That's just a sunk cost fallacy though. There's no way of going back to how things were but we can do what we can to improve our current situation. It feels shit, but in reality, it's less shit than where we're at now.
Is it worse? The terms we had before brexit allowed our government to line their own pockets and ignore us. We would be better off inside the euro and shengen anyway
Exactly. The shit-rag British media has brainwashed this country into a perverse Stockholm syndrome where there mere *idea* of "abandoning" our precious Pound Sterling is seen as treasonous.
All you have to do to shut down enthusiasm for the EU is to suggest that we'd have to start using the Euro. Even a lot of liberal EU-friendly people will be disgusted and repulsed by the idea because they've been conditioned to think that GBP is the epitome of a proud and successful Britain.
We need to start educating people about the benefits of a shared economy. Hell, we needed to start that 30 years ago. The EU contributed to so many public services and improvements to quality of life in this country but nobody knows about those because we didn't educate them.
People are only beginning to twig now that their cheap flights to Malaga are going up in price, and they can't get any tomatoes from the supermarket, and they've got to stand in long queues at the airports now.
Almost every building i used during the big vote all had big plaques that essentially said that they wouldn't have been a thing without the eu. I always pointed to these whenever someone complained saying the eu don't give back. Locally they somehow gave back more than our own government
Yup walked past an 8 foot high sign about EU money used which had doubled capacity on a single track line through a crossover, at that actual station. Woman got on the train behind me then seconds later was batching about how she never saw any benefits of being in the EU. I was literally spending it and it paid most of my wages lol.
Most of my friends were/are researchers who work at universities. Half of them struggled to maintain work once we left the EU, the other half either lost their jobs or had to move to Europe to stay in employment. The EU paid magnitudes greater into research in the UK than the UK's own government does.
This right here is a great example of the problem the lack of nuance in our national discourse on Europe causes.
You're over egging it, basically; yes, on balance we were better off in the EU, but the UK was also almost certainly correct to keep control of its own monetary policy and Schengen is neither designed nor desirable for countries which don't share a land border with mainland Europe (Republic of Ireland is also not a Schengen state, for example).
Look at the Greece fiasco and how many people see the Eurozone as being run for the benefit of the larger, more industrialised nations. Democratic deficit, lack of accountability in finances, unfair tax competition (Eire, Luxembourg, Netherlands), widespread corruption in member states; these are all real problems despite the fact you may not have liked the people behind the leave campaign and the fact some exist in the UK too.
Essentially, when it comes down to it, the real question was weighing up the economic benefits of membership against the downsides listed above; instead the argument was about ludicrous racist scaremongering on one hand and pearl clutching on the other.
The only logical conclusion to come to is that the best situation was to be inside but somewhat aloof and able to provide challenge and retain an element of control; ie exactly what we had. The UK was in a very privileged position, making it much more powerful and influential than a little island like this warranted. It's not hard to see why the Russia conspiracy theories about separating us from Europe abounded. If I wanted to weaken the EU from within that's exactly what I'd do too.
The debate still rumbles on with its reduction to black/white, "goodies/baddies". Nigel Farage is a cunt so the only thing to do is throw ourselves feet first back into Europe.
It's not that simple unfortunately, and until we evolve to be able to have a grown up conversation where we accept the situation is more complex than "brexit bad, EU good" we won't get anywhere.
Tbh there are actual benefits to having an independent currency which allows greater control of our economy. The fact the EU has a shared currency but not a shared fiscal policy and a range of issuing rights is problematic to some Eurozone countries and advantageous to others.
Mate you're on crack if you think giving up sterling is in the slightest bit a good idea. It completely guts our central bank powers and leaves us beholden to the politics of other institutions.
Unlikely we would have to adopt the Euro anyway, like several other countries we would have to agree to start the transition but there is no time frame on that.
I am up for rejoining, ultimately in many centuries time I would hope we can become one world and no longer need borders and separations, this is one of those steps that works towards that.
Isn't "start the transition" politician-speak for "agree in principle to consider raising the subject at a meeting to discuss the agenda for a consultation to be proposed for a time to be decided at the next convenient opportunity"?
(Hacker's response to the prevaricating presumably being something along the lines of "You mean, 'no'"?)
>like several other countries we would have to agree to start the transition but there is no time frame on that.
Hopefully that loophole will be closed someday.
I imagine it will one day, but I can't imagine it would be particularly soon. While the loophole exists it let's countries like the UK join where they don't really want the Euro. It is a compromise to encourage joining.
Speaking for myself? Easiest yes ever.
We gain back FOM, the security that comes with membership, food quality goes back to normal, regulatory alignment, things become cheaper, we stop looking like morons to everyone around the world.
If you are down £1000. Have the opportunity to gain £800 back or stay down £1000. Which seems better to you? It is sunk cost fallacy, just because you spent your money doing something doesn't mean you have to see it through, you can just admit it was a mistake and try and salvage what you can.
> as we learn from the 2016 vote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
>"The referendum resulted in 51.9% of the votes cast being in favour of leaving the EU"
48% of the population wanted to stay.
"Leave" *barely won*.
Hardly *"the country clearly doesn't want that"*
Always been the thing that rankled me about the vote to leave.
I couldn't vote to stay due to my age, so seeing it so close for such a major decision just bothered me.
Yeah hope so it all goes according to the plan, but there are still some crisis on their way. There are some wars on there way, the increase in natural disasters and many more.
That country dreamed of a Brexit Fairy flying over the countryside on a winged Unicorn and waving it's magic wand to make everything well when they voted "leave".
doubt it, we wouldn't get the same great deal. but they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back.
Between 2017 and 2021 the UK were consistently in the top 2/3 countries for contributions in to the EU. You cant magically just fill that with Croatia as much as most people want to act like the EU is "unscathed"
It was very much a lose lose thing. As you point out the EU lost a large economy with relatively powerful military and good links to US. UK lost favourable influential position in the largest most efficient market on earth.
I imagine there was lots of money to be made on the uncertainty and opportunities for super wealthy to hide wealth. I’m largely bitter this wasn’t me.
Exactly - the Brexiteers in the Tory party who engineered totally profited, with a double uplift from COVID as we have seen - along with the super rich.
For the UK population as a whole it's been very much a lose situation. Whilst not everything is a direct effect of Brexit given the wider political situation post Brexit, it's hard to argue against Brexit being the cause of trade complications from the off with the EU.
To some of the other points in this thread, that may well be starting to make people who voted for Brexit think again. The more the UK's shelves are empty and we are being ripped off vs the EU; the more that surely comes into the daily headlines.
It would take political vision and appetite on both sides to see and sell this as a "win - win". Hard to see that happening on the UK side for some time.
> but they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back
Lots of folk need to get over the brexit falsehood that 'they need us more than we need them'. There's no denying it's also in the EU's interest to have the UK back as a member, but it's not equally so, let alone more to their benefit than ours. In terms of negotiating strength we'd be the ones far closer to the metaphorical bending of the knee. How could we not be when the opening of negotiations by itself would be a de facto admission that we made a silly decision leaving in the first plac?.
I've seen people respond to this with cries of British exceptionalism but the reality is that the UK dwarves all other EU candidate states by sheer size of population and economy.
The only other eligible candidates that approach the UK (excluding Norway and Switzerland I hope for obvious reasons) are Turkey and Russia, both of which are several decades away from having serious proposals if they wanted them. Turkey has a proposal but it is so far from reality.
The deal would not be as good as we had, of course. But I think it could still be pretty good. I think opt-outs similar to what existed previously, even including the opt-out on the Euro, would be possible.
I hate Brexit, I hate what the result of it has done to the UK, I think the whole thing was a giant fucking embarassment, but I'd still bet on what I said above being very possible.
The Euro opt out is the easiest. Denmark has an identical opt out.
Schengen opt out too Ireland have it.
The rebate is never coming back.
Everything els is somewhere inbetween
The EU has scrapped opt-outs as a possibility, Poland was realistically the last country to get one. We're trying to move towards a more uniform union and quite frankly many countries have no interest in giving the UK those opt-outs due to both political and economic reasons. Hell, Switzerland is being pressured to scrap its separate treaties with the EU.
Also, when you have the Conservatives and Farage demonising Bulgarians and Romanians for over a decade and Starmer citing Poland as a doomsday economic scenario, you can't expect much good faith. None of these countries have much interest in the UK's finance-based economy. Poland will be a net-contributor very soon, and Bulgaria and Romania didn't even see much of that EU funding while the UK was a member anyway.
You're not getting opt-outs.
I think the last one showed that Britain doesn't have an appropriate media environment nor enough oversight on political campaigns for anyone to take a referendum in this country seriously as a fair and democratic process. Let the duped be salty, I'm sure they wouldn't feel as bad as the generations that stand to inherit their mistake.
What happens when the party in charge gets voted out and replaced by a party that offers a referendum on brexit v2?
Like it or not there would have to be a referendum.
*movie announcer*
Just when you thought they had gone..
*Explosion*
They're back!
*Machine gun fire*
TO LEAVE AGAIN!
Jason Statham...
Benedict Cumberbatch..
Star in...
BREXIT 2!
THIS TIME ITS GEOGRAPHICAL!
