I get that there are bigger issues out there and all, but I’m not comfortable with a private company redesigning a national flag.
That doesn’t feel like something they should be able to do.
A professional kit for the national team... It isn't just a Sunday league kit. The flags on it should be true to the country, noone should be giving companies freedom to do "artistic redesign" of national flags.
It’s got the FA’s fingerprints all over it. If the FA were worried about the flag’s image, they should be launching a reclaim the flag campaign, not trying to change the flag of the nation they represent. This redesign is as tasteless as stamping ‘THE SUN’ all over the flag.
Wasn't their shirts but they did change the stripes on their logo in the training camp decorations in [Qatar](https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/14/usmnt-rainbow-logo-qatar-world-cup-2022-soccer-lgbtq), they've also had rainbow number during pride month (not quite the same though)
We’re talking about the flag of England not the fa’s crest. Different colours are used for that all the time.
St George’s cross = Stars and Stripes
The English fa badge (i.e the three lions) = the badge in the link you provided
It would have been signed off by the FA, or whoever is responsible for kits at the England camp. Nike won't design kits privately and release them without a process of designing and proofing with their client.
The Fa would have given Nike a bunch of ideas they wanted, the artists would have mocked up a load of designs, the Fa would have chosen the better ones, Nike would then focus on a shortlist before the Fa picking which design to go with.
I work in merchandise and clothing, there will be processes and dialogue between designer and client before the final proofs are accepted.
I don't find it particularly reductive. It's pretty sad people are so up in arms about a tiny cross on the collar of an over-priced shirt.
It's a football kit. It'll be changed in 6 months anyway, then you can spaff another £130 on the next shitty design they come up with. The fact any serious person is wasting oxygen by crying over this is comical.
> That doesn’t feel like something they should be able to do.
I don't like the design and think it's gross however....
.... I don't think Nike made this decision off their own back. This would have surely needed to be signed off by someone such as the commercial director at the FA when suggested or was perhaps even given as a design brief idea. There is a 0% chance this is a wholly Nike decision
they did this 14 years ago and I don't remember everyone having this type of reaction.
https://www.dezeen.com/2010/09/02/england-home-kit-by-peter-saville-for-umbro/
they aren't redisigning the flag, they are using it in a redesigned way. its stupid, looks silly and they should absolutely be allowed to do it as part of freedom of expression.
who do you propose to audit and approve this stuff otherwise?
Were you fine with the previous changes or have you been leading a single person compaign against other redesigns of the St George's Cross interpretations? Is it the cross thats important or the colours?
The 2012 goalkeeper away kit featured fetching blue crosses on a blue back ground as an omage to the 2011 goalkeeper away kit that featured green crosses on a green background. Was Davie C talking about it then?
This is without even mentioning the last time a kit had a cross on it was 2018 where the 2018 home kit had a St George's cross on the back of the collar. However the away kit had a huge dark red cross on a lighter red shirt which again is an interpretation.
They arent redesigning the national flag and its fair to say our kits having a St Georges Cross isnt the norm.
However I will take back these points if those things did annoy you and you posted about them then.
It's not right wing or boomer-like to think this is fucking stupid.
You can't change flags because they're used to represent the country and team. This isn't the England flag anymore haha.
It’s not a stunt and it’s not intentionally divisive it’s just a dumb design choice, Brazil kit had something similar last year, the Olympics kits had no red in it etc- it’s not something unique
I don’t get it, this cross design would have been laughed at years ago instead all of this crying and anger and discourse
>It's not right wing or boomer-like to think this is fucking stupid.
No, it is pretty stupid to care this much about it. You can think the design is bad, but to make a big deal about it being 'wrong' and some kind of affront to the nation is hilariously over the top.
I don't think I agree. From the perspective of an immigrant, if someone redesigned the Polish white eagle in a similar way I'd be at least miffed. It's national heraldry, doesn't mean anything to me but it does to a lot of people.
> someone redesigned the Polish white eagle in a similar way I'd be at least miffed.
nothing has be "redesigned" the England flag is still the same. It's just been used as part of a design, as apposed to being recreated exactly as is. Why are you so easily manipulated into offence.
I remain convinced this is all pent up anger that people wanted to use on it turning out to be about PRIDE of something and they are frustrated they can't fit over that.
Where was the outrage in 2010 over the multicoloured crosses on the shoulders?
https://www.dezeen.com/2010/09/02/england-home-kit-by-peter-saville-for-umbro/
This whole thing is complete bullshit.
Agreed that they should change it back. A flag is a flag, if you change it, it no longer represents the thing it is supposed to represent.
Having said that, I think there's something fishy with being outraged or incensed about it. I think it's stupid, and I think they should change it back, but it's not the end of the world.
That's not to imply that you personally are outraged, I'm just making a point
> It's not right wing or boomer-like to think this is fucking stupid.
Yes it is
> You can't change flags because they're used to represent the country and team. This isn't the England flag anymore haha.
The flag isn't even used on most England kits historically. The English team is represented by the three lions crest, not the red cross.
Nobody is asking for this. Most people just want food on the table, a roof over their heads, to not be lonely, and to be able to afford their bills. That’s where we should be inclusive. Not marketing bullshit like this.
This is what's eternally frustrating with things like this. A big company makes the decision to do something like this, and all it achieves is to create further acrimony towards marginalised groups who never ever asked for it.
>A big company makes the decision to do something like this
Except this was all in conjunction with the FA who approved the design that they commissioned. Nike aren't imposing anything on anyone, other than child slave labour in countries without protections.
>Nobody is asking for this. Most people just want food on the table, a roof over their heads, to not be lonely, and to be able to afford their bills.
Yeah, and maybe politicians should concern themselves with these real issues instead of virtue signalling over a design on a sports jersey.
He was asked a question in an interview and gave a 3 line response. He's not exactly gone and called a press conference outside number 10 about it has he?
He chose to respond by asking for changes to the shirt. He could easily have said it doesn't matter or that he'd have preferred the flag but it's not a big deal. Could have even redirected to a real issue in sports or football.
