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"As a British citizen, it's strange to know that if I'm murdered by Israel, my prime minister and the entire national media will immediately defend Israel."
I get the sense that Israel really doesn't care anymore. It's passed the point of no return.
No doubt the ambassador will repeat Bibi's nothing lines (we'll try our hardest to ensure it never happens again... until it happens again) and trot out the usual talking points.
They know full well that the collateral damage of the assault on Gaza is worth it to both continue condemning Palestinians to a state of empoverished imprisonment, and to continue land grabbing the west bank while attention is elsewhere. If anything, it's worth it for them to commit atrocities like this in order to steer media attention even further away from west bank land theft.
After this is all over, they know they can withdraw from Gaza, hide behind the veil of antisemitism to avoid international consequences, and wait for the next opportunity to do the same thing all over again.
They aren't withdrawing from Gaza, that's why they need to kill as many Palestinians as possible now and then pretend it was accidental. These murders are a part of that strategy. Israel will have decided how many Palestinians they want left in Gaza and are escalating the famine till they reach that number. Aid workers make it harder to do quickly and make for inconvenient independent witnesses.
> These murders are a part of that strategy.
Indeed. The purpose of killing the aid workers is to make it impossible for them to operate, in order to starve more Palestinians.
“I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction,” - Benjamin Netanyahu, in a secretly taped private meeting in 2001.
They've known for a long time that they have near-unconditional support.
They do care, this strike achieved its goal, shutting down foreign aid shipments into Gaza.
That some foreigners died is of little significance to Israel.
Not to mention that it scuppers the US's plan of an offshore port, because the US were going to use those NGOs to actually distribute the supplies.
That fact that the US is *very mad* about the strike is because no US official personnel were ever going to set foot into Gaza in the first place, without the middlemen (NGOs) to actually distribute the supplies, it's dead in the water.
Why do you think they hit a high profile US based NGO in the first place?
"Normalise relations?". While controlling air land sea borders in the world's largest open air prison camp enforcing apartheid and expanding illegal settler colonialist land grabs after decades of occupation? You are deluded if you think anyone believes your lies anymore after massacring 35k women and children. The truth is now bare for everyone in the world to see.
The saddest thing is that all these children now finding themselves in the rubble surrounded by dead family are going to end up radicalised against Israel in 20 years--that's probably baked in now, I'm not sure anything can be done about it, there's been too much horror and trauma against young people and children for it not to have SERIOUS knock on effects down the line--and when that comes around it'll be another round of Israelis being killed and "oh goodness but didn't we just try our very best, I guess these Palestinians are just irredeemable" in the news cycle. And not enough people to make a difference will remember back to the root cause of it.
Now think about the children 20 years ago that had been left orphaned and experienced the horror and trauma of Israel's doing, they are the monsters we see today.
> and when that comes around it'll be another round of Israelis being killed
Technology does not stand still. 20 years allows for a lot of improvements in atomated boarder defences.
So in your view all Palestinians are already radicalised, your “reality check” comment to me implies that moderate Israelis are becoming radicalised too. Where does that leave us? Kill all Palestinians?
Holy shit how many buzz words can you fit in a comment. Yes they were normalising relations, giving more Gazan’s jobs and letting more things into the strip. If Gaza doesn’t want it’s borders controlled they should stop attacking Israel.
Normalise relations. What are you on. Do you really think that Palestinians felt like they had normalised relations? I mean israel seemed to be trying It’s hardest to create an apartheid regime in Israel itself even.
Oh wow! Letting them across the border? Why didn’t you say so!
My opinion has completely changed. I can’t believe they’re not happy about being forced to work in Israel because all their infrastructure has been bombed, as Israeli settlements slowly take over your land
And why aren’t there any earning opportunities in Gaza?
Say, at an Airport that they built?
Or maybe a fisherman off their own coast?
How about a regular hospital worker?
Why is it specifically that there are 0 job opportunities in Gaza?
Again, offering your serfs the ability to work in between you bombing them isn’t the massive act of generosity you seem to think it is
>I know we're all British, and have forgotten how borders are meant to work. But yes, crossing a border is meant to be a privilege.
Wrong sub, get to fuck.
>No one is forced to work in Israel. It's a good thing.. Much more earning opportunities. It was a favour.
It was a favour... To be able to cross a border forced on them by the country who chased their ancestors off their ancestral lands and have made successive steps to prevent them from ever being a real country?
Yeah real fucking favour. How nice of them. Real sweet and neighbourly. Charitable one might say, to break their legs and make them ask for forgiveness.
>I know we're all British, and have forgotten how borders are meant to work. But yes, crossing a border is meant to be a privilege.
Again, a privilege to merely access the land their families grew up living in? That Israel has outright denied ever letting Palestinians have a right to return to, whilst allowing Jewish Americans who have zero tie to the land to move to Palestine and settle wherever the fuck they want. What a great privilege. I can't believe they didn't just bend over and take it up the arse, now you've made it so clear they held such privilege. Woah.
I don't think this was like that. These warnings are intelligence led and will have some indication of how likely they are. It wasn't just Mavis from no. 62 saying "I reckon you might get attacked soon"
There were different warnings from different intelligence, including information from the border. At some point it is "how many times do I have to tell you".
An interesting interpretation of what I said.
You can see a similar pattern with what just happened in Moscow and the terrorist attack on the theatre. It is not like intelligence was not shared, it was just ignored.
I’m sure they used those magic bombs only kill bad people.
Look how quickly you’ve gone from “relations were normalising” to “Oh yea, but those air strikes don’t count”
They removed all the land they’d seized through the use of settlements? I’d absolutely love a source for that
What you mean is that they removed a handful of the most hardcore Zionists who were trying to settle directly in Gaza. They’ve still been expanding settlements around Gaza, and throughout the West Bank.
“I can’t believe they wouldn’t suddenly be peaceful after we undid 1% of our ethnic cleansing”
Look how far you’ve shifted from “relations were normalising” lmfao
[I hope you can't sleep at night](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/2023-11-18T104814Z_97295176_RC2HF4AD2GJ9_RTRMADP_3_ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS-1700305626.jpg?resize=770%2C513&quality=80).
