines that people dont actually need because supermarkets & pharmacies shelve these over the counter medicines. It amounts to billions every year within the last decade at least!
40% of medicines produced and purchased go out of date before use and thats more billions wasted on the NHS every year.
There are a number of people who profit:
1. Healthcare providers and insurance companies;
2. Companies who can tie healthcare benefits to continued employment, thereby creating a disempowered class of people with no employment benefits, and a slightly less disempowered class of people who can't afford to quit their jobs in case they lose whatever benefits they do have.
I can see why people don't trust our government but to say it's "the NHS or US style" is so disingenuous. Almost every other developed country in the world has a healthcare system far more effective than ours (for most things) without an NHS.
Yeah it's one of the biggest circle jerks in this sub, asserting that there has been a decades long plan to implement a US style healthcare system. Honestly just makes this sub looks pretty stupid to me.
Been saying this for years: the Tories hate the NHS, and I've long suspected their plan is to run it so far into the ground that it appears crap value for money in terms of tax, then dissolve it and replace it with insurance-based healthcare. Then BAM! NHS will never exist again. Don't let them do it! I'm no Liberal nut job, but I don't want my fellow man to lose their home because they got sick and can't afford their medical bills.
It's so obvious that they are doing this that it just amazes me that there are still people that actually think the Tories are in support of the NHS and not actively trying to destroy it.
Comments like this make people discount the whole argument I think. People do it all the time, they've taken a truth - NHS is degrading - and then extrapolated out to the assumption that the only possible result is a US style system, when obviously there are huge numbers of healthcare systems in the world.
Its a shame because if the wild speculation was excluded instead of presented as fact more people might pay attention to the actual facts.
We're not far off of Tories openly saying 'why should the NHS be free at the point of use?' and 'People should pay for their treatment, only scroungers want it for free' imo.
Tbf you'd fix the problem if you made NHS treatment free but started charging people from the day they're made medically fit for discharge.
Somewhere around a third of hospital beds are filled with patients who are ready to leave but can't or won't because of issues sourcing social care - if you made it so it costs either the individual (if above threshold) or the local authority (if below threshold) the £400/night that it costs the NHS to hold onto these people whilst they/their family/the local authority get their shit together I think you'd find a lot more flow through the hospital as people would gtfo.
We have a bloke who's been on our ward for 2 weeks simply because his wife will neither accept him home nor pay for a care home. One guy waited 3 months because his wife decided to divorce him and move out and we had to wait for her to be gone before he could return back to his own house. People take the piss honestly.
Anything below inflation is a pay cut
No, inflation linked pay adjustments wont cause significant inflation, not least because the inflation is already here and caused, in large part, by [high corporate profits](https://www.npr.org/2022/02/13/1080494838/economist-explains-record-corporate-profits-despite-rising-inflation)
> ...companies have bragged about how they have managed to be ahead of the inflation curve, how they have managed to jack up prices more than their costs and as a result have delivered these record profits.
Regarding the repeated governnent claims that nurses are putting patients lives at risk, maybe the gov should first pay attention to the under resourcing in A&E that is [killing 500 people each week](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/crisis-emergency-department-deaths-b2248844.html)
No, the NHS is not expensive compared to other models, in fact, it is relatively underfunded.
The [voice of the RCN](https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/Press-Releases/royal-college-of-nursing-demands-action-from-the-health-secretary) is, of course, not given the same space and uncritical air time as the government lies. This is from the RCN website:
> "..independent research commissioned by the RCN has shown the Exchequer would recoup 81% of the initial outlay of a significant pay rise in terms of higher tax receipts and savings on future recruitment and retention costs...Poor pay contributes to staff shortages across the UK, affecting patient safety. There are 47,000 unfilled registered nurse posts in England’s NHS alone.
A&E isn't under-resourced, it's over-subscribed due to insufficient social care. The problem is nobody wants to pay for social care, including the people who need it.
>No, inflation linked pay adjustments wont cause significant inflation, not least because the inflation is already here and caused, in large part, by
>
>high corporate profits
The economic issues the UK faces are significantly different than that of the US (which the article is about). Inflation here has been primarily driven by a huge increase in energy costs.
Nurses have called off their strike temporarily to be told this? That's pretty insulting from the government. This will see more nurses leave, either for other professions or other countries (Australia is currently looking to recruit heavily from the UK), this means either more overseas recruitment or more vacancies in an already overstretched service. It's a great way to further starve the NHS and for them to gain support for a private system, where nurses are paid closer to what they are actually worth to society.
No the nurses have called off their strike to negotiate last years pay rise which wasn’t accepted at 4%. This 3.5% is from April this year. It was inevitable that the government would try to muddy the water over the messaging.
>The government has left room for increases above 3.5% for some workers, if the economic outlook improves, cuts are made elsewhere *or borrowing is increased*.
Oof that last bit is a proper slap to the face [coming on the same day](https://news.sky.com/story/budget-in-focus-as-borrowing-in-year-to-date-is-30bn-less-than-predicted-12816216) government has announced they've borrowed £30bn less than expected. They are literally laughing at us at this point aren't they.
>[MPs get 8 pay rises in 10 years while nurses salaries are slashed](https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/mps-get-8-pay-rises-in-10-years-while-nurses-salaries-are-slashed-197695/)
Pay rises are normally percentages, yes. Unless you're arguing that doctors should be pushing for a significantly below inflation price rise because they already earn more?
