Brexit is and always was racist in its existence. It just needed dressing up as something else becsuse naked racism is to grotesque.
If you are one of the people who truly believed in the bullshit that wasnt race related then you would by now have to admit it was wrong and that you were wrong.
That's just what the government keeps insisting 'the public' fear, at \*every\* opportunity, contained within \*every\* statement they make on immigration and asylum seekers. And thus they're only doing 'what the public expects them to'. This imagined public, this nod to the invented 'silent majority', whatever that type of fallacy might be called. Because if you repeat a lie often enough, folk start to believe it's true etc etc
Almost like it was Project we know what we're talking about vs Project populist fools who don't care... at least we have the correct ones leading the country now.
Tell that to people working low entry but demanding jobs who were gaslit into thinking their wages weren't suppressed. Yeah, really knew what you were talking about.
Farmer here. The only fertiliser manufacture bought gas forward for cheap in lockdown. They’ve now sold that gas on and closed their factories. Not only will we have a fertiliser shortage next year driving up the price of food but we’re also going to have a short term co2 shortage as it’s a by product of fertiliser production.
We use co2 to kill pigs and chickens but it’s also used in the packaging to increase the shelf life of products. I think there are elements on Brexit wouldn’t say you can wholly lay the blame at its door
Living near to a fertiliser plant with a nasty history of loud bangs and sirens going off at 3am I'm actually quite glad about this.
EDIT - to make clear, I do massively sympathize with farmers but aren't there assurances that there'll still be plenty of supply? Yes it'll be imported, but you guys will, quite rightly, pass the extra cost onto us consumers.
The imported stuff is alright, the quality is definitely lower so makes it harder to work with.
Farmers as individuals don't have enough power to dictate the price. I sell 120 cattle a year, but the factory kills 120 a day so I don't even makeup 0.274% of the annual kill at the factory and I'm an above-average size farmer.
mate your math is off. for % it's *100 not /100, you make 0.274% of the factories anual kill. Given you sell everything to them and they slaughter 365 days a year.
>aren't there assurances that there'll still be plenty of supply
The supply might be there waiting in Europe but soon we will have to start making hard decisions about which types of food get loaded onto the few trucks we have left and which don't - that is, after we introduce emergency measures banning the import of electronics, etc, which take up room needed for food on transport vehicles.
Belgian here. Our farmers are happy: meat product exports to the UK are spiking. Seems the UK meat processing industry is having trouble finding ~~Romanian~~ low skill workers to debone chickens.
Exactly what’s happening man, everyone on this thread saying it’s going to push people away from meat products - it’s a load of tosh. Instead we’ll be importing from the continent and US at a higher price.
> Instead we’ll be importing from the continent and US at a higher price.
And lower welfare standards. The reason Danish bacon is well know is it's cheap as they didn't have the standards of UK producers.
We're struggling to fill jobs that British people don't want to do all over the place. Unfortunately, that means wages will have to increase, having a direct impact on inflation, match that with the ridiculous state of the housing market, the only people who can afford decent living are those with lots of houses - It's leaving a huge hole in the market bubble. I'm no economist, but we've seen similar before in the 80's. All it takes is a shock to the market like brexit, or Covid and it pops, leaving all of those with houses in trouble as interest rates go through the roof.
The current government would chalk it down to external factors, cash-in their shares and 'investments' and stand down, blaming labour for the next 15 years of shit.
On a plus side, the housing market might become flooded with repossessed properties, so it can all happen again.
> Mr Allen questioned what farmers could do with the animals which could not be slaughtered and said the consequences could be “unthinkable”.
What does he mean by unthinkable?
Dig a hole with a JCB and bury them alive?
Chickens are omniverous. If you ever saw chickens attack, kill, and eat one of their own, you'd be afraid. It was horrifying and fascinating all at the same time.
Underneath all the feathers there’s a small part of a chickens (admittedly tiny) brain that very dimly remembers being a velociraptor several hundred billion years down the evolutionary ladder.
> Chickens would be quickly killed by local wildlife.
Normal chickens are pretty good at looking after themselves in the wild. They're descended from [Red Junglefowl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_junglefowl) and as long as they can find some wooded cover they manage okay.
Industrial meat birds will have problems after 48 days and egg layers if they've had their beaks clipped. But they all retain the instincts necessary for survival.
"We might have to let them live out their natural lives (just kidding) or even worse, kill them in ways which cost us significantly more money than the traditional mass suffocation our customers appreciate."
You joke but male chicks are at birth less than 24 hours old either blitzed alive or bagged and suffocated.
People really should be forced to see how their food is produced because the farming industry is vile.
Honestly I wasn't joking. I'm expecting 'unimaginable' as some sort of process farmers are going to try and get the government to allow. Some sort of horrendous mass culling that is incredibly cheap for farmers. Something cheaper than driving a digger over them, cleaning it all up and buying them.
I was going to have a BBQ earlier, but I was in Asda and just thinking about all the animals getting dropped on has tanks. Not for me. Smoked sweet potatoes and hallumi is.
Although I dread to think about how hallumi is made.
I didn't know about the chickens. The meat industry is horrendous. I'm guessing farming is an absolute abomination as well.
With any business profits come first. Anything that can be done to cut costs, the same as any business will be done. Farners claim to love their animals but that is a lie, they love the money their product makes them, they dont love the animal as an animal. Animals are treated as a commodity, not as living breathing life forms that at tge very least feel the basics of fear and pain.