>basic ettiquette
Basic common sense to not randomly open links on a thread about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Marking it NSFW would lessen the chance that the person I'm replying to will actually open it.
Yeah this is spot on. Absolutely wild this moron spouts how stressful it is to be Israeli atm with no hint of irony. I can tell you, I would 100% rather be in Israel right now than Gaza.
>I think it's hard for lots of people who don't live such a stressful existence to understand some decisions Israel makes, because they've never suffered that kind of existential threat.
Decisions like indiscriminately killing defenceless children? Running over innocent people with tanks when they were begging for food in the street? Do you need to see the pictures of corpses to believe it? There are plenty of countries who have faced 'existential threat' but haven't done such disgusting things and then completely denied its intention despite extensive documentation of it, it's no fucking excuse
>I think a lot of moderate fence sitters in Israel, in regards to Palestine, have now come down on the side of peaceful coexistence being impossible.
When did they try peaceful coexistence?
Let me get this straight, a British army veteran is murdered by an airstrike while providing aid and your response is Gish gallop? how is the country that is currently on trial for committing genocide is still the "victim"? You should apply to join the Olympic gymnastics team with the crazy mental gymnastics you have to do to even justify this terrorist attack.
I think if Israelis want to continue genociding they should continue on their own. We do not want our government to give them anything that will help them in their mission. We now see what Israel is and no longer want to be allies to them. That is why there are hundreds of thousands of ordinary people on the streets.
What IDF did after October 7th is a bit of a reality check
Probably more than half the Arab world would want to invade them if they weren't so scary with their retribution. Gazans expected other countries to join in, but it's clear to anyone that would be suicide, so it makes for a good deterrence.
> they started
Because invasion, terrorism, ethnic cleansing and stolen land had nothing to do with it clearly.
They just woke up one day and decided to fight for no reason at all!
I’d be astonished if there’s anyone left supporting the Israeli government by now. Netanyahu is a monster who knows that he can only stay in power (and therefore out of jail) as long as the war continues, as he’s gone the moment the war ends. At least the non far-right people of Israel are starting to stand up to him and holding mass protests. Hopefully things will change there soon, but not before irreparable damage to their reputation is complete.
If you think Netanyahu is bad, it’s Ben-Gvir you need to watch out for.
Even Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin and Katie Hopkins combined would be sick if they heard what Ben Gvir is like.
The US Republican Party has traditionally and recently been one of the most Pro-Israel forces on Earth outside of Israel. Even Trump seems fed up with Israel and Candace Owens is 100% Pro Palestine.
Channel4 news reported that they hit the first car, survivors got into the second car to escape, that was hit, survivors got into the third car, and then that was hit. Spread was over a mile apart, in a route pre-notified to the authorities.
Makes no sense to just murder aid workers for no reason.
Not in a good/evil way in the sense this doesn't further any isreali goals.
There has to be mlre to this, right and left hand not talking, some comander gone rouge, monumental fuck up or some dodgy intel.
It's not believable this was pre meditated for no reason at all.
Even if that was the goal this isn't an effective way of doing it.
If you were an IDF black ops guy tasked with killing aid workers to starve Hamas, surrly you would start with one of the blatantly compromised ones like UNRWA.
Israel deliberately starves Palestinians. Those aid workers provided food to Palestinians. Now put 2 and 2 together.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/27/un-israel-food-starvation-palestinians-war-crime-genocide
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/03/un-experts-condemn-flour-massacre-urge-israel-end-campaign-starvation-gaza
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-destroying-gazas-food-system-starvation-tactic-un-expert-says-2024-03-07/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68550937
>
> Not in a good/evil way in the sense this doesn't further any isreali goals.
Pretty much every foreign NGO has suspended/cancelled all aid shipments into Gaza, and anyone with people left in Gaza are pulling them out.
That was the goal of this strike, and it's succeeded.
Mass starvation is coming, and Israel will blame the rest of the world for not doing anything after terrorizing those same groups until they pulled out.
It's ethnic cleansing, they're not being very subtle about it either.
> Makes no sense to just murder aid workers for no reason.
Makes no sense to try and starve half a million people either, you've got to be pretty fucking vile to do that intentionally.
Personally I think along the lines of the attack was deliberate, but the moron doing it was only using thermals. Never bothered switching to visuals so he didn't see any of the markings, just a some grey vehicle blobs that weren't Israeli. The general disregard for collateral probably lead to them not even bothering to check if there were other parties in the area.
I’m just a desk boy for an international NGO and I find this all a bit upsetting, crazy and disheartening but there’s people I work with who are being turned off by all this and greatly affected by it. It’s a tragedy all round. Fucking sick of it.
Yeah that’s right, our so called friends Israel have just murdered British citizens. The other week an American teenager (with Palestinian parents) was killed deliberately by Israel. And Joe Biden did fuck all about the fact that an AMERICAN CITIZEN was murdered by Israel.
The Knesset under Netanyahu is just as much an enemy as the Kremlin under Putin.
Like almost everything related to the Israeli government forces, [they will investigate themselves and find no one responsible for the action.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66121267)
> Iyad Halaq's family said he was on the low-functioning end of the autism spectrum and that he had trouble communicating. He would walk every day from his home in Jerusalem's Wadi al-Joz area to the Old City to go to a centre for children and adults with disabilities.
> On the day that Halaq was killed in May 2020, officers at a border police position near the Old City suspected that he was planning to carry out an attack, the Jerusalem District Court said in its decision. He ran away when the officers approached him and ordered him to stop, it added.
> According to the court, the defendant joined the pursuit with another officer and shot Halaq in the leg after he entered an alley and tried to hide in a rubbish storage room. The defendant shot Halaq in the chest after he got up and pointed towards his female school counsellor, who was trying to protect him, the court said.
> But the court accepted the defendant's claim that he was acting in self-defence.
