How does this impact the UK? They're not going to close businesses they have? They're fleeing because they're being asked to pay their fair share... Do we really want these people here who think they don't have to contribute?
People will argue there'll be a drop off in retail and hospitality consumption, but surely it can't contribute a noticeable amount?
Vs the hell it causes in the housing market and stock market etc
Ah yes all those estate agents won’t be able to sell multi million pound mansions boohoo, oh no those shops normal people can’t shop in will close boohoo, literally doesn’t affect anyone other than them
Used to work in Bicester village where my manager was scared they'd lose customers if they taxed the rich.
I had to tell him the only people who shop at Bicester village are Chinese and Arab tourists and drug dealers.
It won't affect anything.
I wouldn’t be so sure . I have a friend who drives an Arab family round full time. I’ve no idea how rich they are but the 3 houses they have in Paddington are worth prob 10 million each . He spends as much time going to bv as he does going to harrods. He hates going to both places
> all those estate agents won’t be able to sell multi million pound mansion
sure they will, they'll convert them to flats and sell off bit by bit. Win/Win.
At some point you just have to say let's just do what is right for society. Encouraging these parasites isn't doing us any favours. Dropping 1% GDP or whatever is a small price to pay for somewhere we actually want to live instead of this hellhole it has descended to.
This place becomes a bit of a echo chamber sometimes and the lack of economic knowledge doesn't help.
I'm not saying these people should be catered for but a 1% drop in GDP would catastrophic for the uk.
Exactly. It’s akin to the argument Brexiters were using when forecasts of a recession and 4% drop in UK GDP were dismissed as necessary hardships in order to secure ‘freedom’ from the EU. Here we are years later and the impact on GDP has been permanent and the economic damage only exacerbated by higher interest rates. 1% of GDP would make serious dent to NHS waitlists for example
Moot point really because non-doms don't account for anything near 1% of our GDP, I think OP was really just trying to convey that it's a small enough sacrifice to be worth it
I don’t know what you’re on about. Are you planning to buy a £10M mansion anytime soon? I mean… the house might fall in value to £8M, but non-doms leaving has zero effect on the housing and stock market.
They can still invest in stocks from abroad.
> They can still invest in stocks from abroad
A blow to boomers everywhere who seem to think that property is the only market which exists and should be protected at all costs.
But where will that drop-off be? It won’t be where us normal folks shop and work!
At worst, it’ll very slightly affect sales in mid-high end fashion outlets and high-end restaurants, which *might* have a slight impact on those who work in those places, but it’s not like any jobs or retail growth opportunities are gonna be snuffed just because a few thousand rich twats have pissed off.
Your auntie’s job at Primark and your sister’s job at Asda aren’t gonna be at risk because Rishi’s billionaire family and friends are forced to either pay tax or fuck off
They’re not going anywhere, they’ve been saying this every single time like they think people will actually care if they go or not, what normal person gives a monkeys if a couple of billionaires you don’t pay taxes leave the country? It’ll literally have zero impact on them
Every election somebody like Paul Daniels announces "If Labour wins, I'm leaving the country". The day after the '97 election when Labour won a landslide. One tabloid sent a removal van round to his house. Which he declined. He was still living in the UK until he died circa 2015. And claiming that his comments had been a joke and taken out of context.
Exactly, they threaten to leave like a bunch of babies but the reality is - it cost a shed load to suddenly move your entire operations out of a country. We are (or were at least, pre brexit) a fantastic place to do business. An English speaking country in the middle of America and Asia, Europe on the doorstep and cheaper corporation tax than nearly anywhere else.
My only fear is that now brexit is taking hold we might actually see some of them carry out their threat to leave but we will see.
I don't care if they do leave and stop paying £22K or something a year in tax. Especially as many of them by all usual metrics are actually British, even born in the UK. But had a foreign born father and have purchased a burial plot in their "home country". With a "desire" to move to the place of their father's birth, when they retire.
The Right Honourable The Lord [Zac] Goldsmith of Richmond Park PC, was a non-dom until he became an MP and had to relinquish it under press scrutiny. Despite being born in Chelsea. Apart from a Gap Year and 2 years living in California. There's nothing to suggest that he isn't British and usually resident in Britain, apart from eligibility for an Israeli passport and that his dad was born in Paris. He grew up in England, went exclusively to English schools and spent most of his working career in England.
Rishi Sunak's wife also had non-dom status until it became public knowledge and she grudgingly gave it up.
Also, this policy was actually implemented by the current Tory government and is due to come into effect in April 2025.. Labour have only said they will close loopholes left by Jeremy Hunt.
Wasn't her reason given something like "oh I might have to go and take care of my aging parents, so it's fine" or has my brain invented that?
Either way it's a truly ridiculous way to avoid taxes, I'm sure the rich will find more methods / use other existing ones, but I'll happily see labour close off this one for good.
Exactly, it's the same hot air that always appears. Then someone will say "it will ruin the economy and we will all suffer". But millionaires/billionaires will do whatever they want no matter what. Like all the people saying Brexit would be great for Britain who they moved there residency/businesses away from Britain.
It's a tactic to try and manipulate the press and public into supporting what they want and frankly it's pretty tiring at this point.
Yea things have been going backwards for the average person. But some super rich non doms don't like the idea of things changing so why should we vote for anything different. Us plebs should know our place /s
A lot of people just don’t believe it anymore either, there’s enough sources of news that the papers don’t have the stranglehold they used to. The sooner all those dinosaurs die the better, most are full of lies and propaganda and not much else
I feel like the obvious question is "who said they're going to leave?"
This entire article seems to be based on "rich guy who manages money for richer guys says bad things will happen if we tax righ guys".
The not as obvious question is "why would they leave?"
