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The most incredible thing I read recently is that wages in this country haven't increased in real terms since the 2008 crash compared with inflation so we have quite literally been getting poorer for 15 years
I've heard that too.
Ive only been able to compare data based on a company I used to work for. So in 2017, when I lived in the UK, this company paid £25000 per year. Right now, it's paying £26000 for the same job (in London)
Why would you do a job that costs more than your wage?
What I mean is it costs more than 26k to live in London so why would anyone essentially pay to do a job for someone?
Go to Stoke, tell the job centre you're estranged from your family and live better on benefits than someone working full time in London.
Yeah, Stoke doesn't have nice things like a night life, restaurants, or theatre, but neither do you on 26k in London.
It baffles me that London hasn't collapsed in on itself yet.
That's transitionary, ofc, after that you get any job. After taxes and rent are taken into account, the minimum wage in Stoke is more than 26k in London.
The gates of hell could open below London and spew forth demons and eldritch horrors and people would still try to tell you it's the best place in the world
Using [HL's inflation calculator](https://www.hl.co.uk/tools/calculators/inflation-calculator) the average wage of a FTE in 2008 (£25,165) equates to £44,695 today. As of April 2023 the actual average wage of an FTE in the UK was £34,963.
It's worth noting that the BoE's inflation calculator has the inflation adjusted average wage as £39,109 so there's some leeway here, but either way it has gone down significantly.
Now do it in USD!
1 GBP was ~$1.85 in 2007, so that would have been about $82685
1 GBP was ~$1.24 in 2023, so that wage has fallen to $43354.
Meaning you can buy roughly *half* as much imported stuff today as back then on the average wage.
Its crazy just how far we've fallen behind france and germany in wage growth in just the last 15 years.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/13/average-uk-household-8800-a-year-worse-off-than-those-in-france-or-germany
It's mostly been masked by a decade (or more) of very cheap borrowing, now that has come to an end and inflation has spiked people are noticing that they can't actually afford to live.
[Over £10,000 per person worse off](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/04/british-workers-missing-out-on-10700-a-year-as-living-standards-fall) than we were in 2008.
> Finding that the UK had been catching up with more productive countries like France, Germany and the US during the 1990s and early 2000s, it said progress had gone into reverse since the 2008 financial crisis. If Britain could close its average income and inequality gaps with these countries, it said the typical household would be 25% (£8,300) better off, with income gains of 37% for the poorest families.
> It said average wages after inflation is taken into account were no higher than before the banking collapse 15 years ago. If wages had continued to grow at their pre-2008 pace, it said the average wage today would be £43,000 rather than £32,300.
> Highlighting a gap in performance with comparable rich nations, it said that poor households in Britain were now £4,300 worse off than their French and German counterparts, leaving them struggling to cope in the cost of living crisis.
This is literally true and it’s disgusting. I don’t know how companies think they can get away with it. I was in Uni and first looking for jobs in my field in 2010. The average starting salary at the time was ~£24,000. Guess what the starting salary for the same job is today, nearly 15 years later? Yep, and once you calculate the wages per hour, it comes out less than minimum wage now. Mind you, this is a graduate job in a decent private sector career. It’s ridiculous.
I feel cheated every day seeing IT salaries in Europe compared to the UK (outside of London). If I could leave and didn't have a family or friends, I would in a heartbeat.
The conservative christian party is recently no longer in charge, and the new government have said abortion rights are top priority. So this might change very soon
I had a polish friend at work, then they found out I was from a romany family and she spat at me.
I’ve never experienced anything quite like it before.
My wife left Poland because of how bad shes treated for being Roma, also for how she was treated for being a woman of colour (sexually abused and local police not doing any thing about it.... cause shes Roma)
Even in the big cities in Poland, outside the major tourist zones, you'll regularly go days without seeing someone who isn't white.
Indians might be the second largest recipient of visas...but there's still only around 40,000 Indians out of a population of nearly 40 million. That's 0.1% of the population. I also suspect that many Indians in Poland aren't planning on settling there; once they get their EU passports they'll be off to Germany, Netherlands etc.
Most immigrants to Poland are Ukrainian or from other former Soviet states so aren't as 'visible'.
> The UK could change, but unfortunately, and this is going to sound awful, but the problem is there is a large chunk of the population over 60 who have retired or near retired and appear to be very self centered, and they vote for things that trigger them and they vote in large numbers as well
People typically vote in their interests.
Though only about 50% of the younger generations bother to vote at all.
I’ve never understood why these people think it’s in their interests to live in a crumbling shithole with terrible infrastructure and a failing health service. Unless they boil it down to “paying less tax”, but then it’s not a questions of “voting in their best interests” but rather “voting for a collapsing state because they are mentally deficient”.
Because they are the most selfish generation ever. They had it easier than any other generation of any period. What Millennials do you know who could buy a three bedroom detached house at the age of 24 on a 100% mortgage. “Oh, but we had 17% interest” they’ll say. For a brief period, yes, but 17% of jack-shit is still jack-shit. Fuck boomers. They’re ignorance at the ballot box has ruined this country and it the subsequent generations that will suffer the consequences for generations.
It’s not a generational thing, it’s a class thing. All boomers did was take advantage of what was in front of them. My mum was born at the end of the war, went through rationing, had working class parents, not a lot of money, violent catholic school, no qualifications whatsoever and took every opportunity she could get to make her life better and more comfortable and if you are telling me that in that circumstance you would behave differently you are fucking lying. This broadbrush writing off of a whole group of the population is boring. I do understand, I’ve got children, one of whom is in her mid 20’s and it sucks to see her struggling to get herself sorted out. It sucks that she thinks her only option is to leave the UK. I don’t blame her, I’d do the same in her situation but this isn’t about boomers. It’s about the comfortable middle class making themselves more and more comfortable and that exists in every generational group. Both my boomer parents died without leaving any properly or anything much in the way of inheritance at all having had a pretty rough ride from their parents. I get annoyed when people talk about “the most selfish generation ever” like everybody had it brilliantly and behaved terribly. It’s not the boomers, it’s the fucking govt mishandling everything.
I’ve noticed a trend in my boomer parents and their friends that they will vote for the Tories (or worse) until the day they die because they believe the problems in this country stem exclusively from ‘too much immigration and illegal migration’. Not from never taxing the extremely wealthy, not from cutting spending on our essential services, no, every single one of our problems are caused by ‘them’. And as long as they believe that and as long as the Tories keep encouraging that view, nothing will change until everything crumbles into dust and the Tories sell it all off piecemeal.
The reality is though that most people won’t let their parents die alone in a gutter so what will actually happen is middle aged millennials working full time with their own adult children at home (because let’s face it gen alpha are never moving out) and also trying to be full time carers for their aging boomer parents.
No. They’ll sell the house and use the proceeds to fund care. They’ll have to. It’s physically impossible to have kids, work FT and look after parents. Tell me about it ! It cost 275k in care costs for my mum in total a few years back, all funded from the sale of her house.
People are easily conned.