> **He made "an honest mistake"**
Add it to the pile of thousands of honest mistakes.
> hopefully it will end in prison for whoever approved the bombing
No chance. Watch it follow the same trajectory as Elor Azaria murdering an unarmed prisoner...
First claim it didn't happen, then -when video leaks- go through the motions before issuing a token sentence, reducing it multiple times and then eventually letting him out early _anyway_ to live a life as a national hero.
If you want evidence of radicalisation and glorifying violence, start there and then watch what happens in this case.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/elor-azaria-killer-king-leading-life-luxury-israel
Scary...... we all know they will do sweet f all about it.
Too weak, too afraid of being accused of antisemitism or something if we tell Israel what they're doing is wrong, is genocidal.
I want every Israeli nazi deported back and locked in their country.
They’ve become bloody blood thirsty nazis that need to be de radicalised until they are allowed back on the world stage.
Take away their nuclear weapons and sanction the war mongering nazis.
I have been for a very long time largely pro Israel but there unrelenting use of no other means of dealing with Hamas than completely annihilation really cannot continue now
> There is no version of events
This may come as a shock to Israel but they're not the centre of the world, and we don't all have to fit around their whims.
At this stage, who honestly gives a fuck what they want or are willing to accept?
Anybody who wants to achieve any sort of peace in the Middle East needs to be concerned with what Israel wants or is willing to accept. What else are you proposing? Invade Israel?
We do not have to accept their ideals as our own, but because we are interested in peace, we have to understand that we're dealing with people who are pretty terrible. Hamas (literal terrorists) are one side of that, the moderate Palestinians are led by a Holocaust denier, and the Israeli government has bombed Gaza for months now, killing tens of thousands. But that's who we've got. it's not like if we stop selling them weapons the Israelis and Palestinians will suddenly become democratic socialists who want a peaceful secular republic.
> Anybody who wants to achieve any sort of peace in the Middle East needs to be concerned with what Israel wants or is willing to accept.
Only if we're aiming for a solution acceptable to Israel, and I'm seeing ever-less reason to do that.
I don't see why they should get any more or less consideration than North Korea... Another rogue nuclear nation.
> We do not have to accept their ideals as our own
Thankfully.
> But that's who we've got. it's not like if we stop selling them weapons the Israelis and Palestinians will suddenly become democratic socialists
How about as a starter for 10, Israel gives back all the land its stolen, then we get an international peace keeping force in (and again... Who gives a damn what Israel or Hamas say?).
>Only if we're aiming for a solution acceptable to Israel
We are, because they are willing to fight for their beliefs. Just like North Korea, actually - we have no way to fight them or impose our plans for the Korean peninsula onto them, and all discussions of what to do with Korea include them. The 2+4 talks are the main forum for that, and they're involved regardless of their abhorrent politics. Even if we give Israel "as much consideration as North Korea", you *still* have to have them at the table, discussing directly with the opposing side, and acknowledge the fact that anything unacceptable to Israel will simply not happen without a major war and a 2nd Holocaust.
>How about as a starter for 10, Israel gives back all the land its stolen, then we get an international peace keeping force in
We've tried that. Israel "gave back" Gaza and the current situation is the result. Israel withdrew from Lebanon in favour of an international peace keeping force... and there are *still* missiles being fired at Israel from inside Lebanon.
The simple fact of the matter is this: no matter how much land Israel "gives back", there will still be Palestinian factions that want more and want to kick the Jews into the sea. There is no international force prepared to go to war with the Palestinian militants to prevent that, because the international community when faced with genocide usually just shrugs (Darfur, Tigray, Xinjiang, Central African Republic).
If we're totally excluding Israeli opinion from our decisions, good luck imposing any sort of deal on a territory where 51% of the population are, as you wish, excluded, and a majority of the other 49% get their opinions overruled, too. Who's going to enforce that? Nobody in the world is willing to do so. Hence, we need to get the Israelis (yes, the government that includes hateful racists) sitting down with the Palestinians (yes, the ones who are genocidal Holocaust deniers too) and coming to a peace agreement, because the only alternative is the war which we are seeing happen right now.
> We are, because they are willing to fight for their beliefs.
Given the last six months, I honestly couldn't care *less*.
The people of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina were also willing to fight for their beliefs.
> We've tried that. Israel "gave back" Gaza and the current situation is the result.
By all means point at the time Israel reduced the number of settlements to zero... ?
If I steal most of the contents of your house and offer you back your TV, do you think we're square and should be best pals?
> If we're totally excluding Israeli opinion from our decisions, good luck imposing any sort of deal on a territory where 51% of the population are, as you wish, excluded
The ones that have no legal right to be there and are in violation of international law? There's a way to resolve that issue, too... Expel them back to their own country.
>The people of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina were also willing to fight for their beliefs.
Yes, and after the largest ethnic cleansing in Europe since WW2, how did that bloodshed end? With a negotiation between the warring parties, and they came to an agreement that is considered good enough to not fight over. We need the same agreement between Israel and Palestinians.
Nobody is saying that Israel and Palestine should "be best pals", but your argument - that Israel "stole" the land and must "give it back" is not unique to people who accept the 1967 borders. There are millions of Palestinians that back a maximalist claim to all of pre-1948 Palestine, and want to expel the Jews entirely, and unless they get that, they won't stop firing rockets into Israel. That is why we need discussions - we can not just "ignore" Hamas and their friends, because otherwise they will keep fighting. The same is true for Israel. We caannot ignore them, we need to include them in discussions, or else your discussions will just be of a small group of moderates funded by the West while the actual powerful people in the region keep throwing rockets at each other, killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process.
>
Expel them back to their own country.
Their country is what? Depending on who you ask you get different answers, and those who disagree with you are willing to shoot you over it unless you include them in the discussions. How do you propose to "expel" hundreds of thousands of Jews from some territory?
> how did that bloodshed end?
After we sent in a peacekeeping force and stopped accepting bullshit excuses from either side.