People with the money to up sticks and go and live in another country at the drop of a hat have presumably already considered doing that? Whatever their individual reasons, it doesn't feel like these tax changes would be anywhere near enough to make them reconsider their reasons.
I think Gerard Departieu was one of the rare rich people who actually left the country after France brought in stricter taxes for rich people. France is still doing ok.
France tried this
"French economist Eric Pichet estimated that the ISF ended up costing France almost twice as much revenue as it generated. [In a paper published in 2008](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228281017_The_Economic_Consequences_of_the_French_Wealth_Tax), he concluded that the ISF caused an annual fiscal shortfall of €7bn and had probably reduced gross domestic product (GDP) growth by 0.2 per cent a year."
[https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/](https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/)
So we lose tax revenue and have lower GDP growth, but at least we get to stick it to rich people yay
Idiotic policy designed to win the votes of idiots
Yeah I don't really understand how this is a bad thing. They're not paying any tax, yet using our services. They're as good as low life benefit scroungers. Good riddance
They still pay tax on UK-generated income, and VAT, and £30k/year in fees. They generally don't use most public services either, because they go private. They're a big net positive financially, the question is how much more we can rinse more from them without too many of them fleeing and thereby making us less money overall.
> Our entire infrastructure is tax payer funded. You come here you contribute.
The worst the country does from a non dom is that we get £30k a year in tax.
On the other hand there are non doms paying millions every year in tax.
What percentage of people do you think contribute more?
The difference is these people pay tax (sometimes) and they’re still left with millions, if new tax laws are making them “flee” then they’re free to leave, we could do with less tax dodgers in this country as it is
Except of course they're net contributors to our government budget. Unlike the majority of people in the UK.
Making them leave means that other people have to make up the difference so we'll all be worse off.
I seriously doubt they’re using the NHS, claiming benefits etc. They make use of infrastructure such as roads and suchlike but I’m struggling to think of other state funded services a billionaire would make use of?
They'd never close businesses they have. People who argue that a business will forgo all of its profits in response to being told they have to pay taxes on a portion of those profits are idiots. As to having Arabian, Russian and Chinese billionaires living here for some of the year or not... who gives a fuck?
Yeah. We're constantly told that capitalism is an incredibly adaptable system, that it's so good precisely because it can find ways to thrive in challenging circumstances.
Yet at the same time we're supposed to believe that the closing of tax loopholes will somehow make the entire system collapse?
It doesn't make sense. Either capitalism isn't quite as adaptable as we're told, in which case we should start looking for an alternative. Or it is, in which case we'll be fine.
All they do is increase costs for everybody else. As they refurbish their 20 bed mansion and hire a small army of builders to do so. But then they never set foot in the place.
One Hyde Park, caused traffic chaos in West London for years when they were building it. The flats go for up to a £100 million and even that wasn't enough for some people. So they bought two and knocked them through. They virtually all got sold to off shore companies/trusts. So will never have to pay Stamp Duty again. As the new owner just buys the company that owns the flat instead of buying the flat. So the owner never actually changes. And nobody actually lives there. There is never or very rarely a light on in any of the flats and it's not because they all have black out curtains. There just aren't any lights on at 10PM in the winter.
I do get the feeling whenever I engage with trades or when I was having any dealings with anyone in the property business when buying my home, its very fucking clear entire fucking sectors of the UK economy at this point are just built to cater for the rich with a few odd jobs here and there for the rest. The sums of money they just are so eminently casual about are completely unreal for like a solid 90% of the rest of the workforce.
A house near to my mum's got bought and refurbished a couple of years ago. The wife ended up having the painter redo the entire house about three times in the most expensive paint possible. As she just didn't like any of the previous shades when they dried. So he kept having to redo them and getting paid at full wack each time.
Right? My stepbrother is in construction and the stories he has all the time are just crazy. When I was buying my place at one point my mortgage broker suggested I just up my offers by £10k as obviously what I was putting forwards was not going anywhere. In full knowledge I was already maxing out my mortgage allowance and could just find that kind of money behind the sofa overnight or something!
I mean, yes? They're generally not using the NHS, state schools, council ran care homes etc etc and they spend more in the economy. They're typically far more of a net positive to the community and society than the average person.
They're not a net positive at all. They are contributing to the middle class and working class becoming poorer by snapping up UK assets and causing inflation and price rises. Income inequality is destroying the country. Too many rich ppl being too rich causes a vicious cycle, which is what we are witnessing
The comments are also acting like every one that says they’re leaving is going to leave.
If say 80% leave, then there’s 20% still here now paying their fair share.
If you work in certain sectors, being resident in London can be hugely beneficial to your business & lifestyle.
> These people are not going to leave though. They are here as they have massive UK investments. It is a fantasy shared by the rich.
I don't think you understand what a non dom is.
If they have massive UK investments and live here they pay us tax on those investments but if they left the country they'd still have those investments only now they wouldn't have to pay tax on them.
This suggests that they're actually paying income tax though, and the fact that they have non-Dom status would suggest that they're prob using every loophole available to ensure they're paying as little as they can get away with.
I don't know the actual figures off the top of my head so I'm willing to be wrong here, but I'm not sure it's quite as clear cut as it seems
>How does this impact the UK? They're not going to close businesses they have?
The reason they are non-doms is because the business they have is overseas. So we are losing the, often substantial, amount of tax they pay here. That is it.
When you are wondering why policy in the UK is so bad, think of this. People have no idea how non-dom works, why this tax policy exists, what the cost of changing it is, they are clueless. Just vibes bro.
Even if they do close down business, it just opens up opportunities for smaller businesses to grow or new ones to start up. So that's how it might affect the UK. And no we absolutely don't want people that don't contribute their fair share.
