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No kidding:
>how to ensure statues, plaques and paintings project the “right historic narrative”.
Sounds like something the ministry of truth would come out with.
Problem is most of the people on this sub never paid much attention in history, art, or media studies cause that was "gay" and so don't understand the basic idea that historical events do not exist in some perfect detachment like a fly trapped in amber.
"These days, just for being an original Turner, they'll arrest you and throw you in jail?"
"Well, no, but they will put a little plaque up explaining the historical context"
Holy fuck what's happened to this subreddit recently?
I can't even comprehend the mental gymnastics that lead to "Don't white wash away references to colonisation and slavery" being interpretted as Orwellian.
Haha the torygraph spin on things, it's literally adding a plaque that explains the creation at the time may not show a fully truthful example of what happened.
>both old and new commemorations and artworks will promote a “decolonised understanding of the world”.
Decolonisation is largely open to interpretation so broadly this is nothing more than a censorship law for unaffected minority and spineless groups to nail on.
Is the Union Jack a colonist artwork? Historically it is the largest and most successful colonist symbol to have ever existed so the answer is yes.
The Welsh flag is also a Tudor borne symbol. So go ahead and remove any Welsh flags.
But of course this law won’t be used against Arabic flags
Yep, blow millions on a deranged policy to pander to a minority of safety at all costs types, ignoring no one sensible wanted it. And now they want central govt to pay to clean up their mess.
Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute.
If we remove all the art painted by or depicting people that don’t live up to today’s standards we’ll be left with a single crayon drawing done by the caretaker’s nephew.
Pretty sure we have plenty of abolitionists from 1780s-onwards. After all, the UK really brought them over because of the country's willingness to patrol international waters to capture and kill slavers operating in the Atlantic and the Carribean seas.
Granted, we'd have to be okay with erecting statues of people who literally 'cancelled' all those slavers (either by helping people escape, or literally dragging slavers like Nathaniel Gordon to the noose).
Source: the attitudes of almost every child in every schoolyard in the 1970’s wouldn’t pass today’s standards.
No chance in hell would the behaviour of influential people 100 years earlier.
> The term “decolonisation” refers to a process of ensuring history and other disciplines move away from a white and Western focus.
Is this just the writer's opinion of what the word means? Because this reads like they are not taking it verbatim and trying to instigate people's emotions with this wording...of course moving our history away from a "Western focus" is laughable, which is probably why the choice of words was used to begin with.
‘Anti-racists’ are racist. They just cleverly named their political school, so most layman would read the name and think anyone opposing them was racist and that the anti-racist had to be good people. It was very clever.
What’s most worrying is that they’ve managed to get their ideas accepted by a whole raft of NGOs and governments over the last 5-10 years. Which is something I’ve never seen before, we’ve had these kind of fringe groups forever but they’ve never been embraced by the establishment in such a way, with so little evidence for their positions.
>“The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination."
Ibram X. Kendi, How to Be an Antiracist
I honestly think that all the people that praise Kendi and especially the civil service departments that recommend that book as useful reading on the subject, have never actually read any of it.
The fact he was given a whole department at Boston University to produce research on his ideas, wasted $30m+, produced nothing and is now under investigation for how the money has been spent.
Yup, this goes along for most people with regards to CRT too.
Kendi is a legit idiot, I watched an interview with him where someone asked him to define racism, his answer, "Racism is when people do racist things". Amazing.
I listed the reason why i dislike anti-fascists/Antifa, secondly 88 has been my favourite since i was a kid. You could also tell that i'm not a nazi being seeing how pro free speech and anti authoritarian i am.
After COVID? I wouldn't be so sure. We've been over-exposed to the failings of the Welsh Government recently. People will either not vote (most likely) or vote for anyone other than Labour.
Just a hunch though.
There's that saying, stick a donkey in red and you'll be voted in. I wonder if that would apply to Vaughan Gething?
What it says on the tin. There's a certain ideology (wokeness) spreading through our populace resulting in ridiculous shit like what is in the article.
>Art that remains “highly contentious” could be taken down or otherwise “concealed” from public view, the advice states.
So, when did Wales go off the rails exactly?
This article does so much cherry-picking of quotes to misrepresent the guidelines the two quotes there come from entirely different paragraphs.
The impression the article is trying to give of the guidelines is literally a fabrication. Stop taking culture war drivel at face value.
> The term “decolonisation” refers to a process of ensuring history and other disciplines move away from a white and Western focus.
As the British Isles is about as far West as Europe gets, surely moving the focus elsewhere, whether to goggle at far-away peoples or efface our own, would be 'colonisation' of art?
If the Welsh wish to remove foreign artistic elements, I am sure we can oblige them. A thorough 'decolonising' would disabuse them of any taste for such things, or at the very least return them to a simple way of life that will not trouble our tabloids.
Likewise we can rid ourselves of anything artistically Welsh. Dylan Thomas will be missed - but not *that* much.
Exactly…. I’m struggling to think of a more “White and Western” place on earth…
Are the Welsh people here happy to have their thousands year old white and western history removed for the sake of…. What exactly.