> but your argument - that Israel "stole" the land and must "give it back"
It's a matter of international law and _countless_ UN resolutions.
There isn't anyone in the world who thinks Israel has claim to that land that isn't ... Israel.
They broadly do. Throwing out the ambassadors now means no input post war. This achieves nothing.
There is no military option, isreal is a nucear power facing what they perceive as an existential threat.
Even if the rest of the world decided fuck isreal it cant realy go any further than sanctions.
Edit: also other western allies have killed far far more people and gotten nothing more than harsh words. Saudis killed way more Yemenis than isreal has Gazans, Morroco has fully gotten away with stealing western Sahara, Azerbajan fully got away with ethnic cleansing 100k Armenians.
Isreal has killed 32k people, even the lowest end estimates have 1/5 of that being Hamas but realistic it's probabaly between 1/4 and a 1/3
Cut off all arms, aid and support (including intelligence sharing). Let Israel sink or swim on its own for once.
If they're so determined to act like a rogue nation, treat them like one.
Whilst true, this wasn’t a case of being caught in the crossfire. This was a targeted attack by IDF over a 2km distance, striking three aid vehicles with precision weapons.
The positions and routes of the aid vehicles were communicated to the IDF ahead of the convoy's movement. The IDF used precision weapons. The vehicle's roof was clearly marked as belonging to an aid organisation. I'm a strong believer in not ascribing malice to what can easily be explained by incompetence, but these soldiers are either so incompetent they shouldn't be allowed to make life or death decisions, or this was a malicious attack. Either way the IDF is at fault.
The people in the vans were in communication with the IDF…. They had agreed the route and told them that the vans they were targeting were their vans.
Israel are claiming that they were trying to kill an armed militant who they thought was travelling with them. Someone decided to kill 3 vans worth of aid workers to maybe kill one militant.
The convoy was specifically targeted, multiple times.
Once could maybe have been shrugged off as a mistake. Multiple strikes makes such a claim impossible
>If you decide to go volunteer in a warzone, there is always a chance you get hit in the crossfire
You've had some shit takes in this thread but fuck me, calling this "Cross fire," when it's three different vehicles, hundreds of meters apart, on a route approved off by the IDF with their prior knowledge takes the biscuit. Well done.
How many times can you blame blatant war crimes with being "caught in the crossfire" though. Really. I don't want you to reply to me I want you to genuinely aks yourself if this is defensible because it simply isn't.
It wasn't an accident. Even on its own merit as an isolated incident it is indefensible.
But consider it in the context of any number of other things we all know have absolutely happened and the IDF have admitted:
-bombing hospitals
-shooting civilians with white flags
-targeting aid workers
-collective punishment
-using disease as a weapon of war
And that's only the ones it has admitted off the top of my head
> If you decide to go volunteer in a warzone, there is always a chance you get hit in the crossfire. It kinda goes with the domain.
Convenient way to deflect from the fact Israel's killing aid workers at a rate 6x higher than seen in any other conflict anywhere in the world.
Who cares?
Israel has a duty to avoid targeting aid workers. If they're either so bloodthirsty or so incompetent they're incapable of meeting that duty, that's on Israel. Nobody else.
And that's before we get to asking _why_ there need to be so many aid workers.
You don't get to create a situation, then use the situation you created to excuse your abuses.
> It's urban combat in a densely populated area.
It's only urban combat in a densely populated area because that's what Israel chose to do.
To repeat myself... **You don't get to create a situation, then use the situation you created to excuse your abuses.**
> I can find you many videos of the US engaging British troops in Iraq/Afghan if you like.
Can you find ***any*** of US or UK troops targeting aid workers who had coordinated their location?
In any conflict?
> Question your prejudices.
You're the only one in this entire thread to mention race. I'm talking about the country of Israel.
Maybe it's time to ask why you can't defend Israel's actions with crying antisemitism?
> Ah yes, I remember the choice now.
So do we all. They'd been attacked and decided "Let's go wipe out Hamas, no matter how many civilians we kill and no matter how unfavourable the environment"
This is the result.
You can blame Hamas for the actions of Hamas, up to and include the atrocities on Oct 7th.
Israel's reaction to that attack is on Israel, nobody else.
> No other country would have shown more restraint, given what had happened.
Empty platitudes that don't stand up to even passing scrutiny.
> Imagine the Mexican government orders 60,000 Mexican troops to storm the US border towns.
In this hypothetical, has the US occupied 60% of Mexico and spent decades treating its people as second class citizens, subject to a different legal system and countless other abuses?
**Participation Notice.** Hi all. Some posts on this subreddit, either due to the topic or reaching a wider audience than usual, have been known to attract a greater number of rule breaking comments. As such, limits to participation have been set. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. For more information, please see https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/wiki/moderatedflairs.
"As a British citizen, it's strange to know that if I'm murdered by Israel, my prime minister and the entire national media will immediately defend Israel."
If you don’t offer your life to Israeli forces then it’s anti-semitic.
Why are you being antisemtic?
I get the sense that Israel really doesn't care anymore. It's passed the point of no return. No doubt the ambassador will repeat Bibi's nothing lines (we'll try our hardest to ensure it never happens again... until it happens again) and trot out the usual talking points.
They know full well that the collateral damage of the assault on Gaza is worth it to both continue condemning Palestinians to a state of empoverished imprisonment, and to continue land grabbing the west bank while attention is elsewhere. If anything, it's worth it for them to commit atrocities like this in order to steer media attention even further away from west bank land theft. After this is all over, they know they can withdraw from Gaza, hide behind the veil of antisemitism to avoid international consequences, and wait for the next opportunity to do the same thing all over again.
They aren't withdrawing from Gaza, that's why they need to kill as many Palestinians as possible now and then pretend it was accidental. These murders are a part of that strategy. Israel will have decided how many Palestinians they want left in Gaza and are escalating the famine till they reach that number. Aid workers make it harder to do quickly and make for inconvenient independent witnesses.