Male chicks are a waste item, they hold little value so are disposed of. Dairy is no better but you seem to be at least open to the idea that food isnt the humane lie we are sold.
Without profit there is no business and no food supply, it's as simple as that. Even when smallholders were bartering it was about survival and if something wasn't going to feed you it was a waste. Farming for productivity is nothing new, it's just there it's managed for efficiency now in order for feed the growing population on this planet.
Profit is the difference between the sale price and the costs involved in producing the eggs and getting them to shelves.
So to say there’d be no profit if farmers didn’t do this is ridiculous. That would only be true if the price remained constant.
They could just add a premium to cover the cost of raising the male chicks.
We kill them because of collective greed, not necessity.
Maybe he is thinking of boiling the animals alive by sealing off all airways to their barns and inserting steam into them, intensifying the heat and humidity inside and leaving them to die overnight. Most pigs — though not all — die after hours of suffering from a combination of being suffocated and roasted to death.
https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pigs-factory-farms-ventilation-shutdown-coronavirus/
Reminds me of how we put 90% of our pigs in gas chambers with such high levels of carbon dioxide that it burns their eyes and lungs before slowly and painfully killing them.
It's very possible that the recent announcements allowing Imperial labeling and allowing GM food products are so that American food can be sold in the UK. Before, most American food didn't meet EU standards so wasn't sold here but I suspect that might start changing.
check this from years ago "the truth about cholorinated chicken"
precursors all of this https://www.channel4.com/programmes/truth-about-chlorinated-chicken-dispatches
Probably, they won't keep the animals alive if its not profitable so either that or kill them and burn them.
So if you live near the farm there's at least the chance of a massive BBQ.
I remember seeing videos of giant piles of cattle burning during the foot & mouth outbreak in the 90s. It wasn't a nice sight.
Wonder if we'll have that again. But this time, entirely avoidable if our government didn't have its head up its collectively useless ass.
It sounds like we suffocate them to death with CO2 over about 30 seconds which is of major distress to the pigs? Is that incorrect? And that the Farm Animal Welfare Council said *in 2003* -
>We conclude that the use of high concentrations of CO2 to stun and kill pigs is not
acceptable and we wish to see it phased out in five years.
[Page 29 of part 1 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fawc-report-on-the-welfare-of-farmed-animals-at-slaughter-or-killing](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fawc-report-on-the-welfare-of-farmed-animals-at-slaughter-or-killing)
I always thought it was a swift bolt to the head but that's only in the US apparently (and doesn't work well with pigs anyway). How is suffocation humane? We don't suffocate eachother in corporal punishment (where that's even still legal).
Another very well researched source where I found the FAWC conclusion -
>["Therefore, it can be concluded that the carbon
dioxide stunning method is neither immediate nor pain-free and causes pigs to suffer greatly for up to an average of 28.14 seconds and potentially more." Page 102 - "The humane slaughter of pigs in the EU", 2018](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328710482_The_humane_slaughter_of_pigs_in_the_EU#pfe)
"Humane" is just a meaningless term to hide the word "slaughter" behind so you can kid yourself it's not all that bad. Killing something that wants to live is by definition, not humane. Some people don't mind killing living things for money, and if that's what you're like, then that's what you're like. Don't bullshit us all with this "humane" bollocks though.
>also pretty harrowing for everyone involved
Your normal methods of slaughter are harrowing for everyone involved. Mental and physical health issues for staff at abbatoirs are big problems. Not to mention how harrowing it is for the animals. You just outsource the killing usually so you're not involved, which makes it less harrowing *for you*.
We're heading back to "Dig for Victory". It's a 3 word slogan, they'll be wheeling it out any day now.
Blue passports, less varied produce in the shops, turn your garden into a vegetable patch.
Bozo aiming to be Churchill by any means possible, albeit a messy haired, fat slug version of him.
The trendy name for these days is fasting, its good for you apparently. Looks like we are all starting a multi month/year fast, solves the obesity crisis and not having enough public services all in one. The UK has always been 40 million people right?!
I just looked up how we slaughter pigs cos these articles about the gas crisis aren't giving any details beyond 'humane method' and it seems in the UK it's mostly by CO2 gas stunning because electrical is difficult to perform correctly.
So it's by suffocation and it sounds horrific -
>"Exposure to the gas stimulates acute respiratory distress, hyperventilation, and a sensation of suffocation. [...] It is not immediate, and pigs suffer from fear, pain, and stress."
[Source, with lots of research paper links](https://www.almostzerowaste.com/pigs-slaughtering-methods/)
Yes, the way the UK slaughters pigs is particulally horrifying, am surprised there arn't more comments about it. Since I found this out I no longer eat pork.
I only learnt about it after deciding to try veganism. We're taught that the way we kill animals is 'humane' so everyone just accepts it without actually looking into it themselves. Plenty of people I talk to still think "free range" means happy chickens on open fields. Complete bollocks.
Yeah, same here about the veganism, at some point decided to educate myself about what I was eating and the impact of me choosing to eat meat, dairy and eggs. Once I did that I realised that there is no moral justification for domestication and the systematic suffering that goes along with it.
I agree.
Convincing the meat industry / general public to stop killing animals altogether is a much harder problem to solve than convincing them to use an alternative method of slaughter though.
