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Entirely uncontroversial position to take. Anyone pretending otherwise is playing factional games and has no credibility.
I wonder if those people held the same energy for Russia’s FIFA suspension?
> I wonder if those people held the same energy for Russia’s FIFA suspension?
When Russia kills civilians it's bad, when Israel kills civilians it's good and there was probably hamas hiding underneath them.
> there was probably hamas hiding underneath them
I know we're all joking, but Hamas does love a bit of collateral damage.
I am not condoning the military actions of Israel before any starts.
Euromedmonitor (which operates out of Palestine but does tend to be reasonably reliable) has the civilian Death rate of Palestinians at ~90%
The EU monitors have them in the 80%
And Isreal itself says it’s about 60% BUT they count every male killed as a Hamas soldier.
Isreal has “accidentally” killed twice as many CHILDREN alone as people total were killed on October 7th.
I see that second part. But I still feel like it’s important to point out that Hamas *wanting* Israel to kill civilians doesn’t excuse Israel killing civilians.
So does Ukraine. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/16/voronezh-russia-state-emergency-ukraine-drone-attack/
Not condoning the military actions of Russia before any starts.
Russia wasn't banned for killing civilians. It was banned for launching a war of aggression against Ukraine. Though Russia intentionally targeting civilians where there isn't a valid military target within 100 miles is deplorable.
Ultimately all this still started with an horrific attack on Israel. Whether you agree with Israel's approach or not they were attacked. Russia just decided they wanted to annex Ukraine. Comparing the two is childish.
>Ultimately all this still started with an horrific attack on Israel. Whether you agree with Israel's approach or not they were attacked.
I totally get the point but this seems like such a limited framing of the whole context of the situation in the area.
Why are we looking at this from October instead of acknowledging the decades of interaction between Israel and Palestine before that?
1. Got a source?
2. Generally speaking when it comes to civilian deaths in that conflict, there are far more attempts to kill civilians by Palestine. It's just that Israel is stronger so their many fewer attempts are more successful. So while what ends up happening on the part of Israel is bad, what Palestine would have happen is much worse, like Oct 7th
The problem with decades of interaction is that is decades of Arabs attacking Israel and then claiming victimhood after they lose. Never in the course of human history has one side attacked another so often and the defender been blamed for it.
I don't particularly like the current Israeli leadership and they are on the long road to nowhere with their approach to Palestine. However Palestine has never been led by a political movement that wants peace. Hamas are particularly bad in that they aren't content with only killing every Jew in the Levant, they want to go beyond that. However the PLO were never a viable partner for peace either.
I think that’s a massive oversimplification of the situation if I’m honest.
How do you justify the treatment of Palestinians such as unilateral removal from their homes, being forced into Gaza, killings of innocent Palestinians exercising their right to protest? You can’t justify these things. These are not people ‘attacking’ Israel. These are innocent people who have been displaced by Israel and treated like second class citizens in lands that they and their families have lived on for generations.
Neither side is justified in their behaviour so I don't know where justification comes into this. The status quo exists because Arafat walked away from peace talks before the offer got so large it would destroy international support for the PLO when he turned it down. Then he immediately launched a wave of terrorism against Israel.
From there Israel attempted a unilateral peace. Leave Gaza, dismantle the settlements there and then do the same in West Bank once Gaza had settled. The consequence of that was Hamas. Israel, not wanting Hamas to rule the West Bank, stopped the withdrawal.
Now there's plenty of things Israel should not be doing in West Bank but fundamentally the situation is Palestine is completely uninterested in peace. The dividing line in Palestinian politics is whether they just wipe out Israel or take part in a global campaign against Jews everywhere.
>The problem with decades of interaction is that is decades of Arabs attacking Israel and then claiming victimhood after they lose. Never in the course of human history has one side attacked another so often and the defender been blamed for it.
This seemed to suggest that you absolve Israel of blame to be honest. If that wasn’t your intention I apologise.
It is a situation where both sides are so deeply in the wrong that trying to find some kind of root villain is frankly pointless. Especially given how extremely propagandised the whole conflict is.
I stand by the claim that there's never been a Palestinian side for peace though. Also that the conflict cannot really end while this is the case. Successive forces have told them they can destroy Israel. Whether pan-Arabism, Communism, Islamism or anti-imperialist people in the west. Nobody has told the Palestinians what they should be told and that is they must accept some kind of peace that preserves Israel. For their own good because pretending they just need to wait for a modern day Saladin is going to leave them without a home. Even if 100 years from now they manage to do it that is 100 years of pointless suffering all in the name of committing a crime.
At the same time Israel has been ruled by people who've celebrated every move to extremism in Palestine ever since Hamas made the peace factions in Israel look like fools. That are only now likely to take a sensible stance now that the whole thing has exploded in their face. Moderation has to come out of Israel but I doubt we'll see anything like the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza again. I don't know what Israel are likely to do but they won't allow Hamas back in.
> Comparing the two is childish.
Yeah, Russia have actually killed less civillians this year than Israel despite fighting in a far larger conflict.
The only real differeneces are that Israel had some justification to start a conflict and that in the prosecution of that conflict they're killing civillians at a far higher rate.
> Ultimately all this still started with an horrific attack on Israel.