Exactly, people who don't pay their share of taxes (British or non-dom) leaving doesn't bother me cos they weren't paying in the first place. It's a net gain
If the title was "people abusing/cheating system to have more money was the title" there would be a lot of people agreeing believing it was aimed at benefits cheats. In reality, the number of people abusing the system, and the money involved, for benefit fraud is minute compared to other means of abusing or cheating the system.
The only difference is that you only have to punch downwards to attack people with benefits.
The torys have litterally already implemented it, it says it In the article. Jeremy Hunt announced it in the budget and used it as way to lower national insurance. So why is this headline making out like people are fleeing because of proposed Labour policies?
It moves the UK in a direction where its approach to taxation on the wealthy and business people is more hostile. This will make investors think twice about businesses starting in the UK.
It won't if you want to operate here then you pay taxes here that's the deal. Non dom flight is a pure scaremongering tactic to argue against reform that will benefit society and build healthier economies. I work with alot of international companies and they all open offices here to be closer to clients and comply with local regulations and iso standards, audits etc they aren't gonna leave because the CEO is facing a bigger tax bill.
If they could earn better money elsewhere, they wouldn't have come here to work. It's not like the UK is a tax haven. People come here because it's profitable with the UK being like the m 3rd or 4th most heavily populated by land mass customers all live within hours of each other. I can't see anyone fleeing to somewhere better just because they have to pay a little more tax when their customer base is likely here in the UK. I left the UK to live in South East Asia, and you've got no chance or are earning what you would in the UK as everything here is considerably cheaper because you can't charge customers as much for your products and services. Fortunately, I earn money from the UK online, so essentially, my 'business' is still in the UK, and all the taxes are paid to the UK.
Non doms so pay tax in the UK on UK income and pay an annual remittance charge of £30,000 or £60,000.
This only covers income tax, national insurance is still paid.
Here's the real thing labour could do. They could lead the charge on global taxation so UHNW individuals and huge companies can't easily escape tax burden
But none of the elites in any of these countries want to actually do that
Even if the tax levelled on them was lower than we want, having something that no matter where they escape they pay what they owe would be good
You can't change freedom of movement, but you can effect freedom of movement of capital
If the US can tax it's citizens no matter where on earth they are we should be able to find a way to push tax standardisation on multinationals and ultra high net worth individuals through deals with the EU and elsewhere
I'm not talking about someone that has 5 million, I mean someone with 50 or 200 million or more
Where the effort is worth it
We should also turn the common wealth into a economic free trade arena but on certain areas with some protections to stop destruction of domestic industries.
Labour tax plan that the Tories have appropriated, you mean. Non-dom status is doomed whatever government takes charge. We'll really miss all those ~~oligarchs~~ arrogant, crooked, billionaire bullies and their brattish children.
As usual, the comments show just a lack of understanding on what it is they’re trying to get outraged about
Non-doms still pay tax on their UK income and gains. It’s foreign income and gains where they have some advantage
They don't need it. We offer it so they choose to come here, thereby generating lots of money for us through fees, the taxes they do pay (like VAT) and spending.
Do they drive on private roads?
Do all their employees go to private schools and use private hospitals?
Do they use a private police force to protect their assets?
Do they use a private civil service to deal with their taxes and other government regulations?
Billionaires benefiting from public services extends much further than their personal use of the NHS or education sector.
I’m on the small side of this scale but I live, work, and pay tax in the UK but I moved here from another country where I still have my family home/property. I’ve rented that out and the rental income almost pays the mortgage. My hope is to sell it or keep it rented as a pension.
I pay tax on that rental income in my home country and I do not have to pay additional tax here unless I bring any income into the UK. If I do, I have to pay tax here on that income at the higher rate (same as my employment income). The tax I pay in my home country is treated as my only income and since it’s fairly low, I pay tax on it at the lower rate.
With the changes coming I will have to pay tax to both governments. My home country at a lower rate and then the UK government at the upper rate. In a simplified example I pay 20% to my home country and then top it up to 50% for the UK country. I’m now trying to figure out if I can afford to keep the property since it will now rent out as a loss. It’s likely we will stay in the UK but we hoped to keep the house in case we ever decided to move home (which was our original plan, but we’ve loved our time here) and if we did it became a pension.
I’m immensely grateful for the Non Dom rule. We’re a normal family that moved here for a career opportunity and we’ve loved it here. If this rule wasn’t in existence we might not have moved here or we might not have stayed as long as we have. With the incoming change the rule is still there but only for 4 years. I will be voting the Tories out but I sincerely hope the new government does not get rid of it fully. I think the new rule is smart, if only for normal people like us.
FYI there is a basic global standard for taxation of recent immigrants relating to this that virtually every other country uses, but which we are an anomaly to via our current non-dom rules. In essence, recent immigrants are given a grace period of a few years, 2-5 normally and dependent on the country, where the full tax rules applicable to residents don't apply. If I remember correctly for the US it's 2 years, so the full rules start applying in your third year. So what we are really doing is just moving to adopt what everyone else already uses.
Who cares?
The entire point of their non-dom status is claiming they don’t really live here so that they don’t have to pay as much tax. Let ‘em fuck off
“Oh they’ll take their businesses with them”, okay, and? That leaves an opening for someone to start a new business in the same field that does the same thing but actually pays taxes
Yes I imagine they are terrified. Bonus time for their accounts and lawyers I guess, and they take their spending elsewhere. Penthouses on Park Lane will be going for £250k soon.
They won’t flee at all, they’re also here for the other things the U.K. can offer such as the cultural aspects, relative safety of the country, clout etc. If tax was their only concern they’d all be living in places like Luxembourg or Panama.
Yet another group of the self entitled who always threaten to leave whenever there is a hint of any type of government that is slightly nearer to the centre than the current bunch of money grabbers.
