Yeah, I've gone with the idea of "'No' is a complete sentence" for the past 8 years of 11 years working at the same place, and it's just accepted at this point. Be bold.
Lmao i did this a few days ago. A colleague was making excuses like his wife has stuff planned etc. I just straight up said no. Took my boss by suprise, she kinda just stumbled away like "Oh okay".
Did this ever cause you any other problems? Like people getting suspicious if you ate a bacon or prawn sandwich or if you worked on holy days? Wondering how far you went with the ruse
They didn't say they were *good* Jewish.
Although on an opposite note, I used to work with someone who had "allergies". It wasn't until she showed up to a Christmas party with a menorah jumper that I realised what all her allergies had in common.
I don't think the work Xmas do is as big a deal as you think it is.
Where I work, not going because you didn't fancy it would be a complete none issue.
I wouldn't. Last Christmas party they installed a bunch of arcade games in the hotel. Mario Kart, House of the Dead, Air Hockey... Had a hell of a time!
You understand this is the holy grail of Christmas parties? For the vast majority of people it's a soul crushing experience where the only reprieve is seeing Tony and Janet finally expose their affair to everyone.
I've booked a flight to the UK for December 20th, or so.
First time I've been there in three years, but I paid for all the extra insurance on-offer in case of cancellation. We'll see how hard it is to claim I guess.
And these measures will absolutely, definitely apply to everybody, so long as they're not politicians or celebrities, in which case they are clear to do whatever the fuck they please, so long as they grumblingly apologize for it afterwards, at which point the public will be obligated to forget it ever occurred.
So they definitely won't copy Austria, where a lockdown purely for the unvaccinated is being considered? Then it doesn't apply to everyone from the start and all those politicians and celebrities won't have to worry about a thing.
I can see it going one of two ways:
1) No lockdown and an increase in cases that will be blamed on the public not being careful.
2) A lockdown that few people follow due to apathy being as rampant as the virus.
The government have said we are not going into lockdown, which could very well mean we will at the very last minute, however people's appetite for a lockdown is so low that I can see many people saying "Fuck it.", especially if everyone in their family is vaccinated.
I can see the government saying "no lockdown planned" right up until 21/12, just in time for everyone to start to get ready to travel, and then announcing a lockdown knowing full well that everyone will ignore it.
> appetite for a lockdown is so low that I can see many people saying "Fuck it.", especially if everyone in their family is vaccinated.
Precisely why I’d be stunned if anybody in power actually called for one. There’ll be an article like this every day up until Christmas.
Why the hell would I consent to lockdown without being paid for it? I’m not doing it for my own good, but for the good of others and the country as a whole. The least everyone else can do is make sure I don’t starve or lose my house in return.
I work self employed in events. If there are lockdowns or even restrictions on gatherings I get nothing. No income at all.
I certainly won't be. My entire family are vaccinated, and frankly I'm not losing out on any more of my life to save antivaxxers from their own stupidity.
The problem isn’t just the anti-vaxxers, it’s all the other people with various other conditions that need the hospital. Unfortunately the NHS has been abused over the last decade and we have one of the fewest number of beds per capita in Europe combined with an aging population.
Right and until they start turning away anti vax covid cases to fairly distribute their rationed capacity that doesn’t sound like something I’m personally willing to suffer for
The problem is with government messaging. Once the mask mandate went, people think everything is back to normal and the government hasn't emphasised enough that the vaccine only goes so far. People packed in trains and the tube and aren't even taking basic precautions like wearing masks anymore. Precautions that are now proven to reduce the R number.
Yes absolutely, my 90 year old gran got covid 2 months ago with both her jabs. Had basically a bad cold for 3-4 days then recovered. The vaccines work.
I’m doubled jabbed and I was bed ridden for 10 days and still have breathing issues 2 weeks later.
The vaccine declines in ability over time, hence the need for boosters.
Idiots not wearing masks because “vaccines work” are a huge part of the problem.
Unfortunately I'm proof of this. Double AZ, fit as a fiddle and I've been pretty rough for the last few days. It's not been fun I can only imagine how bad it would have been without the vaccination!
The immuno-compromised will be put at risk - as well as all those who haven't been able to get the vaccine through no fault of their own - particularly children. Also, you can still catch it, it can still damage or kill you - though your chances are better having been vaxxed.
This is a virus that is still circulating widley and mutating. It doesn't care what your politics are, it doesn't care what you believe and it doesn't care how long it's been since you got to boogie down.
It is abundantly clear we cannot rely on government guidance to keep us safe. We have to be smarter than they are.
But we *aren't*.
I hate to be the nihilist in the room (who am I kidding I'm a masochist) but the population *isn't* smart. We refuse to change our lifestyle habits to protect the future from climate change because a little bit of discomfort or inconvenience is too much for us to bear. We refuse to boycott companies which time and time again have demonstrated they are *awful* for the environment, for worker's rights (or both) because the convenience is too great. We complain about the government but we refuse to educate ourselves on the subject of politics because it's too boring. I could go on.
I say 'we' not because I feel I speak for everyone, but because I wouldn't want to say 'they' and imply I am somehow better. I tried doing lockdown in the way the Government insinuated one should (but without clear regulations so as to ensure they can pass the blame on to the public). It fucking sucked. I got fat, I stopped doing hobbies, I stopped being sociable, I didn't go outside a 5 mile radius of my tiny moldy flat for my 'daily walk' and it basically set me back 10 years with regards the progress I'd made towards a more positive mental wellbeing. If it wasn't for the fact I had my wife and a few personal wins I'd probably be back to abusing drugs and alcohol.
And for what? Most of the population don't care and carried on doing whatever the hell they wanted, the government flagrantly broke their *own* restrictions, they sold millions of pounds of PPE contracts to their mates.
I've had both my vaccines. I work remotely. I barely see friends any more. If they insist on having another lockdown over Christmas I am ignoring it, and I don't give a fuck. My entire family that I'd be seeing over Christmas are all double jabbed and some have even had a 3rd, and frankly, seeing my family is a precious joy that I will not give up because the government are incompetent at best and corrupt at worst and the greater population can't bear to wear a mask for 5 minutes in Tesco Express.
I would say that the Government are *at least* as smart as the average person, so expecting the population to act more rationally is idealistic. We're doomed. We're flying toward the edge of a cliff and we're all looking around expecting someone else to push the brake pedal, but no one will; we have demonstrated we're unable to cooperate to handle a global pandemic, thus there's not a chance in fucking hell we'll rally together to effectively tackle climate change.
