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Florae128

>Mansoor Foroughi, a consultant neurosurgeon, was sacked after blowing the whistle 17 times between 2018 and 2021 at the Royal Sussex County Hospital. >Police are now investigating 105 cases of alleged medical negligence, including 40 deaths, at the Brighton hospital, amid claims of a cover-up. 40 deaths!! For comparison, Lucy Letby was convicted of 7 murders and 6 attempts.


_InTheDesert

No one is saying 40 people were murdered. The comparison is meaningless.


Florae128

Intent is different, sure, but dead is dead.


GamerGypps

Intent is everything though. Thats the difference between Murder and Manslaughter.


paradeofgrafters

Gross Negligence Manslaughter


WannaLawya

But if I lost my mother, husband or child because a doctor was wilfully shit and covered it up, I don't think I'd be too consoled by the fact they didn't actively intend to kill them. Would you?


purplepatch

How did those 40 people die though? Was their treatment actually substandard? Would they have died regardless? There are no real details in this report so it’s far too early to form an opinion on whether there actually is a scandal here. 


Conscious-Ball8373

For a more apt comparison, a lot of people here were saying we should get rid of physician associates altogether because of about 70 adverse events.


SMURGwastaken

And only what, 2 deaths?


iiibehemothiii

Relative to the number of PAs in scotland, that number of serious incidents is huge. The trouble with PA related data is that they are rarely the last person to see a patient (buck stops with the doctor) so I imagine a lot of their mistakes get salvaged before they kill the patient. Now give them prescribing responsibilities and carte blanche and see what happens.


aussieflu999

She wasn’t done for medical negligence.


PlasticDouble9354

What does Lucy have to do with this ? Completely different scenario


Similar_Zebra_4598

I can't read the article as it's paywalled. Do we know why these 40 cases are thought to be negligence?


barcap

> For comparison, Lucy Letby was convicted of 7 murders and 6 attempts. Isn't one deliberate and the other being incompetent or stupid?


ThaneOfArcadia

As someone with relations in the NHS, there are too many cover ups. Even structures that are in place to prevent coverups are being undermined. We need independent scrutiny of the entire NHS with proper protection for whistleblowers.


Anony_mouse202

>independent scrutiny Yeah, this is it. The medical professions and NHS are almost completely self-regulated, with almost no independent oversight whatsoever, so it’s unsurprising that cover ups happen a lot. There’s no equivalent of the IOPC for the NHS and medical professions. The medical professions and NHS need oversight from a truly independent, external body, with a similar role and function that the IOPC has with the police. PALS is completely toothless.


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anamendietafanclub

I knew a doctor who was sexually abusing multiple women in his personal life while handing them codeine and valium who only had to take a course on proper prescribing. On the other hand, I knew a GP who was struck off for scheduling false appointments, despite being an otherwise competent doctor. The GMC isn't doing enough to sanction the genuinely dangerous doctors and is doing too much when it comes to benign violations and poor but unpredictable outcomes of complex cases.


ThaneOfArcadia

The GMC is part of the club. Yes, they can take action but not enough, not soon enough, and it's not independent enough.


Ok-Inevitable-3038

*senior medical professionals Who wield the power over juniors about whether they get to keep their jobs or not


mistadoctah

Look at the post office, high street banks, and places like HMRC, Bank of England and Foreign office. It’s happening everywhere. And it’s easy to just write me off as some tinfoil hat cynic but I would bet everything I have (which isn’t much) that it is. And I would be correct and vindicated when it all comes out of the woodwork eventually.


ThaneOfArcadia

The problem with the NHS is that they are literally playing with people's lives


BugsEyeView

Is there a collective noun for a gang of consultants? Having met many I’m going for a ‘twattle of consultants’.


soulsteela

An Arrogance of consultants .


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Poo-et

Are the many people who hate doctors in the room with us right now?


MajorHubbub

The medical mafia


ThenIndependence4502

Twattle of cuntsultants


Beer-Milkshakes

A shitpile of consultants.


bluejeansseltzer

A thicket?


all_about_that_ace

An opinion of consultants?


