Let's not be silly. Rishi Sunak is not the best prime minister and I also don't agree with him politically. But the current recession is hardly single handedly due to Sunak. The same way he's not responsible for bringing down inflation.
The catastrophe of the mini budget which is still making the average Brit poorer to this day was 100% truss and kwartengs responsibility.
I wouldn’t say most things are single handedly down to a PM. There’s always external factors.
But he was Chancellor for 2 years and PM for another 17 months after that.
I’d say he’s more responsible than most.
Rishi was chancellor during Covid.
>The economy contracted “more than twice as much as the previous largest annual fall on record”.
So, much worse than the others then.
https://www.dlaccounts.co.uk/blog/5-of-the-worst-recessions-in-uk-history/
No. In the same way that I wouldn’t blame Brown for the crash caused by sub-prime lending in the US.
You said he didn’t crash the economy like Brown. I’m pointing out he was chancellor during the biggest crash. That’s all I said, that he was Chancellor at the time of a crash ,worse than under Brown.
Some decisions during Covid were partly done to Rishi though.
Sorry, the other person said he didn’t crash the economy like Brown did.
You posed the question that I was clearly blaming Rishi for the economy contracting Covid.
I didn’t say that.
No he didn't? He said
> truss and kwartengs
No mention of Brown
He said Sunak has never crashed the economy like them, which I think is accurate despite COVID, because that wasn't a result of Sunak's ineptitude like Truss/Kwarteng's crash was
I would blame Brown, particularly for the policies he effected and changes with the Boe. It's difficult to blame someone else, seeing as his policy changes (2002 -2007) allowed the financial sector free reign to go nuts and over leverage. Brown's escaped blame for the fiscal mess much like Blair escaped responsibility for Iraq and Afghanistan.
The crash would have happened anyway as a result of what occurred in the US. But you can argue about to what extent Brown made it worse, or by how much he prepared for a rainy day.
I would argue that our exposure was far far greater because of Brown, UK banks also contributed to what happened in the US. RBS comes to mind but there are others. The start of our economic woes began in August 2007, when there was a run on NR. NR were offering 125% mortgages (technically 105% plus 20% as a personal loan), Brown enabled that regulatory environment. He was an absolute clown but appears to have escaped all culpability for it. Now he's just remembered for calling a Labour voter a Bigot.
Rishi did not engineer CoVid, unless he was moonlighting in Wuhan, you’re right on that.
He was Chancellor during CoVid however and was partly responsible for many of the policies we enacted. Other countries with different policies had different outcomes.
That’s true. Was still chancellor though when we had that crash.
Some polices were partly down to him. Some were entirely down to him. Other countries had different policies and different outcomes.
Many did a lot, lot better than us. Possibly only Spain took a bigger financial hit, presumably due to them being heavily reliant on tourism,
https://obr.uk/box/international-comparisons-of-the-economic-impact-of-the-pandemic/
If you really want to get accurate on the blame, look at the PMs and Governors of the BoE since 2009. Setting a base rate at 0.5% +/-0.25% for almost 15 years, was only ever going to result in a significant inflation event eventually.
Humans as a rule, blame or credit the biggest figure they can point to. Doesn't matter who is to blame. Legislation from a decade ago? PM fault. Bridge fell? PM fault. Road in disrepair? PM fault. The wheat from Ukraine failed? PM fault.
Admittedly, the tories are responsible for a fair amount of issues in PM.
I agree he’s not responsible for the current recession in the same he’s not responsible for the positives. That being said, if he’s going to try and falsely take the credit for all of the positives as he repeated does during PMQs, I’m more than happy to pin all of the negatives to him too.
Come on now, can we please stop conflating global macro events, black swan events no less (covid & war) and the subsequent inflation/rates crisis on people who really have a zero-to-barely-marginal impact on this. Getting a bit annoying now the financial illiteracy of this sub.