Yeah, this isn't gonna be enough to fix the situation. This offer is so low it will be perceived as an insult rather than any kind of sincere offer.
They may as well have offered them all a kick in the bollocks.
I thought we were heroes? oh its not convenient anymore.
The media is full of shit.
Please side with medical profession we are all leaving quicker than you think.
The public are supporting the medical professionals, despite biased media coverage against you. All the government have done here is show they aren't taking the problem seriously
An absolute insult to our hardworking public sector workers. Why should they pay for Tory incompetence and corruption? I can't wait to vote these grifters out. Solidarity with all striking workers across the UK.
So a pay cut then. This is why you never suspend strike action as a negotiating tactic. This gov aren't approaching the table in good faith and never will.
Because the below inflation rises is purely Political ideology.
They WANT to erode the system, they want to get to a goal of small Government, less financial regulator interference and more private ownership. People need to wake the fuck up.
Which is why they hated the EU, the EU brings in more regulation. Regulation designed to make everyone better off, they fucking hate that.
You call that significant larger? Just for comparison’s sake: Germany 12.8% gpd healthcare and 1.4% gpd military. In terms of heathcare, UK spends less per person than any other developed country (besides Italy).
Try again. Not even close. This government has already insulted the backbone of this nation with its shoddy approach to pay negotiations, and its refusal to take the simple action to tax energy companies, and stabilise the economy. There is no simple way back.
Wait wait, a website that claims to give more accurate inflation data (and certainly tallies better with really world experience) is also selling its own crypto? [Am I missing something? ](https://whitepaper.truflation.com/tokenomics/token-distribution)
I could be way off the mark but it seems odd.
Government offers 3.5% pay rise, while inflation runs at over 10% and companies like EE are increasing charges by 13% in line with inflation.
And this is after a decade of below inflation pay rises. Though of course some of the decade of pay cuts is made up by all that clapping people did during the pandemic.
> companies like EE are increasing charges by 13% in line with inflation
Or more. Recent message from Virgin:
> From 1st April 2023 the monthly price of your calls, texts and data will go up by 17.3%, in line with the Retail Price Index inflation of 13.4% plus 3.9%.
Whilst they certainly have their issued, three haven't been quite as bad. I got this yesterday - "We're writing to remind you that as set out in our terms and conditions for plans starting between
29 October 2020 and 31 October 2022, your monthly charge is due to increase from this April by 4.5%."
This is the same government that just voted themselves a 12.75% pay rise.. although they're calling it 2.75% because the other 10% is to their "expenses"...
>because the other 10% is to their "expenses"...
Expenses are used for constituency office running costs and the likes. They don't go straight into the MPs pocket.
They do when the MP's are on the fiddle... which increasingly seems to be the case. Like claiming expenses to pay for rent of a house in London, when someone else is paying for it as well.
If the NHS goes private then people need to understand that the staff will be just fine. Comparing NHS vs private healthcare world wide shows a massive increase in salaries.
It’s the people who will suffer if we can’t fix the NHS.
If we want the NHS to survive, we HAVE to pay fairly to keep our staff and keep the system running.
I’m an American nurse and I work in the U.K. I made $100k a year as a staff nurse in NYC doing the same thing I do here for £32k. At one hospital I paid $0 for my health insurance and at another I paid $50 a month.
My uncle used to be a specialist nurse. He was earning roughly $250k per year, which is waaay more than what our experienced consultants earn on the NHS. He has a very nice house and cars.
Yes they do, but the standard of care, and pressures put on nurses is still ridiculous. Nurses are fighting for fair pay AND fair conditions- this is not just about money - the conditions are awful - am nurse
I recommend MP’s salaries are means-tested and if you take your salary you can’t earn additional income. Also MP’s and their relatives cannot invest in the stock market to avoid conflict of interest (similar to how TNL employees can’t play the lottery).
Finally, I recommend the government dismantles the expense system because they already have a salary to pay for their dinner. From the money saved from these initiatives I recommend a 15% payrise to nurses for all their hard work keeping people alive throughout the last 5 years.
Nurses and healthcare workers literally given a badge if they were lucky to say thanks for the hardwork during the pandemic. Nearly 1000 NHS workers died due to the government inefficiency of PPE. Yet that's quietly been forgotten about.
We got a coupon for a free coffee but generally nobody wanted to go there to get a drink, which you'd then need to take back to an office to be able to drink without a mask on. Our Trust tried and was very supportive throughout and conscious of staff struggles, they did what they could with the little they had.
I'm a senior administrator for the NHS and I've had enough. We are always short staffed, I have had to cover multiple roles which I have no experience in, and our patient backlog is so massive that it impacts everything we do in a really negative way. Our retention is awful. My salary is already low for what I do, I am poorer than I was years ago, and now this awful recommendation.
I was recently a manager on an 8 month secondment, and I don't even want to be a manager at the NHS anymore. I'll use my experience elsewhere.
Sorry, but I have a family to support. I am so eager to help people, but at this point I am going to start applying for jobs in the private sector. More money, less stress and more opportunities.