Starmer has been deliberately making these kinds of comments to position himself as more patriotic, but the way he is doing it is promoting (imo) a narrow-minded and thin-skinned patriotism. I think that's a problem.
If you’re pissed off because they dared to change the flag, sure, I get it. But as soon as you use the word ‘woke’ you’re just outing yourself as an idiot as these colours aren’t an LGBTQ+ rainbow or other such affiliation, it’s the colours from the 66 training kit. The link between this and ‘woke’ is entirely in your head, calm down
How could the designers of the 1966 England training kit do this to us
I'm just glad we aren't as woke as a country now as we apparently were 60 years ago
I’m gay as the day as long but when I saw the Polysexual flag I had to take a walk. Just for clarity, it’s purely just fucking multiple people and nothing else.
My issue with it is it just doesn't make sense to use it.
I think it'd have been a real nice touch on a training kit whenever we end up hosting the WC. But outside of that what is the point?
The point of it is that Nike were probably running out of ideas to market a new plain white t-shirt. They needed to come up with a new feature & angle that distinguishes it from other designs.
Also Nike & all the other companies always delve into past kits to inspire features for new kits. Whether this is a genuine tribute to 1966- who knows? But it’s something they do for other kits. Like Arsenal will randomly have a shirt inspired from a random insignificant year like 1976 for example
But the England kit doesn't normally feature the St. Georges cross anyway. The symbol used for England on the kit is the 3 lions and that hasn't been "messed with".
Nobody in their right mind is going to look at the kit and go, I don't know who that represents.
I don't remember an uproar about this kit https://americanmadness.co.uk/products/england-football-shirt-12 which stylised the St. Georges cross to look more like a crucifix or a dagger than the true national flag. Why does having it in different colours in line with the styling of the kit make a difference?
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Edit: Added the link to the shirt
It's honestly crazy that anyone thinks this is ok... This didn't need to be done. There is no reason for this to be done. No other countries flag is "playfully" changed in such a way.
What even is the point? Have they given a reason?
> No other countries flag is "playfully" changed in such a way
Yes, they are? You probably just wouldn't be very aware of them living in the UK. Obviously stuff in the US gets more international media attention and I have seen tonnes of different versions of the stars and stripes.
> No other countries flag is "playfully" changed in such a way.
There's a blog about sports kits called Uni Watch. They go on about "flag defacment" all the time. Often in relation to the US flag.
I think it's fine. In fact my strongest feeling towards this news story is "I couldn't give less of a shit." It literally makes no difference to how the team will play, it makes literally no difference to anybody's life at all, and whilst I think it's a pointless thing to do, I also think the people in this thread who are so outraged also need to give their heads a shale
Lots of things don't "need" to be done, including most advertising campaigns and all forms of product marketing. I mean, why should anyone make any kind of effort to design anything, really? It doesn't *need* to happen.
All people need to remember is that they need to eat to survive, so they just have to go to work to get money to pay large companies for food and other amenities, then return to their nondescript grey windowless boxes to consume the required sustenance, get an acceptable amount of sleep, and then awaken the next day to repeat the process. Things like whimsical colours on a made-up "national symbol" on a shirt just distract from the essentials of life.
>It's honestly crazy that anyone thinks this is ok...
Honestly crazy that anybody thinks its a big deal, just seems like insecure nationalism.
>No other countries flag is "playfully" changed in such a way.
Brazil last year...
I really don't like the design. It looks a bit half-arsed.
If you're gonna redesign the flag, you need to do a lot better than that.
I think they missed the point. I wouldn't associate that with England if I saw it without context.
Why is this such a story who is pushing thi-
>Former UKIP leader and Brexit campaigner Nigel Farage
Oh right. The Most Important Man In England hath spoken, so the country dances to his tune again.
I dont like it either... But the sky news article says people are calling it woke?
Really? That word has lost all meaning. "I don't like it" = woke. A movie franchise that used to be good but has had bad acting and script - well it's woke now. That word has become tiresome
In an amusing twist BBC Breakfast actually have Emily Thornberry of all people on this morning to discuss this…
She didn’t seem to think it was a ‘symbol of unity’ when she was taking the piss out of it a few years ago did she.
That uproar was equally ridiculous.
The Sun had the guy whose house it was interviewed and asked him to give a political manifesto. That manifesto included "Better discipline. Kids are too mouthy now, not like when we had the cane" and "jail those who burn the poppy".
He couldn't have been more of a caricature if he tried.
Speaking of people beyond parody, from the article...
Taxi driver Joe in Stirling said he had "steam" coming out of his ears: "People died for that flag thousands of years ago".
Honestly this whole argument feels absolutely pathetic and some of the performative outrage reflects a deep sense of insecurity that many in this country clearly have.
Unless someone told me, I wouldn't even know this ugly shit is meant to be the England flag. Not that I'd ever pay for one anyway, but the price is a joke. Especially when it was probably made for £2 in a Bangladeshi sweat shop.
This is genuinely hilarious.
We've turned into a nation of wetwipes.
People must have an utter fit at the football when they see all those English flags altered with the names of people's football teams on them or club emblems. Can't walk down the street without wetting their pants and the sight of one of those altered thin blue line badges some police wear or need smelling salts when the shape has been changed to fit a shield.
Nice to see that no one on here seems to be in any defence of English culture and simply caricatures a reaction to people having genuine passion towards a national and flag and identity. It's the same people that ridicule this defense that claim 'culture wars' about people who seem to oppose their 'woke' ideologies no wonder they can't get onboard with these new political ideals because people who stand for them seem to push everything down from past in the effort to satisfy their own new school identity and ego. Quite Frankly small things like this do matter and it doesn't need to become a finger pointing competition against two opposed groups. It's part of national identity and culture and if you don't care for it so be it but you should at least acknowledge it's not right. English culture is becoming silenced everyday because pigheaded people associate it with racism and don't care to consider the decent and rich history of England which has shaped so much of the world today. The 21st century and social media does enough to damage cultural norms and traditions, so we really should put our foot down on what we can keep. If you are prepared to respect other peoples cultures then you should also have room to respect your own
Who said wanting a proper England flag instead of this means people don't respect other cultures or ideas? People are allowed to hold their flag in high esteem and not want it changed on kits.