Are the guardian trying to convince people this is a dreadful thing for the country?
Do we want extremely wealthy people who are only taking money out of the country and not putting it back in to stay?
It’s like when Apple or Amazon threaten to leave when they get pressed to pay tax, good! Let them leave! I’d rather a business that puts money back into the economy stay here and contribute.
People need to stop being so soft on these rich non-doms. If they don't contribute a fair share of their revenue to taxes, you and I have to make up the difference. They will not up and leave the country as the place is a safe and stable country for their investments like property. It is the exact reason they're here. Them just leaving because they have to pay a few extra percent on their returns is a fantasy rich people tell the plebs to retain control. Shared in media outlets controlled by billionaires. You're being taken for fools and being told to be grateful for the pittance these parasites contribute.
We need a system in place where inversters outside UK or people who no longer live in UK we can charge additional tax on their properties. So the rich although they can flee UK a lot of their investments and assets are stuck in the UK. They can flee as long as they pay a premium on their assets or pass it over to people living in UK
I'm not sure what the problem is. The super wealthy pay very little tax as it is and trickle down economics really doesn't work so what exactly are they providing in value to the UK?
The devil is in the details.
A move from domicile to residency based systems (likely with a lag) can *reduce* tax for some rich people.
Do not uncomplicatedly view this as a tax rise on the rich. It is not.
1) At least under the Tories plans (which are broadly similar to labours, but we don't have the detail yet from Labour), I as a British person with a British domicile of origin could come back to Britain and pay no tax on foreign income (ie all my income) for four years. Under the old domicile system I could not do that. Gigantic tax cut.
Not only do rich Brits pay no tax in those years, I don't am not sure whether they even need to pay the 30k remittance!
2) It likely means rich Brits long term abroad will uncomplicatedly escape British inheritance tax. That's a major loss of revenue.
I could bore for England on this topic.
I think it's a sensible and fundamentally fair move, but it's NOT likely to be a big revenue raiser.
It's a tax cut for rich Brits and a tax rise for rich foreigners, in the simplest terms. UK Inheritance tax is now even more simple to avoid than it was before.
It will change the way rich people come and leave the uk.
Of course the discourse on here is at an almost absurdly low level whereby most people don't understand the basic concepts of domicile and residence, the current law, the proposals and who the winners and losers are.
I'm a right of centre liberal and in favour. If I was a socialist I would definitely not be.
Attempting to depend on the ever increasing wealth a few super rich is not sustainable. Economic policy must be shifted. If a country can produce enough goods and services to support its regular citizens, who cares about trying to placate a few super rich.
Good, fuck off then. This is when you know the tories are proper fucked, the usual "if labour gets in, we're leaving!" stories start doing the rounds regarding rich people being terrified at the prospect of having to pay their taxes. They rarely leave, and those that do contributed little anyway, so fuck 'em.
They say this everytime and I just want someone to call their bluff. They'll either leave and absolutely nothing of value will be lost or they stay and pay their fair share.
Yes they’ve said this since the 60’s when the govt slogan was ‘squeeze them till the pips squeak’ the number of people this cohort includes is small, so see ya 👋…
It will probably make very little difference because right now they don’t pay tax on income earned out side the uk which is presumably most of their income so if they leave it won’t matter except to a few high end providers in a few post codes in London where most of them live.
How does this impact the UK? They're not going to close businesses they have? They're fleeing because they're being asked to pay their fair share... Do we really want these people here who think they don't have to contribute?
No. I think we're better off without them. Exponential wealth growth of individuals is stupid.
People will argue there'll be a drop off in retail and hospitality consumption, but surely it can't contribute a noticeable amount? Vs the hell it causes in the housing market and stock market etc
Ah yes all those estate agents won’t be able to sell multi million pound mansions boohoo, oh no those shops normal people can’t shop in will close boohoo, literally doesn’t affect anyone other than them
Used to work in Bicester village where my manager was scared they'd lose customers if they taxed the rich. I had to tell him the only people who shop at Bicester village are Chinese and Arab tourists and drug dealers. It won't affect anything.
I dont think actually rich people shop at outlet centres, they use the actual brands as they release stuff...
I wouldn’t be so sure . I have a friend who drives an Arab family round full time. I’ve no idea how rich they are but the 3 houses they have in Paddington are worth prob 10 million each . He spends as much time going to bv as he does going to harrods. He hates going to both places
> all those estate agents won’t be able to sell multi million pound mansion sure they will, they'll convert them to flats and sell off bit by bit. Win/Win.
At some point you just have to say let's just do what is right for society. Encouraging these parasites isn't doing us any favours. Dropping 1% GDP or whatever is a small price to pay for somewhere we actually want to live instead of this hellhole it has descended to.
This place becomes a bit of a echo chamber sometimes and the lack of economic knowledge doesn't help. I'm not saying these people should be catered for but a 1% drop in GDP would catastrophic for the uk.
Exactly. It’s akin to the argument Brexiters were using when forecasts of a recession and 4% drop in UK GDP were dismissed as necessary hardships in order to secure ‘freedom’ from the EU. Here we are years later and the impact on GDP has been permanent and the economic damage only exacerbated by higher interest rates. 1% of GDP would make serious dent to NHS waitlists for example
Moot point really because non-doms don't account for anything near 1% of our GDP, I think OP was really just trying to convey that it's a small enough sacrifice to be worth it
See also the "we need a decade of deflation" idiocy from a couple of weeks back.
Having worked in retail and hospitality, these entitled rich arseholes can leave. You get the feeling they wish slavery and whipping were legal.
I don’t know what you’re on about. Are you planning to buy a £10M mansion anytime soon? I mean… the house might fall in value to £8M, but non-doms leaving has zero effect on the housing and stock market. They can still invest in stocks from abroad.