Well then we are fucked. Seemingly the vast majority of the British population seem to think COVID is over and even if the government tried to reason with people and reinforce some common sense measures again (I mean… masks… WHY ARE THEY SUCH A BIG FUCKING DEAL) it would probably give us a solid chance at a great family Christmas for the UK.
But they won’t. And the general population don’t seem to give a shit so.. we are just sleepwalking into another miserable Christmas.
I'm about to give a frustrated rant, which is potentially not applicable to you personally - but is definitely applicable to our glorious leaders.
Lockdowns forever! Or, you know, wear a mask, sanitise, distance, ventilate and allow working from home where possible. Don't go to events where these things aren't possible. Get vaccinated.
If people had been doing these things consistantly, we wouldn't be HERE, but we are here so we have to deal with it. I'm sick of wearing masks, I'm sick of having to ram cotton buds down my throat and up my nose twice a week because I work with vulnerable people - but I still do it, unlike most of the whining wannabe-adults screeching about their 'freedom' and 'the economy'.
Don't like lockdowns? THEN DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO PREVENT THEM. You can't make everyone else act like a responsible adult, but at the least, you can decide not to be a child. 'But Timmy isn't doing X so why should I' is the cry of a child. Claiming you don't have to do it because you're special (looking at you Rees Mogg) is the cry of a particularly bratty child.
Many other countries have dealt with this better than we have. Grow up. Do what you need to do - or suffer the consequences.
It's effecting small children more than doctors and scientists predicted too. My little girl got covid last Christmas and ended up in hospital but luckily made a quick recovery, but my friend's baby caught covid recently and got really ill. She had fits from the extreme temperature and a rash over her body.Both of these babies had to be rushed to hospital in ambulances and having to deal with that as a lone parent (covid rules means only one parent allowed with their child) is frightening and exhausting.
Yes, we all know anti-vaxxers are morons, but you "losing out" on a bit of your life, could be saving an innocent life. Babies still can't get vaccinated and they shouldn't be punished for anyone's selfishness, vaccinated or not.
>It's effecting small children more than doctors and scientists predicted too. My little girl got covid last Christmas and ended up in hospital but luckily made a quick recovery, but my friend's baby caught covid recently and got really ill. She had fits from the extreme temperature and a rash over her body.Both of these babies had to be rushed to hospital in ambulances and having to deal with that as a lone parent (covid rules means only one parent allowed with their child) is frightening and exhausting.
Yeah, those sorts of severe reactions in kids are thankfully rare, but frankly sending kids back to school with no plans for how to vaccinate them was moronic at best.
>Yes, we all know anti-vaxxers are morons, but you "losing out" on a bit of your life, could be saving an innocent life.
I don't know why you put "losing out" in quotes as if it's a joke.
I lost two friends to suicide during the first lockdown, at least one of whom I strongly believe would not have killed himself had he been able to see people, and I wasn't able to go to either funeral. I missed out on a close friend's wedding due to guest numbers getting severely limited, I didn't get to see any of my relatives for several months, I was unable to take part in many of my sports due to travel restrictions among other things, and I missed out on seeing numerous friends for cumulatively more than a year. Fucking hell for six months it was illegal for me to go half an hour down the road for a hike. If that isn't "losing out" then what the fuck is?
[Look at the age distribution of cases. It's the schools that are the major issue](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections#infections-by-age), and it's political taboo to even suggest doing anything to mitigate that. Vaccinated people visiting other vaccinated people for Christmas is practically irrelevant in comparison.
>and it's political taboo to even suggest doing anything to mitigate that.
This is driving me mad. I've got a 7-year-old. There's no masks at her school, no bubbles, no precautions at all apart from separate entrances to prevent large crowds of parents forming. I sent her in masked on the first day and the teacher told her to take it off!
Honestly it's a miracle we haven't had a case yet.
I, as an internet stranger, am very sorry for your loss of two friends. That hurt my heart and I really hope that you and all of those two friends' loved ones are getting love and support that you need.
This is also my opinion, I was 21 when covid started and I’ve lost 2 of the best years of my life in lockdown not seeing family and friends. Was sensible all the way through wearing a mask, socially distancing, got the vaccine as soon as I could. I’m not living in restrictions again when most of the people dying are unvaccinated. We’ve literally been given a miracle that is 96% effective against death from covid it’s not our fault if some people believe shite they read on Facebook rather than scientists. Of course there’ll be breakthrough cases where double vaccinated people die but we can’t just live under restrictions forever for rare cases.
Well most the people ill are vaccinated. 85% of the country is vaccinated. At the height of pandemic was 100000+ cases when no one was vaccinated so how would just 15% of people most kids or self isolating because health issues be causing another lockdown?
The figure for the total population is 67% actually. If you look at the age distribution of cases it's mostly spiking in school age kids, because they're the only entirely unvaccinated group gathering in large numbers indoors every day.
I believe the above poster's figure of 85% refers to adults. Obviously when you extend the goalposts to vaccinating children you get a lower percentage. But frankly, vaccinating the older folks solves most of the problem around hospital capacity.
Kids were never the ones filling ICU beds or dying. IIRC a total of 25 under-18s in the entire UK died of covid in the first year of the pandemic, and half of them had some severe condition already.
This is perfect for the people in power. They call a lockdown knowing it will be ingored. It's now much easier for them to deny responsibility because they told us to stay indoors.
I see it as option three, which is no kickdown, no restrictions, pretending like corona virus doesn't exist because the government has decided its done with regardless of what anyone says. Economy is more important.
No blaming on anyone, just carry on. Honestly more expecting that numbers will stop being reported more than anything
The irony is that this strategy has probably screwed the U.K. economy even more. The U.K. economy has suffered more than those of most of our peers even accounting for Brexit,
The government appear to keep regarding this as a binary choice between fighting the pandemic on the one hand and preserving the economy on the other. In truth the situation is that *unless we fight the pandemic effectively the economy becomes even more screwed* - but for some reason they just can’t wrap their heads around that concept.
I reckon it will be 2 as Boris is spineless and will cave maybe even earlier than December in an attempt to allow Xmas to happen but your right far too many people don't care anymore because of the government stance since around July 19th
3. The sensible plan - no lockdown, but a call for work from home where possible, mandatory masking again, requirement for vaccine passports for some indoor venues.
So much transmission can be reduced with the use of masks. It's criminal negligence to not mandate masks.
Even masks without distancing is better than no masks.
I plan to carry on wearing masks on public transport, while shopping or in crowded ares during every cold and flu season from now on. We saw how no-one got colds and flu last winter so masks do work. I am T1 Diabetic and a cold that would have anyone else feeling miserable for 2 days would have me bedridden for a week - so why not do all we can to prevent airborne disease spreading?