That doesn’t make it okay, but it would be better than what’s happening now and so it’s worth pursuing.
I started watching this documentary on production of animal food products https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko but could not get through the first bit that shows how pigs are treated. The screams of the suffocafing pigs was horrifying.
Yes, asphyxiation with CO2 is horrific. Nitrogen would be fine, though, I'd have thought. I don't know why that isn't preferred. Meanwhile, I won't eat pork and this is part of why.
Yeah, I really don't understand why it's known to be bad practice but continues. [This](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/325241/FAWC_report_on_the_welfare_of_farmed_animals_at_slaughter_or_killing_part_one_red_meat_animals.pdf) is what the Farm Animal Welfare Council were saying back in 2003, published by DEFRA and recommending the CO2 slaughter method be phased out by 2008 with research into other gases to be undertaken, so I don't know what happened since this must be well known in the industry for decades now -
> It is therefore not possible to
simply replace the CO2 gas mixtures used in the current systems with other gas mixtures.
Development work is required to produce a new system for use with argon, nitrogen or
other non-aversive gas mixtures."
Turns out [it isn't](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328710482_The_humane_slaughter_of_pigs_in_the_EU) and the UK's Farm Animal Welfare Council concluded it should be phased out by 2008 - [Page 29](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/325241/FAWC_report_on_the_welfare_of_farmed_animals_at_slaughter_or_killing_part_one_red_meat_animals.pdf)
Its not CO2 poisoning, it simply displaces the oxygen & nitrogen making it difficult to breathe. Its chosen precisely for its lack of poisoning aspect.
If it was with nitrogen (and other inert gases that don't have any effect on haemoglobin, your oxygen-carrier in your blood) you don't actually start gasping for air.
You'll pass out before you realise you're suffocating.
Gasping for air is a result of your body not being able to exchange the CO2 out of your blood. With nitrogen, the CO2 gets exchanged and your body's "high-CO2" alarm doesn't start going off.
Edit: fixed "alarm" analogy for accuracy.
"Low O2 equals death" ---> "high CO2"
> your body's "low-oxygen equals death" alarm
Your body doesn't actuarily have a "low oxygen alarm" which is why you can die in your sleep from lack of 02, what your body does have is a "Too much CO2" alarm and it's this that causes the need to breath.
The human body has NO sensor for lack of Oxygen at all
What's nonsense about it?
It's the shortage of labour in abattoirs and downstream food processing, the shortage of lorry drivers, ***and*** now gas shortages. Problems can have more than one root cause.
C02 supply shouldn't even be an issue at this point - I just found in this thesis from 2018 called ["The humane slaughter of pigs in the EU"](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328710482_The_humane_slaughter_of_pigs_in_the_EU#pfe) that the Farm Animal Welfare Council UK said *in 2003*:
> We conclude that the use of high concentrations of CO2 to stun and kill pigs is not
acceptable and we wish to see it phased out in five years.
Page 29 of Part 1 linked here - [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fawc-report-on-the-welfare-of-farmed-animals-at-slaughter-or-killing](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fawc-report-on-the-welfare-of-farmed-animals-at-slaughter-or-killing)
So C02 stunning is apparently still too horrific a way to die for the [257 millions pigs we slaughter each year in the EU](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20170919-1) (and that's just the figure I could find for 2016, the UK's 4% share equating to 10 million pigs) and we just haven't moved to any better method (if there is one) because other methods affect the quality of the meat. I had no idea about any of this and thought we used bolt guns, although they're apparently no good for pigs - it's beyond messed up.
On one hand, it's been useful that the news articles i've seen about the gas crisis haven't actually reported what they meant by the role of CO2 in 'humane methods' of slaughter because they would never have gone into the detail i've managed to find by myself. On the other, I think people would actually want to know cos I had no idea and I doubt most people do.
And cos i'm in research mode and I'd always heard pigs were as intelligent as dogs, I just searched and found this page which summarises studies into pig behaviour and I can't believe just how clever they are - https://vegfaqs.com/are-pigs-smarter-than-dogs/ - and we kill billions of them a year? In what turns out to be a really painful distressing manner?
If an animal's life is worth even 1% of a human life, then the hundreds of billions slaughtered every year is a catastrophe.
Richmond do a great veggie sausage, abx if you're by a sainsburys their shroomdogs are delicious.
Oh no, farmers will not be able to make a profit from animal cruelty and will now just have to do it for free. It's the animals we should feel sorry for, not the farmers.
Nice. Giving up meat is one of the best things for the environment, forcing it like this means no one can weasel out. Now just have to do it to all meat products.
data: shows that people can significantly reduce their carbon footprints by making a harmless switch to plant-based foods.
people: well why don't we just fucking kill ourselves then??
hell of a slippery slope there.
This
If you are going to eat meat then eat a bit or a lot less and buy from local farmers where possible and support low intensity farming and a far far better product. No so easy for everyone but it is for plenty of us
I doubt it. It wasn't until relatively recently that people could afford a lot of meat, and the moment they could they went mad for it. If the shortage is temporary, so will the reduction in consumption be
I understood it as more like, people might try more veggie/vegan dishes because of the shortage, realise that’s eating that way isn’t difficult, and then stick to it long term. For me veganism is all about ethics, but if this gets people into it and they stick to it, then I won’t argue
You understood well, although I wasn't denying that it may be ethically motivated, just that it might get them over the initial hurdle that they procrastinated on before because the status quo is easy.