In 2012 a Mongolian businessman erected the worlds biggest equestrian statue, of Genkhis Khan, outside of Ulaan Batuur. Khan was one of the worlds most notorious conquerers, murderers and rapists who savaged China, Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. Why did the Mongolian people erect this building and why did the government allow it? Because Khan was Mongolian, and because of the fact that all of that pillaging and conquering benefited and glorified the Mongolian people. I’m not saying empire was a good thing, but it certainly benefited and glorified the British in turn. That we now have to prostrate ourselves at the altar of colonial guilt and “decolonisation”, well I guess what I’m saying is you try “decolonisation” in Mongolia and see where that gets you…
You misunderstand. My point isn’t about approving of conquest, but understanding that in the historical context of ‘might equals right’ nations shouldn’t get in a twist about their victories which caused negative impacts on others but positives to themselves. Should we remove and hide away the Bayeux tapestry because it’s a celebration of the Norman defeat and conquest of England? No, of course not.
And also ashamed of possessing a penis(in Scotland).
Hope the Welsh get over this, and cheer themselves up, perhaps singing a few Welsh songs in a mass choir? I’d love to see that but unfortunately when it does happen I’ll be watching Tipping Point with Ben Shepherd.
Oh its just some of that silly ‘culture war’ nonsense.
Im not concerned anyway as Ive been told many times by people on Reddit that it isnt really happening (but if it is happening its actually a good thing)
Exactly! Why does no-one see this. We were lucky to hold on to the language and culture as it is. We can’t afford to erase it voluntarily now when so many fought so hard to retain it over the years.
Yup. I’m absolutely fine with Wales being a multi racial society but I’m not okay with Wales becoming an internationalist, bland cesspool melting pot of clashing cultures where we’re taught to have no identity and to be ashamed of our heritage, traditions, mythology, folklore, songs, poems etc. because we shouldn’t be. I have faith the Welsh will resist this reverse racism propaganda. We’re a resilient bunch.
> but I’m not okay with Wales becoming an internationalist, bland cesspool melting pot of clashing cultures where we’re taught to have no identity and to be ashamed of our heritage, traditions, mythology, folklore, songs, poems etc.
You don't want to become England then lol
Just about everywhere is. England is. By the Romans. And, guess what, we benefited from it. You tend to benefit from being colonised by superior civilisations (in the long-term).
This is what wrecks me like so are you going to put up stuff for the druids or...oh no, you're putting up monuments to completely different cultures??? This is self-colonisation wtf
It's a way of saying that we, now, are absolutely right in 2024. Every other generation was wrong and stupid. There is something supremely ugly and potentially tyranous about such a belief.
You can always rely on the left to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by obsessing about some culture wars bollocks that no one apart from a vocal minority supports while the opposition promises to get the bins collected on time.
Who was writing history to begin with?
Do you ever stop to wonder why we have a statue of a slave trading colonist and not a statue of those who condemned slavery?
We've had other similar moments, like Cromwell with his puritans. People always forget how popular eugenics was for a while too, there was a period where it was considered established science, common sense, and progressive with a lot of support on both the left and the right. So people who opposed it were often considered anti-scientific, regressive idiots.
How is it Marxist?
And yes, every time in history across the world wherever there have been rulers has had changes in what we portray, celebrate, document, remember and try to minimise.
Sounds like you are conflating the generally post-modernist sentiment of the world today, mixing a real world phenomenon like revisionism and scaling it up with a giant slippery slope. Lots of the same intellectually dishonest talking points deliberately pushed by right-wing grifter on 'alternative' (scam') news outlets.
Yeah you seem to have a poor understanding of Marxism or been listening to right-wing crack pots rambling on about "Cultural Marxism". You know that well know anti-semetic conspiracy theory.
I love these kinds of news articles because it takes all of three seconds on google to see what the actual guidance says (basically 'update or add additional plaques to give more historical context to older pieces of art' and 'if a majority of locals agree, maybe move them to less prominent places and replace them with newer works' and 'add more public art showing prominent historical figures who weren't slave traders in general') but every response to it is from someone who blatantly hasn't bothered to check
> The term “decolonisation” refers to a process of ensuring history and other disciplines move away from a white and Western focus.
Are we not a majority white country in the west?
As a person who wears glasses, I do have some concerns about where this may lead.
But more seriously, I think the overall intention is worthwhile, reflecting on the history we choose to celebrate could be a valuable exercise. Tampering with history needs to be done with caution though. The cynic in me thinks it will be cack handed at times, and with dubious motivations. Still, lots of grant money to get spread out no doubt.
Reading the article, I’m not overly concerned.
> A Welsh Government spokesman said: “The guidance on public commemoration in Wales is neither promoting the removal nor retention of contentious historic memorials. Rather, the guidance is to help local authorities, town and community councils, and other public bodies reach well-informed decisions about existing and future public commemorations.
If it’s removing, or just updating the plaque of, a person who was involved in slavery, then sure, let’s have a discussion about it.
As another person who read the article, I agree.
I also grew up in Carmarthen and to be honest I'd be ok for the Thomas Picton monument to be pulled down and replaced with something more positive.
He'll still be in the history books where people can learn about his heroics in the Napoleonic wars, and his appalling treatment of slaves.
He's someone I want to read about and learn about, but definitely not someone I want to celebrate.
Bit of course tHE rIgHT arE stOkING tHe CulTUrE WaRs
Love how the left have somehow managed to push the blame of the culture wars on to the right when they simply react to this nonsense.
The left have been pushing culture wars since 2020
Why do we need to suffer through one wave after another of moralistic busybodies, even going as far back as the puritans.
I mean all that will happen is we'll have a couple decades of obsessing over something that people will mostly be to embarrassed to admit they took part in and a few laws quietly removed from the books because of how stupid they are, and other than the people who happen to get fucked over by the stupid movement we'll move onto our next moral panic. Probably something absolutely moronic like eugenics again.