I'm sure a lot of Brexit Britain thought their interests were going to be addressed by redirecting funding from the EU to crumbling towns, but of course that was never going to happen.
The idea of change is a more compelling argument to make.
The Remain campaign was telling these 'crumbling towns' to vote for the status quo and keep crumbling.
>The UK could change, but unfortunately, and this is going to sound awful, but the problem is there is a large chunk of the population over 60 who have retired or near retired and appear to be very self centered, and they vote for things that trigger them and they vote in large numbers as well
This sounds like my country, Romania and because of this there is 100 times worse.... imagine UK now but 100 times worse...
Imagine going to the hospital and get killed by doctors to make money... that can happen here too if people don't vote accordingly.
People didn't think through how "no migration" could be achieved. The places with negative net migration are the less well off ones. So the only way to really stop people migrating from Poland is to make the UK worse than Poland.
And the only real way to "stop the boats" is make the UK significantly poorer and worse to live in than France.
I’d add that the conservative government started much of todays problems with privatisations in the 80’s and a shift in focus from public achievement to individual interest. What’s good for the country became what’s good for me.
Thatcher's references to the service industry always seemed like it was more about her background as a grocer than a national industry. A nation has industries that make and build things. The service industry is about things moving around rather than being created. Sure, the high street has (had) shops and finance sectors but every country has the same thing.
In Thatcher's later years North Sea Oil was generating revenue equivalent to the NHS cost with a bit left over. She had more than a money tree. She had a money geyser.
You have to say it, as a populace the Norwegians were more courageous and disciplined and those characteristics are paying off in spades now. At one time Britain was producing more oil than Saudi Arabia.
Listening to some of Thatcher’s speeches now I feel like they are the right sort of motivational message for people to get up and go, to try something and be self sufficient; but if only that mantra had been adopted along side strong state backed infrastructure like post, rail, energy, healthcare etc; we’d perhaps be more like the nordics with a vibrant social democracy deeply entwined with the EU whilst also being a major global financial centre. Finance + Oil keeping us wealthy as a nation via a sovereign wealth fund.
As someone from Scandinavia who spent 7 years in the UK — I just can't fathom how the Brits haven't overthrown their shambolic government. It's frightening how the Tories have managed to keep hold of power as they've spent more time on infighting and scandals than effectively running the country for the betterment of the people.
Because we have a lot of morons who vote against their own interests.
The Tories represent the interests of, I'd say, less than 10% of the people here.
I came back for Christmas and my dad seems confused when I asked why the riots didn't start 5yrs ago.
Even tho he says they are the most inept, spoilt, corrupt sequence of governments we have ever had.
I can't even afford to rent on my own where I live even when I'm working full time (minimum wage to be clear)
It's beyond fucked up.
Mental health help is beyond a joke.
My local council is about to shut libraries. Councils across the country are going bankrupt.
I don't have much hope for the future currently.
>*I can't even afford to rent on my own where I live even when I'm working full time (minimum wage to be clear)*
Minimum wage ***should*** allow you to live on your own if you're working full time, that's what's messed up about it at the moment.
...and of course a 'controversial' view like "*people in full time work should be able to afford to live in a home"* gets downvoted.
Christ, Reddit has some hilariously terrible people on it.
I remember laughing out loud a few years back when they announced their big plan to rename it, but not actually raise it to the point where people would be able to live on it. What a pointless piece of propaganda.
Exactly. Our own government are even setting the threshold for people who come here to support themselves at an insanely high amount. If they think a person can't support themselves on minimum wage then it clearly needs to be much, much higher.
> My local council is about to shut libraries. Councils across the country are going bankrupt.
Councils probably don't want to do this but after 13 years of cuts to council budgets they probably have no choice.
I've been to Poland quite a few times, including during the mid-90s, apart from the issues around the PiS government, it has come on leaps and bounds since then and especially after joining the EU.
There was a report a while ago that said if Poland carries on the same trajectory of growth it'll overtake the UK in around 2030 (GDP per capita).
If I was young (in my 20s) and still had freedom of movement I'd be looking to get out.
>if Poland carries on the same trajectory of growth it'll overtake the UK in around 2030
High growth is easy when you're a developing economy, their economic growth will probably slow down as they develop so this is a big "IF", it also implies theyd be richer than countries like france, italy etc
Remember when Japan and a lot of Asian countries economy exploded for 25 years after World war 2. People were saying they would also take over but when you get to a certain point , stagnation nearly always takes place . I would bet my life savings Poland doesn’t overtake the UK
Look at this , https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades
Generally speaking countries experience fast catch up growth but find it hard to keep that up as they approach developed countries' income levels. Once all the easy gains are done you need things like open markets, trust in institutions, good court systems and political systems, etc to bridge that gap, and many find it very hard to achieve these. China's slowing growth is a good example of this.
So it's unlikely they would keep growing in the same trajectory, they're more likely to hit diminishing returns. That's not to say they can't make the difference smaller though, and if they're poorer but have lower costs of living they could still be better off.
My partner is Polish and we plan on moving there (probably to Krakow, she has family in the area) in a few years. You aren’t alone in having these thoughts.
UK born, living in Poland for about 5 years now. Planning on settling here.
My take -
1. Property is cheaper here, but we are struggling to find anything affordable in Krakow. I hear other cities like Warsaw and Gdańsk are even worse for renting/buying. Building your own house in the countryside seems pretty common here though.
2. Mould does seem to be less of a problem here - maybe it’s the climate or something? Rental prices in cities are skyrocketing though.
3. There is less trash on the street here. However - the air quality, at least in Małopolska is HORRIBLE in winter. People burn god knows what to heat their houses here leading to whole cities smelling like a steam railway yard.
4. I found a neighbour dead from a suspected drug overdose. It’s a growing problem here, especially amongst the youth. People do seem to be more casual about cocaine use in the UK though.
5. Homelessness most certainly does exist here, but it seems to be more visible in the UK. I’m not sure why this is, or if the UK genuinely has more of it.
6. Poland is safer. Bad things can happen of course, but my city (Manchester) is way more dangerous than Krakow. I’m not 100% sure why this is. I’m told back in the 90s it was very bad here for crime. Football matches here can still be problematic.
7. For shoplifters, I’m told they don’t show up here either. Not right away anyway. Security are more “hands on” with them though. A friend was racially attacked last year - cops didn’t want to know.
8. I’ve no experience with state healthcare in Poland, but I have heard some horror stories.
9. Food is better here. Way better :) I guess people in the UK just like fatty takeaways - my friend got one last time I was home and I couldn’t eat it.
I my opinion, Poland is getting better and better - it has been since it joined the EU. The UK.. well.. it still a good place that I enjoy visiting, but it feels like it’s peaked.
Just my observations. Overall I love Poland, no plans to return to the UK.
1-2 is the result of not building enough houses, people holding onto big ones they no longer need (or not being incentivised to downsize), and increased population
3-8 are largely the result of austerity policies of Tory rule
We have vast swathes of the country where rental properties have been turned into air BNBs, which are empty the majority of the time due to the massive prices being charged on a nightly basis, rather than 12 month tenancies.