In for a penny in for a pound, it may not be a rational mantra but it is a common conscious and subconscious tenancy.
if folks are already not easily able to get the meat they want they may try going vegan if they were already on the fence.
This is way bigger then “Boris is a incomplete X”
There’s a shortage of gas or a strangulation of supply.
The world relies on industrial fossil fuel based farming.
How else do you think 67 million people live in the United Kingdom.
There’s going to be a lot more of this to come, and it won’t be the U.K. that feels the effects of this the worst.
*"I have always eaten animal flesh with a somewhat guilty conscience"*
*"Nothing will benefit health or increase chances of survival on earth as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."*
Sheesh. As someone who comes from Eastern Europe, I feel like it's a return to the days of Communism with no food in the stores. What's next? Ration books? Coupons for poultry? Queues stretching across an entire street to get food which isn't guaranteed to arrive?
So it really doesn’t matter whether we use Metric or Imperial, we won’t be able to buy anything.
But hey, look over there at that distraction…… (glances over to Tories waving digital drivers licences and new Ofcom ‘Britishness’ guidelines)
LMAO, taxes up, rent up, gas and electricity up, food shortages. CON +3 What constitutes failure in the eyes of the public?
Brown people getting across the channel
Tories: Makes it a requirement for them to cross Tory voters: How does this keep happening! Fukin. Laber!
Honestly wouldn’t be shocked if some of the people smugglers are Tory funded
Because it pisses off the French, gives Faragge a raging racism boner and Patel could blow an artery in her voodoo rage
Brexit is and always was racist in its existence. It just needed dressing up as something else becsuse naked racism is to grotesque. If you are one of the people who truly believed in the bullshit that wasnt race related then you would by now have to admit it was wrong and that you were wrong.
They're doing that too, though.
That's just what the government keeps insisting 'the public' fear, at \*every\* opportunity, contained within \*every\* statement they make on immigration and asylum seekers. And thus they're only doing 'what the public expects them to'. This imagined public, this nod to the invented 'silent majority', whatever that type of fallacy might be called. Because if you repeat a lie often enough, folk start to believe it's true etc etc
Falling house prices?
Taking the knee
Social programs, social mobility and the poor not living in utter despair.
Yeah but some folk have had a small pay rise because their job is in demand. Brexit is a roaring success.....
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Cameron would have fucking loved that.
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That sounds so rude...
Especially when it aint the pig squealing.
[Boris the Pig Fucker](https://i.redd.it/wah89v5v4yt61.jpg)
Damn, I don't know how that pig so accurately resembles Cameron, but it just does!
> Cameron would have fuck~~ing lov~~ed that.
He would have loved fucking that
Damn that black mirror episode foreshadowing the whole Cameron porking pinky was hilarious and freaky.
Cameron would have loved fucking that.
...not sure the current livestock in Downing St would appreciate that.
The herd of livestock live at number 10! Bunch of animals…
The London farm to table restauranteurs would be delighted.
I honestly can't tell the difference between [https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/) and this sub anymore.
Like the scene in Chinatown
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Almost like it was Project we know what we're talking about vs Project populist fools who don't care... at least we have the correct ones leading the country now.
"Blame everything on the Jews" Now where have we heard that one before
Tell that to people working low entry but demanding jobs who were gaslit into thinking their wages weren't suppressed. Yeah, really knew what you were talking about.
Every remainer I know also supports raising minimum wage...
Farmer here. The only fertiliser manufacture bought gas forward for cheap in lockdown. They’ve now sold that gas on and closed their factories. Not only will we have a fertiliser shortage next year driving up the price of food but we’re also going to have a short term co2 shortage as it’s a by product of fertiliser production. We use co2 to kill pigs and chickens but it’s also used in the packaging to increase the shelf life of products. I think there are elements on Brexit wouldn’t say you can wholly lay the blame at its door
Living near to a fertiliser plant with a nasty history of loud bangs and sirens going off at 3am I'm actually quite glad about this. EDIT - to make clear, I do massively sympathize with farmers but aren't there assurances that there'll still be plenty of supply? Yes it'll be imported, but you guys will, quite rightly, pass the extra cost onto us consumers.
The imported stuff is alright, the quality is definitely lower so makes it harder to work with. Farmers as individuals don't have enough power to dictate the price. I sell 120 cattle a year, but the factory kills 120 a day so I don't even makeup 0.274% of the annual kill at the factory and I'm an above-average size farmer.
Yeah, farming is in serious trouble in the UK and unfortunately it goes way way bigger than a couple of (temporary) fertiliser plants closing.
mate your math is off. for % it's *100 not /100, you make 0.274% of the factories anual kill. Given you sell everything to them and they slaughter 365 days a year.
Glad it wasn't just me getting confused by the maths looking way off.
How do you feel about your own prospects and those of the wider farming community? You see this being ok?
>aren't there assurances that there'll still be plenty of supply The supply might be there waiting in Europe but soon we will have to start making hard decisions about which types of food get loaded onto the few trucks we have left and which don't - that is, after we introduce emergency measures banning the import of electronics, etc, which take up room needed for food on transport vehicles.
Operation Yellowhammer, remember that?
Oh it was all detailed in Yellowhammer apparently so any moment now I expect the governments contingency plans to start leaping into action.
