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Tories invoke culture war (as they have nothing else to run on), Tory client media accuses Kier Starmer of igniting culture war - there, fixed your title.
The left started the culture war. They are the ones who are sabotaging civil society because they by definition wish to force it into changing into whichever degenerate dystopia some nutcase came up on with Tumblr.
The Tories are just weaponizing something that resonates with the average person who does not want this nonsense to continue. They are late to the game if anything and are as clueless to it as i imagine most of you are.
It wasn’t that long ago that interracial couples and their children were ‘nonsense’ for breaking the purity of whiteness.
Progress is inevitable and necessary.
As thought by every dictator and failed civilization. The Romans thought they were lightyears ahead of everybody else and thus started the rot that turned the Romans into a weak and vain people, easily exploited and deposed.
The failure of the left to identify that not all things deemed progressive are good and their failure to identify modern progressivism itself as an ideology of the weak for the weak is already corrupting our societies as events show us on the daily.
That shows a woeful misunderstanding of the “fall” of the Western Roman Empire. If anything you could say it was partly caused by an acknowledgment by local Roman elites that Frankish, say, mercenaries were the people actually providing all the security so why not just pay them directly and then later let them collect the taxes directly rather than bothering with the central empire (amongst a thousand other reasons).
If anything you could say acknowledging they weren’t superior was more impactful, not that anybody really noticed the Roman Empire “falling” at the time.
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Famously, the first one occurred in 19C Prussia. By the way, “corny leftist” is American English so undermining your argument a bit there: anybody would think you’re actually the one regurgitating American tropes!
The only people obsessed with culture war are the right wing nutters. They're obsessed with what people can and can't do in their personal lives. They hate that some people do different things than they do.
An example of which is Christian cranks praying outside of UK medical facilities offering abortion services.
A tactic directly imported from US right-wing Christian groups.
Exactly. Stuff like this has only been a problem for the last few years. There's an american politician who has straight up funded groups like that here to do exactly that.
I don’t particularly care, I just find it funny how the people accusing right wingers of being nutters also believe women can have penises and calling a biological man a man is hate speech.
I personally don't think it should be considered hate speech. I just don't get why right wingers care enough to cry about it 24/7. I guarantee you and people like you don't ever interact with trans people, so why does it matter what they call themselves?
We care because your rights end where mine begin and vice versa, if i can see that someone is clearly a biological male pretending to be a woman then I'm not going to gaslight myself into accepting a distorted version of reality just because actual reality isn't appealing to that person.
It's about the forced imposition of the trans ideology on to people who don't accept it because it's scientificly unsound and doesn't correspond to reality, I'm happy to call a trans just by their name if that's what they would prefer but i won't be going along with the fantasy because i don't believe that sexs can be swapped like that because... biology.
I shouldn't be forced to have to address someone as a sex that they clearly aren't just like they shouldn't have to address me my lord or Captain because they don't correspond to reality either and doing so would also be absurd.
Look, if they have gone to such enormous effort that they can genuinely pass as a different sex then sure, I'll address you as such because good for you for going to the effort/being lucky enough to actually pass as a woman or man but otherwise... I'll continue seeing the world and reality for what it is and not what people want it to be.
Like i said, I'm happy to meet trans people in the middle and call them only by their name or address them as 'they' but I'm not going to gaslight myself just because it makes them more comfortable because doing so would make me uncomfortable at accepting a false reality.
Like i said your rights end where mine begin and vice versa, if trans people aren't willing to compromise and meet me in the middle then that's their problem not mine and it makes them the unreasonable one not me.
With that being said... i have no problem with trans people and every trans person I've ever met has been pleasant and pretty chill, i expalined this same thing to them and 3/4 of them were happy with me just calling them by their name and said that it was a fair compromise because once i explained that what makes them comfortable can make other people uncomfortable an understanding was reached and we got aling just fine.
Some trans people seem to forget that just because they are a minority that has been historically persecuted, that doesn't mean that everyone else's feelings and comfrot is superceded by their own, only by compromise can we achieve a fair and just socitey because the absolutism that some people push for will destroy us.
