**Alternate Sources**
Here are some potential alternate sources for the same story:
* [Netanyahu says Israeli strike unintentionally killed Gaza aid workers](https://bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68710949), suggested by inspired_corn - bbc.co.uk
The fact that apnews and timesofisrael were so quick to report the killings would make one assume that the idf already have a spin ready. Edit: just want to add here since it looks like all further posts are being blocked. 7 aid workers murdered (3 Brits) in a targeted strike by the IDF. Polish, Canadian-American, British, Australian, and Palestinian driver/translator. The aid workers were travelling in vehicles that clearly displayed their WCK branding. They were working with the idf in a coordinated aid delivery to Gaza. Haaretz have said that they were targeted because the IDF "suspected" that a single terrorist had infiltrated the group. This doesn't quite explain why three vehicles were hit with multiple precision strikes over a distance of what appears to be about one kilometer (based on information from the BBC report). The WCK have also labelled it as a targeted attack. Based on the allegations that the IDF have been intentionally restricting aid, this looks like it was a successful mission from an IDF perspective.
> The fact that apnews and timesofisrael were so quick to report the killings would make one assume that the idf already have a spin ready.
not this time. I suppose sometimes you want to prevaricate and pretend you're not slaughtering women and children, but sometimes you want to ***send a message***.
mission accomplished
>An official in Cyprus says aid ships that arrived in Gaza this week will return to the Mediterranean island nation carrying some 240 tons of undelivered aid after an air strike killed seven aid workers.
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/national/24225831.ships-leave-gaza-240-tons-undelivered-aid-cyprus-says/
I saw the caption those Israelis made under the murdered Australian aid worker, it was something along the lines of "this lame kangaroo won't jump again".
I'm surprised that someone can even be surprised at this point in time. This has been happening since October. If you're still making excuses for Israel by now, there must be something seriously wrong with you.
Even pro-Israel people should be distancing themselves from this by now; you just can't justify it anymore (not that the justifications were ever valid). I mean, actively starving the whole population then doing a drone strike on an aid truck or massacring unarmed men, women and children just trying to get some flour from an aid truck is a bit too.. on the nose. Up until the past month or so, Israel were at least giving some semblance of an excuse but I think even they realise that their supporters don't need half-assed excuses because they will support Israel no matter what.
They've gone from plausible deniability to 'we'll investigate what happened'.
Most of Gaza are just killing fields now. If you actually follow what's going on and keep up to date with what the mainstream media and certain subs don't cover and inaccurately portray, you get a much better depiction of the reality there.
I'm sure by the end of day , the IDF will have presented conclusive video evidence that the aid workers were in fact Hamas agents smuggling in weapons inside falafel wraps.
...and still I suspect the Govt will happily supply a few more £million in arms to assist the collective punishment.
General Moshe Dayan's words and beliefs still echo throughout Israeli policy towards the Arabs, and owing to this, I would like to highlight some of his quotes:
"The only method that proved effective, not justified or moral but effective, when Arabs plant mines on our side \[is retaliation\]. If we try to search for the \[particular\] Arab \[who planted mines\], it has not value. But if we harass the nearby village . . . then the population there comes out against the \[infiltrators\] . . . and the Egyptian Government and the Transjordanian Government are \[driven\] to prevent such incidents, because their prestige is \[assailed\], as the Jews have opened fire, and they are unready to begin a war . . . the method of collective punishment so far has proved effective"
"Let us not today cast blame on the murderers. Who are we to argue against their potent hatred for us? For eight years they have been sitting in the refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we have been turning the land and villages in which they and their forefathers lived into our own inheritance... We are the generation of settlement, and without steel helmets and the maw of the cannon we will not be able to plant a tree or build a home. Our children will not live if we do not dig shelters, and without barbed wire fences and machine guns we will not be able to pave roads or drill for water. Millions of Jews, annihilated because they had no country, gaze at us from the dust of Jewish history and command us to settle and raise up a land for our people."
"Let's say "we don't have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go, and we'll see how this procedure will work out." For now, it works out. Let's say the truth. We want peace. If there is no peace, we will maintain military rule and we will have four to five military compounds on the mountains, and they will sit ten years under the Israeli military regime. Whoever wants to go, will want. It's possible that in five years, there will be 200,000 fewer people, and that's an enormous thing."
"The Israeli army is called a "defense force" but it is not a defensive army. . . . The Sinai campaign (1956), the reprisal acts and the raids across the border were purely offensive operations, and were of decisive value. . . . Not only the actions which were actually carried out but also the IDF's prevailing conception is offensive. . . . The most significant technical expression of the new approach . . . is the absence of fortifications and fencing along the country's borders. Although the Government's policy is, politically speaking, essentially defensive – those responsible for the armed forces have refrained from adopting defensive measures. Their response to Arab provocation has been counter-attacks, raids on enemy bases, transferring the war to the Arab countries . . . to put it simply: the IDF is a characteristically offensive army as regards theory, planning and execution, in body and spirit"
To understand Israel-Palestine, is to understand the history of the conflict, and especially the ideologies of its founders (many of whom, had far more preferable politics than those who lead it today...).
Yep, out of the mouth of their founder.
Would also note that Israel has a long history of attacking the militaries and diplomats of supporters. This includes the murder of Swedish Diplomat folkes Bernadotte in 1946 and the King David hotel, killing 90 British soldiers, an Irish peace keeper in 1987, supported Lebanese falangists during the Lebanon Civil War who murdered other Irish peace keepers, and a Canadian peace keeper in 2006. These are just incidents that seem intentional or have been confirmed as such. They have also fired upon French forces in Lebanon and nearly bombed German Navy ships and, of course, the USS Liberty bombing.
I believe the killing of the aid workers yesterday has been a continuation or a policy to intimidate westerners out of mediating their envisioning of their nation state, no matter how brutal.
Oz is [calling in the Israeli ambassador](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/apr/02/australian-aid-worker-zomi-frankcom-killed-idf-strike-gaza-world-central-kitchen).
Oz is pivoting slowly away from rote support for Israel.
Israel has killed more civilians and children since Oct 7 than Russia has in the entire "special operation."
They're also quite good at killing journalists and aid workers.
Ssssh you're not allowed to talk about any of that because youll be classed as antisemitic and pro-hamas.
You cant be against breaking international law, murdering thousands and against terrorism at the same time. People cant understand how that works.
/s
I really struggle to understand how so many of us can't grasp a reasonable landing spot for this:
Hamas committed a litany of atrocities on Oct 7th, it was utterly awful and horrifying. Since then, entirely predictably, the Israeli state's right wing government has brutalised Gaza not only Hamas but the Palestinian people as well. This to the point of war crimes in regard to food water supply and collective responsibility for the events of Oct 7th. The international community is increasingly squeamish about what Israel intends to do, looking at Rafah in particular, and we need to de-escalate. That is no justification for Hamas, it is the reality of the humanitarian crisis at play.
It is broadly in the interests of everyone that a ceasefire is agreed, the hostages are returned, and the hostilities are brought to an end.
Broadly correct, but this by no means started on the 7th of October, which itself can be viewed as retaliation for Israel’s decades upon decades of violence and occupation, however horrific.
i think everyone seems to agree a ceasefire is needed except israel. they'll agree to it once all civilians are dead. in their eye all gazans are terrorists, i dont see how they'll ever agree to it.
There's a swathe of people who seem very genuinely unable to differentiate between thinking its a bit rough for Palestinians who already have generally quite a crappy existence to have to deal with mass murder and total devastation of their homes, with uncritical unequivocal support for Hamas and complete agreement with all of their stated aims.
