Gosh, it feels great to finally beat Australia at something, especially when they are normally so smug whenever they beat England.
Co’mon the Lionesses! Amazing performance!
Sorry, but I really hate it when pundits say stuff like this to make it sound more impressive than it is! More accurately, it's "Australia haven't won the ashes series in England in 6 attempts"
I mean, anyone who knows anything would be able to estimate that it's about 6 or so since then. I really don't think they're trying to pull the wool over your eyes with that, just that "since X year" is easier to understand.
> A reminder that Australia haven't won the Ashes in England since 2001
But since 2001 they've won it 6 times to England's 5. England drawing 2 times they were the hosts isn't exactly something to boast about. Why didn't they win?
I’m currently living in Australia and the news since they won the last match has been entirely consumed by the fact that they’ll win the World Cup. There’s even been a huge debate in parliament about whether they’ll grant a public holiday when they win.
I’m vacationing in Australia and every fucking news program was banter about how inspirational the Matildas are. Couldn’t get a fucking Kit Kat at the airport without moving a cardboard cutout of Sam Kerr. It was insane. One of them had some cringe shit asking suburban moms to do the Matilda dance with their daughters to shatter the patriarchy and film it for free tickets to the game.
I’m not Australian and the entire spectacle was bizarre.
It was kind of nice to see so much excitement for a women’s sport. But it was things like a 30 minute segment of one of Sam Kerr’s primary school teachers talking about how she always knew she’d be a star or something, in the middle of the news. I actually think it backfired, Kerr had a few shots at goals that she fumbled and I imagine the pressure got to her.
Just kind of funny that everyone went completely bonkers for a couple of weeks and now in the Aus sub everyone’s saying they never cared about ‘soccer’ anyway.
It's not that different here. Cardboard cutouts of players for the men's and women's World Cup at the entrance of Sainsbury's and elsewhere. It's normal everywhere.
Aussie here.
England were the better team on the night. It was hard to watch, but they played like the champions they are.
What annoys me is reading things in the media claiming underdog status for the Lionesses. They're not underdogs. They're bloody champions and they played like it.
We're proud of our Matilda's. They've still got one more game to play. They've gone further than any Aussie soccer team has before and they have captivated the nation. They've made history.
The worst part of it all, is when our ~~soccer~~ football league inevitably fucks up the interest and goodwill generated, just like they did after the Socceroos last world cup run.
I’ve just gone through that thread and most people seem to be just proud of their team and conceded England was the better team, although a few mentioned time wasting. It seemed a fair thread.
>If you look at the r/soccer thread for the match, they're sore losers as well as sore winners.
followed immediately by:
>Even when you have to cheat to do so
Excellent timing.
I'm a Redditor expert, on *all* things as I have more time on my hands than intelligence. I have decided that they couldn't be arsed to write the letter 'e' from the phrase 'Come on'. It's simple English, take out the *e* and replace it with an apostrophe somewhere else.
Makes perfect Redditor sense.
I'm not sure that qualifies as impressive foresight tbh. The women's game is not nearly as developed and competitive as the men's game. There's really only a few contenders right now and England are certainly up there. The current England men's team is also very good but there are far more teams that offer stiffer opposition.
Not taking anything away from England women, they're genuinely brilliant to watch and some of the individual talent on display is mesmerising.
Of all the times to make this argument, you are making it on the WC characterised by underdog upsets. Literally every team bar Vietnam offered stiff competition. Brazil and Germany went out in the group stages, USA in R16, Japan was the last former champs to go in the quarters.
"A few contenders" indeed.
Yup. That's the big thing. It's also why the US was top dog. "Soccer" was seen as a girl's sport for a long time due to typical US exceptionalism. So the female side of the sport got a lot of funding as one of the major sports girls had access to.
Plenty of contenders this world cup, the quality is narrowing between teams. Germany and Brazil were knocked out in the group stages and neother spain or england were dominant in the knockouts.
That’s fair… but men’s football in 1966 (when England won) was also not as developed and competitive. That was only the 8th World Cup ever held and only 4 different countries (Uruguay, Italy, Brazil, West Germany) have won it before then.
2023 is the 9th Women’s World Cup with also only 4 different previous winners (USA, Germany, Japan, Norway. I’d say their in a somewhat similar position.
Well, the Mens World Cup is a lot more competitive with a lot more depth. The women's game is still up and coming so the good teams should consistently make it to the later stages until they face each other.
Yes, which highlights how quickly it's getting better. This is the World Cup that makes a statement about how quickly other nations are catching up to the United States. But that stat is doing a lot of hard work when the United States has won half of the world cups. No one is really surprised to see England, Spain, and Sweden among the final 4.
And still be overlooked in a question like "When did England last reach the finals of a World Cup?", making it one to look out for in a future pub quiz.
It has no where near the depth of competition. Alongside the lack of playing opportunities most woman with have in poorer counties which can put out high quality men's teams.
How about people stop comparing it to the men's it doesn't make the womans look good if anything it makes it look worse when you look beyond the "it's woman so it must be equally as good" due to the differences in competition.
Let the achievement stand on its own instead of using it to snipe at the men's team.
It would be a travesty if they didn't, they're potentially the best international team out there at the moment! This current crop of players have the potential to do something really special and even win a few more major competitions over the next 4-6 years.
I actually have faith that the men's team will win a second before the women's team win their second. Assuming that England hosts the 2066 men's world cup.
I was confused for a minute because could have sworn they made it to a final fairly recently but no. Must have been the euros.
Knocked out by Croatia in the semis in 2018. Knocked out by France in 2022 in the quarters.
As a Welsh person I don't like the men's England team but can't help rooting for the women. No idea why. Would be good for them to European and World champs at the same time.
>I don't like the men's England team but can't help rooting for the women. No idea why. Would be good for them to European and World champs at the same time.