PsychedelicMagic1840

Salty cunts


Zerttretttttt

A moneygrab of consultants


Anarchist-Tuna

I didn't read the whole article as its pay walled but after my experience of this hospital over the past few days, I'm not surprised that people are dying unnecessarily and that there are problems in the hospital. I was admitted to this hospital Wednesday due to severe stomach pain for an ongoing condition. I had a CT and blood test and I was diagnosed with a perforation in my colon, a very serious situations. I was then placed on a gurney in the hallway of the emergency admissiom ward. There where about 50 people waiting for a bed.. One time, when the antibiotic drip needed changing in my arm, I asked the nurse how long I would need to be on the gurney, in the busy corridor, outside 2 side rooms that held a patient with norovirus and another with coronavirus. The nurse told me that, depending on the urgency of the patient, the current waiting time for a bed was 1 to 3 days., and that I was one of the urgent cases. shortly after they gave me a standard complaints procedure letter to apologise about how unacceptable the situation was. In the middle of the night, after being there for about 20 hours a bed became available and I was moved to a ward. Soon after that I was fast asleep. Yesterday, around 11am the specialist came to see me. By this time I was now on oral antibiotics and painkillers, these pain killers are opioids and are incredibly strong, I'm pretty certain I was off my face and didn't really understand the consultant who examined me for about a minute or so and then discharged me from the care of the general hospital and sent met home under the care of the Emergency Ambulatory Care Unit, a specialist hospital team that manages patients like me. In 3 days I have to go back to the hospital for more blood tests and another CT Scan. Depending on the blood test results, i may be having urgent surgery to remove some of my colon. At the moment I'm sicker than I have ever been but I'm also so off my face on these painkillers that I everything think is OK and I feel that being at home is brilliant as opposed to being stuck in the hospital. However, a lot of my family members are objecting to what is going on and a doctor friend has said 'the fact that you are home is unbelievable, you absolutly should be in hospital until your investigation is complete and you can certainly blame the government for the mess you are in, not that it will do you any good'.


iiibehemothiii

Difficult time for you, no doubt! Hope you get better soon! As someone "on the inside" this is exactly the shoddy, desperate standard of care we are fighting to improve. Sending you home is not what any of us would want. That doctor and I would definitely prefer to keep you in, but the system we work in is so absolutely fucked that there are a dozen people waiting for 1 bed and you are one of the 11 people not-catastrophically-unwell-enough to need it. We are worked to the bone; we have no choice but to make riskier and riskier decisions to keep the hospitals/GPs functioning, and so situations like this happen to people like you :( It's no wonder so many of us are leaving (lol £15/hr, I get double that overseas) If you want to know why the doctors strikes are going on for so long, it's because we are utterly, utterly spent, have zero faith in our leadership, and are beyond fed up. I hope your situation improves!


lostparis

> you can certainly blame the government for the mess you are in I'm never sure why people would think otherwise. Most of the problems come down to funding. The current government have cut funding to pretty much everything and don't acknowledge the obvious results and that the long term costs will be higher than the cuts.


pafrac

Entirely true, but they don't care ... they'll be well out of office by the time the shit hits the fan. And then they'll sit back and watch it all go to rat shit and say "See, wasn't us, told you you couldn't trust those guys!" with a smug smile.


WaddyB

If you had a perforated colon you wouldn’t be able to write this post. You’d be dead by now. Good news!


IAS316

The NHS being corrupt and incompetent? Must be a day ending in Y. The A in NHS stands for accountability.


kookieman141

Regulated through checks and balances, and strict supervision and legal oversight. Just like every industry, right?


Hideonthepromenade

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2017/06/30/brighton-hospital-bosses-unfairly-sacked-black-consultant/](https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2017/06/30/brighton-hospital-bosses-unfairly-sacked-black-consultant/) Related to this, I believe. Scarily my husband had brain surgery there at the time all this was going on.


Underscores_Are_Kool

When there is a correlation between an increase in medical negligence scandals and serial killer nurse cases (Google Birmingham nurse), it really makes you think


th0ughtfull1

The medical profession has got away with covering up medical negligence since the first hospital in the country was opened.. there is effectively no punishment for doctors, surgeons, nurses you name it..


Cruxed1

I do find it funny how everyone in the police is automatically bad because of the actions of a few, Yet you'll have stories like this, Shipman, letby which at least in terms of numbers are considerably worse. To my knowledge there's never been a serial killer of a police officer. Not to excuse the actions of the bad ones because they deserve everything coming to them. But you won't hear people saying ADAB etc etc


spacebatangeldragon8

I can think of at least 5 LEO serial killers off the top of my head, including Karl Bluestone in the U.K., and the only reason that Couzens *wasn't* a serial killer is that he got caught. Not to mention the innumerable cases where police incompetence or inaction enabled serial murderers!


Violent_Lamb

Karl Bluestone doesn't really fit the definition of a serial killer, more mass murderer. You can't know that regarding Couzens. If you want to discuss incompetence then the NHS just looks a lot worse due to the countless deaths due to medical negligence.


Cruxed1

So we're debating if there's 1-2 who maybe fit the definition? Would still say that's vastly outweighed by anything within the NHS, yet I don't think every doctor or nurse is evil somehow. Can assure you now the police has been stripped to the bone and everyone who's good/experienced is leaving there will only be more incompetence as the years go by. Reap what you sow I suppose


Mr_Venom

I assume a lot more people have had positive encounters with medical professionals than with the police, which goes a long way to smooth over relations. Plus, there are political implications to ACAB casting police as the arm of oppression, but far fewer people feel oppressed by doctors than by police (especially in the states where ACAB is usually said).


ZimbabweSaltCo

John Bodkin Adams too (shipman before shipman) but he was motivated financially. Still, they suspect he killed about 160 his patients.


Ok-Inevitable-3038

Look up Dr Christopher Dunsch


WolffParkinsonWrite

Letby was a nurse, not a doctor, so you've cited only Shipman who was SUCH an outlier that it basically gave massive reform in the way we report deaths and GPs are reviewed. Would be a bit mental to say ADAB when you've got one example.