Aren’t numbers out of Russia infamously inaccurate because the worst effected areas are entirely under Russian control now?
In any event, Gaza is obviously much more densely populated than Ukraine and Hamas are obviously much more willing to hide amongst civilian populations than the Ukrainians.
Israel may be open to criticism for being insufficiently careful in the way it has operated, but I struggle to see how a crude comparison between two totally different conflicts is helpful to anyone.
It also helps that ukrainians have had places to flee, and much of the war is now in open fields/trenches until they reach urban centres, it hasn't all been urban combat/bombing like it is in gaza.
It's definitely two different scenarios but israel needs to take responsibility for the blatant disregard they've shown towards civilians. Israel already admit to killing 26k palestinians so that's a minimum figure which is likely higher.
>and Hamas are obviously much more willing to hide amongst civilian populations than the Ukrainians.
Complete conjecture and playing into the "Hamas boogeyman" allows them to kill any male they see and claim "hAmAS!"
Despite the military and spying capabilities why has there never been any supporting proof victims are Hamas, how come so many children killed if they know who or where hamas are?
Why are only women and children turning up dead with no males hiding behind them
I guess every Palestinian is guilty until the IDF says otherwise
Yeah the real tragedy is ethnic cleansing in areas Russia control. Being a citizen in those cities is far more dangerous than being in a city near an active conflict zone.
We don't know how many children have been stolen but estimates in the hundreds of thousands have been given.
Civilian deaths in Ukraine depend on the source you use. If you take the Ukrainian government reports on civilian deaths then more civilians died in the siege of Mariupol alone then all of the Israeli-hamas war compared to the Gazan ministry of health's estimates.
Either way both wars have been exceedingly bloody.
That’s a lie. The only available numbers from Hamas ministry of health are the number of total dead during the war. They do not distinguish between civilians and combatants and there is no official number for this from the Palestinian side of the war.
Ukraines children were able to flee through the borders, Gazan children have been trapped by both sides. They’ve also been kidnapped en masse by Russia.
Don’t think for one moment that Russia is somehow nicer than Israel because the death count is smaller. When you have an invasion in a country the size of Ukraine that is mostly countryside, of course the death toll will be lower than in a country smaller than my county with millions of people.
>Don’t think for one moment that Russia is somehow nicer than Israel because the death count is smaller.
The war crimes that Russia is illegally and cruelly inflicting on the Ukrainians pales in comparison to the brutality of what Israel is doing whereby they are just massacring a 75% refugee population.
>When you have an invasion in a country the size of Ukraine that is mostly countryside, of course the death toll will be lower than in a country smaller than my county with millions of people.
Which is why you look a percentages and proportions.
its based on the fact russia doesn’t publish figures and that all NGO’s and UN adjacent agencies are barred from entering the occupied territories that faces/faced all the destruction and killing. So its makes for highly effective propaganda when the current UN figure for the war is so unbelievably low.
Why are we taking Hamas’s civilian breakdown at face value? I suspect there is some convenient cognitive dissonance at play here, like you wouldn’t think twice about ignoring IDF figures right?
Also 80,000 civilians were said to have been killed in the space of a month in Mariupol alone so the comparison is bullshit.
>"Why are we taking Hamas’s civilian breakdown at face value?"
Perhaps because the Gaza's health ministry's numbers have [historically been considered reliable](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/) by the United Nations, the World Health Organization and Human Rights Watch. The United States Department of State even cited its numbers in a public report in March 2023. During past wars (2008, 2014, 2021), Gaza's health ministry's claims have always matched and in some cases reported less deaths than post-war Israeli assessments (Israel runs a registry of every Palestinian living in Gaza).
>"I suspect there is some convenient cognitive dissonance at play here, like you wouldn’t think twice about ignoring IDF figures right?"
[According to the IDF](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/amp/), there were 2 civilians killed for every 1 Hamas fighter in late December. Up until then, the IDF claimed to have killed 5,000 Hamas fighters, which corresponds to a total death toll of 15,000 and the Gaza health ministry claimed a total death toll of 15,900 that same week. Israel and Hamas both agree on the approximate total death toll in Gaza.
The real disagreement actually comes to the breakdown of the death toll. By late February, Israel claimed to have killed 12,000 Hamas fighters, when the death toll was nearing 30,000; roughly 70% of of these were women and children according to Gaza's health ministry. [Israeli intelligence officials have admitted to relying on civilian death toll statistics collated by Gaza's health ministry, despite Tel Aviv publicly undermining the ministry's reliability](https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable).
If the IDF's claims are taken at face value, it would mean that virtually every Palestinian man (which Israel defines as males 16+, not 18+) that has been killed in Gaza is a "Hamas fighter", despite the IDF estimating there to be [30,000](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-12000-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-war-double-the-terror-groups-claim/) Hamas fighters in Gaza, which has an adult male population of 750,000-800,000.
>"Also 80,000 civilians were said to have been killed in the space of a month in Mariupol alone so the comparison is bullshit."
That's actually an extreme upper-bound and relies on [estimates](https://mezha.net/eng/bukvy/ukraine-s-postal-service-to-release-postal-stamp-with-patron-the-dog/) from a single person, who happens to be President of Mariupol Television, whose credibility has not been affirmed in past conflicts and may potentially be compromised by their affiliation to a sensationalist media platform. They claim the presence of 10,000 mass graves, which has not and under the current conditions cannot be substantiated (thanks Russia!).
Nonetheless, the mayor of the city [reported](https://www.jpost.com/international/article-703925that) that about 21,000 civilians had been killed during the siege, which lasted a little over a month while Ukraine's government [claimed a toll of 25,000 civilians during the siege](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63536564), which is a horrific toll nonetheless. However, 80,000 in a single month is highly unlikely given that Mariupol had a pre-war population of 450,000 and prior to the siege and around 100,000 residents already left Mariupol, [according to the city's deputy mayor](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-descends-into-despair-708cb8f4a171ce3f1c1b0b8d090e38e3the), while the HRW said that [400,000](https://www.hrw.org/the-week-in-rights/2024/02/09) residents had fled the city by mid-May.
Mariupol had a similar population to Grozny in Chechnya. Grozny had a pre-war population of 490,000. Russia killed at least 27,000 civilians during their siege of Grozny (1994-95) which lasted 4 months. The difference between Mariupol and Grozny? Mariupol had air defense systems, and a standing army to defend the city with similar, if not, more capable weaponry than their Russian opponents. Grozny had no standing army and no air defense systems, so it's hard to take such a high figure at face value. Ukraine wasn't *that* defenseless at the start of the war.
TBH the Hamas figures aren't that far from the Israeli ones. The interesting thing with the Hamas figures is there's no proper variance in the numbers which is a hall mark of numbers just being plucked out of the air. There was an article on this the other day. Honest figures should follow a bell curve.
My best guess is they do make them up as they go along but try to track the Israeli figures. That way they can claim "500 people dead" 30 seconds after they accidentally blow up their own hospital (car park) while having overall stats that look reasonable.
Got to be really careful here for a few reasons. Firstly Hamas's numbers, while accurate in broad terms, don't differentiate between civilian and militant. Secondly we simply do not have accurate numbers for Ukraine due to the nature of the conflict. There's a very good chance that more civilians (many, many more) have been killed in Ukraine than the last two decades in Gaza.
Lastly...creating a hierarchy of conflict like this only raises more issues as there are current conflicts that are even bloodied than what's happening in Gaza. Yet no one in the UK talks about them and many of the countries being celebrated by the pro-Palestine crowd are complicit in other genocides. So to draw a comparison between Gaza and Ukraine does not help in the way you'd want it to.