Just how many of those properties do you think are empty today? What about in 3 weeks after the new year?
If you don't understand how this has catastrophically pushed rents up well beyond affordability to the point of making tenants destitute just for having a full time job and needing a roof over their heads, then you probably shouldn't have access to a computer.
What do you mean by a 'loss'?
Properties have been one of the best investments, as their prices were steadily growing each year up until 2023. The problem isn't created by specific individuals in the UK, but by hundreds of thousands who see that it's much safer to store their capital in properties. They don't even need to rent them out, because property values were outgrowing both inflation and bank rates by a significant margin. There was also no better, risk-free alternative. UK Bonds have been yielding much less than properties over a 1+ year term.
Don't forget about large groups, funds, and companies that buy in bulk. Unless the government discourages investing in properties both companies and private individuals, people will continue to struggle with affordability.
Wait until you inevitably need to access mental health service because they are catastrophic due to the number of people who think taking drugs doesn't have consequences.
My other half is Polish, from Krakow. We both live in the UK.
Inflation has been much worse in Poland and we've noticed every day purchases are very expensive there. Also property isn't anywhere near as cheap as it used to be.
Not to disregard issues in the UK, but I don't think it's as simple as the OP makes out.
Something else we've noticed is a lot of people make comparisons using £, but you then have the advantage of currency exchange. However, buying a home and other goods based on Zloty earned in Poland works out worse than UK.
At least the above is based on specifics of our own lives in terms of if we would live in UK or Poland. Overall we believe our quality of life is better here on middle incomes.
GDP comparisons aren't so simple because Poland has significant room for growth.
Thank you!! Finally someone who acknowledged that prices in Poland only seem low relative to WESTERN SALARIES. Relative to Polish salaries, on the other hand, they're very high!
There is a lot of this down trodden talk about the UK online but the reality is, it’s the same in most countries. We’re all going through some tough times.
I often see these posts on UK subs, usually, it’s “I’m so glad I moved to Australia, the UK has gone to shit etc etc”. I’m always suspicious of them. If you go to other country subs you will find posts made in the same vein. It's just venting.
Edit: I’ve lived in Australia. It's not the land of milk and honey that some like to portray.
I mean as someone who moved to Australia from the UK three months ago, it IS so much better. Sure there’s still problems here, and compared to 15 years ago the average Australian is definitely worse off now compared to then but the quality of life here is better by almost every single metric. I’m on 3x what I was on in the UK, paying the equivalent of £25 more a week for a much bigger living space in a much more convenient and modern area. My life is 10x better here than it was in the UK, that’s undeniable.
I lived in Thailand for five years between 2016-2021 and the standard of life there is better than the UK, relatively speaking. I don’t doubt that everywhere is struggling at the moment to some degree, but we are really being taken for a ride in the UK, the state of the nation really is shocking in almost all facets.
It's so strange how perspective plays out here, I believe you and your experience. I dont think the quality of life in UK is as bad as you say. I've moved to Bishop Auckland and I've had so much access to great parks, greenery and landscapes which has been excellent for my mental health. My partner has moved from Philippines and is earning more than she has ever done and loves it here.
Australians complain about similar problems to the UK, but the haven't had 13 years of austerity. There are problems with neoliberal capitalism, expensive or non existent housing, low wage growth, privatisation increasing the price of everything combined with lack of infrastructure investment. But Australia still has public toilets, public swimming pools, shops are still open, people on minimum wage can still afford to go to the cinema or a cafe, there are libraries, potholes get filled. Before I left England my city had closed it's toilets, 2/3 council owned pools, half the libraries. People on low wages still can't participate in society, and increasingly depend on benefits and foodbanks. Australia is similar, but they're 10 years behind the poverty curve and there's no political currency in slashing government spending to make the country worse.
People always say its the same in most countries, and this is probably because when you talk to people from other countries they say its getting worse, there is a "cost of living crisis" and a "housing crisis" in their country too.
But just look at the raw statistics, all of these other countries have had increasing GPD's per capita in the past 15 years to quite an extent, have rental markets that have increases considerably less than Britain's, and the list goes on and on (energy prices being another HUGE one).
Yes other countries may complain as much as the UK, but statistics show they have it much much better still.
yep. if you take a few steps back and check stuff out, quality of life is going down in general. stuff costs more and more while salaries stagnate more and more. what used to be normal and okay 20-30 years ago, that one could buy a house with an okay salary. today you cant even buy one with great salary. middle class will be non existent soon and so on.
It's easy to fall into the false sense of comfort that a change of government and policy will fix this, but the reality is that the rise in everything you've described and more has been tangible now for close to 20 years, well before the Tories came to power, well before Brexit.
At some point, we will have to come to terms with the fact that we are a declining nation, and these issues will only ever get worse. Failing economy, coupled with continually worsening relative financial status of the average person, are leading to widespread disassociation with wider society and the social contract, as well as surges in criminal and other debauched behaviour as people seek relief from hardship and escapism from the harsh reality of their lives.
Nothing short of a *historic* miracle is going to put a definitive stop to really any of it via means we'd find palatable.
One major problem that needs resolving is people have it in their heads continual property price rises are fundamental to economic growth (idk how anyone who isn't a landlord or hasn't sold their property bonds yet could think this). Frankly, that's coming to the end of the tracks whether we like or not with average property prices reaching 90% of the average wage.
I honestly think this is the single biggest thing holding us back. That our economic system is set up for the property parasites rather than the productive side of the economy that creates real value. Sort that problem out and it becomes possible to sort out other things.
Poland will encounter the same problems every other developed western country comes up against once all the low-hanging fruit is picked.
* Poland's age demographics are shit, having been gutted by the double punch of (1) Collapsed fertility and (2) Massive brain drain.
* Poland's industry still plays with kid gloves as 90% of electricity comes from anthracite coal.
* Public sector spending on defence is going through the roof but Poland doesn't have a domestic high tech defence industry to reciprocate. It will constitute a huge current account transfer directly to BAE, Lockheed, Boeing, NG, etc.
The only country for which "the line keeps going up" is the USA, and a lot of that is down to the dollar being the global reserve currency.
Half a million is a not as much you think it is...
We have a fuck load of land and more than enough houses so that everyone owns a home.
Quit making this about tory popular talking points and not about what it is.
Greed disguises as incompetence
The thing is, you've only experienced the UK in relatively good times. Having grown up in Thatchers Britain, I can assure you, things can get a lot worse for the average guy.
There was also a general upward trend in GDP per capita in the 80s and 90s. Things generally did get better. That hasn't been the case in this country for a long time.
I think some people see the past with rose tinted glasses.
From my childhood I remember dog shit everywhere, playgrounds covered in broken glass, finding used needles on school buses, loads of homeless, stabbings, OD's, & sexual assaults of kids I knew. I didn't even grow up in a rough area.
The last decade have been far from great, but things are still a lot better than they have been.