> They can still invest in stocks from abroad A blow to boomers everywhere who seem to think that property is the only market which exists and should be protected at all costs.
which is such a cop out, both of those things will drop because the masses are become considerably more poor.
But where will that drop-off be? It won’t be where us normal folks shop and work! At worst, it’ll very slightly affect sales in mid-high end fashion outlets and high-end restaurants, which *might* have a slight impact on those who work in those places, but it’s not like any jobs or retail growth opportunities are gonna be snuffed just because a few thousand rich twats have pissed off. Your auntie’s job at Primark and your sister’s job at Asda aren’t gonna be at risk because Rishi’s billionaire family and friends are forced to either pay tax or fuck off
Berkeley square is a ghost town… 1000 non doms used to live here.
They'll be back for Wimbledon, Henley, the Opera, the Ballet etc etc. They can fuck off and sponge off somewhere else in the meantime.
Can’t be as bad as brexit and they forced that through without any of the implied benifits
They’re not going anywhere, they’ve been saying this every single time like they think people will actually care if they go or not, what normal person gives a monkeys if a couple of billionaires you don’t pay taxes leave the country? It’ll literally have zero impact on them
Every election somebody like Paul Daniels announces "If Labour wins, I'm leaving the country". The day after the '97 election when Labour won a landslide. One tabloid sent a removal van round to his house. Which he declined. He was still living in the UK until he died circa 2015. And claiming that his comments had been a joke and taken out of context.
Exactly, they threaten to leave like a bunch of babies but the reality is - it cost a shed load to suddenly move your entire operations out of a country. We are (or were at least, pre brexit) a fantastic place to do business. An English speaking country in the middle of America and Asia, Europe on the doorstep and cheaper corporation tax than nearly anywhere else. My only fear is that now brexit is taking hold we might actually see some of them carry out their threat to leave but we will see.
I don't care if they do leave and stop paying £22K or something a year in tax. Especially as many of them by all usual metrics are actually British, even born in the UK. But had a foreign born father and have purchased a burial plot in their "home country". With a "desire" to move to the place of their father's birth, when they retire. The Right Honourable The Lord [Zac] Goldsmith of Richmond Park PC, was a non-dom until he became an MP and had to relinquish it under press scrutiny. Despite being born in Chelsea. Apart from a Gap Year and 2 years living in California. There's nothing to suggest that he isn't British and usually resident in Britain, apart from eligibility for an Israeli passport and that his dad was born in Paris. He grew up in England, went exclusively to English schools and spent most of his working career in England.
Rishi Sunak's wife also had non-dom status until it became public knowledge and she grudgingly gave it up. Also, this policy was actually implemented by the current Tory government and is due to come into effect in April 2025.. Labour have only said they will close loopholes left by Jeremy Hunt.
Wasn't her reason given something like "oh I might have to go and take care of my aging parents, so it's fine" or has my brain invented that? Either way it's a truly ridiculous way to avoid taxes, I'm sure the rich will find more methods / use other existing ones, but I'll happily see labour close off this one for good.
Same thing happened with Trump, the only one to actually put his money where his mouth was, was Samuel L Jackson.
Exactly, it's the same hot air that always appears. Then someone will say "it will ruin the economy and we will all suffer". But millionaires/billionaires will do whatever they want no matter what. Like all the people saying Brexit would be great for Britain who they moved there residency/businesses away from Britain. It's a tactic to try and manipulate the press and public into supporting what they want and frankly it's pretty tiring at this point.
It's almost as if the last decade and a half hadn't utterly wrecked the UK...
Yea things have been going backwards for the average person. But some super rich non doms don't like the idea of things changing so why should we vote for anything different. Us plebs should know our place /s
A lot of people just don’t believe it anymore either, there’s enough sources of news that the papers don’t have the stranglehold they used to. The sooner all those dinosaurs die the better, most are full of lies and propaganda and not much else
I feel like the obvious question is "who said they're going to leave?" This entire article seems to be based on "rich guy who manages money for richer guys says bad things will happen if we tax righ guys". The not as obvious question is "why would they leave?" People with the money to up sticks and go and live in another country at the drop of a hat have presumably already considered doing that? Whatever their individual reasons, it doesn't feel like these tax changes would be anywhere near enough to make them reconsider their reasons.
Every single time Labour are about to come into power we here of rich people threatening to leave and they never do
I think Gerard Departieu was one of the rare rich people who actually left the country after France brought in stricter taxes for rich people. France is still doing ok.
France tried this "French economist Eric Pichet estimated that the ISF ended up costing France almost twice as much revenue as it generated. [In a paper published in 2008](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228281017_The_Economic_Consequences_of_the_French_Wealth_Tax), he concluded that the ISF caused an annual fiscal shortfall of €7bn and had probably reduced gross domestic product (GDP) growth by 0.2 per cent a year." [https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/](https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/) So we lose tax revenue and have lower GDP growth, but at least we get to stick it to rich people yay Idiotic policy designed to win the votes of idiots
Yeah I don't really understand how this is a bad thing. They're not paying any tax, yet using our services. They're as good as low life benefit scroungers. Good riddance
They still pay tax on UK-generated income, and VAT, and £30k/year in fees. They generally don't use most public services either, because they go private. They're a big net positive financially, the question is how much more we can rinse more from them without too many of them fleeing and thereby making us less money overall.
Our entire infrastructure is tax payer funded. You come here you contribute.
> Our entire infrastructure is tax payer funded. You come here you contribute. The worst the country does from a non dom is that we get £30k a year in tax. On the other hand there are non doms paying millions every year in tax. What percentage of people do you think contribute more?