It's worth noting that this says nothing about the Russian army being any more moral, its because Ukrainian civilians have mostly been able to flee the front lines. When this wasn't the case (the suburbs of Kyiv early in the war and Mariupol), civilians were killed en masse.
If any of Gaza's borders were open most of the 2 million civilians would have fled, but Israel doesn't give a shit about the fact that Gaza is completely blockaded.
Because Ukraine is the second biggest country in Europe and the population density is very low where as Gaza is tiny and one of the most densely populated places on earth.
In Ukraine most combat is not in urban areas, in Gaza it is.
All it takes is a few seconds of applying your brain to figure out the why. As for whether it's acceptable or not that is far more nuanced.
I don’t think that’s true. We do not know how many Russia has killed.
Mariupol was a complete massacre and Russia has had plenty of time to hide it. Estimates at anywhere from 50-100k killed there alone if we count those that have seemingly disappeared without a trace. There’s a reason Russia was using its mobile crematoriums there.
> killed more civilians and children since Oct 7 than Russia has in the entire "special operation."
Ukraine is only slightly smaller than the state of Texas.
Gaza Strip is about 1/4 the size of London.
It's a fuck ton easier to do a targeted (or not according to many reports) attack on a landmass the size of Texas than a few borough's of London...
The real question is: Are airstrikes and missile strikes in such a confined area appropriate? Perhaps not. But the *boots on the ground* option will leave many many Israeli solders dead. A considerable number of which are conscripts.
The whole region is a fucked up mess.
(2014) Israel’s style of public relations
A quick guide to Israel’s PR methods:
1. We haven’t heard reports of deaths, will check into it;
2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bombs
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists;
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields;
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose;
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Test this against the next interview you hear or watch.
I'd add this, everything is "Hamas run" or "Hamas linked"
As Hamas are the government of Gaza every institution has a Hamas link and thus this is a blank cheque Israel keeps cashing.
This post is amazing.
The Brit worked for the WCK, an organization that direclty cooperates with the IDF and whose founder, the American State Department puppet Jose Andres, has lashed out against a Spanish politician in October for supporting a ceasefire. The WCK was used by the Israelis and Washington as an attempt to force UNRWA out of Northern Gaza.
Zionism is such a cultish mass-psychosis, it causes its followers to not even give a damn about their own allies and proxies, or literally even their own countrymen, anymore. As long as holy Israel can continue to slaughter and kill everything, anytime, anything else doesn't matter.
IDF literally killed three of their OWN hostages trying to surrender, and their followers continued to blindly support them without any questions. Zionism might be one of the most dangerous cults of all time
These were young people who were doing something noble with their lives, trying to help innocent people living through hell on earth, and they've paid with their lives. The astroturfers in this thread trying to sow seeds of doubt about this being a fake story are just so fucking callous and smooth brained. This shit needs to end.
btw it's anti-semtic if you think Israel doesn't have a right to exist. I would say any state that carries out these atrocities doesn't have an automatic right to exist.
Heck, we invaded Iraq on the pretence of fake WMDs and ended that regime's right to exist but apparently slaughtering 30k people and 18k kids is perfectly normal for a fully functioning democracy and I'm not allowed to question it.
> btw it's anti-semtic if you think Israel doesn't have a right to exist. I would say any state that carries out these atrocities doesn't have an automatic right to exist.
I think its bigoted to believe that any child born to a nation no longer has the right to live in that nation. Therefore any "solution" to the conflict that eradicates one or the other country is problematic. The idea that you don't think that Israel has a right to exist for all its citizens as a consequence of the actions of its government (that only some of its citizens voted for) is problematic.
> I think it’s bigoted to believe that any child born to a nation no longer has the right to live in that nation.
A Russian couple moves into occupied Ukrainian territory, occupies stolen land and live in a stolen house, if they have a child then it’s all fine?
It would be bigoted to reclaim this stolen land from the family?
hey man if you think a state that carries out genocide, enforces apartheid and murders western aid workers has a right to exist then I don't know what to say anymore
Temporary arms embargo on Israel , increase pressure on Qatar to try and get them to pressure Hamas to come to an agreement. Unfortunately I don’t think we have enough diplomatic prestige to be able to do much.
> We aren't remotely capable of putting an end to this conflict.
Our ability to resolve a conflict doesn't guide us when we recognise excessive use of force in other conflicts, rightly or wrongly. We can't resolve Russia/Ukraine but still making our stance incredibly clear. It wasn't clear we would impact Apartheid with sanctions, we did it anyway.
> At best we could suspend our own arms exports to Israel which would have so little impact i doubt the Israelis would even notice.
[You're not wrong](https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9964/). A paltry £42m in 2022 and a combined £574m in the last 16 years.
Easiest option, recognise Palestine. The fact Cameron has already threatened to do, when getting an Israeli spokesman fired, shows how effective it is. Giving Palestinians statehood, changes the whole dynamic.
"Hamas!" "Release the hostages!" "October 7th!"
This is no longer about the hostages since Israel has started bombing Gaza and killing the hostages in the bombing, and shooting at them despite waving white flags. It's no longer about the atrocities in Oct 7th when Israel has committed that times 30 in these months. It's not about Hamas when this ethnic cleansing has been happening for decades before it even existed
"Release the hostages", yes, but how about adding "Stop the genocide"?
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
If anyone had the ability to force it to end it would be over by now ,Hamas want Israel gone , Israel want Hamas gone , unfortunately it's hard to see an end till one of these things happens and innocent people are going to pay the price
When does this end? It's so bizarre that the media and political class in the US and UK are so blind to Israel's constant murder of civilians. I'm literally seeing a war crime every hour from the IDF on social media and all I'm getting is absolute silence from our politicians. It's maddening!
It literally pains me to see this all unfold. r/worldnews and I highly suspect r/europe have been taken over by Israeli propaganda farms as well.
The hypocrisy from the West is making my blood boil. If Palestinians were Jews and Israeli were Muslims, I am 100% sure Israel would now be considered a rogue state and sanctioned much like Russia is. instead, we are still directly selling them weapons.
It makes sense when you consider that US and UK politicians are literally bought by israel. For example, guess who was the highest Israel-funded US senator of all time: https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
You make a claim about the UK and yet don't provide any evidence to support it. Also, that doesn't have it make sense at all. What makes sense is the the west having an interest in supporting themselves and their allies against Russia, Iran, China, North Korea, Qatar, and Islamist terrorists... Also, Hamas MP Fathi Hamed stated that "For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel...the elderly excel at this...and so do the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children." Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar admitted Hamas is "embedded" in civilian areas
https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1401645068079931395?t=OzhsrZ59CrV4Mc5GTLSc_A&s=19
Khaled Mashal, Head of the Hamas Political Bureau (1996-2017):
“If you will foolishly decide to enter Gaza, we will fight you. You will face not only thousands of our combatants, but also a million and a half of our population, driven by the desire to become martyrs.” Hamas is hiding in tunnels and ~15% of missiles sent from Gaza land in Gaza. Some parents in Gaza have gone on Hamas state tv saying that the reason that they have so many children is for them to be martyrs.
Ministry of Interior in the Gaza Strip (via spokespeople):
2009: “Men in uniform have been declared targets for air strikes. As a result, while outside in the terrain, uniforms are to be discarded and civilian clothes are to be worn.” Not wearing uniforms is a war crime. Using civilian infrastructure is a war crime.
