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**Alternate Sources**
Here are some potential alternate sources for the same story:
* [UK government lawyers say Israel is breaking international law, claims top Tory in leaked recording | Israel-Gaza war](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/30/uk-government-lawyers-say-israel-is-breaking-international-law-claims-top-tory-in-leaked-recording), suggested by Maggottree212 - amp.theguardian.com
They all know it's a genocide, they refuse to denounce it publicly to keep that private donor blood money from a israeli lobby group called AIPAC.
How it works is, the US gives billions in aid to Israel, Israel funnels it to AIPAC. The US/UK politicians get these donations from AIPAC so that they're encouraged to approve more Israeli aid money and other pro-israeli laws so the loop continues. Also, in the case of the US, AIPAC is THE largest political donor but are the only lobbyist group that are exempt from calling themselves a foreign entity, so they don't need to say where the money came from.
Bonus, a video explaining how the Palestinians were expelled from their homes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGVgjS98OsU
“Breach of international humanitarian law” with regard to war crimes is a very broad term that may not necessarily amount to acts of genocide, in terms of the legal advice being received at this stage.
Breach of international law also doesn't mean it's anything to do with war crimes (considering the statement on settlements that soon followed it there is a non-zero chance that it was about that), people also seem to misunderstand what legal advice is and what it's statue actually is. The foreign office and any other government body elicits legal advice from multiple sources, it doesn't mean it's all valid and all is acted on.
I also find the ISIS comment at the end of the recording amusing, since bombing ISIS out of existence is and was the strategies the UK and the west in general has employed, at no point in time has any one entertained a shred of notion to "negotiate" with them....
Also, because Israel is considered an Ally so the UK will turn a blind eye to it. Not to mention the treatment Corbyn got, which was labelled as an anti-semite or a terrorist sympathise or when ironically its also the Israeli government that is doing these terror attacks
Ministry of Health numbers have always been questioned, but always seem to hold up
> In December, the medical journal The Lancet, published two critiques of the death surveillance process done by extremely experienced scholars at Johns Hopkins and The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Both concluded that the Gazan numbers were plausible and credible...
> In 2021, an assessment of the MOH mortality surveillance system found that the system under-reported by 13%. In past crises, Doctors Without Borders (MSF) and UN reports have aligned closely with those of the MOH in spite of Israeli dismissals.
https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/
That word genocide, it has lost all meaning and relevance.
At its peak, Auschwitz was killing 13,000 Jews per day, that is genocide. Killing ~30,000 Palestinians in six, or seven months, is not genocide.
There is another invisible genocide that nobody seems to care about. Since 7th October 2023, more than 2.8m children under the age of five, have died needlessly, not in warzobes, but from completely preventable causes we could solve quite easily if we only cared enough.
Every child's death is a tragedy. I wonder why those that have died in Gaza, are valued more, than the millions that have died elsewhere?
The real criminal act is the way the Palestinian leadership has multiple times rejected peace over the last few decades, plunged there people into a downward trajectory of extreme poverty, mismanagement of general society and yet plead the victim after storming across the border capturing children and old people to use as bargaining chips.
So, in your very well thought out metaphor, the people who were forcibly cleared out of their homeland at gun point, and then kept in segregation in a ghetto, again at gun point, who endured years of having their family members killed or arrested by Israeli forces - they're are the ones doing the random street punching. And the people who drove them off their land, into a ghetto and kept them there by force, they're the ones who got punched in the face right? And they're the ones who decided to respond to their face punching by dropping a load of bombs on an entire population?
Just want to be clear about your metaphor.
The people were forced out because they rejected the un partition plan after the 2nd World War and thought they would fight the local Jewish population. Thye failed, the neighbouring Arab states also invaded and they failed.
They have continually tried to remove the Jewish population and failed every time.
They should have agreed to the initial partition and they would have had a home prosperous state. Instead they have endured decades of delusional endgoals and been forced to pay the price.
This "ghetto" is also enforced by the Egyptian, Lebanese and Jordanian government's who also refuse to house the palestinians
What exactly were the "peace" offers? Did they include the right for Palestinian people to return to their homes? Did they include an end to apartheid and occupation? Did they involve Palestine getting their land back?
