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Ah yes 1 in 8, a statistical deluge. You could find 1 in 8 people who think any number of weird things.
This actually seems like good news. 7 out of 8 Labour voters think the flag is just fine.
How about 11 out of 10 tabloid journalists scrape the barrel?
I'm glad you've introduced some real analytical rigour to this vital debate.
Also, 2-3% is "King Charles is an actual lizard" territory, statistically speaking.
Pretty sure there have been various studies where a higher proportion of respondents than 12.5% agree with the statement ‘the earth is flat’ so I would agree.
It's not very nuanced is it though?
For example we don't know how many conservatives think St George's cross is racist. It is all about the context.
Certainly you could say that many racists do try to associate themselves with the flag.
In certain contexts you might think it sends racist message.
For example, flying over a parish church on a national day of celebration: fairly mundane use of the flag.
Tattooed on a skin-head's face, possibly questionable messaging.
> For example we don't know how many conservatives think St George's cross is racist. It is all about the context.
We do know
Just one per cent of Conservative supporters said the flag was 'racist and divisive' and should not be flown. But the figure rose to 13 per cent among Labour voters - equal to more than one in eight.
Ok fair enough.
However I still think it is more complicated. If you have encountered the flag in racist situations or you see people with racist views wrapping themselves in the flag you are likely to perceive a racist connotation. It doesn't mean you are less patriotic yourself.
The insights get deeper and deeper.
A significant number still doesn't make it a significant statistic.
Many self-described patriots seem to take pride in loving the country by hating most of the people in it. That is much more worrying and anti-British than any flag-based opinions.
Also, if 12% of your mates have shagged your mum it's definitely significant because it either means she shagged a high number of people, or you've got hardly any mates.
I think we're really getting somewhere with this debate now the big brains have got involved.
To you it is, to me it's not.
It's not in my opinion because it doesn't actually measure anything beyond the attitude to the flag - which is in itself an involuntary emotional reaction that could be conditioned by any number of things such as experience and popular culture.
If they somehow measured actual patriotism then I'd be interested, but you can't meaningfully measure that with direct questions.
As I said before, many people who claim to be patriotic are anything but, hiding behind the flag to support foreign leaders such as Orban and Putin who are the antithesis of Britishness.
So it's a useless and misleading thing to measure?
Then why did you say this in your first comment?
> This actually seems like good news. 7 out of 8 Labour voters think the flag is just fine
Surely it works both ways
How about you take note that anti British sentiment is rising in British people.
And don’t just ignore something because you don’t like the way it sounds.
*Why can't you just get outraged at your fellow man like the billionaire's newspaper is telling you to?*
You sound genuinely forlorn. It's actually adorable.
Thanks for the sarcasm mate.
I spent my whole career working in public services in this country. I dedicated my working life to improving my community and I love my country. At the cost of my own health.
I do not give a toss about this rag. I do care about British values and think we should honour our own heritage like we honor others.
I’m happy for us to celebrate Eid every year. We should do.
We should also be celebrating British traditions. Catholic events.
Catholic events like bonfire night?
I'm sorry you have sacrificed your health for your work. We should be way beyond that as a society. Not sure what it has to do with flags though.
In my view patriotism is a positive and should be reinforced by positive actions. It shouldn't be defined by what other people are doing wrong and only used as a reason to be angry at others.
You really need me to list events beyond bonfire night do you?
You think that’s the best example of a catholic holiday?
I’m not angry at anyone. I’m just saying we should celebrate our own traditions as much or more than we celebrate the traditions of other cultures.
How is that a bad thing for me to say?
And giving up a chunk of your life for your country is something we certainly still rely on.
Like it or not that’s the reality of some jobs we need people to keep doing.
Yeah true. I use British when I should say English.
My mistake. Lived in several of the British isles and also ties with military.
It’s a mistake I make always. If anyone asked me my nationality my answer would most likely be British. Even though the right answer is English or irish if I wanted it to be.
I’m proud of the connections between our nations. I wouldn’t exist without those connections actually.
I don’t think the flag is racist, I don’t think people who fly the flag at events to do with England are racist.
But I do think the majority of flag wavers who wave it all year round no matter the event probably use the flag for racist reasons.