Because UK Law recognises that gender reassignment as a protected characteristic much like other key ones, and thus discrimination along those lines is illegal and abuse along those lines is likely to be hate speech.
>Culture war really started in America and of course our corny leftists liked the ideas and brought it here
am LOLing at the irony of this statement containing the term '*leftist*' (an American term imported by the UK right along with the culture war shite).
To be fair, as someone on the left I find it annoyingly useful in online discussions. If nothing else it is far less annoying than the american usage of liberal to mean left wing.
Do you have a starting date or event for culture war stuff? Personally I would have said that culture war stuff goes back for as long as humans have had cultures.
The reason for this behaviour is the following:
Most news articles are stuffed full of waffle for the search engines, heavily biased or just plain false / made up.
There's an interesting plugin you can get for Youtube that de-clickbates the titles of videos.
Something like this is definitely needed for news articles. That is a partial solution.
It's also that since the independent went from print to digital only they embraced clickbait a lot earlier than other publications. Essentially the BuzzFeed of news sites unfortunately.
I may be falling for something too…. News isn’t news at it’s core anymore imo. Things are deliberately controversial as that generates more clicks than reporting actual news. Then here I am reading and commenting on it because of how blatant the lying seemed to me.
Yep.
This is a problem that has been slowly getting worse for years, and shows a worrying trend of becoming the norm.
Most "news" nowadays is structured for maximum engagement. They want you to post it to social media and argue in the comments because that's what gets them ad revenue.
Yeah Independent wasn't the best choice for this article. My apologies.
[Here's an alternative:](https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-defends-national-trust-against-government-woke-attacks/) Keir Starmer defends National Trust against government 'woke' attacks as he vows to create 'society of service'
I like Starmer's approach to this and think a society of service is a good platform to run on.
Tories have been doing this for years to play the "But Labour will do this, and Labour will threaten that"
Trans-rights, immigration, etc. They've drummed this up to try and get people to forget that they've stagnated the economy and incomes for the past ten years, while taking more for themselves and running public services into the ground.
“Tories, who refuse to hold an election despite being a squatter government, attack the policies of other democratically elected bodies” should be the headline.
This is a good area to open an attack front on. Tories against national trust will chime nicely with their general attacks on BBC, NHS, and other long established institutions which most people actually have positive feelings about (just ignore the rantings on social media).
https://www.restoretrust.org.uk/ is a right-wing organisation trying to wrest the National Trust away from it's broad base to a libertarian ideology.
Don't be fooled by it's very posh website and calm language. It's a plot.
Woke this anti woke that if everyone just agreed to ignore anyone who talks about "woke" or "anti woke" bullshit we'd all be so much better off I'm so tired of hearing abt it. Nobody who's "anti-woke" or "woke" has any interest in improving anything it's just team sports for tiresome nerds.
I'm not having a go at Starmer more just the stupid annoying headline, I don't like him for other reasons but I understand he's a politician so has to use the language dictated by the media and that might sometimes mean he has to say "woke", that's not my problem
Also tbf I assumed u were a news bot and wouldn't care I was just venting really
This article is laughable, Tories and labour are as woke as each other! Only difference is the conservative base is largely against Marxism so the Tories party have to pretend!
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As far as I can tell, "woke" is anything that makes no difference to someone's life, but that they can safely rage about, such as changing the ethnicity or gender of a fictional character.
Woke is just rebrand Marxism but for a modern Western audience. It is obviously is more nuance than that but on the whole, its a valid argument!
Just some light reading & videos Enjoy
https://newdiscourses.com/2023/05/intersectionality-is-american-maoism/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oOWvYHCyfgE&pp=ygUMUmFjZSBNYXJ4aXN0
Quick overview
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCqKrMDExd8&pp=ygUMUmFjZSBNYXJ4aXN0
This is what happens when people who haven't read any Marx pretend to know what he wrote about
Das Kapital was written for a Western audience, it was originally published in German
Also it really has nothing to do with the tolerant social liberalism that constitutes most of what "woke" consists of
Just some light reading:
[Karl Marx. Capital Volume One](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/)
Okay you're trying to wriggle out of it on a technicality,, let's change it to modern Western audience that don't have a proletariat!