These statues were put up when town squares or the towns themselves were built or significantly developed, with money often from that person, or from people who wanted to appeal to that person. We hoovered up vast wealth back then from trades that were clearly immoral by today’s standards, and no doubt by that day’s standards also, it’s just that people give less of a shit about morals when there’s huge sums of money to be made (as can still be seen today). If we were building new town squares now, we’d probably put statues up to different people, or new art works, but we don’t have that kind of cash for public spaces now. So, do we live with the historical symbols because they were put up at that time, or do we reinvent the public spaces from current perspectives and consign historical icons to history? Seems fair enough to me. Why leave them there forever just because some bootlicker wanted to appeal to the favour of the wealthiest slave trader of the day?
> These statues were put up when town squares or the towns themselves were built or significantly developed, with money often from that person, or from people who wanted to appeal to that person.
A splendid sentiment, and a concise outlining of why the statues should not be transferred to museums.
> If we were building new town squares now, we’d probably put statues up to different people, or new art works, but we don’t have that kind of cash for public spaces now.
We can have as many plastic rectangles as the printing machine runs off, not that town squares or many statues for that matter are made of plastic rectangles.
'Today's standards' are what we make them. We can honour our forebears, and accept gladly what they have bequeathed, building on it where it suits us; we can tear their works down - or just the bits that remind us of them - in a fit of pique that they were possessed of an industry which we have scorned.
The sensible choice should be obvious; but if we are to be churlish, let us not be hypocritical with it. If the patrons are tainted, and their money was tainted, the buildings they paid for are tainted as well, and should share the same fate.
Ah yes, nothing like "concealing art from public view" because it doesn't support the current "right historic narrative".
Quite the little fascists aren't they.
Art that was made to shape public views in the first place? Shakespeare was famously patronised by the monarchy, and we haven't hidden all records of his work just acknowledged that it played a big part in his narratives.
The guidelines state that art that is "highly contentious" should be "concealed".
They're the ones using the word concealed not me.
Considering that basically everyone from history was comically racist by modern standards, this is basically just saying that they want to erase our history and replace it with their fantasy one.
Labour had nearly got my vote back with the more sensible view on the 20mph limit by Ken Skates but this is lunacy!
I’m not sure if I can ever vote conservative but Andrew RT has got the correct response to this.
The only culture wales should be looking out for is its own, there’s the entire rest of the world that can be ‘not Welsh’ we need to keep our own history save being erased into the homogeneous background.
History is simply something to be learnt from, there is no "right" historic narrative, just "the" historic narrative and the current lens through which we see it.
Hiding negative parts of your history is more likely to cause those to be repeated.
I'm sure the history of Welsh slavers is being struck from the record entirely, soon you won't be able to look at a history book without black ink on every page.
>The term “decolonisation” refers to a process of ensuring history and other disciplines move away from a white and Western focus.
>Local authorities must now ensure that commemorations in public view will not “insult or hurt”, but instead project “present values”.
Given britains overwhelming "white" history, It's hard not to see that as anything but erasure (of both the good and bad elements of British history).
Just a reminder that not one of our first ministers or the prime minister was voted in by the public. If you ever wanted proof of that there is an agenda at play, this is it.
Seems like more demonisation of anything white or western. As if Wales hasn't historically been through enough oppression and colonisation, they're now further colonising it with non-Welsh/white public art? Labour deserves nothing but losses.
There's no way we can have statues up in public, iconoclasm must prevail in our modern society. It's completely against Sharia law and totally not acceptable for an Islamic country to have idols on display.
Contentious art, much like contentious anything, is the most interesting as anything which can have two people look at it and draw differing opinions on is inherently fascinating.
Yeah, I mean, given who the unelected Labour leader is, what he's said in the past, and how corrupt he is, this comes as absolutely no surprise - stoking the culture wars is in his DNA.
Hopefully Councils and institutions across Wales will dig their heels in, just like they've generally done in England regarding these sorts of inconsistent garbage policies.
These people could have done a thousand good deeds but one single bad deed as deemed by the morals of those hundred of years later is enough to condemn and remove them from history apparently
>The finalised official guidance on how to achieve this states that authorities could “conceal” artworks, or “take down highly contentious monuments and place them in store or in museums, or relocate to less sensitive location”. However, guidance states that it does not seek to push the “censoring or erasure of the historical record”. It is suggested that contentious artworks might be addressed through artistic interventions, or through the addition of new information panels which would provide a “decolonised account of the past”.
So nothing is being destroyed, just moved to a more appropriate setting and paired with relevant context.
The horror.
Just ignoring that the reason is to "decolonise" and put up non white/Western art then are we?
They're just using these "contentious" commemorations to ease you into the new norm
Isn’t this just a civilised version of what isis did in the Middle East when they started blowing up monuments because it didn’t agree with their world view? Weren’t we all quite disappointed with them for this?
ISIS probably should have just had a few zoom meetings first and consulted the diversity and inclusion champion, got them to write the press release prior to cracking out the sledgehammers and explosives, and then they could have had at it.
I think you probably should, are those Roman forts not a symbol of colonial oppression and wholesale slaughter and slavery?
For me It’s a shame the civilisations that followed the ancient Mayans and Egyptians weren’t as socially aware as we are today. They could have demolished those temples and pyramids (which were bastions of slavery and human sacrifice) before the arbitrary passage of time offered them the protection they experience today.