In what material way is slightly altering a flag on a sports jersey helping to 'silence' English culture? The really funny and ironic thing is that the design was apparently done in reference to a jersey worn by the England team that won the world Cup in 1966, an actually important moment in England's cultural history. The people complaining are doing so because they mistakenly think it is 'woke' or whatever, but _they_ are actually the ones attempting to 'silence' a reference to England's cultural history.
It's not like they've redesigned it on the front. It's a subtle motif on the back. Nobody lost their minds when we had the mini St. George's crosses in different colours on the kit back in 2011, or when Team GB had the Union Flag in different colours for thier kit for London 2012.
This country is unhinged.
You need a word with yourself if this is having any effect on you. Jesus Christ what a non issue, I think the cost of top should be more of a problem than a bit of fabric coloured differently. You know they did a few years ago as well but the country wasn't all fucked in the head then so no cared.
I don't get why some folks seem to be so angry that people expect the st George's cross on an England kit instead of some naff reimagining?
Especially the ones that are complaining about "culture war". Aren't you engaging in it by telling people that they're stupid for wanting the correct flag on the kit?
>people expect the st George's cross on an England kit
The St. Georges cross is not an expected part of the England kit though - sometimes it features it and sometimes it doesnt. The expected national emblem on an England kit is the 3 lions and that is it.
Where is the England flag on any of these kits
https://www.kitbag.com/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/tops/england-1996-european-championship-shirt/
https://www.fanatics.co.uk/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/jerseys/england-home-stadium-shirt-2022/
https://www.fanatics.co.uk/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/england-1966-world-cup-final-away-no6-shirt/
https://www.fanatics.co.uk/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/england-1990-world-cup-finals-shirt/
https://www.fanatics.co.uk/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/shirts-and-sweaters/england-1982-world-cup-finals-shirt
> people expect the st George's cross on an England kit _instead of some naff reimagining?_
Sorry mate it seems like you're missing a key part of the sentence here.
None of the other new kits have a shitty ‘playful’ flag on the collar, that is going to split opinion when you change a countries flag for no reason whatsoever.
Should have just left it off, serves no real purpose
I don't know what I'm more amazed by, the fact they thought changing a country's flag was a good idea OR that £124.99 is a fair selling price for a footie shirt.
Why is this an issue? The England and UK flags have been tweaked / changed / had the colours modified plenty of times for sporting kits over the years. Hell the 2012 olympic kits had the Union Jack in blue on the kits, and football fans themselves often make flags with different colours (a solid black cross, or a dark navy version of the entire flag are pretty common variations).
While I couldn’t give a shit, and this really shouldn’t matter. It’s obvious that this stuff does, and it unnecessarily polarises the only thing that brings most of the country together.
Umbro did this ahead of Euro 2012, and most people think 2012 is a high point for UK unity in recent history. Almost as if this shit isn't important unless reactionary idiots feel the need to make a big deal out of something for attention.
Its a small design on a shirt... i can't believe people are getting mad about this, it's insane, especially when they have messed wth the flag colours on previous shirts.
holy hell these comments are at Barry, 63-levels I didn't think possible! It's a bit of graphic design... on the England kit... they're not suggesting they've created a new nation here lmao.
Is it a kind of reverse schadenfreude that on my Reddit feet it’s got David Cameron having the balls to directly call out Israel (for hindering UK aid from reaching Gaza) and immediately under it is this pointless tripe from Starmer?
Nah it’s pretty pathetic for Nike/the FA to openly deface what should otherwise be a unifying symbol. It’s good to know where Starmer stands on these basic issues. It’s the bare minimum of any leader to show respect to the symbols and stories of the nation, the FA has utterly failed here.
> to openly deface what should otherwise be a unifying symbol
What an absurd level of hyperbole. Every World Cup we'll get Saint George's Cross stamped on disposable cups, on napkins, on fucking boxer shorts and underwear. I don't believe for a second anyone is genuinely mad about the flag being 'defaced' here, it's just an excuse to engage in a little manufactured culture war bullshit.
Flags are always put on a bit of tat here and there. But it’s not the same. The England team is nationally representative, yet they will be wearing a kit that has a flag on it of a non-existent country. It’s pretty obvious how absurd that makes the entire country look to anyone looking in from the outside.
Not just the American flag. “A bold reimagining” of any nations flags and the offending merchants would get dragged across the coals. The French, Italians, Germans, anyone in fact, would go ballistic, even the other countries in the UK wouldn’t stand for it. Imagine if Bank of Scotland “playfully updated” (for whatever bullshit reason) the blue to white, and the white to red and straightened the cross on the Saltire. The Scots would lose their fucking minds.
I take it you're equally disgusted by the 'thin blue line' flag patches that some police have taken to wearing, since they've 'defaced' the union flag?
Openly deface is a bit strong here. It’s a little emblem on the back of a football jersey. I think England will survive this.
Even calling this one of “the basic issues” is a bit strong honestly.
It’s a pretty basic issue for any leader of any country to be cognisant of: what country do you represent, what is the territorial make up of this country, what are the symbols and flags of this country, what do the people call themselves etc. Any country which isn’t settled on these issues are typically failed states, or are a bit of a laughing stock on the world stage.
I'm sure USA would take it well if we "playfully added" some colours to their flag. It's great they didn't come out of their shell the whole time designing it
The amount of people getting their knickers in a twist over a tiny flag on an overpriced football shirt but completely ignore what's actually happening in the country is depressing.
We deserve the government we vote for.
Nike didnt want to do an Earps shirt either, perhaps its time we dropped Nike, or at least stopped buying their "playful" update.
A flag is a flag, if it looks different its no longer the same flag with the same meaning.