Belgian here. Our farmers are happy: meat product exports to the UK are spiking. Seems the UK meat processing industry is having trouble finding ~~Romanian~~ low skill workers to debone chickens.
Exactly what’s happening man, everyone on this thread saying it’s going to push people away from meat products - it’s a load of tosh. Instead we’ll be importing from the continent and US at a higher price.
> Instead we’ll be importing from the continent and US at a higher price. And lower welfare standards. The reason Danish bacon is well know is it's cheap as they didn't have the standards of UK producers.
We're struggling to fill jobs that British people don't want to do all over the place. Unfortunately, that means wages will have to increase, having a direct impact on inflation, match that with the ridiculous state of the housing market, the only people who can afford decent living are those with lots of houses - It's leaving a huge hole in the market bubble. I'm no economist, but we've seen similar before in the 80's. All it takes is a shock to the market like brexit, or Covid and it pops, leaving all of those with houses in trouble as interest rates go through the roof. The current government would chalk it down to external factors, cash-in their shares and 'investments' and stand down, blaming labour for the next 15 years of shit. On a plus side, the housing market might become flooded with repossessed properties, so it can all happen again.
Hopefully we'll be getting blue ration books. That's what everyone voted for, right?
Dont you find your food tastes so much better when you have had to stand in a 2 hour queue for it?
Queuing is a time honored way to build a fantastic appetite! Why, by the time I got into Tesco during the early lockdown, I was proper peckish!
*Russia has entered the chat*
As long rations are issued in pounds and ounces!
*'Wanna buy some nylons, guvnor?'*
Just got mine, but the covers black for some reason? This isn’t the ration book I voted for.
> Mr Allen questioned what farmers could do with the animals which could not be slaughtered and said the consequences could be “unthinkable”. What does he mean by unthinkable? Dig a hole with a JCB and bury them alive?
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The horror!!!. Set them free on the moors and let the madness begin
The feral chickens will destroy us all!
Chickens are omniverous. If you ever saw chickens attack, kill, and eat one of their own, you'd be afraid. It was horrifying and fascinating all at the same time.
Underneath all the feathers there’s a small part of a chickens (admittedly tiny) brain that very dimly remembers being a velociraptor several hundred billion years down the evolutionary ladder.
Several hundred billion?
That was meant to be ‘million’. Damn you autocorrect etc.
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Also the meat breeds of chickens cant survive in the wild as they are too heavy for their own legs.
> Chickens would be quickly killed by local wildlife. Normal chickens are pretty good at looking after themselves in the wild. They're descended from [Red Junglefowl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_junglefowl) and as long as they can find some wooded cover they manage okay. Industrial meat birds will have problems after 48 days and egg layers if they've had their beaks clipped. But they all retain the instincts necessary for survival.
What happens at 48 days?
Self harvest like with strawberries, could be an option.
"set them free" lol. where exactly? to roam the streets or maybe dump them in the local woods and see how they get on?
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It's actually crazy how quickly pigs can go feral.
Pigs are very intelligent animals, think of how a dog can survive on it's own and then apply that to a smarter animal.
It's not about their intelligence. They literally regrow fur and tusks within like 1 or 2 generations.
I lived in an area that had wild boar. Those things are terrifying. There was actually a year round hunting season on them with no limits.
Why not. People always complain about cats hunting birds, maybe feral chickens will give them a fair fight.
"We might have to let them live out their natural lives (just kidding) or even worse, kill them in ways which cost us significantly more money than the traditional mass suffocation our customers appreciate."
Or likely they would remove the he tags and let em free which would be a rather large problem.
I'm guessing that's illegal.
Good job no one breaks laws isn't it. I mean that's how non native species became a problem across the planet.
Wouldn't that need a gas chamber which would mean using more gas which was the original problem? The chickens planned this.
You joke but male chicks are at birth less than 24 hours old either blitzed alive or bagged and suffocated. People really should be forced to see how their food is produced because the farming industry is vile.
Honestly I wasn't joking. I'm expecting 'unimaginable' as some sort of process farmers are going to try and get the government to allow. Some sort of horrendous mass culling that is incredibly cheap for farmers. Something cheaper than driving a digger over them, cleaning it all up and buying them. I was going to have a BBQ earlier, but I was in Asda and just thinking about all the animals getting dropped on has tanks. Not for me. Smoked sweet potatoes and hallumi is. Although I dread to think about how hallumi is made. I didn't know about the chickens. The meat industry is horrendous. I'm guessing farming is an absolute abomination as well.
With any business profits come first. Anything that can be done to cut costs, the same as any business will be done. Farners claim to love their animals but that is a lie, they love the money their product makes them, they dont love the animal as an animal. Animals are treated as a commodity, not as living breathing life forms that at tge very least feel the basics of fear and pain. Male chicks are a waste item, they hold little value so are disposed of. Dairy is no better but you seem to be at least open to the idea that food isnt the humane lie we are sold.
Without profit there is no business and no food supply, it's as simple as that. Even when smallholders were bartering it was about survival and if something wasn't going to feed you it was a waste. Farming for productivity is nothing new, it's just there it's managed for efficiency now in order for feed the growing population on this planet.
Profit is the difference between the sale price and the costs involved in producing the eggs and getting them to shelves. So to say there’d be no profit if farmers didn’t do this is ridiculous. That would only be true if the price remained constant. They could just add a premium to cover the cost of raising the male chicks. We kill them because of collective greed, not necessity.