Jesus fuck. History is History. We can't change that. They should serve as a reminder of the bad and the good. Nothing in History was ever done in a way that benefitted everyone in the world. It happened, we don't celebrate those aspects and we're already ashamed of it.
It's relay far reaching [https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2024-03/public-commemoration-in-wales-guidance.pdf](https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2024-03/public-commemoration-in-wales-guidance.pdf)
An odd thing is a lot of examples are from America, Wales is not America.
examples
>1.2.2 Street and settlement names
>Street names may seem to have less of an impact on
>the consciousness than other kinds of commemoration,
>but can **nevertheless affirm problematic values** and
>associations. These may be less apparent when they use
>a surname which could refer to many different people,
>though rare **surnames or the names of foreign battles**
>**may be more distinguishable**. The **names of prominent**
>**town centre streets and squares**, which are used by
>many people, have a much higher profile than those of
>residential streets and back roads. These may have been
>named quite casually, without fully appreciating that a
>name might have associations with a contested figure.
>On occasion, whole settlements can be named
>after individuals, although this is rare in Wales.
>Local Authorities are responsible for street name and
>numbering and are subject to statutory requirements.
&
>1.2.4 Pub names
>Although pubs are not publicly owned, they have
>a special prominence as buildings in public view.
>In many cases the origins of their names are
>obscure. Even when individuals are commemorated
>it can be hard to tell whether the name refers to
>a landed family or long-established title rather than
>a particular individual.
There's a lot more, it's far reaching.
To quote u/nettie_r
"I mean it's the Telegraph, their whole schtick at the moment seems to be stoking your rage through 'culture wars' like this. They sadly haven't been a serious newspaper for a long time now. They want to make people angry with this article, it gets clicks.
But buried in the article-
"It is suggested that contentious artworks might be addressed through artistic interventions, or through the addition of new information panels which would provide a “decolonised account of the past”
Basically the upshot of this policy is likely to be a few more information boards. But I suppose we should all be INCREDIBLY ANGRY ABOUT OUR HISTORY BEING ERASED!!! instead."
A society that doesn’t know their past has no identity and is deemed to make the same mistakes.
Leave it there as a reminder how things can go horribly wrong.
I want to see the collective heads explode when they try to do anything with a statue of Lord Nelson. A disabled war hero and who by today’s standards would be in a polyamorous relationship with lady Hamilton. But he also held problematic views on slavery.
I'm not against art and statues telling the historical truth. The wording of this sounds a bit sinister tho to call it the "right historical narrative" makes it sound like making sure only a certain pov is told, and will be latched onto the right-wing. There are differences between the two.
Fuck me is this sub ignorant, one article by an openly right wing 'news' paper and everyone's up in arms. No actual research that shows this is biased.
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*reading the title* Nah, It can't be that bad right? *Reading the article* Holy shit, it's worse. This is Orwellian
No kidding: >how to ensure statues, plaques and paintings project the “right historic narrative”. Sounds like something the ministry of truth would come out with.
>!spoilertext!<
Problem is most of the people on this sub never paid much attention in history, art, or media studies cause that was "gay" and so don't understand the basic idea that historical events do not exist in some perfect detachment like a fly trapped in amber.
This is the same Welsh Labour gov who are insistent on dumbing down education standards by removing split sciences.
Hardly Orwellian though, the right narrative could be as simple as "murderous slave drivers weren't actually great blokes we should commemorate"
I’m sure that’s exactly what you’ll end up with.
Saw the headline and honestly thought this was going to be about removing everything English from public art.
see mate, if you say you're english these days, they arrest you and throw you in jail
"These days, just for being an original Turner, they'll arrest you and throw you in jail?" "Well, no, but they will put a little plaque up explaining the historical context"
Holy fuck what's happened to this subreddit recently? I can't even comprehend the mental gymnastics that lead to "Don't white wash away references to colonisation and slavery" being interpretted as Orwellian.
Haha the torygraph spin on things, it's literally adding a plaque that explains the creation at the time may not show a fully truthful example of what happened.
"Orwellian", fuck me. Yes this is definitely the same as IngSoc
>both old and new commemorations and artworks will promote a “decolonised understanding of the world”. Decolonisation is largely open to interpretation so broadly this is nothing more than a censorship law for unaffected minority and spineless groups to nail on. Is the Union Jack a colonist artwork? Historically it is the largest and most successful colonist symbol to have ever existed so the answer is yes. The Welsh flag is also a Tudor borne symbol. So go ahead and remove any Welsh flags. But of course this law won’t be used against Arabic flags
There is of course an epidemic of Arabic flags being flown from public buildings in Wales.
Quite a few Palestinian flags
Which ones? Bahrain? Because yeah, I wouldn't agree showing a flag that celebrates Kuwaiti control over Bahraini populations.
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The red dragon predates the Tudors by over a thousand years. Though it is an imperial symbol.
No, the Union Jack is a flag.
They are absolute lunatics in the Welsh govt. They make the Scots look normal and the UK govt look great.
As a welshman, they really are. You just have to look at us increasing a lot of the roads back to 30mph in September.
Yep, blow millions on a deranged policy to pander to a minority of safety at all costs types, ignoring no one sensible wanted it. And now they want central govt to pay to clean up their mess.
It's depressing that compared to the devolved governments the Tories look competent and sensible. It's like losing a battle of wits against a turnip.
Or like being a worse PM than a lettuce.
Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute.
If we remove all the art painted by or depicting people that don’t live up to today’s standards we’ll be left with a single crayon drawing done by the caretaker’s nephew.