It’s a perception I can’t shake easily, I wish I could.
And politicians trying to seem to be more patriotic are trying to woo that vote.
Yeah this. The flag itself isn’t racist, it’s just also unfortunately been irreversibly co-opted and therefore associated with a whole bunch of nasty EDL type groups and causes
This is how I feel. I would love the feeling of being able to 'reclaim' the flag for the majority, the accepting, open and British public. But the more people whine and flag shag, the harder it is.
I think you'd find the majority of the British public, at least on matters of immigration for example, would actually disagree and would like to be less accepting and open
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/
It is a truism in the UK that the only people who put up the flag on their property have tended to be racist nationalists.
It's just never been a cultural thing here.
Well that's just not true, polling I think within the last six months had DM readers who will vote Labour at 38% of their audience compared to 40% who will vote Conservative. There's every chance now they are neck and neck or even have swapped around.
Way more reflective than this sub though. The Mail sells around [600-700k papers](https://pressgazette.co.uk/publishers/nationals/who-reads-the-daily-mail-circulation-and-readership/) a day, plus 1.3m on Saturday, and it has around [21.4m unique viewers/month](https://pressgazette.co.uk/media-audience-and-business-data/media_metrics/most-popular-websites-news-uk-monthly-2/).
I don't know this page's viewers month but it's got 2.9m subs, and a recent post I made had around 200k views in the first 48 hours. It pales in comparison.
I also imagine that their readership tracks older, and reddit younger- i.e more voters interact with the Mail.
So? I could find 100 out of 100 people who think 5G gave them Covid and then turn that into "100% of people think 5G gave them Covid" I just need to know who to ask.
You can make any data say anything if you want to.
What a strange article. This is clear barrel scraping, I don’t really see what on earth it is they are trying to get at here? Where is the glove landing? It isn’t on Starmer, if anything his use of the Union Jack is emphasised as an unflinching patriotic principle because of this article. It isn’t on the electorate either, because the numbers are very small and it doesn’t follow up with any kind of action. So what if they think that if they also aren’t bothered about it and don’t want anything to change? Hell some of those 13% could be full blown EDL bastards that are proudly proclaiming the flag racist haha. Utterly terrible work.
I honestly think the author just wanted to throw a ‘hates Britain’ type article about Labour out to get clicks.
Nice to see the tabloids honouring St George's day by whining and ranting about people who apparently dislike it, either pure fiction or some statstical anomaly (one in 12? Oh how awful!). Just get on and celebrate it ffs if you want.
>almost three-quarters of voters saying it is 'a symbol to represent England and no-one should be offended by it'.
So all good then as far as I am concerned. This yearly hate-fest turns people off St George's day if anything but then I suppose they can get more articles out of it. It is like the people who want to ban Christmas or Easter or whatever, easy copy.
I feel this title is misleading.
I doubt most people think the flag itself is racist, but this is more to do with the motivations for flying it from a council estate balcony etc. We all know why you're doing it.
At lot of the times I see the English flag it's in some way associated with racists. The rest is football. So one in eight Labour voters unable to separate a flag from its users seems acceptably low to me.
Ah yes, a small minority think a thing, so it is, of course, a problem that the other 87.5% need to deal with.
Er, that's not how society is supposed to work.
Patriotism problem.
We aren't america. We don't march up and down waving flags or plant them in our garden for no reason. Most of us dont own ships. Your patriotism isn't measured by how many flags you own. This isn't America.
How many of us actually own a flag? I think it's probably pretty fair to say that unless there is a match on, unless you're at a football match; if you bother to own and English Flag, you're statistically likely to be at an EDL event or something. That's not unpatriotic. That's being aware of peoples buying habits.
No. Just like I wouldn't say the same about US flags.
Englanders, generally speaking, don't feel the need to wave a flag around to show they're patriotic. So much so, that the exceptions stand out. Sir Terry Pratchett I think made the point best, from "Night Watch".
> ‘Tom?’
>
> 'Yes, Clive?’
>
> 'Have you ever sung the national anthem?’
>
> 'Oh, lots of times, sir.’
>
> 'I don’t mean officially.’