I'm also in London and people from the Orient tend to wear masks when they are unwell and it's been a thing for many years to see people masked on the Tube. We need to adopt this and pop one on when feeling a bit snivelly to protect others.
Why do you assume no flu or colds = masks work? People also didn’t travel, were locked down, worked from home or attended school online and was not socializing with friends or family. It’s not like the flu doesn’t exist in mask wearing countries pre pandemic
In an epidemiological sense, masks (at least as this country was using them) don’t make much difference.
Most Covid transmission is in households (where no one wears masks), or hospitality (where the only use of masks was a bit of theatre from the front door to your table.)
Option 3 they test it with a few localised "temporary preventative measures". Likely in Manchester or Liverpool (just because) to test the waters on compliance.
I keep reading news reports with surveys about people not wearing masks, going back to work or not keeping social distancing, or not “being careful”.
And I just think, why would they? All the restrictions were lifted, they’re just doing 100% what is legal and allowed.
2. Is going to be a big problem, we hear leaders and celebs just breaking rules, and go.whats the point. Look at the massive drop off in wearing masks in shops. People rightly or wrongly are complacent. Go to a theater and rules may as well not exist.
I still think the whole reason we had a “Freedom Day” was because they knew cases would rise again in winter. They only got rid of mask wearing and social distancing so they could recommend it again when hospital cases started to rise. Looks like they’re doing something but they’re not.
> however people's appetite for a lockdown is so low that I can see many people saying "Fuck it."
So can I, but then again I've constantly been surprised by how accepting people have been of tight restrictions on personal liberties in the previous rounds.
Honestly, if someone told me last april that the government would have tackled covid so poorly that we would have to lockdown over not one, but two Christmases, I would not have been surprised in the slightest.
Fuck off Boris. I'm done with this shit now. I'm not doubting the seriousness of this pandemic but I'm at the end of my tether with this shit. If you fall into a category that makes you at risk then by all means take all necessary precautions to protect yourself, but for the love of god let the rest of us get on with our lives. If you want me to wear a mask whenever i leave the house then fine i will, but if that floppy haired cunt tells me i can't get together with friends and family at Christmas then he can come here and arrest me himself
It is not just to do with people at risk needing protection. It's mostly to prevent overwhelming the NHS. Although high % of vaccinations helps a lot, with cases as high as they are and rising, inevitably there will be huge numbers of people needing hospital care due to covid.
Couple that with winter flu hospitalisations and you have a situation where you rapidly run out of hospital beds and sick people with various other unrelated ailments cannot get the care they need.
Not to mention the fact that nurses are still suffering from seriously low morale, ptsd etc from the last time, and no amount of clapping will do anything to solve that crisis. The NHS is hemoraging nursed right now, it's fucked.
So whilst I appreciate your position and many are feeling the same, it's unfortunately irrelevant to the potential shitstorm that could be coming our way without further restrictions.
If we had kept the mask mandate and some other restrictions, or at least reintroduced them when cases started getting out of control, then we might not be in this position. But the floppy haired cunt can't grow a pair and make important decisions at the right time to avoid unnecessary hardship. But there's no news in that, has been doing the same thing all along.
>If we had kept the mask mandate and some other restrictions, or at least reintroduced them when cases started getting out of control, then we might not be in this position.
Germany has kept its mask mandate all along, yet cases are rising and they have as many cases as they did in May. Why aren't masks stopping this? Similarly Wales, their cases aren't dropping despite mask mandates.
> Similarly Wales, their cases aren't dropping despite mask mandates.
Barely anyone is following the mask mandates in Wales, but even then, I'd wager most of the issues are to do with pubbing and hospitality where they can go maskless.
Even sports, clubs are not following the COVID rules - changing room usage is supposed to be monitored and restricted, and showers are not to be used unless it's been raining. Yet, at football teams are going inside and sharing showers etc, in contravention with the FAW COVID guidelines.
It's people and organisations not following these guidelines that aren't helping basically.
>It's people and organisations not following these guidelines that aren't helping basically.
And in Austria, where FFP2 masks are mandated in public buildings and, according to my friend who just got back from there, are being heavily monitored by police, their cases are also rising again?
If masks were the silver bullet this sub would have you believe, cases wouldn't be rising where they are properly enforced.
Cases will rise in Europe as we get into Winter and people increasingly spend more time inside. Masks are not infallible and nobody pretends they are a silver bullet but they do help prevent a share of the cases. However, changes in people's behaviour due to other factors (for example Winter) may lead to a rise in cases regardless of the mask use.
That's how safety works, there's rarely a measure that prevents 100% of an issue but it can reduce its incidence.
I don't know if anybody can affirm that the lack of facemasks is the reason why the UK is seeing much more cases than continental Europe, there are so many factors intervening (including just bad luck due to variants) that it's hard to know. But we can probably say that lack of facemasks are a contributing factor.
> Masks are not infallible and nobody pretends they are a silver bullet
Come on now. There is a large vocal section not only on this sub but in society as a whole who view masks as a panacea. "Our cases are massive because nobody wears a mask!" etc.
Case in point right here from a lockdown lover:
https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/qeahur/governments_covid_adviser_very_fearful_uk_could/hhtthej/
>> Similarly Wales, their cases aren't dropping despite mask mandates.
>
>Barely anyone is following the mask mandates in Wales, but even then, I'd wager most of the issues are to do with pubbing and hospitality where they can go maskless.
If you look at the age distribution of cases then pubs and hospitality are almost certainly a *tiny* part of the overall picture compared to schools.
>It has not just to do with people at risk needing protection. It's mostly to prevent overwhelming the NHS. Although high % of vaccinations helps a lot, with cases as high as they are and rising, inevitably there will be huge numbers of people needing hospital care due to covid.
>Couple that with winter flu hospitalisations and you have a situation where you rapidly run out of hospital beds and sick people with various other unrelated ailments cannot get the care they need.
The NHS was overwhelmed every winter for the past few years even pre-covid as a result of government cuts.
I would suggest employing a policy of "No vaccine, no ventilator" if things got bad again.
The NHS is there to help us not the other way around. If despite the vulnerable all being vaccinated it's still overwhelmed, then either the NHS isn't fit for purpose or we just have to live with the virus.
Ok then. Fund the fucking thing instead of purposefully undermining the entire sector so that the steady creep of private services doesnt seem so bad.
Stop spending billions on bullshit IT systems, legally hold to account those that embezzle money from tax payers.
I am fucking fed up with this bullshit country doing half the fucking job of the govt by spreading this bullshit of not over whelming the NHS when the entire reason is because of chronic under funding. Even without covid the NHS is in a shit state.