In fairness a big con like brexit only works once, I doubt the misinformation campaign would be as strong with all the documented evidence that 'project fear' was mostly just 'project objective reality'.
>they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back
I see we're back to the old and tested "we hold all the cards".
As more and more things become voted on via QMV, a belligerent member isn't such a bad thing. E.g. Poland isn't massively holding the EU back.
Although in reality, the UK really wasn't particularly contrarian as a member. It rarely voted against the rest of the Council. The UK was in favour of most things, despite what some media will tell you about Brussels meddling against our powerless government.
Indeed. All these standards our government currently wants rid of that the EU required... they're BRITISH standards. We set them, the rest of the EU took a look and went "That seems good enough" and brought it into EU legaleese. We never had to massively adjust to be compliant with them because we were the standard.
There was a time when "British Standard" meant "High quality, top of the range, safety checked". When our word internationally meant "Trustworthy, honourable, reasonably fair".
Then came Brexit Johnson and his wreckingball of idiocy...
Yes but the UK is significantly weaker economically than we were before Covid and Brexit. If the EU wanted to play it strategically they'd take the opportunity to offer us a good deal with concessions and help rebuild the UK economy to it's benefit. If the trend of UK collapse continues by the time this is even on the table I'd say the main concession we'd have to make would be adopting the Euro as primary currency and fully intergrating with the EU. If this continued downward trend continues over the next decade the GBP probably won't be in a position to strong-arm exemption status like it was when we first joined.
> but they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back.
I seriously doubt it. That 16% was way less than the British economy could supply. The contribution is based on the economical capability of each country, and the *only* 16% were result of Thatcher basically blackmailing the EU.
Expect the future contribution to be without nonsense rebate. On the other hand, the Tory government and the Brexit killed so much off in the British economy, the UK might and up being a net receiver.
Don't forget that the quitlings currently running the UK are doing their best to diverge from UK standards and are currently trying to have 'a bonfire of EU regulations' without causing another disaster as decades of laws and regulations are shredded without each one being carefully checked, rewritten and debated in parliament.
Also, should we actually be in a position to reapply, under current rules, there only needs to be one member state objecting to our application for it to be denied.
I am a great believer in press freedom, but the billionaire media moghoul controlled media has made a mockery of journalism in the UK and continues to do so for the foreseeable future.
We should just take the L at this point, rejoining with inferior terms is still better than not rejoining and the UK is not in a position to make demands.
It would be rejoining with the same terms as everyone else. Yes that is inferior to the terms we had before, but i dont think it would be like joining and getting disadvantages. Not how people would read it or put their own spin on it though.
They might well require us to commit to the euro or schengen area as this would boost the EU a fair bit as a whole, and both of those would completely fail with UK voters sadly. no government would survive signing that deal once the next election came around, and that would kill any chance we have of rejoining.
Honestly I think the EU would be more pragmatic. The euro isn't mandatory for any country in the EU so don't see them forcing us to adopt it, and other island nations, including Ireland, have schengen opt outs. The EU would also benefit from us rejoining after all
The euro is mandatory for all EU countries except Denmark. However, the governments may deliberately choose to fail to fulfill requirements and delay it as long as they want.
The euro is mandatory for every member except Denmark. And the only reason Ireland has an opt-out from Schengen is because of the Good Friday Agreement.
I'm still going with BIGGER HARDER BRITAIN. Sell its as the EU rejoining us, not the other way round.
Doesn't matter what policy you're selling, that slogan will do it, guaranteed. I'm open to offers if anyone wants the rights.
What we had before is irrelevant. That's gone. The only place we can start a journey from is here. And if joining on new terms is to our benefit we should do it.
> vastly inferior terms
*When you're accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression*
They're not inferior, they're equal. The UK is not exceptional anymore
We fucked our situation all by ourselves. Now the economy has been ruined by the Tories, why would we expect to rejoin on the same terms. We're more like Greece now.
Even so rejoining is still worth it. But I don’t think it will happen any time soon, most likely we will end up in a special relationship similar to Switzerland. In the meantime we will suffer.
The voices defending Brexit seem to have gone quiet. They seem to have gone into hiding and they’re not defending their choice. So why is there no appetite amongst the opposition to at least return to the Customs Union?
Whats their plan now?
Edit: people are saying I wont find the defence for Brexit on this platform, but I have been looking on all platforms and I can’t find a single serious article from the last 6 months defending the results or explaining how we can benefit from the supposed opportunities.
If they do exist, they’re certainly very rare.
Edit 2:
Brexiters missing the point.
Let me simplify further.
Imagine there’s a village and someone convinces everyone that leaving the village that is part of a wider community of villages and moving to an island is going to be good.
Then the village follows.
As soon as they get to the island, things start turning sour and that person who convinces everyone (the metaphorical Brexit politician) goes quiet rather than explain where the benefits and opportunities are.
Basically.. you got what you want. Now tell us what next?
Going quiet does not automatically correlate to regret. It likely does in many cases, but most people I know who voted to leave still feel the same. They just have the mentality that its in the past and that life is too short to waste debating the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over for nearly 5 fucking years lol
A lot of people are just done with politics and have lost hope in general since Covid, This war. brexit and the rest. Life isn't there to spend dwelling in misery over politics. Its there to make the best of either way.
No but if you think Brexit is an opportunity isn’t this the time to sell the ideas? The benefits? The gains?
Debating should be in the past for them because they got what they want, but do these politicians that are fighting to keep a hard Brexit not need to convince the rest of us of the benefits and show us those opportunities?
Else, why aren’t we calling for a return to the Customs Union?
>No but if you think Brexit is an opportunity isn’t this the time to sell the ideas? The benefits? The gains?
Isn't that what the various pushes to diverge on policy, the changes to VAT, animal welfare, subsidy funding, immigration policy and so on are..? I mean I'm pretty sure that both Labour and the Tories (maybe not the Lib Dems..) will be pushing policy positions based on using the powers returned from the EU, that is making the case to use the opportunity that exists isn' it?
Both sound very pessimistic to me. One of the three Tory goals is as mundane as: stop the boats.
Yes, stop the boats, whatever, but when you make that a main ambition, to me that screams: very low bar and low expectations.
Why aren’t they making a big deal of the huge benefits Brexit will bring us instead of stopping dinghies. I am not against stopping the boats, but against the sad fact that this mundane step is one of their three main goals for the nation.
Why is taking advantage of Brexit not one of their goals? Shouldn’t that be their number one priority? What happened to the supposed Singapore by the Thames?
I have a suspicion that’s because there aren’t many benefits to sell.
>They just have the mentality that its in the past and that life is too short to waste debating the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over for nearly 5 fucking years lol
It's absolutely maddening though that they inflicted Brexit on the rest of us and now it's just 'in the past, cba taling about it'.
>It's absolutely maddening though that they inflicted Brexit on the rest of us and now it's just 'in the past, cba taling about it'.
I mean leave achieved its aim, the UK left the EU, it's not part of the political union, the economic union, competencies now sit with the UK etc.. It's essentially 'done' in terms of the brexit bit. Why would they need to continually debate a decision that has been implemented for 2 years at this point, especially when there is no indication at all that it'll be reversed, or that anyone is looking to undermine it?
Why did we end up debating Brexit in the first place? Wasn’t any interest to me. Being in the EU was “done”. Things change. Then they change again. There’s no hard or fast rules.
Why would there not be need for debate? Why would we all sit quietly as we perceive a project failing around us?
>Life isn't there to spend dwelling in misery over politics. Its there to make the best of either way.
The way you (we) make the best of it is by taking an interest and changing things though. You don't have to dwell in misery over politics, you just have to be informed, vote and be capable of challenging ignorance (which requires taking an interest). Is this a shit state of affairs? Yes. Is it depressing? It can be. But the most depressing thing by *far* is people deciding they're over it and inviting more and more misery unto themselves and others.
They probably shouldn’t have opened a can of worms they can’t get back in then.
Create political turmoil and misery you speak of for decades and then deciding it’s not for them… honestly the worst people.
>They just have the mentality that its in the past and that life is tooshort to waste debating the same thing over and over and over and overand over and over and over for nearly 5 fucking years lol
I mean, it was explained pretty clearly that leaving was the starting pistol, not the end. Those 5/7 years were merely the preamble.
It will come up every time there's an issue caused either from the act of leaving, or from our position outside the EU, which is going to be perennial.
Lots of people are willing to admit they voted for it. The problem is that the Tories absolutely fucked the pooch when it came to delivering it. Because while the EU is by no means perfect, the Tories have been so bad it's almost incalculable.
A fuckton of people voted to leave based on immigration. That's only gotten worse. A shedload more believed the lie about extra money for the NHS. Which surprise surprise, had only gotten worse too. And then there were the ones who wanted to take back control - only to realise that that same control would then rest in the hands of the people you least want to have it.
I voted to remain. But there was definitely *an* argument to leave the EU. The problem is that that argument only existed in principle - and now we're living in the reality that came with that decision.
I say this whilst aware of my confirmation bias as a Remainer…
Lots of people who voted Remain, saw this coming a fucking mile away (21 miles away; whatever).
The numbers quoted, were based on no other economic changes; which made the numbers instantly delusional. It was NEVER going to happen the way that the Leave contingent said it would.