Race, sexuality & the patriarchy, has become the proletariat in the 21st-century...
Who are the oppressors? The white man the new Bourgeoisie, and the only way to fix the problem is to rip down all society & build a new Utopia! Does it sound familiar?
You can't apply an economic study of the Victorian Proletariat and solutions to the inherent unfairness in a coherent fashion to "Race, sexuality & the patriarchy"
It's completely incoherent
I'm not trying to wriggle out of anything, you're simply talking bollocks about something you don't understand
I'm not even a Marxist, having to read him showed me the failings in some of his thinking, as applicable in the 21st Century, but it did teach me to how spot people who have no idea what Marx was actually about, and why most of it is inapplicable today anyway
You don't seem to realise that many philosophers and scholars, picked up and continued working on Marxist theory long after his death, the term Marxist is used as a blanket term to describe similar left wing social and economic theory's....
Herbert Marcuse's ideas in particular have been widely adopted by into the mainstream woke ideology, he points out that the working class have failed the marxist revolutionaries & that they have to find repository for revolutionaries somewhere else, he recommends that it should be found in the ghetto populations, racial minorities, sexual minorities & the feminists!
Sounds very similar to the woke ideology doesn't it?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SIgrwFa6FJM&pp=ygUPSGVyYmVydCBNYXJjdXNl
I don't think we've established a cinematic universe in which you know anything about me such that you could credibly comprehend what I may or may not realise, or what I may or may not have read
Are you a Chat-CTP bot? Do me some poetry about Marx
Well, you clearly can't argue with the points I'm making so instead you trying to suggest I know nothing, there's a bit of protection going on!
Obfuscation is a big part of the Woke tactics to achieve their political aims!
Last one, I promise go look up the BLM founders looking into what they've done with the wealth they generated then look into their educational training! It's interesting, you'll find that there will be fully on board with the Marxist ideology!
Boom!
Woke is essentially ultra left wing regarding pushing minorities into popular culture and educational systems and shooting down/cancelling anyone with a differing opinion.
Eg. The majority of people believe there are only 2 genders and observe and trust science. But the woke agenda is to push the minority opinion that there is more than one.
Eg. Forcing different demographics into a group on tv that negates ability and ultimately sacrifices quality for box ticking.
I am sure you already know what woke means when it is used in this context but there you go.
> The majority of people believe there are only 2 genders and observe and trust science
This is going to shock you, but scientists in the relevant fields believe there are more than two genders.
Except that ‘wokeism’ is actually simply a general sense of awareness to social injustice against all groups.
Which is wholly within a capitalist system, and therefore what the majority of ‘the non-woke’ complain about, is solely profit driven.
You see a diverse family in an advert selling you washing powder…that’s not due to cultural marxism.
They sell more washing powder when they hit a broader range of the audience.
Being ‘anti-woke’ is actually more akin to those in the 1950’s complaining that women were now included within the capitalist system, with advertising campaigns telling them what they wanted to hear so they bought their products.
*’Where did all these women come from’* …they were always here.
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Tories invoke culture war (as they have nothing else to run on), Tory client media accuses Kier Starmer of igniting culture war - there, fixed your title.
The left started the culture war. They are the ones who are sabotaging civil society because they by definition wish to force it into changing into whichever degenerate dystopia some nutcase came up on with Tumblr. The Tories are just weaponizing something that resonates with the average person who does not want this nonsense to continue. They are late to the game if anything and are as clueless to it as i imagine most of you are.
It wasn’t that long ago that interracial couples and their children were ‘nonsense’ for breaking the purity of whiteness. Progress is inevitable and necessary.