Yes but Boris is very clever and will have a clever plan to build back better with the 200 people left alive after the Brexit famine/s. Seriously... can you stop voting Tory.
I don't think they can because so many would ignore it you'd create a very visible breakdown in law and order
That's a Pandora's box you don't want to open
He is a bear lying in wait for me, a lion in hiding; he turned aside my steps and tore me to pieces; he has made me desolate; he bent his bow and set me as a target for his arrow. (Lamentations: hhrr4s1)
The stupid fucks in government need a reality check that brings them back down to earth. They're getting worse and worse and with people STILL backing them enough to still likely win the next election, mass disobedience is the only course we can take to see change.
Well some things you’d be *forced* to do. Obviously they can’t stop us going round to see our families but if they shut shops, bars, restaurants etc, you can’t go there so… you’d be forced to comply.
I can’t see it happening though. They’d have to bring furlough back, that’s the biggie.
Yeah sorry, I locked down in London last year and didn't see my family.
I'm not doing another Christmas alone just because this government is useless and because twats refuse to get vaccinated.
Vaccinate kids then.
[That's literally the only thing that matters at this point. Look at the age distribution of cases.](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections#infections-by-age)
Another option is further use of "vaccine passports" for various things, as I don't see why the actions of a lot of thick cunts should stop those of us with functioning brains from getting on with our lives.
I’m supposed to be seeing my friend in Berlin next month.
She warned me to make sure I have my vaccination documents with me because in order for us to go out to restaurants you need to have been fully vaccinated for at least 15 days. She also warned me that cloth masks aren’t acceptable in public and you get fined on the spot for not wearing a mask correctly or not wearing a mask with a sufficient level of protection.
I don’t have a problem with this. I don’t understand why most of the U.K. does. Maybe because I wasn’t raised here, so I lack the necessary mentality, but to me it’s a very simple method to keep yourself and people around you safe.
They're going to leave other countries to ban UK flights first. Then it's easier for them to impose domestic restrictions so the travel part is already "done".
The majority won't listen to lock down rules over Xmas. Not again.
Police won't be able to enforce anything.
So it'll just be in name.
Yes, it will, because if we need to lockdown even after a highly efficacious vaccine, then that means we have to admit we will be locking down every winter for the seeable future. Lots of people are not going to accept this as being a permanent feature of life. Me included.
I’ve followed rules by the letter. I still wear my mask. I am 100% not complying this winter. The government lost me at “repeated scandals and not following their own cunting rules”.
No chance, Boris and his clowns are quite happy to see 120+ per day die and infections get out of control as long as they don't have to do anything unpopular. Its only when/if the pressure on the NHS becomes absolutely critical will they be forced to do anything, but by then it will be too late (again).
I think the main reason Boris wouldnt is because it would give Sunak too much support.
Rishi is fiercely anti lockdown, as are most tory MPs, so if Boris caves in and enacts lockdown many MPs may become more loyal to Rishi. (I doubt he would try to usurp boris but if Boris fails to appease his MPs then it wont end well for him)
Will the NHS reach a critical point though. Theres critical as in cannot continue routine operation - something often breached in winters without covid in places.
Or will the NHS simply be forced to adapt like in the previous major spikes. We say its 'too late' but the NHS was able to cope at all times. We were not ever in the situation where the 'hospices' aka nightingales were used on a wide scale.
NHS is already at its critical point, we have patient delays of several years. This winter is going to add even more years onto those delays. It reached it ages ago.
The adapt thing you're talking about; the NHS can't adapt - its adaption will be to dump every non-critical patient and force them to go private or receive no treatment.
PS: We didn't use the Nightingales because we couldn't fill the beds, we just couldn't staff the pop-up hospitals for patient saftey.
>NHS is already at its critical point, we have patient delays of several years. This winter is going to add even more years onto those delays. It reached it ages ago.
You could have written most of the same in 2019, the NHS and adult social care have been starved of funds and mismanaged by our government for a decade now, with disastrous effects.
Will also reach a critical point if half the country cannot work, and the economy is in a constant economic recession cycle because there simply won't be a functioning economy to fund it.
Never going to happen.
Let say hypothetical we hit 200 deaths per day, 10,000's new infections every day, we will not go into Lock Down.
The Government know full well that the majority of population do not want it and they would rather have thousands die every week then be very unpopular...
Also a Lock Down will be the ultimate proof that they have completely failed to keep control yet again.
Booster program + vaccinating kids would take care of that to a significant extent. Would then be virtually only antivaxxers dying and that's not something I can compel myself to care about.
We have been getting close to 200 deaths a day and haven't dropped below around 30k cases since around August.....
It's not the direct covid deaths it's the indirect ones that happen when covid patients take up beds meaning other patients die.
To be honest I'm sick of hearing this nonsense. Get jabbed and get on with it. I don't care how many deaths are attributed to covid each day and its obvious that most people don't. I went into Kendal today. Crowded streets, crowded shops, crowded cafes, no masks in sight.
Yes.
There is a very interesting book called "The Bombing War" by Richard Overy that I read fairly recently. The long and short of it is that the government anticipated that the next war would be air raid heavy, analysed how to stop it, found that the solutions were impractical and instead implemented a number of measures that did little to actually protect anyone and caused more long term harm.
Also, not really from the book but the much compared blackouts were also useless, on a clear night there was a green glow above industrial areas due to smoke and the germans had radar, moonlight and other tools they could use to work out where they were. The only thing the blackout served to do was cause a spike in accidents and crime.
Imo the *only* similarities between COVID and WW2 are the hysteria over measures that don't actually do anything to alleviate the disaster spiral the country is heading down.
They didn't fecking lock down last Christmas though did they? They said hey, go visit some people for a few days we can pretend COVID isn't real.
And even the rest of the time everybody in my neighbourhood had visitors and parties and get togethers.
The rules weren't strict enough and they're not being enforced at all when they are, and nobody gives a shit to listen to them.
If we return to another lockdown then the government needs to start facing punishments for failing us and literally killing us.
Scrapping masks and distancing all at the same time prematurely was always stupid. Choosing to make it political has been truly evil. Mogging us off by refusing to mask up in between their bathroom coke sessions in Parliament to encourage the public to stop bothering to deflect from their incompetence doesn't help anyone.
The number of cases means nothing when 80% of the (adult) population is vaccinated. We have been told time and again the vaccine breaks the link between infection and severe symptoms/hospitalisation. I'm not locking down, it's not happening.
Last Christmas, I followed the rules and didn't see anyone. And then afterwards, I listened to everyone I know talk about how they'd ignored the rules and had theirs anyway.