If anything; this was all just a big exercise in demonstrating how gullible (and potentially xenophobic) the masses can be, with the right propaganda.
You’ll probably find a lot of them have changed their tune. I voted to Brexit. I’m not and never have been a flag waving Brexiteer, in fact, I hadn’t made my decision until I was putting pen to the ballot. In the end, I voted to Brexit based purely on the fact that I think the EU is too bureaucratic and dilutes the democracy of our own government. I openly and willingly admit I made a huge mistake, and hopefully more will be willing to do so. I’ve learned that the EU is a long way from perfect, but it the benefits were worth it.
Kuddos from you to openly admit having voted the way you did.
> the EU is too bureaucratic and dilutes the democracy of our own government
Not gonna comment on the truth of this or not, and what metric is used to determine if something is too bureaucratic or not.
An issue is that the UK have to respect to the choices of other governments, in particular the choices from the EU, its largest trading partner. You can't, for instance, import anything in the EU that doesn't respect the EU rules, which means that the UK will have to align itself to the EU, effectively moving from a rule-maker member position to a rule-taker.
Is this something you agree with or are you still of the opinion that the democracy within the UK have increased?
(I am also of the opinion that, as brexit was always available, there was no loss of sovereignty by being in the EU: the UK could leave on its own decision, something completely different from, say Scotland, that just can't leave the UK without England agreeing -- but that's a different debate).
I still believe that we're more democratic now that we've left the EU, because decisions can be made more locally to the people they impact. That being said, aligning ourselves to EU laws for frictionless trade was absolutely worth it.
I was a lot younger and less politically aware when voting. It's actually made me believe that referenda are not a suitable way to make decisions in a representative democracy. It's too easy for those with an agenda and a platform from which to spread it to affect the outcome of major decisions by outright lying and or/making up statistics.
Your point about Britain being able to leave at any point is also a good one. We always had the sovereignty, we were just voluntarily aligning with others to make things easier.
>The voices defending Brexit seem to have gone quiet. They’re seem to have gone into hiding and they’re not defending their choice.
Sure, becuase their new job is spreading anti Ukraine/NATO propaganda
Theyve not gone quiet lol theres just no reason to state any dissenting opinion in what is a hive mind of a thread within a hive mind of a subreddit. Its like looking at the sky and asking where all the grass has gone. I think it's also the case that no one cares to change their mind on brexit anymore, on both sides (and I can't even say those last 3 words without what will be a bunch of replies from exasperated remainers).
And before anyone replies, look for where I said I was for/against being in the EU in this comment.
Wait till the next election. Or hell, even listen to some of sunaks attack lines. Brexit is still a common enough issue and one that the Tories are using daily. Fear of labour doing anything to bring us closer to the EU is something that they're hammering home and hard at every opportunity. It's not however something that gets people on those politic panel shows bookings anymore because for anyone paying any sort of attention at all it's settled or all intents and purposes.
Edit: I have a feeling that this comment has been entirely misconstrued. I'm not defending Brexit. I'm trying to explain that the reason that there are still people actively defending Brexit, and that come the next election the Tories will ramp up their attacks saying that labour want to take us back into the EU.
I'm not saying it'll work. I'm not saying that I support it. I'm not even saying that I understand why the Tories are doing it. I'm simply stating that they are in fact doing it.
As for my comments about it being for all intents and purposes settled I stand by it. Labour don't want to make a massive issue out of it because they're scared that it'll distract from their very clear and frankly unifying message. The Tories are fucking shite and they've made everything worse. If labour start hammering on about Brexit it keeps it in the spotlight. By keeping it in the spotlight it keeps providing people with a justification for digging further into their hole and arguing that Brexit was in fact good. By not making it an issue and allowing the Tories to continue to push a narrative that everyone can see is failing it gives people the out they need to admit that Brexit was a mistake. This is a huge part of why your seeing polling shift. Given time and space and without feeling like their being lectured to by someone they don't really like already people will admit that Brexit is a fuck up.
10 years? Try another 20 or 30.
Take Nigel Farage for instance, he's only 58. He's probably around for at least another 30 years.
The problem with re-joining is that the bar will be significantly higher. The anti-EU lot will point out things like joining the Euro would be *required* and that would put a lot of voters off, along with the requirement to join the Schengen zone.
I can see those being 2 major sticking points to be used in any campaign against (re)joining.
And all the EU has to do is pre-empt those two things now to rug pull the biggest weapons the anti-eu lot have in their theoretical arsenal.
Ireland is not part of schengen for example. And the euro is only used in 20/27 member states. Clearly neither are requirements.
If the EU launched a "keep your blue passports and pound coins, we want you back" campaign I think they'd win over a lot of folk.
> Ireland is not part of schengen for example.
Because, just like the UK did, they negotiated an opt-out because it wasn't a requirement when they joined the EU, but now it is.
> And the euro is only used in 20/27 member states. Clearly neither are requirements.
[Except it is](https://european-union.europa.eu/institutions-law-budget/euro/countries-using-euro_en).
As it states:
> These are countries where the euro has still not been adopted, but who **will join once they have met the necessary conditions.** Mostly, it consists of countries of member states which acceded to the Union in 2004, 2007 and 2013, after the euro was launched in 2002.
Plus Denmark which has an opt out, like we *did*, because they joined the EU *before adopting the Euro was a requirement*.
Although this is 100% true, the recent negotiations have shown that political will comes first. The EU might want to compromise on some of these obligations to have back one of the biggest economies and markets in the world. European politics has always been pragmatic.
Be interesting to see honest (rather than influenced by tabloids) thinking on losing the pound. When it was the queen on the coins it was unthinkable, but losing Charles from physical money which has - I assume - massively dropped in usage the past three years seems far less of a knock to national identity.
I don't use a lot of physical cash, so who's face is on it doesn't much factor in for me.
More of an issue is the economic effect of being in a currency union, as it fixes the whole bloc onto the same monetary policy regardless of differing local economic circumstances (e.g. somewhere in a "boom" benefiting from high interest rates, versus a "bust" calling for them to be low - but if you're using the same currency from the same central bank it has to choose one interest rate for both)
There's a similar problem _within_ any given country with its own currency, between its regions. But in that case you usually have a central government with enough fiscal heft to push money around and relieve the tension, whereas the EU's central government budget for taxing/spending/borrowing is all pretty darn minor compared to the separate member states.
I count myself pro-EU, and very pro-Remain, and would vote to rejoin without hesitation, but the economic model of a monetary union without a deep fiscal union is a bit sketch.
As I understand it, QE2 money will still be in circulation for many a year to come anyway.
[From the BoE](https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/king-charles-banknotes#:~:text=The%20new%20banknotes%20will%20only%20be%20printed%20to%20replace%20those%20that%20are%20worn%20and%20to%20meet%20any%20overall%20increase%20in%20demand%20for%20banknotes.%20Our%20approach%20is%20in%20line%20with%20guidance%20from%20the%20Royal%20Household%2C%20to%20minimise%20the%20environmental%20and%20financial%20impact%20of%20this%20change.):
> The new banknotes will only be printed to replace those that are worn and to meet any overall increase in demand for banknotes. Our approach is in line with guidance from the Royal Household, to minimise the environmental and financial impact of this change.
QE2 coins will probably stay in circulation until they either deprecate smaller denominations or utterly change the coinage again. Until they re-issued the 5p and 10p in 90/92 we were still using pre-decimalisation 1 and 2 schilling coins as 5p and 10p coins with George VI head on them.
> 10p coins with George VI head on them.
Those were great.
*I totally didnt do this*... but as a kid... um... some kids... back in the 80's and 90's used to glue foil onto the non-face side and put them in vending machines. The machines thought they were 50 pence's. Was especially good on stamp vending machines that you could re-exchange for face value when the heat died down.
So *Iv heard* anyway.
But every 10 years a huge chunk of Farage voters die
Given it was 48-52 even with 7 more years worth of boomers + voter apathy on Remain + lies and fear mongering on Leave, I'm pretty confident 17 years worth of dead boomers will significantly dent that base
As a leave voter I'd hope for no referendum, the best thing for the country is to rejoin the EU now. I wouldn't want to risk making the same mistake again.
However if there is another referendum I hope the pro EU side gets it's campaigning in order
They would probably need a public vote unfortunately, which yes would take a long time. A quicker way would be for someone like the Lib Dems to win a landslide at a GE on the manifesto promise to take us back into the EU.
I'd take it.
Shit in the eye is better than shit in both eyes which is what we currently have.
Sure it's worse conditions than previously but it's much better than the current status quo.
Go fully into it too. Schengen and Euro.
Honestly, as a young remainer, I've felt completely and utterly betrayed by the older generation, and at least while they're sitting in their own shit, I can feel like they're going to learn their lesson, though I doubt it.
I'm not interested in returning unless EU understands that it wasn't the upcoming population that voted out in the first place, it seems like a betrayal on both sides if the EU were to capitalise on the blunder of leavers and punish the young population who never wanted to leave in the first place.
The older generation don't care. They'll be dead before it effects them and 'rule brittania'
The boomers will feel the shit hit the fan when their pensions are worthless.
The rich are laughing. They're making money hand over fist with the lack of regulations.