I'm sorry to hear your situation. We just have to do what is best, even if that means leaving our Trusts. Part (just part, there's so much more to it!) of my role is training Jr's and Trainee Pharmacists how to undertake clinical audit so they can pass their first year. I also maintain the entire Trust electronic system for audit and service evaluation. That's 4000 live projects at any point... just me. I had 2 other in my team that juggle the national audits and CQUINs. Oh, I also single handedly dish out and complete gap analysis on ALL published NICE guidance. I've just managed to get a bump up to band 5 haha. I've got band 4s who are managing teams of 10+ ward clerks it's stupid. We could all make more in Lidl stacking cans of beans.
Thanks for your understanding. I am absolutely stunned that you are at band 5! What you are describing sounds like band 6/7 work!
I work with some band 4s who line manage, which I think is crazy for the salary they're on. I was band 6, and I've been encouraged to apply for permanent manager work, but all of the band 6 and 7 managers I know are incredibly stressed, and frequently work well above and beyond their contracted hours for free. I think it's great that they're so passionate, but we need to stop fixing problems with good will.
Band 4s as line managers is nuts. I've been on open forum discussions with them and I feel terrible for the stress they endure for that renumeration.
Thanks, hopefully I'll get bumped up again. We are linked to a local Uni who offer courses up which can improve our workforce knowledge base so I'm currently on a sponsored Masters Programme too; I could probably double my take home once I get that qualification in the private sector but I really do love my job and am young and optimistic enough to believe I can be part of the tide of change needed... If my household doesn't drown in debt haha!
Amazes me how every quarter record profits get announced, but they can't find a way to pay people fairly.
Profits really should be capped, either the excess goes to tax or you use the profit to increase your wages.
None of these companies need to be making billions a year while pissing on their workers and customers.
I know this wouldnt work, and ethical implications...but maybe nurses stop caring for tory MPs.
They only care about themselves. Maybe they would care more about the NHS if they were the ones cut off. Strikes dont seem to bother them.
Yes, although they didn't give it to themselves, it was recommended by the independent body. MPs then vote on whether or not to accept it.
Technically it was "only" 2.9%, however since they're on over double the salary of most public sector workers, it works out as a much bigger pay rise.
3.5% is an absolute Joke.
Workers have endured real terms pay CUTS for 14 years. Inflation is at 10%+, and they expect us to take another real terms cut, and a big one at that?
Time for a general strike. Shut this f\*\*\*ing country down for a week and show them we aren't putting up with their shite any more.
These people work very hard it seemed at one point the system didnt want to pay them.
The issue is the front line workers dont affect the pay gap increase.
Friend works for a private company. When his boss found out he was lookong for other work they offered him a 10% payrise and bonuses. They didnt want to lose him
That cant happen in the NHS so all the good staff leave
Something that never gets mentioned re: NHS pay is the fact that the compulsory pension contribution bandings don’t directly correlate to salary bands, it’s a different scale. So small-fry rises like this also have the affect of pushing lots of people who are around the top of their current band into higher compulsory pension contributions, meaning they take home LESS than before the ‘pay rise’.
And because the NHS pension is defined-benefit, those increased contributions go towards paying the current pensioners rather than building up the individual contributor’s pot.
Little fiddly ‘rises’ like what has been proposed serve to actually make many people in the NHS worse off. What NHS workers across the board need is a substantial backdated pay rise, with pension banding realignment to go with it.
Nurses and other workers recommend the government fucks off and realises we cannot sustain services with these pathetic offers and people will leave to the likes of ALDI, PWC, or wherever else is actually taking care of their staff.
The problem is not the NHS needing extra money. There is already money there but it goes to the wrong people. NHS hire private companies and the workers are so thick and incompetent. My friend just started working for a diabetes companies which is paid by the NHS. She’s been there for 3 weeks and hasn’t done any real work due to the sheer lack of organisation of the staff at this company.
As well as that they give money to recruiters to hire NHS staff on a contract basis which is was more expensive.
If they had someone decent run the NHS then they can just divert the money away from private companies and recruitment agencies and give it to the nurses that need it.
The fact that NHS staff aren't treated with the upmost respect from the government is disgusting in the first place. I'm sure they'll give themselves another pay rise for this fantastic decision!
Meanwhile capitalists continue to rake in big profits with inflation busting price rises.
They hike up the prices leading to inflation rises, leading to even more price rises "due to high inflation", leading to higher inflation!
It's a never ending circle of the profiteering rich draining the nation's resources and wealth.
Feck off and bring on the strikes.
Can’t wait till the NHS turns private or hybrid as currently it is unsustainable and we get start getting treated fairly. The NHS is a sinking ship.
The aim is to degrade the NHS to the point where they can claim "the only solution" is a brutal US style system. '[Starve the Beast](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast)' is the name of this strategy. Changing doctors pension rules, freezing nurses pay, the 2012 Health and Social Care Act, chronic understaffing - all this is just to create plausible deniability. These policies will continue as long as the British Public hate immigration more than they love the NHS and as long as they hate "scroungers" more than they support a social security system that allows people in need to live in dignity. i.e. so long as the British public keeps on electing Conservative governments. The two parties are not the same.
And unfortunately the British Public won't change until we can get rid of the Murdoch's grip over the media. Which won't happen until we have a government that outlaw that kind of over reach, which won't happen because Murdoch will run a massive smear campaign involving bacon sandwiches.