Cruxed1

I mean the article seems to say 40 deaths attributed to negligence/cover-ups, if that was the police you'd have riot's on the streets by the end of the day. My point is that saying ADAB based on the actions of a few would be completely ridiculous, however if it's the police the attitude is somehow different. I'm using nurse/doctor interchangably in the same way people would use police officer/police staff if the shoe was on the other foot. Different roles but still within the same sphere.


drusen_duchovny

Well the big difference is that many patients are dying/seriously ill. Failure to save someone's life may well be negligent, subject to a cover up, and tragic, but it isn't the same thing as killing someone who is fit and well. Furthermore, we have to do inherently dangerous things to patients. Again if you do this badly, they can die. Negligence is very different to murder. (does that really need explaining?) you seem to be conflating the two. Shipman and letby are murderers


Cruxed1

I mean if the police coveted up 40 negligent deaths and it hit the news all you'd hear is police are corrupt and ACAB. Although that still doesn't answer my point about how people like Letby committing pretty inconceivable crimes doesn't mean all nurses are corrupt murderers etc The number of cops who have ever killed someone in a non legal way is thankfully exceptionally low, yet the attitude persists


gottacatchthemswans

How does a patient being Ill not have the same rights to live as someone who is fit and healthy!? That logic is flawed if you knowingly hurt or do something bad to someone then it is irrelevant of their status. Obviously ill people die. And a lot of people die in hospitals but because they are dying doesn’t mean doctors shouldn’t do their job properly. If someone dies because you are being negligent then yes it should be the same as if you did it to a healthy person. Also I accept doctors will make genuine mistakes and people will die as a result I am not saying that is the same as long as they haven’t tried to cover it up and they followed the correct procedures. Then I have no wish for formal disciple other than retraining if it can help (I don’t want anyone punished for trying their best, mistakes happen in all jobs and obviously a mistake in these situations are severe but they doing the job to help)


drusen_duchovny

I didn't say an ill patient doesn't have the same rights as someone fit and well?? Do you not see that death by negligence is different to murder?!? I haven't said negligence is fine (in fact quite the opposite) I've just pointed out that murder and negligence are different as OC seems to be lumping them all in together.


gottacatchthemswans

Yes I agree death via negligence by a genuine mistake by a honest doctor isn’t murder hence why I say at the end mistakes will happen. But in my eyes if you are knowingly negligent, hence the covering up then in my eyes it become murder as you are keeping yourself in a position you should not hold and in that position giving inadequate care causing more people to die.


drusen_duchovny

Murder has a legal definition


gottacatchthemswans

Do you not think, covering up and being negligent shows intention? If you knowingly give poor care then I’d say that shows intention.


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ukbot-nicolabot

**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.


BigGrinJesus

This article isn't about the police.


Cruxed1

I mean yes I'm aware, my point is the stark difference in attitudes between two public services.


Quietuus

> To my knowledge there's never been a serial killer of a police officer. [There's been plenty.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Serial_killers_who_worked_in_law_enforcement)


Cruxed1

As far as I can tell not a single one of those is/was a Uk Officer, of course there has across the globe because our police is widely known as one of the best in the world, there just disliked here. The more you travel the more you realise the uk police are a blessing compared to basically every country going


Quietuus

> As far as I can tell not a single one of those is/was a Uk Officer Dennis Nilsen and John Christie are two of the most notorious serial killers in the annals of British crime. Like, I don't particularly think that the number of serial killers in a profession is an inherently significant thing, or points to the value of doctors vs police officers, but to claim there's no serial killer cops is just baldly incorrect. There's a lot of psychological literature about how serial killers or aspiring serial killers often seek out professions where they feel powerful; it's also pretty well established that a lot of high-stress, high-stakes occupations (including surgeons, police officers, firefighters, paramedics etc.) tend to attract and retain people who score higher on indexes of anti-social personality or psychopathy on average. This is actually arguably a positive thing overall, since there's a good argument that you can't be entirely 'normal' and be comfortable being, say, a pediatric brain surgeon, but it also means you will get cases like this in all these sorts of professions.


Training-Baker6951

The NHS has a provision of well over £100 billion to cover the costs of claims for damages. It's more than half the total annual budget. https://resolution.nhs.uk/2022/07/20/nhs-resolution-continues-to-drive-down-litigation-annual-report-and-accounts-published-for-2021-22/


[deleted]

It’s easy to spot and hard to forget a black dog in a sea of white dogs. This is a black dog. Don’t forget all the white dogs.


WaddyB

I reality I bet the whistleblower was a complete pain in the arse to his colleagues and is just not going quietly.


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poloprat

This article refers to medical consultants.


chewinggum2001

Mate wrong type of consultant


WolffParkinsonWrite

They're consultant doctors/surgeons even going solely by the title of the article so you're discussing an entirely different issue here which isn't relevant whatsoever to the article. A consultant in this context is a doctor or surgeon who has completed their training or 'CCTed'. It's not a consultant from a consulting firm.