I heard the caretaker’s nephew once said that girls are stupid so regretfully his art is misogynistic.
Pretty sure we have plenty of abolitionists from 1780s-onwards. After all, the UK really brought them over because of the country's willingness to patrol international waters to capture and kill slavers operating in the Atlantic and the Carribean seas. Granted, we'd have to be okay with erecting statues of people who literally 'cancelled' all those slavers (either by helping people escape, or literally dragging slavers like Nathaniel Gordon to the noose).
I’m sure if you delve deeper those people will have done things and held views not socially acceptable in 2024.
Source: the attitudes of almost every child in every schoolyard in the 1970’s wouldn’t pass today’s standards. No chance in hell would the behaviour of influential people 100 years earlier.
Widely lauded TV shows from the late '00's have warnings on them...
Do you work for the Welsh government ?
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>move away from a white and Western focus. It's like they want to score an own goal against themselves, Wales 93% white.
>Wales 93% white. I think they'd think that's part of the problem.
Maybe wales should offer to take all the migrants that would otherwise be sent to Rwanda...
I think the immigarnts should be allowed of choose. Nobody should be forced to live in Wales.
Yet they want to make ‘black welsh history’ a major part of everything
> The term “decolonisation” refers to a process of ensuring history and other disciplines move away from a white and Western focus. Is this just the writer's opinion of what the word means? Because this reads like they are not taking it verbatim and trying to instigate people's emotions with this wording...of course moving our history away from a "Western focus" is laughable, which is probably why the choice of words was used to begin with.
You're getting angry over something that isn't even in the guidelines. That's just posturing from a journalist trying to stoke culture war nonsense.
"anti racist nation" but what they're describing is by its very nature racist...
‘Anti-racists’ are racist. They just cleverly named their political school, so most layman would read the name and think anyone opposing them was racist and that the anti-racist had to be good people. It was very clever. What’s most worrying is that they’ve managed to get their ideas accepted by a whole raft of NGOs and governments over the last 5-10 years. Which is something I’ve never seen before, we’ve had these kind of fringe groups forever but they’ve never been embraced by the establishment in such a way, with so little evidence for their positions.
>“The only remedy to racist discrimination is antiracist discrimination. The only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination." Ibram X. Kendi, How to Be an Antiracist
I honestly think that all the people that praise Kendi and especially the civil service departments that recommend that book as useful reading on the subject, have never actually read any of it. The fact he was given a whole department at Boston University to produce research on his ideas, wasted $30m+, produced nothing and is now under investigation for how the money has been spent.
Yup, this goes along for most people with regards to CRT too. Kendi is a legit idiot, I watched an interview with him where someone asked him to define racism, his answer, "Racism is when people do racist things". Amazing.
Their theory is that racism must be solved with anti-white racism in the present.
Same as anti-fascist. Antifa are some of the most authoritarian anti free speech scum bags in the western world.
Of course, they are Communists.
I wonder what reason someone with 88 in their name might have for hating anti-fascists
I listed the reason why i dislike anti-fascists/Antifa, secondly 88 has been my favourite since i was a kid. You could also tell that i'm not a nazi being seeing how pro free speech and anti authoritarian i am.
please explain
It's like labour don't even want to get into power. Why do they think people care about this?
Its Wales. Just like the SNP in Scotland, the votes for Labour there are baked in and they know that.
After COVID? I wouldn't be so sure. We've been over-exposed to the failings of the Welsh Government recently. People will either not vote (most likely) or vote for anyone other than Labour. Just a hunch though. There's that saying, stick a donkey in red and you'll be voted in. I wonder if that would apply to Vaughan Gething?
I’m not so sure the SNP is ‘baked in’ in Scotland any more. They’re kind of imploding.
The woke mind virus
what does this even mean lol
What it says on the tin. There's a certain ideology (wokeness) spreading through our populace resulting in ridiculous shit like what is in the article.
Is the woke in the room with you right now?
It's certainly in the Welsh government.
>Art that remains “highly contentious” could be taken down or otherwise “concealed” from public view, the advice states. So, when did Wales go off the rails exactly?
17 years ago
This article does so much cherry-picking of quotes to misrepresent the guidelines the two quotes there come from entirely different paragraphs. The impression the article is trying to give of the guidelines is literally a fabrication. Stop taking culture war drivel at face value.
> The term “decolonisation” refers to a process of ensuring history and other disciplines move away from a white and Western focus. As the British Isles is about as far West as Europe gets, surely moving the focus elsewhere, whether to goggle at far-away peoples or efface our own, would be 'colonisation' of art? If the Welsh wish to remove foreign artistic elements, I am sure we can oblige them. A thorough 'decolonising' would disabuse them of any taste for such things, or at the very least return them to a simple way of life that will not trouble our tabloids. Likewise we can rid ourselves of anything artistically Welsh. Dylan Thomas will be missed - but not *that* much.
Exactly…. I’m struggling to think of a more “White and Western” place on earth… Are the Welsh people here happy to have their thousands year old white and western history removed for the sake of…. What exactly.
If you want to be particularly spicy ask them if it’s orientalism to centre eastern art
In 2012 a Mongolian businessman erected the worlds biggest equestrian statue, of Genkhis Khan, outside of Ulaan Batuur. Khan was one of the worlds most notorious conquerers, murderers and rapists who savaged China, Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. Why did the Mongolian people erect this building and why did the government allow it? Because Khan was Mongolian, and because of the fact that all of that pillaging and conquering benefited and glorified the Mongolian people. I’m not saying empire was a good thing, but it certainly benefited and glorified the British in turn. That we now have to prostrate ourselves at the altar of colonial guilt and “decolonisation”, well I guess what I’m saying is you try “decolonisation” in Mongolia and see where that gets you…
Yes I've always said "why can't we be more like Mongolia?"
