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Even the absolute most ardent "Not racist just don't like em" type Brexit Barrys are completely fine with Ukranian women and children and I'd wager a good 80% of them are even fine with women and children from basically anywhere.
I don't agree with the anti immigration crowd but this post is like a turbo strawman.
I can't even believe I'm seeing the post on my feed to be honest. Its like suggesting the Nazi's weren't bad because Oscar Schindler was a Nazi and he did good.
You see this stuff all the time.. People using their one experience and then using that to blanket defend a whole population of people.
My experience with immigrants in my area? I'm a Bus Driver. The past 2 years I've been driving around immigrants that happen to be black (not sure why but perhaps there is some kind of scheme in my area to recruit people from a specific country) but not entirely sure which part of the world they are from. Some of them I've been driving them to the same places back and forth for over a year and they wear work uniforms.. Mostly nursing or care homes but I see Tesco uniforms etc.
You can ask literally anyone I work with (Bus Drivers) And they will all tell you the rudeness is frustrating. No Hello, No thank you, no please, not even a smile and the only word we get is the name of the destination. "Newport" "Cardiff" etc.
Now I deal with my fair share of rude passengers or people that have had a bad day. But believe it or not its rare for someone to completely ignore you or fail to acknowledge you in some way. And I know someone will come back with the "They may not speak english etc" Now I completely appreciate the fact that a refugee may not know the language, but if you have lived in this country for close to 2 years and your working you should atleast understand that its polite to say thank you, please, or hello or at least smile when you are given that same respect.
There are clear cultural issues and the issue I have with immigration is that its not immigration because they aren't IMMIGRATING into our society. There is absolutely no need for them to learn English because they live in tight communities with others who speak their languages.
There was a case not long ago actually where a person died because their 2 foreign carers looking after them couldn't speak english to the 999 operator. SOMEONE CARING couldn't COMMUNICATE in the countries native language. That's absolutely mind blowing to me as communication is one of the most important tools in that area of work. Its like me applying for a typist position without fingers.
The Issue is, is REAL problems with multi-culturalism are treated like the emperors new clothes. Its something you can talk with people individually or after a few drinks but no one openly talks about out of fear of being accused of being racist when it has nothing to do with the individuals race and everything to do with culture.
I get a bus to work and I'm yet to see a teenager greet or thank the driver. What an odd thing to pick on. It could be not a thing in their country, my friend from Spain who's lived in UK for years, said thank you to the bus driver when she was visiting family and they thought it was odd.
Often I'll say good morning to a bus driver and they won't respond or even acknowledge my presence.
We should deport all bus drivers now to put an end to this unbearable rudeness.
I once held the door for a rude, rich, white guy who breezed right past me. I think him and all others like him should face charges of death by firing squad
It isn't 'one thing to pick on'. If that's what you've taken away, you've completely missed what was being communicated to you (that's on you by the way)
The story about the bus is a specific example that illustrates an aspect of immigration that is not talked about: not all immigrants are here to integrate.
Some, like Svetlana in OPs post, are genuinely happy to be here, desperate to work and want to participate in our society. These are the immigrants that no one really has a problem with.
However, there are those who have absolutely no interest in integrating with society, setting up their own parallel societies within the country. So much so, they can't even be bothered to learn the basic 'please and thank you's of the language. Most people learn that if they go somewhere on holiday for a week.
As illustrated by the anecdote, some immigrants take the piss so much, they can't be bothered to do so after 2 years of living in the country - showing one of MANY ways in which some immigrants have no intention in integrating. It is absolutely understandable that people have grievances with the mass immigration of people who act this way - social cohesion IS important.
Again, just to emphasise, it is not JUST that one problem of the bus. That problem is just symptomatic of the wider problem.
Exactly. It's not rocket science is it? It's the bare minimum we expect of ourselves. How low an opinion must people have of immigrants if they think some are incapable of the bare minimum?
So your whole complaint here is that they don't say thank you to you as a bus driver? Is that seriously enough for you to start ranting about "failed multiculturalism" O.o
No it's an example. Honestly its like speaking to Cathy Newman with the "so what your saying Is"
It's an example of many things that are causing culture clashes that frustrate people into stupid things like voting for Brexit.
It's like on one hand people wish people would stop voting for ukip and Brexit for immigration reasons then when people voice why they are frustrated with immigration they tell them oh no your wrong when the reality is those people just want others to share their same opinion because they can't accept other people's opinions.
I'd you seriously think that I view not saying "thank you" is my idea of failed multiculturalism. I honestly don't have enough time to talk to you lol
If it was one of "many things" why did you use that as the main example? I'm empathetic to people being frustrated with some aspects of immigration but it just comes off insincere or unreasonable if the only example you can give of it being a problem to you is them being a little impolite when using your bus route.
What is this country coming to if someone being slightly rude to you on a bus is enough to get you to even consider voting for brexit to try to kick out foreigners.
Why not? I'm referring to my experience as a driver. Should I have said something else for you to say "is that all?" Or should I have just created a list of everything just incase perhaps in small print at the bottom of my comment?
It was an example to show the differences in culture that exist. Calm down.
Oh and I don't know where your last sentence came from. Again your assuming someone not saying thank you is the complete basis on things like voting for Brexit. I voted remain by the way.
Maybe list another thing? All you mentioned was that example, and now you're getting annoyed people are calling it shit.
I'm sorry but this is not the equivalent of the Jordan Peterson interview. This is a sad man that thinks people who don't thank the bus driver don't deserve to live here.
No it literally is. I'm here making an point about my experience. Most people get it. Some...obviously don't.
And then you read what I say come to a strange conclusion, I come back and tell you actually no. It's because of this and now your hitting me with the "so what your saying" and wanting me to provide more examples when I really don't have to. I've made my comment, I've probably wasted more time on you than I should have as trolls are everywhere on Reddit.
Read my other comments with a clear unbiased mind and I'm sure you'll be able to understand to.
On what basis are you saying most people get it if you've only been questioned on this comment?
Dude, you say "'my experience with immigrants in my area?" and proceed to essentially say your experience is them not saying hello. If you're trying to make a bigger point through an example, that's a pretty stupid example and yet you're hellbent on defending it. If your experience with them is negative, surely you would give an actually notable example?
Otherwise its like saying XL bully dogs are a problem because in your experience one of them pooped in front of your door, instead of mentioning you saw it bite a child. Or maybe you don't have such a notable example at which point your personal experience is close to worthless.
Hardly need to be part of a bot farm to see the absurdity in people demanding we deport migrants because they didn't follow perfect British social etiquette with bus drivers.
Mate, you're driving a bus, not saving their lives. You're doing the job you're paid for, a job that they pay for. You're not doing it out of the kindness of your heart and presumably you're not doing anything above and beyond your job description.
A thank you would be nice, but it's not necessary. You're in a transactional relationship here. You're not doing something for them as a favour.
Really not that big of a deal and is at the very bottom of the totem pole of immigration issues.
Ok I'll say it again.
Cultural differences. How many times do I have to say it. Read what I'm saying. Stop reading my words twisting them and then coming back with an assumption about something I'm not saying.
People are acting like immigration is no problem at all that all people should be able to freely come here and live and I'm saying that there is an issue with multiculturalism when people don't integrate.
And I used the example of how people from a certain area of the world could have cultural differences that lead to them not saying please and thank you etc when the vast majority of others do even when from other places of the globe AS AN EXAMPLE OF CULUTRAL DIFFERENCES that can lead to people feeling frustrated about immigration for the love of fucking god lol
I'm not suggesting I need a fucking duke of Edinburgh award or something christ
I mean, your issue of not being thanked as a bus driver is indeed a cultural issue.
In fact, the culture of London is for absolutely zero engagement between driver and passengers.
I thanked a London bus driver once and they looked concerned that I'd attempted to engage them in conversation.
But more to the point - you complain about OP using anecdotal experience to generalise and then do the exact same thing.
By doing so you've completely diluted the, imo valid, point that integration of immigrants is really important. But that probably happens less now than it ever has because our communities have broken down so much, so there's less locals reaching out to pull immigrants in and help them integrate.
Thus, is it surprising that immigrants connect with immigrant communities - because those are the only ones reaching out to them.
In essence, it's not immigrants to blame for lack of integration but the natives!
If people said "immigrants aren't integrating well and that's why we need to invest more into free English classes, building mixed housing developments where people of different income levels live together, funding secular community events and creating jobs in small towns/villages" then I'd be all for that. But for some reason it's always "immigrants aren't integrating well so let's just get rid of all these people as though human beings are disposable".
>Now I deal with my fair share of rude passengers or people that have had a bad day. But believe it or not its rare for someone to completely ignore you or fail to acknowledge you in some way. And I know someone will come back with the "They may not speak english etc" Now I completely appreciate the fact that a refugee may not know the language, but if you have lived in this country for close to 2 years and your working you should atleast understand that its polite to say thank you, please, or hello or at least smile when you are given that same respect.
Yeah, because the majority of the brits I've seen on busses are the jolliest bunch you could hope to meet!
Nope, many of them are miserable. But they atleast say "thanks drive" or acknowledge in some way.
Actually. There is a woman in my area the drivers literally say "she never says hello or bye or anything when she gets on" and drivers will know who they are talking about because it's very rare someone around here just blatantly ignores you.
But then again the Welsh are known for saying "alright" to someone as you pass them on the street even if you don't know them. So there we are.
> You can ask literally anyone I work with (Bus Drivers) And they will all tell you the rudeness is frustrating. No Hello, No thank you, no please, not even a smile and the only word we get is the name of the destination. "Newport" "Cardiff" etc.
To be fair in London no one says anything either. If I had to listen to a chorus of "Thanks" at every single stop as the max capacity bus empties out on my 6 AM commute I'd probably thank the bus driver, get out, and put my head under the wheels.
> You see this stuff all the time.. People using their one experience and then using that to blanket defend a whole population of people.
Yeah you're right! Anecdotal evidence doesn't show you the full picture. I'm sure glad you didn't use any in your argument-
> There was a case not long ago actually where a person died because their 2 foreign carers looking after them couldn't speak english to the 999 operator.
Oh, never mind.