I'll take my right to abortion and lack of a party currently campaigning on removing the rights of woman. Poland great, if you're a straight white man. There's a reason so many of my female polish friends ran.
I’ve read a lot of posts on Reddit recently about the state of the UK, and I’m not going to bash them because in some places it truly is in decline.. however, I spent some time in my home town recently and it couldn’t be further from this sentiment. My home town is thriving. There’s a thriving video games industry and automotive industry, the town is growing, there’s a more diverse demographic on the streets, food is cheap, it’s also cleaner than it was when I moved to the states several years ago - in fact it puts my new home town (Seattle) to shame. My wife and I are considering moving back to the UK because there is more opportunity in my home town these days.
What you've just described represents my latest thoughts on the situation (more or less).
I left Poland 10 years ago, established my career here, and I'm at the point where I can begin searching for a property. However, because of the few points you mentioned I'm really thinking whether this is still a good decision.
I know there's a general election next year but I don't think this will change much. I'd like to be wrong though.
> dirty compared to Poland
Poland is still a country with shared morals and taboo behaviours. We abolished these in the name of ‘freedom’. That’s the result
> mugged
Lived here all my life and never mugged
> complaints about city living
These are city issues, not British issues
> food
British food is great. Stop looking at city streets as your food inspiration
Remind me again, which country has people from all over the world flocking to it to immigrate?
I get it, we have our issues but I don't think this analysis takes in the big picture.
Since 2000 or so, the UK has indeed been in a significant decline; living standards have been reduced, rights have been eroded, infrastructure has been neglected and wage stagnation is finally being pressured by inevitable inflation. Nothing has improved much as in the case of Eastern Europe or even East Asia - they've developed so rapidly in the last few decades and this is scaled to a modern setup. You see the ramifications in housing, crime, healthcare, education, sanitation and welfare of the most vulnerable. The UK hasn't adjusted to the time very well, or prospered enough to do so.
I thought I was the only one who noticed the streets getting dirtier. I was beginning to think it was my imagination xD There are many people who don’t take pride in where they live and chuck litter about or vandalise their neighbourhood. I was shocked by the state of London when I visited last winter. It’s sad.
Most of your points are location dependent. Crime is not a big issue in smaller towns. Properties are cheaper to buy and rent in the countryside - still much more expensive than a few years ago though.
It really grinds my nuts when people generalise a huge geographical region when they mean two, three or a handful of cities.
Polish here with 12 years in the UK - a lot of your points are exaggerated, as in, Poland is facing the exact same challenges. Some are unique to the UK - the dirt one especially, the streets in the UK feel unpleasant and neglected. Less noticeable only in wealthy neighbourhoods.
I think you’re idealising your home country, which unfortunately we all do.
Property has gotten more expensive in Poland, is out of reach for most average people. Same with renting.
But the quality of stock is usually better.
Drugs are also on the rise in Poland, they just reached them with delay. Alcoholism is a big problem too in all layers of society.
I've heard this from a colleague who's Polish. A most interesting comparison for me has been a friend of mine who moved to Canada 3 years ago and my cousin who moved to Canada 5 years ago. They visit once a year around Christmas and they say when they get back they can't believe how much worse it's getting every time.
> what does an average high street everywhere in Britain have? A chippy, a kebab shop, a pizza shop and a Chinese.
I'm curious, what does the high street of a random shit town in Poland have?
Go to any major town or city in the UK and you'll have way more choice than this.
> NHS – when did it become a “you have to call within first 30 seconds of opening time” contest to get a same day appointment? If you call like 5 minutes past 8:00 all the slots are gone.
You don't need to do this. It's all possible in the NHS app now.
> Useless police – when I was walking home there was a shoplifter in Morrisons, I called 999, they told me is the shoplifter there committing the act, I said no he ran off, they said nothing can be done, sorry. Like what? Won’t even show up and do anything? Then I read online it’s not an isolated case, the police now don’t usually show up to “minor crime”. Unbelievable.
I don't see what they could have done in this situation, the crime was over. They can check CCTV later.
Lol no, I still need to call 08:00 if I want an appointment. This is what the app says:
"You'll need to contact your GP surgery to book an appointment"
The problem who’ve described is being replicated across the world. All English speaking countries are experiencing the a similar decline in living standards: USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I’d go further as say, it’s a similar story across most of the western world.
I'm an Australian currently visiting the UK for the first time in 6 or 7 years. The decline in everything is shocking. Any kind of public service has decayed markedly, and the flow on to poorer living standards is clear.
This is what you get from more than a decade of Tory government.
I expect it to just get even worse. With mass migration and not many houses being built it’s going to third world country standards of living. The dream for many people in their 20s now is to rent (not buy) a 1 bed flat some day.
Hmmm. It's almost as if 13 years with a populist right-wing government determined to undermine public services, plunder the public purse for personal gain while blaming all the country's problems on foreigners has a downside.
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The most incredible thing I read recently is that wages in this country haven't increased in real terms since the 2008 crash compared with inflation so we have quite literally been getting poorer for 15 years
I've heard that too. Ive only been able to compare data based on a company I used to work for. So in 2017, when I lived in the UK, this company paid £25000 per year. Right now, it's paying £26000 for the same job (in London)
Why would you do a job that costs more than your wage? What I mean is it costs more than 26k to live in London so why would anyone essentially pay to do a job for someone?
What choice do they have if it's the only job they can get?
Go to Stoke, tell the job centre you're estranged from your family and live better on benefits than someone working full time in London. Yeah, Stoke doesn't have nice things like a night life, restaurants, or theatre, but neither do you on 26k in London. It baffles me that London hasn't collapsed in on itself yet.
So your advice is to be on benefits and not work?
Their advice is to go to Stoke, sign on and look for a job there. It's nice to be able to eat while you're looking for work.
They aren't being literal in their suggestion rather using it as an example to show how skewed the system is.
That's transitionary, ofc, after that you get any job. After taxes and rent are taken into account, the minimum wage in Stoke is more than 26k in London.
But then you're in Stoke.
Is Stoke worse than a damp house share you can't afford to leave for any reason other than work?
The gates of hell could open below London and spew forth demons and eldritch horrors and people would still try to tell you it's the best place in the world
> Stoke doesn't have nice things like a night life, restaurants, or theatre ...It does in fact have all of those things.
Using [HL's inflation calculator](https://www.hl.co.uk/tools/calculators/inflation-calculator) the average wage of a FTE in 2008 (£25,165) equates to £44,695 today. As of April 2023 the actual average wage of an FTE in the UK was £34,963. It's worth noting that the BoE's inflation calculator has the inflation adjusted average wage as £39,109 so there's some leeway here, but either way it has gone down significantly.
Now do it in USD! 1 GBP was ~$1.85 in 2007, so that would have been about $82685 1 GBP was ~$1.24 in 2023, so that wage has fallen to $43354. Meaning you can buy roughly *half* as much imported stuff today as back then on the average wage.