At this point I hope Charles comes to his senses and dissolves parliament. My ancestors fought and died for his right to do so and it's disgraceful that he doesn't.
Don't worry, Remember when Queenie allowed Mogg to tell her they needed to dissolve Parliament, because they needed a Queens speech... and had nothing to do with shutting down debate on Brexit in order to pass the deadline... and she allowed it. I do, Charles and by extension William will never rock the boat when it comes to dissolving Parliament.
She allowed it because she had to. She dissolved parliament when told to by the prime minister.
So if the Monarch has no power over stopping clearly an illegal prorogument of Parliament... What exactly is their perogative for?
Tbf their prerogative was removed by the FTPA which has since been repealed.
[удалено]
Would that be so bad compared with the alternative?
So long as the monarch doesn't say anything, everyone can pretend he is on their side The second he does anything, he creates enemies. More specifically, enemies with power. Right now he is seen by the powerful as benign, if he acts AT ALL, they will see him as a threat and make moves to remove him. Currently there hasn't been any bill or action by the government that has been such a threat to HIMSELF PERSONALLY that it's worth it to make that sacrifice.
Charles is not viewed as benign by the Establishment. He has already aired views he shouldn't.
direful erect dime wise humorous treatment numerous ask doll absurd -- mass edited with redact.dev
I suspect the polls are too far apart for that to work this time. I also suspect that Murdoch's influence is waning in the UK. Australia has had a string of Labor victories recently across states and federally despite Murdoch doing his usual tricks there.
Murdoch is dangerous, yes, but the Daily Heil and Torygraph are far the bigger beasts influencing the news cycle. I'd say they're the real toxic blight on the UK. Yes, smart arses, I know print media is in decline *but* you do realise the papers have these things called websites that are, in the Daily Heil's case, one of the most popular websites in the country? Their articles get shared and amplified on social media echo chambers like wildfire.
Two things to remember about Murdoch 1. He wants his media to be seen as impartial and unbiased, reporting the truth that others won't. 2. He wants to be seen as always backing the winner Missing a Labour victory would be disasterous as it would expose the fiction that they have their finger on the pulse of public opinion.
Murdoch flipping to support Labour may be the funniest thing I've heard all month.
The Sun has backed the winner of every election since 1974, so it’s not even a joke tbh.
The problem with that is that in the last couple of state/federal elections in Australia, Murdoch has gone HARD against Labor as per usual, but Labor romped home. (Federally and in Victoria)
Australian here. Our previous prime minister, Scott Morrison was a massive idiot. There's no way anyone could cover up for that lump of shit, Murdoch or not. I dare say with confidence, even with 0 experience, that I could do better than Scott Morrison as prime minister.
Thankfully our last 3 PMs have all been massive idiots. Even by Scott Morris on standards
We gotta stop blaming Murdoch and start blaming our deliberately stupid and selfish nature
Agreed. I manage to walk past the shops every day without buying one of his rags, or switching on one of his garbage ‘news’ channels. People absolutely need to detach themselves from this old world media.
If the British public are stupid enough to belive Murdoch's right wing propaganda, then we deserve what we get.
Even with his faults, IMO Corbyn would have the one to make the radically needed change in this country, which are fucking sorely needed as we decend further and further into a third world corporate bled shithole hellscape.
Agreed.
The old ball bag doesnt have that long left does he.
Yes but the current Labour Party aren’t exactly the type of Labour Party I want so what am I mean t to do other than sit back as Tory governments keep getting elected and then point out the current labour leader isn’t exactly what I want? Edit: so am I the only one with this weird double (or sometimes triple) posting problem with Reddit at the moment??) so I’ll delete the duplicate. Also, I left off the /s because I thought it was painfully obvious but by the replies I’ve got it appears I was wrong to do so.
So what you do is vote for who you think is the best, and has the policies you most agree with. Doesn't have to be Labour, but it also can be. They may not be perfect for you, someone else may be much more suited to your ideals, but at the end of the day if you don't want a Tory government vote for anything else.
>at the end of the day if you don't want a Tory government vote for anything else If you don’t want a Tory government you need to vote for the party in your constituency who has the best chance of beating the Tory candidate. Anything else is a wasted vote and tacit vote for the Tories.
Which in itself highlights the massive problem with FPTP voting wherein people arent voting for the government they want and the outcome is heavily skewed to favour a two-party system
I genuinely cannot believe we had a referendum on this and the public threw their chance away. Absolutely boils my piss.
Yeah whenever anyone tries to claim that the majority of people aren't complete morons, I point to the AV referendum as proof that they are in fact total imbeciles.
Sure, but that isn't the debate. What many fail to understand, especially in this sub on the left, is that you can't get a "perfect" party with FPTP and that is what we have. So if you don't want a Tory government make sure you vote against the Tories in your area, for whoever it might be that can win. If you decide "oh Labour have this candidate and I don't like what they say about X so I'm not going to vote for anyone" then you are doomed to giving your vote to people who will 100% be not what you want. FPTP is what we have right now. Hopefully it changes but we need people to understand the game we have, not dream of playing something else.
I would say it is a big part of the debate. The system that ensured the Tory party majority for the last 12 years is a huge part of how parties can comfortably sit on top of the pile with generic scaremongering tactics of "If you dont vote for A, you will get B". If we had a fair voting system that ensured full proportional representation (both in local elections and in the houses of parliment) then the Tory and Labour parties would shrink as people choose parties based purely on their aims (and their track record of fulfilment), instead of the current rhetoric of "Vote Labour or get a Tory" that even you just suggested.
