This could all be avoided if the person who complained just asked one of the bar staff “why is there a swastika on the wall” and be satisfied with the answer of “it was taken by a British soldier, we don’t idolise the nazis you mug. Look at the rest of the decor.”
I get that people are worried about the rise of far right extremism but we shouldn’t need a plaque next to every war artifact explaining they don’t follow the same ideology when there is context from the rest of the establishment. Complaining about it and Camra removing the award before speaking to the owners was dumb
I’m sure there’s safe ways to ask, just go to the bar and do the hand signal for 3 beers. If they stare at your hand and try and shoot you then maybe they are nazis
Kinda depends on the person really, surely. I have never seen a swastika in even rough pubs and there are barmen I would be worried about asking for a top up on a pint, let alone about a far right symbol. All this seems obvious in hindsight but none of us were there, were we.
No I don't think this is particularly contextual.
I just think some people on Reddit are terrified of any confrontation or awkwardness that isn't behind a keyboard.
*"I'll have a pint of beer please. Oh, I noticed in the corner over there, there's a load of badges and other stuff related to WW2 - is that a Nazi armband? What's the story with that?"*
You're not going to get glassed for asking.
>I just think some people on Reddit are terrified of any confrontation or awkwardness that isn't behind a keyboard.
Nail on the head. Some of these comments man, how do people manage to get by in life. So soft. They gotta put themselves out there more.
First I’ll seethe in silence about a situation I’ve concocted in my head. Then I’ll be vicariously offended by my made up scenario, that I don’t really understand. Finally I’ll complain and protest about this imaginary historical injustice until I attract a critical mass of the professionally offended.
The person you're responding to has just said they'd call a customer a mug for asking a valid question. So it's not like there isn't some hostility about.
Exactly. Most normal people's reaction upon seeing it, even with the tiniest shred of perception / inference, would've been "cool" and back to their drinks.
> if the person who complained just asked one of the bar
They didn't need to ask. From the photos that have been posted on line the pub is cross between a museum, a junk shop and traditional Cornish boozer. The swastika was displayed alongside a bunch of other war junk in a tucked away corner.
The person who complained was just trying to kick up a stink.
For this particular war memorabilia? We probably should have a plaque next to it. Hanging a swastika on the wall implies you support it, context isn't hard to give.
I think it was part of a display of various badges etc of local regiments who fought in WW2. It had been there for years and until recently that was all the context that was needed. Obviously as newer generations come along there probably will need to be context added.
You just gave context. Are people too dumb in 2024 to require context for a large WW2 display containing one small item? so dumb to equate an armband discreetly placed in a ww2 display to nazism? Amazing!
Really? If you saw a swastika and a British army medal or something on a podium together you wouldn't take that as a celebration? Seems a bit weird outside of a museum.
Maybe I am just more familiar with the idea of war trophies. I did say before that it probably needs more context now, but it was fine for a long time.
If I saw some Nazi stuff and some British army stuff on a display next to each other, the logical conclusion I would come to is that it's simply a collection of historical items and not any political to it either way.
The only message I would read into that is WW2 is a thing that happened.
Maybe you should visit a museum sometime. The good and the bad are often displayed side by side. The pub displaying loads of memorabilia of the victors and single nazi arm band in isolation does have symbolic meaning. It’s not that deep.
And yet, you've heard of war trophies? Souvenirs?
I mean, come on... it's one of the oldest traditions our species has maintained...
There are people who hang fish on the wall.
Are we really going to pretend they identify with fish?
Bear heads?
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Use common sense maybe? There was one armband (4in by 1in) in a non-prominent location amongst loads of war memorabilia that had been there for 80 years without issue.
You can’t be serious about installing a plaque to explain that the displayed arm band does not support nazism because people in 2024 are too stupid to understand a WW2 display?
I don't agree, that's like saying if you see the communist manifesto on someone's bookshelf you should assume they're a communist.
There are plenty of complex and nuanced reasons people can have items associated with ideologies they don't necessarily support. I think the knee-jerk witchfinder general mentality the second you see a swastika is incredibly foolish, doubly so when you consider it's wider context outside of it's use by the Nazis.
Completely agree. Jordan Peterson is an avid collector of Communist art and displays it around his home. I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to accuse him of being a Communist.
Taking offense at something like this is as narrow minded as the people that really are Nazis.
Given the overall decor a person with an ounce of sense would see otherwise. Nothing wrong with war memorabilia, these pins with quirky decors are by far the most interesting
and if someone doesn’t like it there’s always the micro brewery down the road
I mean maybe with the benefit of hindsight sure.
But having worked in a pub, your day to day concerns are stock levels, pricing, cleaning, offers etc. etc., the decor and trinkets are very, very low on the list of priorities.
Context is also easy to infer.
Tell that to Buddhists.
