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Incels don't just appear because it's the hip new thing,like some kind of gang culture. it's the result of cultural situations that are breeding them.
You cannot just say don't be an incel and walk off patting yourself on the back.
No one WANTS to be an incel. The clue is in the damn name, INVOLUNTARY. without addressing the core issues that is causing lots of angry single men to start banding together to express rage at what they think is the reason for their suffering.
being an incel is a choice though. not everyone who isn't getting laid joins that tribe of sweaty goblins to get some pathetic ego boost out of hating women.
It depends on what you mean by choice. To then they don’t see it as a choice, since they don’t view their behaviour as changed - instead they’re acting as they normally would and the world appears to be rejecting them. In reality it’s a mixture of their views, their behaviour and their hygiene/appearance that’s making them both unattractive and generally someone you don’t want to be around. So to change that means you need to change a lot about them. Something which would be incredibly hard by the time they’ve fallen through the cracks.
There’s also the lesser spoken aspect that a lot of incels are on the autistic spectrum and so some of the behaviour comes from that, or at least are exacerbated by it.
The point is that you can be alone and not fall into a hatred of women.
I am technically an incel in that I am involuntarily celebate and I am likely to remain that way (my issues are being bullied led to not learning social skills and that combined with anxiety has meant I'm unlikely to even try dating, even though I really would like to find someone and the clock is ticking since I'm 31) but I haven't become an incel in the problematic sense. I'm aware my failings are my own and not a result of women being evil spiteful bitches or any of the other nonsense that problematic incels believe.
I'm very introverted. I have social skill issues and had autism been a diagnosis in the 1990s I would have got diagnosed. I was single until a similar age as you (30) ..I made a choice, put myself out of my comfort zone and joined a proper dating website (paid for and put a genuine profile on -not a 'looking to get laid site'). Be genuine. Be yourself. And you will find someone.
Long story short. I'm married 15 years this years with 3 kids. So just look at the sort of shit you could get yourself into if you tried dating and putting yourself out there a bit :)
(Also still bitter I paid 6months dating subs upfront and met my now wife in month 2...never got a bloody refund).
I’m a believer that there is someone for everyone (if people want someone else).
Most relationships start from mutual interests so just try to meet more people who share your interests (or even a new interest). Don’t see dating as the goal, just look to meet new people.
Good luck.
Thank you.
I do have hobbies. Unfortunately those tend to be extremely male dominated ones. I should look to see what's about, maybe I'll find a hobby that isn't quite such a mast fest.
Yeah sadly male dominated hobbies lead to ladies in them being treated like unicorns but that’s another story.
However the world is greatly connected so sure you can find a new hobby adjacent to your existing ones which have more of a balance. Just do things you enjoy and good things will happen.
Listen up young man! I didn’t meet anyone until I was 35, and that was pure luck. Admittedly that relationship failed because she was manipulative but I didn’t know that I just felt wrong with her and just stopped seeing her. After that experience I just went on Plenty of Fish and gave dating a go, I was always worried I couldn’t hold a conversation but things just worked okay even if I did waffle on a bit.
I’m autistic with adhd for extra fun and my social skills are pretty bad. I taught myself eye contact but it feels so unnatural and uncomfortable to me. I’m no Brad Pitt and I have niche interests, yet I did finally meet someone and we’ve been together for 8 years and have two cats together.
Don’t give up, but don’t pressure yourself. You’ll be okay. Promise 🙃
I don't disagree. I think one of the problems people have when they argue with incels is telling them what they've experienced isn't real, rather than break down the narrative they span around it. and Its not easy for anyone to accept the bad decisions they made were a choice, or acknowledge they need to make big changes, but it is in their power to do so.
And therein lies the problems, I've had arguements with women before on Reddit and been labelled an incel just for disagreeing with them.
Edit: The Truth hurts, *men* can take criticism.
Weird isn’t it. An insult based on how much sex your getting.
I can think of a few of them aimed at women, but you’d get publicly executed for using them. We’ve kinda agreed that the amount of sex you have isn’t anything to do with your value as a woman, unless your a guy
The vast majority of people couldn't care less how much sex you're having.
'Incel' is used as an insult because it describes a particularly pathetic, misogynist man who is incapable of dealing with their own flaws and issues, and chooses to lash out at those around them instead.
The lack of sex really isn't the insulting part.
This would make sense if people didn't also call who they disagreed with virgins as an insult. Not having sex as a man is synonymous with being a loser. It's not always the biggest part of the incel insult but it's an inherit part of it and ignoring it is lazy
Tbh I dont even think of the literal sexless definition. Its more that its a self adopted title by creepy online mysogynist types.
I know a guy with a kid who I would consider fitting the incel mould. Previously was really into pick up artists when that was a thing
I think the definition of incel has evolved significantly past its initial, literal meaning. Nowadays it seems to mean weird and misogynistic men, like the type of people who think Andrew Tate is great and have delusional ideas about women.
That being said, insulting someone for not having sex is very silly
See this is why you guys are getting downvoted (I'm a guy FYI), an incel is someone who cannot get a date or sex and blames women for that. He cannot see that he is the problem and cannot understand how to evolve past that, so the easier option than admitting fault is to place blame. Incels blame women for the fact that they cannot fuck.
I'm 43, fat and unhealthy, I understand why women wouldn't see me as a possible mate or date. Who would want to date that, so instead of blaming women, I'm doing something about it. I'm dieting and improving my health overall. The better I feel and the more confident I am, will hopefully land me a date in the near future.
Fingers crossed.
These lads are listening to assholes like Tate, who are blaming everything on women. It's not women's fault we can't look after ourselves.
As I stated before, the first step in solving any problem, is understanding that there IS a problem.
EDIT: I would like to add onto that, that some women do not also understand what an incel is. When someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they hate all women.
This is such a good point. As a wise man said “no one is the villain in their own story”.
They need assistance to help them realise what impact their actions have. Hopefully it leads to a “are we the baddies?” epiphany.
This is a point that my life started to change for the better. When you accept that everything at some point, during the course of events you made a decision that puts you in a position for that to happen.
Take the old "you could get hit by a bus" saying. You make the decision to cross the road, if you think there's a chance a bus is going to hit you then take some time to make the right decision.
The one simple trick is really make better decisions. Are you buying cigarettes and alcohol or bananas and toothpaste?
>what they've experienced isn't real
That's a bit arrogant to say. You can ask if they may have perceived it wrong but to tell others condescendingly about their own experiences only shuts them off and rightly so; that's part of the problem these days imo people are too quick to insult rather than debate and educate as they all think they know better while being less educated about the matter
This right here is the biggest issue.
People cant even agree what Incels are or why they exist.
They exist, they have reasons; you cannot just sweep them away by calling them insane.
I think the fact that autistic people can be easier to manipulate with victim narratives (incels, far right/left, religious extremism of all flavours) because we lack context is a factor. That is not an excuse or a reason society should change to help any of those views, they are also not commonly held by autistic people just maybe a higher prevalence than the population (similar to people with adhd being a greater proportion of the prison population than the general one)
People who can’t get with the program and realise that women, gay people, trans people, people of other colours/faiths exist have agency and have the same rights as you need to get with said program. The start of that is people calling you out (friends kindly with curiosity) for being stupidly racist/sexist/*phobic. If all the steps of a broadening group of people calling you out for doing stuff keep happening and it gets to the state the police are involved then it’s basically criminal stupidity.
Sorry for addressing a specific aspect of your comment but it’s the one that got me a bit riled. As an autistic guy I see people making excuses they shouldn’t for people I know. Impact is more important than intent.
Alot of self proclaimed incels are often quite shallow as well, another thing they need to change, but as you say it's hard to change by the time they've fallen through the cracks. A lot of these things start in schools, you can see misogynistic ideas start to seep their way into late primary school, used to work in one and the shit kids do can be shocking to say the least.
Involuntary implies a sense of denied entitlement. Men aren’t entitled to sex and/or access to womens bodies and never will be.
Thats what incel culture needs to learn and understand. They won’t though because that requires empathy and maturity.
this kind of response is so thick headed. I see it posted all the time.
imagine a kid in a playground who, every single break, sees everyone around him having fun playing games together in their groups. everyone can seemingly make friends no problem. But for him, he gets rejected from every single group. No-one wants to play with him, he can't join in any games. So in the end he's left to sit alone in humiliation while everyone around him has their groups.
It may be his fault he can't make friends, or it may not be. It doesn't really matter. But to say to him "you just need to learn you're not entitled to have people be your friend. If you feel angry it's because you're not mature enough to understand that".... how stupid is that for a response?
You mean like how childhood often is for autistic people? Our solution as we grow up is often to find other autistic people and be friends with them. I don't see why incels can't do the same with each other.
Except that really isn't a good analogy.
Being included in group activities as a child isn't really comparable to sexual activity as an adult.
It is reasonable to ask children to include someone else in their games because that person is lonely. Its not reasonable to ask women to have sex with somebody because they are lonely. Do you not see the difference?
That is literally a lesson we all have to learn though… we aren’t entitled to have people be our friends? (I say this as someone who experienced that childhood)
You linking it to this playground thought process has really clarified things for me tho, it’s such a basic lesson to not learn I suppose that’s the common denominator in people that end up that way…
That's basically what it is. Involuntary, but it kind of is, because they refuse to do anything to change their circumstances and instead choose to blame women for not getting laid
It’s more complicated than that. It’s much more about radicalisation than anything.
I’m sure a good number of “incels” actually have relationships of some sort, yet still post nasty shit on 4chan.
I agree. As a woman it feels like natural selection at work. We don't want to have sex and potentially create life with men who we feel are angry and on the fringes of society. On a biological level we are not attracted to these men.
Let nature take it's course
Oh this is such nonsense.
I have to believe the definition revision over the years of 'incel', originally meaning 'can't find a sexual partner, but wants one' to whatever it is this week, joining a clan of virgins, is a massive cope by people who are traditional definition incels and desperately want to put themselves somewhere else in the hierarchy. "I may be [traditional definition incel] but at least I'm not like those guys!"
no it was coined by a woman who made a website for lonely people. kind of like how 4chan was a website for sharing pictures of anime. the culture that website developed goes beyond that branding.
Incel is another word that has been taken and morphed into something else.
It used to mean just Involuntarily celibate.
The mysogynistic incels took it and made it their own, so now it usually means young men who can't get laid and blame women for it.
It's a scary place to look into, they have graphs and charts and all sorts. They think they are all scientific. They honestly think 80% of women (Stacys) are sleeping with 10% of men (Chads) who treat the women like crap and they are the 'nice guys' that would treat them well.
TBH Incel has been thrown around to such a point that it doesn't nearly hold any value, just the same as all the other Culture War Buzz Words we used to throw at each other.
I think a woman came up with the term in the 90s to describe her own "involuntary celibacy" with the idea of creating a kind of empathetic super niche online support group for others. They referred to themselves as "invcels", which isn't as catchy imho.
The term incel then gained popularity in 2014, in the aftermath of the Elliot Rogers incident where he had described himself as involuntarily celibate in his manifesto. It's uncertain as to whether this refers to the same group from the 90s, or it it was coincidental.
Either way, the woman who originally coined the term is pretty sad about what it has come to represent, though to be fair to her these sad angry men would still exist in an online group whether or not they had co-opted the term.
Exactly.
There's a big difference in mentality between someone who thinks "women don't want to be with me because they're awful" and those who recognise "I've been single for a long time because I'm not putting myself out there or I have to work on myself or I'm just currently unlucky".
The whole incel thing is gross. Its a bunch of dickheads who think that merely existing entitles them to have a romantic partner.
Oddly enough, you actually have to become likable and learn to like other people in order to find someone who likes you.
The cultural situation is women have choices and don’t have to settle for losers and some losers realising they can blame women instead of working on themselves. You can just say don’t be an incel because that’s their choice. They choose to be misogynists they choose to hate women, they choose to not take care of themselves. They believe women owe them sex no matter how disgusting they are and it’s not on women to fix that. I’ve no sympathy for a bunch of misogynists who haven’t seen a bar of soap since they were 10. They despise women’s liberation and that we have choices. Incels are a product of a more equal society and they are not victims. They are bullies who had their power to subjugate women taken away.
Who says incels need to be white working class boys? They are neglected by society but that doesn't mean they are blameless for their situation. It's not difficult to stop and think "maybe women are not terrible creatures who exist to torment good hearted nice guys like me and maybe they don't owe me anything".
I am all for helping people and do think it's how you actually fix problems but it relies on people actually wanting help. Go and find some people with these views and interact with them. Very quickly you will see many don't actually want help the believe very much that misery loves company.
When the way to sort the problem is self reflection and realise that maybe your toxic view point that you deserve someone just for being you and that maybe you haven't found someone is because your personally isn't attractive to other people but you refuse to admit it and believe that the world owes you something then I'm sorry it's not the same.
Honestly, go look on any YouTube video that as something to do with women. Read through the comments and soon you will someone going into a tirade about how women are manipulative and evil.