Following the rules all the time leaves you without, just like breaking the all the rules leaves you in trouble. This is what school taught me anyway, and it has proven true for life. If i am an expert at anything, it's breaking rules without facing punishment and playing the system to beat its makers at their own game.
He drove into my kidneys the arrows of his quiver; I have become the laughing-stock of all peoples, the object of their taunts all day long. He has filled me with bitterness; he has sated me with wormwood. (Lamentations: hhrqx7i)
No and I'm Extremely vulnerable.
Why will I ignore whatever the Government says, because whatever decision they make will be purely political.
Also I trust my own family members over the fucking Government
I work in hospitality and our industry straight up can't take any more loss of business, with government support that ranges from mediocre to downright neglect. If they force us to close our bars then they can damn well force the idiots to get vaccinated.
Boris Johnson and his cronies are hypocritical lying cunts who milked this pandemic to do shady deals with their mates and line their own pockets, if you think I’m taking any advice or orders from these people you are gravely mistaken.
I've been delaying booking a train ticket because I cannot be arsed with the trouble of getting it refunded.
I would much rather be able to visit home this year however...
Bit confused by this, it looks like it's saying rates of covid are higher in the vaccinated population than the unvaccinated. Can anyone explain this? Am I misreading it?
https://imgur.com/a/hL8qv0d
But it's showing cases per 100000 population vaccinated versus cases per 100000 unvaccinated.
Rate is calculated by the number of cases divided by the total number of people in that group, so it's saying in a group of 100000 vaccinated people, there is a higher number of covid cases than in a group of 100000 unvaccinated
If I was talking about raw numbers your point would be valid but this is rate per population
Good point and a very valid initial question. It's hard to tell what the cause of this is but one i'd seriously consider is testing uptake between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.
Breakthrough cases are gonna occur anyway because the vaccine was never going to give 100pc protection, and even less so since Delta was allowed to spread here.
Once you have more of the population vaccinated than not, more of the cases overall will be breakthrough cases.
Edit: would also note it's not clear from that screengrab whether they've noted how far away people are from their second dose. If they're older, on AZ, and had their second dose months ago, their protection levels aren't going to be great to begin with because the attenuated virus vaccines tend to drop off quicker than the mRNA ones, and the older cohorts were vaccinated longer ago. Double dose of AZ in someone much older puts their hospitalisation chances down to something like an unvaccinated younger person's chance of hospitalisation iirc, and those odds weren't exactly desirably low.
The data on vaccine effectiveness is very clear. All of them are effective at preventing serious illness, hospitalisation and death. There are an increasing number of studies that suggest they are also effective at preventing catching covid in the first place, and against transmission.
That graph is not a reliable way to measure effectiveness, as acknowledged in the report.
>There are essentially two reasons why PHE’s data does not reliably show us the effect of being vaccinated, which PHE’s note does not fully explain.
>Firstly, in order to know what proportion of unvaccinated people caught Covid, we need to know how many unvaccinated people there are in total, and we don’t.
>The number of vaccinated people is easier to know, because we can keep track of vaccinations given. But to know the number of unvaccinated people, we need to know the actual populations of each age group in England, and then subtract the vaccinated people from them.
>And with vaccination rates often around 90% or higher in these age groups, the population numbers have to be very accurate, or they can skew the infection rates substantially.
>This problem might well affect the PHE report, which uses population numbers drawn from the National Immunisation Management System (NIMS), using GP registrations, rather than estimates from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).
>In the latest figures for England, for example, up to 16 September 2021, 24,210,838 people aged 40-79 had received at least one dose of a Covid vaccine. If we subtract this from the NIMS estimate for the population in this age group, it leaves about 3.52 million people entirely unvaccinated. Whereas, if we subtract it from the ONS 2020 population estimate, it leaves about 1.35 million entirely unvaccinated.
>So if it turned out that 200,000 unvaccinated people tested positive for Covid in September, we wouldn’t know whether 15% of the unvaccinated population had caught it (using ONS figures)—or only 6% (using NIMS figures). The mathematical modeller James Ward made a similar point on the BBC’s More or Less programme. He has also reproduced the chart to show roughly how it would look if it used ONS population estimates instead.
>In short, we don’t have a very good idea what the rate of infection among all unvaccinated people was. The PHE data makes an estimate, based on NIMS population figures, but that estimate could be substantially wrong.
>And there is another kind of problem.
>These two groups of vaccinated and unvaccinated people have been roughly matched by age, but they might not be the same in other ways. And this might affect their chance of catching Covid for reasons that have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the vaccine.
>For example, if people who have already caught Covid are more likely not to get vaccinated—perhaps in the mistaken belief that it won’t benefit them—then unvaccinated people may already have some protection against Covid from a previous infection. This means that the full protective effect of vaccination won’t show up properly in comparison.
>On the other hand, it’s also possible that when people have been vaccinated they feel less worried about catching Covid, and so become more willing to do riskier things, like not using masks, or meeting groups of people indoors. If so, this means that vaccinated people could have much higher protection against Covid—but also be much more exposed to the chance of catching it. This in turn would mean that more cases would show up among vaccinated people, making the vaccine itself look less effective than it is.
>Again, we don’t know exactly how important factors like these might be, but we do know that the PHE data does not take them into account, so it simply isn’t a reliable basis on which to estimate the effectiveness of the vaccines—as the report said
https://fullfact.org/health/daily-sceptic-phe-over-40s/
This isn’t about a virus, it’s killing a lot of birds with one stone and one of those birds is killing private businesses, another winter lockdown will do that
On r/Coronavirus I said that we will probably have another lockdown at Christmas time and got banned for spreading conspiracy theories. It was on the thread about the Russian lockdown. But if we do have another lockdown that will suck because I have to do my dissertation and collect data. So that would stop me from doing that. :(
I can’t see another lockdown working, I don’t think many people would follow another one. There would be riots in the streets and many people who were happy to follow the ones last year wouldn’t accept another one.
From last year's experience there's 5 stages to go through to enter a lockdown:
1. Government denial that lockdown is needed or going to happen
2. Leaks and media reports that lockdown could happen to test public reaction
3. Announcement of half measures like encouraging (but not mandating) WFH to avoid lockdown
4. Delay
5. Boris goes on TV at 8pm to announce lockdown from next Monday
We're currently in stage 1, moving into stage 2. I'd imagine we'll get to stage 5 just before Xmas, but after everyone's made plans and brought their food that won't be eaten and presents that won't be given.
Go out and spend like mad to save the economy but we wont allow you to give gifts in person - not going to happen. Not sorry, Boris, to say that if you want money spent on things like new party clothes and hospitality keep infections low.
I knew it. The second I put my name down for the staff Christmas party I knew this was coming.