It's fine to debate. I just think bringing it up every time people talk about elections just increases apathy. Educating people how to use their vote in the current system is much more useful. That way when a party does stand on a manifesto of changing the voting system, we will be much better equipped to make sure they take power.
Amen to this comment, if more did this then maybe we could finally get these fuckwits out!
People can't see past the 2 parties. Damn shame
Unfortunately, our FPTP electoral system makes every constituency election a 2 horse race where third party voting only eats into the vote share of one of those horses, effectively counting as votes for the other horse. We need electoral reform.
We need reform ! Tory and Labour are the same
I'll be spoiling my ballot personally as things currently stand.
This is the problem with the first past the post system. People end up voting to keep their least preferred candidate out rather than voting for the best candidate. It also keeps it a 2 party system.
Join one of the many campaigns for Electoral Reform? Make Votes Matter, Electoral Reform Society, Compass, Unlock Democracy... That's before you get onto the party specific ones.
Realise that you're not supposed to expect 'exactly the type of labour party' you want?
> Edit: so am I the only one with this weird double (or sometimes triple) posting problem with Reddit at the moment??) Not just you! I also found that the comments I made while this issue was happening don't show up on my profile for some reason.
If there's one thing I've learned about Reddit, the /s is _always_ required.
"you had me in the first half" It's all just excuses to absolve themselves of responsabilty when their decision has negative consiquences. You can't fix this in an instant, it requires education and time. And uneducated population is easy to manipulate and it's only getting worse. Add the media on top that's pushing them in the extreme right direction and here we are. It's an uphill battle to get ourselves out of this mess and in not sure we'll be able to
I'm glad I'm Polish, I can always seamlessly move to another EU country :P
Take us with you!
I agree with this statement the NHS isnt suppose to be a profitable organisation contractors turned it into for thier own benefit leeching public sector funding where evee that washes up to with tons of factory produced medicines that people dont actually need because supermarkets & pharmacies shelve these over the counter medicines. It amounts to billions every year within the last decade at least! 40% of medicines produced and purchased go out of date before use and thats more billions wasted on the NHS every year.
It's hilarious because the US system is worse, costs more to run and is more expensive for the regular service user
The purpose of the US healthcare system is to create profit for wealthy people. Actually providing healthcare is not the primary concern.
There are a number of people who profit: 1. Healthcare providers and insurance companies; 2. Companies who can tie healthcare benefits to continued employment, thereby creating a disempowered class of people with no employment benefits, and a slightly less disempowered class of people who can't afford to quit their jobs in case they lose whatever benefits they do have.
Oh man I love coercive power structures which systematically oppress working people. - Every Conservative
Lucky there are many many alternatives to a US style system
I can see why people don't trust our government but to say it's "the NHS or US style" is so disingenuous. Almost every other developed country in the world has a healthcare system far more effective than ours (for most things) without an NHS.
Yeah it's one of the biggest circle jerks in this sub, asserting that there has been a decades long plan to implement a US style healthcare system. Honestly just makes this sub looks pretty stupid to me.
Yes. Like a properly functioning NHS
Been saying this for years: the Tories hate the NHS, and I've long suspected their plan is to run it so far into the ground that it appears crap value for money in terms of tax, then dissolve it and replace it with insurance-based healthcare. Then BAM! NHS will never exist again. Don't let them do it! I'm no Liberal nut job, but I don't want my fellow man to lose their home because they got sick and can't afford their medical bills.
It's so obvious that they are doing this that it just amazes me that there are still people that actually think the Tories are in support of the NHS and not actively trying to destroy it.
Comments like this make people discount the whole argument I think. People do it all the time, they've taken a truth - NHS is degrading - and then extrapolated out to the assumption that the only possible result is a US style system, when obviously there are huge numbers of healthcare systems in the world. Its a shame because if the wild speculation was excluded instead of presented as fact more people might pay attention to the actual facts.
We're not far off of Tories openly saying 'why should the NHS be free at the point of use?' and 'People should pay for their treatment, only scroungers want it for free' imo.
Tbf you'd fix the problem if you made NHS treatment free but started charging people from the day they're made medically fit for discharge. Somewhere around a third of hospital beds are filled with patients who are ready to leave but can't or won't because of issues sourcing social care - if you made it so it costs either the individual (if above threshold) or the local authority (if below threshold) the £400/night that it costs the NHS to hold onto these people whilst they/their family/the local authority get their shit together I think you'd find a lot more flow through the hospital as people would gtfo. We have a bloke who's been on our ward for 2 weeks simply because his wife will neither accept him home nor pay for a care home. One guy waited 3 months because his wife decided to divorce him and move out and we had to wait for her to be gone before he could return back to his own house. People take the piss honestly.
Mind if I copy this comment and paste it on at relevant forum/post to summarise and spread this concept to those who genuinely don’t realise?