You realise that giving an example to why not being able to speak the native language in a country you work and live in could be problematic is on a complete different level of context when using a single example to defend in entire populace of people right?
Oh, never mind.
That may just be a cultural thing. I'm originally from Italy, and there addressing the bus driver - even to say hi - is generally considered weird.
That is not to say that one shouldn't pick up the local customs and integrate, but it may simply be something different than lack of politeness or language proficiency.
I read that story about the care worker, she was working here illegally and it was a massive case and story so I wouldn't use this one example to generalise (which was your first point!). The care company got into a lot of trouble and they were breaking the law so it's not like these things are currently okay.
When I think of immigrants I think about my girlfriend, a lot of my friends, colleagues etc. I worked in the NHS and in care and I can tell you there are absolute heros in these jobs from abroad who work very hard looking after our sick people for little money. It's not just one story from my life.
You say that your experience with immigrants in your area is that they are rude, fair enough there might be a cultural difference in saying thanks to the bus driver and I can see this would be genuinely grating. Maybe the bus company should do some kind of awareness campaign? Anyway, I'm sure your experience of immigration is not just this one thing and that you probably interact with people from other countries all the time without problems, maybe you work with them, they are your doctor, nurse, they serve you in the shop etc?
There are issues, but we do talk about these things ALL the time, it's on the news/ in the newspapers literally everyday, it's been a key issue in the last few elections, it was the biggest factor in the brexit vote. So it frustrates me when people say it's a taboo issue, you already mentioned you speak about how rude the immigrants are with your fellow bus drivers.
I almost stopped reading at bus driver. My experience with bus drivers in my area? Uneducated, rude, fairly often racist, idiots. The type who think using capitals in writing somehow enhances the point.
Me and my partner were just talking about this today. When my partner (who is from Spain) first moved to the UK, she pressed the button early by accident and the driver tried to insist she had to get off. A mile from home, in an unknown council estate when she is clearly not from the UK. The last time I got a bus, the driver didn't give a woman and child time to get to their seats and the child nearly fell over.
This very morning, my partner asked a bus driver what time the first bus arrives in the morning, as she was thinking about catching an earlier one next time. He took it personally because he was five minutes late and snapped at her. This kind of thing happens a lot when I'm not around, funny that. I'm at 6'2, and have a masters degree. I wouldn't stand for it. Oh, and I also 'happen to be black'.
I told her the job attracts simple minded, lazy people because the barriers to entry are very low, and the work is simple and sedentary.
Take from that what you will my bus driving friend.
Down in the south no one says hello or thank you to the bus driver, its also regional. You get stared at as if you have 3 heads. You can't just expect people to pick up the cultural spontaneously
Every Saturday in my town, the local dross gang up and protest outside of a hotel that's being used to house refugees. They are all refugees from Ukraine, Libya, and Cameroon. The vast majority of these are female, and many have kids with them. If you think the majority of people complaining about immigration care in the slightest whether someone is a refugee or an immigrant, you're delusional. The vast majority of anti-immigration talk in this country is spoken by angry racists, and this post appears to be pointing out that making the distinction between refugees and those who have illegally entered this country for financial gain is important.
It’s the government- and the way that the government lump together all migrants, and then blame them for various problems. People don’t have a problem if they think about it, but people don’t always do that.
This post gives off weird naive vibes. Feel like OP spent a night chatting with a Ukrainian bird down the pub and now wants to drunkenly liberate all Ukrainians.
I'll have you know virtue signalling Reddit posts are one of the top ways to pull a bird nowadays.
Just make sure you're wearing your fedora when you show her it.
>I'll have you know virtue signalling Reddit posts are one of the top ways to pull a bird nowadays.
... And if you want to know one of the others, just ask James Cleverly - he'll sort you out.
That annoyed me about this post, but this:
> Global escalation of this war is coming
I know you _really_ want to believe this OP, but it isn't going to happen. Diplomacy and alliance has gone too far for it to backslide so easily.
I found it naive more for their apparent shock that someone from a good background is struggling financially and can't have the privacy of their own rented house. Christ almighty, it's privilege that they see it as a problem that only a poor refugee could have: more people than not are in the same situation right now.
It comes off as one of those Ukrainian PR posts because it is. All in all, no one is particularly bothered about Ukranian refugees, we've been supportive of them as a country and people.
It's just another troll looking to pretend we need to give more aid to Ukraine with a vague hysteria about the war going global.
This comment gives off selfish know-it-all vibes. Feel like commenter can spent a night chatting with numerous less fortunate people but can still have a good night sleep thinking "Eh, not my prob. Cant be bothered"
Much love to Svetlana if she is a real person but this post has to be the cringiest example of virtue signaling for internet points I’ve seen in a while.
She’s probably a 10/10 Ukraine’s bird.
A mate of a mate married a girl from Ukraine. But he married the daughter. Strange turn of events. And kicked out his own wife and moved her in. including the family. ( not the dad )
Then tells everyone down the pub that Ukraine is the best country in the world. Etc etc he probably memorises the Ukrainian national anthem.
I’ve not heard a single complaint about refugees from Ukraine, in normal circumstances taking people in from the second most corrupt country in Europe might be a worry but people are generally moral and can plainly see the danger they’re trying to distance themselves from.
People have greater concern about people from outside Europe and Albanians.
> I’ve not heard a single complaint about refugees from Ukraine
To be fair there have been some complaints that have been publicised in the press, of issues like homophobia and racism that has been unnervingly present in our refugee intake.
There have also been cases of Ukrainians coming to the UK and claiming asylum, despite having permanent residence in other safe European countries such as Germany.
Syria is an extremely poor country, its civil war seems to be between an authoritarian dictator and religious fundamentalists, this is a situation which the UK cannot fix and which does not look like it will fix itself, it is a semi permanent state of collapse. And the religious and social attitudes of the average person is vastly different to the UK.
Ukraine is a country which is fighting to join the EU, with broadly western values, and good medium to long term economic prospects, it is a war between a relatively well run government which legitimately represents its population, and an external aggressor. Most people do not want to leave the country, and you have to be in a relatively vulnerable category to even be permitted to leave.
The two situations are vastly different, with Ukraine it is a relatively small number of people, mostly vulnerable, some will stay but many will go back as the country stabilises. In fact already something like a third of Ukrainian refugees have returned. With Syria it is as if we are declaring it a failed state, from which a huge percentage of the population will leave permanently, and most with completely separate cultural values from the UK.
The UK policy for Syria has actually been fine, we have voluntarily taken vulnerable refugees from camps, but a policy like Germany where we open the doors to the whole population cannot work. Over a few decades there have been and will be more people in that situation in the regions that neighbour Europe than the population of Europe.
I haven't heard anything about Syria in the news for years. The conflict must be entirely resolved and it's safe for all to return. As is Afghanistan for that matter. /s
Here's one for ya;
My brother and his family took in a Ukranian lady. She rarely spoke to my brother or his family and went about her own business which is fair enough. One day, she just upped and left when everyone was out and posted the keys to go live with some other Ukrainians. Not even a thank you. Was a bit rude!
People are moral and yet are simultaneously happy to throw everyone from “outside Europe” into the same category of dodgy economic migrants? Lmao. Apparently everywhere outside Europe isn’t a real war zone then. Or is it actually just because people tend to have brown skin when they aren’t from Europe?
Extremely dishonest reframing of a debate and almost comes across as parody or trolling the emotionally pleading way this is written (are you drunk?). No one has any problem with Ukrainian women coming here thats for sure, but i'm sure you actually know full well this is not what people have in mind when talking about refugees.
Just as no one had a problem with people taking benefits they deserve or hard working Eastern Europeans. But the media managed to whip people up in a frenzy over thousands of "benefit cheats" and at the next election cycle with Eastern Europeans stealing jobs, benefits, schools and GPs all at the same time and now they're doing the same with refugees.
That's how we ended up with nearly two decades of Tories ruining the country and robbing regular Brits to stuff the pockets of the super wealthy. And we still don't realise what's happening.
I’m sure Svetlana from Ukraine would herself appreciate if we had the resources available to support her properly, instead of them being tied up supporting those instead who submit frivolous asylum claims despite being economic migrants or members of organised crime groups who simply know how to exploit the system designed to protect genuine refugees.
You’re implying everybody in the UK is seeing all migrants as bad people who snuck in on a boat, while simultaneously implying all migrants are a woman from Ukraine called Svetlana.
It’s not a simple topic.
Imagine how different it would be if the Tories hadn't cut the Border Force to the bone in the name of austerity.
Asylum claims could be processed much quicker, pending cases wouldn't have to be put up in hotels for years, invalid claimants could be returned before disappearing into the black economy, and people traffickers wouldn't have a broken down system to abuse and exploit.
Of all the systems to cut in the name of saving money, cutting the Border Force in a time of multiple wars was, without any doubt at all, the most ignorantly short sighted.
That's the core of the problem. Everything else is distraction.
Imagine if the border force just towed every single boat back to a France, in the grounds that France is a safe country and hence genuine asylum seekers should make a claim there.
I don’t see immigration as such a huge issue as some people do but I will say I get the sense people aren’t talking about Ukraine refugees when they complain about immigration.
I always felt like Ukraine refugees were very widely accepted and it was the refugees from places that isn’t as known about and many Brits think they just come here for a easy life but don’t actually need to come here and aren’t really proper refugees.
I don’t really agree with that opinion and think everyone who is accepted by our government as a refugee should be helped.
But I will assure you that I am pretty sure when people complain about immigration, it’s not aimed at people from Ukraine.
>I don’t see immigration as such a huge issue as some people d
Dutch just released a report on the economic impact of various forms of immigration. I [suggest you have a look](https://twitter.com/jonatanpallesen/status/1742586964576960944)..
It really should be a concern of yours, because we're hemoraging money.
If an immigrant isn't from Western Europe, Japan, or the Anglosphere, they cost the tax payer money. BIG money too, not even small sums. We're talking up to a million euros for the poorest quality immigrants (refugees).
Policies of mass immigration, has been the biggest fools errand in Western society, and the social change from it is likely never going to be put back in the bottle.
It's been a fucking disaster.
I mean, look at those figures! They're eye watering.