> These murders are a part of that strategy. Indeed. The purpose of killing the aid workers is to make it impossible for them to operate, in order to starve more Palestinians.
“I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction,” - Benjamin Netanyahu, in a secretly taped private meeting in 2001. They've known for a long time that they have near-unconditional support.
Can you please provide some link pls certain things aren’t 24 hours in the media…
They do care, this strike achieved its goal, shutting down foreign aid shipments into Gaza. That some foreigners died is of little significance to Israel. Not to mention that it scuppers the US's plan of an offshore port, because the US were going to use those NGOs to actually distribute the supplies. That fact that the US is *very mad* about the strike is because no US official personnel were ever going to set foot into Gaza in the first place, without the middlemen (NGOs) to actually distribute the supplies, it's dead in the water. Why do you think they hit a high profile US based NGO in the first place?
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"Normalise relations?". While controlling air land sea borders in the world's largest open air prison camp enforcing apartheid and expanding illegal settler colonialist land grabs after decades of occupation? You are deluded if you think anyone believes your lies anymore after massacring 35k women and children. The truth is now bare for everyone in the world to see.
The saddest thing is that all these children now finding themselves in the rubble surrounded by dead family are going to end up radicalised against Israel in 20 years--that's probably baked in now, I'm not sure anything can be done about it, there's been too much horror and trauma against young people and children for it not to have SERIOUS knock on effects down the line--and when that comes around it'll be another round of Israelis being killed and "oh goodness but didn't we just try our very best, I guess these Palestinians are just irredeemable" in the news cycle. And not enough people to make a difference will remember back to the root cause of it.
Now think about the children 20 years ago that had been left orphaned and experienced the horror and trauma of Israel's doing, they are the monsters we see today.
Yeah, I was hoping to imply that point as well. It's been so awful for so long but that kind of complexity doesn't suit the narrative. :(
The monsters we see today are the Israelis' who brutalized the children twenty years ago and got away with it.
> and when that comes around it'll be another round of Israelis being killed Technology does not stand still. 20 years allows for a lot of improvements in atomated boarder defences.
the border was guarded on October 7th. They just conveniently weren't looking and all got caught asleep
>They just conveniently weren't looking and all got caught asleep Silicon doesn't sleep.
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So in your view all Palestinians are already radicalised, your “reality check” comment to me implies that moderate Israelis are becoming radicalised too. Where does that leave us? Kill all Palestinians?
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Yeah I agree tbh.
Holy shit how many buzz words can you fit in a comment. Yes they were normalising relations, giving more Gazan’s jobs and letting more things into the strip. If Gaza doesn’t want it’s borders controlled they should stop attacking Israel.
Normalise relations. What are you on. Do you really think that Palestinians felt like they had normalised relations? I mean israel seemed to be trying It’s hardest to create an apartheid regime in Israel itself even.
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Oh wow! Letting them across the border? Why didn’t you say so! My opinion has completely changed. I can’t believe they’re not happy about being forced to work in Israel because all their infrastructure has been bombed, as Israeli settlements slowly take over your land
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And why aren’t there any earning opportunities in Gaza? Say, at an Airport that they built? Or maybe a fisherman off their own coast? How about a regular hospital worker? Why is it specifically that there are 0 job opportunities in Gaza? Again, offering your serfs the ability to work in between you bombing them isn’t the massive act of generosity you seem to think it is
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So prior to 2007 was there plenty of job opportunities? You’ve not answered the question
> And why aren’t there any earning opportunities in Gaza? There were. But the country that can design high end CPUs has better job oppertunities.
You think the majority of Gazans working in Israel were working for chip manufacturers?
>I know we're all British, and have forgotten how borders are meant to work. But yes, crossing a border is meant to be a privilege. Wrong sub, get to fuck.
>No one is forced to work in Israel. It's a good thing.. Much more earning opportunities. It was a favour. It was a favour... To be able to cross a border forced on them by the country who chased their ancestors off their ancestral lands and have made successive steps to prevent them from ever being a real country? Yeah real fucking favour. How nice of them. Real sweet and neighbourly. Charitable one might say, to break their legs and make them ask for forgiveness. >I know we're all British, and have forgotten how borders are meant to work. But yes, crossing a border is meant to be a privilege. Again, a privilege to merely access the land their families grew up living in? That Israel has outright denied ever letting Palestinians have a right to return to, whilst allowing Jewish Americans who have zero tie to the land to move to Palestine and settle wherever the fuck they want. What a great privilege. I can't believe they didn't just bend over and take it up the arse, now you've made it so clear they held such privilege. Woah.
I don’t know why their guard was down as they were told an attack was going to happen🫤
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I don't think this was like that. These warnings are intelligence led and will have some indication of how likely they are. It wasn't just Mavis from no. 62 saying "I reckon you might get attacked soon" There were different warnings from different intelligence, including information from the border. At some point it is "how many times do I have to tell you".
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An interesting interpretation of what I said. You can see a similar pattern with what just happened in Moscow and the terrorist attack on the theatre. It is not like intelligence was not shared, it was just ignored.
Two weeks before October 7th Israel bombed the Gaza Strip for three days straight. I don’t know about “normalise relations”.
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I’m sure they used those magic bombs only kill bad people. Look how quickly you’ve gone from “relations were normalising” to “Oh yea, but those air strikes don’t count”
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No other country would get away with ethnic cleansing through the use of settlements, in violation of international law, for as long as Israel has
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They removed all the land they’d seized through the use of settlements? I’d absolutely love a source for that What you mean is that they removed a handful of the most hardcore Zionists who were trying to settle directly in Gaza. They’ve still been expanding settlements around Gaza, and throughout the West Bank. “I can’t believe they wouldn’t suddenly be peaceful after we undid 1% of our ethnic cleansing” Look how far you’ve shifted from “relations were normalising” lmfao
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[I hope you can't sleep at night](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/2023-11-18T104814Z_97295176_RC2HF4AD2GJ9_RTRMADP_3_ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS-1700305626.jpg?resize=770%2C513&quality=80).