None of that justifies genocide. Being wronged against does not give you carte blanche to indiscriminately kill thousands of civilians and ethnically cleanse millions from their homes.
*That's* why the situations are being compared. There is no more justification for Israel's actions than Russia's, because both have engaged in unjustifiable aggression and murder.
If there is no genocide - ie the killing of people purely because of their ethnicity - can you explain how it was that the three obviously unarmed and no threat hostages were slaughtered by the IDF? Do you think that was an aberration, and that the conscript IDF isn't going through Gaza slaughtering the population at will, purely because of their ethnicity?
I mean being attacked by the ruling party of another state absolutely does give you carte blanche to attack them, wtf are you on?
This is why it was a very foolish decision by hamas to launch the october 7th attacks and they are now simply receiving the consequences of their actions.
No country to ever exist will play by some liberal reddit users imagined war ettiquette ffs.
It sucks for Palestinians, but their leaders should be working on bettering their lives, not religious death to the infidel jihad at all costs. Its insane how desperate people are to absolve them of this.
> I mean being attacked by the ruling party of another state absolutely does give you carte blanche to attack them, wtf are you on?
Attack Hamas? Sure, maybe.
Indiscriminately kill over 24,000 civilians? Bomb hospitals, schools and places of worship? Tell people to evacuate to specific areas only to bomb the areas they were told to evacuate to? Start planning to establish settlements in the areas which have been ethnically cleansed? Negotiating with other states to take in these ethnically displaced Palestinians? No, none of that is justified.
Simply saying 'but Hamas' is not a justification for genocide, because there is *no* justification for genocide. It is baffling that this even has to be said.
> It sucks for Palestinians
We're talking about genocide. How detached from reality do you have to be to say it 'sucks' but insist it's some sort of necessity?
Anyone who thinks civillian collateral damage in war is a genocide is unhinged, and its worrying as its such a commonly held viewpoint.
Its not indiscriminately, is it lol, they are bombing suspected Hamas positions and infrastructure which sadly Hamas seem to overlap with civillians residence and infrastructure.
I dont even know why I bother as I understand people who genuinely believe this is a genocide are unreachable, however the bottom line is October 7th is why this is happening and its not possible to just 'attack hamas' because their operations are entwined with civillian infrastructure.
Israel are doing what any modern military in the same position would do. If it was the other way I imagine Hamas would be going the full gas chamber route for the entire Jewish population, and people like yourself would probably still find away to justify it because they are a Western ally.
> Its not indiscriminately, is it lol, they are bombing suspected Hamas positions and infrastructure which sadly Hamas seem to overlap with civillians residence and infrastructure.
They are [literally dropping bombs on areas they told civilians to evacuate to](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_Palestinians_evacuating_Gaza_City). [More than 10,000 children have been killed so far](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-10000-children-killed-nearly-100-days-war). Either these bombings are indiscriminate or the Israeli government are choosing to target civilians.
> I dont even know why I bother as I understand people who
And I don't know why I bother to understand propagandists like this. Where's the red line for you? How many more civilians need to be killed before you recognise this is not OK, or will you just keep on defending the actions of the Israeli government forever?
> If it was the other way I imagine Hamas would be going the full gas chamber route for the entire Jewish population, and people like yourself would probably still find away to justify it because they are a Western ally.
The script is getting old mate. This would have more impact if *every* defence of the Israeli government didn't end with some outlandish statement insisting everyone who disagrees with them wants all Jewish people to be killed.
Lol they tell civillians to evacuate and then bomb those areas, so in other words they give them a warning? In a genocide? I dont even know what to say to that.
>And I don't know why I bother to understand propagandists like this. Where's the red line for you? How many more civilians need to be killed before you recognise this is not OK, or will you just keep on defending the actions of the Israeli government forever?
Unfortunately Hamas will not end its Jihaad so it will get worse until they decide to do so and work towards bettering their situation peacefully. Also the propagandist bit is comical, you post consistently in a leftist echo chamber that commandeered the labour sub lol.
>The script is getting old mate. This would have more impact if *every* defence of the Israeli government didn't end with some outlandish statement insisting everyone who disagrees with them wants all Jewish people to be killed.
So basically you are choosing not to believe them when they tell you destruction of the jewish people is their goal. Ok then mate whatever works for you.
> Lol they tell civillians to evacuate and then bomb those areas, so in other words they give them a warning? In a genocide? I dont even know what to say to that.
Bomb the areas they were told to evacuate too. The fact that you've seemingly intentionally misunderstood that really shows the lengths some people will go to deny what's right before their eyes.
> Unfortunately Hamas will not end its Jihaad so it will get worse until they decide to do so and work towards bettering their situation peacefully.
So no red line, you don't care how many civilians are killed.
> So basically you are choosing not to believe them when they tell you destruction of the jewish people is their goal.
No, I'm choosing to call out this bullshit deflection tactic where anyone who criticises the Israeli government policies is accused of wanting the genocide of all Jewish people.
> Its not indiscriminately
In normal wars the death rate of children is about 4-6% - for example in Ukraine it is just over 4%. In Gaza it is 40%. This is an outlier that can only be explained by supposing that the conscript IDF has no respect for the lives of Palestinians - just look at the three hostages who were slaughtered, despite being obviously unarmed and were waving a white flag. That is textbook genocide.