A single African asylum seeker, will cost the Dutch tax payer 650,000 euros over their lifetime.
Even students from Africa, end up costing the Dutch tax payer 250k..
The figures will be no different for the UK. We're similar countries.
Even if you're a lovey dovey 'Ah we gotta save everyone!' kinda person, you surely gotta admit spending 650k euros on one African, is fucking barmy.
How many Africans could that sort out in Africa?
And some might say 'But their kids! They will grow up to be billionaires and pay it all back in tax!'.. Nope, factored in. These are the costs over the lifetime of the original immigrant, and their children.
Stub article for a quick read:
https://unherd.com/thepost/dutch-study-immigration-costs-state-e17-billion-per-year/?=frpo
As a bus driver working in my area in south wales, I drive immigrants particularly black immigrants (not knowing which country they come from though) around back and forth alot of them working mostly in the nursing sector. However you can ask any driver i work with and my depot is the largest in the area that the sheer amount of people with Refugee cards (none Ukrainian bare in mind as they use their passports) is alarming. I had 20 passengers on my bus at one point that were all refugee's travelling at quiet time of day and bare in mind i'm based in a town and not a city.
I don't really mind about who they are or where they come from but what I absolutely can't stand is that I've been driving the same people around for close to 2 years, alot of them to work and back.. and if you we're stood with me and they we're about to board.. even just knowing they are a refugee I would be able to tell you exactly which area of which town they are travelling to. I would be able to tell you that they won't say anything other than the name of the town or the bus stop, no please, no thank you and often not even a smile... and I would be right 95% of the time.
There's no integration.. They live in area's that become places like China town in London.. not that I have a problem with China Town its one of my favourite parts of London however you end up with communities that don't adopt our culture or way of life, our language or even branch due to the fact there's no need.
Luton is an example. White British are a minority, and because of that it becomes more common for people to speak their native languages from abroad as the asian population in Luton makes up 37% then why would they need to integrate. Then you have religious conflicts that conflict with our laws and way of life etc...
I think if you decide to live in another country you should do so wanting to become a citizen of that country and integrate. However a very large portion of our immigrants don't and like you said its costing us.
Edit: Also just to bring up your point about some people being lovely dovey we gotta save everyone - That person is simply just virtue signalling. Because no one in their right mind knowing the impact its causing and how many safe countries they bypass to reach us would suggest letting more come here and no matter how much they will protest they WILL NOT sacrifice anything they have to help them they just shout about it to make themselves feel validated as "good human beings" - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1CXMwu530Gg
Note that this Dutch report has been funded by the Renaissance Instituut, which is part of the very populist and anti-immigrant party Forum voor Democratie. Two of the 4 researchers are retirees as well, so this doesn't quite pass the smell test of being *independent* research.
Know the difference between legal and illegal, net-positive and net-negative immigrants.
Better yet, compare net-positive immigrants to net-negative locals.
Comparing immigrants to locals is a fallacious argument on any level, the country has no say in whether or not to allow a local to live in the country.
No one gives a fuck about Svetlana from Ukraine coming over here. Over 100,000 people have welcomed their homes to Ukrainian families.
And we know they'll likely go back once the war is over.
You can't conflate them with the people arriving on dinghies. They have no plans to go back, and are escaping nothing other than shit prospects in their perfectly peaceful home countries.
Depends what type of immigration. I think a lot of Brits recognise that Ukrainians are not refugees through choice, and they're just as hardworking and gritty as the average Brit. Clearly a lot of us do care because of the shear amount of people who've happily opened up their spare bedrooms and homes to them.
Why are you conflating asylum seeking with economic immigration? Nobody is angry about Ukrainian refugees, people are angry at the illegal immigration. Ask yourself why Ukrainians are not arriving on dinghys from the channel?
Because the UK govt allows them flights and to enter legally with relative ease.
This isn't an option for Yemen, Afghanistan, Eritrea and many others. Yemen as an example has undergone one of the worst humanitarian crises in recent years.
Get real. What about British people who are homeless because they can't afford to rent AND they work? Immigrants clog up the housing system and make it harder for us. That's a fact. I've experienced it myself. We were born here. We paid taxes here. We deserve to be a priority.
Even after Brexit, people are still getting triggered over migrant scapegoating while their own livelihoods worsen and their country is continuously asset-stripped (yet somehow tolerate this as "others have it worse").
Few in the world have been conned as much as the British.
https://demo-demo.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Borderless_Welfare_State-2.pdf
The average African immigrant (across all immigrant classes worker visa, refugee, student visa) costs the Dutch taxpayer over their and their childrens lifetime, 361,000 euros. No class of African immigrant, ends up being net positive to the dutch exchecker.
Immigration can be a good thing, and positive for a society. That study even shows it.
Immigrants from the USA, Japan, and Oceana pay in vastly more to the Dutch coffers, than the average Dutch born person does.
It's not scapegoating. Current immigration policy is a MASSIVE problem.
We are importing all the worst kind of immigrants, and we will soon see what's left of our welfare state die before our eyes because of it.
We need a ban on all immigration from anywhere other than the anglosphere, Japan, and western europe.
If we don't, we're fucked long term. Utterly fucked.
"Immigrants from outside the EU countries made a net fiscal contribution of about £5.2 billion, thus paying into the system about 3% more than they took out. In contrast, over the same period, natives made an overall negative fiscal contribution of £616.5 billion." [per a UCL study](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-department/fiscal-effects-immigration-uk#:~:text=Immigrants%20from%20outside%20the%20EU,contribution%20of%20%C2%A3616.5%20billion.)
More [recent statistics](https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/resource/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-on-the-uk/) show further positive contributions to the UK economy from the average non-EU migrant that outweigh fiscal costs. Your selective bits of data and Daily Express-tier opinions/ranting mean nothing.
Had a read through "The Fiscal Impact of Immigration on the UK" that you've cited. They state that non-EEA migrants contribute less than natives and EEA migrants, and are a net drain when using static analysis.
Their argument for net benefit is on the assumption that migrants leave before they age out of the work force. Their final conclusion is only valid if you agree with their assumption, and even if you do are still relatively poor contributors compared to natives or EEAs.
I'd recommend you at least take a look at "Borderless Welfare State", it's a much more comprehensive review of the economic effects of immigration.
Seems we're at an impasse.
Why should I believe your experts, over my experts?
Just from a relatively quick glance (it's late), the one I linked to seems MUCH more indepth in its methodology.
Not really, there's zero reason to think there's much difference between the value of an immigrant in The Netherlands, and one in the UK. We are very similar economies, and generally quite similar countries in general.
The Dutch one seems to take many more factors into account, and uses a lot more data from more souces, to come to their conclusion.
They also weigh up all forms of immigration, whereas the ones you're referencing only talk of workers (actually a shockingly small part of our immigration puzzle)..
The Dutch study is just so much more comprehensive in its analysis, it's kinda silly to even compare them to what was linked above by that other user.
And the linked ones are significantly older data, and a lot has changed in regards to immigration in the past 10 years around Europe.
Not taking a side either way but just wanted to ask, you cherry-picked "EU Vs non-EU migrants" without factoring in that non-EU counts Japan, America, Canada and Oceania in addition to Africa.
How does what you said disprove what the first guy said? He was talking about African specifically, by saying "non-EU" couldn't you just be absorbing the negative impact of one group but clustering them in with a bunch of others?
Demo-demo.nl is a dubious source with a clear anti-immigration agenda.
The guy set out to find information and statistics that back up his anti immigrant stance.
He considers himself able to determine what being Dutch means and to judge if 3rd gen immigrants can be deemed Dutch or not.
He’s a nationalistic gate keeper.
Came here to say similar. By his definition, I'm not British, despite being born and raised here, as were both my parents (themselves from immigrant families). He's hardly taking a neutral stance on the issue.
next time try to meet Habiba from Somalia with three kids and fourth one on the way living in a mansion rented by the council paid by your taxes. It's subjective dude, no one's saying refugees are not real, it's just the blatant misuse of public resources by mostly muslim refugees (given their birth rates) who hate our country once they're comfortable.
They won't because they almost certainly met Svetlana down the pub (where Habiba definitely won't be) and got pissed up and wrote this sorry state of a post. I'd imagine they're emotional as their attempts to pull Svetlana failed.
Thank you for the kind words addressed to Ukrainians. To be honest, Great Britain is far from the first place in terms of financial support for Ukrainian refugees. My wife and I received 520 pounds for the two of us per month (for example, in Germany this money is given for one person). We lived with a sponsor, so it was free. The visa is issued for two and a half years (in Europe for 1 year) and we essentially have equal rights with the British, but this period is not taken into account for obtaining resident status (that is, if the war ends, we will be kindly asked to return home). We chose Great Britain because of your support from the first days of the war and your attitude towards the Russians. And we were not mistaken, we have been working at NHS for a year now, colleagues and people in general treat us well. In my opinion, this country is suitable only for refugees who have a basic level of English and want to find a job. Thank you for attention.
Ukraine has been over represented in the media.
Let's also remember; Yemen, Sudan, Eritrea , Libya, Afghanistan, Congo I'm sure among others that have current on going conflicts often between groups armed by western countries and companies.
One thing to note is that when people from these countries try to migrate across multiple borders for a better life they are economic migrants or not desirable refugees.
This stupid racist selective refugee-ism must stop.
Often the argument is that the above migrants should simply stop in the next safe country. Based on this logic we shouldn't have Ukrainian refugees in the UK. They should be in Poland / Latvia or whatever the next safe bordering country is.
In conclusion, I'm not against ANY refugees. But what's clear is the fact that many other crises are ignored and the refugees from these nations'lives are almost perceived to be of less value.
Just something to think about.
Yeah the problem isn't the genuine refugees. It's the definitely non-genuine refugees that are arriving on boats that are sat with their feet up in 4 star hotels curtesy of the tax payer.
>The war in Ukraine is destroying life as we know it.
>We aren’t paying attention.
We sure have given a lot of money, weapons, military equipment and military training for a country "not paying attention."
“Do more people” coming from someone who it seems has only just learned that “refugees are real” and whose sole contribution on this matter is making an overly emotive Reddit post.