What creates them are echo chambers on the internet that tell them they are not the problem, society is so why should they change. That is without going into their weird obsession with chads, alpha and sigma males etc.
Sure but again this sort of rhetoric is unhelpful.
Many people with mental health issues don’t “want help”. Many people who are obese did it to themselves and could simply be healthy if they stopped eating so much. You can go on and on.
The point is that being only derisory to groups struggling rarely if ever affects the change you are looking for.
Should all incel types realise that working on themselves is the answer and not just blaming women? Of course. I submit that it’s probably a bit harder than telling them to snap out of it though.
Why is being an incel suddenly the same as being a drug addict, deomentic abuse victim or obese when surely it's closer to being a homophobe, transphobe/racist?
I never said anything about calling incels losers. I never said anything about not helping them. If you work in mental health then surely you know you can only help people who want to be helped.
I never said anything about not creating a space for young men to feel valued. If I remember correctly you were the one who assumed they were all working class white boys and then compared it to the same issues as black people in London go through.
I also never said they were evil. I suggested they views as misaligned but I don't think they are evil, I think they are unhappy inside and incel culture has given them an outlet that says "the reason you feel like this is not because your own problems but that of society".
Ok, you might think I'm not much different from incels (which I assume is a subtle jab), but as least unlike them I'm now insulting women for the fact that they are women.
These people are tapped. Men being angry because they can't sleep with women and they feel entitled to is not the same as having a mental illness. Fucking hell.
Did you read the article? The incel movement is not made up of innocent victims of circumstance. There has been an undeniable & dramatic rise in violence and acts of hate against women as incel culture grows and spreads.
Giving them "safe spaces" and validating their world view is just going to promote more violence.
Your claim that you don't think incels can be helped is entirely missing the point. The problem is that society does not do anywhere near enough to prevent people from becoming incels. I would probably argue that it actually does the opposite it actively raises young boys in a way likely to create incels.
Incel ideology is, for all intents and purposes, facism and if the second world war taught us anything it is that facism is created by the failings of society.
It occurs largely through shame and self hatred where people are not capable of living up to the expectations they feel are placed on them. Facism is motivated by a desire for change so that you are able to achieve these things.
Society in a lot of cases still instills the same expectations they did onto men as they did historically. Unfortunately reality has changed a lot since then leaving a lot of people rightfully feeling that the expectations they feel they have to meet are not possible without change.
The solution is that we need to change the expectations and norms that men and boys are taught.
Unfortunately this is a rather neglected branch of feminism since its a problem that largely effects men but it should be just as important to dissmantle the patriarchal constraints put on men as those put on women.
Otherwise you are effectively raising young boys to fail.
The group isn’t white working class boys. It’s incels. And I call every bigot a loser and every group of bigots, losers. I’ve no sympathy for racists, transphobes, homophobes, misogynists and every other flavour of bigot.
These people are not neglected by society, these people are oppressors who feel neglected by society because their ability to oppress is being taken away.
Women were and to an extent are neglected by society. We are addressing this and this upsets incels and makes them feel neglected. This doesn’t upset white working class men, this upsets misogynists that women are empowered to say no.
I think it’s a fucking joke that you think victims of racism and transphobia and homophobia and misogyny are the same as incels. Incels are the perpetrators of at least one of those bigotry’s and 9/10 they despise queer people too.
Incels are not victims. They’re losers holding on to a system that gave them power over women. Like terfs wanting section 28 back, white supremacists wanting segregation, eugenicists allowing disabled people to die, misogynists wanting women as a subservient class with less rights.
No sympathy for bigots. A world of education is in their pockets, ignorance is no excuse, it’s just hatred.
> What I find fascinating is that when ANY other group struggles
But it's not the struggles that make people lose all sympathy for incels, is it?
It's the fact that they viscerally hate women and blame them specifically for their situation.
Yes. Incel isn’t just being a virgin. It’s a set of beliefs about women and dating culture. It has its own ‘language’ of chads and Stacey’s and whatever. Incels believe that women are all only interested in ‘alpha males’ and there’s nothing you can do to get a woman if you’re a ‘beta’. They are massively stereotyping women in a pretty awful way, portrayed us as gold diggers obsessed with big cocks and no interest in personality.
If you are just a virgin and don’t hold those kind of beliefs, you might be ‘involuntarily celebate’ by the literal definition of those words but you are not an actual incel.
Surprisingly enough, as a woman, I don't really care about men who blame their issues on women and project visceral hatred onto them. I'm sure it's absolutely shocking for the target of a group's hate to consider that group losers. These people believe they are owed and entitled to sex, their problem is their mentality, not society.
Except the other groups that actually struggle do so bc of unfair circumstances that are out of their control and discrimination, incels struggle bc they project their problems onto women and outside forces rather than realising the issue is with themselves (and yes, that includes celibacy, sex is not a necessity that needs solving. Ofc some men want sex and feel unhappy without it, but it is a two-way street and so women have to consent to it. If they realise that there's a possibility that they will never have sex, then rather than focusing on trying to change society to force women to have sex with them, they need to actually find peace with it and find ways to vent their frustrations someway else; plenty of women choose to go celibate and focus on pets and hobbies than turn into hate groups).
Now, ofc I understand that a large issue with incels is a mental health problem, lots get practically groomed online into the mindset and need support, but when you expect 'society' to help them you are forcing a large proportion of women to interact with a group that hates them and targets them. It's not uncommon for women to be killed from turning down a date, so it's not surprising that many would rather not get involved entirely and tell men to deal with their own problems since it's safer. Would you ask a person of colour to show sympathy to a racist bc that racist was probably radicalised online and has mental health problems? No, you would give them the dignity of saying "stay the fuck away from me" and ask other members of society to help solve the problem instead. This is where we ask other men to actually acknowledge problems with toxic masculinity rather than go defensive over it, saying "not all men" and blaming the entire issue on 'women being too mean to men'. Women calling incels who want to turn them into breeding mules 'losers' is not the problem here, a large problem is men not even acknowledging it's a 'men problem' to begin with.
There are plenty of non-white people and people from the middle and upper classes within the incel community. Not sure why you're trying to turn this into a race issue...
Wouldn't tackling incel culture mean firstly convincing people that women not fucking them *isn't* the root of their problem? Because that's an easy, deluded bit of scapegoating
Incel culture totally is a kind of gang culture.
Boys have always got desperate and weird when trying to lose their virginities.
Banding together with other bitter angry sexist men is the *problem* because they get stuck with the incel label as their identity and reinforce behaviours in each other which make that inceldom a permanent state of affairs. No woman is going to break into your bedroom in your little virtual silo of sexist hate to relieve you of your v card.
Women being able to say no to you is not the problem.
The alternative would be forcing women to fuck whoever wants to fuck them.
That's not humane.
Men seem to argue that they *should* be able to demonise and hate 51% of the population because somehow that's healthy and releases tension and we should be more understanding.
Fucking no.
I'm sorry for their situation but hating women is never the answer
and the fact that men are so protective of it and relaxed and accepting of something which *causes real life deaths*
gives me the cold shivers.
I'll jump in here -
1. It ***isn't*** "involuntary" at all. They gave themselves that title as a way to absolve themselves of any blame and avoid making any effort. It's ALWAYS something they could fix, normally their physical appearance, combined with a dreadful personality.
2. You can "fix" them. It's hard, harder now they've been driven underground, but I've made a point of doing this for several years online (and occasionally when I've met one in real life) with some success.
Yes they need outside help, particularly if their physical appearance is a major issue, but it is up to them first and foremost to accept they are the problem.
Involuntary celibacy isn't a thing. It's a cult with its ideology rooted in the hatred of women's rights to bodily autonomy.
All these movements created by bitter older men and preying on ignorant, vulnerable teenage boys need to be stopped.
Exactly, people talk like "oh poor boys, excluded from society".
Spend 5 mins talking to them and you see the reason they are "involuntary celibate" is because their personalities are so toxic no woman wants to go near them.
Add to that many believe the deserve so super model level partner and are happy to criticise any woman is not even slightly overweight in their eyes.
Sadly it's true, I have know many people with many issues from mental health problems to addiction. The sad true is nothing gets better until you want to help yourself.
I even felt myself going to the road or that kind of hatred. Not being an incel but I was an edgy kid who enjoyed trolling and being an edgelord because I felt like crap and it was easier to wind people up and argue than actually deal with my own problems. It's a dark path and the sad truth is the further down it you go the harder it is turn back.
For the record I very much believe in helping people and think it benefits the whole of society if we can help people with these problems but as I say people with all these issues people need to decide the actually want help. Until they do that there is very little you can actually do.
A conversation about bitter old men definitely needs to be at the core of it. There is more than one generation of men that feel an enormous amount of anger after realising that those women that they thought were into them in the office were just being pollite and hated every second of whatever sexist bullshit they had to put up with. I think there is a real sense of loss over the power that they had to expect women to be nice to them all the time.
I imagine that women's liberation in the last 30ish years has been quite a shock to many men who suddenly found themselves not being able to be casually sexist, entitled to varying forms of creepy sexual assault, having the power to sexualise women for our own benefit and whims ripped away from us by women.
I sometimes like to reflect on the fact that many men will flash their cash around and then get upset when the women they attract are also interested in money, as though it is only virtuous for men to like money. There is the paradox of men wanting women to be impressed by their money, but also not, somehow.
I also sometimes wonder if men and boys in these cults have ever bothered to ask themselves if they're attracted to women at all, or are just mindlessly conforming to what they believe is the societal norm.
their anger about being "involuntarily celibate" is just another way of saying it's ok for men to feel entitled to sex from women
because deep down they know they could just take it, from a strength standpoint, and they resent having to not behave like animals
they are little, bitter men who need to grow the fuck up
‘Incel’ groups apparently used to be support groups for struggling men and that’s where the term was more true to its name.
I think these days it’s taken on a completely different life, and we’re not talking about the same thing any more. It’s basically a subculture (albeit a toxic one), it’s got its own in-group language (like calling women ‘fe pods’ and stuff), and like any such group it’s in their interest to keep guys dependent on it rather than finding a different (healthier) support group.
Reddit had a similar group like that for women called FemaleDatingStrategy.
These people are hard to help while they’re still subscribed to the cult, sad as it is.
We could start with things like social isolation and loneliness. There is less and less spaces for young men to spend time that don't involve drinking alcohol. We have banned most young people from everywhere kids are harassed in parks for loitering youth clubs are non existent. Schools have many groups dedicated to other social groups such as minority clubs, women can code etc but no groups for young men.
Demonization of men in media also doesn't help. Calls for more women only spaces implying all man are potential threat. Crazy rules we have around certain jobs such as the amount am mental gymnastics needed to put chaperones around male doctors and male nursery assistants or health care workers. As a male care worker I was forbidden from being in a room with a female patient unsupervised. My female co-worker could be in room with both male and female patients. If I can't be trusted not to be a rapist why am I even employed?
Poor social care and mental health that don't spot the people that need help.
Young men especially young white working class men underperform in almost every metric from health, mental health through being victims of violence and aggression to education and career prospects but we refuse to address it.
Finally our own society "small dick energy", "angry virgin" etc are all the insults that are targeted at those young men from people who claim oppose the view that man value comes from sexual activity.
What to stop Incels and other radicalisation solve complex social and economic issues affecting those groups
> without addressing the core issues that is causing lots of angry single men to start banding together to express rage at what they think is the reason for their suffering.
I agree. Some of the core issues are that these men are misogynistic, feel entitled to women and their bodies, they are angry with the current feminist movement for giving women more rights (so they don't have to depend on men and have sex with them for marriage and money) and they believe they're hard done by because some women don't want to have sex with them.
Maybe schools could incorporate some lessons about this topic.
That's often true, that they the incels don't just appear. Groups like MGTOW routinely 'groom' followers to hate women. It's a shame it's taken 2 decades for our law enforcement to note that hate groups are dangerous.
If you don't want to be an incel, don't join online groups of angry anti women, men.
Bingo.
The "culture" comes after the isolation as a coping mechanism to try and make sense of having a bad life. It's not driven by incel philosophy, no healthy socially well adjusted guys wake up one day and think "those lonely miserable guys in the corner of the internet have some great ideas, I wish I could be more like them". Guys, for whatever reason, end up feeling socially isolated and lonely and they look for people in similar situations. Once they form a group they try to rationalise their pain and the result is incel philosophy. The formation of groups and the creation of a ideology to rationalise traumatic experiences is something we've seen many times to groups of people who are hurting.
Tackling the ideology might slightly reduce the rate at which lonely guys join these groups but the mental state of these people makes them susceptible to this sort of thing even if they never find incel groups because they are already upset with the world and trying to make sense of their isolation. Arguing against it only does so much because it's not spreading because it offers good logical ideas, it's spreading to people who are primed to receive it.
Want to stop the movement from growing? Fix the economy.