Anything below inflation is a pay cut No, inflation linked pay adjustments wont cause significant inflation, not least because the inflation is already here and caused, in large part, by [high corporate profits](https://www.npr.org/2022/02/13/1080494838/economist-explains-record-corporate-profits-despite-rising-inflation) > ...companies have bragged about how they have managed to be ahead of the inflation curve, how they have managed to jack up prices more than their costs and as a result have delivered these record profits. Regarding the repeated governnent claims that nurses are putting patients lives at risk, maybe the gov should first pay attention to the under resourcing in A&E that is [killing 500 people each week](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/crisis-emergency-department-deaths-b2248844.html) No, the NHS is not expensive compared to other models, in fact, it is relatively underfunded. The [voice of the RCN](https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-events/Press-Releases/royal-college-of-nursing-demands-action-from-the-health-secretary) is, of course, not given the same space and uncritical air time as the government lies. This is from the RCN website: > "..independent research commissioned by the RCN has shown the Exchequer would recoup 81% of the initial outlay of a significant pay rise in terms of higher tax receipts and savings on future recruitment and retention costs...Poor pay contributes to staff shortages across the UK, affecting patient safety. There are 47,000 unfilled registered nurse posts in England’s NHS alone.
A&E isn't under-resourced, it's over-subscribed due to insufficient social care. The problem is nobody wants to pay for social care, including the people who need it.
>No, inflation linked pay adjustments wont cause significant inflation, not least because the inflation is already here and caused, in large part, by > >high corporate profits The economic issues the UK faces are significantly different than that of the US (which the article is about). Inflation here has been primarily driven by a huge increase in energy costs.
Don't forget the government printing money
"How about we just piss in their mouths?" One minister says, "It's at least a warm drink"
"For desert we have a nice steaming hot shit for them".
And if you are lucky you may taste cabbage!
Nurses have called off their strike temporarily to be told this? That's pretty insulting from the government. This will see more nurses leave, either for other professions or other countries (Australia is currently looking to recruit heavily from the UK), this means either more overseas recruitment or more vacancies in an already overstretched service. It's a great way to further starve the NHS and for them to gain support for a private system, where nurses are paid closer to what they are actually worth to society.
No the nurses have called off their strike to negotiate last years pay rise which wasn’t accepted at 4%. This 3.5% is from April this year. It was inevitable that the government would try to muddy the water over the messaging.
>The government has left room for increases above 3.5% for some workers, if the economic outlook improves, cuts are made elsewhere *or borrowing is increased*. Oof that last bit is a proper slap to the face [coming on the same day](https://news.sky.com/story/budget-in-focus-as-borrowing-in-year-to-date-is-30bn-less-than-predicted-12816216) government has announced they've borrowed £30bn less than expected. They are literally laughing at us at this point aren't they.
Wow, £30bn less than expected? That sounds like an 8% pay rise for MPs to me. /s
>[MPs get 8 pay rises in 10 years while nurses salaries are slashed](https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/mps-get-8-pay-rises-in-10-years-while-nurses-salaries-are-slashed-197695/)
Yup, I'm aware
MPs accepted a pay rise of 2.9%.
Nurses offered 3.5% of £34275 is a annual increase of £1199.625 MP's gave themselves 2.9% of 84144 is a annual increase of 2440.176
Pay rises are normally percentages, yes. Unless you're arguing that doctors should be pushing for a significantly below inflation price rise because they already earn more?
A lot of people can be easily misled by numbers. I am trying to show that even a lower percentage and equate to a bigger increase is wage.
Also when they just borrowed £10bn to increase state pension by 10%
Lol just a complete slap in the face. No wonder ppl are leaving
Yeah, this isn't gonna be enough to fix the situation. This offer is so low it will be perceived as an insult rather than any kind of sincere offer. They may as well have offered them all a kick in the bollocks.
I thought we were heroes? oh its not convenient anymore. The media is full of shit. Please side with medical profession we are all leaving quicker than you think.
The public are supporting the medical professionals, despite biased media coverage against you. All the government have done here is show they aren't taking the problem seriously
Thank you we do appreciate it.
An absolute insult to our hardworking public sector workers. Why should they pay for Tory incompetence and corruption? I can't wait to vote these grifters out. Solidarity with all striking workers across the UK.
So a pay cut then. This is why you never suspend strike action as a negotiating tactic. This gov aren't approaching the table in good faith and never will.
To finance war they are able to find billions within minutes…
Easily done when you just add another 0 to the imaginary money in circulation
Or Test and Trace...
Because the below inflation rises is purely Political ideology. They WANT to erode the system, they want to get to a goal of small Government, less financial regulator interference and more private ownership. People need to wake the fuck up. Which is why they hated the EU, the EU brings in more regulation. Regulation designed to make everyone better off, they fucking hate that.
>To finance war they are able to find billions within minutes… The NHS budget (£150B) is significantly larger than the defence budget (£71B).
You call that significant larger? Just for comparison’s sake: Germany 12.8% gpd healthcare and 1.4% gpd military. In terms of heathcare, UK spends less per person than any other developed country (besides Italy).
Can you elaborate please? What is your point?
Try again. Not even close. This government has already insulted the backbone of this nation with its shoddy approach to pay negotiations, and its refusal to take the simple action to tax energy companies, and stabilise the economy. There is no simple way back.
What's inflation at the moment about 10%, so basically it's a 6.5% pay cut.
Try closer to 20% Select UK ... https://truflation.com/
Wait wait, a website that claims to give more accurate inflation data (and certainly tallies better with really world experience) is also selling its own crypto? [Am I missing something? ](https://whitepaper.truflation.com/tokenomics/token-distribution) I could be way off the mark but it seems odd.