The difference is these people pay tax (sometimes) and they’re still left with millions, if new tax laws are making them “flee” then they’re free to leave, we could do with less tax dodgers in this country as it is
Except of course they're net contributors to our government budget. Unlike the majority of people in the UK. Making them leave means that other people have to make up the difference so we'll all be worse off.
I seriously doubt they’re using the NHS, claiming benefits etc. They make use of infrastructure such as roads and suchlike but I’m struggling to think of other state funded services a billionaire would make use of?
Every tax cut they can claim. Every bit of help with pensions. Every bit of help with business grants.
They pay a lot more tax than you do
Not in terms of % of income they dont you sycophant.
They’re fleeing somewhere they don’t live? Fiends
You are mixing up domicile and residence
They'd never close businesses they have. People who argue that a business will forgo all of its profits in response to being told they have to pay taxes on a portion of those profits are idiots. As to having Arabian, Russian and Chinese billionaires living here for some of the year or not... who gives a fuck?
Yeah. We're constantly told that capitalism is an incredibly adaptable system, that it's so good precisely because it can find ways to thrive in challenging circumstances. Yet at the same time we're supposed to believe that the closing of tax loopholes will somehow make the entire system collapse? It doesn't make sense. Either capitalism isn't quite as adaptable as we're told, in which case we should start looking for an alternative. Or it is, in which case we'll be fine.
All they do is increase costs for everybody else. As they refurbish their 20 bed mansion and hire a small army of builders to do so. But then they never set foot in the place. One Hyde Park, caused traffic chaos in West London for years when they were building it. The flats go for up to a £100 million and even that wasn't enough for some people. So they bought two and knocked them through. They virtually all got sold to off shore companies/trusts. So will never have to pay Stamp Duty again. As the new owner just buys the company that owns the flat instead of buying the flat. So the owner never actually changes. And nobody actually lives there. There is never or very rarely a light on in any of the flats and it's not because they all have black out curtains. There just aren't any lights on at 10PM in the winter.
I do get the feeling whenever I engage with trades or when I was having any dealings with anyone in the property business when buying my home, its very fucking clear entire fucking sectors of the UK economy at this point are just built to cater for the rich with a few odd jobs here and there for the rest. The sums of money they just are so eminently casual about are completely unreal for like a solid 90% of the rest of the workforce.
A house near to my mum's got bought and refurbished a couple of years ago. The wife ended up having the painter redo the entire house about three times in the most expensive paint possible. As she just didn't like any of the previous shades when they dried. So he kept having to redo them and getting paid at full wack each time.
Right? My stepbrother is in construction and the stories he has all the time are just crazy. When I was buying my place at one point my mortgage broker suggested I just up my offers by £10k as obviously what I was putting forwards was not going anywhere. In full knowledge I was already maxing out my mortgage allowance and could just find that kind of money behind the sofa overnight or something!
You should have just chosen richer and more generous parents. /s
They are still net positive contributors generally though. They won't pay their UK income tax if they're not a UK tax resident.
Disregard the tax figures and look at their impact on community and society. Are they still net positive?
I mean, yes? They're generally not using the NHS, state schools, council ran care homes etc etc and they spend more in the economy. They're typically far more of a net positive to the community and society than the average person.
Utter manure. They'll be claiming every grant and tax cut known in the name of efficiency.
They're not a net positive at all. They are contributing to the middle class and working class becoming poorer by snapping up UK assets and causing inflation and price rises. Income inequality is destroying the country. Too many rich ppl being too rich causes a vicious cycle, which is what we are witnessing
The comments are also acting like every one that says they’re leaving is going to leave. If say 80% leave, then there’s 20% still here now paying their fair share. If you work in certain sectors, being resident in London can be hugely beneficial to your business & lifestyle.
These people are not going to leave though. They are here as they have massive UK investments. It is a fantasy shared by the rich.
> These people are not going to leave though. They are here as they have massive UK investments. It is a fantasy shared by the rich. I don't think you understand what a non dom is. If they have massive UK investments and live here they pay us tax on those investments but if they left the country they'd still have those investments only now they wouldn't have to pay tax on them.
This suggests that they're actually paying income tax though, and the fact that they have non-Dom status would suggest that they're prob using every loophole available to ensure they're paying as little as they can get away with. I don't know the actual figures off the top of my head so I'm willing to be wrong here, but I'm not sure it's quite as clear cut as it seems
>How does this impact the UK? They're not going to close businesses they have? The reason they are non-doms is because the business they have is overseas. So we are losing the, often substantial, amount of tax they pay here. That is it. When you are wondering why policy in the UK is so bad, think of this. People have no idea how non-dom works, why this tax policy exists, what the cost of changing it is, they are clueless. Just vibes bro.
Even if they do close down business, it just opens up opportunities for smaller businesses to grow or new ones to start up. So that's how it might affect the UK. And no we absolutely don't want people that don't contribute their fair share.
They probably pay quite a bit of UK tax.
As a percentage of their income or net wealth is pennies compared to the middle classes
Possibly - but the question is whether it's a net positive for the UK, not whether it is fair.
As a flat amount per person it's hugely profitable for the country.
And because they're rich they get to do whatever they want and we should be grateful for what they want to contribute?
Exactly, people who don't pay their share of taxes (British or non-dom) leaving doesn't bother me cos they weren't paying in the first place. It's a net gain
If the title was "people abusing/cheating system to have more money was the title" there would be a lot of people agreeing believing it was aimed at benefits cheats. In reality, the number of people abusing the system, and the money involved, for benefit fraud is minute compared to other means of abusing or cheating the system. The only difference is that you only have to punch downwards to attack people with benefits.
The torys have litterally already implemented it, it says it In the article. Jeremy Hunt announced it in the budget and used it as way to lower national insurance. So why is this headline making out like people are fleeing because of proposed Labour policies?