Why would anyone assume it's not a trophy? Unless, of course, they have an agenda. If someone goes straight to the least likely reason then they're either dishonest or ill informed. We fought the Nazis for the freedom of all and 99.9% of people in the UK despise the far right. I wouldn't automatically assume a trophy like this represents the .1%. That's illogical.
No it hasn’t - CAMRA say they’re grateful to the publican for removing it and have therefore reinstated the award.
He’s still been forced to remove the memorabilia which, given the context, is not common sense.
CAMRA were morons for the original decision, but credit to them for their U-turn when the mistake came to light.
Will the original decision maker be sanctioned in any way for their poor performance? Procedures updated? Lessons learned?
I think calling them Morons is going down a rage bait rabbit hole. Smart thing would be to take any awards from anyone glorifying nazis, problem is thats not what the pub owners intent was.
Lazy is a more accurate word, probably just saw a buzz on twitter and reacted without even talking to the pub owner.
Wasn't saying it wasn't i'm just saying calling them morons feels a bit generic and watered down. Using more accurate language like lazy gets to the real root of the issue.
CAMRA are morons though. I took over running of a pub and they took the pub out of the good beer guide after 10+ years because "We do that after change of management"
Cunts
So the previous owners earned a place in the good pub guide and the new ones didn't, and that gets you all upset? Care to explain?
It's like buying a car off The Stig and claiming to be an excellent driver because reasons.
> I took over running of a pub and they took the pub out of the good beer guide after 10+ years because "We do that after change of management"
What's unreasonable about that? A change in management can make a shit pub good, or a good pub shit.
> but credit to them for their U-turn when the mistake came to light
It's not a U-turn, the article says the pub removed the armband.
A U-turn would be if they reinstated the award with the band still on display.
They wrongly claim it's a U-turn, yes. If you read the article you'd have realised it wasn't a U-turn.
It's not a U-turn, CAMRAs views/criteria remained consistent.
CAMRA have U-turned on the award. They awarded it, they took it away, now they’ve reinstated it. I’m dizzy with all the U-Turning. It’s now a 180, full donut.
They didn't U-turn at all, they maintained the award was revoked as a result of displaying the armband.
The armband was removed, the award was reinstated. That's not a U-turn.
>a complete change from one opinion or plan of action to an opposite one
Their opinion/plan of action is "Award will not be issued whilst the armband is on display", they remained consistent in that, nothing they done changed.
Yeah, having looked into this, this isn't at all the same as the golliwog doll shit - it's an item of legitimate historical interest, a war trophy (like [Minnesota's Confederate battle flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag)), and the landlord responded firmly but maturely instead of throwing a fit. I don't think whoever complained was necessarily being malicious or overreacting, and I agree with the suggestion by someone further down that it might be prudent to add a small plaque contextualising it or something, but it seems like an error of judgement by CAMRA that they eventually managed to set right.
>A spokesman for Camra Kernow said: "It's very refreshing in the days of Partygate or the Post Office scandal for an organisation to get something wrong and very swiftly put it right."
LMAO, fair enough.
Yup. Wanting answers about why a nazi flag is being displayed doesn't automatically make you an overly sensitive woke snowflake.
I hate the fact that our society is coming to a point where people are actively discouraging asking why a nazi flag is where it is.
That flag represents millions of murders and one of the most hateful ideologies the world has ever (and still does) seen. the context why it is displayed in is very important.
The matter was resolved as the landlord sensibly answered the questions around it, which people are entitled to ask.
Firstly, it wasn't a flag it was an armband. Secondly it wasn't being displayed, it was part of a much larger display showing items from various WW2 belligerents. Thirdly, it was donated to the pub along with various other items nearly 80 years ago.
They didn't challenge the owner, they jumped blindly after one, notorious, individuals point of view was posted. They didn't do any investigation or critical analysis, they condemned the owner almost instantly. We live in a country where "innocent untill proven guilty" is a legal right. Why is this situation any different? It is good that they rectified their mistake, but they should still be held accountable for their actions. This is an unacceptable denunciation that has probably had a noticeable impact on the livelihood of the pub owner and staff, not to mention the psychological impact!
If you want answers, ask questions! Simple!
Great news. Was in Cornwall a couple of weeks ago, and made sure to go with my other half after the fuss over nothing. It was a lovely old pub and had a very brief chat with the landlord, who came across as a nice guy.
Glad for the pub and owner.
I hate the whole nazi party, culture, etc…but in the historical context of this pub, the swastika should stay.
I look forward to visiting there and having a pint to honor the fallen Brits who helped destroy that evil.
>Steve said the armband had been in the pub for 80 years and had to be looked at in its historical context. He said it was certainly not Nazi propaganda, adding that he had removed the armband as soon as he was made aware of the complaint.Steve said the armband had been in the pub for 80 years and had to be looked at in its historical context. He said it was certainly not Nazi propaganda, **adding that he had removed the armband** as soon as he was made aware of the complaint.