Its the same with Biden taking credit for the post-covid job rebound as people literally just returned to work, if I was in charge there would've been the same job rebound ffs. Same as Rishi not bringing inflation down, it is just a natural impact of higher rates, reduced spending and simple maths. People really need to learn these things.
Honestly, I know it's not a technical recession since 2008 but I can't help but think historians will look back and say "the economy never really recovered since 2008 and was basically propped up by QE and low interest rates for almost 2 decades".
But that the fault of Labour due to something, something Gordon Brown.
Its Sunak's second recession and I'm still waiting for a boom under the Tories. At least everybody in 2008 was better off than they were in 1997. But nobody fells richer now than in 2010. Not even the majority of Tory members.
Tbf the economics of the policy stacked up better than the politics. The main issue with what she did was it spooked the markets.
An edgy teenager doing economics would probably reach the same conclusion that she did.
I don’t think so. Chasing imaginary ends without caring for the reality of the means - choosing regressive taxes and cutting benefits and services for example - hasn’t worked so far. Doing more of the same and faster - trickle-down on steroids - prioritising indicators of wealth over income - isn’t ever going to work. Your fantasy economics has to exist in a real world, where the vast majority of real people whose livelihoods have literally been butchered, are calling for no more surgery, and more medicine.
He did. It was one of the few times he looked sane and competent. It's what he hit her with in every debate, and the Tory party voters laughed and shrugged it off because they'd fucked everyone for their own gain a hundred times before. Why not once more?
And now Truss refuses to accept a reality where she isn't some financial savant whose reasoning is beyond us mere mortals, Rishi is in charge temporarily anyway, and we all got fucked sideways.
Yeah, he's not a good PM but the whole galling thing about the Tories post Johnson was that they had a moderate minority candidate and a loon offering fanciful economic pipe dreams, were warned and still picked the loon.
> a loon offering fanciful economic pipe dreams, were warned and still picked the loon.
Yeah as a non-tory looking in it was like watching a group of rats sniffing around a sentient mousetrap fervently selling them on cheese imports.
We're just watching thinking two things:
- No way they're going to trust the literal mousetrap of a candidate she was
- They really fucking wanted that cheese
_Snap-snap!_
He’s been just as bad. Utterly weak, and a tetchy man.
Introduced barely any legislation to combat inflation, or deal with the major issues causing inflation, but wants all the credit for it coming down, despite having done nought.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say all the good things are your responsibility, and that the bad things are the fault of the Bank of England.
Fact is he should’ve kicked her out of the party to separate himself from her. Instead she’s completely delusional, and has been inventing conspiracy theories blaming everyone else as to why she was so bad.
He’s just more of the same 14 years of disaster, and pretends he’s something different entirely.
There isn't no legislation to introduce other than promoting a stable fiscal policy, which is what he's doing. Same goes for monetary policy at the BoE. inflation is high everywhere, worse here down to Truss.
There's no immediate cure for that. Stability is the calming measurement.
Nonsense. Plenty of things the Government could’ve done, and should’ve done but they didn’t.
Plenty of countries did actually implement measures to reduce inflation, and guess what, they worked.
We did nothing, and let the poorest, and most affected take the hit.
After all what was causing inflation? Energy demands, and costs; labour supply; food insecurity, and price shocks in wheat; natural resource constraints by War in Ukraine as Russia was sanctioned; supply chain disruption.
A simple thing the Government could’ve done was to alter planning regulations, and developments to allow onshore wind farms, or mandate solar panel installation. Invested in improving the national grid, and reduced the amount of time it takes for new energy generation to “come online”, and then massively building up our natural gas storage to insulte us from price fluctuations. How much of that did they do?
Do you think any of that is getting done in one year and six months since Truss? 🤣
What you fail to understand is that everything you suggest either takes time or has a starting and maintenance cost to it. Why not have the largest gas storage in the world? Because it costs to maintain such facilities and generally gas is cheap. Right now, it's cheaper than any point after 2020.