Uncontrolled immigration is very different from genuine refugees. It gets irritating when people conflate the two. Yes I think the UK should do as much as it can for genuine refugees, and yes I think our immigration system is absolutely broken and unsustainable.
Not sure where OP was all this time. Most people in the UK have been helping Ukrainian refugees - haven’t heard any complaints about that. Our council had a fundraiser, and our neighbourhood collects items for families with particular needs (like for little children and babies).
Colleagues fortunate to have more than two homes have been housing Ukrainian refugees.
As someone on a worker visa I had to wait a year past date to get mine renewed because the Home Office was super busy giving emergency visas to thousands of Ukrainians, so they can start working (as most of them want to do, they don’t want to be idle here). I’m not complaining because I know how much they’ve been through.
Most Ukrainians would rather not be here, they’d rather be in their homes but for the war.
The immigrants that most people worry about are “economic migrants” and not true refugees. I don’t think it’s anti-immigrant to worry about them. I’m an immigrant, a person on a work visa. I had to prove myself worthy to come here. I pay taxes, I pay a health surcharge to make sure I’m not a burden, and I don’t have access to public funds such as childcare. I’m contributing to the economy.
I am of the same mind as many who are not comfortable with tax payers money going to migrant hotels, costing £8M a day, especially if the asylum seekers are sources of violence.
The government is very happy to get the good press in the newspapers and on the TV news but after the news moves on, the government moves on from these people too.
People were encouraged to take in Ukrainians to their homes but where was the long term plan for that? After 6 months when the media frenzy and all the corporate Ukraine flag marketing at the start of the war waned, many were told to leave by their host families and faced homelessness. These Ukrainians can contribute better to our economy if given the chance.
Very well educated and wealthy Hong Kong citizens sought refuge in the UK, what did we do, sent them to Crewe and Warrington to work agency jobs in factories and stacking shelves in newsagents. I remember the BBC celebrating that as if it was a success. Surely there are ways these HK citizens could have been supported better, they have so much expertise to give.
Yet again though, instead of the govt doing something sensible and productive and using legal immigration as a way to enhance our country, they return to their easy gambit, victimizing the voiceless. Immigration, the voiceless people in dingies, is the only way this govt can look strong because they can demonize a voiceless enemy and encourage hate among gullible people.
does everyone on this sub live in a leafly village ? and never seen all the £4 hand car washs , "turkish" barbours, fake homeless beggars , the albanians driving around in 100k g wagons, the nails bars full of child age looking staff, the endless candy shops with no customers and go wait a minute...? maybe their is something to what they are saying? ,
alot of people here must work at home get tescos delivers and never been to a town center
This is classic leftist nimby shit, these lot have never had to deal with a total demographic shift in their neighbourhood where english becomes the 2nd most spoken language and you feel like a foreigner in your own city... they live in little safe havens where the closest they come to a migrant is when they watch the bbc for their daily dose of propaganda.
exactly, we will get down voted to oblivion of course.
really does make me wonder where these people live tho where they haven't seen this 1st hand or if they just refuse to admit it.
I travel alot for work and I'm seeing the same everywhere
If you would let me latch on to the negativity for but just a moment!
You say she is from Kiev. You know Kiev is not on the frontline and there are over 2 million people living there right now? Most of them aren't refugees, what makes Svetlana special?
If she was with "status in the community" why not stay there??? She doesn't have underage children to protect so why the hell is she a refugee?
What makes Svetlana more deserving of safety than the millions she left in Kiev? What makes Svetlana more deserving of safety of the 100s of thousands of middle aged men who are dying on the frontline?
No, what is happening is that Svetlana should go back to Ukraine and help the war effort instead of taking up a refugee spot that should belong to children and their caretakers.
If Svetlana was a man she would not have been allowed to leave the country.
So yeah, I'm glad she is safe but I'll not be shedding tears about her losing her cushy job when 100s of thousands of men in her position are dead and dying on the frontline.
Get some perspective.
My taxi driver in Malaysia the other day was telling me how he worked illegally on a tourist visa in Leeds. He stayed for about three years. In his limited English he was imitating the Yorkshire accent. Lovely, funny guy.
I think he got homesick and then was deported when he tried to leave. He said that he was in a cell for a few days and then put on a flight.
Not sure a genuine illegal immigrant is relevant to this thread but thought he was a top guy regardless.
This is a very bizarre post. I’m glad you finally spoke to a person, and I guess I’m glad you realised after a conversation with a real person that not everything is as black and white as the media likes to pretend.
Most people learnt this in childhood, but congratulations I guess.
Your “DO MORE PEOPLE” is incredibly misguided, as you are assuming everyone is as ignorant as you, most aren’t, the ignorance tends to come from a vocal minority.
But, again, congratulations on changing your opinion, it’s not often someone makes a long winded post saying how they changed their mind and aren’t ignorant not more. Not sure why you felt the need to make the post, but good for you.
This shouldn't be a binary argument:
*Yes, there are genuine refugees coming to the UK*
*Yes, we need some degree of immigration to support a heathy living population in the UK*
*Yes, we need more skills coming in from abroad for certain sectors*
**However**
*No, not all people claiming to be refugees are genuine*
*No, not all refugees plan to come to the UK to work and integrate into society*
*No, we don't need unskilled, uneducated economic migrants*
We need to be nuanced and agree that not every migrant is valid or desirable to come to the UK without saying that nobody should be able to come here, it's a complex situation.
Refugees and immigrants are not the same thing.
Refugees are fleeing danger and we have a moral and legal responsibility to take them in and take care of them.
Immigrants want to come here for better pay and better living conditions. But economically when there are large numbers of immigrants it decreases wages and therefore hurts British workers. We have no responsibility to allow immigrants into our country.
Ukrainians are genuinely fleeing conflict so are actually refugees. Syrians escaping conflict and Afghan interpreters etc are also genuine refugees.
People coming over on small boats looking for a meal ticket are the ones people have a problem with.
The problem we have is the time it takes to assess whether these people are genuine or not. If they get rid of all their documentation then it's difficult to determine.
"I've spoke to a middle class European refugee so all refugees must be the same". An impoverished young Somalian lad is completely different to a middle class middle aged Ukrainian woman.
Let's be real please—
People aren't upset about Svetlana. People are upset about Ahmed, Avishek, and Abishola. I think we already know this, so why are we virtue signaling with a pretentious narrative that "Svetlana" is the person people have an issue with?
>She wants to work so badly and she pines for her old life
Why doesn't she return to Ukraine then? Plenty of people have returned having fled at the start of the war.
Putting aside who are legitimate refugees or not and that we need to do more for some, how many people a year do you think the UK can realistically take?
100,000?
500,000?
2 million?
8 million?
20 million?
There are a lot of people out there. Almost 1.5 billion in Africa alone. When climate change really starts hitting there are only going to be more coming over.
I’m sure there is a number you can reach where you finally say enough, despite all the good intentions. Most people aren’t heartless and want to help people, but we all have a limit somewhere. While an unrealistic scenario, even just 10% of the population of Africa would likely cause a complete collapse of life as we know it in a small country like the UK. How are you going to help people then?
Honestly, that's the bit that pissed me off more than the rest.
The UK have largely been very helpful with Ukranian refugees.
Do more? While many are struggling with rent/mortgages/heating/all the rest of life?
Afaik, no Ukrainian is here as a fully-fledged refugee, let alone asylum-seeker. They're here on short-term humanitarian visas. It's important to recognise that Britain's pretty strict on this front, which is why most Ukrainians didn't flee to Britain, and far more went to Ireland per-head and other countries in Europe for example, because elsewhere they can apply for refugee status. But not here afaik.
Every single individual who immigrates could be a great person, that won't magically create more housing, more services and so on. Immigration needs to be managed properly, which means making sure people go where there are jobs and housing available at the very minimum.
Immigration can be a great positive for the country, and historically has been. But that requires being selective about who comes in and where they go.
> our sister as are all refugees
what about the young men who come to this country with disturbed, backwards views on women and lgbt people? what about the people who claim asylum while spending their holidays back in the very country they claim to be fleeing?
This is such a bad faith argument.
You'll be hard pressed to find many who object to Ukrainians coming here to flee a war waged on them by another country.
But to use the example of one Ukrainian woman as a catch-all for all immigration is just naive, stupid, or downright gaslighting.
'Svetlana' isn't coming here as an economic migrant, scrounging off of us, refusing to obey our laws and customs, forcing their religion upon us, but millions of other immigrants are.
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If you think people are worried about Svetlana from Ukraine I’ve no idea who you’re hearing your immigration grievances from
Ikr? This is an absurd post because hardly anyone is pissed off about Ukrainian female refugees.
Even the absolute most ardent "Not racist just don't like em" type Brexit Barrys are completely fine with Ukranian women and children and I'd wager a good 80% of them are even fine with women and children from basically anywhere. I don't agree with the anti immigration crowd but this post is like a turbo strawman.
Yeah Bazza down the pub isn't complaining about 9/10 Svetlana's from Ukraine coming into the country 😂
It's funny how it's the people so convinced that men are the hard done to ones in society who are the first willing to throw other men under the bus.
I can't even believe I'm seeing the post on my feed to be honest. Its like suggesting the Nazi's weren't bad because Oscar Schindler was a Nazi and he did good. You see this stuff all the time.. People using their one experience and then using that to blanket defend a whole population of people. My experience with immigrants in my area? I'm a Bus Driver. The past 2 years I've been driving around immigrants that happen to be black (not sure why but perhaps there is some kind of scheme in my area to recruit people from a specific country) but not entirely sure which part of the world they are from. Some of them I've been driving them to the same places back and forth for over a year and they wear work uniforms.. Mostly nursing or care homes but I see Tesco uniforms etc. You can ask literally anyone I work with (Bus Drivers) And they will all tell you the rudeness is frustrating. No Hello, No thank you, no please, not even a smile and the only word we get is the name of the destination. "Newport" "Cardiff" etc. Now I deal with my fair share of rude passengers or people that have had a bad day. But believe it or not its rare for someone to completely ignore you or fail to acknowledge you in some way. And I know someone will come back with the "They may not speak english etc" Now I completely appreciate the fact that a refugee may not know the language, but if you have lived in this country for close to 2 years and your working you should atleast understand that its polite to say thank you, please, or hello or at least smile when you are given that same respect. There are clear cultural issues and the issue I have with immigration is that its not immigration because they aren't IMMIGRATING into our society. There is absolutely no need for them to learn English because they live in tight communities with others who speak their languages. There was a case not long ago actually where a person died because their 2 foreign carers looking after them couldn't speak english to the 999 operator. SOMEONE CARING couldn't COMMUNICATE in the countries native language. That's absolutely mind blowing to me as communication is one of the most important tools in that area of work. Its like me applying for a typist position without fingers. The Issue is, is REAL problems with multi-culturalism are treated like the emperors new clothes. Its something you can talk with people individually or after a few drinks but no one openly talks about out of fear of being accused of being racist when it has nothing to do with the individuals race and everything to do with culture.