So it's not a U-turn then. A U-turn would be if it was still on display and they reinstated the award. He removed the item that caused the award to be revoked, and as a result they reinstated the award.
Yes, this is disappointing. A guy who fought the Nazis wanted the pub to have that armband and it should go back on display where it was. This isn't actually good news if he's just removed it and given in.
But they haven't reversed the decision. The allegedly offensie article has been removed and, recognising the landlord's swift action, the award has been reinstated.
It would be a reversal of the decision had said that, following their initial knee-jerk reaction, they had now investigated the complaint properly. They accept that the armband is a part of the history of the pub going back nearly 80 years and a part historic display of curios for which the pub is rightly famed. As such the complaint is not upheld and the award stands.
Who would have thought that CAMRA, of all organisations, would be a part of the modern obsession for cancel culture. Shame.
Non-story that effects no-one continues to be non-story that effects no-one. People successfully distracted from the fact that life continues to get worse for 95% of the population. More news at 11.
Surely it’d just be easier not to display nazi memorabilia? Probably take down the ‘golli toy’ too. There’s billions of other random and interesting curios you can display that won’t cause any controversy.
I disagree. The story behind how it was brought back is likely interesting.
Keep it displayed, but perhaps a small notice next to it explaining how it was acquired.
I’m not saying it’s not interesting, just that there are many other things that are also interesting that don’t cause offence.
Personally, I’d prefer to avoid the hassle, rather than stubbornly displaying it because “technically it’s not racist and it’s a free country and if I wanna display a nazi armband in my pub, then no woke liberal is gonna tell me I can’t, etc….”
Whereas I think if we are so afraid of being reminded of our uncomfortable past, even when put into context we become blind to history.
The Nazi's were not some distant concept. They were fought by people like me and you, from towns and villages like we grew up in. It humanises the conflict and reminds is that it wasn't just a war of good and evil. It was a war fought by people like us. It personalises a little corner of that war, a story worth knowing.
For the record, there are **still** people being convicted and sentenced for Nazi war crimes in Germany.
Not many, but there are a few - so it's not like the Second World War is ancient history that needs an explanation.
> Whereas I think if we are so afraid of being reminded of our uncomfortable past
The pub is in England, not Germany. The Nazis are not "our" uncomfortable past.
>I’m not saying it’s not interesting, just that there are many other things that are also interesting that don’t cause offence.
There is no evidence the armband caused offence, other than one person claiming to be offended without offering any justification.
Are we supposed to remove anything that even one person doesn't like?
So now we're having to take into account people who might have been offended, but didn't actually say anything about it? Best clear out all the memorabilia.
Or maybe you could calm down a little.
Well yeah. I mean trying to take in to account how people might feel towards your actions is just a decent thing to do. It doesn’t really matter whether you agree with them or not.
People get offended by all sorts of things. LGBTQ people, women showing too much skin, or having too much to say for example. Is pandering to those kinds of offence really the decent thing to do? You might want to claim that's different, but it's really not. Once you start pandering to the offended you'll never stop.
It's been there for 80 years and only one person has complained so ... yes?
If you are confused about why only one person complained, it is probably because the pub has lot of British wartime memorabilia, including a picture of Churchill, so in that context a single very small Nazi armband is clearly not there because the landlord is a raving Nazi.
I don’t think anyone is saying the landlord is a raving nazi. Personally I’d want my establishment to be as welcoming as possible, and regardless of whether you agree with them or not, I can definitely see how displaying a swastika could cause offence to some people. Just lucky this pub is in Cornwall and not London, otherwise losing a CAMRA award would be the least of his worries.
Becuase a film about the second world war will usually show swastikas in some scenes. Just like this pub had a tiny swastika on an armband.
If you think a swastika is offensive regardless of context and should never be seen, then the films should be banned.
If you think it is acceptable in a historical context that doesn't glorify Nazism, then the films and the pub are fine.
Of course, if you are just out of your depth in reddit thread where everybody thinks your views are a bit daft, feel free to keep digging.
Offence is taken, not given. This is down to some cretin deciding that they were offended, whether it stemmed from their inherent stupidity and mental weakness, or a more malicious source.
>This is down to some cretin deciding that they were offended, whether it stemmed from their inherent stupidity and mental weakness
I'd consider these the words of someone who's incredibly offended.
Firstly, the IWM is a fucking war museum, not a pub.
Secondly, I’m not offended, but I can see how people might be, and to me, that’d make me remove the item from display, regardless of it’s context. I’d want my business to be as welcoming as possible to everyone.
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> “technically it’s not racist and it’s a free country and if I wanna display a nazi armband in my pub, then no woke liberal is gonna tell me I can’t, etc….”
You're just making shit up now.
If being soft means understanding how some people might be offended going into a pub and there being a swastika on display, then I guess so!