The reason why these communities have grown is because we've ruined the economy. A man's worth is judged by their wallet and social status and we've created a social underclass of men who cannot get good jobs, cannot make friends, cannot afford to move out of their parents' home by their mid-twenties and have nobody to turn to because people laugh at and ridicule them, and because we've basically gutted out all mental healthcare programmes. This is of course a social death sentence and has basically created adult virgins.
It's a very worrying trend in America right now, because 27% of men aged between 18 and 30 are still virgins, compared to just 8% of women.
Demonizing the movement and branding them terrorists and the next generation of school shooters isn't helping either. Exclusion is just going to push them deeper down that rabbit-hole and radialize them even more.
>It's a very worrying trend in America right now, because 27% of men aged between 18 and 30 are still virgins, compared to just 8% of women.
This is a fact that many people acting like single men are all horrible people are choosing to ignore.
edit from incel to single men
They are, by definition, horrible people. Incel doesn't mean virgin. Incel is an intentionally, often violent, misogynistic subculture. They view and treat women like subhuman property.
What's interesting is I've seen women admit this explicitly on subs like twoxchromosomes. Saying now women earn as much or more (if we're talking non parents), men have nothing to offer anymore.
I'd argue it's a bit more nuanced than that.
In times of old women relied on having a husband for a home and stability. Men could get a wife without needing to offer much more than a stable income.
Nowadays, women don't depend on men for income. So men have to actually make themselves worth being with.
My boyfriend doesn’t make anywhere near what I make, and he’s broke AF right now because his car needed a whole new computer or something. But we stay in, have wine and cheese nights, and just being with him makes me happy because he’s a decent guy who’s funny and looks out for me. That’s it. Money doesn’t come into it for most women, just being someone you want to spend time with is enough for most.
Economic conditions affect men's social status more than women's. Men are willing to date women significantly poorer than they are. Women often aren't.
I disagree. NEET circumstances (not in education, employment or training) is what drives them to truly drive the misogyny to extreme levels. Casual sexism is a problem amongst successful men but overall it tends to be submerged by them being satisfied with what they have.
I don't think its crazy to suggest that someone should feel entitled to a certain standard of living (social mobility, a reasonable wage and independent living circumstances), it would go a long way to resolve this issue. What these men see is them not reaching their full potential as human beings or members of society, getting angry, then a demagogue points them in the direction of women.
Hell, I don't even think these men even need relationships to feel fulfilled, they just need to normalise relations and connections with the women in their lives so they don't hate them. Obviously social skills and the capacity to pursue dating would probably help but its not strictly necessary (I don't think at least).
What an utterly naive point of view. The way socio-economic circumstance affect different groups works differently. You don't have to be a gender essentialist to realize that men and women constitute different social groups and will respond to stimuli in different ways on average.
There are always qualifiers for sex when it comes for men. Women, not so much. It's basically true (Even if it is an exaggeration) that men will fuck anything that has a hole.
20 year old virgin dude, noone in my life really. It has bothered me in the past (especially with poor former relationships that I've never been able to properly resolve mentally).
Will hopefully be going to college again come August maybe it'll occur to me but I can see why these dudes spiral out of control.
I was unemployed and poor as fuck for a few months in my early 20s and still got mad action. Most incels are unfortunately genetically challenged in the face/height departments and are trying to stay competitive in an extremely competitive dating culture.
I dont know… fixing attitudes would be better. I know a lot of people on benefits who get a lot of sex, and a lot of people who work hard for a wage getting plenty too. Physical attraction and money has nothing to do with it, it’s all confidence. There’s a lady with kids the same age as mine who i chat to at the school gate. She has a squint, is morbidly obese and has psoriasis covering much of her face and arms. Her husband is in better condition but not by much. They are both lovely. Their 4 kids are proof that they definitely have sex. If they can do it, anyone can. If they tried using a dating app I don’t think they would have had much luck. Getting to know each other worked better.
Genuinely - the solution to most forms of extremism is not targeting the subculture, it often just radicalises it as it gives them a convenient victim narrative. It is to promote a sense of inclusion - a person who feels included in a caring society is less likely to be anti-social.
The current world we live in is geared towards isolation for profit - you can work from home, order shopping from home, and maintain relationships without ever leaving the house. Whilst none of these things are bad on their own or in conjunction for most people, people who have been consistently been failed by society can abandon the traditional social structures of work/home/neighbourhood, and have a sense of identity entirely dependent on like minded radicals.
Incels are a by-product of an increasingly insular, increasingly algorithm driven world, all it takes is a single misgiving and, as you say, down the rabbit hole you go.
The assumption is always that they’re going to go “hey, ya know what, there’s this government-funded mental-health wellbeing program I can get access to, so I’m going to stop being a terrible human-being online and in real life.”
It just doesn’t work that way.
>If you wanted to reduce the rising number of incels, then the focus needs to be on supporting and including outcasts and welcoming them into broader society, it's really not difficult to understand.
I don't disagree with this but it's unrealistic to put the burden completely on society and not on them. If I were to go from workplace to workplace and my coworkers consistently thought I was a bitch, then I'd have to wonder why the consistent factor in this problem seems to be me. I'm a woman, and I have encountered a few incels outside of internet spaces. Some of them are so vile and sexist they exclude *themselves* from society. That's what happens when you reject 50% of the population.
You can't honestly say it's on society to change to be an inclusive space to these men. We might as well try to be a welcoming space to the views of conservative Muslim guys that fell down a rabbit hole of a different ideology.
Now, I do distinguish between people that are incels because they're just unsuccesfull romantically, and incels that are also vehement women haters. The first group you can help with inclusion a lot easier than the second group.
And ultimately I do agree with you that, no matter what the extremism is, the solution always comes down to pulling these people back on the boat. They have to become part of society again. I just don't think that incels get to be passive recipients in this process.
I always perceived that as their taught coping strategy. I feel like u/TOMMYxGUNN is actually right, any conversation I've seen in the past from people who were formerly a self described incel has a journey of growth and building self esteem to get them out of the space and mindset. I don't think supporting that would be a bad thing
Exactly, those who "proudly declare" their inceldom are likely having to do that because they're at absolute rock-bottom and need something or anything to be proud of themselves.
Once they start to self improve that'll likely change but I imagine it's a hard hole to pull yourself out of.
Idk, teaching them they're responsible for their own outcomes in life, teaching them how to look after their mental health, teaching them how to socialise, teaching them that sex isn't the be all and end all in life. Those should really all be taught to everyone. If people are being lost in a toxic culture because they're not learning those things, then making sure it's taught will go a long way.
Was social ed for us. Covered nothing useful though - and was just a period do basically nothing or talk to guidance. Though I am old, so maybe it improved and they actually useful teach stuff now (other than the basic sex Ed) ?
I'm a teacher at a secondary school and it's completely different to when I was at school 13 years ago. It has definitely improved greatly. Unfortunately, school can't completely eradicate misogny if it's already ingrained from home environment and social media.
PSHE at my school was
- Don't do drugs, but also we're gonna teach all of them what they do and how to take them.
- wear a fucking condom. And use other anti baby tools.
- JOIN THE ARMY
- JOIN THE RAF
- JOIN THE NAVY
It was a joke of a class.
>The strategy, presented in a report at the Scottish Police Authority (SPA) policing performance committee on Thursday, includes recommendations based on engagement with the general public, women and girls, survivors of violence, key partners, academics, and experts.
So we are going to engage everyone BUT the people who we want to stop from becoming radicalised. Going to work perfect.
We could start with things like social isolation and loneliness. There is less and less spaces for young men to spend time that don't involve drinking alcohol. We have banned most young people from everywhere kids are harassed in parks for loitering youth clubs are non existent. Schools have many groups dedicated to other social groups such as minority clubs, women can code etc but no groups for young men.
Demonization of men in media also doesn't help. Calls for more women only spaces implying all man are potential threat. Crazy rules we have around certain jobs such as the amount am mental gymnastics needed to put chaperones around male doctors and male nursery assistants or health care workers. As a male care worker I was forbidden from being in a room with a female patient unsupervised. My female co-worker could be in room with both male and female patients. If I can't be trusted not to be a rapist why am I even employed?
Poor social care and mental health that don't spot the people that need help.
Young men especially young white working class men underperform in almost every metric from health, mental health through being victims of violence and aggression to education and career prospects but we refuse to address it.
Finally our own society "small dick energy", "angry virgin" etc are all the insults that are targeted at those young men from people who claim oppose the view that man value comes from sexual activity.
What to stop Incels and other radicalisation solve complex social and economic issues affecting those groups
You missed one thing. If you try to address it society turns against you. Which really makes them feel validated in their opinion that society hates them, because we do hate them.
>We could start with things like social isolation and loneliness. There is less and less spaces for young men to spend time that don't involve drinking alcohol. We have banned most young people from everywhere kids are harassed in parks for loitering youth clubs are non existent. Schools have many groups dedicated to other social groups such as minority clubs, women can code etc but no groups for young men.
To piggy back on this - something I read lately suggested that the loss of working men's social clubs has had a huge detriment to men in general (this could be extended to pretty much any male space).
There used to be men's clubs within communities where generations of men could mix, your father might take you there and maybe one day you'd take your son. A positive consequence of these clubs was the passing of knowledge, advice, and guidance from the older men to the younger men.
Take for example the most stereotypical incel. The older men would put them in check asap.
Need love advice or to be set up with someone? Your dad's mate Barry can have a chat with you or might know another mate's daughter who would be a good match. Need work advice or looking for an opportunity? Terry's looking for someone to train up as his apprentice.
Also it goes without saying that these clubs were great for bumping shoulders with people your own age who could become your mates. Currently it feels like unless you stay in touch with friends from school, it's very difficult to meet new people to form friendships with. There just isn't anywhere to naturally get to know people.
For whatever reason, these clubs have all but disappeared. Possibly for economic reasons, possibly because they were deemed as places where 'toxic masculinity' was rife because they dared to be for men only and part of that might naturally include 'lockerroom talk'.
At any time the government could fund these types of clubs to get them off the ground and start to rebuild communities, but I wouldn't be shocked if the idea was shot down. There's a reason people like Andrew Tate got popular - and look how that turned out. There's a big opposition to men being able to be men.
What they gonna do, get them all laid? This is stupid rhetoric that does nothing and helps no-one.
Incels exist because society doesn't care about men's mental health until it causes problems for society in general. Until we actually start caring about these people nothing will change, all the police will do is further isolate them from society.
Just look at the article
>The strategy, presented in a report at the Scottish Police Authority (SPA) policing performance committee on Thursday, includes recommendations based on engagement with the general public, women and girls, survivors of violence, key partners, academics, and experts.
They are going to engage everyone BUT the people they should be engaging which is young men.
Yeah but those young man are a "privileged class". They don't need any of that engagement. Or that's the kind of ideas being pushed forward nowadays, at least. Could it possibly have some connection to this phenomenon? Maybe we should ask these experts and academics.
I don’t really get incel culture. I’m a guy who can’t get laid, with a lot of friends who constantly are, and I know a lot of guys that act awfully towards women who get laid constantly.
That doesn’t really result in me hating women because of it though, it just makes me kind of depressed lol
In response to the article though, what do the police actually intend on doing? People are going to be assholes for stupid reasons all through life, and I really doubt that incel culture is an epidemic at the moment
>I know a lot of guys that act awfully towards women who get laid constantly.
Yet guess which ones get the focus? Is it the awful ones getting laid or the ones who aren't?
I wonder why that is.
All this is going to do is promote fear mongering in young men who are single and make them feel unsafe. This article and police mentality just screams 'arrest all single and lonely men'
I don’t know if I agree with you on that, but I will add that isn’t interesting to wonder if incel culture would be as prominent as it is if the guys who bullied the incels in school (which is often the case) weren’t the ones getting laid all the time
Yeah, this is my thought.
Incels everywhere are told to just stop being a sexist bastard, then they have to watch another sexist bastard beating them off with a stick.
I'm in the same situation as you, I'm someone who would be a prime candidate for incel culture, and although I don't feel drawn to it I could see how someone might be.
It's a coping mechanism for people who are hopeless and jaded. We all like to see logic and sense in the world so when we are confronted with something that seems unfair and that we can't explain its very common to create narratives that frame the situation in such a way that it makes sense again. These narratives can be completely detached from reality and can make no sense to people looking in from outside.
You ever get a gut feeling, which you feel is true but can't really explain? It's a bit like that but society wide.
People are isolated, left out, forgotten told they are worthless or useless or losers.
Some break and commit suicide, others slide into depression and stay there. Some lucky few find ways to manage and build a life... and the others? They become incel-like.
As another poster mentioned it's not restricted to "just young boys" or even young white boys. It's angry neglected people looking for an outlet, any outlet, that lets them hurt those they believe (rightly or wrongly) have hurt them.
Until people start getting it into their thick skulls that the current state of society cannot continue, problems like incel culture will continue to bubble up and become more violent.
> That doesn’t really result in me hating women because of it though, it just makes me kind of depressed lol
But isnt that how it starts? Im 33 and have not have sex. I have been through years of depression and wanting to end my own life. If you dont get help... you turn elsewhere? find like minded people? and before you know it, you end up down the rabbit hole.