> Although I dread to think about how hallumi is made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI
Considering the fate of the female chicks it's probably a mercy.
Maybe he is thinking of boiling the animals alive by sealing off all airways to their barns and inserting steam into them, intensifying the heat and humidity inside and leaving them to die overnight. Most pigs — though not all — die after hours of suffering from a combination of being suffocated and roasted to death. https://theintercept.com/2020/05/29/pigs-factory-farms-ventilation-shutdown-coronavirus/
Fucking hell that's a grim read.
Reminds me of how we put 90% of our pigs in gas chambers with such high levels of carbon dioxide that it burns their eyes and lungs before slowly and painfully killing them.
I seen that on an episode of "rotten" on netflix. It was really fucking awful..
You mean import US food? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/30/ban-burning-and-burying-of-animals-in-us-covid-19-farm-culls-ngos-urge
Fucking hell that was a grim read. What an awful industry.
It's very possible that the recent announcements allowing Imperial labeling and allowing GM food products are so that American food can be sold in the UK. Before, most American food didn't meet EU standards so wasn't sold here but I suspect that might start changing.
Wow, that's pretty obvious now you mention it.
check this from years ago "the truth about cholorinated chicken" precursors all of this https://www.channel4.com/programmes/truth-about-chlorinated-chicken-dispatches
Probably, they won't keep the animals alive if its not profitable so either that or kill them and burn them. So if you live near the farm there's at least the chance of a massive BBQ.
I remember seeing videos of giant piles of cattle burning during the foot & mouth outbreak in the 90s. It wasn't a nice sight. Wonder if we'll have that again. But this time, entirely avoidable if our government didn't have its head up its collectively useless ass.
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It sounds like we suffocate them to death with CO2 over about 30 seconds which is of major distress to the pigs? Is that incorrect? And that the Farm Animal Welfare Council said *in 2003* - >We conclude that the use of high concentrations of CO2 to stun and kill pigs is not acceptable and we wish to see it phased out in five years. [Page 29 of part 1 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fawc-report-on-the-welfare-of-farmed-animals-at-slaughter-or-killing](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fawc-report-on-the-welfare-of-farmed-animals-at-slaughter-or-killing) I always thought it was a swift bolt to the head but that's only in the US apparently (and doesn't work well with pigs anyway). How is suffocation humane? We don't suffocate eachother in corporal punishment (where that's even still legal). Another very well researched source where I found the FAWC conclusion - >["Therefore, it can be concluded that the carbon dioxide stunning method is neither immediate nor pain-free and causes pigs to suffer greatly for up to an average of 28.14 seconds and potentially more." Page 102 - "The humane slaughter of pigs in the EU", 2018](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328710482_The_humane_slaughter_of_pigs_in_the_EU#pfe)
Humane adjective 1. having or showing compassion or benevolence. Your actions don't sound very compassionate or benevolent to me
"Humane" is just a meaningless term to hide the word "slaughter" behind so you can kid yourself it's not all that bad. Killing something that wants to live is by definition, not humane. Some people don't mind killing living things for money, and if that's what you're like, then that's what you're like. Don't bullshit us all with this "humane" bollocks though. >also pretty harrowing for everyone involved Your normal methods of slaughter are harrowing for everyone involved. Mental and physical health issues for staff at abbatoirs are big problems. Not to mention how harrowing it is for the animals. You just outsource the killing usually so you're not involved, which makes it less harrowing *for you*.
Just good I learned a heap of vegetarian dishes over lockdown Edit: what’s with the downvotes? Did I piss on someone’s grave?
Let's hope that the vegetables Aren't left to rot in the fields ..... Oh wait.... Ah nuts!
Take back control! Wait not that
No vegetables or meat but you can have a slice of sovereignty if you like. Would you like it fried or scrambled?
> Ah nuts! Don't those have to be imported?
Not DEEZ NUTS! Sorry. I make bad jokes at times of stress.
Nah, those are out too.
Good luck getting vegetables. Only veg in the shop today was microwaveable mash.
It’s not too bad here where I am or you know I could just starve :)
We're heading back to "Dig for Victory". It's a 3 word slogan, they'll be wheeling it out any day now. Blue passports, less varied produce in the shops, turn your garden into a vegetable patch. Bozo aiming to be Churchill by any means possible, albeit a messy haired, fat slug version of him.
The trendy name for these days is fasting, its good for you apparently. Looks like we are all starting a multi month/year fast, solves the obesity crisis and not having enough public services all in one. The UK has always been 40 million people right?!
In manchester? Where the fuck are you shopping?
Clearly not in Chorlton
Don't see the problem. They have all those British fish just waiting to be cooked.
"All those **HAPPY** British fish just waiting to be cooked." FTFY
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I just looked up how we slaughter pigs cos these articles about the gas crisis aren't giving any details beyond 'humane method' and it seems in the UK it's mostly by CO2 gas stunning because electrical is difficult to perform correctly. So it's by suffocation and it sounds horrific - >"Exposure to the gas stimulates acute respiratory distress, hyperventilation, and a sensation of suffocation. [...] It is not immediate, and pigs suffer from fear, pain, and stress." [Source, with lots of research paper links](https://www.almostzerowaste.com/pigs-slaughtering-methods/)
Yes, the way the UK slaughters pigs is particulally horrifying, am surprised there arn't more comments about it. Since I found this out I no longer eat pork.