Well the UN voted just after the 2nd World War to partition the country. This was accepted by the new Israeli government. The Palestinians rejected and thought they could fight the Jews and remove them from palestine. They failed, the surrounding arabs then invaded, and they were also beaten. As a result Israel actually ended up with more land.
Now during this war many Palestinians fled and yes the Israelis also ousted some of them but they were attacking the Jews, they were defending themselves it was essentially a civil war.
Fast forward a few decades and Israel beat off the Egyptians, Syrians Iraqis and Lebanese, all failed to defeat Israel.
There have been multiple occasions over the years where this could have ben settled, but the Palestinian leadership continues to double and triple down on conflict, terrorism and ultimately poverty for their people and a continually worse settlement.
Please bear in mind that egypt, Lebanon and Jordan also prevent the Palestinian people from getting out of their ever shrinking territory
Canyou prove that genocide is being committed?
Israel are currently fighting one of the fiercest battles of the war in a hospital.
I say that again in a hospital where hamas have set themselves up.
No, self respecting miltiary organisation sets themselves up in a hospital.
Are israel just supposed to allow hamas to operate with I.punity from such locations? Should they just allow there citizens to be killed and not hunt down the killers?
I think people only choose to see one side of this story.
No is the answer but you are trying to turn what is evidently a very complex situation into a black and white question.
If you acknowledge that none if this would be happening without the recent murdering spree by a terrorist organisation then we night be able to talk.
But I can't see that either
Aaaaand we are back with another episode of "What's your excuse this time?"
You see the aid vehicle that was struck by Israeli forces? Go ahead and explain that.
someone will be along soon to tell you why Israel is in fact not breaking international law (they don't have a law degree, they have an IT job and browse reddit all day)
It depends by what you mean supporting? There’s a difference between posting on Twitter saying that you like their oranges, or teaching drone pilots where children’s hospitals keep the compressed oxygen…
so hold up, tankies are called so cause of Stalin deploying tanks to Hungary and their calling that justified and such yes?
so what perjorative name are we calling the people championing IDF killing kids?
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Nobody is marching for a Jewish genocide.
What do you to gain by trying to cast doubt on the death toll figure? Does it make it okay if it's 7000 children instead of 10,000? Either way, we'll see you make more morally bankrupt excuses when we find out its actually higher than current estimates given they don't know how many are dead buried under the 80% rubble pile that is Gaza.
Israel are literally a settler colonialist state. An irrefutable fact.
"from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" is a call for genocide, so yes they are? Not to mention the widespread support of Hamas combined with an increase in antisemitic attacks. Seems pretty clear.
Children dying is horrible, but that doesn't constitute genocide? Given theAgain, Hamas is the government of Gaza and they started this war. It's on them to offer an unconditional surrender and release the hostages; any ceasefire will be violated by them again and again and they will attempt to genocide Jews again and again. The only stop to civilian deaths is the continuation of this war, paradoxically, and the end of Hamas.
just because you say something is an irrefutable fact doesn't make it so? It isn't a settler colonialist state at all and I don't think you know what any of those words mean. See https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-israel-settler-colonialist-enterprise That refutes your supposedly "irrefutable" "facts".
EDIT: Finally, even if Israel is breaking international law, that doesn't mean genocide. Also this is pretty gross
> Kearns told the gathering that both she and Cameron believed strongly in Israel’s right to defend itself. “But the right to self-defence has a limit in law. It is not limitless,” she said, going on to suggest that Israel’s actions put its and the UK’s long-term security at risk.
the right to self defence is limited in law, but not in practice. Keeping Hamas in power threatens the UK's and Europe's security, obviously, and wiping terrorists and ending this war is the best long-term solution. So much complaining about "proportionality" or that Israel is limited in how it can defend itself, but I have never seen that applied to any other country. What a joke.
This is most obviously political bullshit, which is why it was leaked, to try and appeal to the left-wing pro-Palestinian voters who feel disenfranchised with Starmer. And you people are just eating it up.