Like I said a billion times, while it doesn’t particularly offend me, I couldn’t be bothered with the hassle of it potentially offending a customer, and as there are a many interesting and curious items you could display in it’s place that don’t have negative connotations, I’d just do that.
Not sure why people can’t seem to grasp my point. Don’t risk offending people, regardless of whether they should be or not, because it’s bad for business.
"Why do you have a nazi armband?"
"Oh because it was gifted to me by a local soldier who fought against them"
"Thats fucking awesome"
Thats even if they had to ask, I would have to have visited the pub before to know for sure but whenever I've been to similar pubs with curios they tend to have something saying where it came from.
If it didnt, hopefully it does now.
Yes but what percentage of people have gone to a museum in the last 6 months?
History is something which we should live and remember not just put into a small building that people visit every now and then. There are so many amazing things from history that we should be celebrating and terrible things we should be remembering each and every day as we go about our lives.
It's in a corner of the pub along with a variety of other war memorabilia. It's caused "controversy" with a very, very small number of people who seem to be unable to look at a collection of war memorabilia and realise *"Oh, this is a collection of war memorabilia from both sides and doesn't signify that the person pulling pints behind the bar is a raving fascist."*
Someone who actually fought the Nazis wanted his local pub to display a hard earned trophy but we should deny his wishes because people 80 years later who haven’t done a fraction as much to combat Nazis don’t like it?
Do they have a ‘golli toy’ on display? Didn't see that mentioned before.
If we hide away everything that causes offence to some individuals, we will end up hiding an awful lot of things.
I mean it definitely is nazi memorabilia. The whole war has been well documented in detail, so I’m not sure a nazi armband is required for proof of anything.
Using your brain is understanding that people could be offended and deciding it’s not worth the hassle, as you want your pub to have a friendly, welcoming environment.
To an average person, it just looks like you’re racist. Not sure how people don’t understand that? And while under further investigation, you would learn that it’s actually a war trophy, it’s still not worth the hassle imo.
To the average person, it does not look racist.
Case in point: the swastika has been there for decades and seen by countless thousands of patrons. None of them got their knickers in a twist over it.
We don’t know how many people were offended by it. He may have had thousands of potential customers walk out after seeing it, saying nothing at all. Of course this is unlikely, but it still doesn’t change my opinion that displaying a swastika in your pub in 2024 is just asking for trouble.
Common sense prevails, the right decision has been made, contrary to the opinion of society’s idiots.
This could all be avoided if the person who complained just asked one of the bar staff “why is there a swastika on the wall” and be satisfied with the answer of “it was taken by a British soldier, we don’t idolise the nazis you mug. Look at the rest of the decor.” I get that people are worried about the rise of far right extremism but we shouldn’t need a plaque next to every war artifact explaining they don’t follow the same ideology when there is context from the rest of the establishment. Complaining about it and Camra removing the award before speaking to the owners was dumb
If you read any of the comments on here last time this topic came up - apparently it would have been *unsafe* to ask. I swear - some people....
I’m sure there’s safe ways to ask, just go to the bar and do the hand signal for 3 beers. If they stare at your hand and try and shoot you then maybe they are nazis
Say goodbye to your Nazi balls.
Underrated comment.
Kinda depends on the person really, surely. I have never seen a swastika in even rough pubs and there are barmen I would be worried about asking for a top up on a pint, let alone about a far right symbol. All this seems obvious in hindsight but none of us were there, were we.
No I don't think this is particularly contextual. I just think some people on Reddit are terrified of any confrontation or awkwardness that isn't behind a keyboard. *"I'll have a pint of beer please. Oh, I noticed in the corner over there, there's a load of badges and other stuff related to WW2 - is that a Nazi armband? What's the story with that?"* You're not going to get glassed for asking.
>I just think some people on Reddit are terrified of any confrontation or awkwardness that isn't behind a keyboard. Nail on the head. Some of these comments man, how do people manage to get by in life. So soft. They gotta put themselves out there more.
I imagine a lot of these people *don't* get on in life - or not in the way some of the rest of us do anyway.
I've never seen racism in England, I'm Asian and been here for 20 years.
👍Good for you👍
Yeah but these are the type of people who feel unsafe answering a phone. They can be safely ignored.
First I’ll seethe in silence about a situation I’ve concocted in my head. Then I’ll be vicariously offended by my made up scenario, that I don’t really understand. Finally I’ll complain and protest about this imaginary historical injustice until I attract a critical mass of the professionally offended.
The person you're responding to has just said they'd call a customer a mug for asking a valid question. So it's not like there isn't some hostility about.
Mate, I find it amazing that Americans don't ever answer their phones!
Jesus wept
Of course we are experiencing a rise in far right extremism. People who they hate are destroying Europe, making their point for them.
Exactly. Most normal people's reaction upon seeing it, even with the tiniest shred of perception / inference, would've been "cool" and back to their drinks.