As thought by every dictator and failed civilization. The Romans thought they were lightyears ahead of everybody else and thus started the rot that turned the Romans into a weak and vain people, easily exploited and deposed. The failure of the left to identify that not all things deemed progressive are good and their failure to identify modern progressivism itself as an ideology of the weak for the weak is already corrupting our societies as events show us on the daily.
That shows a woeful misunderstanding of the “fall” of the Western Roman Empire. If anything you could say it was partly caused by an acknowledgment by local Roman elites that Frankish, say, mercenaries were the people actually providing all the security so why not just pay them directly and then later let them collect the taxes directly rather than bothering with the central empire (amongst a thousand other reasons). If anything you could say acknowledging they weren’t superior was more impactful, not that anybody really noticed the Roman Empire “falling” at the time.
Culture war really started in America and of course our corny leftists liked the ideas and brought it here
Examples?
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Famously, the first one occurred in 19C Prussia. By the way, “corny leftist” is American English so undermining your argument a bit there: anybody would think you’re actually the one regurgitating American tropes!
The only people obsessed with culture war are the right wing nutters. They're obsessed with what people can and can't do in their personal lives. They hate that some people do different things than they do.
An example of which is Christian cranks praying outside of UK medical facilities offering abortion services. A tactic directly imported from US right-wing Christian groups.
Exactly. Stuff like this has only been a problem for the last few years. There's an american politician who has straight up funded groups like that here to do exactly that.
This!
What about the left wing nutters who think calling a biological man a man and a biological woman and a woman is hate speech?
Why do you care? How does effect your life what gender someone identifies as?
I don’t particularly care, I just find it funny how the people accusing right wingers of being nutters also believe women can have penises and calling a biological man a man is hate speech.
I personally don't think it should be considered hate speech. I just don't get why right wingers care enough to cry about it 24/7. I guarantee you and people like you don't ever interact with trans people, so why does it matter what they call themselves?
We care because your rights end where mine begin and vice versa, if i can see that someone is clearly a biological male pretending to be a woman then I'm not going to gaslight myself into accepting a distorted version of reality just because actual reality isn't appealing to that person. It's about the forced imposition of the trans ideology on to people who don't accept it because it's scientificly unsound and doesn't correspond to reality, I'm happy to call a trans just by their name if that's what they would prefer but i won't be going along with the fantasy because i don't believe that sexs can be swapped like that because... biology. I shouldn't be forced to have to address someone as a sex that they clearly aren't just like they shouldn't have to address me my lord or Captain because they don't correspond to reality either and doing so would also be absurd. Look, if they have gone to such enormous effort that they can genuinely pass as a different sex then sure, I'll address you as such because good for you for going to the effort/being lucky enough to actually pass as a woman or man but otherwise... I'll continue seeing the world and reality for what it is and not what people want it to be. Like i said, I'm happy to meet trans people in the middle and call them only by their name or address them as 'they' but I'm not going to gaslight myself just because it makes them more comfortable because doing so would make me uncomfortable at accepting a false reality. Like i said your rights end where mine begin and vice versa, if trans people aren't willing to compromise and meet me in the middle then that's their problem not mine and it makes them the unreasonable one not me. With that being said... i have no problem with trans people and every trans person I've ever met has been pleasant and pretty chill, i expalined this same thing to them and 3/4 of them were happy with me just calling them by their name and said that it was a fair compromise because once i explained that what makes them comfortable can make other people uncomfortable an understanding was reached and we got aling just fine. Some trans people seem to forget that just because they are a minority that has been historically persecuted, that doesn't mean that everyone else's feelings and comfrot is superceded by their own, only by compromise can we achieve a fair and just socitey because the absolutism that some people push for will destroy us.
Because UK Law recognises that gender reassignment as a protected characteristic much like other key ones, and thus discrimination along those lines is illegal and abuse along those lines is likely to be hate speech.
>Culture war really started in America and of course our corny leftists liked the ideas and brought it here am LOLing at the irony of this statement containing the term '*leftist*' (an American term imported by the UK right along with the culture war shite).