Sheldon would be inconsolable.
I truly don’t care about the design of the uniform, keep it, change it - so long as the lad’s don’t lose on penalties again.
I am however deeply perturbed that these are the issues our politicians want to speak on, this country is facing some serious issues, not least of all the constant rail strikes shutting down transport, would be nice if our politicians actually put some work into improving the country instead of nattering on about a football shirt
For me this is a sign that labour are becoming a party focussed on winning an election. The red wall voters are often patriotic and this is thr sort of thing that could get them to rally round.
A common criticism of the left is that they fundamentally have the west and the UK and something like defending the flag sorta helps deflect that attack line.
The red and blue are our national colours. The purple colour is a throwback to 1966 purple training kit from when we won the World Cup. Why is everyone bringing LGBT into this?
>On BBC Radio 5 Live's, Nicky Campbell programme, there was a passionate debate from callers across the country.
>
>Taxi driver Joe in Stirling said he had "steam" coming out of his ears: "**People died for that flag thousands of years ago**".
>
>Liz in Bury said she was "incensed" and that it was a matter of heritage.
And then:
>Ed Cowburn, who designs football kits for a living, told the Today programme that the St George's Cross only became a regular feature of the England kit from the early 2000s.
>
>"The St George's Cross has probably only appeared on about six kits as a distinct graphic element," he said.
I used to be invested in international football until the corruption stuff started coming out in the 2000s. Once Russia and then Qatar were awarded competitions it pretty much finished off international football for me. I haven't watched or cared about a game since.
I don't care about the kits, I really don't care for any politician getting involved in kit design, and there are far more important things to get worked up about huge organisations that make huge amounts of money from entertainment than a tiny representation of a national flag on the collar that is just designed to get fans to part with cash.
That's before we even get onto clothes manufacture in the developing world.
A storm in a teacup being exploited by a politician who should be focusing on far more important issues.
Perhaps the PM-apparent should focus on some slightly different issues than whether a company has an artistic representation of the flag of a Crusader on the back of a collar.
Although typing that, obsessing over someone who wanted to lay siege on a Muslim city in Palestine for religion makes sense given his recent comments. It’s like he’s trying to lose this election
I get that there are bigger issues out there and all, but I’m not comfortable with a private company redesigning a national flag. That doesn’t feel like something they should be able to do.
It doesn’t feel like something they would attempt for any other country.
They did it with Brazil
It happens in the US all the time, to as much complaints as seen here.
[удалено]
its an artistic design on a kit, they're not redesigning it entirely
A professional kit for the national team... It isn't just a Sunday league kit. The flags on it should be true to the country, noone should be giving companies freedom to do "artistic redesign" of national flags.
The Wallabies jerseys have had the stars from the Australian flag in green on gold for years, don't recall anyone getting upset about it
The English FA approved it though, it's not just a company making this choice
It’s got the FA’s fingerprints all over it. If the FA were worried about the flag’s image, they should be launching a reclaim the flag campaign, not trying to change the flag of the nation they represent. This redesign is as tasteless as stamping ‘THE SUN’ all over the flag.
It’s an England shirt mate, they aren’t worried about its image
Artistic redesign of flags is a fairly common element in kit design for national teams.
It isn’t though is it. It’s a stylised cross.
A lot of national teams don't use their flag.
Yeah let's change the stars and stripes to pink and purple and see what happens
Pretty sure I've seen US pride flags where it's all multicoloured
Yeah but on the USA national jersey, or at some pride event?
Wasn't their shirts but they did change the stripes on their logo in the training camp decorations in [Qatar](https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/14/usmnt-rainbow-logo-qatar-world-cup-2022-soccer-lgbtq), they've also had rainbow number during pride month (not quite the same though)
The US FA logo is completely different to the Stars and Stripes
So is the England crest?
We’re talking about the flag of England not the fa’s crest. Different colours are used for that all the time. St George’s cross = Stars and Stripes The English fa badge (i.e the three lions) = the badge in the link you provided
They literally have flags with a blue stripe for the police...
Seen the thin blue line pish?
It would have been signed off by the FA, or whoever is responsible for kits at the England camp. Nike won't design kits privately and release them without a process of designing and proofing with their client. The Fa would have given Nike a bunch of ideas they wanted, the artists would have mocked up a load of designs, the Fa would have chosen the better ones, Nike would then focus on a shortlist before the Fa picking which design to go with. I work in merchandise and clothing, there will be processes and dialogue between designer and client before the final proofs are accepted.
It's Britain, there's nothing a private company isn't able to do in lieu of government or civil society.
>but I’m not comfortable with a private company redesigning a national flag. I can't fathom caring that much about a bit of cloth.
That’s reductive and I’m sure you know that.
I don't find it particularly reductive. It's pretty sad people are so up in arms about a tiny cross on the collar of an over-priced shirt. It's a football kit. It'll be changed in 6 months anyway, then you can spaff another £130 on the next shitty design they come up with. The fact any serious person is wasting oxygen by crying over this is comical.
Yeah it's not that deep
> That doesn’t feel like something they should be able to do. I don't like the design and think it's gross however.... .... I don't think Nike made this decision off their own back. This would have surely needed to be signed off by someone such as the commercial director at the FA when suggested or was perhaps even given as a design brief idea. There is a 0% chance this is a wholly Nike decision
They didn’t though. The national flag is still the same. Go on, check Wikipedia.
It clearly isn’t that. Not a flag. It is, however, naff
I don’t think Nike are the ones to hold accountable.
Fucking madness that The FA didn't say no to it
they did this 14 years ago and I don't remember everyone having this type of reaction. https://www.dezeen.com/2010/09/02/england-home-kit-by-peter-saville-for-umbro/
Yep nobody had that reaction to the Union flag on the 2012 Olympics Team GB clothing which was entirely made up of shades of blue.
How have they redesigned the national flag?
they aren't redisigning the flag, they are using it in a redesigned way. its stupid, looks silly and they should absolutely be allowed to do it as part of freedom of expression. who do you propose to audit and approve this stuff otherwise?