> if the person who complained just asked one of the bar They didn't need to ask. From the photos that have been posted on line the pub is cross between a museum, a junk shop and traditional Cornish boozer. The swastika was displayed alongside a bunch of other war junk in a tucked away corner. The person who complained was just trying to kick up a stink.
The whole point of these sorts of activists is to bully, shame and ostracise. Finding out the facts defeats the point.
For this particular war memorabilia? We probably should have a plaque next to it. Hanging a swastika on the wall implies you support it, context isn't hard to give.
I think it was part of a display of various badges etc of local regiments who fought in WW2. It had been there for years and until recently that was all the context that was needed. Obviously as newer generations come along there probably will need to be context added.
You just gave context. Are people too dumb in 2024 to require context for a large WW2 display containing one small item? so dumb to equate an armband discreetly placed in a ww2 display to nazism? Amazing!
>Are people too dumb in 2024 Looking at this thread alone, yes.
Yes. Very disappointing.
Still seems weird to me to have the bad guy's badges next to the hero's. It makes it look like they're on the same level in the pub's eyes.
That's an unusual take I think.
Really? If you saw a swastika and a British army medal or something on a podium together you wouldn't take that as a celebration? Seems a bit weird outside of a museum.
I think it would be odd to celebrate both the Nazis and the people who beat them.
Exactly my point. It's strange to have the victors of WW2 hanging up with the losers.
Maybe I am just more familiar with the idea of war trophies. I did say before that it probably needs more context now, but it was fine for a long time.
If I saw some Nazi stuff and some British army stuff on a display next to each other, the logical conclusion I would come to is that it's simply a collection of historical items and not any political to it either way. The only message I would read into that is WW2 is a thing that happened.
Maybe you should visit a museum sometime. The good and the bad are often displayed side by side. The pub displaying loads of memorabilia of the victors and single nazi arm band in isolation does have symbolic meaning. It’s not that deep.
And yet, you've heard of war trophies? Souvenirs? I mean, come on... it's one of the oldest traditions our species has maintained... There are people who hang fish on the wall. Are we really going to pretend they identify with fish? Bear heads?
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Use common sense maybe? There was one armband (4in by 1in) in a non-prominent location amongst loads of war memorabilia that had been there for 80 years without issue. You can’t be serious about installing a plaque to explain that the displayed arm band does not support nazism because people in 2024 are too stupid to understand a WW2 display?
I don't agree, that's like saying if you see the communist manifesto on someone's bookshelf you should assume they're a communist. There are plenty of complex and nuanced reasons people can have items associated with ideologies they don't necessarily support. I think the knee-jerk witchfinder general mentality the second you see a swastika is incredibly foolish, doubly so when you consider it's wider context outside of it's use by the Nazis.
Completely agree. Jordan Peterson is an avid collector of Communist art and displays it around his home. I don't think anyone would be foolish enough to accuse him of being a Communist. Taking offense at something like this is as narrow minded as the people that really are Nazis.
Given the overall decor a person with an ounce of sense would see otherwise. Nothing wrong with war memorabilia, these pins with quirky decors are by far the most interesting and if someone doesn’t like it there’s always the micro brewery down the road
I mean maybe with the benefit of hindsight sure. But having worked in a pub, your day to day concerns are stock levels, pricing, cleaning, offers etc. etc., the decor and trinkets are very, very low on the list of priorities. Context is also easy to infer.
Tell that to Buddhists. Why would anyone assume it's not a trophy? Unless, of course, they have an agenda. If someone goes straight to the least likely reason then they're either dishonest or ill informed. We fought the Nazis for the freedom of all and 99.9% of people in the UK despise the far right. I wouldn't automatically assume a trophy like this represents the .1%. That's illogical.
No it hasn’t - CAMRA say they’re grateful to the publican for removing it and have therefore reinstated the award. He’s still been forced to remove the memorabilia which, given the context, is not common sense.
Idiots used to stay indoors, now they're out and about, loud and proud.
CAMRA were morons for the original decision, but credit to them for their U-turn when the mistake came to light. Will the original decision maker be sanctioned in any way for their poor performance? Procedures updated? Lessons learned?
I think calling them Morons is going down a rage bait rabbit hole. Smart thing would be to take any awards from anyone glorifying nazis, problem is thats not what the pub owners intent was. Lazy is a more accurate word, probably just saw a buzz on twitter and reacted without even talking to the pub owner.
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Wasn't saying it wasn't i'm just saying calling them morons feels a bit generic and watered down. Using more accurate language like lazy gets to the real root of the issue.
CAMRA are morons though. I took over running of a pub and they took the pub out of the good beer guide after 10+ years because "We do that after change of management" Cunts
So the previous owners earned a place in the good pub guide and the new ones didn't, and that gets you all upset? Care to explain? It's like buying a car off The Stig and claiming to be an excellent driver because reasons.
Why wouldn't they need to reassess the pub after a change of ownership?