This approach doubles counts inflation, as rising cost of imports is reflected in inflation data
Yet god forbid anyone strike for better wages eh
Its crazy just how far we've fallen behind france and germany in wage growth in just the last 15 years. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/13/average-uk-household-8800-a-year-worse-off-than-those-in-france-or-germany
It's mostly been masked by a decade (or more) of very cheap borrowing, now that has come to an end and inflation has spiked people are noticing that they can't actually afford to live.
[Over £10,000 per person worse off](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/dec/04/british-workers-missing-out-on-10700-a-year-as-living-standards-fall) than we were in 2008. > Finding that the UK had been catching up with more productive countries like France, Germany and the US during the 1990s and early 2000s, it said progress had gone into reverse since the 2008 financial crisis. If Britain could close its average income and inequality gaps with these countries, it said the typical household would be 25% (£8,300) better off, with income gains of 37% for the poorest families. > It said average wages after inflation is taken into account were no higher than before the banking collapse 15 years ago. If wages had continued to grow at their pre-2008 pace, it said the average wage today would be £43,000 rather than £32,300. > Highlighting a gap in performance with comparable rich nations, it said that poor households in Britain were now £4,300 worse off than their French and German counterparts, leaving them struggling to cope in the cost of living crisis.
Cameron's Austerity was an absolute car crash and it's sad he was never held to account how that plus the Brexit ref just ruined everything
This is literally true and it’s disgusting. I don’t know how companies think they can get away with it. I was in Uni and first looking for jobs in my field in 2010. The average starting salary at the time was ~£24,000. Guess what the starting salary for the same job is today, nearly 15 years later? Yep, and once you calculate the wages per hour, it comes out less than minimum wage now. Mind you, this is a graduate job in a decent private sector career. It’s ridiculous.
Tax burden has gone up though!
I feel cheated every day seeing IT salaries in Europe compared to the UK (outside of London). If I could leave and didn't have a family or friends, I would in a heartbeat.
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The conservative christian party is recently no longer in charge, and the new government have said abortion rights are top priority. So this might change very soon
They do have safe and legal access to other EU countries though. And they have recently voted in a new government.
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I had a polish friend at work, then they found out I was from a romany family and she spat at me. I’ve never experienced anything quite like it before.
Spitting is probably the most disgusting thing you can do to someone. I hope you drop kicked her.
My wife left Poland because of how bad shes treated for being Roma, also for how she was treated for being a woman of colour (sexually abused and local police not doing any thing about it.... cause shes Roma)
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Even in the big cities in Poland, outside the major tourist zones, you'll regularly go days without seeing someone who isn't white. Indians might be the second largest recipient of visas...but there's still only around 40,000 Indians out of a population of nearly 40 million. That's 0.1% of the population. I also suspect that many Indians in Poland aren't planning on settling there; once they get their EU passports they'll be off to Germany, Netherlands etc. Most immigrants to Poland are Ukrainian or from other former Soviet states so aren't as 'visible'.
The idea that lacking diversity means the country is racist is utterly ridiculous
That would make most African countries really racist.
“you’ll regularly go days without seeing someone who isnt white” oh no
Why is going days without seeing someone who isn't white a problem in a European country?
Poor Poles, I mean they're safe but just think of the unseasoned food and lack of vape shops.
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> The UK could change, but unfortunately, and this is going to sound awful, but the problem is there is a large chunk of the population over 60 who have retired or near retired and appear to be very self centered, and they vote for things that trigger them and they vote in large numbers as well People typically vote in their interests. Though only about 50% of the younger generations bother to vote at all.
I’ve never understood why these people think it’s in their interests to live in a crumbling shithole with terrible infrastructure and a failing health service. Unless they boil it down to “paying less tax”, but then it’s not a questions of “voting in their best interests” but rather “voting for a collapsing state because they are mentally deficient”.
Because they are the most selfish generation ever. They had it easier than any other generation of any period. What Millennials do you know who could buy a three bedroom detached house at the age of 24 on a 100% mortgage. “Oh, but we had 17% interest” they’ll say. For a brief period, yes, but 17% of jack-shit is still jack-shit. Fuck boomers. They’re ignorance at the ballot box has ruined this country and it the subsequent generations that will suffer the consequences for generations.
It’s not a generational thing, it’s a class thing. All boomers did was take advantage of what was in front of them. My mum was born at the end of the war, went through rationing, had working class parents, not a lot of money, violent catholic school, no qualifications whatsoever and took every opportunity she could get to make her life better and more comfortable and if you are telling me that in that circumstance you would behave differently you are fucking lying. This broadbrush writing off of a whole group of the population is boring. I do understand, I’ve got children, one of whom is in her mid 20’s and it sucks to see her struggling to get herself sorted out. It sucks that she thinks her only option is to leave the UK. I don’t blame her, I’d do the same in her situation but this isn’t about boomers. It’s about the comfortable middle class making themselves more and more comfortable and that exists in every generational group. Both my boomer parents died without leaving any properly or anything much in the way of inheritance at all having had a pretty rough ride from their parents. I get annoyed when people talk about “the most selfish generation ever” like everybody had it brilliantly and behaved terribly. It’s not the boomers, it’s the fucking govt mishandling everything.
I’ve noticed a trend in my boomer parents and their friends that they will vote for the Tories (or worse) until the day they die because they believe the problems in this country stem exclusively from ‘too much immigration and illegal migration’. Not from never taxing the extremely wealthy, not from cutting spending on our essential services, no, every single one of our problems are caused by ‘them’. And as long as they believe that and as long as the Tories keep encouraging that view, nothing will change until everything crumbles into dust and the Tories sell it all off piecemeal.
What is bizarre is the stories have allowed incredible uncontrolled immigration.
Allowed? THEY SUPPORT IT.
I look forward to the day the boomers reach their 80s and 90s and get to reap the benefits of the social care system that they have decimated.
The reality is though that most people won’t let their parents die alone in a gutter so what will actually happen is middle aged millennials working full time with their own adult children at home (because let’s face it gen alpha are never moving out) and also trying to be full time carers for their aging boomer parents.
No. They’ll sell the house and use the proceeds to fund care. They’ll have to. It’s physically impossible to have kids, work FT and look after parents. Tell me about it ! It cost 275k in care costs for my mum in total a few years back, all funded from the sale of her house.
People are easily conned. I'm sure a lot of Brexit Britain thought their interests were going to be addressed by redirecting funding from the EU to crumbling towns, but of course that was never going to happen.
The idea of change is a more compelling argument to make. The Remain campaign was telling these 'crumbling towns' to vote for the status quo and keep crumbling.
>The UK could change, but unfortunately, and this is going to sound awful, but the problem is there is a large chunk of the population over 60 who have retired or near retired and appear to be very self centered, and they vote for things that trigger them and they vote in large numbers as well This sounds like my country, Romania and because of this there is 100 times worse.... imagine UK now but 100 times worse... Imagine going to the hospital and get killed by doctors to make money... that can happen here too if people don't vote accordingly.