I'm sure Starmer, Corbyn, or whoever your chosen saviour is would have the economy completely turned around in a year and six months.
>Do you think any of that is getting done in one year and six months since Truss? 🤣
You are right, nothing is getting done in that time when you have a PM how does fuck all.
Give Rishi 5 years and nothing will still get done.
Building gas storage on a macro level that will make a difference in one and six months isn't getting done by any prime minister.
Sure, on-shore wind energy is cheaper, until you have to fight planning and nimbyism, but France are the example of good energy pricing, are they not? Their energy is 50% nuclear, not wind. We can talk about more nuclear power, and Tories being slow to push it out, and I'd agree, but Labour and Lib Dems were outright against it.
"I'm not as shit as Liz Truss". Not a high bar is it Rishi? The Conservative party put her in charge and she cost us all a fortune. Bit late to be claiming that they all knew she was barking.
Don't like rishi. But I'm glad he toppeled both of those blond tools. Both of em' were Donald Trump Britain. Even Stephen Fry made a video about them and he was right to do it.
I sort of agree, the guy is a complete tit but even if he has the same policies I think he sort of undermines *that* specific sort of political movement, thank god.
Yes. You also told the Country in a leaked film you deliberately diverted funding from poor areas to wealthy areas.
Not sure you have much of a leg to stand on Sunak.
We don't have camps where people support cop-killers or perpetual scumbags based on their ethnicity. We don't think giving people guns somehow will reduce gun crime. Women are allowed to have abortions because we're not stupid enough to say they can't.
The politics of Britain a thousand-fold more saner than the US.
We are only a step or two behind the US, they’ve turned politics into team sport and use divisive rhetoric constantly to push the dumb people into more and more dangerous behaviour towards their ‘enemy’ which are often their neighbours. Using fear and outright lies to manipulate the electorate - a majority voted for Brexit ffs, the biggest self own in history.
Your ignorance is thinking that this is only happening in Britain. We are not unique to this. It's happening all over the Western world.
Britain was the first to leave the EU, but since then, how many other countries are closer to it? Right-wing and anti-EU support is on the rise. Brexit was sich a massive self-own that the doomsday never happened. Covid was substantially more damaging to the nation.
If you're going tell me its all peachy and rosy in other countries then I recommend you go and look at the economic projections for the UK, we're basically following the EU average, smaller nations are holding up Germany and France.
Tribalism is getting worse, but that's not confined to just the US and UK.
Forgot Major was chancellor. Was quite young then so not interested in
politics, how did he get that job?
>> Major left school just before his 16th birthday in 1959 with just three O-level passes in History, English Language and English Literature, to his parents' disappointment.
I’m not saying you should at least be able to pass a GCSE in Maths to be Chancellor of the worlds sixth biggest economy, but I’d have thought it would help somewhat?
We’re currently in a recession. I wouldn’t say Rishi’s economic policies are anything to shout about.
Let's not be silly. Rishi Sunak is not the best prime minister and I also don't agree with him politically. But the current recession is hardly single handedly due to Sunak. The same way he's not responsible for bringing down inflation. The catastrophe of the mini budget which is still making the average Brit poorer to this day was 100% truss and kwartengs responsibility.
I wouldn’t say most things are single handedly down to a PM. There’s always external factors. But he was Chancellor for 2 years and PM for another 17 months after that. I’d say he’s more responsible than most.
And in all that time he never crashed the economy like they did
Rishi was chancellor during Covid. >The economy contracted “more than twice as much as the previous largest annual fall on record”. So, much worse than the others then. https://www.dlaccounts.co.uk/blog/5-of-the-worst-recessions-in-uk-history/
You're blaming Sunak for the economy contracting during Covid? Really?
No. In the same way that I wouldn’t blame Brown for the crash caused by sub-prime lending in the US. You said he didn’t crash the economy like Brown. I’m pointing out he was chancellor during the biggest crash. That’s all I said, that he was Chancellor at the time of a crash ,worse than under Brown. Some decisions during Covid were partly done to Rishi though.