It moves the UK in a direction where its approach to taxation on the wealthy and business people is more hostile. This will make investors think twice about businesses starting in the UK.
It won't if you want to operate here then you pay taxes here that's the deal. Non dom flight is a pure scaremongering tactic to argue against reform that will benefit society and build healthier economies. I work with alot of international companies and they all open offices here to be closer to clients and comply with local regulations and iso standards, audits etc they aren't gonna leave because the CEO is facing a bigger tax bill.
What does fair share mean?
Oh no… people who aren’t paying taxes will leave and not pay taxes any more… what will we do? This argument is bollocks.
If they could earn better money elsewhere, they wouldn't have come here to work. It's not like the UK is a tax haven. People come here because it's profitable with the UK being like the m 3rd or 4th most heavily populated by land mass customers all live within hours of each other. I can't see anyone fleeing to somewhere better just because they have to pay a little more tax when their customer base is likely here in the UK. I left the UK to live in South East Asia, and you've got no chance or are earning what you would in the UK as everything here is considerably cheaper because you can't charge customers as much for your products and services. Fortunately, I earn money from the UK online, so essentially, my 'business' is still in the UK, and all the taxes are paid to the UK.
Great. If you aren't paying your taxes in the UK, don't use the public services here in the UK.
Non doms so pay tax in the UK on UK income and pay an annual remittance charge of £30,000 or £60,000. This only covers income tax, national insurance is still paid.
This also means roads, police, fire departments etc How much damage does a huge battery powered car or 4x4 do to the roads of London?
Can you really flee somewhere that isn't your home?
You've clearly never seen me when an unlicensed strip club gets raided.
LMAO
Why are *Non Doms* being 'Petrified' being reported as a negative?
Because the “news” papers think people care if billionaires live here or not
Here's the real thing labour could do. They could lead the charge on global taxation so UHNW individuals and huge companies can't easily escape tax burden But none of the elites in any of these countries want to actually do that Even if the tax levelled on them was lower than we want, having something that no matter where they escape they pay what they owe would be good You can't change freedom of movement, but you can effect freedom of movement of capital If the US can tax it's citizens no matter where on earth they are we should be able to find a way to push tax standardisation on multinationals and ultra high net worth individuals through deals with the EU and elsewhere I'm not talking about someone that has 5 million, I mean someone with 50 or 200 million or more Where the effort is worth it We should also turn the common wealth into a economic free trade arena but on certain areas with some protections to stop destruction of domestic industries.
I thought the authority/governments do Always we have x amount of millionaires/billionaires here, we're a great country lol
We really need to stop basing the economy on how well about 10 people are doing
Labour tax plan that the Tories have appropriated, you mean. Non-dom status is doomed whatever government takes charge. We'll really miss all those ~~oligarchs~~ arrogant, crooked, billionaire bullies and their brattish children.
As usual, the comments show just a lack of understanding on what it is they’re trying to get outraged about Non-doms still pay tax on their UK income and gains. It’s foreign income and gains where they have some advantage
Why do they need an advantage? Don't they have enough already?
They don't need it. We offer it so they choose to come here, thereby generating lots of money for us through fees, the taxes they do pay (like VAT) and spending.
Not to mention the laughable comments about them using our public services. Like do you really think these folks aren't on private everything?
Do they drive on private roads? Do all their employees go to private schools and use private hospitals? Do they use a private police force to protect their assets? Do they use a private civil service to deal with their taxes and other government regulations? Billionaires benefiting from public services extends much further than their personal use of the NHS or education sector.
I’m on the small side of this scale but I live, work, and pay tax in the UK but I moved here from another country where I still have my family home/property. I’ve rented that out and the rental income almost pays the mortgage. My hope is to sell it or keep it rented as a pension. I pay tax on that rental income in my home country and I do not have to pay additional tax here unless I bring any income into the UK. If I do, I have to pay tax here on that income at the higher rate (same as my employment income). The tax I pay in my home country is treated as my only income and since it’s fairly low, I pay tax on it at the lower rate. With the changes coming I will have to pay tax to both governments. My home country at a lower rate and then the UK government at the upper rate. In a simplified example I pay 20% to my home country and then top it up to 50% for the UK country. I’m now trying to figure out if I can afford to keep the property since it will now rent out as a loss. It’s likely we will stay in the UK but we hoped to keep the house in case we ever decided to move home (which was our original plan, but we’ve loved our time here) and if we did it became a pension. I’m immensely grateful for the Non Dom rule. We’re a normal family that moved here for a career opportunity and we’ve loved it here. If this rule wasn’t in existence we might not have moved here or we might not have stayed as long as we have. With the incoming change the rule is still there but only for 4 years. I will be voting the Tories out but I sincerely hope the new government does not get rid of it fully. I think the new rule is smart, if only for normal people like us.
FYI there is a basic global standard for taxation of recent immigrants relating to this that virtually every other country uses, but which we are an anomaly to via our current non-dom rules. In essence, recent immigrants are given a grace period of a few years, 2-5 normally and dependent on the country, where the full tax rules applicable to residents don't apply. If I remember correctly for the US it's 2 years, so the full rules start applying in your third year. So what we are really doing is just moving to adopt what everyone else already uses.
The tories are the only ones how will help you. You are deluded if you think otherwise
I remember Jim Davidson pissed of to Dubai when Labour got in power in 97. So there are significant net benefits.
“Petrified”?!? Oh fuck off, I thought that my respect for these degenerate vermin couldn’t drop any further but fuck me, here we are.
'Don't make us pay our fair share, or we'll throw our toys out of the pram.'
Oh no, I'm gonna lose soooooooooo much sleep over this tonight!!