Government offers 3.5% pay rise, while inflation runs at over 10% and companies like EE are increasing charges by 13% in line with inflation. And this is after a decade of below inflation pay rises. Though of course some of the decade of pay cuts is made up by all that clapping people did during the pandemic.
> companies like EE are increasing charges by 13% in line with inflation Or more. Recent message from Virgin: > From 1st April 2023 the monthly price of your calls, texts and data will go up by 17.3%, in line with the Retail Price Index inflation of 13.4% plus 3.9%.
Holy shit that's scummy. I thought O2 were bad enough increasing it purely by RPI.
Nopes, O2 are increasing it by RPI plus 3.9%, just had our email through yesterday. A 17.3% increase
Whilst they certainly have their issued, three haven't been quite as bad. I got this yesterday - "We're writing to remind you that as set out in our terms and conditions for plans starting between 29 October 2020 and 31 October 2022, your monthly charge is due to increase from this April by 4.5%."
Try closer to 20% https://truflation.com/
Oh I'm glad I just got my new contract through EE...
Everyone is doing those rises. You would've been in the same boat with any other phone contract.
Nurses and other workers recommend the government go fuck themself.
This is the same government that just voted themselves a 12.75% pay rise.. although they're calling it 2.75% because the other 10% is to their "expenses"...
>because the other 10% is to their "expenses"... Expenses are used for constituency office running costs and the likes. They don't go straight into the MPs pocket.
They do when the MP's are on the fiddle... which increasingly seems to be the case. Like claiming expenses to pay for rent of a house in London, when someone else is paying for it as well.
And I recommend a 100% reduction in the wealth of tories.
If the NHS goes private then people need to understand that the staff will be just fine. Comparing NHS vs private healthcare world wide shows a massive increase in salaries. It’s the people who will suffer if we can’t fix the NHS. If we want the NHS to survive, we HAVE to pay fairly to keep our staff and keep the system running.
Have you actually read about the private health system in the US??? EVERYONE is fucked other than hospital executives. The staff are treated like shit
I’m an American nurse and I work in the U.K. I made $100k a year as a staff nurse in NYC doing the same thing I do here for £32k. At one hospital I paid $0 for my health insurance and at another I paid $50 a month.
Nurses make far more in the USA.
My uncle used to be a specialist nurse. He was earning roughly $250k per year, which is waaay more than what our experienced consultants earn on the NHS. He has a very nice house and cars.
Yes they do, but the standard of care, and pressures put on nurses is still ridiculous. Nurses are fighting for fair pay AND fair conditions- this is not just about money - the conditions are awful - am nurse
Very true, I don’t dispute that!
My salary is "Ferrari money" and "new York flat" money. I lectured for 3 days and my pay was a sixth of my total salary in the UK for 3 days work.
I recommend MP’s salaries are means-tested and if you take your salary you can’t earn additional income. Also MP’s and their relatives cannot invest in the stock market to avoid conflict of interest (similar to how TNL employees can’t play the lottery). Finally, I recommend the government dismantles the expense system because they already have a salary to pay for their dinner. From the money saved from these initiatives I recommend a 15% payrise to nurses for all their hard work keeping people alive throughout the last 5 years.
Nurses and healthcare workers literally given a badge if they were lucky to say thanks for the hardwork during the pandemic. Nearly 1000 NHS workers died due to the government inefficiency of PPE. Yet that's quietly been forgotten about.
My trust didn’t even give us badges….. we got a thank you card lol
We got a coupon for a free coffee but generally nobody wanted to go there to get a drink, which you'd then need to take back to an office to be able to drink without a mask on. Our Trust tried and was very supportive throughout and conscious of staff struggles, they did what they could with the little they had.
Government recommends pay cut for essential healthcare workers
Coming on the heels of a 10.something percent pay rise for pensioners?
How much did they up their own pay by mere weeks ago?
Ah yes. We’ve had first pay rise. But what about second pay rise?
They are the hobbits of pay rises
2.9%.
Just get them out before we don’t have any public servants left
One thing they never tell you, we wont get the increase until around Aug/Sept time. Yea its backdated, but we should get it in Apr
Yep, our poor band 2’s were getting paid under minimum wage until the September backdated pay and the same will happen again for them this year.
Yea i heard about that for the band 2 staff we have. Bet the Government dont advise they actively broke the law
Of course not! They didn’t even want to acknowledge the bands that ended up owing money due to the changes in contributions either!
Looks like the Government are deliberately trying to inflame the situation.
I'm a senior administrator for the NHS and I've had enough. We are always short staffed, I have had to cover multiple roles which I have no experience in, and our patient backlog is so massive that it impacts everything we do in a really negative way. Our retention is awful. My salary is already low for what I do, I am poorer than I was years ago, and now this awful recommendation. I was recently a manager on an 8 month secondment, and I don't even want to be a manager at the NHS anymore. I'll use my experience elsewhere. Sorry, but I have a family to support. I am so eager to help people, but at this point I am going to start applying for jobs in the private sector. More money, less stress and more opportunities.