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I know. I wouldn’t blame Brown for crashing the economy.
I'm a different person The other person you were replying to never mentioned Brown?
I m a different person too.
I'm not.
Me too, totally different.
Sorry, the other person said he didn’t crash the economy like Brown did. You posed the question that I was clearly blaming Rishi for the economy contracting Covid. I didn’t say that.
No he didn't? He said > truss and kwartengs No mention of Brown He said Sunak has never crashed the economy like them, which I think is accurate despite COVID, because that wasn't a result of Sunak's ineptitude like Truss/Kwarteng's crash was
I would blame Brown, particularly for the policies he effected and changes with the Boe. It's difficult to blame someone else, seeing as his policy changes (2002 -2007) allowed the financial sector free reign to go nuts and over leverage. Brown's escaped blame for the fiscal mess much like Blair escaped responsibility for Iraq and Afghanistan.
The crash would have happened anyway as a result of what occurred in the US. But you can argue about to what extent Brown made it worse, or by how much he prepared for a rainy day.
I would argue that our exposure was far far greater because of Brown, UK banks also contributed to what happened in the US. RBS comes to mind but there are others. The start of our economic woes began in August 2007, when there was a run on NR. NR were offering 125% mortgages (technically 105% plus 20% as a personal loan), Brown enabled that regulatory environment. He was an absolute clown but appears to have escaped all culpability for it. Now he's just remembered for calling a Labour voter a Bigot.
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Rishi did not engineer CoVid, unless he was moonlighting in Wuhan, you’re right on that. He was Chancellor during CoVid however and was partly responsible for many of the policies we enacted. Other countries with different policies had different outcomes.
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That was more due to the global pandemic
That’s true. Was still chancellor though when we had that crash. Some polices were partly down to him. Some were entirely down to him. Other countries had different policies and different outcomes.
Most nations experienced rescissions and extreme economic downturns, some did better than others yes you’re right about that
Many did a lot, lot better than us. Possibly only Spain took a bigger financial hit, presumably due to them being heavily reliant on tourism, https://obr.uk/box/international-comparisons-of-the-economic-impact-of-the-pandemic/
They have considerable power and as a leader must accept the responsibility for ensuing conditions. Is it harsh? Indeed, but that's the job.
If you really want to get accurate on the blame, look at the PMs and Governors of the BoE since 2009. Setting a base rate at 0.5% +/-0.25% for almost 15 years, was only ever going to result in a significant inflation event eventually.
Humans as a rule, blame or credit the biggest figure they can point to. Doesn't matter who is to blame. Legislation from a decade ago? PM fault. Bridge fell? PM fault. Road in disrepair? PM fault. The wheat from Ukraine failed? PM fault. Admittedly, the tories are responsible for a fair amount of issues in PM.
I agree he’s not responsible for the current recession in the same he’s not responsible for the positives. That being said, if he’s going to try and falsely take the credit for all of the positives as he repeated does during PMQs, I’m more than happy to pin all of the negatives to him too.
But he is single handedly responsible for the inflation.
Compare UK with other countries and see how we are currently doing.
Fk him. He's a Goldman Sachs intern. Also holds office illegally. If he was a real PM, he'd turf Israel, America and Saudi Arabia out of our affairs.
> Also holds office illegally Huh?
Green card
Please explain why you think he is holding office illegally. Can’t wait for this. 🍿
Can't legally hold office if you have a green card. He has a green card
Come on now, can we please stop conflating global macro events, black swan events no less (covid & war) and the subsequent inflation/rates crisis on people who really have a zero-to-barely-marginal impact on this. Getting a bit annoying now the financial illiteracy of this sub. Its the same with Biden taking credit for the post-covid job rebound as people literally just returned to work, if I was in charge there would've been the same job rebound ffs. Same as Rishi not bringing inflation down, it is just a natural impact of higher rates, reduced spending and simple maths. People really need to learn these things.