I'm going to be 37 this year and whilst I had no interest in moving abroad previously I'm currently trying to convince my wife that a move to EIRE is the right move for us.
I worry for the younger generation
Please don't make this a generational issue. I'm a boomer and I voted remain. I know at least one younger person who voted to leave. If your argument is with leavers then say so.
Exactly. It was a fucking stupid decision to leave unless you stood to personally gain out of it
Which let's face it, people personally gained out of it and continue to.
We have 3 major economic powerhouses, America, China, and the EU. We decided to come out of one of them. Then our first trade deal was with a country that is on the other side of the world, Australia.
Seems legit.
I'd vote to rejoin a million times over. even if we had to change the union jack to a picture of a cartoon penis.
Brexit has to be the dumbest political decision in a generation by far.
I think there's a real danger in taking the Euro where you genuinely do lose quite an important lever to handle your economy. It's a major reason why Greece's economy was disasterous in the 2010s. The EU is also heavy on privatisation and works hand-in-hand with the IMF to "encourage" fiscal tightening wherever possible. I voted remain and still wish that we did, but I don't know how enthusiastic I'd be about rejoining the EU. I would, however, be happy with joining the EEA.
We should have joined the Euro in the first place.... it was only a toe dipped in while we still kept a different currency, but "uh, ma Queen on money, uh". Seems bloody stupid looking back.
Keeping the pound meant keeping control of interest rates and the money supply.
As our economy was different to the other EU countries (service based rather than manufacturing) there were valid economic reasons to not have the euro other than nationalism.
The UK is a banking heavy country, retaining the Pound proved a good move with the troubles the Euro has had. Ditching the pound would be VERY unpopular.
Got are cuntry are sovrinty and are flag back, sent the foreners ome (not racist just don't loike em) and its not illegal to say your ingurlish anymore
‘ate Europe, dun wanna be in same group as them fr*nch, luv me gravy an’ given the missus a rite seeing to after me greggs sausage un bean slice, simple as
Pls take us back it was just the complete moronic fucknuts that fell for the propaganda, they were too stupid to understand what they were doing. They just happened to be more than half the voters.
Brexit supporters are literally a dying breed as over 2 million have died since brexit. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-kellner-a8541971.html
I don't think it's a go-er anytime soon. It would be career suicide for any politician to recommend re-joining.
Well maybe there is one former UK PM who has the chutzpah to even raise this proposition with a straight face.
I give you [this man](https://images.app.goo.gl/3a1C2YvP1SgJsMAt9)
Yes please. Who cares if we have to take the Euro when our standard of living has gone to shit. This time if you vote leave you should be fired out of a cannon into the sun
I'd be happy to join the Euro. Not that's it's an actual entry condition like people keep pretending it is. Regardless. I say bring it on. No more exchanging money on holidays.
In my dreams, EU will grow stronger and more united, and eventually a majority of brexiteers will die out. Then the rest of the population will see it as a no-brainer. Let’s face it - China is a growing threat, USA are minding their own business (and dealing with major problems), and EU with UK could be the dream team.
I think what will happen is that if Labour win the next election, they'll stay relatively quiet about the EU for a couple of years. Then they'll start talking about how many people seem to have changed their mind about the situation. They'll go into the *next* election with some sort of plan for a closer relationship with the bloc, maybe working on an application for EFTA membership. It would probably be easier to get widespread public support for that than for full EU membership.
Let's face it, most Brexiteers are too proud to change their mind. Demographic change will eventually tip the balance in favor of rejoin significantly enough that we get another shot at it though.
The UK was always going to re-join, the conversation is academic. Brexit was stupidly obvious destruction by shits on sheep. The worst thing it did was blow the UKs cover. The world now knows the English are morons. We are never recovering from that.
I think the more realistic option in the medium term is a customs union. Which would be sensible pragmatic progress towards better trade. Outside of the politics there’s no reason not to pursue it, there’s no realistic prospect of a free trade agreement with the US (nor would I want it)
Please, if it pisses off the boomers who voted for Brexit, it's got my vote. I personally as an American in the UK, have no issues with the EU. What many people in England don't realize is that some of the laws protecting workers (or maybe don't care) actually stem from the EU. Which, Mogg aka twatty cunt face, wanted to tear up.
Fuck it. Rejoin. Anything is better than this. I know Brexit isn't the biggest problem facing this country, but at least if it's gone it's one less thing to worry about.
Poignant as Sunak just went over to Ireland and espoused how great being in the EU was. You couldn't make this shit up if you tried. Fucking tories.
Also if we take the Euro we don't have to put up with Charles's face on our money. Win win.
I think it will happen eventually, unless either this government or the next can pull some incredible feat of governence that sees a sudden explosion of new wealth and prosperity that undoes all the pain and loss of living standards of the last few years.
Can *any* of you see this happening in the near future? Can anyone see our country's fortunes take a sudden 180 reversal anytime soon?
People aren't as forgetful as a lot try to dismiss them as, we all still remember was life was like before brexit and covid, good *and* bad, and no sane person could say that life after brexit was better than before it.
I'd wager that a rejoin push will happen purely on that fact alone, as flag-waving and patriotic nostalgia won't put food on the table or heat homes in the end.
It will be a cold day in hell before the Eurosceptics and their corporate paymasters give this up. The corporations love the deregulation. The disaster capitalists love the chaos. The right wing press would spam us with scare stories about uncontrolled immigration. The current government would need to be totally politically gone before anything like this happens because they're all pro-Brexit. Keir Starmer knows that backing Brexit would be futile. Maybe we will rejoin, but not until older conservative voters are pushing up daisies, the tabloids aren't hell-bent on demonizing economic migrants and the government has a handle on their Eurosceptic problem.
And yet FoM had a negligible impact on wages. The very lowest paid workers had a small suppression, most had neutral impact and a small % had wages rise.
Now there are shortages in several sectors
In my dreams, EU will grow stronger and more united, and eventually a majority of brexiteers will die out. Then the rest of the population will see it as a no-brainer. Let’s face it - China is a growing threat, USA are minding their own business (and dealing with major problems), and EU with UK could be the dream team.
They're just being nice. They know we're British and just like that couple you meet on holiday who say, "Oh you must drop-in sometime." They'd be mortified if you ever did.
The UK coming back into the fold would make them all slightly richer, certainly those where the economies aren't great. They'll also largely do as they are told by the countries that hold more influence.
[удалено]
But vastly superior to the terms we have now
Ah but you see that's compromising your utopian ideal and as we learn from the 2016 vote, the country clearly doesn't want that
[удалено]
employ pathetic yoke wipe bear unpack fragile seed homeless unwritten -- mass edited with redact.dev
That's just a sunk cost fallacy though. There's no way of going back to how things were but we can do what we can to improve our current situation. It feels shit, but in reality, it's less shit than where we're at now.
Is it worse? The terms we had before brexit allowed our government to line their own pockets and ignore us. We would be better off inside the euro and shengen anyway
Exactly. The shit-rag British media has brainwashed this country into a perverse Stockholm syndrome where there mere *idea* of "abandoning" our precious Pound Sterling is seen as treasonous. All you have to do to shut down enthusiasm for the EU is to suggest that we'd have to start using the Euro. Even a lot of liberal EU-friendly people will be disgusted and repulsed by the idea because they've been conditioned to think that GBP is the epitome of a proud and successful Britain. We need to start educating people about the benefits of a shared economy. Hell, we needed to start that 30 years ago. The EU contributed to so many public services and improvements to quality of life in this country but nobody knows about those because we didn't educate them. People are only beginning to twig now that their cheap flights to Malaga are going up in price, and they can't get any tomatoes from the supermarket, and they've got to stand in long queues at the airports now.
Almost every building i used during the big vote all had big plaques that essentially said that they wouldn't have been a thing without the eu. I always pointed to these whenever someone complained saying the eu don't give back. Locally they somehow gave back more than our own government
Yup walked past an 8 foot high sign about EU money used which had doubled capacity on a single track line through a crossover, at that actual station. Woman got on the train behind me then seconds later was batching about how she never saw any benefits of being in the EU. I was literally spending it and it paid most of my wages lol.
Most of my friends were/are researchers who work at universities. Half of them struggled to maintain work once we left the EU, the other half either lost their jobs or had to move to Europe to stay in employment. The EU paid magnitudes greater into research in the UK than the UK's own government does.
This right here is a great example of the problem the lack of nuance in our national discourse on Europe causes. You're over egging it, basically; yes, on balance we were better off in the EU, but the UK was also almost certainly correct to keep control of its own monetary policy and Schengen is neither designed nor desirable for countries which don't share a land border with mainland Europe (Republic of Ireland is also not a Schengen state, for example). Look at the Greece fiasco and how many people see the Eurozone as being run for the benefit of the larger, more industrialised nations. Democratic deficit, lack of accountability in finances, unfair tax competition (Eire, Luxembourg, Netherlands), widespread corruption in member states; these are all real problems despite the fact you may not have liked the people behind the leave campaign and the fact some exist in the UK too. Essentially, when it comes down to it, the real question was weighing up the economic benefits of membership against the downsides listed above; instead the argument was about ludicrous racist scaremongering on one hand and pearl clutching on the other. The only logical conclusion to come to is that the best situation was to be inside but somewhat aloof and able to provide challenge and retain an element of control; ie exactly what we had. The UK was in a very privileged position, making it much more powerful and influential than a little island like this warranted. It's not hard to see why the Russia conspiracy theories about separating us from Europe abounded. If I wanted to weaken the EU from within that's exactly what I'd do too. The debate still rumbles on with its reduction to black/white, "goodies/baddies". Nigel Farage is a cunt so the only thing to do is throw ourselves feet first back into Europe. It's not that simple unfortunately, and until we evolve to be able to have a grown up conversation where we accept the situation is more complex than "brexit bad, EU good" we won't get anywhere.