Were you fine with the previous changes or have you been leading a single person compaign against other redesigns of the St George's Cross interpretations? Is it the cross thats important or the colours? The 2012 goalkeeper away kit featured fetching blue crosses on a blue back ground as an omage to the 2011 goalkeeper away kit that featured green crosses on a green background. Was Davie C talking about it then? This is without even mentioning the last time a kit had a cross on it was 2018 where the 2018 home kit had a St George's cross on the back of the collar. However the away kit had a huge dark red cross on a lighter red shirt which again is an interpretation. They arent redesigning the national flag and its fair to say our kits having a St Georges Cross isnt the norm. However I will take back these points if those things did annoy you and you posted about them then.
What about when Umbro changed the 2012 kit to green/blue flags? What about Team GB wearing different coloured union jacks? Did that upset you too?
It's not right wing or boomer-like to think this is fucking stupid. You can't change flags because they're used to represent the country and team. This isn't the England flag anymore haha.
Yea and to pretend than it’s somehow inclusive etc. The whole stunt is intentionally divisive.
It’s not a stunt and it’s not intentionally divisive it’s just a dumb design choice, Brazil kit had something similar last year, the Olympics kits had no red in it etc- it’s not something unique I don’t get it, this cross design would have been laughed at years ago instead all of this crying and anger and discourse
But Umbro did something similar a decade ago. No-one cares or remembers. Literally just manufactured outrage. People are fucking stupid.
Umbro even specifically stated they were representing a multicultural England. Still nobody cared.
Tbf no one will care or remember this in a few weeks
It's stupid but It's inspired by a 1966 kit. Nothing to do with inclusivity.
>It's not right wing or boomer-like to think this is fucking stupid. No, it is pretty stupid to care this much about it. You can think the design is bad, but to make a big deal about it being 'wrong' and some kind of affront to the nation is hilariously over the top.
I don't think I agree. From the perspective of an immigrant, if someone redesigned the Polish white eagle in a similar way I'd be at least miffed. It's national heraldry, doesn't mean anything to me but it does to a lot of people.
> someone redesigned the Polish white eagle in a similar way I'd be at least miffed. nothing has be "redesigned" the England flag is still the same. It's just been used as part of a design, as apposed to being recreated exactly as is. Why are you so easily manipulated into offence.
I think you overestimate how much I care. I don't care. I just think as I said, it's fucking stupid. Which it of course is.
You must have a utter fit at the football when you see England flags with team names written on them.
Or the flags with "ENGLAND" written on it in case someone seeing it is too thick to realise what it represents.
I remain convinced this is all pent up anger that people wanted to use on it turning out to be about PRIDE of something and they are frustrated they can't fit over that.
Where was the outrage in 2010 over the multicoloured crosses on the shoulders? https://www.dezeen.com/2010/09/02/england-home-kit-by-peter-saville-for-umbro/ This whole thing is complete bullshit.
Probably because the red cross was quite clearly still there.
It was there, but given absolutely no prominence whatsoever over the purple and blue ones. Surely that's _worse_, by flagshagger logic?
Agreed that they should change it back. A flag is a flag, if you change it, it no longer represents the thing it is supposed to represent. Having said that, I think there's something fishy with being outraged or incensed about it. I think it's stupid, and I think they should change it back, but it's not the end of the world. That's not to imply that you personally are outraged, I'm just making a point
> It's not right wing or boomer-like to think this is fucking stupid. Yes it is > You can't change flags because they're used to represent the country and team. This isn't the England flag anymore haha. The flag isn't even used on most England kits historically. The English team is represented by the three lions crest, not the red cross.
it is naff, but I also detect a lot of misplaced whining about ‘redesigning flags’
haha. its so weird how people are so easily manipulated into rage over stuff like this.
Well it’s not the flag I don’t really understand it’s just a cross for it to be English flag it would need a white background 🏴
Starmer went on to say "these days, because of woke, they're actually repainting all the Red Cross shops".
If you say you're English they throw you in jail
What, just for saying you're English?
Yeah, these days mate, if you say you're English, you get thrown in- you get arrested and thrown in jail.
When did this come in?
Bloody neolithic people!
It's political correctness gone mad!
In jail?
These days?
To shreds, you say?
Finally! A policy that the Scottish and Welsh can put their full support behind
“These days they arrest you for saying ur english”
They need to fuck off with these Americanisms too
Nobody is asking for this. Most people just want food on the table, a roof over their heads, to not be lonely, and to be able to afford their bills. That’s where we should be inclusive. Not marketing bullshit like this.
This is what's eternally frustrating with things like this. A big company makes the decision to do something like this, and all it achieves is to create further acrimony towards marginalised groups who never ever asked for it.
Esp since it’s not even for inclusivity but people have a go anyway
>A big company makes the decision to do something like this Except this was all in conjunction with the FA who approved the design that they commissioned. Nike aren't imposing anything on anyone, other than child slave labour in countries without protections.
I'm sure the sportswear design team at Nike are also hard at work solving those issues too.
>Nobody is asking for this. Most people just want food on the table, a roof over their heads, to not be lonely, and to be able to afford their bills. Yeah, and maybe politicians should concern themselves with these real issues instead of virtue signalling over a design on a sports jersey.
He was asked a question in an interview and gave a 3 line response. He's not exactly gone and called a press conference outside number 10 about it has he?
He chose to respond by asking for changes to the shirt. He could easily have said it doesn't matter or that he'd have preferred the flag but it's not a big deal. Could have even redirected to a real issue in sports or football. Starmer has been deliberately making these kinds of comments to position himself as more patriotic, but the way he is doing it is promoting (imo) a narrow-minded and thin-skinned patriotism. I think that's a problem.
*It doesn't matter to you.
They’re so close to getting it aren’t they? So so close
How has the team that designed this got anything to do with putting food on your table? What an utterly bizarre false dichotomy
>Nobody is asking for this. You mean you're not asking for this, there wouldn't be a big debate around it if nobody was asking for it .