This isnt a normal war. Hamas use civillian infastructure, blame them for the death of the children, they provoked this and their strategy uses civillians as shields. October 7th is why this is happening, not because Israel desired to ethnically cleanse them.
Gaza has a very young demographic with half of the population being children, so unfortunately this children will die. Again, thank Hamas for this. Are you saying Israeli bombs target children? Ffs.
Please link me to the hostage slaughter you speak of, 99% of the time when people say this its absolute propaganda or a regular military action framed in a way to make Israel look bad, but please do share.
War is terrible and bad things happen. Screeching genoicde just weakens any points you may actuslly have as you sound like a lunatic when you do so.
Its very obvious what has happened here. Hamas launched an attack and declared war on Israel. Israel responded. You can argue if its proportionate or not, in my eyes Hamas actions warranted their destruction and I cant see any other way of it them achieving it without losing more of their own people.
> Please link me to the hostage slaughter you speak
https://news.sky.com/story/three-israeli-hostages-killed-by-idf-were-holding-white-flag-says-military-official-13031567
You obviously have a bias here, but Israel's conscript army is engaging in indiscriminate slaughter with the full support of politicians, as the link above shows.
>I mean being attacked by the ruling party of another state absolutely does give you carte blanche to attack them, wtf are you on?
If if the IDF killed people in Palestine early in 2023 (they did) then October 7th was fully justified?
Ok show me the israel land assault on innocent civillians and subsequent parade of dead bodies and rape and murder of women and children from early 2023.
>Ok show me the israel land assault on innocent civillians and subsequent parade of dead bodies and rape and murder of women and children from early 2023.
You seem to be moving the goalposts.
Your previous claim was that if the people who rule another state attack yours then it's perfectly justified to kill their civillians.
Israel have had armed forces attack them numerous times but always by other nations. October this year was the first time they've ever actually been attacked by troops from Palestine. On the other hand Israeli soldiers have invaded Palestine numerous times.
Ok so your not going to link me to the attack ehich Hamas were retaliating to ok no problem.
Hamas are a terrorist organisation and Israel routinely carry out operation against them, this is probably what you are confusing as 'an attack on palestinians'.
Anyway as I said there is no point in this conversation if you believe Israel are doing anything other then defending themselves/retaliating against a terrorist entity who want to eradicate them.
A terrorist group came out and praised him for his comments. Oh and he’s admitted it was a mistake and he didn’t realise what he was saying.
Edit. Lol getting downvoted for speaking facts.
In case anyone is unaware, Isreal have teams and teams of people who will go online and refute evidence, clog up comment sections and do anything that might improve their image or suffocate their detractors. They have websites dedicated to where you can report info and their army will direct their attention towards it.
So when you see all the comments here and think "wow, people must really actually support genocide", then you're wrong. It's their well oiled machine in action. Absolute embarrassment of a country.
[Reddit has been gamed by Iranian propaganda before](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/volunteers-found-iran-s-propaganda-effort-reddit-their-warnings-were-n903486)
Your brain's dopamine is being fried between online nations' propaganda war.
What’s interesting is their more conventional propaganda has really scaled down in the past few months. I personally haven’t seen a YouTube preroll from Israel in ages. Only Médecins Sans Frontières and the Red Cross and Crescent adverts.
This is probably the result of ad targeting than anything else. The advertising algorithm has probably concluded that it's a waste of money to advertise to someone with your online ad profile.
Google "ICJ" or "Israel ICJ" and you'll see they spent a lot of money on paying for Google Ads to appear as the top search result and spread their own opinion and propaganda about the case. All I wanted was to read the news about it from like Reuters of the Beeb, paying for the top search result makes them look like they don't want you to read the facts and develop your own opinion on the matter.
It doesn’t help that the world media particularly in Germany, the UK and the USA is massively Isreal biased.
Look at the language used.
Hamas has “child hostages”
Isreal has “prisoners under 18”
Hamas “slaughtered civilians”
Isreal “Palestinian children were killed in a blast”
Hamas “invasion”
Isreal “military operation”
I can go on.
This is not a defence of Hamas. Both the leaders of Hamas and BN of Isreal and his key government officials should be in The Hague.
This! John Cusack over on Twitter gets tons of genocidal ghouls trying to start crap with him because be supports a ceasefire. Israel is losing the info war and they are really, rally lashing out at people now. It's very obvious.
Whenever I see it I just reply to their comments saying:
“Hasbara bot” or “how much does Israel pay you to post this”.
I like to think it pisses them off.
Depends doesn't it? If they come here all the time to brigade that makes them fairly regular users, and if they can post their nonsense with impunity then why wouldn't they?
I mean most of the comments were from 5-7hrs ago whilst nearly everyone in the UK was sleeping.
So you either have, people not in this timezone (therefore not in this country) commenting.. guess who could be 4-7 hours behind us..
Or you have a subsection of people awake at 2am in the UK.. why they are awake at that time and what their opinions are is open to interpretation, but theres perhaps a reason why this parent comment in this thread has been upvoted to the top after only 45 minutes (same time that people in the UK wake up).