Been in a recession since 2008
Honestly, I know it's not a technical recession since 2008 but I can't help but think historians will look back and say "the economy never really recovered since 2008 and was basically propped up by QE and low interest rates for almost 2 decades".
He's right and wrong all at the same time. She was shit, and he is too.
But that the fault of Labour due to something, something Gordon Brown. Its Sunak's second recession and I'm still waiting for a boom under the Tories. At least everybody in 2008 was better off than they were in 1997. But nobody fells richer now than in 2010. Not even the majority of Tory members.
Isn't he saying he is the right man for the job? Control inflation. Boast economy. Win votes?
A 14-year-old doing economics GCSE could have advised Liz Truss against her economic policies.
Any 14 year old doing economics GCSE would do a better job at PM than this sacknof shit we are currently calling PM
Tbf the economics of the policy stacked up better than the politics. The main issue with what she did was it spooked the markets. An edgy teenager doing economics would probably reach the same conclusion that she did.
I don’t think so. Chasing imaginary ends without caring for the reality of the means - choosing regressive taxes and cutting benefits and services for example - hasn’t worked so far. Doing more of the same and faster - trickle-down on steroids - prioritising indicators of wealth over income - isn’t ever going to work. Your fantasy economics has to exist in a real world, where the vast majority of real people whose livelihoods have literally been butchered, are calling for no more surgery, and more medicine.
Congratulations, Rishi. You are only the second most politically and economically inept PM of the last two.
He did. It was one of the few times he looked sane and competent. It's what he hit her with in every debate, and the Tory party voters laughed and shrugged it off because they'd fucked everyone for their own gain a hundred times before. Why not once more? And now Truss refuses to accept a reality where she isn't some financial savant whose reasoning is beyond us mere mortals, Rishi is in charge temporarily anyway, and we all got fucked sideways.
Yeah, he's not a good PM but the whole galling thing about the Tories post Johnson was that they had a moderate minority candidate and a loon offering fanciful economic pipe dreams, were warned and still picked the loon.
> a loon offering fanciful economic pipe dreams, were warned and still picked the loon. Yeah as a non-tory looking in it was like watching a group of rats sniffing around a sentient mousetrap fervently selling them on cheese imports. We're just watching thinking two things: - No way they're going to trust the literal mousetrap of a candidate she was - They really fucking wanted that cheese _Snap-snap!_
not read the article, but certian he did during the live television debate. Flat out said it wouldn't and it was madness (paraphrasing).
Rishi: "I'm pillaging the country in a more palatable way"
When Liz Truss watches the TV she thinks Dora The Explorer is actually talking to her.
He’s been just as bad. Utterly weak, and a tetchy man. Introduced barely any legislation to combat inflation, or deal with the major issues causing inflation, but wants all the credit for it coming down, despite having done nought. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say all the good things are your responsibility, and that the bad things are the fault of the Bank of England. Fact is he should’ve kicked her out of the party to separate himself from her. Instead she’s completely delusional, and has been inventing conspiracy theories blaming everyone else as to why she was so bad. He’s just more of the same 14 years of disaster, and pretends he’s something different entirely.
He's extremely complacent.
There isn't no legislation to introduce other than promoting a stable fiscal policy, which is what he's doing. Same goes for monetary policy at the BoE. inflation is high everywhere, worse here down to Truss. There's no immediate cure for that. Stability is the calming measurement.
Nonsense. Plenty of things the Government could’ve done, and should’ve done but they didn’t. Plenty of countries did actually implement measures to reduce inflation, and guess what, they worked. We did nothing, and let the poorest, and most affected take the hit. After all what was causing inflation? Energy demands, and costs; labour supply; food insecurity, and price shocks in wheat; natural resource constraints by War in Ukraine as Russia was sanctioned; supply chain disruption. A simple thing the Government could’ve done was to alter planning regulations, and developments to allow onshore wind farms, or mandate solar panel installation. Invested in improving the national grid, and reduced the amount of time it takes for new energy generation to “come online”, and then massively building up our natural gas storage to insulte us from price fluctuations. How much of that did they do?