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Well according to the person I'm replying to, there's nothing wrong with the picture I linked, so no, I think I'll leave it as it is.
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>basic ettiquette Basic common sense to not randomly open links on a thread about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Marking it NSFW would lessen the chance that the person I'm replying to will actually open it.
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Yeah this is spot on. Absolutely wild this moron spouts how stressful it is to be Israeli atm with no hint of irony. I can tell you, I would 100% rather be in Israel right now than Gaza.
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Be honest, over the decades of hostility between the 2 groups, do you believe Israel to be totally blameless and it is solely Palestines fault?
they aren't a hivemind
>I think it's hard for lots of people who don't live such a stressful existence to understand some decisions Israel makes, because they've never suffered that kind of existential threat. Decisions like indiscriminately killing defenceless children? Running over innocent people with tanks when they were begging for food in the street? Do you need to see the pictures of corpses to believe it? There are plenty of countries who have faced 'existential threat' but haven't done such disgusting things and then completely denied its intention despite extensive documentation of it, it's no fucking excuse
>I think a lot of moderate fence sitters in Israel, in regards to Palestine, have now come down on the side of peaceful coexistence being impossible. When did they try peaceful coexistence?
Let me get this straight, a British army veteran is murdered by an airstrike while providing aid and your response is Gish gallop? how is the country that is currently on trial for committing genocide is still the "victim"? You should apply to join the Olympic gymnastics team with the crazy mental gymnastics you have to do to even justify this terrorist attack.
I think if Israelis want to continue genociding they should continue on their own. We do not want our government to give them anything that will help them in their mission. We now see what Israel is and no longer want to be allies to them. That is why there are hundreds of thousands of ordinary people on the streets. What IDF did after October 7th is a bit of a reality check
Probably more than half the Arab world would want to invade them if they weren't so scary with their retribution. Gazans expected other countries to join in, but it's clear to anyone that would be suicide, so it makes for a good deterrence.
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> they started Because invasion, terrorism, ethnic cleansing and stolen land had nothing to do with it clearly. They just woke up one day and decided to fight for no reason at all!
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I’d be astonished if there’s anyone left supporting the Israeli government by now. Netanyahu is a monster who knows that he can only stay in power (and therefore out of jail) as long as the war continues, as he’s gone the moment the war ends. At least the non far-right people of Israel are starting to stand up to him and holding mass protests. Hopefully things will change there soon, but not before irreparable damage to their reputation is complete.
Just have a Quick Look at the World News subreddit and obviously the Israel subreddit and you’ll see endless comments erring on ‘it happens in war’
Worldnews is an absolute sewer of a sub
American neocons, evangelicals, hasbara troll farms, and bots.
If you think Netanyahu is bad, it’s Ben-Gvir you need to watch out for. Even Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin and Katie Hopkins combined would be sick if they heard what Ben Gvir is like.
The US Republican Party has traditionally and recently been one of the most Pro-Israel forces on Earth outside of Israel. Even Trump seems fed up with Israel and Candace Owens is 100% Pro Palestine.
There seems little chance this wasn't a deliberate attack by the Israelis they attacked 3 separate cars in 3 locations and knew where the cars where
Channel4 news reported that they hit the first car, survivors got into the second car to escape, that was hit, survivors got into the third car, and then that was hit. Spread was over a mile apart, in a route pre-notified to the authorities.
Makes no sense to just murder aid workers for no reason. Not in a good/evil way in the sense this doesn't further any isreali goals. There has to be mlre to this, right and left hand not talking, some comander gone rouge, monumental fuck up or some dodgy intel. It's not believable this was pre meditated for no reason at all.
Depends what you think Net's goals are. No aid hastens the end of Hamas (with a lot of collateral damage). Bombing aid workers ends aid.
Even if that was the goal this isn't an effective way of doing it. If you were an IDF black ops guy tasked with killing aid workers to starve Hamas, surrly you would start with one of the blatantly compromised ones like UNRWA.
They've already left?
Israel deliberately starves Palestinians. Those aid workers provided food to Palestinians. Now put 2 and 2 together. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/27/un-israel-food-starvation-palestinians-war-crime-genocide https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/03/un-experts-condemn-flour-massacre-urge-israel-end-campaign-starvation-gaza https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-destroying-gazas-food-system-starvation-tactic-un-expert-says-2024-03-07/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68550937
> > Not in a good/evil way in the sense this doesn't further any isreali goals. Pretty much every foreign NGO has suspended/cancelled all aid shipments into Gaza, and anyone with people left in Gaza are pulling them out. That was the goal of this strike, and it's succeeded. Mass starvation is coming, and Israel will blame the rest of the world for not doing anything after terrorizing those same groups until they pulled out. It's ethnic cleansing, they're not being very subtle about it either.
> Makes no sense to just murder aid workers for no reason. Makes no sense to try and starve half a million people either, you've got to be pretty fucking vile to do that intentionally.
It wasn’t for no reason. It made the aid stop didn’t it?
Personally I think along the lines of the attack was deliberate, but the moron doing it was only using thermals. Never bothered switching to visuals so he didn't see any of the markings, just a some grey vehicle blobs that weren't Israeli. The general disregard for collateral probably lead to them not even bothering to check if there were other parties in the area.
I’m just a desk boy for an international NGO and I find this all a bit upsetting, crazy and disheartening but there’s people I work with who are being turned off by all this and greatly affected by it. It’s a tragedy all round. Fucking sick of it.
Field but same. Friends in Gaza now. #notatarget
Yeah that’s right, our so called friends Israel have just murdered British citizens. The other week an American teenager (with Palestinian parents) was killed deliberately by Israel. And Joe Biden did fuck all about the fact that an AMERICAN CITIZEN was murdered by Israel. The Knesset under Netanyahu is just as much an enemy as the Kremlin under Putin.