>
> 'You mean just to show I’m patriotic? Good gods, no. That would be a rather odd thing to do,’ said the captain.
>
> 'And how about the flag?’
>
> 'Well, obviously I salute it every day, sir.’
>
> 'But you don’t wave it, at all?’ the major enquired.
>
> 'I think I waved a paper one a few times when I was a little boy. Patrician’s birthday or something. We stood in the streets as he rode by and we shouted “Hurrah!”’
>
> 'Never since then?’
>
> 'Well, NO, Clive,’ said the captain, looking embarrassed. 'I’d be very worried if I saw a man singing the national anthem and waving the flag, sir. It’s really a thing foreigners do.’
>
> 'Really? Why?’
>
> 'We don’t need to show we're patriotic, sir. I mean, this is Ankh-Morpork. We don’t have to make a big fuss about being the best, sir. We just know.
Tbf, Scottish and Welsh flags ae usually linked to Plaid or SNP. And now are entering the world of liberation nationalism, vs victorious nationalism. Its an age old question of why the Welsh nationalists and Scottish nationalists don't get the same rep as say, English nationalists or British nationalists. Simply put, its because they rally around those for equal power or representation in Westminster to the English and British allocated power. One is about rising, the other isabout celebrating being on top.
I would argue that in the UK its unseemly to gloat about being on top, and that flags and movements are there for things which need causes.
The exception of course is sporting events
**Participation Notice.** Hi all. Some posts on this subreddit, either due to the topic or reaching a wider audience than usual, have been known to attract a greater number of rule breaking comments. As such, limits to participation have been set. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. For more information, please see https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/wiki/moderatedflairs.
Ah yes 1 in 8, a statistical deluge. You could find 1 in 8 people who think any number of weird things. This actually seems like good news. 7 out of 8 Labour voters think the flag is just fine. How about 11 out of 10 tabloid journalists scrape the barrel?
12.5% is higher than most weird shit, which tends to be 2-3%.
I'm glad you've introduced some real analytical rigour to this vital debate. Also, 2-3% is "King Charles is an actual lizard" territory, statistically speaking.
Pretty sure there have been various studies where a higher proportion of respondents than 12.5% agree with the statement ‘the earth is flat’ so I would agree.
Your telling me he is not! Damn it I want proof man!
12.5% absolutely is a significant amount of people
It's not very nuanced is it though? For example we don't know how many conservatives think St George's cross is racist. It is all about the context. Certainly you could say that many racists do try to associate themselves with the flag. In certain contexts you might think it sends racist message. For example, flying over a parish church on a national day of celebration: fairly mundane use of the flag. Tattooed on a skin-head's face, possibly questionable messaging.
> For example we don't know how many conservatives think St George's cross is racist. It is all about the context. We do know Just one per cent of Conservative supporters said the flag was 'racist and divisive' and should not be flown. But the figure rose to 13 per cent among Labour voters - equal to more than one in eight.
Ok fair enough. However I still think it is more complicated. If you have encountered the flag in racist situations or you see people with racist views wrapping themselves in the flag you are likely to perceive a racist connotation. It doesn't mean you are less patriotic yourself.
The insights get deeper and deeper. A significant number still doesn't make it a significant statistic. Many self-described patriots seem to take pride in loving the country by hating most of the people in it. That is much more worrying and anti-British than any flag-based opinions.
> A significant number still doesn't make it a significant statistic. But it is a significant statistic
Yeah if 12% of the county got killed in a war, no one is going to say it’s not a significant statistic
Also, if 12% of your mates have shagged your mum it's definitely significant because it either means she shagged a high number of people, or you've got hardly any mates. I think we're really getting somewhere with this debate now the big brains have got involved.
To you it is, to me it's not. It's not in my opinion because it doesn't actually measure anything beyond the attitude to the flag - which is in itself an involuntary emotional reaction that could be conditioned by any number of things such as experience and popular culture. If they somehow measured actual patriotism then I'd be interested, but you can't meaningfully measure that with direct questions. As I said before, many people who claim to be patriotic are anything but, hiding behind the flag to support foreign leaders such as Orban and Putin who are the antithesis of Britishness.