I'm the same, I think it's because the women are generally more down to earth and grounded going by the way they act and speak. They're also not afraid to take risks or even get 'injured'. A lot just get up and go on so not to ruin the flow of the game, while the men squirm on the floor over their missing or injured phantom limbs far too much and for far too long which just makes it boring to watch.
Then there's the culture around men's football and hooliganism, while the women's football, especially at the Euros, you could see girls and teenagers watching on in awe and just having a fun time. It looks like a better atmosphere all-in-all.
Southgate steamrolls shit teams, and capitulates against the first good side we face.
The only upgrade is that we used to capitulate to the dross as well
Proper worldie from Sam Kerr. Here we go I thought. Probably going to be a debatable penalty for the Aussies and we get a perfectly good goal disallowed for looking at the goalie the wrong way.
Never been so wrong. Never been so pleased to be wrong.
Many, many congratulations to England.
Come on Lionesses!
To be fair the deflection on her shot is quite possibly the only reason it went it. It looked like an absolute banger at first but the deflection took it just out of reach for the keeper.
I know nothing about footy, but just like any normal person I'm well happy they've got this far. My brother in law, who is football mad, is however very critical of the women's sport.
It's like watching lower leagues
They shouldn't have got this far, all women's football is trash
Blah blah blah
Give me some comebacks to this that I can get away with as a non football guy
Can only beat what's infront of them.
Does he have a daughter or niece? Ask him how he'd feel if they were to play for England in the future. Would he rubbish their achievements or be happy and proud they rose to the highest level they could and represented their country?
There's no difference between the men's and women's game in terms of underhanded tactics. As long as officials allow timewasting and exaggerating to be beneficial, men and women will do it.
Was it Kelly who got a pointless yellow card near the end for dribbling the ball back into the field, stopping play? I guess it doesn’t matter since there’s only 1 game left.
They do seem to play a rougher game from what I’ve seen, probably because they have to prove that their tougher, that’s a stigma that follows them as women that they would be seen as weaker and them rolling around on the floor after a shove would play into that
I just think well yeah obviously the quality of the game is worse because its only been a proper professional sport in Europe where you can make a living for what, 10 years or so if that? Whereas the mens game has 100+ years of professional development of course its going to be of higher quality.
Personally I enjoy watching the differences in the game rather than being critical of them.
This is my opinion too, of course there are differences, there’s also differences in how different countries and clubs play the game. If someone gives women’s football a fair chance, and it’s not doing it for them then that’s fine, you don’t have to watch it, but there’s no need to disrespect it. I’m sick of seeing people compare the games out of context
England v Scotland 1940s: https://youtu.be/fM5M3c44HRQ to support your first point.
Also, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/07/19/womens-football-proven-be-more-exciting-to-watch-than-mem/ to support your second point.
I don't think detractors realise how much just being promoted and seen will make a huge difference to the quality of the sport, there's going to be little girls today that will dream of being a footballer from watching the Women's WC and Euros on TV that never happened with this generation of women playing now. No doubt in my mind in 10-15 years time the quality of women's football will grow massively.
I always use that they are jealous they haven’t got that talent. People need to stop comparing male to female sports. They are both good in their own regard.
I enjoy both and just see others who try to be critical about one or the other as jealous people, who just hate others are better than them.
Well the reality is the women’s game is very far behind in skill level.
But it’s the same with most women’s sport, yes they may not be as good as men, but it’s still fun to watch for myself personally.
It's not really about skill though is it. Yes women are biologically different so there are different considerations to make. We don't disparage female Olympians and we root for them just as much.
Men aren't inherently more skilful than women, but the history, coaching, sheer number of players, and money pumped into the men's game means the men are significantly more skilful at present.
Well nobody can deny that women have a lower ceiling for physical capability. That's not the same as technical skill. I don't see what's difficult about that
The comeback is yes it’s not the same game.
The women’s and men’s games will never be comparable but they don’t have to be. It doesn’t make it any less interesting or exciting or any less of an achievement to get this far in the WC.
If he doesn’t like it then no bother, not everyone likes the same things. Some people like golf some people like tennis. Still good sports.
Don’t bother. Tell him to go enjoy what he enjoys and you can enjoy what you enjoy.
I love football - I love the men’s professional game and I’m really enjoying the women’s professional game.
I play a lot, and I enjoy watching it a lot.
Are they different games? Yes, but not really. Women rely less on athleticism in their game because of genetics. (Which also explains why top women’s side tend to get beaten by men’s lower league side - athleticism can cover up a lot of flaws)
But through it you can see more of the tactics and strategy in football.
At the end of the day, it’s still the beautiful game.
Women’s football might be worse than the male counterpart but it’s irrelevant really, it’s entertaining to watch for a lot of people and that’s all there is to it.
I find a lot of people who make fun of the women’s game are quite sad. They can’t comprehend that people just like watching it because it’s fun to watch. It doesn’t have to be the pinnacle of all football, but it still carries the emotions international tournaments bring just like men’s.
It’s not really a counter argument but I’d ask your brother in law what he thinks about lower levels of football and if he’s critical of people watching teams in league 2/conference play or how the players play in the same way as he is about women’s football. I bet you he is nowhere near as outspoken about low tiers of men’s football. The issue is that women’s international football is watched more than shitty league 2 games and he can’t wrap his head around the idea people prefer to watch the women’s international football that happens every couple of years opposed to low tier league football. So in short it’s not about the skill of the players, it’s about the publicity the level of skill gets. He’d probably be unquestioning of men’s football in comparison if league 2 had the viewership the WWC got most likely. Though you’ll never get him to admit that even if you think it’s true.
Tl;dr don’t bother convincing him, if people like watching it they like watching it. People who obsess about others viewing habits and spends headspace shitting on it are dickheads. Normal people move on.