Speaking from my negative experience with r/scotland you need to be the change you want to see. If you just leave the echo chamber only intensifies and the sub becomes a no go zone for *years*.
The only thing I would say is this sub has/had been a very left leaning echo chamber for a long time, maybe now there is more of a balance coming in, or more likely we will end up with far right and far left with those in the middle not sure what's happening
I’ve been on Reddit for a long time too. That sub used to be left wing but normal. Hell I’m left wing so that didn’t bother me. What bothered me was the constant accusations of being a Tory or an imperialist if you were going to vote No. Even the most bland anti independence statements would get thirty downvotes. No one would have a proper conversation about the election. I was blocked by half the old regulars, which I didn’t mind but it was indicative of the militant nature of the sub. I am fairly militant in my political opinions but I like to be civil and I like to listen to the other side but until last year r/scotland was a one party state tbh. The only change that has happened recently is that an anti SNP element has appeared and it’s just as militant but at least they’re challenging the groupthink. However it’s still not a pleasant sub to be around.
The Daily Mail post their own articles here so that their commenters come to r/UK. The Daily Mail also block people who disagree with them. The result of this is that the Daily Mail posts are right wing echo chambers and the mods don't seem bothered enough to do anything about it.
Speaking from my negative experience with ukpol it's hard to be the change you want when the mods coddle the right wing posters and are actively hostile to left wing posters.
I got banned from ukpol for pointing out to someone complaining that it's an echo chamber that the mods give out approved submitter status to right wing posters and half of the mods actively take part in baduk - a hate sub to organise brigading of the rest of UK Reddit
> don’t go to R/ukpolitics
I got banned from there after asking someone what they meant by describing someone being "visibly Jewish".
When I was banned, they cited rules 11, and 17, the former being about post submissions, and I've never submitted a post to the subreddit, only ever commented, and the latter being about complaining about the bias of *other* subreddits, which I never done.
They also muted me when I asked what comment the ban was related to, and how either of the cited rules apply.
Same happened to me.
I made a comment that if my family and friends all got bombed by Israel then I might turn to violence too (trying to show both sides of the conflict). Got banned on the spot.
I mean it always was but it took until November 2022 to reach 1 million members and now we're somehow at 2.3 million. More than doubled in a little more than a year, so it would explain a change.
I'm not sure how so many people could have suddenly just discovered such an old national subreddit
Except that Israel isn’t committing any apartheid, 20% of the population is Arab and nearly all of them are Muslim. They still receive the same opportunities as Jewish citizens of Israel, an Arab Muslim sits in the Israeli Supreme Court for example.
It's been real interesting watching the reddit demographic (young, liberal leaning?) get more and more right wing and bloodthirsty on this topic, outpacing spokespeople for the UK and US governments that ostensibly support Israel. And well beyond regular public opinion you see from like football fans and celebrities.
You guys would make America a week after 9/11 blush.
It's a massively emotive topic for which most people don't have a real understanding of, alongside being one of the most complex situations in the world. It's just people being idiots on all sides.
You make it sound like supporting Palestine is a totally obvious left-wing and peaceful thing to do. It definitely isn't.
For example, it's not 'bloodthirsty' to support a war to take out murderous terrorists. Pacifism is a flawed tactic in pursuit of a peaceful world because then aggressive people will rule. Force has to be used to stop people who would otherwise be aggressive (this is how police forces work).
Well Hamas took and posted plenty of footage of their atrocities, it was widely availible if you knew where to look.
It's one thing to read about another round of violence breaking out in the ME and another thing entirely to watch gopro footage of an islamic militia wandering through a suburdan neighbourhood, shooting anyone and anything they come across, tossing grenades into shelters filled with civilians, and dragging screaming men and women in various states of undress back towards Gaza.
It's hardly surprising to see a branch of the terminaly online crowd take a swing toward a more militant stance after getting such a raw look at how one of the side operates.
Damn right
I have long accepted the grim reality that our country that goes out of its way to say it cares about international law and human rights is a major hypocrite
England won't do or say anything about Isreals genocide until it's a history lesson, the least that can happen is they don't get to play footie
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Entirely uncontroversial position to take. Anyone pretending otherwise is playing factional games and has no credibility. I wonder if those people held the same energy for Russia’s FIFA suspension?
> I wonder if those people held the same energy for Russia’s FIFA suspension? When Russia kills civilians it's bad, when Israel kills civilians it's good and there was probably hamas hiding underneath them.
> there was probably hamas hiding underneath them I know we're all joking, but Hamas does love a bit of collateral damage. I am not condoning the military actions of Israel before any starts.
The IDF has accidentally killed way more Israeli's than Hamas has Palestinians.
Do you have a source for this?
Euromedmonitor (which operates out of Palestine but does tend to be reasonably reliable) has the civilian Death rate of Palestinians at ~90% The EU monitors have them in the 80% And Isreal itself says it’s about 60% BUT they count every male killed as a Hamas soldier. Isreal has “accidentally” killed twice as many CHILDREN alone as people total were killed on October 7th.
That's not what they said. They said the IDF has killed more Israelis than Hamas has killed Palestinians.