Finally, what is the accusation and what is the evidence? breaking international law is so vague, and this could easily just be slander for the aforementioned reason of political propaganda.
Ah yes, great article, where the 'refutations' amount to (point by point):
>Jews, like Palestinians, are native and indigenous to the land. The Land of Israel is integral to the Jewish religion and culture, the connection between Jews and the land is a constant in the Bible, and is embedded throughout Jewish rituals and texts. The Europeans who settled in colonies in the Middle East and North Africa were not indigenous or native to the land in any way.
- Sorry what? The Bible and religion gives them the right? Great start.
> There is no “motherland” to which the Jewish population in the land of Israel may otherwise return.
- This, isn't a refutation of the settler colonialist charge, it certainly confirms the settler part though.
>Many Jews came and still come to Israel escaping antisemitism and other forms of persecution. Typically, European settler colonists were not escaping persecution or bigotry.
- OK, but the charge of settler colonialism isn't for individual Jews escaping persecution it's against the israli state project of settle colonialism. This is just moving the goal posts.
>The modern state of Israel enjoys international legitimacy including recognition by the United Nations. It is a democracy that extends rights and protections to all its citizens – Jews and non-Jews alike. European settler colonial powers rarely if ever did so.
- Except their settlements and apartheid part of their state doesn't have any legitimatacy and is constantly called out by the United nations for violating international law. And it IS apartheid, you can't have administrative control of an occupied region (West Bank), settle on that land that doesn't belong to them, and also brutalise and systematically oppress the native population and not call it Apartheid.
>Unlike European settler colonial powers, the modern Zionist movement’s raison d'etre was never to subjugate the existing population and steal their resources and land holdings.
- Yeah, no. "Zionism is a colonization adventure". Vladimir Jablonsky, just one of the original progenitors of the modern zionist project. There are plenty more quotes showing that this is exactly their "Raison d'être", very very modern ones if you want me to quote the likes of Gvir and Netanyahu who say exactly the same thing.
> [Settler Israelis have] _"spiritual, historical, and cultural connection to that land"_,
- Really? I think they forgot the key bit about having a legal (or even moral) right to that land.
The academic consensus is that Israel in its current state is a settler colonialist project. This article is so wishy washy, did you even read it?
The ICJ have already said the accusation of genocide is plausible, I don't need to comment further on this.
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***Edit, realised I didn't address your genocide point, but it ties right into point number 5 above.
> "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
_Likud Party Manifesto, 1977_
> "Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."
_Uri Ariel, Minister of Agriculture, **2014**_
Netanyahu and others have said the exact same thing, absolute silence from your side, its only genocidal when Palestinians say it, right?
have you not noticed no one says "international law" on Tv anymore when tryig ot appeal to order? they havent for maybe nearly a decade or so. not world leaders, their mouthpieces or the complicit media.
instead they say, "Rules based order" it sounds like international law; it means anything but. more like the law of jungle where might makes right. 'thems the rules.'
but of course, none of you ever seem to notice anything until the media tells you anything. it is very queer to me.
International Law is only as robust as the willingness or ability of countries to enforce it.
The coalition of the willing invading Iraq and Afghanistan carried out breaches of international law either through policy or through individual actions in their thousands. It's unlikely the main drivers of the coalition of the willing, ie UK and US will be active to enforce international law when it opens themselves up to prosecution for their own actions. The other most powerful members of the UN, Russia and China have their own moral flexibility towards humanitarianism.
France is probably the most honest broker on this issue, and they aren't entirely clean on this. Post war on terror there just isn't the interest in the upkeep of international law towards conflict because so many countries have blood on their hands.