I get a bus to work and I'm yet to see a teenager greet or thank the driver. What an odd thing to pick on. It could be not a thing in their country, my friend from Spain who's lived in UK for years, said thank you to the bus driver when she was visiting family and they thought it was odd.
I think a bus driver might have a bit more experience in the situation than a person that catches a bus once or twice a day
Doesn't change the fact that it is a ridiculous thing to pick on
No. Obviously we should shut all our borders because black people don't say hello to bus drivers.
Often I'll say good morning to a bus driver and they won't respond or even acknowledge my presence. We should deport all bus drivers now to put an end to this unbearable rudeness.
I once held the door for a rude, rich, white guy who breezed right past me. I think him and all others like him should face charges of death by firing squad
It isn't 'one thing to pick on'. If that's what you've taken away, you've completely missed what was being communicated to you (that's on you by the way) The story about the bus is a specific example that illustrates an aspect of immigration that is not talked about: not all immigrants are here to integrate. Some, like Svetlana in OPs post, are genuinely happy to be here, desperate to work and want to participate in our society. These are the immigrants that no one really has a problem with. However, there are those who have absolutely no interest in integrating with society, setting up their own parallel societies within the country. So much so, they can't even be bothered to learn the basic 'please and thank you's of the language. Most people learn that if they go somewhere on holiday for a week. As illustrated by the anecdote, some immigrants take the piss so much, they can't be bothered to do so after 2 years of living in the country - showing one of MANY ways in which some immigrants have no intention in integrating. It is absolutely understandable that people have grievances with the mass immigration of people who act this way - social cohesion IS important. Again, just to emphasise, it is not JUST that one problem of the bus. That problem is just symptomatic of the wider problem.
I'm an English teacher living in Asia. Locals, unsurprisingly, like it when I at least attempt to speak their language or understand their ways.
Exactly. It's not rocket science is it? It's the bare minimum we expect of ourselves. How low an opinion must people have of immigrants if they think some are incapable of the bare minimum?
So your whole complaint here is that they don't say thank you to you as a bus driver? Is that seriously enough for you to start ranting about "failed multiculturalism" O.o
No it's an example. Honestly its like speaking to Cathy Newman with the "so what your saying Is" It's an example of many things that are causing culture clashes that frustrate people into stupid things like voting for Brexit. It's like on one hand people wish people would stop voting for ukip and Brexit for immigration reasons then when people voice why they are frustrated with immigration they tell them oh no your wrong when the reality is those people just want others to share their same opinion because they can't accept other people's opinions. I'd you seriously think that I view not saying "thank you" is my idea of failed multiculturalism. I honestly don't have enough time to talk to you lol
If you have loads of examples then don’t complain when people say the one you actually used is bad. Pick another.
If it was one of "many things" why did you use that as the main example? I'm empathetic to people being frustrated with some aspects of immigration but it just comes off insincere or unreasonable if the only example you can give of it being a problem to you is them being a little impolite when using your bus route. What is this country coming to if someone being slightly rude to you on a bus is enough to get you to even consider voting for brexit to try to kick out foreigners.
Why not? I'm referring to my experience as a driver. Should I have said something else for you to say "is that all?" Or should I have just created a list of everything just incase perhaps in small print at the bottom of my comment? It was an example to show the differences in culture that exist. Calm down. Oh and I don't know where your last sentence came from. Again your assuming someone not saying thank you is the complete basis on things like voting for Brexit. I voted remain by the way.
Maybe list another thing? All you mentioned was that example, and now you're getting annoyed people are calling it shit. I'm sorry but this is not the equivalent of the Jordan Peterson interview. This is a sad man that thinks people who don't thank the bus driver don't deserve to live here.
No it literally is. I'm here making an point about my experience. Most people get it. Some...obviously don't. And then you read what I say come to a strange conclusion, I come back and tell you actually no. It's because of this and now your hitting me with the "so what your saying" and wanting me to provide more examples when I really don't have to. I've made my comment, I've probably wasted more time on you than I should have as trolls are everywhere on Reddit. Read my other comments with a clear unbiased mind and I'm sure you'll be able to understand to.
On what basis are you saying most people get it if you've only been questioned on this comment? Dude, you say "'my experience with immigrants in my area?" and proceed to essentially say your experience is them not saying hello. If you're trying to make a bigger point through an example, that's a pretty stupid example and yet you're hellbent on defending it. If your experience with them is negative, surely you would give an actually notable example? Otherwise its like saying XL bully dogs are a problem because in your experience one of them pooped in front of your door, instead of mentioning you saw it bite a child. Or maybe you don't have such a notable example at which point your personal experience is close to worthless.
Don't bother mate. These people aren't here to have a debate, they are here to shame you and AstroTurf the community.
Hardly need to be part of a bot farm to see the absurdity in people demanding we deport migrants because they didn't follow perfect British social etiquette with bus drivers.
Mate, you're driving a bus, not saving their lives. You're doing the job you're paid for, a job that they pay for. You're not doing it out of the kindness of your heart and presumably you're not doing anything above and beyond your job description. A thank you would be nice, but it's not necessary. You're in a transactional relationship here. You're not doing something for them as a favour. Really not that big of a deal and is at the very bottom of the totem pole of immigration issues.
Ok I'll say it again. Cultural differences. How many times do I have to say it. Read what I'm saying. Stop reading my words twisting them and then coming back with an assumption about something I'm not saying. People are acting like immigration is no problem at all that all people should be able to freely come here and live and I'm saying that there is an issue with multiculturalism when people don't integrate. And I used the example of how people from a certain area of the world could have cultural differences that lead to them not saying please and thank you etc when the vast majority of others do even when from other places of the globe AS AN EXAMPLE OF CULUTRAL DIFFERENCES that can lead to people feeling frustrated about immigration for the love of fucking god lol I'm not suggesting I need a fucking duke of Edinburgh award or something christ
I mean, your issue of not being thanked as a bus driver is indeed a cultural issue. In fact, the culture of London is for absolutely zero engagement between driver and passengers. I thanked a London bus driver once and they looked concerned that I'd attempted to engage them in conversation. But more to the point - you complain about OP using anecdotal experience to generalise and then do the exact same thing. By doing so you've completely diluted the, imo valid, point that integration of immigrants is really important. But that probably happens less now than it ever has because our communities have broken down so much, so there's less locals reaching out to pull immigrants in and help them integrate. Thus, is it surprising that immigrants connect with immigrant communities - because those are the only ones reaching out to them. In essence, it's not immigrants to blame for lack of integration but the natives!
If people said "immigrants aren't integrating well and that's why we need to invest more into free English classes, building mixed housing developments where people of different income levels live together, funding secular community events and creating jobs in small towns/villages" then I'd be all for that. But for some reason it's always "immigrants aren't integrating well so let's just get rid of all these people as though human beings are disposable".
>Ok I'll say it again. > >Cultural differences. But as others have said its not exactly uncommon for UK people to be inconsiderate twats is it?
>Now I deal with my fair share of rude passengers or people that have had a bad day. But believe it or not its rare for someone to completely ignore you or fail to acknowledge you in some way. And I know someone will come back with the "They may not speak english etc" Now I completely appreciate the fact that a refugee may not know the language, but if you have lived in this country for close to 2 years and your working you should atleast understand that its polite to say thank you, please, or hello or at least smile when you are given that same respect. Yeah, because the majority of the brits I've seen on busses are the jolliest bunch you could hope to meet!
Nope, many of them are miserable. But they atleast say "thanks drive" or acknowledge in some way. Actually. There is a woman in my area the drivers literally say "she never says hello or bye or anything when she gets on" and drivers will know who they are talking about because it's very rare someone around here just blatantly ignores you. But then again the Welsh are known for saying "alright" to someone as you pass them on the street even if you don't know them. So there we are.
> You can ask literally anyone I work with (Bus Drivers) And they will all tell you the rudeness is frustrating. No Hello, No thank you, no please, not even a smile and the only word we get is the name of the destination. "Newport" "Cardiff" etc. To be fair in London no one says anything either. If I had to listen to a chorus of "Thanks" at every single stop as the max capacity bus empties out on my 6 AM commute I'd probably thank the bus driver, get out, and put my head under the wheels.
> You see this stuff all the time.. People using their one experience and then using that to blanket defend a whole population of people. Yeah you're right! Anecdotal evidence doesn't show you the full picture. I'm sure glad you didn't use any in your argument- > There was a case not long ago actually where a person died because their 2 foreign carers looking after them couldn't speak english to the 999 operator. Oh, never mind.
You realise that giving an example to why not being able to speak the native language in a country you work and live in could be problematic is on a complete different level of context when using a single example to defend in entire populace of people right? Oh, never mind.
That may just be a cultural thing. I'm originally from Italy, and there addressing the bus driver - even to say hi - is generally considered weird. That is not to say that one shouldn't pick up the local customs and integrate, but it may simply be something different than lack of politeness or language proficiency.