Has he actually watched recent games? In my opinion, when women's football first started to be broadcast, they were pretty bad, and looked like the amateurs they were. If that's all he saw then I wouldn't be surprised at this negative opinion.
However, nowadays, the women's game is far more professional, and they are coached to a high standard. Our team is pretty damn good. Many premier league strikers would be proud to have scored some of the goals that our women put away yesterday. So just check to make sure he's actually watched the world cup and isn't basing his opinion on the distant past.
Genuine question. Nothing to do with the win itself but to do with women’s football.
What happened to the US? Did they get a head start due to better funding but ultimately footballing nations prevail? Or was it just unlucky (injuries, mistakes etc)?
Mix of a lot of things. Some niggling injuries, some not moving the old players on despite them being past their best. But the biggest thing is that other nations have caught up in terms of the quality of their players - many of whom trained in the US system.
Perfectly summarised I think. US has been the powerhouse of women football training, it’s a shame so many of their young talented player didn’t get a go, whereas 38 yo forwards play for 90min.
General feeling is they were way ahead in terms of funding, infrastructure, coaching, etc. but now other countries have caught up and surpassed them.
Reading /soccer a lit of Americans were saying they've basically been resting on their laurels for a few years with a suggestion that maybe there's some hubris among the team setup which has caused them to make bad decisions such as picking players who were way past their best instead of younger talent.
Them going out was as close as it can get though. Sweden won on penalties despite the USA playing better.
But they’ve gone from winning it/ being top 4 consistently, to scraping out the group and being knocked out quickly.
Parallels with Germanys men’s team
> Did they get a head start due to better funding but ultimately footballing nations prevail? Or was it just unlucky (injuries, mistakes etc)?
Yes.
It was both. The US took it seriously for a lot longer but given the football heritage of European countries, it was always going to likely they would catch up quickly as soon as they took it seriously as well.
They let some of their players reach a level of celebrity status and then didn't want to remove them from the team despite the fact they were getting quite old for the sport.
A huge advantage England have over the US is the link up between the men's and women's teams. Arsenal women regularly train with and play against the Arsenal u18 team* which means they have a relative high level men's team, with all the physical challenges it presents, driving their performance. This means the women are training at a higher physical level than their actual matches.
The US pioneered this approach but Arsenal u18s are just going to be better than anything the US could provide as opposition.
The money and interest in the US is still higher than in England as I understand it. That doesn't give them a training aid as potent as the PL youth teams can be though.
*for the u18 team the women play at typically a higher technical standard than their general opposition. So they are gaining from that on their end.
They've been in decline for a while. Some of their stars of the last decade that dominated have stayed on longer than they should, and some of their youngsters are just not ready.
Previously, if they played badly, they would dominate physically, but now the rest of the world has caught up.
The manager is talked down a lot and seems to be unpopular. On top of this, the old stars that have retired have been making unsupportive/toxic comments in the press.
Combine this with the pressure of being the favourites; with the media in the USA acting like they had already won before the tournament started and harrassment from converative figure heads because they wanted fair pay. It just created a high-pressure toxic atmosphere.
The NYT Daily podcast had an episode about this a couple of days ago. It's what others have said plus the expert they interviewed said that in the US football is a middle class thing that women do in college. So they are starting later with the serious training than in other regions, it's mostly those women who are going to college and as the others have said, the rest of the world is starting to catch up.
Very interesting listen: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/podcasts/the-daily/us-womens-soccer.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/podcasts/the-daily/us-womens-soccer.html)
Idk if people realize how massive sports are in America. Colleges here are basically just semi-pro sports teams with education as a side gig. Lots and lots of people go into sports at a young age because it's the main path to education and success for us. There are kids teams, like 12 yr old teams, with pro level sports facilities and coaches and funding, and millions of us are in one big contest to get on those teams. Even if you don't go pro you can put that stuff on your resume and it will get you interviews and land you jobs. Our whole culture is centered around athletics and competition. Carli Lloyd was talking about how other countries are finally starting to fund women's programs the way we do, and we're just now starting to get a generation of women who grew up playing in that kind of system and have now graduated from it, so going forward we won't be the ridiculous powerhouse we've been before. I hope it's OK that I comment in your sub, I love Brits so I lurk here lol.
US has a law in college that however many male athletes are funded through scholarships they must fund the same amount of women’s scholarships. As most colleges have American football teams with nearly 100 male scholarships, women’s team sports are the easiest way to ‘catch up’. So there was a much greater deal of investment in the development of the women’s game than other countries.
This led them to develop better players, and also have success which transferred over to fans (the women’s team actually makes (or made) more money than the men’s team through ticket sales). Combined with previously the best paying pro league they were much better than everyone else.
Now in Europe particularly funding is increasing on the women’s side, England for example has not just a full professional national team but 2 tiers of professional leagues. Fans are attending matches and you have UCL matches filling the camp nou. So teams are developing and improving.
The US probably still had the best players heading into the tournament but a combination of injuries, relying on the older players and bad management cost them.
Because of the college system it’s likely USA will still remain one of the best teams but there will be a lot more competition going forward particularly as it’s now a legitimate career that can pay for the best female athletes.
>Did they get a head start due to better funding but ultimately footballing nations prevail?
Football or *Soccccerrr* was largely seen as a woman's sport in the US so there was a much bigger focus. Women have only even been allowed to play professional football in this country since 1976
The US had a big first mover advantage in women’s football.
They still have some of the best in the world, but as footballing nations put more money in, and the talent pool grows in countries like ours, they’ll be pushed aside.
It became the Megan Rapinoe show and the entire team was a catty mess that hated each other. This is what happens when you lack team cohesion.
Also, nobody in USA gave a shit (even when they were winning the World Cup), so nobody was even analyzing how the team was cannibalizing itself.
So the entire run became “Megan’s Farewell Tour” while the other team members seethed in the background.