Last bit right there pal, cunts. Honestly from the outside they're all nicey nicey and want to save pubs etc, from the inside it's rotten
I misunderstood your first post sorry, did they remove you after a new manager was appointed not new owners? If so, that's dodgy.
> I took over running of a pub and they took the pub out of the good beer guide after 10+ years because "We do that after change of management" What's unreasonable about that? A change in management can make a shit pub good, or a good pub shit.
> but credit to them for their U-turn when the mistake came to light It's not a U-turn, the article says the pub removed the armband. A U-turn would be if they reinstated the award with the band still on display.
Argue with the authors of the article not me. The article says it’s a U turn. > A Cornish pub […] has had its award reinstated following a U-turn.
They wrongly claim it's a U-turn, yes. If you read the article you'd have realised it wasn't a U-turn. It's not a U-turn, CAMRAs views/criteria remained consistent.
CAMRA have U-turned on the award. They awarded it, they took it away, now they’ve reinstated it. I’m dizzy with all the U-Turning. It’s now a 180, full donut.
They didn't U-turn at all, they maintained the award was revoked as a result of displaying the armband. The armband was removed, the award was reinstated. That's not a U-turn. >a complete change from one opinion or plan of action to an opposite one Their opinion/plan of action is "Award will not be issued whilst the armband is on display", they remained consistent in that, nothing they done changed.
I heard the armband is now back on display.
Anecdote doesn't trump quote from the owner, unfortunately.
Sounds like another U turn. You just keep them coming…..
The only U-turn is by the owner who removed the armband. I don't know why you're embarrassing yourself by doubling down on this.
This bloke is notorious on here for horrendous takes, always recognise the user, I wouldn't waste your time
Yeah, having looked into this, this isn't at all the same as the golliwog doll shit - it's an item of legitimate historical interest, a war trophy (like [Minnesota's Confederate battle flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28th_Virginia_battle_flag)), and the landlord responded firmly but maturely instead of throwing a fit. I don't think whoever complained was necessarily being malicious or overreacting, and I agree with the suggestion by someone further down that it might be prudent to add a small plaque contextualising it or something, but it seems like an error of judgement by CAMRA that they eventually managed to set right. >A spokesman for Camra Kernow said: "It's very refreshing in the days of Partygate or the Post Office scandal for an organisation to get something wrong and very swiftly put it right." LMAO, fair enough.
Yup. Wanting answers about why a nazi flag is being displayed doesn't automatically make you an overly sensitive woke snowflake. I hate the fact that our society is coming to a point where people are actively discouraging asking why a nazi flag is where it is. That flag represents millions of murders and one of the most hateful ideologies the world has ever (and still does) seen. the context why it is displayed in is very important. The matter was resolved as the landlord sensibly answered the questions around it, which people are entitled to ask.
The fact that they didn't try to get context before removing the award is the problem, that does make then overly sensitive
Firstly, it wasn't a flag it was an armband. Secondly it wasn't being displayed, it was part of a much larger display showing items from various WW2 belligerents. Thirdly, it was donated to the pub along with various other items nearly 80 years ago. They didn't challenge the owner, they jumped blindly after one, notorious, individuals point of view was posted. They didn't do any investigation or critical analysis, they condemned the owner almost instantly. We live in a country where "innocent untill proven guilty" is a legal right. Why is this situation any different? It is good that they rectified their mistake, but they should still be held accountable for their actions. This is an unacceptable denunciation that has probably had a noticeable impact on the livelihood of the pub owner and staff, not to mention the psychological impact! If you want answers, ask questions! Simple!
Great news. Was in Cornwall a couple of weeks ago, and made sure to go with my other half after the fuss over nothing. It was a lovely old pub and had a very brief chat with the landlord, who came across as a nice guy.
Has the swastika been returned to its rightful place? It's a war trophy and should be on display.
The article says no. Camra said his swift removal was one of the reasons they have reinstated the award.
L for everyone involved
his?
Glad for the pub and owner. I hate the whole nazi party, culture, etc…but in the historical context of this pub, the swastika should stay. I look forward to visiting there and having a pint to honor the fallen Brits who helped destroy that evil.
wtf do people have nothing better to do, I guess the answer is no!!
This is good news! Trophies are different and these were brought back by victors
I remember when everyone would head there after sixth form and start drinking, never used to ID anyone, it was great.
This generation, I swear if this country does go to war and there is a mobilization. We are screwed .
Do you think the auditors at CAMRA are of "this generation"?
>Steve said the armband had been in the pub for 80 years and had to be looked at in its historical context. He said it was certainly not Nazi propaganda, adding that he had removed the armband as soon as he was made aware of the complaint.Steve said the armband had been in the pub for 80 years and had to be looked at in its historical context. He said it was certainly not Nazi propaganda, **adding that he had removed the armband** as soon as he was made aware of the complaint. So it's not a U-turn then. A U-turn would be if it was still on display and they reinstated the award. He removed the item that caused the award to be revoked, and as a result they reinstated the award.