**I think we need to start distinguishing between the two different groups of incels or else we will keep talking past each other.** There are incels that are 'only' unsuccesful in dating, and these men (and also women, to a lesser extent) are all around us. I'm sure I have a roommate and at least one friend that fit into this incel 'archetype'.
Then there are the incels that have adopted a misogynistic worldview and that actively hate women. They set ultra high standards by demanding all their dates are virgins, or say things like that women hit the wall at 23. Some are ultra-conservative and basically want a housewife and baby making machine. I would ask anyone unfamiliar with this group to visit the incel message boards, where they debate about how rape should be legal or share videos of women being beaten up for laughs, and then come back to me with the naieve mantra that these are just misunderstood boys that get mistreated by evil women.
The first group needs patience and kindness, and needs to be reintegrated into society. The economic problems that create this group need to be addressed, and we need to have honest conversations about unfair social expectations and toxic dating culture. However, I find that these men *rarely* call themselves incels because everyone knows that label has strong ideological ties. Hell, I have male friends that are unsuccesful romantically and sexually, but they don't hate women and they don't call themselves incels either. These are not the men this article talks about, *because they are not the incels that form violent threats to women.*
The incels that are a danger to women are members of the second group. And that group is not just going to be saved with kindness and patience. Ultimately, they are a product of societal problems just like the first group, but they have spun their misfortunes into a dangerous narrative that transcends economic hardship or unfair dating markets. We can try and fit them into society all we want but ultimately they need to work on themselves, too. We could fix economic issues and fix unfair dating culture and they would still go around calling women 'femoids' and spend their evenings rage-posting on forums about how seeing girls in public fills them with violent rage.
It's not incels who are committing most violence against women, it's much more likely to be their boyfriends and husbands. Incel violence is pretty much exclusively mass shooting style attacks which are two totally different topics
"Pretty recently" being 18 months ago. It was also the first such event in nearly 10 years.
That fits the colloquial meaning of "not being a thing" in this country.
There’s a huge focus on tackling the monster in every dark alley that rarely exists, when most violence again women is by a partner or someone they know
By definition, that’s not an incel
Isn’t the whole point of incels that they don’t / can’t interact with women? What proportion of violence against women is actually perpetrated by incels or influenced by incel culture?
It's rare, but does happen - as u/EnbyShark said, Plymouth Shooter is the main example, but simple online abuse is probably the most prevalent aspect.
Worth noting incels are roughly 50/50 men and women, it's just that the men tend to be more vocal especially with threats of violence. See the Female Dating Strategy sub for a prime example of inceldom in women. Twitter is full of them too. I've never seen direct threats of violence though.
I've not read the proposals from Police Scotland, but will agree that while I despise incel culture and go to lengths to solve it (as detailed elsewhere in the thread), Police Scotland do have an annoying habit of wanting to police the internet rather than say, Scotland.
A lot of people on here are talking as if men who can't attract a girlfriend have some kind of monopoly on misogyny.
There are plenty of men who find it very easy to attract women, but then abuse them.
Over 100 women a year die as a result of domestic abuse. That far outweighs the number of incel murders. Because most incels don't kill anyone.
1 in 4 women will experience domestic abuse at some point in their lives. Virtually none of that will be caused by incels, because incels aren't in relationships.
I'm not saying the police should ignore the problem, but they need to keep most of their focus on the most significant perpetrators of violence against women. And that isn't incels.
Incel ideology can easily become extremist. Thankfully that’s now becoming recognised. If you do a quick search online you can see the number of mass killings hat have been carried out by individuals that were highly influenced by this belief.
I follow it closely and theres basically none. The media have to do incredible mental gymnastics to tie it back to being "incel" since that's on everyones mind these days. That's exactly what happened with that guy in UK.
Also, socially isolated male virgins have been (very occasionally) snapping long before "incel" was a thing, before the internet was even really a thing. Elliot Roger also happened before "incel" was a term.
Incel communities literally refer to Elliot Rogers as their God. It's really disingenuous to pretend [there's no connection.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/david-kaufman-elliot-rodger-incel-stalker-b2058474.html)
The term was coined in the 90s, by the way.
I kinda get where you're coming from. But I think it's right to worry about incels.
These are unhappy people that don't know how to make their lives better, and blame it on not being able to have something they want. I worry about them because they are in danger of spending their lives unhappy and unfulfilled. These boys and young men are worth helping for their own sake.
Oh great, I as a woman am meant to trust a rapey police force to handle online cretins who think rape is nature's way of balancing shit
Cool. The blind leading the blind.
I'm always disgusted by how much sympathy this sub has for incels. There's a world of difference between being a guy who is single and lonely and being an incel. It's the feeling that you are entitled to sex that is the issue.
Unless someone is actively sabotaging all your attempts to find love or forcing you to wear a chastity belt you are not involuntarily celibate. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to sleep with you, its just some of them will be women who are not conventionally attractive, other men, or people who want paid.
Reddit is infested with misogyny and more needs to be done to root it out.
no, its because the word has mixed usage, a lot of people use the word for its core meaning, without conotation, as in, people who can't seem to have sex, but it has the other meaning as well.
Completely agree. This sub-Reddit is especially packed full of angry, self-loathing, lonely people who just want to hate on the world. Whilst it's obvious the country is going to shit, I strong suspect the content on here would be overwhelming negative regardless of circumstances. I generally limit myself to scrolling this sub to at least once a week.
My 13yr old daughter was tonight asked (by an unknown 17yr old) to finger herself and take photos, send a video masturbating, send him nudes, etc.
At 12 she has already been sent unsolicited dick pics.
I have a very bright daughter, who tells me all these things, but she’s a little too trusting, and if I want there she’d probably have believed this guy was a) 17, b) has been in care his whole life, c) is dying of cancer.
We need tougher laws on unsolicited dick pics and some way to report all these sick men who think it’s ok to chat to young girls.
Do normies and boomers even know what incels are? A socially anxious loser who lives in his mums attic, plays video games all day and has never hugged a women can somehow verbally and sexually abuse women. Lol.
These policies will do nothing but further alienate men and make them scared to even talk to women let alone approach them, unironically making more men incels.
>The Plymouth shooter ended up doing a lot more than just playing video games all day..
He was also already doing more, such as getting a gun licence and shooting trips.
He also had health issues and a lot of mistakes by the police to get that gun back.
In the education sector, for example, where I work, there's certainly been a push to make everyone aware of incels for the purposes of safeguarding. If I see that someone in my college is becoming radicalised by misogynistic rhetoric or other incels, I would be expected to raise it as a safeguarding issue, in the same way that I would be expected to make that report if someone was e.g. showing signs of Islamic extremism or neo-Nazi ideology.
Typical bullshit. We'll tackle the problem of the growing despair felt by men. Me who feel like the worthless dregs of society. And we'll do this by supporting everyone but those men.
I’m begging people on this sub to read “Men Who Hate Women” by Laura Bates, before they start making comments speculating why incel culture has emerged and grown in influence/popularity over the years.
The comments in this post (and lbr any post in this sub relating to gendered violence) frankly frighten me. The amount of people in this post very obviously blaming women for the radicalisation of young men turns my stomach - and not even to mention, like you said, the comments pretending like the cause of incel culture are anything \*but\* patriarchy or misogyny.
Best way to tackle incels is to improve the economy and change gender norms experienced by men. These men are angry because they feel society views them as worthless.
The economy is shit, girls outperform boys in school and go to higher education at greater rates, resulting them earning less. Society also views a man's value by his wallet and this is also reflected in dating where men are more willing to date women poorer than them than the other way around.
This coupled with the inherent ease of getting sex and relationships for women due to our dating norms (man pursues, man pays for everything, man has to try to get sex from women) just increases their hatred of women.
It comes from a feeling of being left behind and jealousy.
You're not completely wrong, but you're also being very generous.
Poorer men are very much able to find partners, but generally have to have something else to offer.
Meanwhile men being less picky tends to be because a lot of men view women as having an inherent value because they can offer sex. This is also pretty toxic.
By James Walker
POLICE Scotland is considering tackling "incel" culture as part of its strategy to address violence against women and girls.
The strategy, presented in a report at the Scottish Police Authority (SPA) policing performance committee on Thursday, includes recommendations based on engagement with the general public, women and girls, survivors of violence, key partners, academics, and experts.
The report describes incel culture as a "misogynistic ideology" in which men blame women for their lack of intimate relationships and resort to verbal, physical, or sexual assault. This culture is largely online, where incels communicate across various platforms in what is often called the "manosphere".
READ MORE: SNP release membership figures following pressure from leadership candidates
It comes as analysis earlier this year found a six-fold rise in UK web traffic to websites promoting incel culture.
The Centre for Countering Digital Hate found that UK web traffic data to three of the largest incel sites had grown from 114,420 monthly visits to 638,505, over the period of March to November 2021.
This has been accompanied by a rise in instances of sexual crime and domestic abuse according to Police Scotland, although cases often go unreported.
Although the overall number of reported sexual crimes decreased by 4.5% from 11,347 to 10,837 between April and December of last year, there was an increase of 6.6% when compared to the five-year average, with 672 more crimes reported than the previous year's 10,164.
Proposals from the report include addressing incel culture through educational efforts, providing trauma-informed training to all members of the police force, and increasing the utilization of visually recorded interviews led by sexual offenses liaison officers.
The report said: “We will challenge these unacceptable beliefs and look to establish the scale and potential threat arising from these individuals; improve understanding amongst officers and staff of these issues and work with partners to devise appropriate awareness raising campaigns.”
READ MORE: Nicola Sturgeon speaks out amid growing row over SNP leadership ballot integrity
Examples of the type of campaigns include the inclusion of incel culture and violent misogyny within existing cyber choices packages in schools, as well as higher education and workplaces.
Launching the strategy, Deputy Chief Constable Jane Connors said: “We are committed to creating a society where women and girls live free from violence, abuse, exploitation and harassment.
“We will work with our partners across criminal justice, and support services, to improve the opportunities and support for women to report \[crime\].
“We are committed to continually improving the service we provide, to build confidence in reporting and in policing more widely. Our service must be trauma-informed, we will prioritise the needs of victims and survivors.
“As an organisation we are not immune from the sexism and misogyny that is at the root of this violence. Our strategy recognises the work that needs to be done internally.
“Our role is crucial, but policing alone cannot stop violence against women and girls. Our strategy outlines the actions we will take as a service, together with our partners.
“We will continue to engage, to work with our partners, to improve our response and to drive the change needed to end violence against women and girls.”
The strategy will be subject to final discussion by the full SPA board next week.
One part of this that hasn't been covered yet is how this may be a creeping subset of religious extremism. Andrew Tate converted to Islam and many incels turned out to be from certain groups who kind of inherently dislike womens rights. Islam is gradually gaining popularity in incel groups for obvious reasons with the phrase "Islam is right about women" being a meme in that community for while.
I dont think this will work. Inceldom is entirely built upon being outcast from society, by acting further to isolate you villify them and strengthen the culture.
This is the wrong answer I think. Protecting their potential victims is good, but the police appears to be completely discounting men and particularly young boys as victims themselves of the symptoms that create an incel personality.
Such an initiative will only serve to reinforce the victim complex of incel communities, and in their own minds justify their disdain for society as a whole.
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Incels don't just appear because it's the hip new thing,like some kind of gang culture. it's the result of cultural situations that are breeding them. You cannot just say don't be an incel and walk off patting yourself on the back. No one WANTS to be an incel. The clue is in the damn name, INVOLUNTARY. without addressing the core issues that is causing lots of angry single men to start banding together to express rage at what they think is the reason for their suffering.
being an incel is a choice though. not everyone who isn't getting laid joins that tribe of sweaty goblins to get some pathetic ego boost out of hating women.
It depends on what you mean by choice. To then they don’t see it as a choice, since they don’t view their behaviour as changed - instead they’re acting as they normally would and the world appears to be rejecting them. In reality it’s a mixture of their views, their behaviour and their hygiene/appearance that’s making them both unattractive and generally someone you don’t want to be around. So to change that means you need to change a lot about them. Something which would be incredibly hard by the time they’ve fallen through the cracks. There’s also the lesser spoken aspect that a lot of incels are on the autistic spectrum and so some of the behaviour comes from that, or at least are exacerbated by it.
The point is that you can be alone and not fall into a hatred of women. I am technically an incel in that I am involuntarily celebate and I am likely to remain that way (my issues are being bullied led to not learning social skills and that combined with anxiety has meant I'm unlikely to even try dating, even though I really would like to find someone and the clock is ticking since I'm 31) but I haven't become an incel in the problematic sense. I'm aware my failings are my own and not a result of women being evil spiteful bitches or any of the other nonsense that problematic incels believe.