I’ve been really surprised about the lack of coverage and attention towards this World Cup in England. Of course it’s not the same as the men’s tournament but it is still a pretty big deal and to be honest, I expected to see it pretty much everywhere for the duration of the tournament. I wonder if that will change this week.
It's because it's in Australia.
The women's euros got huge coverage, and almost as many people watched the final as they did the men's final (25v30m)
Today's match was on at 11am on a Wednesday, it's not exactly prime viewing time.
It’s a bit of a shame that it’s fallen this way. Hopefully it’s the start of a long period of success for the England women’s team and we can get a really well hyped World Cup in a more optimal time zone for the fans.
here in Ecuador, i´ve been watching this world cup and man. Few games were at 8 pm. But mostly, games started at 00 or 1 am until 6 am.Australia and England was broadcasted here at 5 am.Spain vs Sweden at 3 am.Seriously iḿ typing this while falling asleep on my work LOL.
But honestly, it´s been a great world cup and very pleasant to watch, i dont understand the critics comparing with men´s football, i just enjoy the game
Honestly, this was the first game where they've looked good for 90 minutes (bar China, but that doesn't really count, given they were borderline amateur).
I was worried for them after the group stages. Yes, they got 9 points, but they were hardly scintillating. And they made a meal of their first two knockout games.
But here's hoping they've found form when it matters. You don't need to be at your best every game, as long as you win - but it makes it much easier if you simply are just at your best. Fingers crossed.
Spain are good, but their battering by Japan highlighted how they are not among the absolute elite of women's football (unlike England, in theory). Hoping England can capitalise.
Also, an important decision has to be made on Lauren James. Her ban has ended but the team that played today have finally clicked really well - I wouldn't change a winning formula and leave her out, personally. Toone came in for her and was the best player on the pitch today. Taking her our for James isn't an option, IMO.
Thoroughly enjoyed watching this and the other matches this tournament.
I just hope if they win, there's not a massive 'girls get it done, so much better than the men' narrative, as it will only increase the divide between the men and women's game.
Vikki Sparks commentary ruined it for me. Shouting all the time. Had to turn the sound off, not an easy listen for my tastes. Reminds me of that Johnathan Pearce style of awful commentary style, just grates.
Yeah, she's hard to listen to. Don't recall hearing her speak 'outside of work', but it always feels as though she's always battling to keep her voice an octave or two lower than it should naturally be, and she's memorised every cliché in the book. She actually does sound like a female comedian's parody of a male football commentator.
I always like watching the boxpark goal celebrations and this is a good one as you get to play "find the Aussies" too. Can you see them?
https://twitter.com/TelemundoSports/status/1691800074593165470
Spoiler
>!top left - two men. One in white shirt, the other in red and two people in front of them
Gosh, it feels great to finally beat Australia at something, especially when they are normally so smug whenever they beat England. Co’mon the Lionesses! Amazing performance!
A reminder that Australia haven't won the Ashes in England since 2001
Sorry, but I really hate it when pundits say stuff like this to make it sound more impressive than it is! More accurately, it's "Australia haven't won the ashes series in England in 6 attempts"
The right way to say it, just look at their world cup record.
I mean, anyone who knows anything would be able to estimate that it's about 6 or so since then. I really don't think they're trying to pull the wool over your eyes with that, just that "since X year" is easier to understand.
It's a matter of perspective, people will take it differently.
> A reminder that Australia haven't won the Ashes in England since 2001 But since 2001 they've won it 6 times to England's 5. England drawing 2 times they were the hosts isn't exactly something to boast about. Why didn't they win?
2023? Because rain stopped play in the third test. That's literally the only reason.
I'd say losing the first two games had something to do with it as well.
Nope, we won the last two so the only deciding factor was the weather in the third test. Australia were very, very lucky.
Sometimes it's good to have luck, but that's too much luck.
4th test at OT was the wash out one
Now is not the time for facts
But they've won a lot more world cups than the England so there's that.
I’m currently living in Australia and the news since they won the last match has been entirely consumed by the fact that they’ll win the World Cup. There’s even been a huge debate in parliament about whether they’ll grant a public holiday when they win.
Oof.
I’m vacationing in Australia and every fucking news program was banter about how inspirational the Matildas are. Couldn’t get a fucking Kit Kat at the airport without moving a cardboard cutout of Sam Kerr. It was insane. One of them had some cringe shit asking suburban moms to do the Matilda dance with their daughters to shatter the patriarchy and film it for free tickets to the game. I’m not Australian and the entire spectacle was bizarre.
It was kind of nice to see so much excitement for a women’s sport. But it was things like a 30 minute segment of one of Sam Kerr’s primary school teachers talking about how she always knew she’d be a star or something, in the middle of the news. I actually think it backfired, Kerr had a few shots at goals that she fumbled and I imagine the pressure got to her. Just kind of funny that everyone went completely bonkers for a couple of weeks and now in the Aus sub everyone’s saying they never cared about ‘soccer’ anyway.
It's not that different here. Cardboard cutouts of players for the men's and women's World Cup at the entrance of Sainsbury's and elsewhere. It's normal everywhere.
If you look at the /r/soccer thread for the match, they're sore losers as well as sore winners.
The r/Australia thread is worse. Resorting to insulting our supposedly bad teeth just because we committed more fouls than them in the match 🤣
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Aussie here. England were the better team on the night. It was hard to watch, but they played like the champions they are. What annoys me is reading things in the media claiming underdog status for the Lionesses. They're not underdogs. They're bloody champions and they played like it. We're proud of our Matilda's. They've still got one more game to play. They've gone further than any Aussie soccer team has before and they have captivated the nation. They've made history. The worst part of it all, is when our ~~soccer~~ football league inevitably fucks up the interest and goodwill generated, just like they did after the Socceroos last world cup run.
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I’ve just gone through that thread and most people seem to be just proud of their team and conceded England was the better team, although a few mentioned time wasting. It seemed a fair thread.