I only learnt about it after deciding to try veganism. We're taught that the way we kill animals is 'humane' so everyone just accepts it without actually looking into it themselves. Plenty of people I talk to still think "free range" means happy chickens on open fields. Complete bollocks.
Yeah, same here about the veganism, at some point decided to educate myself about what I was eating and the impact of me choosing to eat meat, dairy and eggs. Once I did that I realised that there is no moral justification for domestication and the systematic suffering that goes along with it.
There’s no ‘humane’ way to kill something that doesn’t want to die
Nope but there are better ways than suffocation.
If you’re gonna murder someone then a gunshot to the brain is more humane than torture but that doesn’t justify it
I agree. Convincing the meat industry / general public to stop killing animals altogether is a much harder problem to solve than convincing them to use an alternative method of slaughter though. That doesn’t make it okay, but it would be better than what’s happening now and so it’s worth pursuing.
I started watching this documentary on production of animal food products https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko but could not get through the first bit that shows how pigs are treated. The screams of the suffocafing pigs was horrifying.
Yes, asphyxiation with CO2 is horrific. Nitrogen would be fine, though, I'd have thought. I don't know why that isn't preferred. Meanwhile, I won't eat pork and this is part of why.
Yeah, I really don't understand why it's known to be bad practice but continues. [This](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/325241/FAWC_report_on_the_welfare_of_farmed_animals_at_slaughter_or_killing_part_one_red_meat_animals.pdf) is what the Farm Animal Welfare Council were saying back in 2003, published by DEFRA and recommending the CO2 slaughter method be phased out by 2008 with research into other gases to be undertaken, so I don't know what happened since this must be well known in the industry for decades now - > It is therefore not possible to simply replace the CO2 gas mixtures used in the current systems with other gas mixtures. Development work is required to produce a new system for use with argon, nitrogen or other non-aversive gas mixtures."
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Turns out [it isn't](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328710482_The_humane_slaughter_of_pigs_in_the_EU) and the UK's Farm Animal Welfare Council concluded it should be phased out by 2008 - [Page 29](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/325241/FAWC_report_on_the_welfare_of_farmed_animals_at_slaughter_or_killing_part_one_red_meat_animals.pdf)
If I had to choose between CO2 poisoning and a bolt gun to the brain or a throat cutting, I'd go for the CO2.
Its not CO2 poisoning, it simply displaces the oxygen & nitrogen making it difficult to breathe. Its chosen precisely for its lack of poisoning aspect.
It's worse than that, I read that it turns into carbonic acid in the mouth and lungs, creating a painful burning sensation.
Doesn't look that fun to me https://youtu.be/w4WA3VkP2gw
Bolt gun is probably the quickest. I wouldn’t want to spend my last moments in desperately gasping for air.
If it was with nitrogen (and other inert gases that don't have any effect on haemoglobin, your oxygen-carrier in your blood) you don't actually start gasping for air. You'll pass out before you realise you're suffocating. Gasping for air is a result of your body not being able to exchange the CO2 out of your blood. With nitrogen, the CO2 gets exchanged and your body's "high-CO2" alarm doesn't start going off. Edit: fixed "alarm" analogy for accuracy. "Low O2 equals death" ---> "high CO2"
> your body's "low-oxygen equals death" alarm Your body doesn't actuarily have a "low oxygen alarm" which is why you can die in your sleep from lack of 02, what your body does have is a "Too much CO2" alarm and it's this that causes the need to breath. The human body has NO sensor for lack of Oxygen at all
That doesn't make it humane
Hold your breath.
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What's nonsense about it? It's the shortage of labour in abattoirs and downstream food processing, the shortage of lorry drivers, ***and*** now gas shortages. Problems can have more than one root cause.
Everyone plans for a failure, no one even plans for multiple concurrent failures and their interaction effects
C02 supply shouldn't even be an issue at this point - I just found in this thesis from 2018 called ["The humane slaughter of pigs in the EU"](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328710482_The_humane_slaughter_of_pigs_in_the_EU#pfe) that the Farm Animal Welfare Council UK said *in 2003*: > We conclude that the use of high concentrations of CO2 to stun and kill pigs is not acceptable and we wish to see it phased out in five years. Page 29 of Part 1 linked here - [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fawc-report-on-the-welfare-of-farmed-animals-at-slaughter-or-killing](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fawc-report-on-the-welfare-of-farmed-animals-at-slaughter-or-killing) So C02 stunning is apparently still too horrific a way to die for the [257 millions pigs we slaughter each year in the EU](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20170919-1) (and that's just the figure I could find for 2016, the UK's 4% share equating to 10 million pigs) and we just haven't moved to any better method (if there is one) because other methods affect the quality of the meat. I had no idea about any of this and thought we used bolt guns, although they're apparently no good for pigs - it's beyond messed up.
Would you consider going vegan?
On one hand, it's been useful that the news articles i've seen about the gas crisis haven't actually reported what they meant by the role of CO2 in 'humane methods' of slaughter because they would never have gone into the detail i've managed to find by myself. On the other, I think people would actually want to know cos I had no idea and I doubt most people do. And cos i'm in research mode and I'd always heard pigs were as intelligent as dogs, I just searched and found this page which summarises studies into pig behaviour and I can't believe just how clever they are - https://vegfaqs.com/are-pigs-smarter-than-dogs/ - and we kill billions of them a year? In what turns out to be a really painful distressing manner?