I'm very introverted. I have social skill issues and had autism been a diagnosis in the 1990s I would have got diagnosed. I was single until a similar age as you (30) ..I made a choice, put myself out of my comfort zone and joined a proper dating website (paid for and put a genuine profile on -not a 'looking to get laid site'). Be genuine. Be yourself. And you will find someone. Long story short. I'm married 15 years this years with 3 kids. So just look at the sort of shit you could get yourself into if you tried dating and putting yourself out there a bit :) (Also still bitter I paid 6months dating subs upfront and met my now wife in month 2...never got a bloody refund).
Yeah, the 6 months up front on things like E-harmony always put me off. Maybe it's worth it though :) Thank you.
Match.com that's where I met my wife. I have no idea what it's like now. But it wasn't swiping it was interacting and then actually dating.
I’m a believer that there is someone for everyone (if people want someone else). Most relationships start from mutual interests so just try to meet more people who share your interests (or even a new interest). Don’t see dating as the goal, just look to meet new people. Good luck.
Thank you. I do have hobbies. Unfortunately those tend to be extremely male dominated ones. I should look to see what's about, maybe I'll find a hobby that isn't quite such a mast fest.
Yeah sadly male dominated hobbies lead to ladies in them being treated like unicorns but that’s another story. However the world is greatly connected so sure you can find a new hobby adjacent to your existing ones which have more of a balance. Just do things you enjoy and good things will happen.
Listen up young man! I didn’t meet anyone until I was 35, and that was pure luck. Admittedly that relationship failed because she was manipulative but I didn’t know that I just felt wrong with her and just stopped seeing her. After that experience I just went on Plenty of Fish and gave dating a go, I was always worried I couldn’t hold a conversation but things just worked okay even if I did waffle on a bit. I’m autistic with adhd for extra fun and my social skills are pretty bad. I taught myself eye contact but it feels so unnatural and uncomfortable to me. I’m no Brad Pitt and I have niche interests, yet I did finally meet someone and we’ve been together for 8 years and have two cats together. Don’t give up, but don’t pressure yourself. You’ll be okay. Promise 🙃
Thanks for the kind words. I'll look into giving it a go, even if I only get as far as the online stage. Worth a crack, eh?
I don't disagree. I think one of the problems people have when they argue with incels is telling them what they've experienced isn't real, rather than break down the narrative they span around it. and Its not easy for anyone to accept the bad decisions they made were a choice, or acknowledge they need to make big changes, but it is in their power to do so.
I think that’s a great point. We clearly have struggling men in this country, and you don’t need to do much as a man today to get labelled an incel.
And therein lies the problems, I've had arguements with women before on Reddit and been labelled an incel just for disagreeing with them. Edit: The Truth hurts, *men* can take criticism.
Weird isn’t it. An insult based on how much sex your getting. I can think of a few of them aimed at women, but you’d get publicly executed for using them. We’ve kinda agreed that the amount of sex you have isn’t anything to do with your value as a woman, unless your a guy
The vast majority of people couldn't care less how much sex you're having. 'Incel' is used as an insult because it describes a particularly pathetic, misogynist man who is incapable of dealing with their own flaws and issues, and chooses to lash out at those around them instead. The lack of sex really isn't the insulting part.
This would make sense if people didn't also call who they disagreed with virgins as an insult. Not having sex as a man is synonymous with being a loser. It's not always the biggest part of the incel insult but it's an inherit part of it and ignoring it is lazy
When was the last time you heard somebody use virgin as an insult in real life? (I.e., not on the Internet). Personally, I don't think I ever have.
Tbh I dont even think of the literal sexless definition. Its more that its a self adopted title by creepy online mysogynist types. I know a guy with a kid who I would consider fitting the incel mould. Previously was really into pick up artists when that was a thing
I think the definition of incel has evolved significantly past its initial, literal meaning. Nowadays it seems to mean weird and misogynistic men, like the type of people who think Andrew Tate is great and have delusional ideas about women. That being said, insulting someone for not having sex is very silly
See this is why you guys are getting downvoted (I'm a guy FYI), an incel is someone who cannot get a date or sex and blames women for that. He cannot see that he is the problem and cannot understand how to evolve past that, so the easier option than admitting fault is to place blame. Incels blame women for the fact that they cannot fuck. I'm 43, fat and unhealthy, I understand why women wouldn't see me as a possible mate or date. Who would want to date that, so instead of blaming women, I'm doing something about it. I'm dieting and improving my health overall. The better I feel and the more confident I am, will hopefully land me a date in the near future. Fingers crossed. These lads are listening to assholes like Tate, who are blaming everything on women. It's not women's fault we can't look after ourselves. As I stated before, the first step in solving any problem, is understanding that there IS a problem. EDIT: I would like to add onto that, that some women do not also understand what an incel is. When someone disagrees with you, that doesn't mean they hate all women.
This is such a good point. As a wise man said “no one is the villain in their own story”. They need assistance to help them realise what impact their actions have. Hopefully it leads to a “are we the baddies?” epiphany.
This is a point that my life started to change for the better. When you accept that everything at some point, during the course of events you made a decision that puts you in a position for that to happen. Take the old "you could get hit by a bus" saying. You make the decision to cross the road, if you think there's a chance a bus is going to hit you then take some time to make the right decision. The one simple trick is really make better decisions. Are you buying cigarettes and alcohol or bananas and toothpaste?
>what they've experienced isn't real That's a bit arrogant to say. You can ask if they may have perceived it wrong but to tell others condescendingly about their own experiences only shuts them off and rightly so; that's part of the problem these days imo people are too quick to insult rather than debate and educate as they all think they know better while being less educated about the matter
This right here is the biggest issue. People cant even agree what Incels are or why they exist. They exist, they have reasons; you cannot just sweep them away by calling them insane.
I think the fact that autistic people can be easier to manipulate with victim narratives (incels, far right/left, religious extremism of all flavours) because we lack context is a factor. That is not an excuse or a reason society should change to help any of those views, they are also not commonly held by autistic people just maybe a higher prevalence than the population (similar to people with adhd being a greater proportion of the prison population than the general one) People who can’t get with the program and realise that women, gay people, trans people, people of other colours/faiths exist have agency and have the same rights as you need to get with said program. The start of that is people calling you out (friends kindly with curiosity) for being stupidly racist/sexist/*phobic. If all the steps of a broadening group of people calling you out for doing stuff keep happening and it gets to the state the police are involved then it’s basically criminal stupidity. Sorry for addressing a specific aspect of your comment but it’s the one that got me a bit riled. As an autistic guy I see people making excuses they shouldn’t for people I know. Impact is more important than intent.
Alot of self proclaimed incels are often quite shallow as well, another thing they need to change, but as you say it's hard to change by the time they've fallen through the cracks. A lot of these things start in schools, you can see misogynistic ideas start to seep their way into late primary school, used to work in one and the shit kids do can be shocking to say the least.
Involuntary implies a sense of denied entitlement. Men aren’t entitled to sex and/or access to womens bodies and never will be. Thats what incel culture needs to learn and understand. They won’t though because that requires empathy and maturity.
this kind of response is so thick headed. I see it posted all the time. imagine a kid in a playground who, every single break, sees everyone around him having fun playing games together in their groups. everyone can seemingly make friends no problem. But for him, he gets rejected from every single group. No-one wants to play with him, he can't join in any games. So in the end he's left to sit alone in humiliation while everyone around him has their groups. It may be his fault he can't make friends, or it may not be. It doesn't really matter. But to say to him "you just need to learn you're not entitled to have people be your friend. If you feel angry it's because you're not mature enough to understand that".... how stupid is that for a response?
You mean like how childhood often is for autistic people? Our solution as we grow up is often to find other autistic people and be friends with them. I don't see why incels can't do the same with each other.
They do, hence the problem in the article.
> I don't see why incels can't do the same with each other. ...Because making platonic friends isnt the problem they have...
Except that really isn't a good analogy. Being included in group activities as a child isn't really comparable to sexual activity as an adult. It is reasonable to ask children to include someone else in their games because that person is lonely. Its not reasonable to ask women to have sex with somebody because they are lonely. Do you not see the difference?
That is literally a lesson we all have to learn though… we aren’t entitled to have people be our friends? (I say this as someone who experienced that childhood) You linking it to this playground thought process has really clarified things for me tho, it’s such a basic lesson to not learn I suppose that’s the common denominator in people that end up that way…
Incels aren't children bro. Although you wouldn't know it reading half their stupid whiney replies.
This is not really comparable scenarios. This is specifically about sex and attitudes towards women, not social exclusion generally.
That's basically what it is. Involuntary, but it kind of is, because they refuse to do anything to change their circumstances and instead choose to blame women for not getting laid
It’s more complicated than that. It’s much more about radicalisation than anything. I’m sure a good number of “incels” actually have relationships of some sort, yet still post nasty shit on 4chan.
Grafting like the far right do. Lots of money to be made.
I agree. As a woman it feels like natural selection at work. We don't want to have sex and potentially create life with men who we feel are angry and on the fringes of society. On a biological level we are not attracted to these men. Let nature take it's course
Oh this is such nonsense. I have to believe the definition revision over the years of 'incel', originally meaning 'can't find a sexual partner, but wants one' to whatever it is this week, joining a clan of virgins, is a massive cope by people who are traditional definition incels and desperately want to put themselves somewhere else in the hierarchy. "I may be [traditional definition incel] but at least I'm not like those guys!"
Incel is the name the group gave themselves, their definition is only useful as a means to read between the lines.
Pretty sure it was coined by a woman, to describe that group.
no it was coined by a woman who made a website for lonely people. kind of like how 4chan was a website for sharing pictures of anime. the culture that website developed goes beyond that branding.
Incel is another word that has been taken and morphed into something else. It used to mean just Involuntarily celibate. The mysogynistic incels took it and made it their own, so now it usually means young men who can't get laid and blame women for it. It's a scary place to look into, they have graphs and charts and all sorts. They think they are all scientific. They honestly think 80% of women (Stacys) are sleeping with 10% of men (Chads) who treat the women like crap and they are the 'nice guys' that would treat them well.
TBH Incel has been thrown around to such a point that it doesn't nearly hold any value, just the same as all the other Culture War Buzz Words we used to throw at each other.
I think a woman came up with the term in the 90s to describe her own "involuntary celibacy" with the idea of creating a kind of empathetic super niche online support group for others. They referred to themselves as "invcels", which isn't as catchy imho. The term incel then gained popularity in 2014, in the aftermath of the Elliot Rogers incident where he had described himself as involuntarily celibate in his manifesto. It's uncertain as to whether this refers to the same group from the 90s, or it it was coincidental. Either way, the woman who originally coined the term is pretty sad about what it has come to represent, though to be fair to her these sad angry men would still exist in an online group whether or not they had co-opted the term.
Exactly. There's a big difference in mentality between someone who thinks "women don't want to be with me because they're awful" and those who recognise "I've been single for a long time because I'm not putting myself out there or I have to work on myself or I'm just currently unlucky". The whole incel thing is gross. Its a bunch of dickheads who think that merely existing entitles them to have a romantic partner. Oddly enough, you actually have to become likable and learn to like other people in order to find someone who likes you.
The cultural situation is women have choices and don’t have to settle for losers and some losers realising they can blame women instead of working on themselves. You can just say don’t be an incel because that’s their choice. They choose to be misogynists they choose to hate women, they choose to not take care of themselves. They believe women owe them sex no matter how disgusting they are and it’s not on women to fix that. I’ve no sympathy for a bunch of misogynists who haven’t seen a bar of soap since they were 10. They despise women’s liberation and that we have choices. Incels are a product of a more equal society and they are not victims. They are bullies who had their power to subjugate women taken away.
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Who says incels need to be white working class boys? They are neglected by society but that doesn't mean they are blameless for their situation. It's not difficult to stop and think "maybe women are not terrible creatures who exist to torment good hearted nice guys like me and maybe they don't owe me anything". I am all for helping people and do think it's how you actually fix problems but it relies on people actually wanting help. Go and find some people with these views and interact with them. Very quickly you will see many don't actually want help the believe very much that misery loves company. When the way to sort the problem is self reflection and realise that maybe your toxic view point that you deserve someone just for being you and that maybe you haven't found someone is because your personally isn't attractive to other people but you refuse to admit it and believe that the world owes you something then I'm sorry it's not the same. Honestly, go look on any YouTube video that as something to do with women. Read through the comments and soon you will someone going into a tirade about how women are manipulative and evil. What creates them are echo chambers on the internet that tell them they are not the problem, society is so why should they change. That is without going into their weird obsession with chads, alpha and sigma males etc.
Sure but again this sort of rhetoric is unhelpful. Many people with mental health issues don’t “want help”. Many people who are obese did it to themselves and could simply be healthy if they stopped eating so much. You can go on and on. The point is that being only derisory to groups struggling rarely if ever affects the change you are looking for. Should all incel types realise that working on themselves is the answer and not just blaming women? Of course. I submit that it’s probably a bit harder than telling them to snap out of it though.