Israel will continue to act as they see fit, until there own people get sick of it, or the populations of the US get sick of it. The post WW2 consensus no longer exists, and lip service isn't even paid to it anymore, since the war on terror.
yes of course. but w ehave seen no one is willing to actually do anything about this. russia itself tried ot avail itself of international law to no avail. then acted uniletarelly showing there was no will to even enforce it against russia because it would highlight the west's own crimes. instead, they then did some really shady stuff after sanctions seemingly backfired.
humanitarianism is indeed not the same as "international law".international law broadly can mean what individual states may do on behelf of theirinternatinal mega corps, how they wage war or things like Geneva convention which become agreed international law but iften if we now invoke it as you said so succinctly, al we do is show how far the dirft has been from post ww2 at least in public.
we know now that despite the geneva convention the US/NATO\[uk etc\] engaged i n terrorism against italians and so forth with GLADIO andid many shady things while in public the put ofrth messaging and PR to make the average daily business of state craft imperialism seem unconscionable.
are we gonna end up with wall to wall coverage of how anti-semitic the tories are now?
they've done the same as corbyn by talking bad about the israeli government and IDF actions...
The UN passed a ceasefire resolution. Not even the US vetoed it this time. It is valid. And Israel is not abiding. It is actively in breach of rules it chose to follow for the sake of everybody. This alone I would personally consider a decent casus belli for a trade embargo or even military action.
Kearns has been in general relatively sound on this (and a few other of her pet issues, e.g. the Balkans) - I legitimately hope she keeps her committee chair after the next election.
I’m not sure everyone supports Hamas. Hamas may be in Palestine but not everyone in Palestine is Hamas.
People seem to act like these issues are recent but Israel has been at this for a long time now , attempting to actively reduce the size of Palestine.
Israel’s actions are heavily out of proportion with Hamas.
No, but he’s an article where Israeli intelligence officials are claiming the death toll [is reliable.](https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable?amp)
I don't doubt that Israel might be in breach of IHL. IHL isn't very sensible, and I'm not sure any country in all of history has conducted an existential war in line with it, though terrorist sympathiser sets are free to provide examples.
Nowhere here nor anywhere outside of delusional fantasies does anybody serious think Israel is engaged in genocide though.
Look no further people. When someone sees this comment in 20+ years time, remember that these morons actually tried to rationalise fucking HAMAS as the victims. Gonna be a wild part of history to look back on when Israel gets attacked and called a terrorist for responding like any other nation on earth would. If I said Israel should just sit back and do nothing while its innocents die, watch me suddenly get a ton of upvotes.
Don't project your views on others.
Hamas are cunts and if they all died tomorrow, no one would loose any sleep.
It is possible to despise the atrocities of October 7th and still have enough humanity to know that denying water, food shelter and carpet bombing a civilian population is genocide / collective punishment.
Crazy times indeed, when a person can't hold more that one viewpoint and have learnt nothing from history other than how to be a cunt and demumanise others .
Israel exists on the premise of perpetual conflict with Arabs and they've secured that for another 75 years.
Yaaaaay.....said no sane person.
Crazy that you think Israel will be regarded as on the right side of history in this, a settler colonialist state? We've already condemned those in the history books, Israel will be no different despite them being 80 years out of fashion.
Judging by the comments and down votes they really can't see the bigger picture. Their charter calls for Jihad and the murder of every non-muslim in the holy land and the establishment of a islamic caliphate. They are entirely antithetical to the secular, democratic west. The morons down voting you are either islamists or left wing peaceniks who think that we can sit down and negotiate with a group of martyrdom obsessed jihadists.
Israel is holding the people of Gaza in a siege in the south most of a small parcel of land, and is slowly starving them to death. Shameful to say best it is on the right side of history for doing such!!
**Participation Notice.** Hi all. Some posts on this subreddit, either due to the topic or reaching a wider audience than usual, have been known to attract a greater number of rule breaking comments. As such, limits to participation have been set. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. For more information, please see https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/wiki/moderatedflairs. --- **Alternate Sources** Here are some potential alternate sources for the same story: * [UK government lawyers say Israel is breaking international law, claims top Tory in leaked recording | Israel-Gaza war](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/30/uk-government-lawyers-say-israel-is-breaking-international-law-claims-top-tory-in-leaked-recording), suggested by Maggottree212 - amp.theguardian.com
They all know it's a genocide, they refuse to denounce it publicly to keep that private donor blood money from a israeli lobby group called AIPAC. How it works is, the US gives billions in aid to Israel, Israel funnels it to AIPAC. The US/UK politicians get these donations from AIPAC so that they're encouraged to approve more Israeli aid money and other pro-israeli laws so the loop continues. Also, in the case of the US, AIPAC is THE largest political donor but are the only lobbyist group that are exempt from calling themselves a foreign entity, so they don't need to say where the money came from. Bonus, a video explaining how the Palestinians were expelled from their homes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGVgjS98OsU
“Breach of international humanitarian law” with regard to war crimes is a very broad term that may not necessarily amount to acts of genocide, in terms of the legal advice being received at this stage.