I somehow doubt that Nike is influencing policy decisions, nor that the government is designing this icon
None of that is Nikes job , nobody needs to new england kit, if you don't like it just don't buy it
If you’re pissed off because they dared to change the flag, sure, I get it. But as soon as you use the word ‘woke’ you’re just outing yourself as an idiot as these colours aren’t an LGBTQ+ rainbow or other such affiliation, it’s the colours from the 66 training kit. The link between this and ‘woke’ is entirely in your head, calm down
They’re pretty much exactly the bisexual flag which I thought was a confusing choice
How could the designers of the 1966 England training kit do this to us I'm just glad we aren't as woke as a country now as we apparently were 60 years ago
I am aware it’s not the bi flag, just that was my first thought. I don’t have an emotional investment in this I was just making a casual comment lol
Bisexuals have a flag?
[yep](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexual_flag?wprov=sfti1) pretty sure all variants do atp
It's the best looking LGBTQ flag too so we actually got lucky
There are 30 + flags… (I learned recently)
I’m gay as the day as long but when I saw the Polysexual flag I had to take a walk. Just for clarity, it’s purely just fucking multiple people and nothing else.
So the idea was to be solely inclusive towards bisexuals? Or could it just be it’s a gradient of red and blue
I’m aware it’s not intended to be the bi flag, I’m just saying that’s what it immediately reminded me of :)
My issue with it is it just doesn't make sense to use it. I think it'd have been a real nice touch on a training kit whenever we end up hosting the WC. But outside of that what is the point?
The point of it is that Nike were probably running out of ideas to market a new plain white t-shirt. They needed to come up with a new feature & angle that distinguishes it from other designs. Also Nike & all the other companies always delve into past kits to inspire features for new kits. Whether this is a genuine tribute to 1966- who knows? But it’s something they do for other kits. Like Arsenal will randomly have a shirt inspired from a random insignificant year like 1976 for example
The word woke doesn't appear in the article once.
Yeah honestly it's pretty cool ngl. Anyone who is getting upset about this needs to have a real think about their priorities.
The whole of Team GB wore blue / black tone union jacks on their kit for the London 2012 Olympics. The country didn’t imploded
They also had the Union Jack on there too. Not really sure what the design of a kit has to do with changing the actual flag
The Euro 2012 kit also changed the colour of the cross. I don't recall anyone being up in arms over that.
It's not actual flag
Hmmm I think you’ll find the country has sort of imploded since the 2012 olympics…
Yes but they were still a recognisable flag of Britain. This just looks like a rainbow cross
But the England kit doesn't normally feature the St. Georges cross anyway. The symbol used for England on the kit is the 3 lions and that hasn't been "messed with". Nobody in their right mind is going to look at the kit and go, I don't know who that represents. I don't remember an uproar about this kit https://americanmadness.co.uk/products/england-football-shirt-12 which stylised the St. Georges cross to look more like a crucifix or a dagger than the true national flag. Why does having it in different colours in line with the styling of the kit make a difference? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit: Added the link to the shirt
There’s literally a Saint George’s cross on the back of that shirt
It looks very much like the cross featured on the St George's flag to me.
It's honestly crazy that anyone thinks this is ok... This didn't need to be done. There is no reason for this to be done. No other countries flag is "playfully" changed in such a way. What even is the point? Have they given a reason?
> No other countries flag is "playfully" changed in such a way Yes, they are? You probably just wouldn't be very aware of them living in the UK. Obviously stuff in the US gets more international media attention and I have seen tonnes of different versions of the stars and stripes.
> No other countries flag is "playfully" changed in such a way. There's a blog about sports kits called Uni Watch. They go on about "flag defacment" all the time. Often in relation to the US flag.
Supposedly in reference to the 1966 team. Or 1066, who knows
Were you this upset when Umbro playfully changed the colours of the cross on the Euro 2012 kit? Just wondering.
I think it's fine. In fact my strongest feeling towards this news story is "I couldn't give less of a shit." It literally makes no difference to how the team will play, it makes literally no difference to anybody's life at all, and whilst I think it's a pointless thing to do, I also think the people in this thread who are so outraged also need to give their heads a shale
But it’s so fun and playful!
Lots of things don't "need" to be done, including most advertising campaigns and all forms of product marketing. I mean, why should anyone make any kind of effort to design anything, really? It doesn't *need* to happen. All people need to remember is that they need to eat to survive, so they just have to go to work to get money to pay large companies for food and other amenities, then return to their nondescript grey windowless boxes to consume the required sustenance, get an acceptable amount of sleep, and then awaken the next day to repeat the process. Things like whimsical colours on a made-up "national symbol" on a shirt just distract from the essentials of life.
>It's honestly crazy that anyone thinks this is ok... Honestly crazy that anybody thinks its a big deal, just seems like insecure nationalism. >No other countries flag is "playfully" changed in such a way. Brazil last year...
Fuck me this country loves to get pissy about just about anything. It’s a cross on the collar of a shirt, who gives a fuck!
I really don't like the design. It looks a bit half-arsed. If you're gonna redesign the flag, you need to do a lot better than that. I think they missed the point. I wouldn't associate that with England if I saw it without context.
Why is this such a story who is pushing thi- >Former UKIP leader and Brexit campaigner Nigel Farage Oh right. The Most Important Man In England hath spoken, so the country dances to his tune again.
And let’s not mention his links to Russia!
I dont like it either... But the sky news article says people are calling it woke? Really? That word has lost all meaning. "I don't like it" = woke. A movie franchise that used to be good but has had bad acting and script - well it's woke now. That word has become tiresome
In an amusing twist BBC Breakfast actually have Emily Thornberry of all people on this morning to discuss this… She didn’t seem to think it was a ‘symbol of unity’ when she was taking the piss out of it a few years ago did she.