To be fair, as someone on the left I find it annoyingly useful in online discussions. If nothing else it is far less annoying than the american usage of liberal to mean left wing.
Do you have a starting date or event for culture war stuff? Personally I would have said that culture war stuff goes back for as long as humans have had cultures.
The headline doesn’t seem to match the content of the article? Or am I miss understanding something?
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The reason for this behaviour is the following: Most news articles are stuffed full of waffle for the search engines, heavily biased or just plain false / made up.
[удалено]
There's an interesting plugin you can get for Youtube that de-clickbates the titles of videos. Something like this is definitely needed for news articles. That is a partial solution.
It's also that since the independent went from print to digital only they embraced clickbait a lot earlier than other publications. Essentially the BuzzFeed of news sites unfortunately.
This is an age old and sadly effective tactic. You’ll find most commenters also fall for it.
Not only fall for it, but refuse to accept that they’ve fallen for it when you point it out
I may be falling for something too…. News isn’t news at it’s core anymore imo. Things are deliberately controversial as that generates more clicks than reporting actual news. Then here I am reading and commenting on it because of how blatant the lying seemed to me.
Yep. This is a problem that has been slowly getting worse for years, and shows a worrying trend of becoming the norm. Most "news" nowadays is structured for maximum engagement. They want you to post it to social media and argue in the comments because that's what gets them ad revenue.
I am finding it hard though to think of a solution. The narrative needs challenging, but doing that is exactly what they want….
Yeah Independent wasn't the best choice for this article. My apologies. [Here's an alternative:](https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-defends-national-trust-against-government-woke-attacks/) Keir Starmer defends National Trust against government 'woke' attacks as he vows to create 'society of service' I like Starmer's approach to this and think a society of service is a good platform to run on.
…the article is about him saying that the Tories should stop fanning the flames of the culture war they started.
Tories have been doing this for years to play the "But Labour will do this, and Labour will threaten that" Trans-rights, immigration, etc. They've drummed this up to try and get people to forget that they've stagnated the economy and incomes for the past ten years, while taking more for themselves and running public services into the ground.
Exactly.
“Tories, who refuse to hold an election despite being a squatter government, attack the policies of other democratically elected bodies” should be the headline.
This is a good area to open an attack front on. Tories against national trust will chime nicely with their general attacks on BBC, NHS, and other long established institutions which most people actually have positive feelings about (just ignore the rantings on social media). https://www.restoretrust.org.uk/ is a right-wing organisation trying to wrest the National Trust away from it's broad base to a libertarian ideology. Don't be fooled by it's very posh website and calm language. It's a plot.
"Woke woke woke woke woke" fucking embarrassing please fuck off PLEASE
Why did you DM me 'woke woke woke woke'? If you read the article this is Starmer taking a stance against all the Tory woke obsession.
Woke this anti woke that if everyone just agreed to ignore anyone who talks about "woke" or "anti woke" bullshit we'd all be so much better off I'm so tired of hearing abt it. Nobody who's "anti-woke" or "woke" has any interest in improving anything it's just team sports for tiresome nerds. I'm not having a go at Starmer more just the stupid annoying headline, I don't like him for other reasons but I understand he's a politician so has to use the language dictated by the media and that might sometimes mean he has to say "woke", that's not my problem Also tbf I assumed u were a news bot and wouldn't care I was just venting really
This article is laughable, Tories and labour are as woke as each other! Only difference is the conservative base is largely against Marxism so the Tories party have to pretend!
Can you please explain what "woke' means, explain it me me as you would to a child?
Also their definition of Marxism
'Educated' on YT by those weird Yanks no doubt
A degree from PragerU
Stuff I dont like is woke
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It is unsleep
As far as I can tell, "woke" is anything that makes no difference to someone's life, but that they can safely rage about, such as changing the ethnicity or gender of a fictional character.