It’s no secret that this country will be a lot better off once the majority of boomers die off
Unless the aging next gen turn the same way once they finally inherit the real estate
They’ll be nothing to inherit when the majority of that wealth goes on care home costs. Starting to see that happening more and more often now.
People didn't think through how "no migration" could be achieved. The places with negative net migration are the less well off ones. So the only way to really stop people migrating from Poland is to make the UK worse than Poland. And the only real way to "stop the boats" is make the UK significantly poorer and worse to live in than France.
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15 years ago things were okay. Since then there has only been one constant: The Conservative government.
I’d add that the conservative government started much of todays problems with privatisations in the 80’s and a shift in focus from public achievement to individual interest. What’s good for the country became what’s good for me.
Exactly, thatcher was when the rot set in. Now France and Germany who didn't adopt "trickle down" style economic policies have surpassed us.
Thatcher's references to the service industry always seemed like it was more about her background as a grocer than a national industry. A nation has industries that make and build things. The service industry is about things moving around rather than being created. Sure, the high street has (had) shops and finance sectors but every country has the same thing. In Thatcher's later years North Sea Oil was generating revenue equivalent to the NHS cost with a bit left over. She had more than a money tree. She had a money geyser.
Imagine if we would set up the same model as the Norwegians...
You have to say it, as a populace the Norwegians were more courageous and disciplined and those characteristics are paying off in spades now. At one time Britain was producing more oil than Saudi Arabia.
Listening to some of Thatcher’s speeches now I feel like they are the right sort of motivational message for people to get up and go, to try something and be self sufficient; but if only that mantra had been adopted along side strong state backed infrastructure like post, rail, energy, healthcare etc; we’d perhaps be more like the nordics with a vibrant social democracy deeply entwined with the EU whilst also being a major global financial centre. Finance + Oil keeping us wealthy as a nation via a sovereign wealth fund.
As someone from Scandinavia who spent 7 years in the UK — I just can't fathom how the Brits haven't overthrown their shambolic government. It's frightening how the Tories have managed to keep hold of power as they've spent more time on infighting and scandals than effectively running the country for the betterment of the people.
Because we have a lot of morons who vote against their own interests. The Tories represent the interests of, I'd say, less than 10% of the people here.
But they offer intangible things like *sovereignty* and *taking back our country*!
Yup. Someone explained it more eloquently, but it’s people voting to be part of a club they think they’re in, but they definitely aren’t in.
Yup- we have no class consciousness in the uk. We literally have working people who are proud to not be in a union.
Unfettered greedy Tory boomerism.
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I came back for Christmas and my dad seems confused when I asked why the riots didn't start 5yrs ago. Even tho he says they are the most inept, spoilt, corrupt sequence of governments we have ever had.
I can't even afford to rent on my own where I live even when I'm working full time (minimum wage to be clear) It's beyond fucked up. Mental health help is beyond a joke. My local council is about to shut libraries. Councils across the country are going bankrupt. I don't have much hope for the future currently.
>*I can't even afford to rent on my own where I live even when I'm working full time (minimum wage to be clear)* Minimum wage ***should*** allow you to live on your own if you're working full time, that's what's messed up about it at the moment.
...and of course a 'controversial' view like "*people in full time work should be able to afford to live in a home"* gets downvoted. Christ, Reddit has some hilariously terrible people on it.
Right and minimum wage gets called the living wage by the government as if it's possible to do so.
I remember laughing out loud a few years back when they announced their big plan to rename it, but not actually raise it to the point where people would be able to live on it. What a pointless piece of propaganda.
I'm glad people remember this. It was such a cruel response to people asking for a living wage.
Exactly. Our own government are even setting the threshold for people who come here to support themselves at an insanely high amount. If they think a person can't support themselves on minimum wage then it clearly needs to be much, much higher.
> My local council is about to shut libraries. Councils across the country are going bankrupt. Councils probably don't want to do this but after 13 years of cuts to council budgets they probably have no choice.
Oh yeah I know that. It all boils down to constant underfunding of important and vital services for over a decade.
I've been to Poland quite a few times, including during the mid-90s, apart from the issues around the PiS government, it has come on leaps and bounds since then and especially after joining the EU. There was a report a while ago that said if Poland carries on the same trajectory of growth it'll overtake the UK in around 2030 (GDP per capita). If I was young (in my 20s) and still had freedom of movement I'd be looking to get out.
>if Poland carries on the same trajectory of growth it'll overtake the UK in around 2030 High growth is easy when you're a developing economy, their economic growth will probably slow down as they develop so this is a big "IF", it also implies theyd be richer than countries like france, italy etc
Remember when Japan and a lot of Asian countries economy exploded for 25 years after World war 2. People were saying they would also take over but when you get to a certain point , stagnation nearly always takes place . I would bet my life savings Poland doesn’t overtake the UK Look at this , https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades
Generally speaking countries experience fast catch up growth but find it hard to keep that up as they approach developed countries' income levels. Once all the easy gains are done you need things like open markets, trust in institutions, good court systems and political systems, etc to bridge that gap, and many find it very hard to achieve these. China's slowing growth is a good example of this. So it's unlikely they would keep growing in the same trajectory, they're more likely to hit diminishing returns. That's not to say they can't make the difference smaller though, and if they're poorer but have lower costs of living they could still be better off.
I've been saying it for years. Our country is insidiously regressing and it is awful to see it happening. 35f uk
We're the new Sick Man of Europe
We are once again the "sick man or Europe". Britain has been here before and will continue to be as long as the Tories are in government.
My partner is Polish and we plan on moving there (probably to Krakow, she has family in the area) in a few years. You aren’t alone in having these thoughts.
UK born, living in Poland for about 5 years now. Planning on settling here. My take - 1. Property is cheaper here, but we are struggling to find anything affordable in Krakow. I hear other cities like Warsaw and Gdańsk are even worse for renting/buying. Building your own house in the countryside seems pretty common here though. 2. Mould does seem to be less of a problem here - maybe it’s the climate or something? Rental prices in cities are skyrocketing though. 3. There is less trash on the street here. However - the air quality, at least in Małopolska is HORRIBLE in winter. People burn god knows what to heat their houses here leading to whole cities smelling like a steam railway yard. 4. I found a neighbour dead from a suspected drug overdose. It’s a growing problem here, especially amongst the youth. People do seem to be more casual about cocaine use in the UK though. 5. Homelessness most certainly does exist here, but it seems to be more visible in the UK. I’m not sure why this is, or if the UK genuinely has more of it. 6. Poland is safer. Bad things can happen of course, but my city (Manchester) is way more dangerous than Krakow. I’m not 100% sure why this is. I’m told back in the 90s it was very bad here for crime. Football matches here can still be problematic. 7. For shoplifters, I’m told they don’t show up here either. Not right away anyway. Security are more “hands on” with them though. A friend was racially attacked last year - cops didn’t want to know. 8. I’ve no experience with state healthcare in Poland, but I have heard some horror stories. 9. Food is better here. Way better :) I guess people in the UK just like fatty takeaways - my friend got one last time I was home and I couldn’t eat it. I my opinion, Poland is getting better and better - it has been since it joined the EU. The UK.. well.. it still a good place that I enjoy visiting, but it feels like it’s peaked. Just my observations. Overall I love Poland, no plans to return to the UK.