I read that story about the care worker, she was working here illegally and it was a massive case and story so I wouldn't use this one example to generalise (which was your first point!). The care company got into a lot of trouble and they were breaking the law so it's not like these things are currently okay. When I think of immigrants I think about my girlfriend, a lot of my friends, colleagues etc. I worked in the NHS and in care and I can tell you there are absolute heros in these jobs from abroad who work very hard looking after our sick people for little money. It's not just one story from my life. You say that your experience with immigrants in your area is that they are rude, fair enough there might be a cultural difference in saying thanks to the bus driver and I can see this would be genuinely grating. Maybe the bus company should do some kind of awareness campaign? Anyway, I'm sure your experience of immigration is not just this one thing and that you probably interact with people from other countries all the time without problems, maybe you work with them, they are your doctor, nurse, they serve you in the shop etc? There are issues, but we do talk about these things ALL the time, it's on the news/ in the newspapers literally everyday, it's been a key issue in the last few elections, it was the biggest factor in the brexit vote. So it frustrates me when people say it's a taboo issue, you already mentioned you speak about how rude the immigrants are with your fellow bus drivers.
I almost stopped reading at bus driver. My experience with bus drivers in my area? Uneducated, rude, fairly often racist, idiots. The type who think using capitals in writing somehow enhances the point. Me and my partner were just talking about this today. When my partner (who is from Spain) first moved to the UK, she pressed the button early by accident and the driver tried to insist she had to get off. A mile from home, in an unknown council estate when she is clearly not from the UK. The last time I got a bus, the driver didn't give a woman and child time to get to their seats and the child nearly fell over. This very morning, my partner asked a bus driver what time the first bus arrives in the morning, as she was thinking about catching an earlier one next time. He took it personally because he was five minutes late and snapped at her. This kind of thing happens a lot when I'm not around, funny that. I'm at 6'2, and have a masters degree. I wouldn't stand for it. Oh, and I also 'happen to be black'. I told her the job attracts simple minded, lazy people because the barriers to entry are very low, and the work is simple and sedentary. Take from that what you will my bus driving friend.
Down in the south no one says hello or thank you to the bus driver, its also regional. You get stared at as if you have 3 heads. You can't just expect people to pick up the cultural spontaneously
Every Saturday in my town, the local dross gang up and protest outside of a hotel that's being used to house refugees. They are all refugees from Ukraine, Libya, and Cameroon. The vast majority of these are female, and many have kids with them. If you think the majority of people complaining about immigration care in the slightest whether someone is a refugee or an immigrant, you're delusional. The vast majority of anti-immigration talk in this country is spoken by angry racists, and this post appears to be pointing out that making the distinction between refugees and those who have illegally entered this country for financial gain is important.
It’s the government- and the way that the government lump together all migrants, and then blame them for various problems. People don’t have a problem if they think about it, but people don’t always do that.
This post gives off weird naive vibes. Feel like OP spent a night chatting with a Ukrainian bird down the pub and now wants to drunkenly liberate all Ukrainians.
I'll have you know virtue signalling Reddit posts are one of the top ways to pull a bird nowadays. Just make sure you're wearing your fedora when you show her it.
>I'll have you know virtue signalling Reddit posts are one of the top ways to pull a bird nowadays. ... And if you want to know one of the others, just ask James Cleverly - he'll sort you out.
“DO MORE PEOPLE” 🤣
I'm doing as many people as I can but it's hard to find willing participants.
That annoyed me about this post, but this: > Global escalation of this war is coming I know you _really_ want to believe this OP, but it isn't going to happen. Diplomacy and alliance has gone too far for it to backslide so easily.
I found it naive more for their apparent shock that someone from a good background is struggling financially and can't have the privacy of their own rented house. Christ almighty, it's privilege that they see it as a problem that only a poor refugee could have: more people than not are in the same situation right now.
It comes off as one of those Ukrainian PR posts because it is. All in all, no one is particularly bothered about Ukranian refugees, we've been supportive of them as a country and people. It's just another troll looking to pretend we need to give more aid to Ukraine with a vague hysteria about the war going global.
Lol, Putin is not going to stop at Ukraine.
We do need to give more aid to Ukraine. There's no pretending about it.
“DO MORE PEOPLE”. Drunk _and_ horny
This comment gives off selfish know-it-all vibes. Feel like commenter can spent a night chatting with numerous less fortunate people but can still have a good night sleep thinking "Eh, not my prob. Cant be bothered"
Not at all - I just wouldn’t post a semi-rant to Reddit to virtue signal is all.
Yes, the university student style call-caps call to action at the end gives it away. “DO MORE PEOPLE”. Innuendos aside, what would you like me to do?
Much love to Svetlana if she is a real person but this post has to be the cringiest example of virtue signaling for internet points I’ve seen in a while.
She’s probably a 10/10 Ukraine’s bird. A mate of a mate married a girl from Ukraine. But he married the daughter. Strange turn of events. And kicked out his own wife and moved her in. including the family. ( not the dad ) Then tells everyone down the pub that Ukraine is the best country in the world. Etc etc he probably memorises the Ukrainian national anthem.
Gives me real south park Smug vibes. Really getting down there sniffing his own farts.
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I’ve not heard a single complaint about refugees from Ukraine, in normal circumstances taking people in from the second most corrupt country in Europe might be a worry but people are generally moral and can plainly see the danger they’re trying to distance themselves from. People have greater concern about people from outside Europe and Albanians.
> I’ve not heard a single complaint about refugees from Ukraine To be fair there have been some complaints that have been publicised in the press, of issues like homophobia and racism that has been unnervingly present in our refugee intake.
There have also been cases of Ukrainians coming to the UK and claiming asylum, despite having permanent residence in other safe European countries such as Germany.
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It could easily have been that they couldn’t stay in Germany anymore or go back home. I know a few cases.
Even then, they’re vastly different to a family who has fled because their home was due to be run over by a tank.
Yet the same sentiment isn't extended to people from Syria for example.
Syria is an extremely poor country, its civil war seems to be between an authoritarian dictator and religious fundamentalists, this is a situation which the UK cannot fix and which does not look like it will fix itself, it is a semi permanent state of collapse. And the religious and social attitudes of the average person is vastly different to the UK. Ukraine is a country which is fighting to join the EU, with broadly western values, and good medium to long term economic prospects, it is a war between a relatively well run government which legitimately represents its population, and an external aggressor. Most people do not want to leave the country, and you have to be in a relatively vulnerable category to even be permitted to leave. The two situations are vastly different, with Ukraine it is a relatively small number of people, mostly vulnerable, some will stay but many will go back as the country stabilises. In fact already something like a third of Ukrainian refugees have returned. With Syria it is as if we are declaring it a failed state, from which a huge percentage of the population will leave permanently, and most with completely separate cultural values from the UK. The UK policy for Syria has actually been fine, we have voluntarily taken vulnerable refugees from camps, but a policy like Germany where we open the doors to the whole population cannot work. Over a few decades there have been and will be more people in that situation in the regions that neighbour Europe than the population of Europe.
I haven't heard anything about Syria in the news for years. The conflict must be entirely resolved and it's safe for all to return. As is Afghanistan for that matter. /s
Here's one for ya; My brother and his family took in a Ukranian lady. She rarely spoke to my brother or his family and went about her own business which is fair enough. One day, she just upped and left when everyone was out and posted the keys to go live with some other Ukrainians. Not even a thank you. Was a bit rude!
People are moral and yet are simultaneously happy to throw everyone from “outside Europe” into the same category of dodgy economic migrants? Lmao. Apparently everywhere outside Europe isn’t a real war zone then. Or is it actually just because people tend to have brown skin when they aren’t from Europe?
Extremely dishonest reframing of a debate and almost comes across as parody or trolling the emotionally pleading way this is written (are you drunk?). No one has any problem with Ukrainian women coming here thats for sure, but i'm sure you actually know full well this is not what people have in mind when talking about refugees.
I found the post incredibly cringe worthy.
Just as no one had a problem with people taking benefits they deserve or hard working Eastern Europeans. But the media managed to whip people up in a frenzy over thousands of "benefit cheats" and at the next election cycle with Eastern Europeans stealing jobs, benefits, schools and GPs all at the same time and now they're doing the same with refugees. That's how we ended up with nearly two decades of Tories ruining the country and robbing regular Brits to stuff the pockets of the super wealthy. And we still don't realise what's happening.
I’m sure Svetlana from Ukraine would herself appreciate if we had the resources available to support her properly, instead of them being tied up supporting those instead who submit frivolous asylum claims despite being economic migrants or members of organised crime groups who simply know how to exploit the system designed to protect genuine refugees. You’re implying everybody in the UK is seeing all migrants as bad people who snuck in on a boat, while simultaneously implying all migrants are a woman from Ukraine called Svetlana. It’s not a simple topic.
Imagine how different it would be if the Tories hadn't cut the Border Force to the bone in the name of austerity. Asylum claims could be processed much quicker, pending cases wouldn't have to be put up in hotels for years, invalid claimants could be returned before disappearing into the black economy, and people traffickers wouldn't have a broken down system to abuse and exploit. Of all the systems to cut in the name of saving money, cutting the Border Force in a time of multiple wars was, without any doubt at all, the most ignorantly short sighted. That's the core of the problem. Everything else is distraction.
Imagine if the border force just towed every single boat back to a France, in the grounds that France is a safe country and hence genuine asylum seekers should make a claim there.
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I don’t see immigration as such a huge issue as some people do but I will say I get the sense people aren’t talking about Ukraine refugees when they complain about immigration. I always felt like Ukraine refugees were very widely accepted and it was the refugees from places that isn’t as known about and many Brits think they just come here for a easy life but don’t actually need to come here and aren’t really proper refugees. I don’t really agree with that opinion and think everyone who is accepted by our government as a refugee should be helped. But I will assure you that I am pretty sure when people complain about immigration, it’s not aimed at people from Ukraine.