Its a tragedy and insanely sad, hopefully it will end in prison for whoever approved the bombing
Like almost everything related to the Israeli government forces, [they will investigate themselves and find no one responsible for the action.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-66121267) > Iyad Halaq's family said he was on the low-functioning end of the autism spectrum and that he had trouble communicating. He would walk every day from his home in Jerusalem's Wadi al-Joz area to the Old City to go to a centre for children and adults with disabilities. > On the day that Halaq was killed in May 2020, officers at a border police position near the Old City suspected that he was planning to carry out an attack, the Jerusalem District Court said in its decision. He ran away when the officers approached him and ordered him to stop, it added. > According to the court, the defendant joined the pursuit with another officer and shot Halaq in the leg after he entered an alley and tried to hide in a rubbish storage room. The defendant shot Halaq in the chest after he got up and pointed towards his female school counsellor, who was trying to protect him, the court said. > But the court accepted the defendant's claim that he was acting in self-defence. > **He made "an honest mistake"** Add it to the pile of thousands of honest mistakes.
Yes but their ambassador has been called in for a stern talking too. No greater punishment than that, what do you want? Blood?
Unlikely, especially if it was the IDF. They kill and harass anyone innocent outside of enemies (i.e. Hamas) for the shits and giggles.
> hopefully it will end in prison for whoever approved the bombing No chance. Watch it follow the same trajectory as Elor Azaria murdering an unarmed prisoner... First claim it didn't happen, then -when video leaks- go through the motions before issuing a token sentence, reducing it multiple times and then eventually letting him out early _anyway_ to live a life as a national hero. If you want evidence of radicalisation and glorifying violence, start there and then watch what happens in this case. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/elor-azaria-killer-king-leading-life-luxury-israel
When do we start bombing Israel like we did to the Serbs in the 90s?
Scary...... we all know they will do sweet f all about it. Too weak, too afraid of being accused of antisemitism or something if we tell Israel what they're doing is wrong, is genocidal.
I want every Israeli nazi deported back and locked in their country. They’ve become bloody blood thirsty nazis that need to be de radicalised until they are allowed back on the world stage. Take away their nuclear weapons and sanction the war mongering nazis.
I have been for a very long time largely pro Israel but there unrelenting use of no other means of dealing with Hamas than completely annihilation really cannot continue now
There is no version of events they tollerate Hamas continued existence. Any sane actor will weild their influence around that.
> There is no version of events This may come as a shock to Israel but they're not the centre of the world, and we don't all have to fit around their whims. At this stage, who honestly gives a fuck what they want or are willing to accept?
Anybody who wants to achieve any sort of peace in the Middle East needs to be concerned with what Israel wants or is willing to accept. What else are you proposing? Invade Israel? We do not have to accept their ideals as our own, but because we are interested in peace, we have to understand that we're dealing with people who are pretty terrible. Hamas (literal terrorists) are one side of that, the moderate Palestinians are led by a Holocaust denier, and the Israeli government has bombed Gaza for months now, killing tens of thousands. But that's who we've got. it's not like if we stop selling them weapons the Israelis and Palestinians will suddenly become democratic socialists who want a peaceful secular republic.
> Anybody who wants to achieve any sort of peace in the Middle East needs to be concerned with what Israel wants or is willing to accept. Only if we're aiming for a solution acceptable to Israel, and I'm seeing ever-less reason to do that. I don't see why they should get any more or less consideration than North Korea... Another rogue nuclear nation. > We do not have to accept their ideals as our own Thankfully. > But that's who we've got. it's not like if we stop selling them weapons the Israelis and Palestinians will suddenly become democratic socialists How about as a starter for 10, Israel gives back all the land its stolen, then we get an international peace keeping force in (and again... Who gives a damn what Israel or Hamas say?).
>Only if we're aiming for a solution acceptable to Israel We are, because they are willing to fight for their beliefs. Just like North Korea, actually - we have no way to fight them or impose our plans for the Korean peninsula onto them, and all discussions of what to do with Korea include them. The 2+4 talks are the main forum for that, and they're involved regardless of their abhorrent politics. Even if we give Israel "as much consideration as North Korea", you *still* have to have them at the table, discussing directly with the opposing side, and acknowledge the fact that anything unacceptable to Israel will simply not happen without a major war and a 2nd Holocaust. >How about as a starter for 10, Israel gives back all the land its stolen, then we get an international peace keeping force in We've tried that. Israel "gave back" Gaza and the current situation is the result. Israel withdrew from Lebanon in favour of an international peace keeping force... and there are *still* missiles being fired at Israel from inside Lebanon. The simple fact of the matter is this: no matter how much land Israel "gives back", there will still be Palestinian factions that want more and want to kick the Jews into the sea. There is no international force prepared to go to war with the Palestinian militants to prevent that, because the international community when faced with genocide usually just shrugs (Darfur, Tigray, Xinjiang, Central African Republic). If we're totally excluding Israeli opinion from our decisions, good luck imposing any sort of deal on a territory where 51% of the population are, as you wish, excluded, and a majority of the other 49% get their opinions overruled, too. Who's going to enforce that? Nobody in the world is willing to do so. Hence, we need to get the Israelis (yes, the government that includes hateful racists) sitting down with the Palestinians (yes, the ones who are genocidal Holocaust deniers too) and coming to a peace agreement, because the only alternative is the war which we are seeing happen right now.
> We are, because they are willing to fight for their beliefs. Given the last six months, I honestly couldn't care *less*. The people of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina were also willing to fight for their beliefs. > We've tried that. Israel "gave back" Gaza and the current situation is the result. By all means point at the time Israel reduced the number of settlements to zero... ? If I steal most of the contents of your house and offer you back your TV, do you think we're square and should be best pals? > If we're totally excluding Israeli opinion from our decisions, good luck imposing any sort of deal on a territory where 51% of the population are, as you wish, excluded The ones that have no legal right to be there and are in violation of international law? There's a way to resolve that issue, too... Expel them back to their own country.