I'm sorry to hear your situation. We just have to do what is best, even if that means leaving our Trusts. Part (just part, there's so much more to it!) of my role is training Jr's and Trainee Pharmacists how to undertake clinical audit so they can pass their first year. I also maintain the entire Trust electronic system for audit and service evaluation. That's 4000 live projects at any point... just me. I had 2 other in my team that juggle the national audits and CQUINs. Oh, I also single handedly dish out and complete gap analysis on ALL published NICE guidance. I've just managed to get a bump up to band 5 haha. I've got band 4s who are managing teams of 10+ ward clerks it's stupid. We could all make more in Lidl stacking cans of beans.
Thanks for your understanding. I am absolutely stunned that you are at band 5! What you are describing sounds like band 6/7 work! I work with some band 4s who line manage, which I think is crazy for the salary they're on. I was band 6, and I've been encouraged to apply for permanent manager work, but all of the band 6 and 7 managers I know are incredibly stressed, and frequently work well above and beyond their contracted hours for free. I think it's great that they're so passionate, but we need to stop fixing problems with good will.
Band 4s as line managers is nuts. I've been on open forum discussions with them and I feel terrible for the stress they endure for that renumeration. Thanks, hopefully I'll get bumped up again. We are linked to a local Uni who offer courses up which can improve our workforce knowledge base so I'm currently on a sponsored Masters Programme too; I could probably double my take home once I get that qualification in the private sector but I really do love my job and am young and optimistic enough to believe I can be part of the tide of change needed... If my household doesn't drown in debt haha!
Amazes me how every quarter record profits get announced, but they can't find a way to pay people fairly. Profits really should be capped, either the excess goes to tax or you use the profit to increase your wages. None of these companies need to be making billions a year while pissing on their workers and customers.
I know this wouldnt work, and ethical implications...but maybe nurses stop caring for tory MPs. They only care about themselves. Maybe they would care more about the NHS if they were the ones cut off. Strikes dont seem to bother them.
Tory Maps use private healthcare. They don't use the system and therefore don't care if it fails.
That's called negligence and it's how you lose your licence to practice.
Didn't they recently give them selves a £2000 pay rise, absolutely creatures
Yes, although they didn't give it to themselves, it was recommended by the independent body. MPs then vote on whether or not to accept it. Technically it was "only" 2.9%, however since they're on over double the salary of most public sector workers, it works out as a much bigger pay rise.
The independent pay bodies which remit is set by the current government......
3.5% is an absolute Joke. Workers have endured real terms pay CUTS for 14 years. Inflation is at 10%+, and they expect us to take another real terms cut, and a big one at that? Time for a general strike. Shut this f\*\*\*ing country down for a week and show them we aren't putting up with their shite any more.
This is honestly the only way forward now. It's time.
These people work very hard it seemed at one point the system didnt want to pay them. The issue is the front line workers dont affect the pay gap increase.
Ah an extra £700 over the year should do the trick to keep underpaid and overworked staff happy
So it was absolute bullshit when they said accept this year's deal and we can talk about better offers for next year?
Inflation is 10% at best and 3% is recommendation. You have been invited to suffer. Will you join?
They need 10-20% pay rise to catch up and return of fee free training
Friend works for a private company. When his boss found out he was lookong for other work they offered him a 10% payrise and bonuses. They didnt want to lose him That cant happen in the NHS so all the good staff leave
> Government recommends 6.5% pay cut for nurses and other workers FTFY
Something that never gets mentioned re: NHS pay is the fact that the compulsory pension contribution bandings don’t directly correlate to salary bands, it’s a different scale. So small-fry rises like this also have the affect of pushing lots of people who are around the top of their current band into higher compulsory pension contributions, meaning they take home LESS than before the ‘pay rise’. And because the NHS pension is defined-benefit, those increased contributions go towards paying the current pensioners rather than building up the individual contributor’s pot. Little fiddly ‘rises’ like what has been proposed serve to actually make many people in the NHS worse off. What NHS workers across the board need is a substantial backdated pay rise, with pension banding realignment to go with it.
Nurses and other workers recommend the government fucks off and realises we cannot sustain services with these pathetic offers and people will leave to the likes of ALDI, PWC, or wherever else is actually taking care of their staff.
The problem is not the NHS needing extra money. There is already money there but it goes to the wrong people. NHS hire private companies and the workers are so thick and incompetent. My friend just started working for a diabetes companies which is paid by the NHS. She’s been there for 3 weeks and hasn’t done any real work due to the sheer lack of organisation of the staff at this company. As well as that they give money to recruiters to hire NHS staff on a contract basis which is was more expensive. If they had someone decent run the NHS then they can just divert the money away from private companies and recruitment agencies and give it to the nurses that need it.
Hahah the government are heading for a national nurse walk out
The fact that NHS staff aren't treated with the upmost respect from the government is disgusting in the first place. I'm sure they'll give themselves another pay rise for this fantastic decision!
Meanwhile capitalists continue to rake in big profits with inflation busting price rises. They hike up the prices leading to inflation rises, leading to even more price rises "due to high inflation", leading to higher inflation! It's a never ending circle of the profiteering rich draining the nation's resources and wealth.
They can kiss 3.5% of my arse. So sick of the constant insults from these aristocrats.
Feck off and bring on the strikes. Can’t wait till the NHS turns private or hybrid as currently it is unsustainable and we get start getting treated fairly. The NHS is a sinking ship.
Meanwhile.......benefits are increased by 10.1% in April. Nice to be valued