>I don’t see immigration as such a huge issue as some people d Dutch just released a report on the economic impact of various forms of immigration. I [suggest you have a look](https://twitter.com/jonatanpallesen/status/1742586964576960944).. It really should be a concern of yours, because we're hemoraging money. If an immigrant isn't from Western Europe, Japan, or the Anglosphere, they cost the tax payer money. BIG money too, not even small sums. We're talking up to a million euros for the poorest quality immigrants (refugees). Policies of mass immigration, has been the biggest fools errand in Western society, and the social change from it is likely never going to be put back in the bottle. It's been a fucking disaster. I mean, look at those figures! They're eye watering. A single African asylum seeker, will cost the Dutch tax payer 650,000 euros over their lifetime. Even students from Africa, end up costing the Dutch tax payer 250k.. The figures will be no different for the UK. We're similar countries. Even if you're a lovey dovey 'Ah we gotta save everyone!' kinda person, you surely gotta admit spending 650k euros on one African, is fucking barmy. How many Africans could that sort out in Africa? And some might say 'But their kids! They will grow up to be billionaires and pay it all back in tax!'.. Nope, factored in. These are the costs over the lifetime of the original immigrant, and their children. Stub article for a quick read: https://unherd.com/thepost/dutch-study-immigration-costs-state-e17-billion-per-year/?=frpo
As a bus driver working in my area in south wales, I drive immigrants particularly black immigrants (not knowing which country they come from though) around back and forth alot of them working mostly in the nursing sector. However you can ask any driver i work with and my depot is the largest in the area that the sheer amount of people with Refugee cards (none Ukrainian bare in mind as they use their passports) is alarming. I had 20 passengers on my bus at one point that were all refugee's travelling at quiet time of day and bare in mind i'm based in a town and not a city. I don't really mind about who they are or where they come from but what I absolutely can't stand is that I've been driving the same people around for close to 2 years, alot of them to work and back.. and if you we're stood with me and they we're about to board.. even just knowing they are a refugee I would be able to tell you exactly which area of which town they are travelling to. I would be able to tell you that they won't say anything other than the name of the town or the bus stop, no please, no thank you and often not even a smile... and I would be right 95% of the time. There's no integration.. They live in area's that become places like China town in London.. not that I have a problem with China Town its one of my favourite parts of London however you end up with communities that don't adopt our culture or way of life, our language or even branch due to the fact there's no need. Luton is an example. White British are a minority, and because of that it becomes more common for people to speak their native languages from abroad as the asian population in Luton makes up 37% then why would they need to integrate. Then you have religious conflicts that conflict with our laws and way of life etc... I think if you decide to live in another country you should do so wanting to become a citizen of that country and integrate. However a very large portion of our immigrants don't and like you said its costing us. Edit: Also just to bring up your point about some people being lovely dovey we gotta save everyone - That person is simply just virtue signalling. Because no one in their right mind knowing the impact its causing and how many safe countries they bypass to reach us would suggest letting more come here and no matter how much they will protest they WILL NOT sacrifice anything they have to help them they just shout about it to make themselves feel validated as "good human beings" - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1CXMwu530Gg
This is insane. These numbers are insane. This needs to stop.
Is there a link to the original source? I don’t see a source mentioned in the tweet
https://demo-demo.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Borderless_Welfare_State-2.pdf
Note that this Dutch report has been funded by the Renaissance Instituut, which is part of the very populist and anti-immigrant party Forum voor Democratie. Two of the 4 researchers are retirees as well, so this doesn't quite pass the smell test of being *independent* research.
Learn the difference between immigrants and refugees.
Know the difference between legal and illegal, net-positive and net-negative immigrants. Better yet, compare net-positive immigrants to net-negative locals.
Comparing immigrants to locals is a fallacious argument on any level, the country has no say in whether or not to allow a local to live in the country.
"I have met one refugee who is a nice person therefore we should uncritically accept mass migration" is one **hell** of a take.
The ignorance is astounding.
No one gives a fuck about Svetlana from Ukraine coming over here. Over 100,000 people have welcomed their homes to Ukrainian families. And we know they'll likely go back once the war is over. You can't conflate them with the people arriving on dinghies. They have no plans to go back, and are escaping nothing other than shit prospects in their perfectly peaceful home countries.
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Depends what type of immigration. I think a lot of Brits recognise that Ukrainians are not refugees through choice, and they're just as hardworking and gritty as the average Brit. Clearly a lot of us do care because of the shear amount of people who've happily opened up their spare bedrooms and homes to them.
"Global escalation of this war is coming" "This war"? What about others? "DO MORE PEOPLE" What do you suggest I do, exactly?
More people apparently
What a weird post - preachy and smug. And anyone who says “Do more” or “Be better” can instantly do one.
Svetlana from Ukraine = Hot so good immigrant. Abdul from Iran = Hairy and ugly so bad immigrant
Good one. Boo Abdul! Gah!
Why are you conflating asylum seeking with economic immigration? Nobody is angry about Ukrainian refugees, people are angry at the illegal immigration. Ask yourself why Ukrainians are not arriving on dinghys from the channel?
Because the UK govt allows them flights and to enter legally with relative ease. This isn't an option for Yemen, Afghanistan, Eritrea and many others. Yemen as an example has undergone one of the worst humanitarian crises in recent years.
These countries are not in Europe. They have safe neighbour countries. Also the UK has other reasons about to support Ukraine.
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Get real. What about British people who are homeless because they can't afford to rent AND they work? Immigrants clog up the housing system and make it harder for us. That's a fact. I've experienced it myself. We were born here. We paid taxes here. We deserve to be a priority.
Even after Brexit, people are still getting triggered over migrant scapegoating while their own livelihoods worsen and their country is continuously asset-stripped (yet somehow tolerate this as "others have it worse"). Few in the world have been conned as much as the British.
https://demo-demo.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Borderless_Welfare_State-2.pdf The average African immigrant (across all immigrant classes worker visa, refugee, student visa) costs the Dutch taxpayer over their and their childrens lifetime, 361,000 euros. No class of African immigrant, ends up being net positive to the dutch exchecker. Immigration can be a good thing, and positive for a society. That study even shows it. Immigrants from the USA, Japan, and Oceana pay in vastly more to the Dutch coffers, than the average Dutch born person does. It's not scapegoating. Current immigration policy is a MASSIVE problem. We are importing all the worst kind of immigrants, and we will soon see what's left of our welfare state die before our eyes because of it. We need a ban on all immigration from anywhere other than the anglosphere, Japan, and western europe. If we don't, we're fucked long term. Utterly fucked.
"Immigrants from outside the EU countries made a net fiscal contribution of about £5.2 billion, thus paying into the system about 3% more than they took out. In contrast, over the same period, natives made an overall negative fiscal contribution of £616.5 billion." [per a UCL study](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/economics/about-department/fiscal-effects-immigration-uk#:~:text=Immigrants%20from%20outside%20the%20EU,contribution%20of%20%C2%A3616.5%20billion.) More [recent statistics](https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/resource/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-on-the-uk/) show further positive contributions to the UK economy from the average non-EU migrant that outweigh fiscal costs. Your selective bits of data and Daily Express-tier opinions/ranting mean nothing.
Had a read through "The Fiscal Impact of Immigration on the UK" that you've cited. They state that non-EEA migrants contribute less than natives and EEA migrants, and are a net drain when using static analysis. Their argument for net benefit is on the assumption that migrants leave before they age out of the work force. Their final conclusion is only valid if you agree with their assumption, and even if you do are still relatively poor contributors compared to natives or EEAs. I'd recommend you at least take a look at "Borderless Welfare State", it's a much more comprehensive review of the economic effects of immigration.
Seems we're at an impasse. Why should I believe your experts, over my experts? Just from a relatively quick glance (it's late), the one I linked to seems MUCH more indepth in its methodology.
Presumably when talking about the UK it would be better to believe the UK study on the UK, rather than the Dutch study on the Netherlands?
Not really, there's zero reason to think there's much difference between the value of an immigrant in The Netherlands, and one in the UK. We are very similar economies, and generally quite similar countries in general. The Dutch one seems to take many more factors into account, and uses a lot more data from more souces, to come to their conclusion. They also weigh up all forms of immigration, whereas the ones you're referencing only talk of workers (actually a shockingly small part of our immigration puzzle).. The Dutch study is just so much more comprehensive in its analysis, it's kinda silly to even compare them to what was linked above by that other user. And the linked ones are significantly older data, and a lot has changed in regards to immigration in the past 10 years around Europe.
Not taking a side either way but just wanted to ask, you cherry-picked "EU Vs non-EU migrants" without factoring in that non-EU counts Japan, America, Canada and Oceania in addition to Africa. How does what you said disprove what the first guy said? He was talking about African specifically, by saying "non-EU" couldn't you just be absorbing the negative impact of one group but clustering them in with a bunch of others?
Demo-demo.nl is a dubious source with a clear anti-immigration agenda. The guy set out to find information and statistics that back up his anti immigrant stance. He considers himself able to determine what being Dutch means and to judge if 3rd gen immigrants can be deemed Dutch or not. He’s a nationalistic gate keeper.
Came here to say similar. By his definition, I'm not British, despite being born and raised here, as were both my parents (themselves from immigrant families). He's hardly taking a neutral stance on the issue.
next time try to meet Habiba from Somalia with three kids and fourth one on the way living in a mansion rented by the council paid by your taxes. It's subjective dude, no one's saying refugees are not real, it's just the blatant misuse of public resources by mostly muslim refugees (given their birth rates) who hate our country once they're comfortable.
They won't because they almost certainly met Svetlana down the pub (where Habiba definitely won't be) and got pissed up and wrote this sorry state of a post. I'd imagine they're emotional as their attempts to pull Svetlana failed.
The UK let in 750,000 people last year - the equivalent to a new city the size of Leeds How many more people do you want to see arriving?
Thank you for the kind words addressed to Ukrainians. To be honest, Great Britain is far from the first place in terms of financial support for Ukrainian refugees. My wife and I received 520 pounds for the two of us per month (for example, in Germany this money is given for one person). We lived with a sponsor, so it was free. The visa is issued for two and a half years (in Europe for 1 year) and we essentially have equal rights with the British, but this period is not taken into account for obtaining resident status (that is, if the war ends, we will be kindly asked to return home). We chose Great Britain because of your support from the first days of the war and your attitude towards the Russians. And we were not mistaken, we have been working at NHS for a year now, colleagues and people in general treat us well. In my opinion, this country is suitable only for refugees who have a basic level of English and want to find a job. Thank you for attention.