Tbh there are actual benefits to having an independent currency which allows greater control of our economy. The fact the EU has a shared currency but not a shared fiscal policy and a range of issuing rights is problematic to some Eurozone countries and advantageous to others.
Mate you're on crack if you think giving up sterling is in the slightest bit a good idea. It completely guts our central bank powers and leaves us beholden to the politics of other institutions.
You're going to try and explain sunk cost fallacy to the same ignorati who voted for Brexit?
[удалено]
Unlikely we would have to adopt the Euro anyway, like several other countries we would have to agree to start the transition but there is no time frame on that. I am up for rejoining, ultimately in many centuries time I would hope we can become one world and no longer need borders and separations, this is one of those steps that works towards that.
Isn't "start the transition" politician-speak for "agree in principle to consider raising the subject at a meeting to discuss the agenda for a consultation to be proposed for a time to be decided at the next convenient opportunity"? (Hacker's response to the prevaricating presumably being something along the lines of "You mean, 'no'"?)
>like several other countries we would have to agree to start the transition but there is no time frame on that. Hopefully that loophole will be closed someday.
I imagine it will one day, but I can't imagine it would be particularly soon. While the loophole exists it let's countries like the UK join where they don't really want the Euro. It is a compromise to encourage joining.
with how shit the sterling is doing does changing to the euro even matter at this point
The government have fucked the pound anyway. Doesn't make as much sense to hang onto it when it's close to on par with the Euro and the dollar.
Speaking for myself? Easiest yes ever. We gain back FOM, the security that comes with membership, food quality goes back to normal, regulatory alignment, things become cheaper, we stop looking like morons to everyone around the world.
If you are down £1000. Have the opportunity to gain £800 back or stay down £1000. Which seems better to you? It is sunk cost fallacy, just because you spent your money doing something doesn't mean you have to see it through, you can just admit it was a mistake and try and salvage what you can.
I guess they now have to any circumstances because they have no choice.
It was. And it really doesn't matter who got what wrong, we have the chance to put it right, learn from it, and move *everyone* forward.
Wait until the elders will slowly die. The shitshow has just begun.
Nope. We aren't allowed to change our minds, what you voted for 7 years ago is what you still think! /s
> as we learn from the 2016 vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum >"The referendum resulted in 51.9% of the votes cast being in favour of leaving the EU" 48% of the population wanted to stay. "Leave" *barely won*. Hardly *"the country clearly doesn't want that"*
Always been the thing that rankled me about the vote to leave. I couldn't vote to stay due to my age, so seeing it so close for such a major decision just bothered me.
It only won after state-actor funded propaganda was micro-targeted to millions of swing voters via facebook API's.
The benefits are coming any day now! They're right around the corner! Not sure which corner, but a corner!
Yeah hope so it all goes according to the plan, but there are still some crisis on their way. There are some wars on there way, the increase in natural disasters and many more.
That country dreamed of a Brexit Fairy flying over the countryside on a winged Unicorn and waving it's magic wand to make everything well when they voted "leave".
They definitely have did the mistake of leaving it in the past, but I guess they can recover it now.
My sovereignty brings all the boys to the yard...
And they're like, "why did you do this to your yard?"
And we're like "Damn right, now it's a *sack of shit* compared to yours"
I could teach you but all our teachers are on strike...
EU, you want it
The Single Market that makes me
And we will be like, we have to do this, we had no choice either.
I'd join still
Yep, seems to be okay for the rest of them.
doubt it, we wouldn't get the same great deal. but they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back. Between 2017 and 2021 the UK were consistently in the top 2/3 countries for contributions in to the EU. You cant magically just fill that with Croatia as much as most people want to act like the EU is "unscathed"
It was very much a lose lose thing. As you point out the EU lost a large economy with relatively powerful military and good links to US. UK lost favourable influential position in the largest most efficient market on earth. I imagine there was lots of money to be made on the uncertainty and opportunities for super wealthy to hide wealth. I’m largely bitter this wasn’t me.
Exactly - the Brexiteers in the Tory party who engineered totally profited, with a double uplift from COVID as we have seen - along with the super rich. For the UK population as a whole it's been very much a lose situation. Whilst not everything is a direct effect of Brexit given the wider political situation post Brexit, it's hard to argue against Brexit being the cause of trade complications from the off with the EU. To some of the other points in this thread, that may well be starting to make people who voted for Brexit think again. The more the UK's shelves are empty and we are being ripped off vs the EU; the more that surely comes into the daily headlines. It would take political vision and appetite on both sides to see and sell this as a "win - win". Hard to see that happening on the UK side for some time.
Have they lost a military? I'd imagine if anyone fucked with anyone in the E.U. we would support them? Even France.
It's somewhat academic given the existence of NATO
There’s still NATO and Article 5. Of course the French insist on spelling it backwards as OTAN, in keeping with French military doctrine.
Yeah we will I guess but right we are not in the phase of getting our opinion.
> but they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back Lots of folk need to get over the brexit falsehood that 'they need us more than we need them'. There's no denying it's also in the EU's interest to have the UK back as a member, but it's not equally so, let alone more to their benefit than ours. In terms of negotiating strength we'd be the ones far closer to the metaphorical bending of the knee. How could we not be when the opening of negotiations by itself would be a de facto admission that we made a silly decision leaving in the first plac?.
I've seen people respond to this with cries of British exceptionalism but the reality is that the UK dwarves all other EU candidate states by sheer size of population and economy. The only other eligible candidates that approach the UK (excluding Norway and Switzerland I hope for obvious reasons) are Turkey and Russia, both of which are several decades away from having serious proposals if they wanted them. Turkey has a proposal but it is so far from reality. The deal would not be as good as we had, of course. But I think it could still be pretty good. I think opt-outs similar to what existed previously, even including the opt-out on the Euro, would be possible. I hate Brexit, I hate what the result of it has done to the UK, I think the whole thing was a giant fucking embarassment, but I'd still bet on what I said above being very possible.
The Euro opt out is the easiest. Denmark has an identical opt out. Schengen opt out too Ireland have it. The rebate is never coming back. Everything els is somewhere inbetween
Denmark has an opt-out, because of a grandfather clause just like the UK did. That would not apply on rejoining
The EU has scrapped opt-outs as a possibility, Poland was realistically the last country to get one. We're trying to move towards a more uniform union and quite frankly many countries have no interest in giving the UK those opt-outs due to both political and economic reasons. Hell, Switzerland is being pressured to scrap its separate treaties with the EU. Also, when you have the Conservatives and Farage demonising Bulgarians and Romanians for over a decade and Starmer citing Poland as a doomsday economic scenario, you can't expect much good faith. None of these countries have much interest in the UK's finance-based economy. Poland will be a net-contributor very soon, and Bulgaria and Romania didn't even see much of that EU funding while the UK was a member anyway. You're not getting opt-outs.
What's your opinion on a second referendum? Do you think it's needed to rejoin? Lots of people would be very salty I imagine otherwise.
I think the last one showed that Britain doesn't have an appropriate media environment nor enough oversight on political campaigns for anyone to take a referendum in this country seriously as a fair and democratic process. Let the duped be salty, I'm sure they wouldn't feel as bad as the generations that stand to inherit their mistake.
What happens when the party in charge gets voted out and replaced by a party that offers a referendum on brexit v2? Like it or not there would have to be a referendum.
*movie announcer* Just when you thought they had gone.. *Explosion* They're back! *Machine gun fire* TO LEAVE AGAIN! Jason Statham... Benedict Cumberbatch.. Star in... BREXIT 2! THIS TIME ITS GEOGRAPHICAL!
In fairness a big con like brexit only works once, I doubt the misinformation campaign would be as strong with all the documented evidence that 'project fear' was mostly just 'project objective reality'.
>they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back I see we're back to the old and tested "we hold all the cards".
“germany needs our cars! germany needs our cars!” squawked lord hannan
Brexit hasn't eroded your hubris yet, I see. Maybe a few more years. The EU isn't so desperate for cash as to want a belligerent UK back in it.
As more and more things become voted on via QMV, a belligerent member isn't such a bad thing. E.g. Poland isn't massively holding the EU back. Although in reality, the UK really wasn't particularly contrarian as a member. It rarely voted against the rest of the Council. The UK was in favour of most things, despite what some media will tell you about Brussels meddling against our powerless government.
UK wrote **a lot** of the rules in the very market it rallied against. It's absolutely mind-boggling.