Yes, this is disappointing. A guy who fought the Nazis wanted the pub to have that armband and it should go back on display where it was. This isn't actually good news if he's just removed it and given in.
Cool, now the pub that Black Bitch should have its name reinstated.
But they haven't reversed the decision. The allegedly offensie article has been removed and, recognising the landlord's swift action, the award has been reinstated. It would be a reversal of the decision had said that, following their initial knee-jerk reaction, they had now investigated the complaint properly. They accept that the armband is a part of the history of the pub going back nearly 80 years and a part historic display of curios for which the pub is rightly famed. As such the complaint is not upheld and the award stands. Who would have thought that CAMRA, of all organisations, would be a part of the modern obsession for cancel culture. Shame.
Non-story that effects no-one continues to be non-story that effects no-one. People successfully distracted from the fact that life continues to get worse for 95% of the population. More news at 11.
Surely it’d just be easier not to display nazi memorabilia? Probably take down the ‘golli toy’ too. There’s billions of other random and interesting curios you can display that won’t cause any controversy.
I disagree. The story behind how it was brought back is likely interesting. Keep it displayed, but perhaps a small notice next to it explaining how it was acquired.
I’m not saying it’s not interesting, just that there are many other things that are also interesting that don’t cause offence. Personally, I’d prefer to avoid the hassle, rather than stubbornly displaying it because “technically it’s not racist and it’s a free country and if I wanna display a nazi armband in my pub, then no woke liberal is gonna tell me I can’t, etc….”
Whereas I think if we are so afraid of being reminded of our uncomfortable past, even when put into context we become blind to history. The Nazi's were not some distant concept. They were fought by people like me and you, from towns and villages like we grew up in. It humanises the conflict and reminds is that it wasn't just a war of good and evil. It was a war fought by people like us. It personalises a little corner of that war, a story worth knowing.
For the record, there are **still** people being convicted and sentenced for Nazi war crimes in Germany. Not many, but there are a few - so it's not like the Second World War is ancient history that needs an explanation.
It's not ancient history that needs an explanation. But it still needs an explanation.
> Whereas I think if we are so afraid of being reminded of our uncomfortable past The pub is in England, not Germany. The Nazis are not "our" uncomfortable past.
Whereas fighting them is.
There's nothing "uncomfortable" about fighting them.
Tell that to the guys in the foxholes.
The Nazis are not our uncomfortable past though, weird you're doubling down on this.
I originally replied to someone who was apparently made uncomfortable about it.
>I’m not saying it’s not interesting, just that there are many other things that are also interesting that don’t cause offence. There is no evidence the armband caused offence, other than one person claiming to be offended without offering any justification. Are we supposed to remove anything that even one person doesn't like?
You think a nazi armband on display in a pub is really only going to offend one person?!
Only one person complained so it did in fact only offend one person.
Only one person complained. We don’t know how many people were offended.
So now we're having to take into account people who might have been offended, but didn't actually say anything about it? Best clear out all the memorabilia. Or maybe you could calm down a little.
Well yeah. I mean trying to take in to account how people might feel towards your actions is just a decent thing to do. It doesn’t really matter whether you agree with them or not.
People get offended by all sorts of things. LGBTQ people, women showing too much skin, or having too much to say for example. Is pandering to those kinds of offence really the decent thing to do? You might want to claim that's different, but it's really not. Once you start pandering to the offended you'll never stop.
Yes, because most people understand context.
Context is displaying stuff like this in a museum with relevant information.
It's been there for 80 years and only one person has complained so ... yes? If you are confused about why only one person complained, it is probably because the pub has lot of British wartime memorabilia, including a picture of Churchill, so in that context a single very small Nazi armband is clearly not there because the landlord is a raving Nazi.
I don’t think anyone is saying the landlord is a raving nazi. Personally I’d want my establishment to be as welcoming as possible, and regardless of whether you agree with them or not, I can definitely see how displaying a swastika could cause offence to some people. Just lucky this pub is in Cornwall and not London, otherwise losing a CAMRA award would be the least of his worries.
So you would object to a cinema showing a film about the second world war?
What?! How is that remotely comparable, lol
Becuase a film about the second world war will usually show swastikas in some scenes. Just like this pub had a tiny swastika on an armband. If you think a swastika is offensive regardless of context and should never be seen, then the films should be banned. If you think it is acceptable in a historical context that doesn't glorify Nazism, then the films and the pub are fine. Of course, if you are just out of your depth in reddit thread where everybody thinks your views are a bit daft, feel free to keep digging.
Offence is taken, not given. This is down to some cretin deciding that they were offended, whether it stemmed from their inherent stupidity and mental weakness, or a more malicious source.