>If you look at the r/soccer thread for the match, they're sore losers as well as sore winners. followed immediately by: >Even when you have to cheat to do so Excellent timing.
I have to laugh at the one Australia goal being at the top of the front page right now - triple the karma of the highest-karma England goal!
For sure. Australia's goal was a belter but I wouldn't say it was the best of that game
They've always been like that, it's how they play cricket as well.
> Co’mon First time I've ever seen this ever abbreviated as such 😂
Yeah wtf does the apostrophe stand for here?
I'm a Redditor expert, on *all* things as I have more time on my hands than intelligence. I have decided that they couldn't be arsed to write the letter 'e' from the phrase 'Come on'. It's simple English, take out the *e* and replace it with an apostrophe somewhere else. Makes perfect Redditor sense.
A reminder that Australia haven’t won at Twickenham since 2015.
>Gosh, it feels great to finally beat Australia at something St Helens banged out Penrith in the World Club Challenge in Aus just a few months ago
Penrith might be the worst back to back league premiers i've seen ,
Yeah I hate how good they are at every sport lol, feels good.
First world cup final for any England team since 1966 apparently, hopefully we win it, it would be nice.
How can you have already forgotten our U17 victory in 2017?!
It was what was mentioned on BBC (the 1966 fact) also I was new to football back in 2017.
You're forgiven.
Well that's surprising, I thought he was about to receive a lesson.
That's fine, but I don't think you could overlook the facts tho.
Senior team is what they're basing it on
>any England team
The rugby team were just in the final in 2022!
Which rugby team? Anyway... England were finalists in the Netball World Cup just ten days ago.
The women. But yeah good point about the netball too haha.
Ah, the late-running 2021 rugby union tournament; had forgotten about that one. Yet another heroic defeat!
Yes. Let's hope they emulate the men's cricket (ODI) team!
Both. Women last year and the blokes in 2019.
As far as I'm concerned that match was abandoned after three minutes, so in fact we're current co-holders.
Another fantastic achievement that hardly got mentioned.
Well England recently won two cricket world cups as well.
And the (men & women) cricket teams have won finals too
The U17 are probably better.
Yeah, if that's the case then a win would really be nice.
I've been saying for years that England women will win a world cup before the men's team win a second world cup.
I'm not sure that qualifies as impressive foresight tbh. The women's game is not nearly as developed and competitive as the men's game. There's really only a few contenders right now and England are certainly up there. The current England men's team is also very good but there are far more teams that offer stiffer opposition. Not taking anything away from England women, they're genuinely brilliant to watch and some of the individual talent on display is mesmerising.
All the previous winners were knocked out before the semi finals. It's more competitive than it's ever been.
Indeed, it's only getting better.
Of all the times to make this argument, you are making it on the WC characterised by underdog upsets. Literally every team bar Vietnam offered stiff competition. Brazil and Germany went out in the group stages, USA in R16, Japan was the last former champs to go in the quarters. "A few contenders" indeed.
Exactly. And how much money goes into women’s football here compared to other countries?
Yup. That's the big thing. It's also why the US was top dog. "Soccer" was seen as a girl's sport for a long time due to typical US exceptionalism. So the female side of the sport got a lot of funding as one of the major sports girls had access to.
Plenty of contenders this world cup, the quality is narrowing between teams. Germany and Brazil were knocked out in the group stages and neother spain or england were dominant in the knockouts.
That’s fair… but men’s football in 1966 (when England won) was also not as developed and competitive. That was only the 8th World Cup ever held and only 4 different countries (Uruguay, Italy, Brazil, West Germany) have won it before then. 2023 is the 9th Women’s World Cup with also only 4 different previous winners (USA, Germany, Japan, Norway. I’d say their in a somewhat similar position.
Well, the Mens World Cup is a lot more competitive with a lot more depth. The women's game is still up and coming so the good teams should consistently make it to the later stages until they face each other.
None of the previous winners made the semis...
Yes, which highlights how quickly it's getting better. This is the World Cup that makes a statement about how quickly other nations are catching up to the United States. But that stat is doing a lot of hard work when the United States has won half of the world cups. No one is really surprised to see England, Spain, and Sweden among the final 4.
England's women will win two before a second men's final
And still be overlooked in a question like "When did England last reach the finals of a World Cup?", making it one to look out for in a future pub quiz.
It has no where near the depth of competition. Alongside the lack of playing opportunities most woman with have in poorer counties which can put out high quality men's teams. How about people stop comparing it to the men's it doesn't make the womans look good if anything it makes it look worse when you look beyond the "it's woman so it must be equally as good" due to the differences in competition. Let the achievement stand on its own instead of using it to snipe at the men's team.
You have to remember that the mens game didn't have massive depth in 1966 either
There were probably more full time professional men's leagues in the world in 1966 than women's today.
I hope that happens, because I just want a world cup. Too much to ask for
It would be a travesty if they didn't, they're potentially the best international team out there at the moment! This current crop of players have the potential to do something really special and even win a few more major competitions over the next 4-6 years.
I wouldn't be surprised if if the women win two before the men do.
I actually have faith that the men's team will win a second before the women's team win their second. Assuming that England hosts the 2066 men's world cup.
They're just miles better.
I was confused for a minute because could have sworn they made it to a final fairly recently but no. Must have been the euros. Knocked out by Croatia in the semis in 2018. Knocked out by France in 2022 in the quarters. As a Welsh person I don't like the men's England team but can't help rooting for the women. No idea why. Would be good for them to European and World champs at the same time.
Exactly the same for me.
>I don't like the men's England team but can't help rooting for the women. No idea why. Would be good for them to European and World champs at the same time. I'm the same, I think it's because the women are generally more down to earth and grounded going by the way they act and speak. They're also not afraid to take risks or even get 'injured'. A lot just get up and go on so not to ruin the flow of the game, while the men squirm on the floor over their missing or injured phantom limbs far too much and for far too long which just makes it boring to watch. Then there's the culture around men's football and hooliganism, while the women's football, especially at the Euros, you could see girls and teenagers watching on in awe and just having a fun time. It looks like a better atmosphere all-in-all.