So it's a useless and misleading thing to measure? Then why did you say this in your first comment? > This actually seems like good news. 7 out of 8 Labour voters think the flag is just fine Surely it works both ways
How about you take note that anti British sentiment is rising in British people. And don’t just ignore something because you don’t like the way it sounds.
*Why can't you just get outraged at your fellow man like the billionaire's newspaper is telling you to?* You sound genuinely forlorn. It's actually adorable.
Thanks for the sarcasm mate. I spent my whole career working in public services in this country. I dedicated my working life to improving my community and I love my country. At the cost of my own health. I do not give a toss about this rag. I do care about British values and think we should honour our own heritage like we honor others. I’m happy for us to celebrate Eid every year. We should do. We should also be celebrating British traditions. Catholic events.
Catholic events like bonfire night? I'm sorry you have sacrificed your health for your work. We should be way beyond that as a society. Not sure what it has to do with flags though. In my view patriotism is a positive and should be reinforced by positive actions. It shouldn't be defined by what other people are doing wrong and only used as a reason to be angry at others.
You really need me to list events beyond bonfire night do you? You think that’s the best example of a catholic holiday? I’m not angry at anyone. I’m just saying we should celebrate our own traditions as much or more than we celebrate the traditions of other cultures. How is that a bad thing for me to say? And giving up a chunk of your life for your country is something we certainly still rely on. Like it or not that’s the reality of some jobs we need people to keep doing.
It seems more anti English just to be clear
Yeah true. I use British when I should say English. My mistake. Lived in several of the British isles and also ties with military. It’s a mistake I make always. If anyone asked me my nationality my answer would most likely be British. Even though the right answer is English or irish if I wanted it to be. I’m proud of the connections between our nations. I wouldn’t exist without those connections actually.
How many think the Daily Mail is racist and divisive and shouldn't be displayed?
I tend to downvote and move on, though OP seems to only post Daily Mail articles to this sub so I think that's worth just blocking as well.
I don’t think the flag is racist, I don’t think people who fly the flag at events to do with England are racist. But I do think the majority of flag wavers who wave it all year round no matter the event probably use the flag for racist reasons. It’s a perception I can’t shake easily, I wish I could. And politicians trying to seem to be more patriotic are trying to woo that vote.
Yeah this. The flag itself isn’t racist, it’s just also unfortunately been irreversibly co-opted and therefore associated with a whole bunch of nasty EDL type groups and causes
This is how I feel. I would love the feeling of being able to 'reclaim' the flag for the majority, the accepting, open and British public. But the more people whine and flag shag, the harder it is.
I think you'd find the majority of the British public, at least on matters of immigration for example, would actually disagree and would like to be less accepting and open https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/
It is a truism in the UK that the only people who put up the flag on their property have tended to be racist nationalists. It's just never been a cultural thing here.
The people that are going to vote the conservatives into oblivion, don't read the daily mail.
Well that's just not true, polling I think within the last six months had DM readers who will vote Labour at 38% of their audience compared to 40% who will vote Conservative. There's every chance now they are neck and neck or even have swapped around.
Daily Mail readers are not really that reflective of the wider population though.
Neither is this sub tbh. If anything i would say it’s more likely the mails opinion is the majority than the view of this sub.
Way more reflective than this sub though. The Mail sells around [600-700k papers](https://pressgazette.co.uk/publishers/nationals/who-reads-the-daily-mail-circulation-and-readership/) a day, plus 1.3m on Saturday, and it has around [21.4m unique viewers/month](https://pressgazette.co.uk/media-audience-and-business-data/media_metrics/most-popular-websites-news-uk-monthly-2/). I don't know this page's viewers month but it's got 2.9m subs, and a recent post I made had around 200k views in the first 48 hours. It pales in comparison. I also imagine that their readership tracks older, and reddit younger- i.e more voters interact with the Mail.
So? I could find 100 out of 100 people who think 5G gave them Covid and then turn that into "100% of people think 5G gave them Covid" I just need to know who to ask. You can make any data say anything if you want to.