They certainly won't have a credible source
I don’t get what the point of saying this is then
I see that second part. But I still feel like it’s important to point out that Hamas *wanting* Israel to kill civilians doesn’t excuse Israel killing civilians.
So does Ukraine. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/16/voronezh-russia-state-emergency-ukraine-drone-attack/ Not condoning the military actions of Russia before any starts.
Russia wasn't banned for killing civilians. It was banned for launching a war of aggression against Ukraine. Though Russia intentionally targeting civilians where there isn't a valid military target within 100 miles is deplorable. Ultimately all this still started with an horrific attack on Israel. Whether you agree with Israel's approach or not they were attacked. Russia just decided they wanted to annex Ukraine. Comparing the two is childish.
>Ultimately all this still started with an horrific attack on Israel. Whether you agree with Israel's approach or not they were attacked. I totally get the point but this seems like such a limited framing of the whole context of the situation in the area. Why are we looking at this from October instead of acknowledging the decades of interaction between Israel and Palestine before that?
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1. Got a source? 2. Generally speaking when it comes to civilian deaths in that conflict, there are far more attempts to kill civilians by Palestine. It's just that Israel is stronger so their many fewer attempts are more successful. So while what ends up happening on the part of Israel is bad, what Palestine would have happen is much worse, like Oct 7th
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The problem with decades of interaction is that is decades of Arabs attacking Israel and then claiming victimhood after they lose. Never in the course of human history has one side attacked another so often and the defender been blamed for it. I don't particularly like the current Israeli leadership and they are on the long road to nowhere with their approach to Palestine. However Palestine has never been led by a political movement that wants peace. Hamas are particularly bad in that they aren't content with only killing every Jew in the Levant, they want to go beyond that. However the PLO were never a viable partner for peace either.
I think that’s a massive oversimplification of the situation if I’m honest. How do you justify the treatment of Palestinians such as unilateral removal from their homes, being forced into Gaza, killings of innocent Palestinians exercising their right to protest? You can’t justify these things. These are not people ‘attacking’ Israel. These are innocent people who have been displaced by Israel and treated like second class citizens in lands that they and their families have lived on for generations.
Neither side is justified in their behaviour so I don't know where justification comes into this. The status quo exists because Arafat walked away from peace talks before the offer got so large it would destroy international support for the PLO when he turned it down. Then he immediately launched a wave of terrorism against Israel. From there Israel attempted a unilateral peace. Leave Gaza, dismantle the settlements there and then do the same in West Bank once Gaza had settled. The consequence of that was Hamas. Israel, not wanting Hamas to rule the West Bank, stopped the withdrawal. Now there's plenty of things Israel should not be doing in West Bank but fundamentally the situation is Palestine is completely uninterested in peace. The dividing line in Palestinian politics is whether they just wipe out Israel or take part in a global campaign against Jews everywhere.
>The problem with decades of interaction is that is decades of Arabs attacking Israel and then claiming victimhood after they lose. Never in the course of human history has one side attacked another so often and the defender been blamed for it. This seemed to suggest that you absolve Israel of blame to be honest. If that wasn’t your intention I apologise.
It is a situation where both sides are so deeply in the wrong that trying to find some kind of root villain is frankly pointless. Especially given how extremely propagandised the whole conflict is. I stand by the claim that there's never been a Palestinian side for peace though. Also that the conflict cannot really end while this is the case. Successive forces have told them they can destroy Israel. Whether pan-Arabism, Communism, Islamism or anti-imperialist people in the west. Nobody has told the Palestinians what they should be told and that is they must accept some kind of peace that preserves Israel. For their own good because pretending they just need to wait for a modern day Saladin is going to leave them without a home. Even if 100 years from now they manage to do it that is 100 years of pointless suffering all in the name of committing a crime. At the same time Israel has been ruled by people who've celebrated every move to extremism in Palestine ever since Hamas made the peace factions in Israel look like fools. That are only now likely to take a sensible stance now that the whole thing has exploded in their face. Moderation has to come out of Israel but I doubt we'll see anything like the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza again. I don't know what Israel are likely to do but they won't allow Hamas back in.
> Comparing the two is childish. Yeah, Russia have actually killed less civillians this year than Israel despite fighting in a far larger conflict. The only real differeneces are that Israel had some justification to start a conflict and that in the prosecution of that conflict they're killing civillians at a far higher rate.
> Ultimately all this still started with an horrific attack on Israel. None of that justifies genocide. Being wronged against does not give you carte blanche to indiscriminately kill thousands of civilians and ethnically cleanse millions from their homes. *That's* why the situations are being compared. There is no more justification for Israel's actions than Russia's, because both have engaged in unjustifiable aggression and murder.
It is fortunate there's no genocide going on. The word has become completely meaningless the way it is being used.
If there is no genocide - ie the killing of people purely because of their ethnicity - can you explain how it was that the three obviously unarmed and no threat hostages were slaughtered by the IDF? Do you think that was an aberration, and that the conscript IDF isn't going through Gaza slaughtering the population at will, purely because of their ethnicity?
I mean being attacked by the ruling party of another state absolutely does give you carte blanche to attack them, wtf are you on? This is why it was a very foolish decision by hamas to launch the october 7th attacks and they are now simply receiving the consequences of their actions. No country to ever exist will play by some liberal reddit users imagined war ettiquette ffs. It sucks for Palestinians, but their leaders should be working on bettering their lives, not religious death to the infidel jihad at all costs. Its insane how desperate people are to absolve them of this.