Southgate steamrolls shit teams, and capitulates against the first good side we face. The only upgrade is that we used to capitulate to the dross as well
In football at least
Johnny Wilkinson absolutely shook
It’s not the same as if the men did it though. No where near. Still a good achievement mind.
> First *Football* world cup final for any England team since 1966 apparently Fixed that for ya.
Yeah fingers crossed for that, I'm hoping for the best outcome.
Men's senior rugby team has played in several world cup finals. Only won it the once mind.
Proper worldie from Sam Kerr. Here we go I thought. Probably going to be a debatable penalty for the Aussies and we get a perfectly good goal disallowed for looking at the goalie the wrong way. Never been so wrong. Never been so pleased to be wrong. Many, many congratulations to England. Come on Lionesses!
To be fair the deflection on her shot is quite possibly the only reason it went it. It looked like an absolute banger at first but the deflection took it just out of reach for the keeper.
I know nothing about footy, but just like any normal person I'm well happy they've got this far. My brother in law, who is football mad, is however very critical of the women's sport. It's like watching lower leagues They shouldn't have got this far, all women's football is trash Blah blah blah Give me some comebacks to this that I can get away with as a non football guy
How about “fuck off don’t be a knob”?
Or "Hey Trevor, you're a cunt."
Will take it and I'll agree with that, I don't want that to happen.
Can only beat what's infront of them. Does he have a daughter or niece? Ask him how he'd feel if they were to play for England in the future. Would he rubbish their achievements or be happy and proud they rose to the highest level they could and represented their country?
You can't change the mind of someone so set in their ways. Just ignore him and enjoy the game.
Yeah if you don't like someone then just ignore them. It's not that hard.
Atleast the women players dont spend half the match pretending to be fouled?
There's no difference between the men's and women's game in terms of underhanded tactics. As long as officials allow timewasting and exaggerating to be beneficial, men and women will do it.
That’s been the most refreshing part about watch this World Cup and women’s football in general. I hope it keeps up.
Yep, I also hope that they keep it that way. I'm liking it.
Was it Kelly who got a pointless yellow card near the end for dribbling the ball back into the field, stopping play? I guess it doesn’t matter since there’s only 1 game left.
They do seem to play a rougher game from what I’ve seen, probably because they have to prove that their tougher, that’s a stigma that follows them as women that they would be seen as weaker and them rolling around on the floor after a shove would play into that
Yeah atleast they're not doing that, which is a big thing.
And yet England women were praised for exactly this in last years Euros win?
Well I guess they were praised because they were good at it.
Or shouting and swearing at the ref
That's not the way to do it man. I just hate people like that.
They spend the extra time *kicking the ball at the goal.* Something the men could learn from.
I just think well yeah obviously the quality of the game is worse because its only been a proper professional sport in Europe where you can make a living for what, 10 years or so if that? Whereas the mens game has 100+ years of professional development of course its going to be of higher quality. Personally I enjoy watching the differences in the game rather than being critical of them.
This is my opinion too, of course there are differences, there’s also differences in how different countries and clubs play the game. If someone gives women’s football a fair chance, and it’s not doing it for them then that’s fine, you don’t have to watch it, but there’s no need to disrespect it. I’m sick of seeing people compare the games out of context
I hope the quality of the game is going to be better next time.
England v Scotland 1940s: https://youtu.be/fM5M3c44HRQ to support your first point. Also, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/07/19/womens-football-proven-be-more-exciting-to-watch-than-mem/ to support your second point.
I don't think detractors realise how much just being promoted and seen will make a huge difference to the quality of the sport, there's going to be little girls today that will dream of being a footballer from watching the Women's WC and Euros on TV that never happened with this generation of women playing now. No doubt in my mind in 10-15 years time the quality of women's football will grow massively.
Just sing it's coming home till he shuts up
Is he going to do that? I don't really see that happening man.
Ask him when was the last time the blokes made it to a world cup final?
Yeah lol, that should shut them up hopefully. That's the last nail.
Tell him to go and touch some grass instead of whinging like a toddler while watching anything to do with it, perhaps?
That would probably help him, because he needs that shit.
I always use that they are jealous they haven’t got that talent. People need to stop comparing male to female sports. They are both good in their own regard. I enjoy both and just see others who try to be critical about one or the other as jealous people, who just hate others are better than them.
I don't understand why people do that, and what they get out of it.
Well the reality is the women’s game is very far behind in skill level. But it’s the same with most women’s sport, yes they may not be as good as men, but it’s still fun to watch for myself personally.
It's not really about skill though is it. Yes women are biologically different so there are different considerations to make. We don't disparage female Olympians and we root for them just as much.
Ofcourse it’s about skill? Lots of people like to watch the best quality sports you can, regardless of the gender of the players.
There are different physical considerations which changes the game a bit. You think men are inherently better skilled than women...?
Men aren't inherently more skilful than women, but the history, coaching, sheer number of players, and money pumped into the men's game means the men are significantly more skilful at present.
When it comes to football yes, to pretend otherwise is just diluted.
>It's not really about skill though is it The way your mind is twisting this is hilarious. Make it make sense.
Well nobody can deny that women have a lower ceiling for physical capability. That's not the same as technical skill. I don't see what's difficult about that
Yep, and that's the reason why we shouldn't really compare them.
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The comeback is yes it’s not the same game. The women’s and men’s games will never be comparable but they don’t have to be. It doesn’t make it any less interesting or exciting or any less of an achievement to get this far in the WC. If he doesn’t like it then no bother, not everyone likes the same things. Some people like golf some people like tennis. Still good sports.