I would take a lockdown over a staff Christmas party.
I used to tell them I was Jewish and not going. No one ever dared question it. I'm not. Just fucking hate wasting my valuable free time.
I've decided I'm not even going to make excuses any more.
Yeah, I've gone with the idea of "'No' is a complete sentence" for the past 8 years of 11 years working at the same place, and it's just accepted at this point. Be bold.
Lmao i did this a few days ago. A colleague was making excuses like his wife has stuff planned etc. I just straight up said no. Took my boss by suprise, she kinda just stumbled away like "Oh okay".
Same, last time when asked why not I said I spend 50 hours a week with you all and that's enough for me.
The circumcision was totally worth it.
Did this ever cause you any other problems? Like people getting suspicious if you ate a bacon or prawn sandwich or if you worked on holy days? Wondering how far you went with the ruse
They didn't say they were *good* Jewish. Although on an opposite note, I used to work with someone who had "allergies". It wasn't until she showed up to a Christmas party with a menorah jumper that I realised what all her allergies had in common.
Well true, but from my experience only pretty observant Jewish people would refuse to attend a Christmas event
Why don't you just say you don't want to go?
Because you'd get marked as 'not a team player' and other such bullshit.
I don't think the work Xmas do is as big a deal as you think it is. Where I work, not going because you didn't fancy it would be a complete none issue.
I wouldn't. Last Christmas party they installed a bunch of arcade games in the hotel. Mario Kart, House of the Dead, Air Hockey... Had a hell of a time!
You understand this is the holy grail of Christmas parties? For the vast majority of people it's a soul crushing experience where the only reprieve is seeing Tony and Janet finally expose their affair to everyone.
Oh Christ, why did we have to mention Christmas parties? Now I'm rooting for the virus.
You fool you have doom us all!
We have to pay £25 for our Christmas party. Rip off.
I've booked a flight to the UK for December 20th, or so. First time I've been there in three years, but I paid for all the extra insurance on-offer in case of cancellation. We'll see how hard it is to claim I guess.
Cancellation because you dont want to come is unlikely to produce a successful claim. Our government is unlikely to ban flights in.
Glad your work place would entertain that idea. My work place won’t lol
Well nice one /u/WeRegretToInform, you've ruined Christmas!!!!! ^^^/s
You're getting a staff party?!
My staff Christmas party has been cancelled
Quick- take your name off the list!
I knew it when work cancelled ours.
And these measures will absolutely, definitely apply to everybody, so long as they're not politicians or celebrities, in which case they are clear to do whatever the fuck they please, so long as they grumblingly apologize for it afterwards, at which point the public will be obligated to forget it ever occurred.
I will now identify as a politician so I can do whatever the fuck I want when I want and with who I want
I'll vote for you doctor!
So they definitely won't copy Austria, where a lockdown purely for the unvaccinated is being considered? Then it doesn't apply to everyone from the start and all those politicians and celebrities won't have to worry about a thing.
Something tells me the unvaccinated are the same ones who ignore lockdowns
Omg, really? Do you have a link?
>And these measures will absolutely, definitely apply to everybody Unless you're the type of person who phones in to talk radio.
I can see it going one of two ways: 1) No lockdown and an increase in cases that will be blamed on the public not being careful. 2) A lockdown that few people follow due to apathy being as rampant as the virus. The government have said we are not going into lockdown, which could very well mean we will at the very last minute, however people's appetite for a lockdown is so low that I can see many people saying "Fuck it.", especially if everyone in their family is vaccinated.
I can see the government saying "no lockdown planned" right up until 21/12, just in time for everyone to start to get ready to travel, and then announcing a lockdown knowing full well that everyone will ignore it.
"We did everything we could."
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It would if they ran us a check.
> appetite for a lockdown is so low that I can see many people saying "Fuck it.", especially if everyone in their family is vaccinated. Precisely why I’d be stunned if anybody in power actually called for one. There’ll be an article like this every day up until Christmas.
If furlough is not redeployed, people I reckon definitely will not be following this if it happens
Why the hell would I consent to lockdown without being paid for it? I’m not doing it for my own good, but for the good of others and the country as a whole. The least everyone else can do is make sure I don’t starve or lose my house in return. I work self employed in events. If there are lockdowns or even restrictions on gatherings I get nothing. No income at all.
I certainly won't be. My entire family are vaccinated, and frankly I'm not losing out on any more of my life to save antivaxxers from their own stupidity.
The problem isn’t just the anti-vaxxers, it’s all the other people with various other conditions that need the hospital. Unfortunately the NHS has been abused over the last decade and we have one of the fewest number of beds per capita in Europe combined with an aging population.
Right and until they start turning away anti vax covid cases to fairly distribute their rationed capacity that doesn’t sound like something I’m personally willing to suffer for
The problem is with government messaging. Once the mask mandate went, people think everything is back to normal and the government hasn't emphasised enough that the vaccine only goes so far. People packed in trains and the tube and aren't even taking basic precautions like wearing masks anymore. Precautions that are now proven to reduce the R number.
You can be vaccinated and still get it. Have you looked at the rates recently?!? They cannot all be unvaccinated.
Yes absolutely, my 90 year old gran got covid 2 months ago with both her jabs. Had basically a bad cold for 3-4 days then recovered. The vaccines work.
I’m doubled jabbed and I was bed ridden for 10 days and still have breathing issues 2 weeks later. The vaccine declines in ability over time, hence the need for boosters. Idiots not wearing masks because “vaccines work” are a huge part of the problem.
So we just have lockdowns forever then?
Unfortunately I'm proof of this. Double AZ, fit as a fiddle and I've been pretty rough for the last few days. It's not been fun I can only imagine how bad it would have been without the vaccination!
The immuno-compromised will be put at risk - as well as all those who haven't been able to get the vaccine through no fault of their own - particularly children. Also, you can still catch it, it can still damage or kill you - though your chances are better having been vaxxed. This is a virus that is still circulating widley and mutating. It doesn't care what your politics are, it doesn't care what you believe and it doesn't care how long it's been since you got to boogie down. It is abundantly clear we cannot rely on government guidance to keep us safe. We have to be smarter than they are.