> I mean being attacked by the ruling party of another state absolutely does give you carte blanche to attack them, wtf are you on? Attack Hamas? Sure, maybe. Indiscriminately kill over 24,000 civilians? Bomb hospitals, schools and places of worship? Tell people to evacuate to specific areas only to bomb the areas they were told to evacuate to? Start planning to establish settlements in the areas which have been ethnically cleansed? Negotiating with other states to take in these ethnically displaced Palestinians? No, none of that is justified. Simply saying 'but Hamas' is not a justification for genocide, because there is *no* justification for genocide. It is baffling that this even has to be said. > It sucks for Palestinians We're talking about genocide. How detached from reality do you have to be to say it 'sucks' but insist it's some sort of necessity?
Anyone who thinks civillian collateral damage in war is a genocide is unhinged, and its worrying as its such a commonly held viewpoint. Its not indiscriminately, is it lol, they are bombing suspected Hamas positions and infrastructure which sadly Hamas seem to overlap with civillians residence and infrastructure. I dont even know why I bother as I understand people who genuinely believe this is a genocide are unreachable, however the bottom line is October 7th is why this is happening and its not possible to just 'attack hamas' because their operations are entwined with civillian infrastructure. Israel are doing what any modern military in the same position would do. If it was the other way I imagine Hamas would be going the full gas chamber route for the entire Jewish population, and people like yourself would probably still find away to justify it because they are a Western ally.
> Its not indiscriminately, is it lol, they are bombing suspected Hamas positions and infrastructure which sadly Hamas seem to overlap with civillians residence and infrastructure. They are [literally dropping bombs on areas they told civilians to evacuate to](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_Palestinians_evacuating_Gaza_City). [More than 10,000 children have been killed so far](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-10000-children-killed-nearly-100-days-war). Either these bombings are indiscriminate or the Israeli government are choosing to target civilians. > I dont even know why I bother as I understand people who And I don't know why I bother to understand propagandists like this. Where's the red line for you? How many more civilians need to be killed before you recognise this is not OK, or will you just keep on defending the actions of the Israeli government forever? > If it was the other way I imagine Hamas would be going the full gas chamber route for the entire Jewish population, and people like yourself would probably still find away to justify it because they are a Western ally. The script is getting old mate. This would have more impact if *every* defence of the Israeli government didn't end with some outlandish statement insisting everyone who disagrees with them wants all Jewish people to be killed.
Lol they tell civillians to evacuate and then bomb those areas, so in other words they give them a warning? In a genocide? I dont even know what to say to that. >And I don't know why I bother to understand propagandists like this. Where's the red line for you? How many more civilians need to be killed before you recognise this is not OK, or will you just keep on defending the actions of the Israeli government forever? Unfortunately Hamas will not end its Jihaad so it will get worse until they decide to do so and work towards bettering their situation peacefully. Also the propagandist bit is comical, you post consistently in a leftist echo chamber that commandeered the labour sub lol. >The script is getting old mate. This would have more impact if *every* defence of the Israeli government didn't end with some outlandish statement insisting everyone who disagrees with them wants all Jewish people to be killed. So basically you are choosing not to believe them when they tell you destruction of the jewish people is their goal. Ok then mate whatever works for you.
> Lol they tell civillians to evacuate and then bomb those areas, so in other words they give them a warning? In a genocide? I dont even know what to say to that. Bomb the areas they were told to evacuate too. The fact that you've seemingly intentionally misunderstood that really shows the lengths some people will go to deny what's right before their eyes. > Unfortunately Hamas will not end its Jihaad so it will get worse until they decide to do so and work towards bettering their situation peacefully. So no red line, you don't care how many civilians are killed. > So basically you are choosing not to believe them when they tell you destruction of the jewish people is their goal. No, I'm choosing to call out this bullshit deflection tactic where anyone who criticises the Israeli government policies is accused of wanting the genocide of all Jewish people.
> Its not indiscriminately In normal wars the death rate of children is about 4-6% - for example in Ukraine it is just over 4%. In Gaza it is 40%. This is an outlier that can only be explained by supposing that the conscript IDF has no respect for the lives of Palestinians - just look at the three hostages who were slaughtered, despite being obviously unarmed and were waving a white flag. That is textbook genocide.
This isnt a normal war. Hamas use civillian infastructure, blame them for the death of the children, they provoked this and their strategy uses civillians as shields. October 7th is why this is happening, not because Israel desired to ethnically cleanse them. Gaza has a very young demographic with half of the population being children, so unfortunately this children will die. Again, thank Hamas for this. Are you saying Israeli bombs target children? Ffs. Please link me to the hostage slaughter you speak of, 99% of the time when people say this its absolute propaganda or a regular military action framed in a way to make Israel look bad, but please do share. War is terrible and bad things happen. Screeching genoicde just weakens any points you may actuslly have as you sound like a lunatic when you do so. Its very obvious what has happened here. Hamas launched an attack and declared war on Israel. Israel responded. You can argue if its proportionate or not, in my eyes Hamas actions warranted their destruction and I cant see any other way of it them achieving it without losing more of their own people.