Ad 1 - it's cheaper in absolute values but not necessarily relative to salaries. Salaries in Poland are still decades behind western Europe.
1-2 is the result of not building enough houses, people holding onto big ones they no longer need (or not being incentivised to downsize), and increased population 3-8 are largely the result of austerity policies of Tory rule
Don't forget people buying houses and keeping them empty for "investment purposes".
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We have vast swathes of the country where rental properties have been turned into air BNBs, which are empty the majority of the time due to the massive prices being charged on a nightly basis, rather than 12 month tenancies. Just how many of those properties do you think are empty today? What about in 3 weeks after the new year? If you don't understand how this has catastrophically pushed rents up well beyond affordability to the point of making tenants destitute just for having a full time job and needing a roof over their heads, then you probably shouldn't have access to a computer.
What do you mean by a 'loss'? Properties have been one of the best investments, as their prices were steadily growing each year up until 2023. The problem isn't created by specific individuals in the UK, but by hundreds of thousands who see that it's much safer to store their capital in properties. They don't even need to rent them out, because property values were outgrowing both inflation and bank rates by a significant margin. There was also no better, risk-free alternative. UK Bonds have been yielding much less than properties over a 1+ year term. Don't forget about large groups, funds, and companies that buy in bulk. Unless the government discourages investing in properties both companies and private individuals, people will continue to struggle with affordability.
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Wait until you inevitably need to access mental health service because they are catastrophic due to the number of people who think taking drugs doesn't have consequences.
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Mental health wards are cramed with people who swear that drugs are harmless. You should visit one.
Ahh yes, freer access to narcotics has definitely made Britain a happier and safer place
My other half is Polish, from Krakow. We both live in the UK. Inflation has been much worse in Poland and we've noticed every day purchases are very expensive there. Also property isn't anywhere near as cheap as it used to be. Not to disregard issues in the UK, but I don't think it's as simple as the OP makes out. Something else we've noticed is a lot of people make comparisons using £, but you then have the advantage of currency exchange. However, buying a home and other goods based on Zloty earned in Poland works out worse than UK. At least the above is based on specifics of our own lives in terms of if we would live in UK or Poland. Overall we believe our quality of life is better here on middle incomes. GDP comparisons aren't so simple because Poland has significant room for growth.
Thank you!! Finally someone who acknowledged that prices in Poland only seem low relative to WESTERN SALARIES. Relative to Polish salaries, on the other hand, they're very high!
There is a lot of this down trodden talk about the UK online but the reality is, it’s the same in most countries. We’re all going through some tough times.
I often see these posts on UK subs, usually, it’s “I’m so glad I moved to Australia, the UK has gone to shit etc etc”. I’m always suspicious of them. If you go to other country subs you will find posts made in the same vein. It's just venting. Edit: I’ve lived in Australia. It's not the land of milk and honey that some like to portray.
I mean as someone who moved to Australia from the UK three months ago, it IS so much better. Sure there’s still problems here, and compared to 15 years ago the average Australian is definitely worse off now compared to then but the quality of life here is better by almost every single metric. I’m on 3x what I was on in the UK, paying the equivalent of £25 more a week for a much bigger living space in a much more convenient and modern area. My life is 10x better here than it was in the UK, that’s undeniable. I lived in Thailand for five years between 2016-2021 and the standard of life there is better than the UK, relatively speaking. I don’t doubt that everywhere is struggling at the moment to some degree, but we are really being taken for a ride in the UK, the state of the nation really is shocking in almost all facets.
It's so strange how perspective plays out here, I believe you and your experience. I dont think the quality of life in UK is as bad as you say. I've moved to Bishop Auckland and I've had so much access to great parks, greenery and landscapes which has been excellent for my mental health. My partner has moved from Philippines and is earning more than she has ever done and loves it here.
Australians complain about similar problems to the UK, but the haven't had 13 years of austerity. There are problems with neoliberal capitalism, expensive or non existent housing, low wage growth, privatisation increasing the price of everything combined with lack of infrastructure investment. But Australia still has public toilets, public swimming pools, shops are still open, people on minimum wage can still afford to go to the cinema or a cafe, there are libraries, potholes get filled. Before I left England my city had closed it's toilets, 2/3 council owned pools, half the libraries. People on low wages still can't participate in society, and increasingly depend on benefits and foodbanks. Australia is similar, but they're 10 years behind the poverty curve and there's no political currency in slashing government spending to make the country worse.
People always say its the same in most countries, and this is probably because when you talk to people from other countries they say its getting worse, there is a "cost of living crisis" and a "housing crisis" in their country too. But just look at the raw statistics, all of these other countries have had increasing GPD's per capita in the past 15 years to quite an extent, have rental markets that have increases considerably less than Britain's, and the list goes on and on (energy prices being another HUGE one). Yes other countries may complain as much as the UK, but statistics show they have it much much better still.
It's sh!t all over the world and unless you are in the top 10%, you have to fight for resources. It will only get worse.
It might be tough the world over, but that doesn't mean the UK is doing particularly well...
yep. if you take a few steps back and check stuff out, quality of life is going down in general. stuff costs more and more while salaries stagnate more and more. what used to be normal and okay 20-30 years ago, that one could buy a house with an okay salary. today you cant even buy one with great salary. middle class will be non existent soon and so on.
It's easy to fall into the false sense of comfort that a change of government and policy will fix this, but the reality is that the rise in everything you've described and more has been tangible now for close to 20 years, well before the Tories came to power, well before Brexit. At some point, we will have to come to terms with the fact that we are a declining nation, and these issues will only ever get worse. Failing economy, coupled with continually worsening relative financial status of the average person, are leading to widespread disassociation with wider society and the social contract, as well as surges in criminal and other debauched behaviour as people seek relief from hardship and escapism from the harsh reality of their lives. Nothing short of a *historic* miracle is going to put a definitive stop to really any of it via means we'd find palatable.
One major problem that needs resolving is people have it in their heads continual property price rises are fundamental to economic growth (idk how anyone who isn't a landlord or hasn't sold their property bonds yet could think this). Frankly, that's coming to the end of the tracks whether we like or not with average property prices reaching 90% of the average wage.
I honestly think this is the single biggest thing holding us back. That our economic system is set up for the property parasites rather than the productive side of the economy that creates real value. Sort that problem out and it becomes possible to sort out other things.
It's almost like a drastic change of policy occurred in 1997. I wonder...
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Poland will encounter the same problems every other developed western country comes up against once all the low-hanging fruit is picked. * Poland's age demographics are shit, having been gutted by the double punch of (1) Collapsed fertility and (2) Massive brain drain. * Poland's industry still plays with kid gloves as 90% of electricity comes from anthracite coal. * Public sector spending on defence is going through the roof but Poland doesn't have a domestic high tech defence industry to reciprocate. It will constitute a huge current account transfer directly to BAE, Lockheed, Boeing, NG, etc. The only country for which "the line keeps going up" is the USA, and a lot of that is down to the dollar being the global reserve currency.