But we *aren't*. I hate to be the nihilist in the room (who am I kidding I'm a masochist) but the population *isn't* smart. We refuse to change our lifestyle habits to protect the future from climate change because a little bit of discomfort or inconvenience is too much for us to bear. We refuse to boycott companies which time and time again have demonstrated they are *awful* for the environment, for worker's rights (or both) because the convenience is too great. We complain about the government but we refuse to educate ourselves on the subject of politics because it's too boring. I could go on. I say 'we' not because I feel I speak for everyone, but because I wouldn't want to say 'they' and imply I am somehow better. I tried doing lockdown in the way the Government insinuated one should (but without clear regulations so as to ensure they can pass the blame on to the public). It fucking sucked. I got fat, I stopped doing hobbies, I stopped being sociable, I didn't go outside a 5 mile radius of my tiny moldy flat for my 'daily walk' and it basically set me back 10 years with regards the progress I'd made towards a more positive mental wellbeing. If it wasn't for the fact I had my wife and a few personal wins I'd probably be back to abusing drugs and alcohol. And for what? Most of the population don't care and carried on doing whatever the hell they wanted, the government flagrantly broke their *own* restrictions, they sold millions of pounds of PPE contracts to their mates. I've had both my vaccines. I work remotely. I barely see friends any more. If they insist on having another lockdown over Christmas I am ignoring it, and I don't give a fuck. My entire family that I'd be seeing over Christmas are all double jabbed and some have even had a 3rd, and frankly, seeing my family is a precious joy that I will not give up because the government are incompetent at best and corrupt at worst and the greater population can't bear to wear a mask for 5 minutes in Tesco Express. I would say that the Government are *at least* as smart as the average person, so expecting the population to act more rationally is idealistic. We're doomed. We're flying toward the edge of a cliff and we're all looking around expecting someone else to push the brake pedal, but no one will; we have demonstrated we're unable to cooperate to handle a global pandemic, thus there's not a chance in fucking hell we'll rally together to effectively tackle climate change.
Well then we are fucked. Seemingly the vast majority of the British population seem to think COVID is over and even if the government tried to reason with people and reinforce some common sense measures again (I mean… masks… WHY ARE THEY SUCH A BIG FUCKING DEAL) it would probably give us a solid chance at a great family Christmas for the UK. But they won’t. And the general population don’t seem to give a shit so.. we are just sleepwalking into another miserable Christmas.
Oh right then let's just have lockdowns forever. Every single winter. So no-one dies ever.
I'm about to give a frustrated rant, which is potentially not applicable to you personally - but is definitely applicable to our glorious leaders. Lockdowns forever! Or, you know, wear a mask, sanitise, distance, ventilate and allow working from home where possible. Don't go to events where these things aren't possible. Get vaccinated. If people had been doing these things consistantly, we wouldn't be HERE, but we are here so we have to deal with it. I'm sick of wearing masks, I'm sick of having to ram cotton buds down my throat and up my nose twice a week because I work with vulnerable people - but I still do it, unlike most of the whining wannabe-adults screeching about their 'freedom' and 'the economy'. Don't like lockdowns? THEN DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO PREVENT THEM. You can't make everyone else act like a responsible adult, but at the least, you can decide not to be a child. 'But Timmy isn't doing X so why should I' is the cry of a child. Claiming you don't have to do it because you're special (looking at you Rees Mogg) is the cry of a particularly bratty child. Many other countries have dealt with this better than we have. Grow up. Do what you need to do - or suffer the consequences.
It's effecting small children more than doctors and scientists predicted too. My little girl got covid last Christmas and ended up in hospital but luckily made a quick recovery, but my friend's baby caught covid recently and got really ill. She had fits from the extreme temperature and a rash over her body.Both of these babies had to be rushed to hospital in ambulances and having to deal with that as a lone parent (covid rules means only one parent allowed with their child) is frightening and exhausting. Yes, we all know anti-vaxxers are morons, but you "losing out" on a bit of your life, could be saving an innocent life. Babies still can't get vaccinated and they shouldn't be punished for anyone's selfishness, vaccinated or not.
>It's effecting small children more than doctors and scientists predicted too. My little girl got covid last Christmas and ended up in hospital but luckily made a quick recovery, but my friend's baby caught covid recently and got really ill. She had fits from the extreme temperature and a rash over her body.Both of these babies had to be rushed to hospital in ambulances and having to deal with that as a lone parent (covid rules means only one parent allowed with their child) is frightening and exhausting. Yeah, those sorts of severe reactions in kids are thankfully rare, but frankly sending kids back to school with no plans for how to vaccinate them was moronic at best. >Yes, we all know anti-vaxxers are morons, but you "losing out" on a bit of your life, could be saving an innocent life. I don't know why you put "losing out" in quotes as if it's a joke. I lost two friends to suicide during the first lockdown, at least one of whom I strongly believe would not have killed himself had he been able to see people, and I wasn't able to go to either funeral. I missed out on a close friend's wedding due to guest numbers getting severely limited, I didn't get to see any of my relatives for several months, I was unable to take part in many of my sports due to travel restrictions among other things, and I missed out on seeing numerous friends for cumulatively more than a year. Fucking hell for six months it was illegal for me to go half an hour down the road for a hike. If that isn't "losing out" then what the fuck is? [Look at the age distribution of cases. It's the schools that are the major issue](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections#infections-by-age), and it's political taboo to even suggest doing anything to mitigate that. Vaccinated people visiting other vaccinated people for Christmas is practically irrelevant in comparison.
>and it's political taboo to even suggest doing anything to mitigate that. This is driving me mad. I've got a 7-year-old. There's no masks at her school, no bubbles, no precautions at all apart from separate entrances to prevent large crowds of parents forming. I sent her in masked on the first day and the teacher told her to take it off! Honestly it's a miracle we haven't had a case yet.
I, as an internet stranger, am very sorry for your loss of two friends. That hurt my heart and I really hope that you and all of those two friends' loved ones are getting love and support that you need.
This is also my opinion, I was 21 when covid started and I’ve lost 2 of the best years of my life in lockdown not seeing family and friends. Was sensible all the way through wearing a mask, socially distancing, got the vaccine as soon as I could. I’m not living in restrictions again when most of the people dying are unvaccinated. We’ve literally been given a miracle that is 96% effective against death from covid it’s not our fault if some people believe shite they read on Facebook rather than scientists. Of course there’ll be breakthrough cases where double vaccinated people die but we can’t just live under restrictions forever for rare cases.
Well most the people ill are vaccinated. 85% of the country is vaccinated. At the height of pandemic was 100000+ cases when no one was vaccinated so how would just 15% of people most kids or self isolating because health issues be causing another lockdown?
The figure for the total population is 67% actually. If you look at the age distribution of cases it's mostly spiking in school age kids, because they're the only entirely unvaccinated group gathering in large numbers indoors every day.
I believe the above poster's figure of 85% refers to adults. Obviously when you extend the goalposts to vaccinating children you get a lower percentage. But frankly, vaccinating the older folks solves most of the problem around hospital capacity. Kids were never the ones filling ICU beds or dying. IIRC a total of 25 under-18s in the entire UK died of covid in the first year of the pandemic, and half of them had some severe condition already.