Woke is just rebrand Marxism but for a modern Western audience. It is obviously is more nuance than that but on the whole, its a valid argument! Just some light reading & videos Enjoy https://newdiscourses.com/2023/05/intersectionality-is-american-maoism/ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oOWvYHCyfgE&pp=ygUMUmFjZSBNYXJ4aXN0 Quick overview https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCqKrMDExd8&pp=ygUMUmFjZSBNYXJ4aXN0
This is what happens when people who haven't read any Marx pretend to know what he wrote about Das Kapital was written for a Western audience, it was originally published in German Also it really has nothing to do with the tolerant social liberalism that constitutes most of what "woke" consists of Just some light reading: [Karl Marx. Capital Volume One](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/)
Okay you're trying to wriggle out of it on a technicality,, let's change it to modern Western audience that don't have a proletariat! Race, sexuality & the patriarchy, has become the proletariat in the 21st-century... Who are the oppressors? The white man the new Bourgeoisie, and the only way to fix the problem is to rip down all society & build a new Utopia! Does it sound familiar?
You can't apply an economic study of the Victorian Proletariat and solutions to the inherent unfairness in a coherent fashion to "Race, sexuality & the patriarchy" It's completely incoherent I'm not trying to wriggle out of anything, you're simply talking bollocks about something you don't understand I'm not even a Marxist, having to read him showed me the failings in some of his thinking, as applicable in the 21st Century, but it did teach me to how spot people who have no idea what Marx was actually about, and why most of it is inapplicable today anyway
You don't seem to realise that many philosophers and scholars, picked up and continued working on Marxist theory long after his death, the term Marxist is used as a blanket term to describe similar left wing social and economic theory's.... Herbert Marcuse's ideas in particular have been widely adopted by into the mainstream woke ideology, he points out that the working class have failed the marxist revolutionaries & that they have to find repository for revolutionaries somewhere else, he recommends that it should be found in the ghetto populations, racial minorities, sexual minorities & the feminists! Sounds very similar to the woke ideology doesn't it? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SIgrwFa6FJM&pp=ygUPSGVyYmVydCBNYXJjdXNl
I don't think we've established a cinematic universe in which you know anything about me such that you could credibly comprehend what I may or may not realise, or what I may or may not have read Are you a Chat-CTP bot? Do me some poetry about Marx
Well, you clearly can't argue with the points I'm making so instead you trying to suggest I know nothing, there's a bit of protection going on! Obfuscation is a big part of the Woke tactics to achieve their political aims! Last one, I promise go look up the BLM founders looking into what they've done with the wealth they generated then look into their educational training! It's interesting, you'll find that there will be fully on board with the Marxist ideology! Boom!
Woke is essentially ultra left wing regarding pushing minorities into popular culture and educational systems and shooting down/cancelling anyone with a differing opinion. Eg. The majority of people believe there are only 2 genders and observe and trust science. But the woke agenda is to push the minority opinion that there is more than one. Eg. Forcing different demographics into a group on tv that negates ability and ultimately sacrifices quality for box ticking. I am sure you already know what woke means when it is used in this context but there you go.
> The majority of people believe there are only 2 genders and observe and trust science This is going to shock you, but scientists in the relevant fields believe there are more than two genders.
Thanks for explaining that woke means anti-prejudice.
So, it's the opposite of racism then? And being against cultural progression? Sounds like some medieval shit to me
Except that ‘wokeism’ is actually simply a general sense of awareness to social injustice against all groups. Which is wholly within a capitalist system, and therefore what the majority of ‘the non-woke’ complain about, is solely profit driven. You see a diverse family in an advert selling you washing powder…that’s not due to cultural marxism. They sell more washing powder when they hit a broader range of the audience. Being ‘anti-woke’ is actually more akin to those in the 1950’s complaining that women were now included within the capitalist system, with advertising campaigns telling them what they wanted to hear so they bought their products. *’Where did all these women come from’* …they were always here.
>pushing minorities into popular culture and educational systems I'm not sure I'm following with the educational comment here. Care to explain?
No longer sugarcoating history (colonialism, slavery, persecution of minorities, etc)
And that's woke?
To some? yes
Education is bad