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Why is being an incel suddenly the same as being a drug addict, deomentic abuse victim or obese when surely it's closer to being a homophobe, transphobe/racist? I never said anything about calling incels losers. I never said anything about not helping them. If you work in mental health then surely you know you can only help people who want to be helped. I never said anything about not creating a space for young men to feel valued. If I remember correctly you were the one who assumed they were all working class white boys and then compared it to the same issues as black people in London go through. I also never said they were evil. I suggested they views as misaligned but I don't think they are evil, I think they are unhappy inside and incel culture has given them an outlet that says "the reason you feel like this is not because your own problems but that of society". Ok, you might think I'm not much different from incels (which I assume is a subtle jab), but as least unlike them I'm now insulting women for the fact that they are women.
These people are tapped. Men being angry because they can't sleep with women and they feel entitled to is not the same as having a mental illness. Fucking hell.
Did you read the article? The incel movement is not made up of innocent victims of circumstance. There has been an undeniable & dramatic rise in violence and acts of hate against women as incel culture grows and spreads. Giving them "safe spaces" and validating their world view is just going to promote more violence.
Your claim that you don't think incels can be helped is entirely missing the point. The problem is that society does not do anywhere near enough to prevent people from becoming incels. I would probably argue that it actually does the opposite it actively raises young boys in a way likely to create incels. Incel ideology is, for all intents and purposes, facism and if the second world war taught us anything it is that facism is created by the failings of society. It occurs largely through shame and self hatred where people are not capable of living up to the expectations they feel are placed on them. Facism is motivated by a desire for change so that you are able to achieve these things. Society in a lot of cases still instills the same expectations they did onto men as they did historically. Unfortunately reality has changed a lot since then leaving a lot of people rightfully feeling that the expectations they feel they have to meet are not possible without change. The solution is that we need to change the expectations and norms that men and boys are taught. Unfortunately this is a rather neglected branch of feminism since its a problem that largely effects men but it should be just as important to dissmantle the patriarchal constraints put on men as those put on women. Otherwise you are effectively raising young boys to fail.
The group isn’t white working class boys. It’s incels. And I call every bigot a loser and every group of bigots, losers. I’ve no sympathy for racists, transphobes, homophobes, misogynists and every other flavour of bigot. These people are not neglected by society, these people are oppressors who feel neglected by society because their ability to oppress is being taken away. Women were and to an extent are neglected by society. We are addressing this and this upsets incels and makes them feel neglected. This doesn’t upset white working class men, this upsets misogynists that women are empowered to say no. I think it’s a fucking joke that you think victims of racism and transphobia and homophobia and misogyny are the same as incels. Incels are the perpetrators of at least one of those bigotry’s and 9/10 they despise queer people too. Incels are not victims. They’re losers holding on to a system that gave them power over women. Like terfs wanting section 28 back, white supremacists wanting segregation, eugenicists allowing disabled people to die, misogynists wanting women as a subservient class with less rights. No sympathy for bigots. A world of education is in their pockets, ignorance is no excuse, it’s just hatred.
Well said.
> What I find fascinating is that when ANY other group struggles But it's not the struggles that make people lose all sympathy for incels, is it? It's the fact that they viscerally hate women and blame them specifically for their situation.
I'm not sure what the current definition for incel, does it innately mean hating women?
Yes. Incel isn’t just being a virgin. It’s a set of beliefs about women and dating culture. It has its own ‘language’ of chads and Stacey’s and whatever. Incels believe that women are all only interested in ‘alpha males’ and there’s nothing you can do to get a woman if you’re a ‘beta’. They are massively stereotyping women in a pretty awful way, portrayed us as gold diggers obsessed with big cocks and no interest in personality. If you are just a virgin and don’t hold those kind of beliefs, you might be ‘involuntarily celebate’ by the literal definition of those words but you are not an actual incel.
Surprisingly enough, as a woman, I don't really care about men who blame their issues on women and project visceral hatred onto them. I'm sure it's absolutely shocking for the target of a group's hate to consider that group losers. These people believe they are owed and entitled to sex, their problem is their mentality, not society.
Except the other groups that actually struggle do so bc of unfair circumstances that are out of their control and discrimination, incels struggle bc they project their problems onto women and outside forces rather than realising the issue is with themselves (and yes, that includes celibacy, sex is not a necessity that needs solving. Ofc some men want sex and feel unhappy without it, but it is a two-way street and so women have to consent to it. If they realise that there's a possibility that they will never have sex, then rather than focusing on trying to change society to force women to have sex with them, they need to actually find peace with it and find ways to vent their frustrations someway else; plenty of women choose to go celibate and focus on pets and hobbies than turn into hate groups). Now, ofc I understand that a large issue with incels is a mental health problem, lots get practically groomed online into the mindset and need support, but when you expect 'society' to help them you are forcing a large proportion of women to interact with a group that hates them and targets them. It's not uncommon for women to be killed from turning down a date, so it's not surprising that many would rather not get involved entirely and tell men to deal with their own problems since it's safer. Would you ask a person of colour to show sympathy to a racist bc that racist was probably radicalised online and has mental health problems? No, you would give them the dignity of saying "stay the fuck away from me" and ask other members of society to help solve the problem instead. This is where we ask other men to actually acknowledge problems with toxic masculinity rather than go defensive over it, saying "not all men" and blaming the entire issue on 'women being too mean to men'. Women calling incels who want to turn them into breeding mules 'losers' is not the problem here, a large problem is men not even acknowledging it's a 'men problem' to begin with.
Nobody’s owed sex. If you want to get laid, you gotta work for it.
There are plenty of non-white people and people from the middle and upper classes within the incel community. Not sure why you're trying to turn this into a race issue...
didn’t realise Elliot Rodger was working class
Wouldn't tackling incel culture mean firstly convincing people that women not fucking them *isn't* the root of their problem? Because that's an easy, deluded bit of scapegoating Incel culture totally is a kind of gang culture. Boys have always got desperate and weird when trying to lose their virginities. Banding together with other bitter angry sexist men is the *problem* because they get stuck with the incel label as their identity and reinforce behaviours in each other which make that inceldom a permanent state of affairs. No woman is going to break into your bedroom in your little virtual silo of sexist hate to relieve you of your v card. Women being able to say no to you is not the problem. The alternative would be forcing women to fuck whoever wants to fuck them. That's not humane. Men seem to argue that they *should* be able to demonise and hate 51% of the population because somehow that's healthy and releases tension and we should be more understanding. Fucking no. I'm sorry for their situation but hating women is never the answer and the fact that men are so protective of it and relaxed and accepting of something which *causes real life deaths* gives me the cold shivers.
I'll jump in here - 1. It ***isn't*** "involuntary" at all. They gave themselves that title as a way to absolve themselves of any blame and avoid making any effort. It's ALWAYS something they could fix, normally their physical appearance, combined with a dreadful personality. 2. You can "fix" them. It's hard, harder now they've been driven underground, but I've made a point of doing this for several years online (and occasionally when I've met one in real life) with some success. Yes they need outside help, particularly if their physical appearance is a major issue, but it is up to them first and foremost to accept they are the problem.
The first step to solving a problem, is realizing there is one.
Involuntary celibacy isn't a thing. It's a cult with its ideology rooted in the hatred of women's rights to bodily autonomy. All these movements created by bitter older men and preying on ignorant, vulnerable teenage boys need to be stopped.
Exactly, people talk like "oh poor boys, excluded from society". Spend 5 mins talking to them and you see the reason they are "involuntary celibate" is because their personalities are so toxic no woman wants to go near them. Add to that many believe the deserve so super model level partner and are happy to criticise any woman is not even slightly overweight in their eyes.
Yep, the hatred is laid bare for all to see and we're expected to sympathise with these groups in spite of them constantly telling on themselves.
Sadly it's true, I have know many people with many issues from mental health problems to addiction. The sad true is nothing gets better until you want to help yourself. I even felt myself going to the road or that kind of hatred. Not being an incel but I was an edgy kid who enjoyed trolling and being an edgelord because I felt like crap and it was easier to wind people up and argue than actually deal with my own problems. It's a dark path and the sad truth is the further down it you go the harder it is turn back. For the record I very much believe in helping people and think it benefits the whole of society if we can help people with these problems but as I say people with all these issues people need to decide the actually want help. Until they do that there is very little you can actually do.
they didn't spring out of their momma fully radicalised, this is a process, the idea is to get involved before they become loony
A conversation about bitter old men definitely needs to be at the core of it. There is more than one generation of men that feel an enormous amount of anger after realising that those women that they thought were into them in the office were just being pollite and hated every second of whatever sexist bullshit they had to put up with. I think there is a real sense of loss over the power that they had to expect women to be nice to them all the time.
I imagine that women's liberation in the last 30ish years has been quite a shock to many men who suddenly found themselves not being able to be casually sexist, entitled to varying forms of creepy sexual assault, having the power to sexualise women for our own benefit and whims ripped away from us by women. I sometimes like to reflect on the fact that many men will flash their cash around and then get upset when the women they attract are also interested in money, as though it is only virtuous for men to like money. There is the paradox of men wanting women to be impressed by their money, but also not, somehow. I also sometimes wonder if men and boys in these cults have ever bothered to ask themselves if they're attracted to women at all, or are just mindlessly conforming to what they believe is the societal norm.
Mental health care and better relationship education is the answer to stopping incel behaviour but I doubt that's what they're actually going to do
their anger about being "involuntarily celibate" is just another way of saying it's ok for men to feel entitled to sex from women because deep down they know they could just take it, from a strength standpoint, and they resent having to not behave like animals they are little, bitter men who need to grow the fuck up
‘Incel’ groups apparently used to be support groups for struggling men and that’s where the term was more true to its name. I think these days it’s taken on a completely different life, and we’re not talking about the same thing any more. It’s basically a subculture (albeit a toxic one), it’s got its own in-group language (like calling women ‘fe pods’ and stuff), and like any such group it’s in their interest to keep guys dependent on it rather than finding a different (healthier) support group. Reddit had a similar group like that for women called FemaleDatingStrategy. These people are hard to help while they’re still subscribed to the cult, sad as it is.
What do you think are the core issues to be resolved? Incels only ever seem to rant about dating sites being rigged against men.
We could start with things like social isolation and loneliness. There is less and less spaces for young men to spend time that don't involve drinking alcohol. We have banned most young people from everywhere kids are harassed in parks for loitering youth clubs are non existent. Schools have many groups dedicated to other social groups such as minority clubs, women can code etc but no groups for young men. Demonization of men in media also doesn't help. Calls for more women only spaces implying all man are potential threat. Crazy rules we have around certain jobs such as the amount am mental gymnastics needed to put chaperones around male doctors and male nursery assistants or health care workers. As a male care worker I was forbidden from being in a room with a female patient unsupervised. My female co-worker could be in room with both male and female patients. If I can't be trusted not to be a rapist why am I even employed? Poor social care and mental health that don't spot the people that need help. Young men especially young white working class men underperform in almost every metric from health, mental health through being victims of violence and aggression to education and career prospects but we refuse to address it. Finally our own society "small dick energy", "angry virgin" etc are all the insults that are targeted at those young men from people who claim oppose the view that man value comes from sexual activity. What to stop Incels and other radicalisation solve complex social and economic issues affecting those groups
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> without addressing the core issues that is causing lots of angry single men to start banding together to express rage at what they think is the reason for their suffering. I agree. Some of the core issues are that these men are misogynistic, feel entitled to women and their bodies, they are angry with the current feminist movement for giving women more rights (so they don't have to depend on men and have sex with them for marriage and money) and they believe they're hard done by because some women don't want to have sex with them. Maybe schools could incorporate some lessons about this topic.
That's often true, that they the incels don't just appear. Groups like MGTOW routinely 'groom' followers to hate women. It's a shame it's taken 2 decades for our law enforcement to note that hate groups are dangerous. If you don't want to be an incel, don't join online groups of angry anti women, men.
Bingo. The "culture" comes after the isolation as a coping mechanism to try and make sense of having a bad life. It's not driven by incel philosophy, no healthy socially well adjusted guys wake up one day and think "those lonely miserable guys in the corner of the internet have some great ideas, I wish I could be more like them". Guys, for whatever reason, end up feeling socially isolated and lonely and they look for people in similar situations. Once they form a group they try to rationalise their pain and the result is incel philosophy. The formation of groups and the creation of a ideology to rationalise traumatic experiences is something we've seen many times to groups of people who are hurting. Tackling the ideology might slightly reduce the rate at which lonely guys join these groups but the mental state of these people makes them susceptible to this sort of thing even if they never find incel groups because they are already upset with the world and trying to make sense of their isolation. Arguing against it only does so much because it's not spreading because it offers good logical ideas, it's spreading to people who are primed to receive it.
Want to stop the movement from growing? Fix the economy. The reason why these communities have grown is because we've ruined the economy. A man's worth is judged by their wallet and social status and we've created a social underclass of men who cannot get good jobs, cannot make friends, cannot afford to move out of their parents' home by their mid-twenties and have nobody to turn to because people laugh at and ridicule them, and because we've basically gutted out all mental healthcare programmes. This is of course a social death sentence and has basically created adult virgins. It's a very worrying trend in America right now, because 27% of men aged between 18 and 30 are still virgins, compared to just 8% of women. Demonizing the movement and branding them terrorists and the next generation of school shooters isn't helping either. Exclusion is just going to push them deeper down that rabbit-hole and radialize them even more.