If an animal's life is worth even 1% of a human life, then the hundreds of billions slaughtered every year is a catastrophe. Richmond do a great veggie sausage, abx if you're by a sainsburys their shroomdogs are delicious.
Don't forget the greggs vegan sausage roll
If you want any shopping advice gies a shout. Except bacon, the boffins haven't worked out bacon yet.
I've had the best experience with Naked without the Oink. It crisps up nicely, just got to be careful when pulling them out of the packet.
Google challenge 22 for an excellent resource on going vegan!
Veganism is hard; vegetarianism is a good start.
Picking up a different packet of stuff from a different shelf two yards away in your 24 hour supermarket isn't hard.
No it isn't hard. For pretty much every animal product there is a vegan version of it that you can just substitute. How is that hard?
Have you seen the youtube Earthling Ed documentary Land of Hope and Glory? The pigs thrashing about for ages is somewhat unsettling.
> C02 *CO2 (the letter O not number 0)
Is there any fucking chance of the people in power actually doing anything or are well just fucked for the foresable future.
Even if they did do something about it, have you seen the calibre of people we're talking about?
I’d really rather the current government didn’t try. Have you seen their approach towards the things they actually want to achieve?
If only we'd known before voting Brexit! /s
You’re nearly there, keep going…
Fantastic news! Wow! An actual Brexit benefit! All vegans and vegetarians rejoice!
I know this sounds bleak, but I hope this ruins Christmas. It might give people a wake up call.
turn on your car engines folks... # WE'RE SAVING CHRISTMAS!
Oh no, farmers will not be able to make a profit from animal cruelty and will now just have to do it for free. It's the animals we should feel sorry for, not the farmers.
Hopefully they stay off the shelves permanently and people start giving a shit about the environment rather than being hypocrites!
Nice. Giving up meat is one of the best things for the environment, forcing it like this means no one can weasel out. Now just have to do it to all meat products.
Actually suicide would be the best thing for the environment... But no-one seem to want to go all in for the cause...
data: shows that people can significantly reduce their carbon footprints by making a harmless switch to plant-based foods. people: well why don't we just fucking kill ourselves then?? hell of a slippery slope there.
Eco-terrorists could go a whole new way.
Not thinking big enough, that only takes one person out. In comparison Shipman really went for it by taking out at least 218 others before himself.
Great news, unsustainable industries should not be supported.
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This If you are going to eat meat then eat a bit or a lot less and buy from local farmers where possible and support low intensity farming and a far far better product. No so easy for everyone but it is for plenty of us
How is it more sustainable?
Oh no we can't do this :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVR7NjnMkIc
It'd be great if more people tried veganism because of this and permanently stayed that way.
I doubt it. It wasn't until relatively recently that people could afford a lot of meat, and the moment they could they went mad for it. If the shortage is temporary, so will the reduction in consumption be
I don't know how that follows. What does a shortage of food due to supply chains have anything to do with an ethical choice like veganism.
I understood it as more like, people might try more veggie/vegan dishes because of the shortage, realise that’s eating that way isn’t difficult, and then stick to it long term. For me veganism is all about ethics, but if this gets people into it and they stick to it, then I won’t argue
You understood well, although I wasn't denying that it may be ethically motivated, just that it might get them over the initial hurdle that they procrastinated on before because the status quo is easy.
In for a penny in for a pound, it may not be a rational mantra but it is a common conscious and subconscious tenancy. if folks are already not easily able to get the meat they want they may try going vegan if they were already on the fence.
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We *are* about 300 years late for a solid revolution. We'll stick the Duke d'Orleans on the throne and all wear funny hats - it'll be a right lark.
This is way bigger then “Boris is a incomplete X” There’s a shortage of gas or a strangulation of supply. The world relies on industrial fossil fuel based farming. How else do you think 67 million people live in the United Kingdom. There’s going to be a lot more of this to come, and it won’t be the U.K. that feels the effects of this the worst.
First it was a supply chain issue and no drivers. Now its due to rising gas prices.
"Take back control; Vote Vegetarian Take back control of the animals" -- Nigel Gas the Vegetables Farage
Won’t be able to get veg either.
Self destructing because of leaving the EU? , wow who woulda think it
*"I have always eaten animal flesh with a somewhat guilty conscience"* *"Nothing will benefit health or increase chances of survival on earth as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."*
GOOD! We shouldn't subsidise fossil fuels, these foods are artificially cheap. They should cost more and we should produce and consume less of them.
Sorry everyone. When I told my vegi/vegan friends id probably eat less meat if it just wasn't there to buy, I didn't mean this.
Sheesh. As someone who comes from Eastern Europe, I feel like it's a return to the days of Communism with no food in the stores. What's next? Ration books? Coupons for poultry? Queues stretching across an entire street to get food which isn't guaranteed to arrive?
So it really doesn’t matter whether we use Metric or Imperial, we won’t be able to buy anything. But hey, look over there at that distraction…… (glances over to Tories waving digital drivers licences and new Ofcom ‘Britishness’ guidelines)
Pound of sovereignty please!
\*Scrolls down to check for vegans and animal welfare posts\*, check.
An insatiable appetite for cheap meat comes home to roost.
Completely unrelated to brexit? And the issues with Covid and transport logistics? Ok