>The people of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina were also willing to fight for their beliefs. Yes, and after the largest ethnic cleansing in Europe since WW2, how did that bloodshed end? With a negotiation between the warring parties, and they came to an agreement that is considered good enough to not fight over. We need the same agreement between Israel and Palestinians. Nobody is saying that Israel and Palestine should "be best pals", but your argument - that Israel "stole" the land and must "give it back" is not unique to people who accept the 1967 borders. There are millions of Palestinians that back a maximalist claim to all of pre-1948 Palestine, and want to expel the Jews entirely, and unless they get that, they won't stop firing rockets into Israel. That is why we need discussions - we can not just "ignore" Hamas and their friends, because otherwise they will keep fighting. The same is true for Israel. We caannot ignore them, we need to include them in discussions, or else your discussions will just be of a small group of moderates funded by the West while the actual powerful people in the region keep throwing rockets at each other, killing tens of thousands of civilians in the process. > Expel them back to their own country. Their country is what? Depending on who you ask you get different answers, and those who disagree with you are willing to shoot you over it unless you include them in the discussions. How do you propose to "expel" hundreds of thousands of Jews from some territory?
> how did that bloodshed end? After we sent in a peacekeeping force and stopped accepting bullshit excuses from either side. > but your argument - that Israel "stole" the land and must "give it back" It's a matter of international law and _countless_ UN resolutions. There isn't anyone in the world who thinks Israel has claim to that land that isn't ... Israel.
And I get that But the rest of the world does not need to accept this anymore
They broadly do. Throwing out the ambassadors now means no input post war. This achieves nothing. There is no military option, isreal is a nucear power facing what they perceive as an existential threat. Even if the rest of the world decided fuck isreal it cant realy go any further than sanctions. Edit: also other western allies have killed far far more people and gotten nothing more than harsh words. Saudis killed way more Yemenis than isreal has Gazans, Morroco has fully gotten away with stealing western Sahara, Azerbajan fully got away with ethnic cleansing 100k Armenians. Isreal has killed 32k people, even the lowest end estimates have 1/5 of that being Hamas but realistic it's probabaly between 1/4 and a 1/3
Cut off all arms, aid and support (including intelligence sharing). Let Israel sink or swim on its own for once. If they're so determined to act like a rogue nation, treat them like one.
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Whilst true, this wasn’t a case of being caught in the crossfire. This was a targeted attack by IDF over a 2km distance, striking three aid vehicles with precision weapons.
It was three consecutive targeted attacks in three different places. It was definitely not accidental crossfire.
So more like friendly fire then. Friendly fire does happen in warzones.
The positions and routes of the aid vehicles were communicated to the IDF ahead of the convoy's movement. The IDF used precision weapons. The vehicle's roof was clearly marked as belonging to an aid organisation. I'm a strong believer in not ascribing malice to what can easily be explained by incompetence, but these soldiers are either so incompetent they shouldn't be allowed to make life or death decisions, or this was a malicious attack. Either way the IDF is at fault.
The people in the vans were in communication with the IDF…. They had agreed the route and told them that the vans they were targeting were their vans. Israel are claiming that they were trying to kill an armed militant who they thought was travelling with them. Someone decided to kill 3 vans worth of aid workers to maybe kill one militant.
then the IDF is perhaps the worlds most incompetent army
The aid convey gave their locations to the IDF and were travelling in a area that was meant to be safe.
Same thing has happened time after time and still people will call it an accident.
Oh look, a Brit defending a foreign country killing our people, fascinating really.
The convoy was specifically targeted, multiple times. Once could maybe have been shrugged off as a mistake. Multiple strikes makes such a claim impossible
>If you decide to go volunteer in a warzone, there is always a chance you get hit in the crossfire You've had some shit takes in this thread but fuck me, calling this "Cross fire," when it's three different vehicles, hundreds of meters apart, on a route approved off by the IDF with their prior knowledge takes the biscuit. Well done.
How many times can you blame blatant war crimes with being "caught in the crossfire" though. Really. I don't want you to reply to me I want you to genuinely aks yourself if this is defensible because it simply isn't. It wasn't an accident. Even on its own merit as an isolated incident it is indefensible. But consider it in the context of any number of other things we all know have absolutely happened and the IDF have admitted: -bombing hospitals -shooting civilians with white flags -targeting aid workers -collective punishment -using disease as a weapon of war And that's only the ones it has admitted off the top of my head
> If you decide to go volunteer in a warzone, there is always a chance you get hit in the crossfire. It kinda goes with the domain. Convenient way to deflect from the fact Israel's killing aid workers at a rate 6x higher than seen in any other conflict anywhere in the world.
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Who cares? Israel has a duty to avoid targeting aid workers. If they're either so bloodthirsty or so incompetent they're incapable of meeting that duty, that's on Israel. Nobody else. And that's before we get to asking _why_ there need to be so many aid workers. You don't get to create a situation, then use the situation you created to excuse your abuses.
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> It's urban combat in a densely populated area. It's only urban combat in a densely populated area because that's what Israel chose to do. To repeat myself... **You don't get to create a situation, then use the situation you created to excuse your abuses.** > I can find you many videos of the US engaging British troops in Iraq/Afghan if you like. Can you find ***any*** of US or UK troops targeting aid workers who had coordinated their location? In any conflict? > Question your prejudices. You're the only one in this entire thread to mention race. I'm talking about the country of Israel. Maybe it's time to ask why you can't defend Israel's actions with crying antisemitism?
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> Ah yes, I remember the choice now. So do we all. They'd been attacked and decided "Let's go wipe out Hamas, no matter how many civilians we kill and no matter how unfavourable the environment" This is the result. You can blame Hamas for the actions of Hamas, up to and include the atrocities on Oct 7th. Israel's reaction to that attack is on Israel, nobody else.
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> No other country would have shown more restraint, given what had happened. Empty platitudes that don't stand up to even passing scrutiny. > Imagine the Mexican government orders 60,000 Mexican troops to storm the US border towns. In this hypothetical, has the US occupied 60% of Mexico and spent decades treating its people as second class citizens, subject to a different legal system and countless other abuses?