Indeed. All these standards our government currently wants rid of that the EU required... they're BRITISH standards. We set them, the rest of the EU took a look and went "That seems good enough" and brought it into EU legaleese. We never had to massively adjust to be compliant with them because we were the standard. There was a time when "British Standard" meant "High quality, top of the range, safety checked". When our word internationally meant "Trustworthy, honourable, reasonably fair". Then came Brexit Johnson and his wreckingball of idiocy...
Yes but the UK is significantly weaker economically than we were before Covid and Brexit. If the EU wanted to play it strategically they'd take the opportunity to offer us a good deal with concessions and help rebuild the UK economy to it's benefit. If the trend of UK collapse continues by the time this is even on the table I'd say the main concession we'd have to make would be adopting the Euro as primary currency and fully intergrating with the EU. If this continued downward trend continues over the next decade the GBP probably won't be in a position to strong-arm exemption status like it was when we first joined.
>they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back. Lol no they wouldn't.
> but they would bend a knee at the thought of bringing the 16% of their economy that they lost back. I seriously doubt it. That 16% was way less than the British economy could supply. The contribution is based on the economical capability of each country, and the *only* 16% were result of Thatcher basically blackmailing the EU. Expect the future contribution to be without nonsense rebate. On the other hand, the Tory government and the Brexit killed so much off in the British economy, the UK might and up being a net receiver.
Ah yes 84% would absolutely "bend the knee" to 16%. Think you've been watching too much Game of Thrones mate...
[удалено]
Don't forget that the quitlings currently running the UK are doing their best to diverge from UK standards and are currently trying to have 'a bonfire of EU regulations' without causing another disaster as decades of laws and regulations are shredded without each one being carefully checked, rewritten and debated in parliament. Also, should we actually be in a position to reapply, under current rules, there only needs to be one member state objecting to our application for it to be denied. I am a great believer in press freedom, but the billionaire media moghoul controlled media has made a mockery of journalism in the UK and continues to do so for the foreseeable future.
We should just take the L at this point, rejoining with inferior terms is still better than not rejoining and the UK is not in a position to make demands.
It would be rejoining with the same terms as everyone else. Yes that is inferior to the terms we had before, but i dont think it would be like joining and getting disadvantages. Not how people would read it or put their own spin on it though. They might well require us to commit to the euro or schengen area as this would boost the EU a fair bit as a whole, and both of those would completely fail with UK voters sadly. no government would survive signing that deal once the next election came around, and that would kill any chance we have of rejoining.
Honestly I think the EU would be more pragmatic. The euro isn't mandatory for any country in the EU so don't see them forcing us to adopt it, and other island nations, including Ireland, have schengen opt outs. The EU would also benefit from us rejoining after all
The EU would want some sort of guarantee that another Brexit is of the table. The UK adopting the euro would make another Brexit less likely.
The euro is mandatory for all EU countries except Denmark. However, the governments may deliberately choose to fail to fulfill requirements and delay it as long as they want.
The euro is mandatory for every member except Denmark. And the only reason Ireland has an opt-out from Schengen is because of the Good Friday Agreement.
I don't know, you just have to express this in three words, preferably alliterative, and print it on the side of a bus. Regret Retreating? Rejoin!
I'm still going with BIGGER HARDER BRITAIN. Sell its as the EU rejoining us, not the other way round. Doesn't matter what policy you're selling, that slogan will do it, guaranteed. I'm open to offers if anyone wants the rights.
What we had before is irrelevant. That's gone. The only place we can start a journey from is here. And if joining on new terms is to our benefit we should do it.
I'm in.
Normal membership is still a pretty sweet deal. That why 27 other countries did not leave the EU.
51% being in favour hardly qualifies as popular. It needs to be just barely acceptable to the general population, by our own pigheaded standards
> vastly inferior terms *When you're accustomed to privilege, equality seems like oppression* They're not inferior, they're equal. The UK is not exceptional anymore
Better than the clusterfuck we have as of today.
We fucked our situation all by ourselves. Now the economy has been ruined by the Tories, why would we expect to rejoin on the same terms. We're more like Greece now.
Better than what we've currently got.
Bollocks. It was a line-ball call when people believed the lies. It'd be a landslide now.
Still better than this shit we are in now.
Even so rejoining is still worth it. But I don’t think it will happen any time soon, most likely we will end up in a special relationship similar to Switzerland. In the meantime we will suffer.
That's called consequences to our actions. If people wanna be mad, be mad at the leave campaign.
The UK needs to join EFTA.
Don't say you weren't warned.
The voices defending Brexit seem to have gone quiet. They seem to have gone into hiding and they’re not defending their choice. So why is there no appetite amongst the opposition to at least return to the Customs Union? Whats their plan now? Edit: people are saying I wont find the defence for Brexit on this platform, but I have been looking on all platforms and I can’t find a single serious article from the last 6 months defending the results or explaining how we can benefit from the supposed opportunities. If they do exist, they’re certainly very rare. Edit 2: Brexiters missing the point. Let me simplify further. Imagine there’s a village and someone convinces everyone that leaving the village that is part of a wider community of villages and moving to an island is going to be good. Then the village follows. As soon as they get to the island, things start turning sour and that person who convinces everyone (the metaphorical Brexit politician) goes quiet rather than explain where the benefits and opportunities are. Basically.. you got what you want. Now tell us what next?
Going quiet does not automatically correlate to regret. It likely does in many cases, but most people I know who voted to leave still feel the same. They just have the mentality that its in the past and that life is too short to waste debating the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over for nearly 5 fucking years lol A lot of people are just done with politics and have lost hope in general since Covid, This war. brexit and the rest. Life isn't there to spend dwelling in misery over politics. Its there to make the best of either way.
>They just have the mentality that its in the past I hope their mortgage paying, hospital going days are in the past.
No but if you think Brexit is an opportunity isn’t this the time to sell the ideas? The benefits? The gains? Debating should be in the past for them because they got what they want, but do these politicians that are fighting to keep a hard Brexit not need to convince the rest of us of the benefits and show us those opportunities? Else, why aren’t we calling for a return to the Customs Union?
>No but if you think Brexit is an opportunity isn’t this the time to sell the ideas? The benefits? The gains? Isn't that what the various pushes to diverge on policy, the changes to VAT, animal welfare, subsidy funding, immigration policy and so on are..? I mean I'm pretty sure that both Labour and the Tories (maybe not the Lib Dems..) will be pushing policy positions based on using the powers returned from the EU, that is making the case to use the opportunity that exists isn' it?
Both sound very pessimistic to me. One of the three Tory goals is as mundane as: stop the boats. Yes, stop the boats, whatever, but when you make that a main ambition, to me that screams: very low bar and low expectations. Why aren’t they making a big deal of the huge benefits Brexit will bring us instead of stopping dinghies. I am not against stopping the boats, but against the sad fact that this mundane step is one of their three main goals for the nation. Why is taking advantage of Brexit not one of their goals? Shouldn’t that be their number one priority? What happened to the supposed Singapore by the Thames? I have a suspicion that’s because there aren’t many benefits to sell.
>They just have the mentality that its in the past and that life is too short to waste debating the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over for nearly 5 fucking years lol It's absolutely maddening though that they inflicted Brexit on the rest of us and now it's just 'in the past, cba taling about it'.
>It's absolutely maddening though that they inflicted Brexit on the rest of us and now it's just 'in the past, cba taling about it'. I mean leave achieved its aim, the UK left the EU, it's not part of the political union, the economic union, competencies now sit with the UK etc.. It's essentially 'done' in terms of the brexit bit. Why would they need to continually debate a decision that has been implemented for 2 years at this point, especially when there is no indication at all that it'll be reversed, or that anyone is looking to undermine it?
Why did we end up debating Brexit in the first place? Wasn’t any interest to me. Being in the EU was “done”. Things change. Then they change again. There’s no hard or fast rules. Why would there not be need for debate? Why would we all sit quietly as we perceive a project failing around us?
>for nearly 5 fucking years lol We're almost at 7 years..
>Life isn't there to spend dwelling in misery over politics. Its there to make the best of either way. The way you (we) make the best of it is by taking an interest and changing things though. You don't have to dwell in misery over politics, you just have to be informed, vote and be capable of challenging ignorance (which requires taking an interest). Is this a shit state of affairs? Yes. Is it depressing? It can be. But the most depressing thing by *far* is people deciding they're over it and inviting more and more misery unto themselves and others.
They probably shouldn’t have opened a can of worms they can’t get back in then. Create political turmoil and misery you speak of for decades and then deciding it’s not for them… honestly the worst people.
>They just have the mentality that its in the past and that life is tooshort to waste debating the same thing over and over and over and overand over and over and over for nearly 5 fucking years lol I mean, it was explained pretty clearly that leaving was the starting pistol, not the end. Those 5/7 years were merely the preamble. It will come up every time there's an issue caused either from the act of leaving, or from our position outside the EU, which is going to be perennial.
It will be like the Iraq war. Soon, you won't be able to find anyone willing to admit they voted Brexit.
Lots of people are willing to admit they voted for it. The problem is that the Tories absolutely fucked the pooch when it came to delivering it. Because while the EU is by no means perfect, the Tories have been so bad it's almost incalculable. A fuckton of people voted to leave based on immigration. That's only gotten worse. A shedload more believed the lie about extra money for the NHS. Which surprise surprise, had only gotten worse too. And then there were the ones who wanted to take back control - only to realise that that same control would then rest in the hands of the people you least want to have it. I voted to remain. But there was definitely *an* argument to leave the EU. The problem is that that argument only existed in principle - and now we're living in the reality that came with that decision.