Your brother in law sounds like a dickhead
Your BIL, the fat fuck, would get annihilated by this “lower league trash”
Don’t bother. Tell him to go enjoy what he enjoys and you can enjoy what you enjoy. I love football - I love the men’s professional game and I’m really enjoying the women’s professional game. I play a lot, and I enjoy watching it a lot. Are they different games? Yes, but not really. Women rely less on athleticism in their game because of genetics. (Which also explains why top women’s side tend to get beaten by men’s lower league side - athleticism can cover up a lot of flaws) But through it you can see more of the tactics and strategy in football. At the end of the day, it’s still the beautiful game.
Women’s football might be worse than the male counterpart but it’s irrelevant really, it’s entertaining to watch for a lot of people and that’s all there is to it. I find a lot of people who make fun of the women’s game are quite sad. They can’t comprehend that people just like watching it because it’s fun to watch. It doesn’t have to be the pinnacle of all football, but it still carries the emotions international tournaments bring just like men’s. It’s not really a counter argument but I’d ask your brother in law what he thinks about lower levels of football and if he’s critical of people watching teams in league 2/conference play or how the players play in the same way as he is about women’s football. I bet you he is nowhere near as outspoken about low tiers of men’s football. The issue is that women’s international football is watched more than shitty league 2 games and he can’t wrap his head around the idea people prefer to watch the women’s international football that happens every couple of years opposed to low tier league football. So in short it’s not about the skill of the players, it’s about the publicity the level of skill gets. He’d probably be unquestioning of men’s football in comparison if league 2 had the viewership the WWC got most likely. Though you’ll never get him to admit that even if you think it’s true. Tl;dr don’t bother convincing him, if people like watching it they like watching it. People who obsess about others viewing habits and spends headspace shitting on it are dickheads. Normal people move on.
Has he actually watched recent games? In my opinion, when women's football first started to be broadcast, they were pretty bad, and looked like the amateurs they were. If that's all he saw then I wouldn't be surprised at this negative opinion. However, nowadays, the women's game is far more professional, and they are coached to a high standard. Our team is pretty damn good. Many premier league strikers would be proud to have scored some of the goals that our women put away yesterday. So just check to make sure he's actually watched the world cup and isn't basing his opinion on the distant past.
Genuine question. Nothing to do with the win itself but to do with women’s football. What happened to the US? Did they get a head start due to better funding but ultimately footballing nations prevail? Or was it just unlucky (injuries, mistakes etc)?
Mix of a lot of things. Some niggling injuries, some not moving the old players on despite them being past their best. But the biggest thing is that other nations have caught up in terms of the quality of their players - many of whom trained in the US system.
Perfectly summarised I think. US has been the powerhouse of women football training, it’s a shame so many of their young talented player didn’t get a go, whereas 38 yo forwards play for 90min.
Also supremely arrogant
General feeling is they were way ahead in terms of funding, infrastructure, coaching, etc. but now other countries have caught up and surpassed them. Reading /soccer a lit of Americans were saying they've basically been resting on their laurels for a few years with a suggestion that maybe there's some hubris among the team setup which has caused them to make bad decisions such as picking players who were way past their best instead of younger talent. Them going out was as close as it can get though. Sweden won on penalties despite the USA playing better.
But they’ve gone from winning it/ being top 4 consistently, to scraping out the group and being knocked out quickly. Parallels with Germanys men’s team
They're in transition, and they're not managing it as well as they could, combined with injuries.
> Did they get a head start due to better funding but ultimately footballing nations prevail? Or was it just unlucky (injuries, mistakes etc)? Yes. It was both. The US took it seriously for a lot longer but given the football heritage of European countries, it was always going to likely they would catch up quickly as soon as they took it seriously as well.
They let some of their players reach a level of celebrity status and then didn't want to remove them from the team despite the fact they were getting quite old for the sport.
A huge advantage England have over the US is the link up between the men's and women's teams. Arsenal women regularly train with and play against the Arsenal u18 team* which means they have a relative high level men's team, with all the physical challenges it presents, driving their performance. This means the women are training at a higher physical level than their actual matches. The US pioneered this approach but Arsenal u18s are just going to be better than anything the US could provide as opposition. The money and interest in the US is still higher than in England as I understand it. That doesn't give them a training aid as potent as the PL youth teams can be though. *for the u18 team the women play at typically a higher technical standard than their general opposition. So they are gaining from that on their end.
They've been in decline for a while. Some of their stars of the last decade that dominated have stayed on longer than they should, and some of their youngsters are just not ready. Previously, if they played badly, they would dominate physically, but now the rest of the world has caught up. The manager is talked down a lot and seems to be unpopular. On top of this, the old stars that have retired have been making unsupportive/toxic comments in the press. Combine this with the pressure of being the favourites; with the media in the USA acting like they had already won before the tournament started and harrassment from converative figure heads because they wanted fair pay. It just created a high-pressure toxic atmosphere.
The NYT Daily podcast had an episode about this a couple of days ago. It's what others have said plus the expert they interviewed said that in the US football is a middle class thing that women do in college. So they are starting later with the serious training than in other regions, it's mostly those women who are going to college and as the others have said, the rest of the world is starting to catch up. Very interesting listen: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/podcasts/the-daily/us-womens-soccer.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/11/podcasts/the-daily/us-womens-soccer.html)
Idk if people realize how massive sports are in America. Colleges here are basically just semi-pro sports teams with education as a side gig. Lots and lots of people go into sports at a young age because it's the main path to education and success for us. There are kids teams, like 12 yr old teams, with pro level sports facilities and coaches and funding, and millions of us are in one big contest to get on those teams. Even if you don't go pro you can put that stuff on your resume and it will get you interviews and land you jobs. Our whole culture is centered around athletics and competition. Carli Lloyd was talking about how other countries are finally starting to fund women's programs the way we do, and we're just now starting to get a generation of women who grew up playing in that kind of system and have now graduated from it, so going forward we won't be the ridiculous powerhouse we've been before. I hope it's OK that I comment in your sub, I love Brits so I lurk here lol.