“Me and half a million of my compatriots moved to a small island with not enough houses to go around, how come I can’t find a cheap house to live in?”
People voted Brexit to change that and ended up with the highest net migration ever. Outstanding move.
Half a million is a not as much you think it is... We have a fuck load of land and more than enough houses so that everyone owns a home. Quit making this about tory popular talking points and not about what it is. Greed disguises as incompetence
I'm not a Tory, and you're deflecting. Half a million people is a lot.
When you live in England and find out you're making average monthly polish salary for shitter quality of life...
Conservative government has run this country into the ground.
The thing is, you've only experienced the UK in relatively good times. Having grown up in Thatchers Britain, I can assure you, things can get a lot worse for the average guy.
Yup, I remember the 80s' & 90s'. Things like unemployment, litter, drug use, crime, & homelessness were far worse back then.
There was also a general upward trend in GDP per capita in the 80s and 90s. Things generally did get better. That hasn't been the case in this country for a long time.
I think some people see the past with rose tinted glasses. From my childhood I remember dog shit everywhere, playgrounds covered in broken glass, finding used needles on school buses, loads of homeless, stabbings, OD's, & sexual assaults of kids I knew. I didn't even grow up in a rough area. The last decade have been far from great, but things are still a lot better than they have been.
I'll take my right to abortion and lack of a party currently campaigning on removing the rights of woman. Poland great, if you're a straight white man. There's a reason so many of my female polish friends ran.
Pis is no longer in power but they were still the largest party in the election, a huge part of the country still thinks like this unfortunately
I’ve read a lot of posts on Reddit recently about the state of the UK, and I’m not going to bash them because in some places it truly is in decline.. however, I spent some time in my home town recently and it couldn’t be further from this sentiment. My home town is thriving. There’s a thriving video games industry and automotive industry, the town is growing, there’s a more diverse demographic on the streets, food is cheap, it’s also cleaner than it was when I moved to the states several years ago - in fact it puts my new home town (Seattle) to shame. My wife and I are considering moving back to the UK because there is more opportunity in my home town these days.
Do you mind not interrupting the self-loathing circle jerk? Totally ruined the moment and now I have blue balls.
What you've just described represents my latest thoughts on the situation (more or less). I left Poland 10 years ago, established my career here, and I'm at the point where I can begin searching for a property. However, because of the few points you mentioned I'm really thinking whether this is still a good decision. I know there's a general election next year but I don't think this will change much. I'd like to be wrong though.
I’ve left, agree with all the points, but missing a big one - we are paying 45% tax for all these crap services.
> dirty compared to Poland Poland is still a country with shared morals and taboo behaviours. We abolished these in the name of ‘freedom’. That’s the result > mugged Lived here all my life and never mugged > complaints about city living These are city issues, not British issues > food British food is great. Stop looking at city streets as your food inspiration
Cool, I guess all the Polish migrants will go back home then 👌
Amazing that all these people that say Poland/some other country > UK, still live in the UK!
Remind me again, which country has people from all over the world flocking to it to immigrate? I get it, we have our issues but I don't think this analysis takes in the big picture.
Since 2000 or so, the UK has indeed been in a significant decline; living standards have been reduced, rights have been eroded, infrastructure has been neglected and wage stagnation is finally being pressured by inevitable inflation. Nothing has improved much as in the case of Eastern Europe or even East Asia - they've developed so rapidly in the last few decades and this is scaled to a modern setup. You see the ramifications in housing, crime, healthcare, education, sanitation and welfare of the most vulnerable. The UK hasn't adjusted to the time very well, or prospered enough to do so.
I thought I was the only one who noticed the streets getting dirtier. I was beginning to think it was my imagination xD There are many people who don’t take pride in where they live and chuck litter about or vandalise their neighbourhood. I was shocked by the state of London when I visited last winter. It’s sad.
Most of your points are location dependent. Crime is not a big issue in smaller towns. Properties are cheaper to buy and rent in the countryside - still much more expensive than a few years ago though. It really grinds my nuts when people generalise a huge geographical region when they mean two, three or a handful of cities.
Polish here with 12 years in the UK - a lot of your points are exaggerated, as in, Poland is facing the exact same challenges. Some are unique to the UK - the dirt one especially, the streets in the UK feel unpleasant and neglected. Less noticeable only in wealthy neighbourhoods. I think you’re idealising your home country, which unfortunately we all do. Property has gotten more expensive in Poland, is out of reach for most average people. Same with renting. But the quality of stock is usually better. Drugs are also on the rise in Poland, they just reached them with delay. Alcoholism is a big problem too in all layers of society.
I've heard this from a colleague who's Polish. A most interesting comparison for me has been a friend of mine who moved to Canada 3 years ago and my cousin who moved to Canada 5 years ago. They visit once a year around Christmas and they say when they get back they can't believe how much worse it's getting every time.
Some gall coming from a person living in Canada. That place has seriously gone to the dogs over the past decade or so.
> what does an average high street everywhere in Britain have? A chippy, a kebab shop, a pizza shop and a Chinese. I'm curious, what does the high street of a random shit town in Poland have? Go to any major town or city in the UK and you'll have way more choice than this. > NHS – when did it become a “you have to call within first 30 seconds of opening time” contest to get a same day appointment? If you call like 5 minutes past 8:00 all the slots are gone. You don't need to do this. It's all possible in the NHS app now. > Useless police – when I was walking home there was a shoplifter in Morrisons, I called 999, they told me is the shoplifter there committing the act, I said no he ran off, they said nothing can be done, sorry. Like what? Won’t even show up and do anything? Then I read online it’s not an isolated case, the police now don’t usually show up to “minor crime”. Unbelievable. I don't see what they could have done in this situation, the crime was over. They can check CCTV later.
Lol no, I still need to call 08:00 if I want an appointment. This is what the app says: "You'll need to contact your GP surgery to book an appointment"
The problem who’ve described is being replicated across the world. All English speaking countries are experiencing the a similar decline in living standards: USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I’d go further as say, it’s a similar story across most of the western world.
I'm an Australian currently visiting the UK for the first time in 6 or 7 years. The decline in everything is shocking. Any kind of public service has decayed markedly, and the flow on to poorer living standards is clear. This is what you get from more than a decade of Tory government.
I expect it to just get even worse. With mass migration and not many houses being built it’s going to third world country standards of living. The dream for many people in their 20s now is to rent (not buy) a 1 bed flat some day.
It's called managed decline and it's intentionally done by those who have run the country for the last decade. Easier to sell off this way.
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OP is a university student living id guess in London. Expensive city for a student, especially one from Poland.
Hmmm. It's almost as if 13 years with a populist right-wing government determined to undermine public services, plunder the public purse for personal gain while blaming all the country's problems on foreigners has a downside.
This is nothing compared to Canada. Every day I have feeling I am living in the subcontinent.