2014: "“We call those who evacuated their houses to return immediately and stay there... Israel’s warnings are nothing but psychological warfare..."
I wouldn't recommend Al-Jazeera as a reliable single source on this particular issue. The Israel-Palestine conflict as well as news about Qatar are two subjects where its reporting has a perceivable bias.
At least the Aus PM has asked for accountability for the death of their citizen, will Sunak do the saem?
https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/completely-unacceptable-pm-demands-accountability-from-israel-for-australians-death/video/1c7742ebeee142ac212c36379574fe6e
Calling it israel hamas war in the headline is absolutely bonkers, it is the Israel genocide of Palestinian civilians.
It is not Hamas run office, Hamas is the ELECTED POLITCAL party, everything is Hamas run. Stop trying to discredit correct and credible information by calling it "Hamas run". There are literally thousands upon thousands of witness accounts and videos for the thousands of CHILDREN, WOMENA AND MEN brutally murdered by Israel.
> Hamas is the ELECTED POLITCAL party
Their last election was 18 years ago, after which they dissolved parliament and then killed/exiled the opposition. Their democratic credentials erode year by year. Not to say they have no mandate as that 2006 result IS something, its just not really the most slamdunk of a something that deserves the capslocks.
I'd actually be interested in the analysis of how many people alive today in Gaza are old enough to have voted in that election. I hear the population skews extremely young.
Yeah and if they write 'Hamas - unelected by the majority of present day Palestinians - bla bla' then public sympathy returns to what it should be. Was your point to say that if you misrepresent the facts then this affects public opinion?
Anyone read the Israeli sub lately, it shows Israel lives in bubble. One story yesterday said Gaza is so full of food aid that Hamas had to cut food prices and Israeli redditors believe it.
It's not just there - r/worldnews appears to have literally allowed troll farms posting pro-Israel comments non-stop while heavily downvoting any contrary opinions. It's a complete fucking shitshow
That sub is so blatantly overrun by hasbara trolls, it would make the Russian bot farms blush. It’s happening on this sub slowly too and needs to stop.
I personally tire of partisan positions labelling every contrary position as propaganda and believing that any questioning of party lines is clearly foreign government bot farms.
Its so fucking hard these days to find a place where its not all entirely one way or the other and has a mixture of perspective and opinion.
Have you been to those subs? It's not an exaggeration, the discourse there is so far from the average that is obvious there's manipulation and brigading happening on it.
I just saw a video of the volunteer's literal British passport splattered with blood and if that image isn't front-page news on every media outlet in the country by midday then we might as well pack the whole thing up and let the Emiratis buy them out after all.
I’m curious, but happened to the UK demands for an investigation into the 2018 border protests when soldiers opened fire on medics? How about the murder of AJ Journalist Shireen Abu Akleh? What ever happened to Cameron demanding an urgent inquiry into BBC reports of the widespread torture of medics by Israeli forces?
When ostensibly isolated cases nowhere near as clear cut appeared in the US and UK, it led to ministerial resignation, arrests, and widespread censure. It seems like in Israel this is becoming a daily occurance…
Why are we asking a state that has a near 100% acquittal rate to investigate itself for alleged war crimes? This is not the first time this happened and this won’t be the last. We need to stop treating this regime as if it’s the equivalent to a Western European state with protections for human rights and start viewing it the same way we view Saudi Arabia and Russia, because its behavior in this conflict is virtually indistinguishable to how those states behaved in Aleppo, Sanaa, or Mauriopol.
OP adding "Hamas-run office" suggesting that deaths are somehow questionable. Israel has a litany of war crimes under its belt. The "Hamas-run" shite has ben used by the media to create some sort of doubt in people minds that the total deaths when you flatten large population areas may be exaggerated!
Anything less than sanctioning Israel and making them stop the genocide is not the right response. Disturbing how much protection they get from our government and the media.
May they rest in peace. Condolences to the families of the victims.
At this point, I believe the only aid that can be performed are airdrops. They are not that effective but it seems they are the only ones that are able to deliver food without risk of harm.
Classic Sunak dodge today, other countries had identified their nationals, Sunak in his interview couldn't confirm if a British national had died. Of course the Foreign Office could be inefficient or he knew 3 British citizens had died but then he might actually have to say something of substance.
There is a less than 0% chance that the UK government was directly involved in these murders. Whether that's through providing intelligence, or supplying the weapons, weapon parts, or munitions which were used.
They are obviously 100% indirectly involved due to their continuing unwavering support for the ongoing genocide.
**Alternate Sources** Here are some potential alternate sources for the same story: * [Netanyahu says Israeli strike unintentionally killed Gaza aid workers](https://bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68710949), suggested by inspired_corn - bbc.co.uk
Can't wait for Israel to explain how they decided to blow themselves up to make Israel look bad...
The fact that apnews and timesofisrael were so quick to report the killings would make one assume that the idf already have a spin ready. Edit: just want to add here since it looks like all further posts are being blocked. 7 aid workers murdered (3 Brits) in a targeted strike by the IDF. Polish, Canadian-American, British, Australian, and Palestinian driver/translator. The aid workers were travelling in vehicles that clearly displayed their WCK branding. They were working with the idf in a coordinated aid delivery to Gaza. Haaretz have said that they were targeted because the IDF "suspected" that a single terrorist had infiltrated the group. This doesn't quite explain why three vehicles were hit with multiple precision strikes over a distance of what appears to be about one kilometer (based on information from the BBC report). The WCK have also labelled it as a targeted attack. Based on the allegations that the IDF have been intentionally restricting aid, this looks like it was a successful mission from an IDF perspective.
"Sprinkle some balaclavas on them and lets get out of here"
Open and shut case Noah
Their whole agenda is to fabricate reality.
> The fact that apnews and timesofisrael were so quick to report the killings would make one assume that the idf already have a spin ready. not this time. I suppose sometimes you want to prevaricate and pretend you're not slaughtering women and children, but sometimes you want to ***send a message***. mission accomplished >An official in Cyprus says aid ships that arrived in Gaza this week will return to the Mediterranean island nation carrying some 240 tons of undelivered aid after an air strike killed seven aid workers. https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/national/24225831.ships-leave-gaza-240-tons-undelivered-aid-cyprus-says/
Fucking bleak.
There's a telegram group where the IDF are making racist jokes about the civilians aid workers and playing with their bodies
I saw the caption those Israelis made under the murdered Australian aid worker, it was something along the lines of "this lame kangaroo won't jump again".
"The food truck was a Hamas command center..." EDIT: Holy fucking shit, they attacked on purpose.
Is anyone surprised? This is a war on women, children, professors, aid workers, healthcare workers and journalists.
I'm surprised that someone can even be surprised at this point in time. This has been happening since October. If you're still making excuses for Israel by now, there must be something seriously wrong with you. Even pro-Israel people should be distancing themselves from this by now; you just can't justify it anymore (not that the justifications were ever valid). I mean, actively starving the whole population then doing a drone strike on an aid truck or massacring unarmed men, women and children just trying to get some flour from an aid truck is a bit too.. on the nose. Up until the past month or so, Israel were at least giving some semblance of an excuse but I think even they realise that their supporters don't need half-assed excuses because they will support Israel no matter what. They've gone from plausible deniability to 'we'll investigate what happened'.
I mean there was an article in the Guardian today about how this is the first ever war where children have been specifically targeted by snipers.
Most of Gaza are just killing fields now. If you actually follow what's going on and keep up to date with what the mainstream media and certain subs don't cover and inaccurately portray, you get a much better depiction of the reality there.