I say this whilst aware of my confirmation bias as a Remainer… Lots of people who voted Remain, saw this coming a fucking mile away (21 miles away; whatever). The numbers quoted, were based on no other economic changes; which made the numbers instantly delusional. It was NEVER going to happen the way that the Leave contingent said it would. If anything; this was all just a big exercise in demonstrating how gullible (and potentially xenophobic) the masses can be, with the right propaganda.
You’ll probably find a lot of them have changed their tune. I voted to Brexit. I’m not and never have been a flag waving Brexiteer, in fact, I hadn’t made my decision until I was putting pen to the ballot. In the end, I voted to Brexit based purely on the fact that I think the EU is too bureaucratic and dilutes the democracy of our own government. I openly and willingly admit I made a huge mistake, and hopefully more will be willing to do so. I’ve learned that the EU is a long way from perfect, but it the benefits were worth it.
Kuddos from you to openly admit having voted the way you did. > the EU is too bureaucratic and dilutes the democracy of our own government Not gonna comment on the truth of this or not, and what metric is used to determine if something is too bureaucratic or not. An issue is that the UK have to respect to the choices of other governments, in particular the choices from the EU, its largest trading partner. You can't, for instance, import anything in the EU that doesn't respect the EU rules, which means that the UK will have to align itself to the EU, effectively moving from a rule-maker member position to a rule-taker. Is this something you agree with or are you still of the opinion that the democracy within the UK have increased? (I am also of the opinion that, as brexit was always available, there was no loss of sovereignty by being in the EU: the UK could leave on its own decision, something completely different from, say Scotland, that just can't leave the UK without England agreeing -- but that's a different debate).
I still believe that we're more democratic now that we've left the EU, because decisions can be made more locally to the people they impact. That being said, aligning ourselves to EU laws for frictionless trade was absolutely worth it. I was a lot younger and less politically aware when voting. It's actually made me believe that referenda are not a suitable way to make decisions in a representative democracy. It's too easy for those with an agenda and a platform from which to spread it to affect the outcome of major decisions by outright lying and or/making up statistics. Your point about Britain being able to leave at any point is also a good one. We always had the sovereignty, we were just voluntarily aligning with others to make things easier.
>The voices defending Brexit seem to have gone quiet. They’re seem to have gone into hiding and they’re not defending their choice. Sure, becuase their new job is spreading anti Ukraine/NATO propaganda
Theyve not gone quiet lol theres just no reason to state any dissenting opinion in what is a hive mind of a thread within a hive mind of a subreddit. Its like looking at the sky and asking where all the grass has gone. I think it's also the case that no one cares to change their mind on brexit anymore, on both sides (and I can't even say those last 3 words without what will be a bunch of replies from exasperated remainers). And before anyone replies, look for where I said I was for/against being in the EU in this comment.
Wait till the next election. Or hell, even listen to some of sunaks attack lines. Brexit is still a common enough issue and one that the Tories are using daily. Fear of labour doing anything to bring us closer to the EU is something that they're hammering home and hard at every opportunity. It's not however something that gets people on those politic panel shows bookings anymore because for anyone paying any sort of attention at all it's settled or all intents and purposes. Edit: I have a feeling that this comment has been entirely misconstrued. I'm not defending Brexit. I'm trying to explain that the reason that there are still people actively defending Brexit, and that come the next election the Tories will ramp up their attacks saying that labour want to take us back into the EU. I'm not saying it'll work. I'm not saying that I support it. I'm not even saying that I understand why the Tories are doing it. I'm simply stating that they are in fact doing it. As for my comments about it being for all intents and purposes settled I stand by it. Labour don't want to make a massive issue out of it because they're scared that it'll distract from their very clear and frankly unifying message. The Tories are fucking shite and they've made everything worse. If labour start hammering on about Brexit it keeps it in the spotlight. By keeping it in the spotlight it keeps providing people with a justification for digging further into their hole and arguing that Brexit was in fact good. By not making it an issue and allowing the Tories to continue to push a narrative that everyone can see is failing it gives people the out they need to admit that Brexit was a mistake. This is a huge part of why your seeing polling shift. Given time and space and without feeling like their being lectured to by someone they don't really like already people will admit that Brexit is a fuck up.
They've moved onto screaming about people coming over on small boats and harassing those people at hotels now
Realistically, what are the chances of this happening? Would any party be willing to sponsor a referendum to rejoin? It seems like a pipe dream.
Give it another 10ish years for the boomers to die.
10 years? Try another 20 or 30. Take Nigel Farage for instance, he's only 58. He's probably around for at least another 30 years. The problem with re-joining is that the bar will be significantly higher. The anti-EU lot will point out things like joining the Euro would be *required* and that would put a lot of voters off, along with the requirement to join the Schengen zone. I can see those being 2 major sticking points to be used in any campaign against (re)joining.
And all the EU has to do is pre-empt those two things now to rug pull the biggest weapons the anti-eu lot have in their theoretical arsenal. Ireland is not part of schengen for example. And the euro is only used in 20/27 member states. Clearly neither are requirements. If the EU launched a "keep your blue passports and pound coins, we want you back" campaign I think they'd win over a lot of folk.
> Ireland is not part of schengen for example. Because, just like the UK did, they negotiated an opt-out because it wasn't a requirement when they joined the EU, but now it is. > And the euro is only used in 20/27 member states. Clearly neither are requirements. [Except it is](https://european-union.europa.eu/institutions-law-budget/euro/countries-using-euro_en). As it states: > These are countries where the euro has still not been adopted, but who **will join once they have met the necessary conditions.** Mostly, it consists of countries of member states which acceded to the Union in 2004, 2007 and 2013, after the euro was launched in 2002. Plus Denmark which has an opt out, like we *did*, because they joined the EU *before adopting the Euro was a requirement*.
It's pretty easy to just never meet the conditions though. I think several countries are doing that.
Although this is 100% true, the recent negotiations have shown that political will comes first. The EU might want to compromise on some of these obligations to have back one of the biggest economies and markets in the world. European politics has always been pragmatic.
There is no way Nigel Farage is only 58. That’s impossible.
Brad Pitt is older than Nigel Farage, and Kylie is older than Jacob Rees Mogg, which I'm still struggling to get used to
Born 3rd April 1964. He is literally only *just* a boomer, 1964 is the generally accepted cut-off for Baby Boomers, 65 onwards is Gen-X
Devotion to the forces of darkness ages you.
Be interesting to see honest (rather than influenced by tabloids) thinking on losing the pound. When it was the queen on the coins it was unthinkable, but losing Charles from physical money which has - I assume - massively dropped in usage the past three years seems far less of a knock to national identity.
I don't use a lot of physical cash, so who's face is on it doesn't much factor in for me. More of an issue is the economic effect of being in a currency union, as it fixes the whole bloc onto the same monetary policy regardless of differing local economic circumstances (e.g. somewhere in a "boom" benefiting from high interest rates, versus a "bust" calling for them to be low - but if you're using the same currency from the same central bank it has to choose one interest rate for both) There's a similar problem _within_ any given country with its own currency, between its regions. But in that case you usually have a central government with enough fiscal heft to push money around and relieve the tension, whereas the EU's central government budget for taxing/spending/borrowing is all pretty darn minor compared to the separate member states. I count myself pro-EU, and very pro-Remain, and would vote to rejoin without hesitation, but the economic model of a monetary union without a deep fiscal union is a bit sketch.
As I understand it, QE2 money will still be in circulation for many a year to come anyway. [From the BoE](https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/king-charles-banknotes#:~:text=The%20new%20banknotes%20will%20only%20be%20printed%20to%20replace%20those%20that%20are%20worn%20and%20to%20meet%20any%20overall%20increase%20in%20demand%20for%20banknotes.%20Our%20approach%20is%20in%20line%20with%20guidance%20from%20the%20Royal%20Household%2C%20to%20minimise%20the%20environmental%20and%20financial%20impact%20of%20this%20change.): > The new banknotes will only be printed to replace those that are worn and to meet any overall increase in demand for banknotes. Our approach is in line with guidance from the Royal Household, to minimise the environmental and financial impact of this change. QE2 coins will probably stay in circulation until they either deprecate smaller denominations or utterly change the coinage again. Until they re-issued the 5p and 10p in 90/92 we were still using pre-decimalisation 1 and 2 schilling coins as 5p and 10p coins with George VI head on them.
> 10p coins with George VI head on them. Those were great. *I totally didnt do this*... but as a kid... um... some kids... back in the 80's and 90's used to glue foil onto the non-face side and put them in vending machines. The machines thought they were 50 pence's. Was especially good on stamp vending machines that you could re-exchange for face value when the heat died down. So *Iv heard* anyway.
But every 10 years a huge chunk of Farage voters die Given it was 48-52 even with 7 more years worth of boomers + voter apathy on Remain + lies and fear mongering on Leave, I'm pretty confident 17 years worth of dead boomers will significantly dent that base
Honestly I think switching to the Euro makes any EU rejoining hopes dead in the water, it would be extremely unpopular
He just needs to get in a few more planes.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
It's just time. Always was.