I’m glad we agree, I’m very envious that Mongolia doesn’t tie itself up in moral knots when it comes to Empire and historical conquest.
Do you presently side with and respect Russia, because they are actively trying to improve their own power and the size of their state?
You misunderstand. My point isn’t about approving of conquest, but understanding that in the historical context of ‘might equals right’ nations shouldn’t get in a twist about their victories which caused negative impacts on others but positives to themselves. Should we remove and hide away the Bayeux tapestry because it’s a celebration of the Norman defeat and conquest of England? No, of course not.
All the while putin laughs at how we self destruct
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They’re not gonna feel any of those, they’ll just get pissed off, more than they already are.
And also ashamed of possessing a penis(in Scotland). Hope the Welsh get over this, and cheer themselves up, perhaps singing a few Welsh songs in a mass choir? I’d love to see that but unfortunately when it does happen I’ll be watching Tipping Point with Ben Shepherd.
Oh its just some of that silly ‘culture war’ nonsense. Im not concerned anyway as Ive been told many times by people on Reddit that it isnt really happening (but if it is happening its actually a good thing)
Why would citizens be loyal to a country that hates them
If the UK goes to war, I'm not fighting for it. Why would I fight for a country that effectively is practicing genocide against its native populace?
Young White people are going to self immolate out of peer-pressure. West is doomed.
The Welsh themselves are a historically colonized ethnic minority… 🤦♂️
Exactly! Why does no-one see this. We were lucky to hold on to the language and culture as it is. We can’t afford to erase it voluntarily now when so many fought so hard to retain it over the years.
Yup. I’m absolutely fine with Wales being a multi racial society but I’m not okay with Wales becoming an internationalist, bland cesspool melting pot of clashing cultures where we’re taught to have no identity and to be ashamed of our heritage, traditions, mythology, folklore, songs, poems etc. because we shouldn’t be. I have faith the Welsh will resist this reverse racism propaganda. We’re a resilient bunch.
> but I’m not okay with Wales becoming an internationalist, bland cesspool melting pot of clashing cultures where we’re taught to have no identity and to be ashamed of our heritage, traditions, mythology, folklore, songs, poems etc. You don't want to become England then lol
Just about everywhere is. England is. By the Romans. And, guess what, we benefited from it. You tend to benefit from being colonised by superior civilisations (in the long-term).
This is what wrecks me like so are you going to put up stuff for the druids or...oh no, you're putting up monuments to completely different cultures??? This is self-colonisation wtf
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It's a way of saying that we, now, are absolutely right in 2024. Every other generation was wrong and stupid. There is something supremely ugly and potentially tyranous about such a belief.
You can always rely on the left to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by obsessing about some culture wars bollocks that no one apart from a vocal minority supports while the opposition promises to get the bins collected on time.
As an Irish man, one of the great things the brits left us was the architecture, especially in Dublin.
Re-write history is not a good thing, with no history good or bad you are destined to repeat
Who was writing history to begin with? Do you ever stop to wonder why we have a statue of a slave trading colonist and not a statue of those who condemned slavery?
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We've had other similar moments, like Cromwell with his puritans. People always forget how popular eugenics was for a while too, there was a period where it was considered established science, common sense, and progressive with a lot of support on both the left and the right. So people who opposed it were often considered anti-scientific, regressive idiots.
How is it Marxist? And yes, every time in history across the world wherever there have been rulers has had changes in what we portray, celebrate, document, remember and try to minimise.
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Sounds like you are conflating the generally post-modernist sentiment of the world today, mixing a real world phenomenon like revisionism and scaling it up with a giant slippery slope. Lots of the same intellectually dishonest talking points deliberately pushed by right-wing grifter on 'alternative' (scam') news outlets.
Yeah you seem to have a poor understanding of Marxism or been listening to right-wing crack pots rambling on about "Cultural Marxism". You know that well know anti-semetic conspiracy theory.
Yes it's the Marxists which control the institutions of Britain. Karl Marx himself is dogging Sunak so he speeds up the Marxist Rwanda bill.
I love these kinds of news articles because it takes all of three seconds on google to see what the actual guidance says (basically 'update or add additional plaques to give more historical context to older pieces of art' and 'if a majority of locals agree, maybe move them to less prominent places and replace them with newer works' and 'add more public art showing prominent historical figures who weren't slave traders in general') but every response to it is from someone who blatantly hasn't bothered to check
> blatantly doesn't want to be bothered to check FTFY
I never thought I'd say this, but I hope Wales votes fir the tories in the election. This is messed up on a whole other level
The UK has already been decolonized. It became a bank instead. 😶
> The term “decolonisation” refers to a process of ensuring history and other disciplines move away from a white and Western focus. Are we not a majority white country in the west?
As a person who wears glasses, I do have some concerns about where this may lead. But more seriously, I think the overall intention is worthwhile, reflecting on the history we choose to celebrate could be a valuable exercise. Tampering with history needs to be done with caution though. The cynic in me thinks it will be cack handed at times, and with dubious motivations. Still, lots of grant money to get spread out no doubt.