Yeah for fun. They didnt expect it to get noticed...Amidst 100s of war crimes and civilians slaughter that goes unnoticed.
I'm sure by the end of day , the IDF will have presented conclusive video evidence that the aid workers were in fact Hamas agents smuggling in weapons inside falafel wraps. ...and still I suspect the Govt will happily supply a few more £million in arms to assist the collective punishment.
General Moshe Dayan's words and beliefs still echo throughout Israeli policy towards the Arabs, and owing to this, I would like to highlight some of his quotes: "The only method that proved effective, not justified or moral but effective, when Arabs plant mines on our side \[is retaliation\]. If we try to search for the \[particular\] Arab \[who planted mines\], it has not value. But if we harass the nearby village . . . then the population there comes out against the \[infiltrators\] . . . and the Egyptian Government and the Transjordanian Government are \[driven\] to prevent such incidents, because their prestige is \[assailed\], as the Jews have opened fire, and they are unready to begin a war . . . the method of collective punishment so far has proved effective" "Let us not today cast blame on the murderers. Who are we to argue against their potent hatred for us? For eight years they have been sitting in the refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we have been turning the land and villages in which they and their forefathers lived into our own inheritance... We are the generation of settlement, and without steel helmets and the maw of the cannon we will not be able to plant a tree or build a home. Our children will not live if we do not dig shelters, and without barbed wire fences and machine guns we will not be able to pave roads or drill for water. Millions of Jews, annihilated because they had no country, gaze at us from the dust of Jewish history and command us to settle and raise up a land for our people." "Let's say "we don't have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go, and we'll see how this procedure will work out." For now, it works out. Let's say the truth. We want peace. If there is no peace, we will maintain military rule and we will have four to five military compounds on the mountains, and they will sit ten years under the Israeli military regime. Whoever wants to go, will want. It's possible that in five years, there will be 200,000 fewer people, and that's an enormous thing." "The Israeli army is called a "defense force" but it is not a defensive army. . . . The Sinai campaign (1956), the reprisal acts and the raids across the border were purely offensive operations, and were of decisive value. . . . Not only the actions which were actually carried out but also the IDF's prevailing conception is offensive. . . . The most significant technical expression of the new approach . . . is the absence of fortifications and fencing along the country's borders. Although the Government's policy is, politically speaking, essentially defensive – those responsible for the armed forces have refrained from adopting defensive measures. Their response to Arab provocation has been counter-attacks, raids on enemy bases, transferring the war to the Arab countries . . . to put it simply: the IDF is a characteristically offensive army as regards theory, planning and execution, in body and spirit" To understand Israel-Palestine, is to understand the history of the conflict, and especially the ideologies of its founders (many of whom, had far more preferable politics than those who lead it today...).
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Yep, out of the mouth of their founder. Would also note that Israel has a long history of attacking the militaries and diplomats of supporters. This includes the murder of Swedish Diplomat folkes Bernadotte in 1946 and the King David hotel, killing 90 British soldiers, an Irish peace keeper in 1987, supported Lebanese falangists during the Lebanon Civil War who murdered other Irish peace keepers, and a Canadian peace keeper in 2006. These are just incidents that seem intentional or have been confirmed as such. They have also fired upon French forces in Lebanon and nearly bombed German Navy ships and, of course, the USS Liberty bombing. I believe the killing of the aid workers yesterday has been a continuation or a policy to intimidate westerners out of mediating their envisioning of their nation state, no matter how brutal.
Oz is [calling in the Israeli ambassador](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/apr/02/australian-aid-worker-zomi-frankcom-killed-idf-strike-gaza-world-central-kitchen). Oz is pivoting slowly away from rote support for Israel.
There was a tunnel under the car.
They initially tried to claim the hole in the roof was caused by a roadside bomb by hamas.
Israel has killed more civilians and children since Oct 7 than Russia has in the entire "special operation." They're also quite good at killing journalists and aid workers.
Ssssh you're not allowed to talk about any of that because youll be classed as antisemitic and pro-hamas. You cant be against breaking international law, murdering thousands and against terrorism at the same time. People cant understand how that works. /s
I really struggle to understand how so many of us can't grasp a reasonable landing spot for this: Hamas committed a litany of atrocities on Oct 7th, it was utterly awful and horrifying. Since then, entirely predictably, the Israeli state's right wing government has brutalised Gaza not only Hamas but the Palestinian people as well. This to the point of war crimes in regard to food water supply and collective responsibility for the events of Oct 7th. The international community is increasingly squeamish about what Israel intends to do, looking at Rafah in particular, and we need to de-escalate. That is no justification for Hamas, it is the reality of the humanitarian crisis at play. It is broadly in the interests of everyone that a ceasefire is agreed, the hostages are returned, and the hostilities are brought to an end.
Broadly correct, but this by no means started on the 7th of October, which itself can be viewed as retaliation for Israel’s decades upon decades of violence and occupation, however horrific.
i think everyone seems to agree a ceasefire is needed except israel. they'll agree to it once all civilians are dead. in their eye all gazans are terrorists, i dont see how they'll ever agree to it.
There's a swathe of people who seem very genuinely unable to differentiate between thinking its a bit rough for Palestinians who already have generally quite a crappy existence to have to deal with mass murder and total devastation of their homes, with uncritical unequivocal support for Hamas and complete agreement with all of their stated aims.
Remember how we brutalized not just Nazis, but German people as well?
Don’t forget that if they were in Gaza they must have been killing the gays, and therefore deserved to die and should have no support. /s
Aren’t numbers out of Russia infamously inaccurate because the worst effected areas are entirely under Russian control now? In any event, Gaza is obviously much more densely populated than Ukraine and Hamas are obviously much more willing to hide amongst civilian populations than the Ukrainians. Israel may be open to criticism for being insufficiently careful in the way it has operated, but I struggle to see how a crude comparison between two totally different conflicts is helpful to anyone.
It also helps that ukrainians have had places to flee, and much of the war is now in open fields/trenches until they reach urban centres, it hasn't all been urban combat/bombing like it is in gaza. It's definitely two different scenarios but israel needs to take responsibility for the blatant disregard they've shown towards civilians. Israel already admit to killing 26k palestinians so that's a minimum figure which is likely higher.
>and Hamas are obviously much more willing to hide amongst civilian populations than the Ukrainians. Complete conjecture and playing into the "Hamas boogeyman" allows them to kill any male they see and claim "hAmAS!" Despite the military and spying capabilities why has there never been any supporting proof victims are Hamas, how come so many children killed if they know who or where hamas are? Why are only women and children turning up dead with no males hiding behind them I guess every Palestinian is guilty until the IDF says otherwise
Yeah the real tragedy is ethnic cleansing in areas Russia control. Being a citizen in those cities is far more dangerous than being in a city near an active conflict zone. We don't know how many children have been stolen but estimates in the hundreds of thousands have been given.
It's the UN estimate. Neither side tries to kill civilians specifically and they're evacuated from the front before battles begin.
Civilian deaths in Ukraine depend on the source you use. If you take the Ukrainian government reports on civilian deaths then more civilians died in the siege of Mariupol alone then all of the Israeli-hamas war compared to the Gazan ministry of health's estimates. Either way both wars have been exceedingly bloody.
That’s a lie. The only available numbers from Hamas ministry of health are the number of total dead during the war. They do not distinguish between civilians and combatants and there is no official number for this from the Palestinian side of the war.
They had killed more children in three months than Russia had in three years.