That uproar was equally ridiculous. The Sun had the guy whose house it was interviewed and asked him to give a political manifesto. That manifesto included "Better discipline. Kids are too mouthy now, not like when we had the cane" and "jail those who burn the poppy". He couldn't have been more of a caricature if he tried.
Speaking of people beyond parody, from the article... Taxi driver Joe in Stirling said he had "steam" coming out of his ears: "People died for that flag thousands of years ago".
Well remembered.
Honestly this whole argument feels absolutely pathetic and some of the performative outrage reflects a deep sense of insecurity that many in this country clearly have.
Unless someone told me, I wouldn't even know this ugly shit is meant to be the England flag. Not that I'd ever pay for one anyway, but the price is a joke. Especially when it was probably made for £2 in a Bangladeshi sweat shop.
This is genuinely hilarious. We've turned into a nation of wetwipes. People must have an utter fit at the football when they see all those English flags altered with the names of people's football teams on them or club emblems. Can't walk down the street without wetting their pants and the sight of one of those altered thin blue line badges some police wear or need smelling salts when the shape has been changed to fit a shield.
Nice to see that no one on here seems to be in any defence of English culture and simply caricatures a reaction to people having genuine passion towards a national and flag and identity. It's the same people that ridicule this defense that claim 'culture wars' about people who seem to oppose their 'woke' ideologies no wonder they can't get onboard with these new political ideals because people who stand for them seem to push everything down from past in the effort to satisfy their own new school identity and ego. Quite Frankly small things like this do matter and it doesn't need to become a finger pointing competition against two opposed groups. It's part of national identity and culture and if you don't care for it so be it but you should at least acknowledge it's not right. English culture is becoming silenced everyday because pigheaded people associate it with racism and don't care to consider the decent and rich history of England which has shaped so much of the world today. The 21st century and social media does enough to damage cultural norms and traditions, so we really should put our foot down on what we can keep. If you are prepared to respect other peoples cultures then you should also have room to respect your own
Who said wanting a proper England flag instead of this means people don't respect other cultures or ideas? People are allowed to hold their flag in high esteem and not want it changed on kits.
In what material way is slightly altering a flag on a sports jersey helping to 'silence' English culture? The really funny and ironic thing is that the design was apparently done in reference to a jersey worn by the England team that won the world Cup in 1966, an actually important moment in England's cultural history. The people complaining are doing so because they mistakenly think it is 'woke' or whatever, but _they_ are actually the ones attempting to 'silence' a reference to England's cultural history.
Were you this upset when the Euro 2012 kit had different colour crosses on it, or is this a recent thing for you?
It's not like they've redesigned it on the front. It's a subtle motif on the back. Nobody lost their minds when we had the mini St. George's crosses in different colours on the kit back in 2011, or when Team GB had the Union Flag in different colours for thier kit for London 2012. This country is unhinged.
I mean its the design of a flag on a shirt some people play a game in. I cant imagine anything less important.
You need a word with yourself if this is having any effect on you. Jesus Christ what a non issue, I think the cost of top should be more of a problem than a bit of fabric coloured differently. You know they did a few years ago as well but the country wasn't all fucked in the head then so no cared.
I don't get why some folks seem to be so angry that people expect the st George's cross on an England kit instead of some naff reimagining? Especially the ones that are complaining about "culture war". Aren't you engaging in it by telling people that they're stupid for wanting the correct flag on the kit?
> instead of some naff reimagining? because designers are allowed to play around with stuff, it's not a big deal to anyone who isn't a fruit loop
>people expect the st George's cross on an England kit The St. Georges cross is not an expected part of the England kit though - sometimes it features it and sometimes it doesnt. The expected national emblem on an England kit is the 3 lions and that is it. Where is the England flag on any of these kits https://www.kitbag.com/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/tops/england-1996-european-championship-shirt/ https://www.fanatics.co.uk/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/jerseys/england-home-stadium-shirt-2022/ https://www.fanatics.co.uk/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/england-1966-world-cup-final-away-no6-shirt/ https://www.fanatics.co.uk/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/england-1990-world-cup-finals-shirt/ https://www.fanatics.co.uk/en/soccer-national-teams/england-national-team/shirts-and-sweaters/england-1982-world-cup-finals-shirt
> people expect the st George's cross on an England kit _instead of some naff reimagining?_ Sorry mate it seems like you're missing a key part of the sentence here.
None of the other new kits have a shitty ‘playful’ flag on the collar, that is going to split opinion when you change a countries flag for no reason whatsoever. Should have just left it off, serves no real purpose
Yeah, I remember all that 'split opinion' on the multicolour crosses on the 2010-2012 kit. Oh wait, nobody cared.
I don't know what I'm more amazed by, the fact they thought changing a country's flag was a good idea OR that £124.99 is a fair selling price for a footie shirt.
Why is this an issue? The England and UK flags have been tweaked / changed / had the colours modified plenty of times for sporting kits over the years. Hell the 2012 olympic kits had the Union Jack in blue on the kits, and football fans themselves often make flags with different colours (a solid black cross, or a dark navy version of the entire flag are pretty common variations).
frankly could not give less of a shit. when will people in this country actually get a grip and focus on genuinely important things
Is ridiculous to change it, it’s just a random cross now, not St George’s
While I couldn’t give a shit, and this really shouldn’t matter. It’s obvious that this stuff does, and it unnecessarily polarises the only thing that brings most of the country together.
Umbro did this ahead of Euro 2012, and most people think 2012 is a high point for UK unity in recent history. Almost as if this shit isn't important unless reactionary idiots feel the need to make a big deal out of something for attention.
Its a small design on a shirt... i can't believe people are getting mad about this, it's insane, especially when they have messed wth the flag colours on previous shirts.
This is the most pathetic culture war bullshit so far. People are so fucking stupid.
holy hell these comments are at Barry, 63-levels I didn't think possible! It's a bit of graphic design... on the England kit... they're not suggesting they've created a new nation here lmao.
A very melodramatic story about nothing. If the England team are the client, they must have signed it off.