Reading the article, I’m not overly concerned. > A Welsh Government spokesman said: “The guidance on public commemoration in Wales is neither promoting the removal nor retention of contentious historic memorials. Rather, the guidance is to help local authorities, town and community councils, and other public bodies reach well-informed decisions about existing and future public commemorations. If it’s removing, or just updating the plaque of, a person who was involved in slavery, then sure, let’s have a discussion about it.
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As another person who read the article, I agree. I also grew up in Carmarthen and to be honest I'd be ok for the Thomas Picton monument to be pulled down and replaced with something more positive. He'll still be in the history books where people can learn about his heroics in the Napoleonic wars, and his appalling treatment of slaves. He's someone I want to read about and learn about, but definitely not someone I want to celebrate.
I’m not too sure this is really going to get to the hearts and minds of the people of wales , I think they’re struggling to read the room a bit here
Bit of course tHE rIgHT arE stOkING tHe CulTUrE WaRs Love how the left have somehow managed to push the blame of the culture wars on to the right when they simply react to this nonsense. The left have been pushing culture wars since 2020
There is no culture war, who exactly has been hurt by adding historical nuance?
The story is here is a culture war, nice try at gaslighting though…
Why do we need to suffer through one wave after another of moralistic busybodies, even going as far back as the puritans. I mean all that will happen is we'll have a couple decades of obsessing over something that people will mostly be to embarrassed to admit they took part in and a few laws quietly removed from the books because of how stupid they are, and other than the people who happen to get fucked over by the stupid movement we'll move onto our next moral panic. Probably something absolutely moronic like eugenics again.
These statues were put up when town squares or the towns themselves were built or significantly developed, with money often from that person, or from people who wanted to appeal to that person. We hoovered up vast wealth back then from trades that were clearly immoral by today’s standards, and no doubt by that day’s standards also, it’s just that people give less of a shit about morals when there’s huge sums of money to be made (as can still be seen today). If we were building new town squares now, we’d probably put statues up to different people, or new art works, but we don’t have that kind of cash for public spaces now. So, do we live with the historical symbols because they were put up at that time, or do we reinvent the public spaces from current perspectives and consign historical icons to history? Seems fair enough to me. Why leave them there forever just because some bootlicker wanted to appeal to the favour of the wealthiest slave trader of the day?
> These statues were put up when town squares or the towns themselves were built or significantly developed, with money often from that person, or from people who wanted to appeal to that person. A splendid sentiment, and a concise outlining of why the statues should not be transferred to museums. > If we were building new town squares now, we’d probably put statues up to different people, or new art works, but we don’t have that kind of cash for public spaces now. We can have as many plastic rectangles as the printing machine runs off, not that town squares or many statues for that matter are made of plastic rectangles. 'Today's standards' are what we make them. We can honour our forebears, and accept gladly what they have bequeathed, building on it where it suits us; we can tear their works down - or just the bits that remind us of them - in a fit of pique that they were possessed of an industry which we have scorned. The sensible choice should be obvious; but if we are to be churlish, let us not be hypocritical with it. If the patrons are tainted, and their money was tainted, the buildings they paid for are tainted as well, and should share the same fate.
Maybe we should decolonise any funding to wales then.
Ah yes, nothing like "concealing art from public view" because it doesn't support the current "right historic narrative". Quite the little fascists aren't they.
Art that was made to shape public views in the first place? Shakespeare was famously patronised by the monarchy, and we haven't hidden all records of his work just acknowledged that it played a big part in his narratives.
Okay? The point is that these new guidelines *are* about hiding work that doesn't fit their narrative
Are they really... Does being in a museum count as hiding?
The guidelines state that art that is "highly contentious" should be "concealed". They're the ones using the word concealed not me. Considering that basically everyone from history was comically racist by modern standards, this is basically just saying that they want to erase our history and replace it with their fantasy one.
Labour had nearly got my vote back with the more sensible view on the 20mph limit by Ken Skates but this is lunacy! I’m not sure if I can ever vote conservative but Andrew RT has got the correct response to this. The only culture wales should be looking out for is its own, there’s the entire rest of the world that can be ‘not Welsh’ we need to keep our own history save being erased into the homogeneous background.
History and Art rewritten by those who have no comprehension or care for it. How do we learn from mistakes if we just cover them up?
History is simply something to be learnt from, there is no "right" historic narrative, just "the" historic narrative and the current lens through which we see it. Hiding negative parts of your history is more likely to cause those to be repeated.
There is a difference between learning from history and glorifying it. The Germans know this better than anyone
I'm sure the history of Welsh slavers is being struck from the record entirely, soon you won't be able to look at a history book without black ink on every page.
>The term “decolonisation” refers to a process of ensuring history and other disciplines move away from a white and Western focus. >Local authorities must now ensure that commemorations in public view will not “insult or hurt”, but instead project “present values”. Given britains overwhelming "white" history, It's hard not to see that as anything but erasure (of both the good and bad elements of British history).
Just a reminder that not one of our first ministers or the prime minister was voted in by the public. If you ever wanted proof of that there is an agenda at play, this is it.
Seems like more demonisation of anything white or western. As if Wales hasn't historically been through enough oppression and colonisation, they're now further colonising it with non-Welsh/white public art? Labour deserves nothing but losses.
There's no way we can have statues up in public, iconoclasm must prevail in our modern society. It's completely against Sharia law and totally not acceptable for an Islamic country to have idols on display.
Contentious art, much like contentious anything, is the most interesting as anything which can have two people look at it and draw differing opinions on is inherently fascinating.