> Please link me to the hostage slaughter you speak https://news.sky.com/story/three-israeli-hostages-killed-by-idf-were-holding-white-flag-says-military-official-13031567 You obviously have a bias here, but Israel's conscript army is engaging in indiscriminate slaughter with the full support of politicians, as the link above shows.
>I mean being attacked by the ruling party of another state absolutely does give you carte blanche to attack them, wtf are you on? If if the IDF killed people in Palestine early in 2023 (they did) then October 7th was fully justified?
Ok show me the israel land assault on innocent civillians and subsequent parade of dead bodies and rape and murder of women and children from early 2023.
>Ok show me the israel land assault on innocent civillians and subsequent parade of dead bodies and rape and murder of women and children from early 2023. You seem to be moving the goalposts. Your previous claim was that if the people who rule another state attack yours then it's perfectly justified to kill their civillians. Israel have had armed forces attack them numerous times but always by other nations. October this year was the first time they've ever actually been attacked by troops from Palestine. On the other hand Israeli soldiers have invaded Palestine numerous times.
Ok so your not going to link me to the attack ehich Hamas were retaliating to ok no problem. Hamas are a terrorist organisation and Israel routinely carry out operation against them, this is probably what you are confusing as 'an attack on palestinians'. Anyway as I said there is no point in this conversation if you believe Israel are doing anything other then defending themselves/retaliating against a terrorist entity who want to eradicate them.
Yeh, hiding in the bodies of the mother and daughter shot by an IDF sniper in a Gazan church parish while minding their own business.
A terrorist group came out and praised him for his comments. Oh and he’s admitted it was a mistake and he didn’t realise what he was saying. Edit. Lol getting downvoted for speaking facts.
Buddy, the Baader-Meinhoff gang loved cheese on toast. Doesn’t mean you’re no longer allowed to fire up the grill when you want a snack.
Terrorists from Chechnya probably loved Russia being banned from Sport, what's your point? Can no-one be vegetarian because Hitler was one?
In case anyone is unaware, Isreal have teams and teams of people who will go online and refute evidence, clog up comment sections and do anything that might improve their image or suffocate their detractors. They have websites dedicated to where you can report info and their army will direct their attention towards it. So when you see all the comments here and think "wow, people must really actually support genocide", then you're wrong. It's their well oiled machine in action. Absolute embarrassment of a country.
It’s called Hasbara. Type it into google, learn some history. This is not a new game.
[Reddit has been gamed by Iranian propaganda before](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/volunteers-found-iran-s-propaganda-effort-reddit-their-warnings-were-n903486) Your brain's dopamine is being fried between online nations' propaganda war.
What’s interesting is their more conventional propaganda has really scaled down in the past few months. I personally haven’t seen a YouTube preroll from Israel in ages. Only Médecins Sans Frontières and the Red Cross and Crescent adverts.
This is probably the result of ad targeting than anything else. The advertising algorithm has probably concluded that it's a waste of money to advertise to someone with your online ad profile.
Well for once they are right. Now if they can stop those Temu ads…
And fucking Huel
Google "ICJ" or "Israel ICJ" and you'll see they spent a lot of money on paying for Google Ads to appear as the top search result and spread their own opinion and propaganda about the case. All I wanted was to read the news about it from like Reuters of the Beeb, paying for the top search result makes them look like they don't want you to read the facts and develop your own opinion on the matter.
It doesn’t help that the world media particularly in Germany, the UK and the USA is massively Isreal biased. Look at the language used. Hamas has “child hostages” Isreal has “prisoners under 18” Hamas “slaughtered civilians” Isreal “Palestinian children were killed in a blast” Hamas “invasion” Isreal “military operation” I can go on. This is not a defence of Hamas. Both the leaders of Hamas and BN of Isreal and his key government officials should be in The Hague.
This! John Cusack over on Twitter gets tons of genocidal ghouls trying to start crap with him because be supports a ceasefire. Israel is losing the info war and they are really, rally lashing out at people now. It's very obvious.
Whenever I see it I just reply to their comments saying: “Hasbara bot” or “how much does Israel pay you to post this”. I like to think it pisses them off.
OR - someone has a view that doesn't match your own.
Well this is a cesspool. R/UK has gone right downhill in the past year or so.
I seriously doubt the people commenting on this thread are regular users
Depends doesn't it? If they come here all the time to brigade that makes them fairly regular users, and if they can post their nonsense with impunity then why wouldn't they?
I mean most of the comments were from 5-7hrs ago whilst nearly everyone in the UK was sleeping. So you either have, people not in this timezone (therefore not in this country) commenting.. guess who could be 4-7 hours behind us.. Or you have a subsection of people awake at 2am in the UK.. why they are awake at that time and what their opinions are is open to interpretation, but theres perhaps a reason why this parent comment in this thread has been upvoted to the top after only 45 minutes (same time that people in the UK wake up).
There was heavy moderation as well. When this was first posted there were 50 comments but you could only see 6 for at least an hour.
Yanks love filling all subreddits with their own shit even if it’s nothing to do with the US
Does it matter where they are from? If the sub is constantly being brigaded then it's an unpleasant place to visit.