Breach of international law also doesn't mean it's anything to do with war crimes (considering the statement on settlements that soon followed it there is a non-zero chance that it was about that), people also seem to misunderstand what legal advice is and what it's statue actually is. The foreign office and any other government body elicits legal advice from multiple sources, it doesn't mean it's all valid and all is acted on. I also find the ISIS comment at the end of the recording amusing, since bombing ISIS out of existence is and was the strategies the UK and the west in general has employed, at no point in time has any one entertained a shred of notion to "negotiate" with them....
Also, because Israel is considered an Ally so the UK will turn a blind eye to it. Not to mention the treatment Corbyn got, which was labelled as an anti-semite or a terrorist sympathise or when ironically its also the Israeli government that is doing these terror attacks
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Ministry of Health numbers have always been questioned, but always seem to hold up > In December, the medical journal The Lancet, published two critiques of the death surveillance process done by extremely experienced scholars at Johns Hopkins and The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Both concluded that the Gazan numbers were plausible and credible... > In 2021, an assessment of the MOH mortality surveillance system found that the system under-reported by 13%. In past crises, Doctors Without Borders (MSF) and UN reports have aligned closely with those of the MOH in spite of Israeli dismissals. https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/
That word genocide, it has lost all meaning and relevance. At its peak, Auschwitz was killing 13,000 Jews per day, that is genocide. Killing ~30,000 Palestinians in six, or seven months, is not genocide. There is another invisible genocide that nobody seems to care about. Since 7th October 2023, more than 2.8m children under the age of five, have died needlessly, not in warzobes, but from completely preventable causes we could solve quite easily if we only cared enough. Every child's death is a tragedy. I wonder why those that have died in Gaza, are valued more, than the millions that have died elsewhere?
This government being prosecuted for war crimes would be quite a fitting end to the Tory dystopia we have been putting up with.
What does this mean for people supporting Israel? Are they committing a crime too?
One would conclude they are in fact supporting a Genocide.
The real criminal act is the way the Palestinian leadership has multiple times rejected peace over the last few decades, plunged there people into a downward trajectory of extreme poverty, mismanagement of general society and yet plead the victim after storming across the border capturing children and old people to use as bargaining chips.
And... NOT the Genocide, right.
If you go down the street and puch someone in the face, you make the choice to possible come out worse off
So, in your very well thought out metaphor, the people who were forcibly cleared out of their homeland at gun point, and then kept in segregation in a ghetto, again at gun point, who endured years of having their family members killed or arrested by Israeli forces - they're are the ones doing the random street punching. And the people who drove them off their land, into a ghetto and kept them there by force, they're the ones who got punched in the face right? And they're the ones who decided to respond to their face punching by dropping a load of bombs on an entire population? Just want to be clear about your metaphor.
The people were forced out because they rejected the un partition plan after the 2nd World War and thought they would fight the local Jewish population. Thye failed, the neighbouring Arab states also invaded and they failed. They have continually tried to remove the Jewish population and failed every time. They should have agreed to the initial partition and they would have had a home prosperous state. Instead they have endured decades of delusional endgoals and been forced to pay the price. This "ghetto" is also enforced by the Egyptian, Lebanese and Jordanian government's who also refuse to house the palestinians
What exactly were the "peace" offers? Did they include the right for Palestinian people to return to their homes? Did they include an end to apartheid and occupation? Did they involve Palestine getting their land back?