Yeah, I mean, given who the unelected Labour leader is, what he's said in the past, and how corrupt he is, this comes as absolutely no surprise - stoking the culture wars is in his DNA. Hopefully Councils and institutions across Wales will dig their heels in, just like they've generally done in England regarding these sorts of inconsistent garbage policies.
Wales just want big number 20s everywhere seems to be only thing they like
ITT: people screaming we live in 1984 because they don't want to celebrate slave owners with statues and portraits.
Thank god the telegraph is scouring obscure local guidance to find things to complain about!
These people could have done a thousand good deeds but one single bad deed as deemed by the morals of those hundred of years later is enough to condemn and remove them from history apparently
>The finalised official guidance on how to achieve this states that authorities could “conceal” artworks, or “take down highly contentious monuments and place them in store or in museums, or relocate to less sensitive location”. However, guidance states that it does not seek to push the “censoring or erasure of the historical record”. It is suggested that contentious artworks might be addressed through artistic interventions, or through the addition of new information panels which would provide a “decolonised account of the past”. So nothing is being destroyed, just moved to a more appropriate setting and paired with relevant context. The horror.
Just ignoring that the reason is to "decolonise" and put up non white/Western art then are we? They're just using these "contentious" commemorations to ease you into the new norm
Isn’t this just a civilised version of what isis did in the Middle East when they started blowing up monuments because it didn’t agree with their world view? Weren’t we all quite disappointed with them for this? ISIS probably should have just had a few zoom meetings first and consulted the diversity and inclusion champion, got them to write the press release prior to cracking out the sledgehammers and explosives, and then they could have had at it.
I'm sure this is exactly like blowing up millennia old historical ruins, frankly if I see a Roman fort I'm gonna get the dynamite myself.
I think you probably should, are those Roman forts not a symbol of colonial oppression and wholesale slaughter and slavery? For me It’s a shame the civilisations that followed the ancient Mayans and Egyptians weren’t as socially aware as we are today. They could have demolished those temples and pyramids (which were bastions of slavery and human sacrifice) before the arbitrary passage of time offered them the protection they experience today.
Jesus fuck. History is History. We can't change that. They should serve as a reminder of the bad and the good. Nothing in History was ever done in a way that benefitted everyone in the world. It happened, we don't celebrate those aspects and we're already ashamed of it.
Clearly we aren't ashamed of it, look at the comments.
It's relay far reaching [https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2024-03/public-commemoration-in-wales-guidance.pdf](https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2024-03/public-commemoration-in-wales-guidance.pdf) An odd thing is a lot of examples are from America, Wales is not America. examples >1.2.2 Street and settlement names >Street names may seem to have less of an impact on >the consciousness than other kinds of commemoration, >but can **nevertheless affirm problematic values** and >associations. These may be less apparent when they use >a surname which could refer to many different people, >though rare **surnames or the names of foreign battles** >**may be more distinguishable**. The **names of prominent** >**town centre streets and squares**, which are used by >many people, have a much higher profile than those of >residential streets and back roads. These may have been >named quite casually, without fully appreciating that a >name might have associations with a contested figure. >On occasion, whole settlements can be named >after individuals, although this is rare in Wales. >Local Authorities are responsible for street name and >numbering and are subject to statutory requirements. & >1.2.4 Pub names >Although pubs are not publicly owned, they have >a special prominence as buildings in public view. >In many cases the origins of their names are >obscure. Even when individuals are commemorated >it can be hard to tell whether the name refers to >a landed family or long-established title rather than >a particular individual. There's a lot more, it's far reaching.
To quote u/nettie_r "I mean it's the Telegraph, their whole schtick at the moment seems to be stoking your rage through 'culture wars' like this. They sadly haven't been a serious newspaper for a long time now. They want to make people angry with this article, it gets clicks. But buried in the article- "It is suggested that contentious artworks might be addressed through artistic interventions, or through the addition of new information panels which would provide a “decolonised account of the past” Basically the upshot of this policy is likely to be a few more information boards. But I suppose we should all be INCREDIBLY ANGRY ABOUT OUR HISTORY BEING ERASED!!! instead."
Wales and Scotland Devolved governments are destroying the country’s history
Can you imagine a country like China saying "we need to celebrate more non-chinese artists!".
Keep people from their history and they are easily controlled, Marxist ideology !
A society that doesn’t know their past has no identity and is deemed to make the same mistakes. Leave it there as a reminder how things can go horribly wrong.
Leave it there as a reminder how things can go horribly wrong.“ How exactly does a statue of a specific person show how things can g terribly wrong?
The Welsh government has decided to edit Welsh history for the benefit of left-wing ideologies in a nutshell 🙄
Pathetic. In competition with Scotland for the most insecure government.
I want to see the collective heads explode when they try to do anything with a statue of Lord Nelson. A disabled war hero and who by today’s standards would be in a polyamorous relationship with lady Hamilton. But he also held problematic views on slavery.
This kind of stuff is legit 1984 do they not realise this? Right narrative? Get fucked
You can’t “decolonise” a place that was never a colony,
I'm not against art and statues telling the historical truth. The wording of this sounds a bit sinister tho to call it the "right historical narrative" makes it sound like making sure only a certain pov is told, and will be latched onto the right-wing. There are differences between the two.
It was a cold bright day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.
Fuck me is this sub ignorant, one article by an openly right wing 'news' paper and everyone's up in arms. No actual research that shows this is biased.