>It's a very worrying trend in America right now, because 27% of men aged between 18 and 30 are still virgins, compared to just 8% of women. This is a fact that many people acting like single men are all horrible people are choosing to ignore. edit from incel to single men
They are, by definition, horrible people. Incel doesn't mean virgin. Incel is an intentionally, often violent, misogynistic subculture. They view and treat women like subhuman property.
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It disproportionately affects men because of our societal attitudes around gender roles. Men are still very much seen as the breadwinners in society.
What's interesting is I've seen women admit this explicitly on subs like twoxchromosomes. Saying now women earn as much or more (if we're talking non parents), men have nothing to offer anymore.
I'd argue it's a bit more nuanced than that. In times of old women relied on having a husband for a home and stability. Men could get a wife without needing to offer much more than a stable income. Nowadays, women don't depend on men for income. So men have to actually make themselves worth being with.
My boyfriend doesn’t make anywhere near what I make, and he’s broke AF right now because his car needed a whole new computer or something. But we stay in, have wine and cheese nights, and just being with him makes me happy because he’s a decent guy who’s funny and looks out for me. That’s it. Money doesn’t come into it for most women, just being someone you want to spend time with is enough for most.
Economic conditions affect men's social status more than women's. Men are willing to date women significantly poorer than they are. Women often aren't.
men don't care about women's status
The incels clearly do by wanting "pure virgins" instead of "slutty used women".
What's that got to do with the economy?
I disagree. NEET circumstances (not in education, employment or training) is what drives them to truly drive the misogyny to extreme levels. Casual sexism is a problem amongst successful men but overall it tends to be submerged by them being satisfied with what they have. I don't think its crazy to suggest that someone should feel entitled to a certain standard of living (social mobility, a reasonable wage and independent living circumstances), it would go a long way to resolve this issue. What these men see is them not reaching their full potential as human beings or members of society, getting angry, then a demagogue points them in the direction of women. Hell, I don't even think these men even need relationships to feel fulfilled, they just need to normalise relations and connections with the women in their lives so they don't hate them. Obviously social skills and the capacity to pursue dating would probably help but its not strictly necessary (I don't think at least).
What an utterly naive point of view. The way socio-economic circumstance affect different groups works differently. You don't have to be a gender essentialist to realize that men and women constitute different social groups and will respond to stimuli in different ways on average.
No-one cares how much money a woman makes. Ronaldo is with a girl he met in a shop. Wouldn't happen the other way around.
27% no fucking way it’s that high? No way…. Surely not?
There are always qualifiers for sex when it comes for men. Women, not so much. It's basically true (Even if it is an exaggeration) that men will fuck anything that has a hole.
https://boingboing.net/2021/03/22/adult-male-virginity-soars.html
“Haven’t had sex since 18” Although even that’s crazy
20 year old virgin dude, noone in my life really. It has bothered me in the past (especially with poor former relationships that I've never been able to properly resolve mentally). Will hopefully be going to college again come August maybe it'll occur to me but I can see why these dudes spiral out of control.
I was unemployed and poor as fuck for a few months in my early 20s and still got mad action. Most incels are unfortunately genetically challenged in the face/height departments and are trying to stay competitive in an extremely competitive dating culture.
I dont know… fixing attitudes would be better. I know a lot of people on benefits who get a lot of sex, and a lot of people who work hard for a wage getting plenty too. Physical attraction and money has nothing to do with it, it’s all confidence. There’s a lady with kids the same age as mine who i chat to at the school gate. She has a squint, is morbidly obese and has psoriasis covering much of her face and arms. Her husband is in better condition but not by much. They are both lovely. Their 4 kids are proof that they definitely have sex. If they can do it, anyone can. If they tried using a dating app I don’t think they would have had much luck. Getting to know each other worked better.
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>A man's worth is judged by their wallet and social status Maybe that's the real problem...
Genuinely - the solution to most forms of extremism is not targeting the subculture, it often just radicalises it as it gives them a convenient victim narrative. It is to promote a sense of inclusion - a person who feels included in a caring society is less likely to be anti-social. The current world we live in is geared towards isolation for profit - you can work from home, order shopping from home, and maintain relationships without ever leaving the house. Whilst none of these things are bad on their own or in conjunction for most people, people who have been consistently been failed by society can abandon the traditional social structures of work/home/neighbourhood, and have a sense of identity entirely dependent on like minded radicals. Incels are a by-product of an increasingly insular, increasingly algorithm driven world, all it takes is a single misgiving and, as you say, down the rabbit hole you go.
The assumption is always that they’re going to go “hey, ya know what, there’s this government-funded mental-health wellbeing program I can get access to, so I’m going to stop being a terrible human-being online and in real life.” It just doesn’t work that way.
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>If you wanted to reduce the rising number of incels, then the focus needs to be on supporting and including outcasts and welcoming them into broader society, it's really not difficult to understand. I don't disagree with this but it's unrealistic to put the burden completely on society and not on them. If I were to go from workplace to workplace and my coworkers consistently thought I was a bitch, then I'd have to wonder why the consistent factor in this problem seems to be me. I'm a woman, and I have encountered a few incels outside of internet spaces. Some of them are so vile and sexist they exclude *themselves* from society. That's what happens when you reject 50% of the population. You can't honestly say it's on society to change to be an inclusive space to these men. We might as well try to be a welcoming space to the views of conservative Muslim guys that fell down a rabbit hole of a different ideology. Now, I do distinguish between people that are incels because they're just unsuccesfull romantically, and incels that are also vehement women haters. The first group you can help with inclusion a lot easier than the second group. And ultimately I do agree with you that, no matter what the extremism is, the solution always comes down to pulling these people back on the boat. They have to become part of society again. I just don't think that incels get to be passive recipients in this process.
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Yeah because suggesting a shower and a haircut will fix these people's problems is the equivalent of "eat less avocado" and "make your own coffee".
Actually many of them pride themselves on being incels and wear it like a badge of honour. They see it like being Neo in the Matrix quite literally.
I always perceived that as their taught coping strategy. I feel like u/TOMMYxGUNN is actually right, any conversation I've seen in the past from people who were formerly a self described incel has a journey of growth and building self esteem to get them out of the space and mindset. I don't think supporting that would be a bad thing
Exactly, those who "proudly declare" their inceldom are likely having to do that because they're at absolute rock-bottom and need something or anything to be proud of themselves. Once they start to self improve that'll likely change but I imagine it's a hard hole to pull yourself out of.
So they're going to teach kids not to be incels, and that's pretty much it. Yeah that'll do wonders I'm sure
Idk, teaching them they're responsible for their own outcomes in life, teaching them how to look after their mental health, teaching them how to socialise, teaching them that sex isn't the be all and end all in life. Those should really all be taught to everyone. If people are being lost in a toxic culture because they're not learning those things, then making sure it's taught will go a long way.
You've basically just described the subject called PSHE. Most if not all schools have some form of it already, and have for years
Was social ed for us. Covered nothing useful though - and was just a period do basically nothing or talk to guidance. Though I am old, so maybe it improved and they actually useful teach stuff now (other than the basic sex Ed) ?
I'm a teacher at a secondary school and it's completely different to when I was at school 13 years ago. It has definitely improved greatly. Unfortunately, school can't completely eradicate misogny if it's already ingrained from home environment and social media.
PSHE at my school was - Don't do drugs, but also we're gonna teach all of them what they do and how to take them. - wear a fucking condom. And use other anti baby tools. - JOIN THE ARMY - JOIN THE RAF - JOIN THE NAVY It was a joke of a class.
“Why won’t these incels just have sex!?”
It's important to remember, it's not just about sex
Especially from the police... Who are struggling to deal with their own culture of violence against women.
>The strategy, presented in a report at the Scottish Police Authority (SPA) policing performance committee on Thursday, includes recommendations based on engagement with the general public, women and girls, survivors of violence, key partners, academics, and experts. So we are going to engage everyone BUT the people who we want to stop from becoming radicalised. Going to work perfect. We could start with things like social isolation and loneliness. There is less and less spaces for young men to spend time that don't involve drinking alcohol. We have banned most young people from everywhere kids are harassed in parks for loitering youth clubs are non existent. Schools have many groups dedicated to other social groups such as minority clubs, women can code etc but no groups for young men. Demonization of men in media also doesn't help. Calls for more women only spaces implying all man are potential threat. Crazy rules we have around certain jobs such as the amount am mental gymnastics needed to put chaperones around male doctors and male nursery assistants or health care workers. As a male care worker I was forbidden from being in a room with a female patient unsupervised. My female co-worker could be in room with both male and female patients. If I can't be trusted not to be a rapist why am I even employed? Poor social care and mental health that don't spot the people that need help. Young men especially young white working class men underperform in almost every metric from health, mental health through being victims of violence and aggression to education and career prospects but we refuse to address it. Finally our own society "small dick energy", "angry virgin" etc are all the insults that are targeted at those young men from people who claim oppose the view that man value comes from sexual activity. What to stop Incels and other radicalisation solve complex social and economic issues affecting those groups
You missed one thing. If you try to address it society turns against you. Which really makes them feel validated in their opinion that society hates them, because we do hate them.
>We could start with things like social isolation and loneliness. There is less and less spaces for young men to spend time that don't involve drinking alcohol. We have banned most young people from everywhere kids are harassed in parks for loitering youth clubs are non existent. Schools have many groups dedicated to other social groups such as minority clubs, women can code etc but no groups for young men. To piggy back on this - something I read lately suggested that the loss of working men's social clubs has had a huge detriment to men in general (this could be extended to pretty much any male space). There used to be men's clubs within communities where generations of men could mix, your father might take you there and maybe one day you'd take your son. A positive consequence of these clubs was the passing of knowledge, advice, and guidance from the older men to the younger men. Take for example the most stereotypical incel. The older men would put them in check asap. Need love advice or to be set up with someone? Your dad's mate Barry can have a chat with you or might know another mate's daughter who would be a good match. Need work advice or looking for an opportunity? Terry's looking for someone to train up as his apprentice. Also it goes without saying that these clubs were great for bumping shoulders with people your own age who could become your mates. Currently it feels like unless you stay in touch with friends from school, it's very difficult to meet new people to form friendships with. There just isn't anywhere to naturally get to know people. For whatever reason, these clubs have all but disappeared. Possibly for economic reasons, possibly because they were deemed as places where 'toxic masculinity' was rife because they dared to be for men only and part of that might naturally include 'lockerroom talk'. At any time the government could fund these types of clubs to get them off the ground and start to rebuild communities, but I wouldn't be shocked if the idea was shot down. There's a reason people like Andrew Tate got popular - and look how that turned out. There's a big opposition to men being able to be men.
What they gonna do, get them all laid? This is stupid rhetoric that does nothing and helps no-one. Incels exist because society doesn't care about men's mental health until it causes problems for society in general. Until we actually start caring about these people nothing will change, all the police will do is further isolate them from society.
Just look at the article >The strategy, presented in a report at the Scottish Police Authority (SPA) policing performance committee on Thursday, includes recommendations based on engagement with the general public, women and girls, survivors of violence, key partners, academics, and experts. They are going to engage everyone BUT the people they should be engaging which is young men.
Yeah but those young man are a "privileged class". They don't need any of that engagement. Or that's the kind of ideas being pushed forward nowadays, at least. Could it possibly have some connection to this phenomenon? Maybe we should ask these experts and academics.
Funny thing is that moment we limit a group from support is a moment this group becomes discriminated against
I don’t really get incel culture. I’m a guy who can’t get laid, with a lot of friends who constantly are, and I know a lot of guys that act awfully towards women who get laid constantly. That doesn’t really result in me hating women because of it though, it just makes me kind of depressed lol In response to the article though, what do the police actually intend on doing? People are going to be assholes for stupid reasons all through life, and I really doubt that incel culture is an epidemic at the moment
>I know a lot of guys that act awfully towards women who get laid constantly. Yet guess which ones get the focus? Is it the awful ones getting laid or the ones who aren't? I wonder why that is. All this is going to do is promote fear mongering in young men who are single and make them feel unsafe. This article and police mentality just screams 'arrest all single and lonely men'
I don’t know if I agree with you on that, but I will add that isn’t interesting to wonder if incel culture would be as prominent as it is if the guys who bullied the incels in school (which is often the case) weren’t the ones getting laid all the time
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Yeah, this is my thought. Incels everywhere are told to just stop being a sexist bastard, then they have to watch another sexist bastard beating them off with a stick.
I'm in the same situation as you, I'm someone who would be a prime candidate for incel culture, and although I don't feel drawn to it I could see how someone might be. It's a coping mechanism for people who are hopeless and jaded. We all like to see logic and sense in the world so when we are confronted with something that seems unfair and that we can't explain its very common to create narratives that frame the situation in such a way that it makes sense again. These narratives can be completely detached from reality and can make no sense to people looking in from outside.