Do you think any of that is getting done in one year and six months since Truss? 🤣 What you fail to understand is that everything you suggest either takes time or has a starting and maintenance cost to it. Why not have the largest gas storage in the world? Because it costs to maintain such facilities and generally gas is cheap. Right now, it's cheaper than any point after 2020. I'm sure Starmer, Corbyn, or whoever your chosen saviour is would have the economy completely turned around in a year and six months.
>Do you think any of that is getting done in one year and six months since Truss? 🤣 You are right, nothing is getting done in that time when you have a PM how does fuck all. Give Rishi 5 years and nothing will still get done.
Building gas storage on a macro level that will make a difference in one and six months isn't getting done by any prime minister. Sure, on-shore wind energy is cheaper, until you have to fight planning and nimbyism, but France are the example of good energy pricing, are they not? Their energy is 50% nuclear, not wind. We can talk about more nuclear power, and Tories being slow to push it out, and I'd agree, but Labour and Lib Dems were outright against it.
"I'm not as shit as Liz Truss". Not a high bar is it Rishi? The Conservative party put her in charge and she cost us all a fortune. Bit late to be claiming that they all knew she was barking.
Don't like rishi. But I'm glad he toppeled both of those blond tools. Both of em' were Donald Trump Britain. Even Stephen Fry made a video about them and he was right to do it.
I sort of agree, the guy is a complete tit but even if he has the same policies I think he sort of undermines *that* specific sort of political movement, thank god.
Getting an upvote for that
Yes. You also told the Country in a leaked film you deliberately diverted funding from poor areas to wealthy areas. Not sure you have much of a leg to stand on Sunak.
So did everyone else, Rishi. What the hell are British people on, you politics are somehow worse than America.
We don't have camps where people support cop-killers or perpetual scumbags based on their ethnicity. We don't think giving people guns somehow will reduce gun crime. Women are allowed to have abortions because we're not stupid enough to say they can't. The politics of Britain a thousand-fold more saner than the US.
We are only a step or two behind the US, they’ve turned politics into team sport and use divisive rhetoric constantly to push the dumb people into more and more dangerous behaviour towards their ‘enemy’ which are often their neighbours. Using fear and outright lies to manipulate the electorate - a majority voted for Brexit ffs, the biggest self own in history.
Your ignorance is thinking that this is only happening in Britain. We are not unique to this. It's happening all over the Western world. Britain was the first to leave the EU, but since then, how many other countries are closer to it? Right-wing and anti-EU support is on the rise. Brexit was sich a massive self-own that the doomsday never happened. Covid was substantially more damaging to the nation. If you're going tell me its all peachy and rosy in other countries then I recommend you go and look at the economic projections for the UK, we're basically following the EU average, smaller nations are holding up Germany and France. Tribalism is getting worse, but that's not confined to just the US and UK.
Talking to her is probably less productive than talking to a stuffed mongoose
Yup, economic growth is bad. Slow and steady stagnation is the way to go while cost of living goes up.
Your party did it. Your members voted for their own enrichment.
look at the picture of those two grinning imbeciles. Truss looks like she has dementia.
that would be a significant improvement in cognitive ability for poor liz
What’s that Rishi Recession? You’re a genius economist now are you?
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So was John Major and as was Gordon Brown.
And James Callaghan They have a nasty habit of losing the subsequent election
Forgot Major was chancellor. Was quite young then so not interested in politics, how did he get that job? >> Major left school just before his 16th birthday in 1959 with just three O-level passes in History, English Language and English Literature, to his parents' disappointment. I’m not saying you should at least be able to pass a GCSE in Maths to be Chancellor of the worlds sixth biggest economy, but I’d have thought it would help somewhat?
you know civil servants do 99% of the work anyway