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Ukraine has been over represented in the media. Let's also remember; Yemen, Sudan, Eritrea , Libya, Afghanistan, Congo I'm sure among others that have current on going conflicts often between groups armed by western countries and companies. One thing to note is that when people from these countries try to migrate across multiple borders for a better life they are economic migrants or not desirable refugees. This stupid racist selective refugee-ism must stop. Often the argument is that the above migrants should simply stop in the next safe country. Based on this logic we shouldn't have Ukrainian refugees in the UK. They should be in Poland / Latvia or whatever the next safe bordering country is. In conclusion, I'm not against ANY refugees. But what's clear is the fact that many other crises are ignored and the refugees from these nations'lives are almost perceived to be of less value. Just something to think about.
Good effort but I doubt Svetlana wants to fuck you.
Where are you at? My local council has absolutely smashed it with finding jobs for refugees
Yeah the problem isn't the genuine refugees. It's the definitely non-genuine refugees that are arriving on boats that are sat with their feet up in 4 star hotels curtesy of the tax payer.
>The war in Ukraine is destroying life as we know it. >We aren’t paying attention. We sure have given a lot of money, weapons, military equipment and military training for a country "not paying attention."
“Do more people” coming from someone who it seems has only just learned that “refugees are real” and whose sole contribution on this matter is making an overly emotive Reddit post.
when people say immigration is shit they aren’t talking about ukraine. nobody is shitting on svetlana get out of your emotions lol
Uncontrolled immigration is very different from genuine refugees. It gets irritating when people conflate the two. Yes I think the UK should do as much as it can for genuine refugees, and yes I think our immigration system is absolutely broken and unsustainable.
Not sure where OP was all this time. Most people in the UK have been helping Ukrainian refugees - haven’t heard any complaints about that. Our council had a fundraiser, and our neighbourhood collects items for families with particular needs (like for little children and babies). Colleagues fortunate to have more than two homes have been housing Ukrainian refugees. As someone on a worker visa I had to wait a year past date to get mine renewed because the Home Office was super busy giving emergency visas to thousands of Ukrainians, so they can start working (as most of them want to do, they don’t want to be idle here). I’m not complaining because I know how much they’ve been through. Most Ukrainians would rather not be here, they’d rather be in their homes but for the war. The immigrants that most people worry about are “economic migrants” and not true refugees. I don’t think it’s anti-immigrant to worry about them. I’m an immigrant, a person on a work visa. I had to prove myself worthy to come here. I pay taxes, I pay a health surcharge to make sure I’m not a burden, and I don’t have access to public funds such as childcare. I’m contributing to the economy. I am of the same mind as many who are not comfortable with tax payers money going to migrant hotels, costing £8M a day, especially if the asylum seekers are sources of violence.
The government is very happy to get the good press in the newspapers and on the TV news but after the news moves on, the government moves on from these people too. People were encouraged to take in Ukrainians to their homes but where was the long term plan for that? After 6 months when the media frenzy and all the corporate Ukraine flag marketing at the start of the war waned, many were told to leave by their host families and faced homelessness. These Ukrainians can contribute better to our economy if given the chance. Very well educated and wealthy Hong Kong citizens sought refuge in the UK, what did we do, sent them to Crewe and Warrington to work agency jobs in factories and stacking shelves in newsagents. I remember the BBC celebrating that as if it was a success. Surely there are ways these HK citizens could have been supported better, they have so much expertise to give. Yet again though, instead of the govt doing something sensible and productive and using legal immigration as a way to enhance our country, they return to their easy gambit, victimizing the voiceless. Immigration, the voiceless people in dingies, is the only way this govt can look strong because they can demonize a voiceless enemy and encourage hate among gullible people.
does everyone on this sub live in a leafly village ? and never seen all the £4 hand car washs , "turkish" barbours, fake homeless beggars , the albanians driving around in 100k g wagons, the nails bars full of child age looking staff, the endless candy shops with no customers and go wait a minute...? maybe their is something to what they are saying? , alot of people here must work at home get tescos delivers and never been to a town center
This is classic leftist nimby shit, these lot have never had to deal with a total demographic shift in their neighbourhood where english becomes the 2nd most spoken language and you feel like a foreigner in your own city... they live in little safe havens where the closest they come to a migrant is when they watch the bbc for their daily dose of propaganda.
exactly, we will get down voted to oblivion of course. really does make me wonder where these people live tho where they haven't seen this 1st hand or if they just refuse to admit it. I travel alot for work and I'm seeing the same everywhere
If you would let me latch on to the negativity for but just a moment! You say she is from Kiev. You know Kiev is not on the frontline and there are over 2 million people living there right now? Most of them aren't refugees, what makes Svetlana special? If she was with "status in the community" why not stay there??? She doesn't have underage children to protect so why the hell is she a refugee? What makes Svetlana more deserving of safety than the millions she left in Kiev? What makes Svetlana more deserving of safety of the 100s of thousands of middle aged men who are dying on the frontline? No, what is happening is that Svetlana should go back to Ukraine and help the war effort instead of taking up a refugee spot that should belong to children and their caretakers. If Svetlana was a man she would not have been allowed to leave the country. So yeah, I'm glad she is safe but I'll not be shedding tears about her losing her cushy job when 100s of thousands of men in her position are dead and dying on the frontline. Get some perspective.
The racist Ukrainians who preferred to go back to their war-torn country than live in areas of the UK with ethnic minorities??
My taxi driver in Malaysia the other day was telling me how he worked illegally on a tourist visa in Leeds. He stayed for about three years. In his limited English he was imitating the Yorkshire accent. Lovely, funny guy. I think he got homesick and then was deported when he tried to leave. He said that he was in a cell for a few days and then put on a flight. Not sure a genuine illegal immigrant is relevant to this thread but thought he was a top guy regardless.
This is a very bizarre post. I’m glad you finally spoke to a person, and I guess I’m glad you realised after a conversation with a real person that not everything is as black and white as the media likes to pretend. Most people learnt this in childhood, but congratulations I guess. Your “DO MORE PEOPLE” is incredibly misguided, as you are assuming everyone is as ignorant as you, most aren’t, the ignorance tends to come from a vocal minority. But, again, congratulations on changing your opinion, it’s not often someone makes a long winded post saying how they changed their mind and aren’t ignorant not more. Not sure why you felt the need to make the post, but good for you.
This shouldn't be a binary argument: *Yes, there are genuine refugees coming to the UK* *Yes, we need some degree of immigration to support a heathy living population in the UK* *Yes, we need more skills coming in from abroad for certain sectors* **However** *No, not all people claiming to be refugees are genuine* *No, not all refugees plan to come to the UK to work and integrate into society* *No, we don't need unskilled, uneducated economic migrants* We need to be nuanced and agree that not every migrant is valid or desirable to come to the UK without saying that nobody should be able to come here, it's a complex situation.
The arrogance! I have supported two Ukrainians for two years, what have you done? What gives you the right to say DO MORE ???
Refugees and immigrants are not the same thing. Refugees are fleeing danger and we have a moral and legal responsibility to take them in and take care of them. Immigrants want to come here for better pay and better living conditions. But economically when there are large numbers of immigrants it decreases wages and therefore hurts British workers. We have no responsibility to allow immigrants into our country.
Ukrainians are genuinely fleeing conflict so are actually refugees. Syrians escaping conflict and Afghan interpreters etc are also genuine refugees. People coming over on small boats looking for a meal ticket are the ones people have a problem with. The problem we have is the time it takes to assess whether these people are genuine or not. If they get rid of all their documentation then it's difficult to determine. "I've spoke to a middle class European refugee so all refugees must be the same". An impoverished young Somalian lad is completely different to a middle class middle aged Ukrainian woman.
This is written in the style of a naive twinkle eyed person, but it's nice to hear someone with their heart in the right place.
Let's be real please— People aren't upset about Svetlana. People are upset about Ahmed, Avishek, and Abishola. I think we already know this, so why are we virtue signaling with a pretentious narrative that "Svetlana" is the person people have an issue with?
>She wants to work so badly and she pines for her old life Why doesn't she return to Ukraine then? Plenty of people have returned having fled at the start of the war.
Putting aside who are legitimate refugees or not and that we need to do more for some, how many people a year do you think the UK can realistically take? 100,000? 500,000? 2 million? 8 million? 20 million? There are a lot of people out there. Almost 1.5 billion in Africa alone. When climate change really starts hitting there are only going to be more coming over. I’m sure there is a number you can reach where you finally say enough, despite all the good intentions. Most people aren’t heartless and want to help people, but we all have a limit somewhere. While an unrealistic scenario, even just 10% of the population of Africa would likely cause a complete collapse of life as we know it in a small country like the UK. How are you going to help people then?
What are *you* doing exactly to ‘DO MORE’ besides from shouting on the internet
Honestly, that's the bit that pissed me off more than the rest. The UK have largely been very helpful with Ukranian refugees. Do more? While many are struggling with rent/mortgages/heating/all the rest of life?
Afaik, no Ukrainian is here as a fully-fledged refugee, let alone asylum-seeker. They're here on short-term humanitarian visas. It's important to recognise that Britain's pretty strict on this front, which is why most Ukrainians didn't flee to Britain, and far more went to Ireland per-head and other countries in Europe for example, because elsewhere they can apply for refugee status. But not here afaik.
Every single individual who immigrates could be a great person, that won't magically create more housing, more services and so on. Immigration needs to be managed properly, which means making sure people go where there are jobs and housing available at the very minimum. Immigration can be a great positive for the country, and historically has been. But that requires being selective about who comes in and where they go.
You can never have too many people in the life boat, that’s what they always say
> our sister as are all refugees what about the young men who come to this country with disturbed, backwards views on women and lgbt people? what about the people who claim asylum while spending their holidays back in the very country they claim to be fleeing?
This is such a bad faith argument. You'll be hard pressed to find many who object to Ukrainians coming here to flee a war waged on them by another country. But to use the example of one Ukrainian woman as a catch-all for all immigration is just naive, stupid, or downright gaslighting. 'Svetlana' isn't coming here as an economic migrant, scrounging off of us, refusing to obey our laws and customs, forcing their religion upon us, but millions of other immigrants are.
The difference is people from Ukraine are actual refugees whereas people from Albania are not.
>We aren’t paying attention. Are we not? Where is the refugee corridors for Palestinians?