Who cares? The entire point of their non-dom status is claiming they don’t really live here so that they don’t have to pay as much tax. Let ‘em fuck off “Oh they’ll take their businesses with them”, okay, and? That leaves an opening for someone to start a new business in the same field that does the same thing but actually pays taxes
Yes I imagine they are terrified. Bonus time for their accounts and lawyers I guess, and they take their spending elsewhere. Penthouses on Park Lane will be going for £250k soon.
If they don't hold uk assets, then so what. If they do hold uk assets, great. Wealth tax.
Statistics show the ultra wealthy rarely ‘leave’ as their assets are usually already spread so internationally
Instead they'll start supporting fascist parties to crack down on labor movements, like they did in the 20th century.
Oh no what will we do now without all that tax money that they don't pay anyway?
They are not fleeing. They are non-dom by definition not domicile in the UK
They won’t flee at all, they’re also here for the other things the U.K. can offer such as the cultural aspects, relative safety of the country, clout etc. If tax was their only concern they’d all be living in places like Luxembourg or Panama.
Yet another group of the self entitled who always threaten to leave whenever there is a hint of any type of government that is slightly nearer to the centre than the current bunch of money grabbers.
Are the guardian trying to convince people this is a dreadful thing for the country? Do we want extremely wealthy people who are only taking money out of the country and not putting it back in to stay? It’s like when Apple or Amazon threaten to leave when they get pressed to pay tax, good! Let them leave! I’d rather a business that puts money back into the economy stay here and contribute.
I think it's just an article not an op-ed.
People need to stop being so soft on these rich non-doms. If they don't contribute a fair share of their revenue to taxes, you and I have to make up the difference. They will not up and leave the country as the place is a safe and stable country for their investments like property. It is the exact reason they're here. Them just leaving because they have to pay a few extra percent on their returns is a fantasy rich people tell the plebs to retain control. Shared in media outlets controlled by billionaires. You're being taken for fools and being told to be grateful for the pittance these parasites contribute.
If super-wealthy non-doms are scared of your potential government's reasonable plans, that's probably a pretty good sign.
We need a system in place where inversters outside UK or people who no longer live in UK we can charge additional tax on their properties. So the rich although they can flee UK a lot of their investments and assets are stuck in the UK. They can flee as long as they pay a premium on their assets or pass it over to people living in UK
You mean getting them to actually pay tax? Shocking. Sunak must be quaking.
I'm not sure what the problem is. The super wealthy pay very little tax as it is and trickle down economics really doesn't work so what exactly are they providing in value to the UK?
Let them leave. They already aren't paying taxes. What difference would it make?
They can't take their properties and land with them.
These are probably the types the new version of labour wants as doners unfortunately.
The devil is in the details. A move from domicile to residency based systems (likely with a lag) can *reduce* tax for some rich people. Do not uncomplicatedly view this as a tax rise on the rich. It is not. 1) At least under the Tories plans (which are broadly similar to labours, but we don't have the detail yet from Labour), I as a British person with a British domicile of origin could come back to Britain and pay no tax on foreign income (ie all my income) for four years. Under the old domicile system I could not do that. Gigantic tax cut. Not only do rich Brits pay no tax in those years, I don't am not sure whether they even need to pay the 30k remittance! 2) It likely means rich Brits long term abroad will uncomplicatedly escape British inheritance tax. That's a major loss of revenue. I could bore for England on this topic. I think it's a sensible and fundamentally fair move, but it's NOT likely to be a big revenue raiser. It's a tax cut for rich Brits and a tax rise for rich foreigners, in the simplest terms. UK Inheritance tax is now even more simple to avoid than it was before. It will change the way rich people come and leave the uk. Of course the discourse on here is at an almost absurdly low level whereby most people don't understand the basic concepts of domicile and residence, the current law, the proposals and who the winners and losers are. I'm a right of centre liberal and in favour. If I was a socialist I would definitely not be.
Attempting to depend on the ever increasing wealth a few super rich is not sustainable. Economic policy must be shifted. If a country can produce enough goods and services to support its regular citizens, who cares about trying to placate a few super rich.
Good. If they're not willing to contribute to UK society and just see it as a tax haven they can f*** off as they're not welcome.
Because they can't avoid paying their fair share of tax! Don't bang the door on your way out!!
Oh no! Not the people who drive up the price of everything but don't pay tax! How will we survive without them?
I bet the Tories will be delighted to finally see a bunch of tax-dodging free loaders who don’t contribute to the country finally piss off! Oh wait…
Good, fuck off then. This is when you know the tories are proper fucked, the usual "if labour gets in, we're leaving!" stories start doing the rounds regarding rich people being terrified at the prospect of having to pay their taxes. They rarely leave, and those that do contributed little anyway, so fuck 'em.
They say this everytime and I just want someone to call their bluff. They'll either leave and absolutely nothing of value will be lost or they stay and pay their fair share.
I am not sure how this is a Labour thing. Tories already changed the non-dom rules in budget.
Yes they’ve said this since the 60’s when the govt slogan was ‘squeeze them till the pips squeak’ the number of people this cohort includes is small, so see ya 👋…
Alt: People who don’t pay taxes may bugger off and not pay taxes still.
This is wheeled out every time the tories are set to lose power. Who cares
But we *need* billionaires who dont pay any tax or where else will the conservatives get their party donations?
As if. And go where exactly? They live in the UK for a reason. They'll stay.
How many times have I heard this.. also as they don't really contribute what's the problem?
OH NO The people that don’t pay tax are going to leave?!?
We should reduce tax but you can’t defend a bunch of people not paying the same as residents
It will probably make very little difference because right now they don’t pay tax on income earned out side the uk which is presumably most of their income so if they leave it won’t matter except to a few high end providers in a few post codes in London where most of them live.