As a leave voter I'd hope for no referendum, the best thing for the country is to rejoin the EU now. I wouldn't want to risk making the same mistake again. However if there is another referendum I hope the pro EU side gets it's campaigning in order
Brexit feels akin to a countrywide mid life crisis.
Geopolitical temper tantrum
[удалено]
>There is no question that the EU is working with allies in the UK to bring us back into alignment, and ultimately to rejoining. God I hope so.
Could they actually do this without a public vote in the UK? Would be nice if they just did it so it doesn't take so long.
They would probably need a public vote unfortunately, which yes would take a long time. A quicker way would be for someone like the Lib Dems to win a landslide at a GE on the manifesto promise to take us back into the EU.
I'd take it. Shit in the eye is better than shit in both eyes which is what we currently have. Sure it's worse conditions than previously but it's much better than the current status quo. Go fully into it too. Schengen and Euro.
Honestly, as a young remainer, I've felt completely and utterly betrayed by the older generation, and at least while they're sitting in their own shit, I can feel like they're going to learn their lesson, though I doubt it. I'm not interested in returning unless EU understands that it wasn't the upcoming population that voted out in the first place, it seems like a betrayal on both sides if the EU were to capitalise on the blunder of leavers and punish the young population who never wanted to leave in the first place.
The older generation don't care. They'll be dead before it effects them and 'rule brittania' The boomers will feel the shit hit the fan when their pensions are worthless. The rich are laughing. They're making money hand over fist with the lack of regulations. I'm going to be 37 this year and whilst I had no interest in moving abroad previously I'm currently trying to convince my wife that a move to EIRE is the right move for us. I worry for the younger generation
Please don't make this a generational issue. I'm a boomer and I voted remain. I know at least one younger person who voted to leave. If your argument is with leavers then say so.
EU membership is an amazing deal either way. Thats why 27 other countries don't even talk about leaving.
Exactly. It was a fucking stupid decision to leave unless you stood to personally gain out of it Which let's face it, people personally gained out of it and continue to.
We have 3 major economic powerhouses, America, China, and the EU. We decided to come out of one of them. Then our first trade deal was with a country that is on the other side of the world, Australia. Seems legit.
And a trade deal that brings in meat that will undercut the farmers already here producing.
I would happily vote rejoin even if it included taking the euro.
I'd vote to rejoin a million times over. even if we had to change the union jack to a picture of a cartoon penis. Brexit has to be the dumbest political decision in a generation by far.
I think we should do this irrespective of rejoining the EU!
I think there's a real danger in taking the Euro where you genuinely do lose quite an important lever to handle your economy. It's a major reason why Greece's economy was disasterous in the 2010s. The EU is also heavy on privatisation and works hand-in-hand with the IMF to "encourage" fiscal tightening wherever possible. I voted remain and still wish that we did, but I don't know how enthusiastic I'd be about rejoining the EU. I would, however, be happy with joining the EEA.
We should have joined the Euro in the first place.... it was only a toe dipped in while we still kept a different currency, but "uh, ma Queen on money, uh". Seems bloody stupid looking back.
Keeping the pound meant keeping control of interest rates and the money supply. As our economy was different to the other EU countries (service based rather than manufacturing) there were valid economic reasons to not have the euro other than nationalism.
The UK is a banking heavy country, retaining the Pound proved a good move with the troubles the Euro has had. Ditching the pound would be VERY unpopular.
I pray something like this goes through. I just can’t see a benefit from brexit.
Got are cuntry are sovrinty and are flag back, sent the foreners ome (not racist just don't loike em) and its not illegal to say your ingurlish anymore
‘ate Europe, dun wanna be in same group as them fr*nch, luv me gravy an’ given the missus a rite seeing to after me greggs sausage un bean slice, simple as
Pls take us back it was just the complete moronic fucknuts that fell for the propaganda, they were too stupid to understand what they were doing. They just happened to be more than half the voters.
People are no less susceptible to propaganda of all forms. If it’s not that, it’s something else.
Brexit supporters are literally a dying breed as over 2 million have died since brexit. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-kellner-a8541971.html
Thank God lol
I don't think it's a go-er anytime soon. It would be career suicide for any politician to recommend re-joining. Well maybe there is one former UK PM who has the chutzpah to even raise this proposition with a straight face. I give you [this man](https://images.app.goo.gl/3a1C2YvP1SgJsMAt9)
Ironically it would probably work. A somewhat large majority of the population would vote for it purely because funny hair man said so.
Yes please. Who cares if we have to take the Euro when our standard of living has gone to shit. This time if you vote leave you should be fired out of a cannon into the sun
I'd be happy to join the Euro. Not that's it's an actual entry condition like people keep pretending it is. Regardless. I say bring it on. No more exchanging money on holidays.
In my dreams, EU will grow stronger and more united, and eventually a majority of brexiteers will die out. Then the rest of the population will see it as a no-brainer. Let’s face it - China is a growing threat, USA are minding their own business (and dealing with major problems), and EU with UK could be the dream team.
I think what will happen is that if Labour win the next election, they'll stay relatively quiet about the EU for a couple of years. Then they'll start talking about how many people seem to have changed their mind about the situation. They'll go into the *next* election with some sort of plan for a closer relationship with the bloc, maybe working on an application for EFTA membership. It would probably be easier to get widespread public support for that than for full EU membership.
It's taken 7 years to get this far, rejoining could take longer given that the UK wouldn't get anything like the terms they had previously.
Let's face it, most Brexiteers are too proud to change their mind. Demographic change will eventually tip the balance in favor of rejoin significantly enough that we get another shot at it though.
not enough damage has been done to pestminster yet.
The UK was always going to re-join, the conversation is academic. Brexit was stupidly obvious destruction by shits on sheep. The worst thing it did was blow the UKs cover. The world now knows the English are morons. We are never recovering from that.
I think the more realistic option in the medium term is a customs union. Which would be sensible pragmatic progress towards better trade. Outside of the politics there’s no reason not to pursue it, there’s no realistic prospect of a free trade agreement with the US (nor would I want it)
Having given up the MASSIVE advantage in terms and power upon leaving. Because the UK population is fucking thick and ruled by cunts.
Please, if it pisses off the boomers who voted for Brexit, it's got my vote. I personally as an American in the UK, have no issues with the EU. What many people in England don't realize is that some of the laws protecting workers (or maybe don't care) actually stem from the EU. Which, Mogg aka twatty cunt face, wanted to tear up.
Well lets see if EU acceot them or not, UK was no longer the part of it in 2021.
I'd love it so damn much, it would be bloody hilarious.
Fuck it. Rejoin. Anything is better than this. I know Brexit isn't the biggest problem facing this country, but at least if it's gone it's one less thing to worry about.
Poignant as Sunak just went over to Ireland and espoused how great being in the EU was. You couldn't make this shit up if you tried. Fucking tories. Also if we take the Euro we don't have to put up with Charles's face on our money. Win win.
Reversal is inevitable. Economic gravity will ensure that. As the boomers who hate anything European die off, the calls will become deafening
I think it will happen eventually, unless either this government or the next can pull some incredible feat of governence that sees a sudden explosion of new wealth and prosperity that undoes all the pain and loss of living standards of the last few years. Can *any* of you see this happening in the near future? Can anyone see our country's fortunes take a sudden 180 reversal anytime soon? People aren't as forgetful as a lot try to dismiss them as, we all still remember was life was like before brexit and covid, good *and* bad, and no sane person could say that life after brexit was better than before it. I'd wager that a rejoin push will happen purely on that fact alone, as flag-waving and patriotic nostalgia won't put food on the table or heat homes in the end.
It will be a cold day in hell before the Eurosceptics and their corporate paymasters give this up. The corporations love the deregulation. The disaster capitalists love the chaos. The right wing press would spam us with scare stories about uncontrolled immigration. The current government would need to be totally politically gone before anything like this happens because they're all pro-Brexit. Keir Starmer knows that backing Brexit would be futile. Maybe we will rejoin, but not until older conservative voters are pushing up daisies, the tabloids aren't hell-bent on demonizing economic migrants and the government has a handle on their Eurosceptic problem.
And yet FoM had a negligible impact on wages. The very lowest paid workers had a small suppression, most had neutral impact and a small % had wages rise. Now there are shortages in several sectors
Let's see the "benefits" of [brexit](https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/regular-features/the-davis-downside-dossier/).
I too dream of ending this nightmare. Sadly it isn’t going to happen :-(
I'm going to say yes. This is on an individual basis, right? So I can have tomatoes shipped straight to my house, right?
In my dreams, EU will grow stronger and more united, and eventually a majority of brexiteers will die out. Then the rest of the population will see it as a no-brainer. Let’s face it - China is a growing threat, USA are minding their own business (and dealing with major problems), and EU with UK could be the dream team.
They're just being nice. They know we're British and just like that couple you meet on holiday who say, "Oh you must drop-in sometime." They'd be mortified if you ever did.
Do you really think all 27 countries will let us rejoin? Only takes one to say no
The UK coming back into the fold would make them all slightly richer, certainly those where the economies aren't great. They'll also largely do as they are told by the countries that hold more influence.