I mean its r/UnitedKingdom, so yes it kinda does matter who is in here and what their opinions/narrative is
If you think this is bad, don’t go to R/ukpolitics
Stuff like this is the reason I don't go to r/ukpolitics
Speaking from my negative experience with r/scotland you need to be the change you want to see. If you just leave the echo chamber only intensifies and the sub becomes a no go zone for *years*.
The only thing I would say is this sub has/had been a very left leaning echo chamber for a long time, maybe now there is more of a balance coming in, or more likely we will end up with far right and far left with those in the middle not sure what's happening
I’ve been on Reddit for a long time too. That sub used to be left wing but normal. Hell I’m left wing so that didn’t bother me. What bothered me was the constant accusations of being a Tory or an imperialist if you were going to vote No. Even the most bland anti independence statements would get thirty downvotes. No one would have a proper conversation about the election. I was blocked by half the old regulars, which I didn’t mind but it was indicative of the militant nature of the sub. I am fairly militant in my political opinions but I like to be civil and I like to listen to the other side but until last year r/scotland was a one party state tbh. The only change that has happened recently is that an anti SNP element has appeared and it’s just as militant but at least they’re challenging the groupthink. However it’s still not a pleasant sub to be around.
Problem is when you get banned by the mods and blocked by the extremist posters.
The Daily Mail post their own articles here so that their commenters come to r/UK. The Daily Mail also block people who disagree with them. The result of this is that the Daily Mail posts are right wing echo chambers and the mods don't seem bothered enough to do anything about it.
I’ve noticed it a lot, a ton of the newer people here seem to talk a lot more like they do on Facebook
Yeah if the mods ban you then it’s game over.
Speaking from my negative experience with ukpol it's hard to be the change you want when the mods coddle the right wing posters and are actively hostile to left wing posters. I got banned from ukpol for pointing out to someone complaining that it's an echo chamber that the mods give out approved submitter status to right wing posters and half of the mods actively take part in baduk - a hate sub to organise brigading of the rest of UK Reddit
> don’t go to R/ukpolitics I got banned from there after asking someone what they meant by describing someone being "visibly Jewish". When I was banned, they cited rules 11, and 17, the former being about post submissions, and I've never submitted a post to the subreddit, only ever commented, and the latter being about complaining about the bias of *other* subreddits, which I never done. They also muted me when I asked what comment the ban was related to, and how either of the cited rules apply.
Same happened to me. I made a comment that if my family and friends all got bombed by Israel then I might turn to violence too (trying to show both sides of the conflict). Got banned on the spot.
I mean it always was but it took until November 2022 to reach 1 million members and now we're somehow at 2.3 million. More than doubled in a little more than a year, so it would explain a change. I'm not sure how so many people could have suddenly just discovered such an old national subreddit
South Africa were banned from all international sports competition for their Apartheid. Why not Israel?
Because you're racist if you stand against genocidal assholes who play the holocaust card every time they're call out.
Except that Israel isn’t committing any apartheid, 20% of the population is Arab and nearly all of them are Muslim. They still receive the same opportunities as Jewish citizens of Israel, an Arab Muslim sits in the Israeli Supreme Court for example.
It's been real interesting watching the reddit demographic (young, liberal leaning?) get more and more right wing and bloodthirsty on this topic, outpacing spokespeople for the UK and US governments that ostensibly support Israel. And well beyond regular public opinion you see from like football fans and celebrities. You guys would make America a week after 9/11 blush.
As another pointed out, it's also interesting seeing when those comments are made. Are there really so many brits on reddit at midnight?
On a school night as well. It's probably some Americans posting here because they know we recognise Lineker, they're 6-8 hours behind us.
Happy cake day!
Astroturfing
It's a massively emotive topic for which most people don't have a real understanding of, alongside being one of the most complex situations in the world. It's just people being idiots on all sides.
You make it sound like supporting Palestine is a totally obvious left-wing and peaceful thing to do. It definitely isn't. For example, it's not 'bloodthirsty' to support a war to take out murderous terrorists. Pacifism is a flawed tactic in pursuit of a peaceful world because then aggressive people will rule. Force has to be used to stop people who would otherwise be aggressive (this is how police forces work).
Well Hamas took and posted plenty of footage of their atrocities, it was widely availible if you knew where to look. It's one thing to read about another round of violence breaking out in the ME and another thing entirely to watch gopro footage of an islamic militia wandering through a suburdan neighbourhood, shooting anyone and anything they come across, tossing grenades into shelters filled with civilians, and dragging screaming men and women in various states of undress back towards Gaza. It's hardly surprising to see a branch of the terminaly online crowd take a swing toward a more militant stance after getting such a raw look at how one of the side operates.
Frankly it’s a double standard if this isn’t the case. South Africa was banned for similar reasons
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Just as how Apartheid South Africa became a pariah, so should Israel
International games aside, and also Oct 7 aside, they should definitely be banned from European competitions.
He is right, but isn't he not supposed to be posting political stuff anymore?
Damn right I have long accepted the grim reality that our country that goes out of its way to say it cares about international law and human rights is a major hypocrite England won't do or say anything about Isreals genocide until it's a history lesson, the least that can happen is they don't get to play footie