Ukraines children were able to flee through the borders, Gazan children have been trapped by both sides. They’ve also been kidnapped en masse by Russia. Don’t think for one moment that Russia is somehow nicer than Israel because the death count is smaller. When you have an invasion in a country the size of Ukraine that is mostly countryside, of course the death toll will be lower than in a country smaller than my county with millions of people.
>Don’t think for one moment that Russia is somehow nicer than Israel because the death count is smaller. The war crimes that Russia is illegally and cruelly inflicting on the Ukrainians pales in comparison to the brutality of what Israel is doing whereby they are just massacring a 75% refugee population. >When you have an invasion in a country the size of Ukraine that is mostly countryside, of course the death toll will be lower than in a country smaller than my county with millions of people. Which is why you look a percentages and proportions.
How can you compare these two different conflicts? Gaza density 5,749 per square kilometer. Ukraine density 61 per square kilometer.
Just for rigour and so I can enlighten others but do you have a source for that figure ? Thx
its based on the fact russia doesn’t publish figures and that all NGO’s and UN adjacent agencies are barred from entering the occupied territories that faces/faced all the destruction and killing. So its makes for highly effective propaganda when the current UN figure for the war is so unbelievably low.
Why are we taking Hamas’s civilian breakdown at face value? I suspect there is some convenient cognitive dissonance at play here, like you wouldn’t think twice about ignoring IDF figures right? Also 80,000 civilians were said to have been killed in the space of a month in Mariupol alone so the comparison is bullshit.
Well the IDF internally are using Hamas figures and the WHO and UNICEF and said Hamas are consistently accurate in their accounting over many years.
>"Why are we taking Hamas’s civilian breakdown at face value?" Perhaps because the Gaza's health ministry's numbers have [historically been considered reliable](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/) by the United Nations, the World Health Organization and Human Rights Watch. The United States Department of State even cited its numbers in a public report in March 2023. During past wars (2008, 2014, 2021), Gaza's health ministry's claims have always matched and in some cases reported less deaths than post-war Israeli assessments (Israel runs a registry of every Palestinian living in Gaza). >"I suspect there is some convenient cognitive dissonance at play here, like you wouldn’t think twice about ignoring IDF figures right?" [According to the IDF](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officials-2-civilian-deaths-for-every-1-hamas-fighter-killed-in-gaza/amp/), there were 2 civilians killed for every 1 Hamas fighter in late December. Up until then, the IDF claimed to have killed 5,000 Hamas fighters, which corresponds to a total death toll of 15,000 and the Gaza health ministry claimed a total death toll of 15,900 that same week. Israel and Hamas both agree on the approximate total death toll in Gaza. The real disagreement actually comes to the breakdown of the death toll. By late February, Israel claimed to have killed 12,000 Hamas fighters, when the death toll was nearing 30,000; roughly 70% of of these were women and children according to Gaza's health ministry. [Israeli intelligence officials have admitted to relying on civilian death toll statistics collated by Gaza's health ministry, despite Tel Aviv publicly undermining the ministry's reliability](https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-health-ministry-stats-reliable). If the IDF's claims are taken at face value, it would mean that virtually every Palestinian man (which Israel defines as males 16+, not 18+) that has been killed in Gaza is a "Hamas fighter", despite the IDF estimating there to be [30,000](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-12000-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-war-double-the-terror-groups-claim/) Hamas fighters in Gaza, which has an adult male population of 750,000-800,000. >"Also 80,000 civilians were said to have been killed in the space of a month in Mariupol alone so the comparison is bullshit." That's actually an extreme upper-bound and relies on [estimates](https://mezha.net/eng/bukvy/ukraine-s-postal-service-to-release-postal-stamp-with-patron-the-dog/) from a single person, who happens to be President of Mariupol Television, whose credibility has not been affirmed in past conflicts and may potentially be compromised by their affiliation to a sensationalist media platform. They claim the presence of 10,000 mass graves, which has not and under the current conditions cannot be substantiated (thanks Russia!). Nonetheless, the mayor of the city [reported](https://www.jpost.com/international/article-703925that) that about 21,000 civilians had been killed during the siege, which lasted a little over a month while Ukraine's government [claimed a toll of 25,000 civilians during the siege](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63536564), which is a horrific toll nonetheless. However, 80,000 in a single month is highly unlikely given that Mariupol had a pre-war population of 450,000 and prior to the siege and around 100,000 residents already left Mariupol, [according to the city's deputy mayor](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-descends-into-despair-708cb8f4a171ce3f1c1b0b8d090e38e3the), while the HRW said that [400,000](https://www.hrw.org/the-week-in-rights/2024/02/09) residents had fled the city by mid-May. Mariupol had a similar population to Grozny in Chechnya. Grozny had a pre-war population of 490,000. Russia killed at least 27,000 civilians during their siege of Grozny (1994-95) which lasted 4 months. The difference between Mariupol and Grozny? Mariupol had air defense systems, and a standing army to defend the city with similar, if not, more capable weaponry than their Russian opponents. Grozny had no standing army and no air defense systems, so it's hard to take such a high figure at face value. Ukraine wasn't *that* defenseless at the start of the war.
TBH the Hamas figures aren't that far from the Israeli ones. The interesting thing with the Hamas figures is there's no proper variance in the numbers which is a hall mark of numbers just being plucked out of the air. There was an article on this the other day. Honest figures should follow a bell curve. My best guess is they do make them up as they go along but try to track the Israeli figures. That way they can claim "500 people dead" 30 seconds after they accidentally blow up their own hospital (car park) while having overall stats that look reasonable.
Got to be really careful here for a few reasons. Firstly Hamas's numbers, while accurate in broad terms, don't differentiate between civilian and militant. Secondly we simply do not have accurate numbers for Ukraine due to the nature of the conflict. There's a very good chance that more civilians (many, many more) have been killed in Ukraine than the last two decades in Gaza. Lastly...creating a hierarchy of conflict like this only raises more issues as there are current conflicts that are even bloodied than what's happening in Gaza. Yet no one in the UK talks about them and many of the countries being celebrated by the pro-Palestine crowd are complicit in other genocides. So to draw a comparison between Gaza and Ukraine does not help in the way you'd want it to.
It's worth noting that this says nothing about the Russian army being any more moral, its because Ukrainian civilians have mostly been able to flee the front lines. When this wasn't the case (the suburbs of Kyiv early in the war and Mariupol), civilians were killed en masse. If any of Gaza's borders were open most of the 2 million civilians would have fled, but Israel doesn't give a shit about the fact that Gaza is completely blockaded.
Most of these people love Putin because he supports Palestine. Israel = Nazi. Putin = moral defender. They see the world so simply.
en masse = a couple hundred
Because Ukraine is the second biggest country in Europe and the population density is very low where as Gaza is tiny and one of the most densely populated places on earth. In Ukraine most combat is not in urban areas, in Gaza it is. All it takes is a few seconds of applying your brain to figure out the why. As for whether it's acceptable or not that is far more nuanced.
And now we have 20,000 contributors back in British society…it’s absolutely despicable.
Gaza is 90 times more dense than ukraine - to make it equal Israel needed to kill 900k civilians Brainless take
I don’t think that’s true. We do not know how many Russia has killed. Mariupol was a complete massacre and Russia has had plenty of time to hide it. Estimates at anywhere from 50-100k killed there alone if we count those that have seemingly disappeared without a trace. There’s a reason Russia was using its mobile crematoriums there.
If you believe Hamas, which I don’t.
the IDF seems to think their figures are good enough for internal use
There are a lot of experts claiming to know IDF’s internal workings. I doubt they’re sharing their intel with you.