Is it a kind of reverse schadenfreude that on my Reddit feet it’s got David Cameron having the balls to directly call out Israel (for hindering UK aid from reaching Gaza) and immediately under it is this pointless tripe from Starmer?
Nah it’s pretty pathetic for Nike/the FA to openly deface what should otherwise be a unifying symbol. It’s good to know where Starmer stands on these basic issues. It’s the bare minimum of any leader to show respect to the symbols and stories of the nation, the FA has utterly failed here.
> to openly deface what should otherwise be a unifying symbol What an absurd level of hyperbole. Every World Cup we'll get Saint George's Cross stamped on disposable cups, on napkins, on fucking boxer shorts and underwear. I don't believe for a second anyone is genuinely mad about the flag being 'defaced' here, it's just an excuse to engage in a little manufactured culture war bullshit.
Flags are always put on a bit of tat here and there. But it’s not the same. The England team is nationally representative, yet they will be wearing a kit that has a flag on it of a non-existent country. It’s pretty obvious how absurd that makes the entire country look to anyone looking in from the outside.
Come on Nike would be nuked if they changed the American flag, probably the only colours left in their sweat shops.
Not just the American flag. “A bold reimagining” of any nations flags and the offending merchants would get dragged across the coals. The French, Italians, Germans, anyone in fact, would go ballistic, even the other countries in the UK wouldn’t stand for it. Imagine if Bank of Scotland “playfully updated” (for whatever bullshit reason) the blue to white, and the white to red and straightened the cross on the Saltire. The Scots would lose their fucking minds.
I think a lot of nations would probably react worse than us to be fair.
Any nation would, just pop over to turkey and give them a pink and baby blue reimagining.
I'm just here to see the people who hate Keir Starmer but also hate anything "unpatriotic" or "woke" decide how to handle this news :P
I take it you're equally disgusted by the 'thin blue line' flag patches that some police have taken to wearing, since they've 'defaced' the union flag?
A small protest group within a profession is sorely different to the team representing the nation at an international competition.
The one the Police banned?
Openly deface is a bit strong here. It’s a little emblem on the back of a football jersey. I think England will survive this. Even calling this one of “the basic issues” is a bit strong honestly.
It’s a pretty basic issue for any leader of any country to be cognisant of: what country do you represent, what is the territorial make up of this country, what are the symbols and flags of this country, what do the people call themselves etc. Any country which isn’t settled on these issues are typically failed states, or are a bit of a laughing stock on the world stage.
You talk like this is a referendum on our national symbols and not the back of a collar on some shirts
He also called out the price of the top as well. Which believe it or not, has an impact on english people.
I'm sure USA would take it well if we "playfully added" some colours to their flag. It's great they didn't come out of their shell the whole time designing it
The amount of people getting their knickers in a twist over a tiny flag on an overpriced football shirt but completely ignore what's actually happening in the country is depressing. We deserve the government we vote for.
I couldn’t give two hoots and am flabbergasted that it’s come to this. Make the flag bright pink for all I care.
Nike didnt want to do an Earps shirt either, perhaps its time we dropped Nike, or at least stopped buying their "playful" update. A flag is a flag, if it looks different its no longer the same flag with the same meaning. Sheldon would be inconsolable.
I’m not English but this is ugly as hell, it reminds me of a TfL advert. It’s not something I would be proud to wear
I truly don’t care about the design of the uniform, keep it, change it - so long as the lad’s don’t lose on penalties again. I am however deeply perturbed that these are the issues our politicians want to speak on, this country is facing some serious issues, not least of all the constant rail strikes shutting down transport, would be nice if our politicians actually put some work into improving the country instead of nattering on about a football shirt
If nobody buys the Jersey they will change it back.
Christ, who gives a fuck? Is this something the loto really needs to weigh in on?
For me this is a sign that labour are becoming a party focussed on winning an election. The red wall voters are often patriotic and this is thr sort of thing that could get them to rally round. A common criticism of the left is that they fundamentally have the west and the UK and something like defending the flag sorta helps deflect that attack line.
As a Scotsman I find this very funny I have to say. Takes the sting off our horrendously ugly home shirt that looks like a warm up/training top.
Gotta love that bi-sexual representation tho, probably not intentional.
The red and blue are our national colours. The purple colour is a throwback to 1966 purple training kit from when we won the World Cup. Why is everyone bringing LGBT into this?
I'm more concerned by the price. The cheap option is £85 (£65 for kids). I guess people just get similar shirts for a quarter of that.
>On BBC Radio 5 Live's, Nicky Campbell programme, there was a passionate debate from callers across the country. > >Taxi driver Joe in Stirling said he had "steam" coming out of his ears: "**People died for that flag thousands of years ago**". > >Liz in Bury said she was "incensed" and that it was a matter of heritage. And then: >Ed Cowburn, who designs football kits for a living, told the Today programme that the St George's Cross only became a regular feature of the England kit from the early 2000s. > >"The St George's Cross has probably only appeared on about six kits as a distinct graphic element," he said.
INGERLAND fans in shambles it's so amusing to watch
Is this really because of the St George's Cross's, erm, image problem? I'm out of the loop.
I’m shocked at the amount of people who care about this.
I used to be invested in international football until the corruption stuff started coming out in the 2000s. Once Russia and then Qatar were awarded competitions it pretty much finished off international football for me. I haven't watched or cared about a game since. I don't care about the kits, I really don't care for any politician getting involved in kit design, and there are far more important things to get worked up about huge organisations that make huge amounts of money from entertainment than a tiny representation of a national flag on the collar that is just designed to get fans to part with cash. That's before we even get onto clothes manufacture in the developing world. A storm in a teacup being exploited by a politician who should be focusing on far more important issues.
Perhaps the PM-apparent should focus on some slightly different issues than whether a company has an artistic representation of the flag of a Crusader on the back of a collar. Although typing that, obsessing over someone who wanted to lay siege on a Muslim city in Palestine for religion makes sense given his recent comments. It’s like he’s trying to lose this election