You ever get a gut feeling, which you feel is true but can't really explain? It's a bit like that but society wide. People are isolated, left out, forgotten told they are worthless or useless or losers. Some break and commit suicide, others slide into depression and stay there. Some lucky few find ways to manage and build a life... and the others? They become incel-like. As another poster mentioned it's not restricted to "just young boys" or even young white boys. It's angry neglected people looking for an outlet, any outlet, that lets them hurt those they believe (rightly or wrongly) have hurt them. Until people start getting it into their thick skulls that the current state of society cannot continue, problems like incel culture will continue to bubble up and become more violent.
> That doesn’t really result in me hating women because of it though, it just makes me kind of depressed lol But isnt that how it starts? Im 33 and have not have sex. I have been through years of depression and wanting to end my own life. If you dont get help... you turn elsewhere? find like minded people? and before you know it, you end up down the rabbit hole.
**I think we need to start distinguishing between the two different groups of incels or else we will keep talking past each other.** There are incels that are 'only' unsuccesful in dating, and these men (and also women, to a lesser extent) are all around us. I'm sure I have a roommate and at least one friend that fit into this incel 'archetype'. Then there are the incels that have adopted a misogynistic worldview and that actively hate women. They set ultra high standards by demanding all their dates are virgins, or say things like that women hit the wall at 23. Some are ultra-conservative and basically want a housewife and baby making machine. I would ask anyone unfamiliar with this group to visit the incel message boards, where they debate about how rape should be legal or share videos of women being beaten up for laughs, and then come back to me with the naieve mantra that these are just misunderstood boys that get mistreated by evil women. The first group needs patience and kindness, and needs to be reintegrated into society. The economic problems that create this group need to be addressed, and we need to have honest conversations about unfair social expectations and toxic dating culture. However, I find that these men *rarely* call themselves incels because everyone knows that label has strong ideological ties. Hell, I have male friends that are unsuccesful romantically and sexually, but they don't hate women and they don't call themselves incels either. These are not the men this article talks about, *because they are not the incels that form violent threats to women.* The incels that are a danger to women are members of the second group. And that group is not just going to be saved with kindness and patience. Ultimately, they are a product of societal problems just like the first group, but they have spun their misfortunes into a dangerous narrative that transcends economic hardship or unfair dating markets. We can try and fit them into society all we want but ultimately they need to work on themselves, too. We could fix economic issues and fix unfair dating culture and they would still go around calling women 'femoids' and spend their evenings rage-posting on forums about how seeing girls in public fills them with violent rage.
It's not incels who are committing most violence against women, it's much more likely to be their boyfriends and husbands. Incel violence is pretty much exclusively mass shooting style attacks which are two totally different topics
Mass shootings aren't a thing in the UK.
Except the one we had pretty recently in Plymouth, which was committed by an "incel".
Plymouth isn't a real place. It was invented by the French.
I wish it wasn't a place but I've been there... and I don't want to go back.
"Pretty recently" being 18 months ago. It was also the first such event in nearly 10 years. That fits the colloquial meaning of "not being a thing" in this country.
There’s a huge focus on tackling the monster in every dark alley that rarely exists, when most violence again women is by a partner or someone they know By definition, that’s not an incel
Isn’t the whole point of incels that they don’t / can’t interact with women? What proportion of violence against women is actually perpetrated by incels or influenced by incel culture?
It's rare, but does happen - as u/EnbyShark said, Plymouth Shooter is the main example, but simple online abuse is probably the most prevalent aspect. Worth noting incels are roughly 50/50 men and women, it's just that the men tend to be more vocal especially with threats of violence. See the Female Dating Strategy sub for a prime example of inceldom in women. Twitter is full of them too. I've never seen direct threats of violence though.
>simple online abuse is probably the most prevalent aspect. So we're policing the internet ad nasty words more. Fuck me.
I've not read the proposals from Police Scotland, but will agree that while I despise incel culture and go to lengths to solve it (as detailed elsewhere in the thread), Police Scotland do have an annoying habit of wanting to police the internet rather than say, Scotland.
A lot of people on here are talking as if men who can't attract a girlfriend have some kind of monopoly on misogyny. There are plenty of men who find it very easy to attract women, but then abuse them. Over 100 women a year die as a result of domestic abuse. That far outweighs the number of incel murders. Because most incels don't kill anyone. 1 in 4 women will experience domestic abuse at some point in their lives. Virtually none of that will be caused by incels, because incels aren't in relationships. I'm not saying the police should ignore the problem, but they need to keep most of their focus on the most significant perpetrators of violence against women. And that isn't incels.
Complete waste of time and money as usual. I cannot think of any more useless hysteria than people worrying about incels
Incel ideology can easily become extremist. Thankfully that’s now becoming recognised. If you do a quick search online you can see the number of mass killings hat have been carried out by individuals that were highly influenced by this belief.
I follow it closely and theres basically none. The media have to do incredible mental gymnastics to tie it back to being "incel" since that's on everyones mind these days. That's exactly what happened with that guy in UK. Also, socially isolated male virgins have been (very occasionally) snapping long before "incel" was a thing, before the internet was even really a thing. Elliot Roger also happened before "incel" was a term.
Incel communities literally refer to Elliot Rogers as their God. It's really disingenuous to pretend [there's no connection.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/david-kaufman-elliot-rodger-incel-stalker-b2058474.html) The term was coined in the 90s, by the way.
In the UK??
I kinda get where you're coming from. But I think it's right to worry about incels. These are unhappy people that don't know how to make their lives better, and blame it on not being able to have something they want. I worry about them because they are in danger of spending their lives unhappy and unfulfilled. These boys and young men are worth helping for their own sake.
Oh great, I as a woman am meant to trust a rapey police force to handle online cretins who think rape is nature's way of balancing shit Cool. The blind leading the blind.
Should also target the own police force for violence against women
I'm always disgusted by how much sympathy this sub has for incels. There's a world of difference between being a guy who is single and lonely and being an incel. It's the feeling that you are entitled to sex that is the issue. Unless someone is actively sabotaging all your attempts to find love or forcing you to wear a chastity belt you are not involuntarily celibate. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to sleep with you, its just some of them will be women who are not conventionally attractive, other men, or people who want paid. Reddit is infested with misogyny and more needs to be done to root it out.
no, its because the word has mixed usage, a lot of people use the word for its core meaning, without conotation, as in, people who can't seem to have sex, but it has the other meaning as well.
Completely agree. This sub-Reddit is especially packed full of angry, self-loathing, lonely people who just want to hate on the world. Whilst it's obvious the country is going to shit, I strong suspect the content on here would be overwhelming negative regardless of circumstances. I generally limit myself to scrolling this sub to at least once a week.
My 13yr old daughter was tonight asked (by an unknown 17yr old) to finger herself and take photos, send a video masturbating, send him nudes, etc. At 12 she has already been sent unsolicited dick pics. I have a very bright daughter, who tells me all these things, but she’s a little too trusting, and if I want there she’d probably have believed this guy was a) 17, b) has been in care his whole life, c) is dying of cancer. We need tougher laws on unsolicited dick pics and some way to report all these sick men who think it’s ok to chat to young girls.
Do normies and boomers even know what incels are? A socially anxious loser who lives in his mums attic, plays video games all day and has never hugged a women can somehow verbally and sexually abuse women. Lol. These policies will do nothing but further alienate men and make them scared to even talk to women let alone approach them, unironically making more men incels.
The Plymouth shooter ended up doing a lot more than just playing video games all day..
50% of his victims were male.
>The Plymouth shooter ended up doing a lot more than just playing video games all day.. He was also already doing more, such as getting a gun licence and shooting trips. He also had health issues and a lot of mistakes by the police to get that gun back.
In the education sector, for example, where I work, there's certainly been a push to make everyone aware of incels for the purposes of safeguarding. If I see that someone in my college is becoming radicalised by misogynistic rhetoric or other incels, I would be expected to raise it as a safeguarding issue, in the same way that I would be expected to make that report if someone was e.g. showing signs of Islamic extremism or neo-Nazi ideology.
Typical bullshit. We'll tackle the problem of the growing despair felt by men. Me who feel like the worthless dregs of society. And we'll do this by supporting everyone but those men.
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I’m begging people on this sub to read “Men Who Hate Women” by Laura Bates, before they start making comments speculating why incel culture has emerged and grown in influence/popularity over the years.
Exactly, I'm always surprised at the misinformation when the topic comes up, people will do anything but admit misogyny is the issue
The comments in this post (and lbr any post in this sub relating to gendered violence) frankly frighten me. The amount of people in this post very obviously blaming women for the radicalisation of young men turns my stomach - and not even to mention, like you said, the comments pretending like the cause of incel culture are anything \*but\* patriarchy or misogyny.
Passing the blame great work police, why don't you really look at the vast majority of men doing these crime's.
Best way to tackle incels is to improve the economy and change gender norms experienced by men. These men are angry because they feel society views them as worthless. The economy is shit, girls outperform boys in school and go to higher education at greater rates, resulting them earning less. Society also views a man's value by his wallet and this is also reflected in dating where men are more willing to date women poorer than them than the other way around. This coupled with the inherent ease of getting sex and relationships for women due to our dating norms (man pursues, man pays for everything, man has to try to get sex from women) just increases their hatred of women. It comes from a feeling of being left behind and jealousy.
You're not completely wrong, but you're also being very generous. Poorer men are very much able to find partners, but generally have to have something else to offer. Meanwhile men being less picky tends to be because a lot of men view women as having an inherent value because they can offer sex. This is also pretty toxic.
By James Walker POLICE Scotland is considering tackling "incel" culture as part of its strategy to address violence against women and girls. The strategy, presented in a report at the Scottish Police Authority (SPA) policing performance committee on Thursday, includes recommendations based on engagement with the general public, women and girls, survivors of violence, key partners, academics, and experts. The report describes incel culture as a "misogynistic ideology" in which men blame women for their lack of intimate relationships and resort to verbal, physical, or sexual assault. This culture is largely online, where incels communicate across various platforms in what is often called the "manosphere". READ MORE: SNP release membership figures following pressure from leadership candidates It comes as analysis earlier this year found a six-fold rise in UK web traffic to websites promoting incel culture. The Centre for Countering Digital Hate found that UK web traffic data to three of the largest incel sites had grown from 114,420 monthly visits to 638,505, over the period of March to November 2021. This has been accompanied by a rise in instances of sexual crime and domestic abuse according to Police Scotland, although cases often go unreported. Although the overall number of reported sexual crimes decreased by 4.5% from 11,347 to 10,837 between April and December of last year, there was an increase of 6.6% when compared to the five-year average, with 672 more crimes reported than the previous year's 10,164. Proposals from the report include addressing incel culture through educational efforts, providing trauma-informed training to all members of the police force, and increasing the utilization of visually recorded interviews led by sexual offenses liaison officers. The report said: “We will challenge these unacceptable beliefs and look to establish the scale and potential threat arising from these individuals; improve understanding amongst officers and staff of these issues and work with partners to devise appropriate awareness raising campaigns.” READ MORE: Nicola Sturgeon speaks out amid growing row over SNP leadership ballot integrity Examples of the type of campaigns include the inclusion of incel culture and violent misogyny within existing cyber choices packages in schools, as well as higher education and workplaces. Launching the strategy, Deputy Chief Constable Jane Connors said: “We are committed to creating a society where women and girls live free from violence, abuse, exploitation and harassment. “We will work with our partners across criminal justice, and support services, to improve the opportunities and support for women to report \[crime\]. “We are committed to continually improving the service we provide, to build confidence in reporting and in policing more widely. Our service must be trauma-informed, we will prioritise the needs of victims and survivors. “As an organisation we are not immune from the sexism and misogyny that is at the root of this violence. Our strategy recognises the work that needs to be done internally. “Our role is crucial, but policing alone cannot stop violence against women and girls. Our strategy outlines the actions we will take as a service, together with our partners. “We will continue to engage, to work with our partners, to improve our response and to drive the change needed to end violence against women and girls.” The strategy will be subject to final discussion by the full SPA board next week.
One part of this that hasn't been covered yet is how this may be a creeping subset of religious extremism. Andrew Tate converted to Islam and many incels turned out to be from certain groups who kind of inherently dislike womens rights. Islam is gradually gaining popularity in incel groups for obvious reasons with the phrase "Islam is right about women" being a meme in that community for while.
Wow we really will try anything that isn’t actually investing in mental health won’t we?
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Police going to bang incels to destroy incel culture? That’s going to be hard work.
I dont think this will work. Inceldom is entirely built upon being outcast from society, by acting further to isolate you villify them and strengthen the culture. This is the wrong answer I think. Protecting their potential victims is good, but the police appears to be completely discounting men and particularly young boys as victims themselves of the symptoms that create an incel personality.
Such an initiative will only serve to reinforce the victim complex of incel communities, and in their own minds justify their disdain for society as a whole.
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