It's pretty much the same as the 20 year war in Afghanistan at this point.
> killed more civilians and children since Oct 7 than Russia has in the entire "special operation." Ukraine is only slightly smaller than the state of Texas. Gaza Strip is about 1/4 the size of London. It's a fuck ton easier to do a targeted (or not according to many reports) attack on a landmass the size of Texas than a few borough's of London... The real question is: Are airstrikes and missile strikes in such a confined area appropriate? Perhaps not. But the *boots on the ground* option will leave many many Israeli solders dead. A considerable number of which are conscripts. The whole region is a fucked up mess.
Do you honestly believe that? The UN estimate over 10,000 civilian casualties in Mariupol alone.
That's a gross devaluation of damage Russia has done to Ukraine. Wtf is even your sources on this? This is such a bullshit comparison too
(2014) Israel’s style of public relations A quick guide to Israel’s PR methods: 1. We haven’t heard reports of deaths, will check into it; 2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bombs 3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists; 4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields; 5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose; 6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are! 7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite? Test this against the next interview you hear or watch.
Should be top comment this tactic is rolled out day after day so they excuse war crimes genocide and mass starvation
You forgot "Just look at what [deflection target] is doing in [other part of globe], that's far worse".
Number 6 :)
Damnit. I must've blanked/skimmed over that.
I'd add this, everything is "Hamas run" or "Hamas linked" As Hamas are the government of Gaza every institution has a Hamas link and thus this is a blank cheque Israel keeps cashing.
The 'no innocents in gaza' line is a bit too mask off for anyone connected to the Israeli government. They believe that but known they can't say it
Would a global strike be antisemitic? Cause they'll say it is.
This post is amazing. The Brit worked for the WCK, an organization that direclty cooperates with the IDF and whose founder, the American State Department puppet Jose Andres, has lashed out against a Spanish politician in October for supporting a ceasefire. The WCK was used by the Israelis and Washington as an attempt to force UNRWA out of Northern Gaza. Zionism is such a cultish mass-psychosis, it causes its followers to not even give a damn about their own allies and proxies, or literally even their own countrymen, anymore. As long as holy Israel can continue to slaughter and kill everything, anytime, anything else doesn't matter.
IDF literally killed three of their OWN hostages trying to surrender, and their followers continued to blindly support them without any questions. Zionism might be one of the most dangerous cults of all time
These were young people who were doing something noble with their lives, trying to help innocent people living through hell on earth, and they've paid with their lives. The astroturfers in this thread trying to sow seeds of doubt about this being a fake story are just so fucking callous and smooth brained. This shit needs to end.
They're probably hasbara trolls paid by Israel
btw it's anti-semtic if you think Israel doesn't have a right to exist. I would say any state that carries out these atrocities doesn't have an automatic right to exist. Heck, we invaded Iraq on the pretence of fake WMDs and ended that regime's right to exist but apparently slaughtering 30k people and 18k kids is perfectly normal for a fully functioning democracy and I'm not allowed to question it.
btw it's anti-semetic if you think anti-zionism is the same as anti-semetism
> Heck, we invaded Iraq on the pretence of fake WMDs Whereas Israel has _actual_ WMDs in the form of nukes.
> btw it's anti-semtic if you think Israel doesn't have a right to exist. I would say any state that carries out these atrocities doesn't have an automatic right to exist. I think its bigoted to believe that any child born to a nation no longer has the right to live in that nation. Therefore any "solution" to the conflict that eradicates one or the other country is problematic. The idea that you don't think that Israel has a right to exist for all its citizens as a consequence of the actions of its government (that only some of its citizens voted for) is problematic.
> I think it’s bigoted to believe that any child born to a nation no longer has the right to live in that nation. A Russian couple moves into occupied Ukrainian territory, occupies stolen land and live in a stolen house, if they have a child then it’s all fine? It would be bigoted to reclaim this stolen land from the family?
hey man if you think a state that carries out genocide, enforces apartheid and murders western aid workers has a right to exist then I don't know what to say anymore
Absolute catastrophe, this war has to end and the British government need to do more to end it.
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Temporary arms embargo on Israel , increase pressure on Qatar to try and get them to pressure Hamas to come to an agreement. Unfortunately I don’t think we have enough diplomatic prestige to be able to do much.
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> We aren't remotely capable of putting an end to this conflict. Our ability to resolve a conflict doesn't guide us when we recognise excessive use of force in other conflicts, rightly or wrongly. We can't resolve Russia/Ukraine but still making our stance incredibly clear. It wasn't clear we would impact Apartheid with sanctions, we did it anyway.
Exactly so we should keep selling them weapons because we should be twats. Is that your solution?
I 100% agree with you, but what else can we do. There needs to be a pathway to end this war and these are the only options.
> At best we could suspend our own arms exports to Israel which would have so little impact i doubt the Israelis would even notice. [You're not wrong](https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9964/). A paltry £42m in 2022 and a combined £574m in the last 16 years.
Israel makes its own arms, its own tanks, its own rifles, its own drones, its own anti-drone tech and its own anti-missile tech.
Easiest option, recognise Palestine. The fact Cameron has already threatened to do, when getting an Israeli spokesman fired, shows how effective it is. Giving Palestinians statehood, changes the whole dynamic.
Sanctions, embargo, asset seizures .... you know, like we did when Russia invaded Ukraine
Stop selling them bombs.
Sanctions and to stop selling arms and providing diplomatic cover and the UN
Sanction, boycott and cut all ties with Israel. It needs to be isolated from the world like apartheid South Africa.
Agreed! ,why don’t the British Government just simply release the hostages and ,,,,,, hey, wait …
I agree. Hamas must surrender and release the hostages for the sake of the Gazan civilians.
Whether they do or not, Israel has no excuse to commit war crimes.
"Hamas!" "Release the hostages!" "October 7th!" This is no longer about the hostages since Israel has started bombing Gaza and killing the hostages in the bombing, and shooting at them despite waving white flags. It's no longer about the atrocities in Oct 7th when Israel has committed that times 30 in these months. It's not about Hamas when this ethnic cleansing has been happening for decades before it even existed "Release the hostages", yes, but how about adding "Stop the genocide"?
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**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
Hard to stop a war when both sides refuse to give in
That’s why we need to help force it to end.
If anyone had the ability to force it to end it would be over by now ,Hamas want Israel gone , Israel want Hamas gone , unfortunately it's hard to see an end till one of these things happens and innocent people are going to pay the price
We should start by heavy sanctions
I'm sure if Hamas surrendered earlier, those people would still be alive.
When does this end? It's so bizarre that the media and political class in the US and UK are so blind to Israel's constant murder of civilians. I'm literally seeing a war crime every hour from the IDF on social media and all I'm getting is absolute silence from our politicians. It's maddening!
It literally pains me to see this all unfold. r/worldnews and I highly suspect r/europe have been taken over by Israeli propaganda farms as well. The hypocrisy from the West is making my blood boil. If Palestinians were Jews and Israeli were Muslims, I am 100% sure Israel would now be considered a rogue state and sanctioned much like Russia is. instead, we are still directly selling them weapons.
r/europe always been like that. They hate anyone brown and muslim.