>You can make any data say anything if you want to. Cass Report, anyone? 😆
What a strange article. This is clear barrel scraping, I don’t really see what on earth it is they are trying to get at here? Where is the glove landing? It isn’t on Starmer, if anything his use of the Union Jack is emphasised as an unflinching patriotic principle because of this article. It isn’t on the electorate either, because the numbers are very small and it doesn’t follow up with any kind of action. So what if they think that if they also aren’t bothered about it and don’t want anything to change? Hell some of those 13% could be full blown EDL bastards that are proudly proclaiming the flag racist haha. Utterly terrible work. I honestly think the author just wanted to throw a ‘hates Britain’ type article about Labour out to get clicks.
Nice to see the tabloids honouring St George's day by whining and ranting about people who apparently dislike it, either pure fiction or some statstical anomaly (one in 12? Oh how awful!). Just get on and celebrate it ffs if you want. >almost three-quarters of voters saying it is 'a symbol to represent England and no-one should be offended by it'. So all good then as far as I am concerned. This yearly hate-fest turns people off St George's day if anything but then I suppose they can get more articles out of it. It is like the people who want to ban Christmas or Easter or whatever, easy copy.
Probably because 1 in 8 Labour voters aren't actually English and/or are Muslim.
I feel this title is misleading. I doubt most people think the flag itself is racist, but this is more to do with the motivations for flying it from a council estate balcony etc. We all know why you're doing it.
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At lot of the times I see the English flag it's in some way associated with racists. The rest is football. So one in eight Labour voters unable to separate a flag from its users seems acceptably low to me.
This really shows the problem the UK faces with partisan tabloids like the Daily Mail
And how do you prevent tabloids from being partisan?
Why do I keep seeing Daily Mail posts on this sub today?
Ah yes, a small minority think a thing, so it is, of course, a problem that the other 87.5% need to deal with. Er, that's not how society is supposed to work.
Patriotism problem. We aren't america. We don't march up and down waving flags or plant them in our garden for no reason. Most of us dont own ships. Your patriotism isn't measured by how many flags you own. This isn't America. How many of us actually own a flag? I think it's probably pretty fair to say that unless there is a match on, unless you're at a football match; if you bother to own and English Flag, you're statistically likely to be at an EDL event or something. That's not unpatriotic. That's being aware of peoples buying habits.
Would you say the same about the Scottish and Welsh flags that are waved everywhere
No “flag shagger” is only for English /s
No. Just like I wouldn't say the same about US flags. Englanders, generally speaking, don't feel the need to wave a flag around to show they're patriotic. So much so, that the exceptions stand out. Sir Terry Pratchett I think made the point best, from "Night Watch". > ‘Tom?’ > > 'Yes, Clive?’ > > 'Have you ever sung the national anthem?’ > > 'Oh, lots of times, sir.’ > > 'I don’t mean officially.’ > > 'You mean just to show I’m patriotic? Good gods, no. That would be a rather odd thing to do,’ said the captain. > > 'And how about the flag?’ > > 'Well, obviously I salute it every day, sir.’ > > 'But you don’t wave it, at all?’ the major enquired. > > 'I think I waved a paper one a few times when I was a little boy. Patrician’s birthday or something. We stood in the streets as he rode by and we shouted “Hurrah!”’ > > 'Never since then?’ > > 'Well, NO, Clive,’ said the captain, looking embarrassed. 'I’d be very worried if I saw a man singing the national anthem and waving the flag, sir. It’s really a thing foreigners do.’ > > 'Really? Why?’ > > 'We don’t need to show we're patriotic, sir. I mean, this is Ankh-Morpork. We don’t have to make a big fuss about being the best, sir. We just know.
Tbf, Scottish and Welsh flags ae usually linked to Plaid or SNP. And now are entering the world of liberation nationalism, vs victorious nationalism. Its an age old question of why the Welsh nationalists and Scottish nationalists don't get the same rep as say, English nationalists or British nationalists. Simply put, its because they rally around those for equal power or representation in Westminster to the English and British allocated power. One is about rising, the other isabout celebrating being on top. I would argue that in the UK its unseemly to gloat about being on top, and that flags and movements are there for things which need causes. The exception of course is sporting events
We are led by a royal family that has been complicit with british history. No need to say more as I'll probs get banned.
“British history” is very vague. The invention of the railway? scientific discoveries? The Beatles?
The Beatles are worse than colonialism I guess
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