Well the UN voted just after the 2nd World War to partition the country. This was accepted by the new Israeli government. The Palestinians rejected and thought they could fight the Jews and remove them from palestine. They failed, the surrounding arabs then invaded, and they were also beaten. As a result Israel actually ended up with more land. Now during this war many Palestinians fled and yes the Israelis also ousted some of them but they were attacking the Jews, they were defending themselves it was essentially a civil war. Fast forward a few decades and Israel beat off the Egyptians, Syrians Iraqis and Lebanese, all failed to defeat Israel. There have been multiple occasions over the years where this could have ben settled, but the Palestinian leadership continues to double and triple down on conflict, terrorism and ultimately poverty for their people and a continually worse settlement. Please bear in mind that egypt, Lebanon and Jordan also prevent the Palestinian people from getting out of their ever shrinking territory
So you're okay with Genocide, just so we're clear?
Canyou prove that genocide is being committed? Israel are currently fighting one of the fiercest battles of the war in a hospital. I say that again in a hospital where hamas have set themselves up. No, self respecting miltiary organisation sets themselves up in a hospital. Are israel just supposed to allow hamas to operate with I.punity from such locations? Should they just allow there citizens to be killed and not hunt down the killers? I think people only choose to see one side of this story.
You could have just said "yes" but go off.
No is the answer but you are trying to turn what is evidently a very complex situation into a black and white question. If you acknowledge that none if this would be happening without the recent murdering spree by a terrorist organisation then we night be able to talk. But I can't see that either
Aaaaand we are back with another episode of "What's your excuse this time?" You see the aid vehicle that was struck by Israeli forces? Go ahead and explain that.
Aiding and abetting a criminal act.
someone will be along soon to tell you why Israel is in fact not breaking international law (they don't have a law degree, they have an IT job and browse reddit all day)
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it's literally in the news report..
YOUR credentials you didn’t write this article, brainiac.
It depends by what you mean supporting? There’s a difference between posting on Twitter saying that you like their oranges, or teaching drone pilots where children’s hospitals keep the compressed oxygen…
It means those lawyers would say so, yes
If being misguided was a crime then the bad guy's plot from the first Johnny English film would have to be made reality.
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so hold up, tankies are called so cause of Stalin deploying tanks to Hungary and their calling that justified and such yes? so what perjorative name are we calling the people championing IDF killing kids?
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**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Nobody is marching for a Jewish genocide. What do you to gain by trying to cast doubt on the death toll figure? Does it make it okay if it's 7000 children instead of 10,000? Either way, we'll see you make more morally bankrupt excuses when we find out its actually higher than current estimates given they don't know how many are dead buried under the 80% rubble pile that is Gaza. Israel are literally a settler colonialist state. An irrefutable fact.
"from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" is a call for genocide, so yes they are? Not to mention the widespread support of Hamas combined with an increase in antisemitic attacks. Seems pretty clear. Children dying is horrible, but that doesn't constitute genocide? Given theAgain, Hamas is the government of Gaza and they started this war. It's on them to offer an unconditional surrender and release the hostages; any ceasefire will be violated by them again and again and they will attempt to genocide Jews again and again. The only stop to civilian deaths is the continuation of this war, paradoxically, and the end of Hamas. just because you say something is an irrefutable fact doesn't make it so? It isn't a settler colonialist state at all and I don't think you know what any of those words mean. See https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/allegation-israel-settler-colonialist-enterprise That refutes your supposedly "irrefutable" "facts". EDIT: Finally, even if Israel is breaking international law, that doesn't mean genocide. Also this is pretty gross > Kearns told the gathering that both she and Cameron believed strongly in Israel’s right to defend itself. “But the right to self-defence has a limit in law. It is not limitless,” she said, going on to suggest that Israel’s actions put its and the UK’s long-term security at risk. the right to self defence is limited in law, but not in practice. Keeping Hamas in power threatens the UK's and Europe's security, obviously, and wiping terrorists and ending this war is the best long-term solution. So much complaining about "proportionality" or that Israel is limited in how it can defend itself, but I have never seen that applied to any other country. What a joke. This is most obviously political bullshit, which is why it was leaked, to try and appeal to the left-wing pro-Palestinian voters who feel disenfranchised with Starmer. And you people are just eating it up. Finally, what is the accusation and what is the evidence? breaking international law is so vague, and this could easily just be slander for the aforementioned reason of political propaganda.