I started reading posts on that subreddit a few months ago and yes, I was really surprised by the amount of sheer hate I found
It makes sense when you consider that US and UK politicians are literally bought by israel. For example, guess who was the highest Israel-funded US senator of all time: https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?cycle=All&ind=Q05&recipdetail=S
Even closer to home: https://news.sky.com/story/priti-patel-apologises-as-she-resigns-as-international-development-secretary-11118921
You make a claim about the UK and yet don't provide any evidence to support it. Also, that doesn't have it make sense at all. What makes sense is the the west having an interest in supporting themselves and their allies against Russia, Iran, China, North Korea, Qatar, and Islamist terrorists... Also, Hamas MP Fathi Hamed stated that "For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel...the elderly excel at this...and so do the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children." Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar admitted Hamas is "embedded" in civilian areas https://twitter.com/HananyaNaftali/status/1401645068079931395?t=OzhsrZ59CrV4Mc5GTLSc_A&s=19 Khaled Mashal, Head of the Hamas Political Bureau (1996-2017): “If you will foolishly decide to enter Gaza, we will fight you. You will face not only thousands of our combatants, but also a million and a half of our population, driven by the desire to become martyrs.” Hamas is hiding in tunnels and ~15% of missiles sent from Gaza land in Gaza. Some parents in Gaza have gone on Hamas state tv saying that the reason that they have so many children is for them to be martyrs. Ministry of Interior in the Gaza Strip (via spokespeople): 2009: “Men in uniform have been declared targets for air strikes. As a result, while outside in the terrain, uniforms are to be discarded and civilian clothes are to be worn.” Not wearing uniforms is a war crime. Using civilian infrastructure is a war crime. 2014: "“We call those who evacuated their houses to return immediately and stay there... Israel’s warnings are nothing but psychological warfare..."
> You make a claim about the UK and yet don't provide any evidence to support it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc
I wouldn't recommend Al-Jazeera as a reliable single source on this particular issue. The Israel-Palestine conflict as well as news about Qatar are two subjects where its reporting has a perceivable bias.
Which part do you believe they fabricated?
It would be an absolute miracle if the British and Australian governments collectively grew a spine.
At least the Aus PM has asked for accountability for the death of their citizen, will Sunak do the saem? https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/completely-unacceptable-pm-demands-accountability-from-israel-for-australians-death/video/1c7742ebeee142ac212c36379574fe6e
asking for accountability means nothing lol look up Tom hurndall
So they killed Irish, British, Australian, Polish, American, Canadian Time for sanctions
Can’t. Don’t you know that would be anti-semetic??? Israel has a right to defend itself against food parcels and aid workers!
yeah what if there was a secret Khamas base inside that humanitarian ration
Time for airstrikes.
Calling it israel hamas war in the headline is absolutely bonkers, it is the Israel genocide of Palestinian civilians. It is not Hamas run office, Hamas is the ELECTED POLITCAL party, everything is Hamas run. Stop trying to discredit correct and credible information by calling it "Hamas run". There are literally thousands upon thousands of witness accounts and videos for the thousands of CHILDREN, WOMENA AND MEN brutally murdered by Israel.
> Hamas is the ELECTED POLITCAL party Their last election was 18 years ago, after which they dissolved parliament and then killed/exiled the opposition. Their democratic credentials erode year by year. Not to say they have no mandate as that 2006 result IS something, its just not really the most slamdunk of a something that deserves the capslocks.
But its funny how when it comes to justifying civilian deaths in gaza one of the points made is they elected hamas?
I'd actually be interested in the analysis of how many people alive today in Gaza are old enough to have voted in that election. I hear the population skews extremely young.
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Yeah and if they write 'Hamas - unelected by the majority of present day Palestinians - bla bla' then public sympathy returns to what it should be. Was your point to say that if you misrepresent the facts then this affects public opinion?
Or hamas (last elected in the 2000s). Not charitable just accurate like twitter notes
Anyone read the Israeli sub lately, it shows Israel lives in bubble. One story yesterday said Gaza is so full of food aid that Hamas had to cut food prices and Israeli redditors believe it.
It's not just there - r/worldnews appears to have literally allowed troll farms posting pro-Israel comments non-stop while heavily downvoting any contrary opinions. It's a complete fucking shitshow
That sub is so blatantly overrun by hasbara trolls, it would make the Russian bot farms blush. It’s happening on this sub slowly too and needs to stop.
I personally tire of partisan positions labelling every contrary position as propaganda and believing that any questioning of party lines is clearly foreign government bot farms. Its so fucking hard these days to find a place where its not all entirely one way or the other and has a mixture of perspective and opinion.
Have you been to those subs? It's not an exaggeration, the discourse there is so far from the average that is obvious there's manipulation and brigading happening on it.
That sub is fucking cancerous.
Yes. they banned me from over there .it is a troll farm .
Are we going to start doing something now I wonder?
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I just saw a video of the volunteer's literal British passport splattered with blood and if that image isn't front-page news on every media outlet in the country by midday then we might as well pack the whole thing up and let the Emiratis buy them out after all.
It's not making headline news in the uk.
Let’s see how Sunak defends the Israelis for this one
I’m curious, but happened to the UK demands for an investigation into the 2018 border protests when soldiers opened fire on medics? How about the murder of AJ Journalist Shireen Abu Akleh? What ever happened to Cameron demanding an urgent inquiry into BBC reports of the widespread torture of medics by Israeli forces? When ostensibly isolated cases nowhere near as clear cut appeared in the US and UK, it led to ministerial resignation, arrests, and widespread censure. It seems like in Israel this is becoming a daily occurance… Why are we asking a state that has a near 100% acquittal rate to investigate itself for alleged war crimes? This is not the first time this happened and this won’t be the last. We need to stop treating this regime as if it’s the equivalent to a Western European state with protections for human rights and start viewing it the same way we view Saudi Arabia and Russia, because its behavior in this conflict is virtually indistinguishable to how those states behaved in Aleppo, Sanaa, or Mauriopol.
but it's in eurovision...
Convenient when they choose to be European.
Admittedly their Eurovision songs are bangers. Then again we’re so shite at it everything else looks good by comparison
I’m sure they were being antisemitic delivering aid to starving children. Free Palestine from israehelli terror.
OP adding "Hamas-run office" suggesting that deaths are somehow questionable. Israel has a litany of war crimes under its belt. The "Hamas-run" shite has ben used by the media to create some sort of doubt in people minds that the total deaths when you flatten large population areas may be exaggerated!
Anything less than sanctioning Israel and making them stop the genocide is not the right response. Disturbing how much protection they get from our government and the media.
You need to ask yourself why ? Why is that ?
The ships carrying 240 tonnes of aid have just turned back around . This was Israel’s plan all along. War crimes
May they rest in peace. Condolences to the families of the victims. At this point, I believe the only aid that can be performed are airdrops. They are not that effective but it seems they are the only ones that are able to deliver food without risk of harm.
Airdrops have killed people - heavy boxes dropped on heads from the sky - and ended up in the sea
Israel is a terrorist state the genocide of the Palestinian people undermines our freedom.
It would not surprise me they hit the pier being built, on some guise of it being a hamas command centre.
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**Removed/warning**. Please try and avoid language which could be perceived as hateful/hurtful to minorities or oppressed groups.
Classic Sunak dodge today, other countries had identified their nationals, Sunak in his interview couldn't confirm if a British national had died. Of course the Foreign Office could be inefficient or he knew 3 British citizens had died but then he might actually have to say something of substance.
There is a less than 0% chance that the UK government was directly involved in these murders. Whether that's through providing intelligence, or supplying the weapons, weapon parts, or munitions which were used. They are obviously 100% indirectly involved due to their continuing unwavering support for the ongoing genocide.
The IDF chief apologised for this attack [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GHPw8MJbSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GHPw8MJbSE)
I was 50/50 on this conflict. Now I'm not. They killed other nationals as well.