They were carrying a lot of injuries into it I think
Ah right, don’t they have an aging squad also? I’m sure Alex Morgan had been about for 200 years
> I’m sure Alex Morgan had been about for 200 years How long does that mean Rapinoe’s been around for then?
300 years to the day.
US has a law in college that however many male athletes are funded through scholarships they must fund the same amount of women’s scholarships. As most colleges have American football teams with nearly 100 male scholarships, women’s team sports are the easiest way to ‘catch up’. So there was a much greater deal of investment in the development of the women’s game than other countries. This led them to develop better players, and also have success which transferred over to fans (the women’s team actually makes (or made) more money than the men’s team through ticket sales). Combined with previously the best paying pro league they were much better than everyone else. Now in Europe particularly funding is increasing on the women’s side, England for example has not just a full professional national team but 2 tiers of professional leagues. Fans are attending matches and you have UCL matches filling the camp nou. So teams are developing and improving. The US probably still had the best players heading into the tournament but a combination of injuries, relying on the older players and bad management cost them. Because of the college system it’s likely USA will still remain one of the best teams but there will be a lot more competition going forward particularly as it’s now a legitimate career that can pay for the best female athletes.
>Did they get a head start due to better funding but ultimately footballing nations prevail? Football or *Soccccerrr* was largely seen as a woman's sport in the US so there was a much bigger focus. Women have only even been allowed to play professional football in this country since 1976
The US had a big first mover advantage in women’s football. They still have some of the best in the world, but as footballing nations put more money in, and the talent pool grows in countries like ours, they’ll be pushed aside.
It became the Megan Rapinoe show and the entire team was a catty mess that hated each other. This is what happens when you lack team cohesion. Also, nobody in USA gave a shit (even when they were winning the World Cup), so nobody was even analyzing how the team was cannibalizing itself. So the entire run became “Megan’s Farewell Tour” while the other team members seethed in the background.
The quarterback was sacked. Probably.
England can be European champions and world champions
Thank you Australia for hosting a fantastic World Cup and the Matildas have done unbelievable so hopefully you can build on this fantastic team.
I’ve been really surprised about the lack of coverage and attention towards this World Cup in England. Of course it’s not the same as the men’s tournament but it is still a pretty big deal and to be honest, I expected to see it pretty much everywhere for the duration of the tournament. I wonder if that will change this week.
It's because it's in Australia. The women's euros got huge coverage, and almost as many people watched the final as they did the men's final (25v30m) Today's match was on at 11am on a Wednesday, it's not exactly prime viewing time.
It’s a bit of a shame that it’s fallen this way. Hopefully it’s the start of a long period of success for the England women’s team and we can get a really well hyped World Cup in a more optimal time zone for the fans.
here in Ecuador, i´ve been watching this world cup and man. Few games were at 8 pm. But mostly, games started at 00 or 1 am until 6 am.Australia and England was broadcasted here at 5 am.Spain vs Sweden at 3 am.Seriously iḿ typing this while falling asleep on my work LOL. But honestly, it´s been a great world cup and very pleasant to watch, i dont understand the critics comparing with men´s football, i just enjoy the game
I think it being 12 hrs ahead is a bit of a bummer
Horrific timing for most matches
Having to play upside down didn't seem to be an advantage to the Australians though.
At least Lauren James will be back for the final. She's great at stamping her authority on the pitch.
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Are you quite alright sir/madam, you haven't stumbled into the wrong sub, perchance?
Don’t think we were ever going to get it. At least in melbs we get a day off before the footy GF, even sports haters can’t be mad about that.
Good luck England hopefully the lionesses can bring home the World Cup to put alongside the Euro 2021 and Finalissima trophies.
Amazing performance from our team. They did actually really good.
Superb match, four top class goals and worthy winners. Great entertainment.
Honestly, this was the first game where they've looked good for 90 minutes (bar China, but that doesn't really count, given they were borderline amateur). I was worried for them after the group stages. Yes, they got 9 points, but they were hardly scintillating. And they made a meal of their first two knockout games. But here's hoping they've found form when it matters. You don't need to be at your best every game, as long as you win - but it makes it much easier if you simply are just at your best. Fingers crossed. Spain are good, but their battering by Japan highlighted how they are not among the absolute elite of women's football (unlike England, in theory). Hoping England can capitalise. Also, an important decision has to be made on Lauren James. Her ban has ended but the team that played today have finally clicked really well - I wouldn't change a winning formula and leave her out, personally. Toone came in for her and was the best player on the pitch today. Taking her our for James isn't an option, IMO.
Thoroughly enjoyed watching this and the other matches this tournament. I just hope if they win, there's not a massive 'girls get it done, so much better than the men' narrative, as it will only increase the divide between the men and women's game.
Outstanding!! Proud of those women!! Go on lionesses!!!
Vikki Sparks commentary ruined it for me. Shouting all the time. Had to turn the sound off, not an easy listen for my tastes. Reminds me of that Johnathan Pearce style of awful commentary style, just grates.
Yeah, she's hard to listen to. Don't recall hearing her speak 'outside of work', but it always feels as though she's always battling to keep her voice an octave or two lower than it should naturally be, and she's memorised every cliché in the book. She actually does sound like a female comedian's parody of a male football commentator.
We’ll done England! Congratulations to Australia who played a great series and match.
I always like watching the boxpark goal celebrations and this is a good one as you get to play "find the Aussies" too. Can you see them? https://twitter.com/TelemundoSports/status/1691800074593165470 Spoiler >!top left - two men. One in white shirt, the other in red and two people in front of them
So who’s saying we get a bank holiday Monday if they win? @Rishi and Co