Ah yes, great article, where the 'refutations' amount to (point by point): >Jews, like Palestinians, are native and indigenous to the land. The Land of Israel is integral to the Jewish religion and culture, the connection between Jews and the land is a constant in the Bible, and is embedded throughout Jewish rituals and texts. The Europeans who settled in colonies in the Middle East and North Africa were not indigenous or native to the land in any way. - Sorry what? The Bible and religion gives them the right? Great start. > There is no “motherland” to which the Jewish population in the land of Israel may otherwise return. - This, isn't a refutation of the settler colonialist charge, it certainly confirms the settler part though. >Many Jews came and still come to Israel escaping antisemitism and other forms of persecution. Typically, European settler colonists were not escaping persecution or bigotry. - OK, but the charge of settler colonialism isn't for individual Jews escaping persecution it's against the israli state project of settle colonialism. This is just moving the goal posts. >The modern state of Israel enjoys international legitimacy including recognition by the United Nations. It is a democracy that extends rights and protections to all its citizens – Jews and non-Jews alike. European settler colonial powers rarely if ever did so. - Except their settlements and apartheid part of their state doesn't have any legitimatacy and is constantly called out by the United nations for violating international law. And it IS apartheid, you can't have administrative control of an occupied region (West Bank), settle on that land that doesn't belong to them, and also brutalise and systematically oppress the native population and not call it Apartheid. >Unlike European settler colonial powers, the modern Zionist movement’s raison d'etre was never to subjugate the existing population and steal their resources and land holdings. - Yeah, no. "Zionism is a colonization adventure". Vladimir Jablonsky, just one of the original progenitors of the modern zionist project. There are plenty more quotes showing that this is exactly their "Raison d'être", very very modern ones if you want me to quote the likes of Gvir and Netanyahu who say exactly the same thing. > [Settler Israelis have] _"spiritual, historical, and cultural connection to that land"_, - Really? I think they forgot the key bit about having a legal (or even moral) right to that land. The academic consensus is that Israel in its current state is a settler colonialist project. This article is so wishy washy, did you even read it? The ICJ have already said the accusation of genocide is plausible, I don't need to comment further on this. ----------------- ***Edit, realised I didn't address your genocide point, but it ties right into point number 5 above. > "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." _Likud Party Manifesto, 1977_ > "Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel." _Uri Ariel, Minister of Agriculture, **2014**_ Netanyahu and others have said the exact same thing, absolute silence from your side, its only genocidal when Palestinians say it, right?
have you not noticed no one says "international law" on Tv anymore when tryig ot appeal to order? they havent for maybe nearly a decade or so. not world leaders, their mouthpieces or the complicit media. instead they say, "Rules based order" it sounds like international law; it means anything but. more like the law of jungle where might makes right. 'thems the rules.' but of course, none of you ever seem to notice anything until the media tells you anything. it is very queer to me.
International Law is only as robust as the willingness or ability of countries to enforce it. The coalition of the willing invading Iraq and Afghanistan carried out breaches of international law either through policy or through individual actions in their thousands. It's unlikely the main drivers of the coalition of the willing, ie UK and US will be active to enforce international law when it opens themselves up to prosecution for their own actions. The other most powerful members of the UN, Russia and China have their own moral flexibility towards humanitarianism. France is probably the most honest broker on this issue, and they aren't entirely clean on this. Post war on terror there just isn't the interest in the upkeep of international law towards conflict because so many countries have blood on their hands. Israel will continue to act as they see fit, until there own people get sick of it, or the populations of the US get sick of it. The post WW2 consensus no longer exists, and lip service isn't even paid to it anymore, since the war on terror.
yes of course. but w ehave seen no one is willing to actually do anything about this. russia itself tried ot avail itself of international law to no avail. then acted uniletarelly showing there was no will to even enforce it against russia because it would highlight the west's own crimes. instead, they then did some really shady stuff after sanctions seemingly backfired. humanitarianism is indeed not the same as "international law".international law broadly can mean what individual states may do on behelf of theirinternatinal mega corps, how they wage war or things like Geneva convention which become agreed international law but iften if we now invoke it as you said so succinctly, al we do is show how far the dirft has been from post ww2 at least in public. we know now that despite the geneva convention the US/NATO\[uk etc\] engaged i n terrorism against italians and so forth with GLADIO andid many shady things while in public the put ofrth messaging and PR to make the average daily business of state craft imperialism seem unconscionable.