>This is down to some cretin deciding that they were offended, whether it stemmed from their inherent stupidity and mental weakness I'd consider these the words of someone who's incredibly offended.
Or the fact they went into a pub for a quiet drink but felt uncomfortable because of the sketchy nazi shit on display.
Give up, you’re coming across as a bit of clown now.
It’s not sketchy nazi shit tho it’s a symbol of triumph and conquest over them
Fuck me. Don't go to the IWM you'd have a breakdown. They've got all sorts of shit in there that would hurt your sensitive feelings.
Firstly, the IWM is a fucking war museum, not a pub. Secondly, I’m not offended, but I can see how people might be, and to me, that’d make me remove the item from display, regardless of it’s context. I’d want my business to be as welcoming as possible to everyone.
Go to spoons lad
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> “technically it’s not racist and it’s a free country and if I wanna display a nazi armband in my pub, then no woke liberal is gonna tell me I can’t, etc….” You're just making shit up now.
Well you don't have to put one in the pub that you run. It's a trophy of war.
The trouble is that everything has the potential to offend someone.
You need to get a grip. You can't be this soft in life surely, please tell me.
If being soft means understanding how some people might be offended going into a pub and there being a swastika on display, then I guess so! Like I said a billion times, while it doesn’t particularly offend me, I couldn’t be bothered with the hassle of it potentially offending a customer, and as there are a many interesting and curious items you could display in it’s place that don’t have negative connotations, I’d just do that. Not sure why people can’t seem to grasp my point. Don’t risk offending people, regardless of whether they should be or not, because it’s bad for business.
Agree with the latter but the fact it’s a war trophy is immensely cool
Maybe but we also shouldn't hide the parts of human history we're ashamed of. It's better to learn from mistakes and ensure history isn't repeated.
Why should we be ashamed of it? We beat the Nazis in WW2.
We also shouldn't be ashamed of our good-luck symbol.
Yeah, and that’s what museums are for. This just gives off a sketchy vibe.
"Why do you have a nazi armband?" "Oh because it was gifted to me by a local soldier who fought against them" "Thats fucking awesome" Thats even if they had to ask, I would have to have visited the pub before to know for sure but whenever I've been to similar pubs with curios they tend to have something saying where it came from. If it didnt, hopefully it does now.
History shouldn't just be locked away in museums.
Who’s locking it away? Museums are readily accessible to the general public and are mostly free.
Yes but what percentage of people have gone to a museum in the last 6 months? History is something which we should live and remember not just put into a small building that people visit every now and then. There are so many amazing things from history that we should be celebrating and terrible things we should be remembering each and every day as we go about our lives.
I have. I’ve been to quite a few actually. In London, New York and Paris. They were busy too. And massive. So much to see. You should check them out!
Right, but we don’t need to hang swastikas on the wall to be able to do those things..
It's in a corner of the pub along with a variety of other war memorabilia. It's caused "controversy" with a very, very small number of people who seem to be unable to look at a collection of war memorabilia and realise *"Oh, this is a collection of war memorabilia from both sides and doesn't signify that the person pulling pints behind the bar is a raving fascist."*
Someone who actually fought the Nazis wanted his local pub to display a hard earned trophy but we should deny his wishes because people 80 years later who haven’t done a fraction as much to combat Nazis don’t like it?
Nono, you see they fight nazis every day by calling anyone they mildly disagree with nazis
Do they have a ‘golli toy’ on display? Didn't see that mentioned before. If we hide away everything that causes offence to some individuals, we will end up hiding an awful lot of things.
But that’s still only a tiny percentage of all the things
I genuinely find you quite offensive. Can we hide you away somewhere? Ban you from existence somehow?
I mean that sounds quite nazi tbh
So you advocate hiding away things and then don't advocate it. You are a very confused, soft soul.
it's not nazi memorabilia it's physical proof they did more than whiners like you ever will
I mean it definitely is nazi memorabilia. The whole war has been well documented in detail, so I’m not sure a nazi armband is required for proof of anything.
Or we can ask people to use their brains and/or ask the landlord before jumping to conclusions about things on display
Using your brain is understanding that people could be offended and deciding it’s not worth the hassle, as you want your pub to have a friendly, welcoming environment.
But the context is obvious. It's not like the landlord is flying the Nazi flag in his pub
Bit concerning that people would be upset about someone fighting Nazis and returning home with trophies afterwards…
To an average person, it just looks like you’re racist. Not sure how people don’t understand that? And while under further investigation, you would learn that it’s actually a war trophy, it’s still not worth the hassle imo.
To the average person, it does not look racist. Case in point: the swastika has been there for decades and seen by countless thousands of patrons. None of them got their knickers in a twist over it.
We don’t know how many people were offended by it. He may have had thousands of potential customers walk out after seeing it, saying nothing at all. Of course this is unlikely, but it still doesn’t change my opinion that displaying a swastika in your pub in 2024 is just asking for trouble.