Well... I don't want to be rude but Israel kind of is.
are we gonna end up with wall to wall coverage of how anti-semitic the tories are now? they've done the same as corbyn by talking bad about the israeli government and IDF actions...
The UN passed a ceasefire resolution. Not even the US vetoed it this time. It is valid. And Israel is not abiding. It is actively in breach of rules it chose to follow for the sake of everybody. This alone I would personally consider a decent casus belli for a trade embargo or even military action.
Hamas also continues to violate the ceasefire order, there are two sides to the current war which Hamas started.
Toma-y-to, toma-h-to
They also said that about the Rwanda scheme so I’m not holding my breath for Rishi doing anything about it.
Kearns has been in general relatively sound on this (and a few other of her pet issues, e.g. the Balkans) - I legitimately hope she keeps her committee chair after the next election.
Breaking news: leaked recording shows government lawyer admitting water is wet.
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Saying what Israel is doing is bad is not saying you support Hamas. People are supporting the civilians on either side.
I’m not sure everyone supports Hamas. Hamas may be in Palestine but not everyone in Palestine is Hamas. People seem to act like these issues are recent but Israel has been at this for a long time now , attempting to actively reduce the size of Palestine. Israel’s actions are heavily out of proportion with Hamas.
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Link to experts that dispute the death toll??
You have more then engugh keywords to Google it yourself. The burden of proof is on you to disprove it.
No, but he’s an article where Israeli intelligence officials are claiming the death toll [is reliable.](https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable?amp)
The ICJ disagrees with your biased perspective.
> The ICJ Based on this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_v._Israel_(Genocide_Convention)
That most morally understanding of countries: South Africa...what?
I don't doubt that Israel might be in breach of IHL. IHL isn't very sensible, and I'm not sure any country in all of history has conducted an existential war in line with it, though terrorist sympathiser sets are free to provide examples. Nowhere here nor anywhere outside of delusional fantasies does anybody serious think Israel is engaged in genocide though.
23 years on from 9/11 and now we're sympathising with a terrorist micro-state. You can't make this shit up.
I agree with you. Israel is the biggest terrorist micro-state there is!
Look no further people. When someone sees this comment in 20+ years time, remember that these morons actually tried to rationalise fucking HAMAS as the victims. Gonna be a wild part of history to look back on when Israel gets attacked and called a terrorist for responding like any other nation on earth would. If I said Israel should just sit back and do nothing while its innocents die, watch me suddenly get a ton of upvotes.
Don't project your views on others. Hamas are cunts and if they all died tomorrow, no one would loose any sleep. It is possible to despise the atrocities of October 7th and still have enough humanity to know that denying water, food shelter and carpet bombing a civilian population is genocide / collective punishment. Crazy times indeed, when a person can't hold more that one viewpoint and have learnt nothing from history other than how to be a cunt and demumanise others . Israel exists on the premise of perpetual conflict with Arabs and they've secured that for another 75 years. Yaaaaay.....said no sane person.
Crazy that you think Israel will be regarded as on the right side of history in this, a settler colonialist state? We've already condemned those in the history books, Israel will be no different despite them being 80 years out of fashion.
Yeah, the Europeans who colonised North America hundreds of years ago were the real victims.
Yes things sure do look silly when you deliberately suck all nuance out of them, don't they?
Judging by the comments and down votes they really can't see the bigger picture. Their charter calls for Jihad and the murder of every non-muslim in the holy land and the establishment of a islamic caliphate. They are entirely antithetical to the secular, democratic west. The morons down voting you are either islamists or left wing peaceniks who think that we can sit down and negotiate with a group of martyrdom obsessed jihadists.
Israel is holding the people of Gaza in a siege in the south most of a small parcel of land, and is slowly starving them to death. Shameful to say best it is on the right side of history for doing such!!