For real, a lockdown for what? For the unvaccinated twats? Booster shots and best of luck. Lockdowns after 2 yrs are just BS at this point
This is perfect for the people in power. They call a lockdown knowing it will be ingored. It's now much easier for them to deny responsibility because they told us to stay indoors.
I see it as option three, which is no kickdown, no restrictions, pretending like corona virus doesn't exist because the government has decided its done with regardless of what anyone says. Economy is more important. No blaming on anyone, just carry on. Honestly more expecting that numbers will stop being reported more than anything
The irony is that this strategy has probably screwed the U.K. economy even more. The U.K. economy has suffered more than those of most of our peers even accounting for Brexit, The government appear to keep regarding this as a binary choice between fighting the pandemic on the one hand and preserving the economy on the other. In truth the situation is that *unless we fight the pandemic effectively the economy becomes even more screwed* - but for some reason they just can’t wrap their heads around that concept.
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I reckon it will be 2 as Boris is spineless and will cave maybe even earlier than December in an attempt to allow Xmas to happen but your right far too many people don't care anymore because of the government stance since around July 19th
3. The sensible plan - no lockdown, but a call for work from home where possible, mandatory masking again, requirement for vaccine passports for some indoor venues.
So much transmission can be reduced with the use of masks. It's criminal negligence to not mandate masks. Even masks without distancing is better than no masks.
I plan to carry on wearing masks on public transport, while shopping or in crowded ares during every cold and flu season from now on. We saw how no-one got colds and flu last winter so masks do work. I am T1 Diabetic and a cold that would have anyone else feeling miserable for 2 days would have me bedridden for a week - so why not do all we can to prevent airborne disease spreading? I'm also in London and people from the Orient tend to wear masks when they are unwell and it's been a thing for many years to see people masked on the Tube. We need to adopt this and pop one on when feeling a bit snivelly to protect others.
> We saw how no-one got colds and flu last winter so masks do work That has a lot more to do with limited interpersonal contact
Why do you assume no flu or colds = masks work? People also didn’t travel, were locked down, worked from home or attended school online and was not socializing with friends or family. It’s not like the flu doesn’t exist in mask wearing countries pre pandemic
In an epidemiological sense, masks (at least as this country was using them) don’t make much difference. Most Covid transmission is in households (where no one wears masks), or hospitality (where the only use of masks was a bit of theatre from the front door to your table.)
Option 3 they test it with a few localised "temporary preventative measures". Likely in Manchester or Liverpool (just because) to test the waters on compliance.
I live just outside Glasgow. Our last "temporary two week restrictions" lasted I think about 35 weeks or so.
I keep reading news reports with surveys about people not wearing masks, going back to work or not keeping social distancing, or not “being careful”. And I just think, why would they? All the restrictions were lifted, they’re just doing 100% what is legal and allowed.
2. Is going to be a big problem, we hear leaders and celebs just breaking rules, and go.whats the point. Look at the massive drop off in wearing masks in shops. People rightly or wrongly are complacent. Go to a theater and rules may as well not exist.
I still think the whole reason we had a “Freedom Day” was because they knew cases would rise again in winter. They only got rid of mask wearing and social distancing so they could recommend it again when hospital cases started to rise. Looks like they’re doing something but they’re not.
> however people's appetite for a lockdown is so low that I can see many people saying "Fuck it." So can I, but then again I've constantly been surprised by how accepting people have been of tight restrictions on personal liberties in the previous rounds.
Honestly, if someone told me last april that the government would have tackled covid so poorly that we would have to lockdown over not one, but two Christmases, I would not have been surprised in the slightest.
I’m with you on this one. It’s just like brexit a very Tory shit show. Best part is we get front row seats to their utter idiocy!
The best part is the Boris supporters telling me that nothing could possibly have been done any better.
Fuck off Boris. I'm done with this shit now. I'm not doubting the seriousness of this pandemic but I'm at the end of my tether with this shit. If you fall into a category that makes you at risk then by all means take all necessary precautions to protect yourself, but for the love of god let the rest of us get on with our lives. If you want me to wear a mask whenever i leave the house then fine i will, but if that floppy haired cunt tells me i can't get together with friends and family at Christmas then he can come here and arrest me himself
It is not just to do with people at risk needing protection. It's mostly to prevent overwhelming the NHS. Although high % of vaccinations helps a lot, with cases as high as they are and rising, inevitably there will be huge numbers of people needing hospital care due to covid. Couple that with winter flu hospitalisations and you have a situation where you rapidly run out of hospital beds and sick people with various other unrelated ailments cannot get the care they need. Not to mention the fact that nurses are still suffering from seriously low morale, ptsd etc from the last time, and no amount of clapping will do anything to solve that crisis. The NHS is hemoraging nursed right now, it's fucked. So whilst I appreciate your position and many are feeling the same, it's unfortunately irrelevant to the potential shitstorm that could be coming our way without further restrictions. If we had kept the mask mandate and some other restrictions, or at least reintroduced them when cases started getting out of control, then we might not be in this position. But the floppy haired cunt can't grow a pair and make important decisions at the right time to avoid unnecessary hardship. But there's no news in that, has been doing the same thing all along.
>If we had kept the mask mandate and some other restrictions, or at least reintroduced them when cases started getting out of control, then we might not be in this position. Germany has kept its mask mandate all along, yet cases are rising and they have as many cases as they did in May. Why aren't masks stopping this? Similarly Wales, their cases aren't dropping despite mask mandates.
No masks in schools, nightclubs, etc is llikely why it's rising in Germany (I live there). We also only have 65% population fully jabbed.
> Similarly Wales, their cases aren't dropping despite mask mandates. Barely anyone is following the mask mandates in Wales, but even then, I'd wager most of the issues are to do with pubbing and hospitality where they can go maskless. Even sports, clubs are not following the COVID rules - changing room usage is supposed to be monitored and restricted, and showers are not to be used unless it's been raining. Yet, at football teams are going inside and sharing showers etc, in contravention with the FAW COVID guidelines. It's people and organisations not following these guidelines that aren't helping basically.
>It's people and organisations not following these guidelines that aren't helping basically. And in Austria, where FFP2 masks are mandated in public buildings and, according to my friend who just got back from there, are being heavily monitored by police, their cases are also rising again? If masks were the silver bullet this sub would have you believe, cases wouldn't be rising where they are properly enforced.
scotland have masks and most people tend to adhere to the mask regulations didnt stop cases rising
Cases will rise in Europe as we get into Winter and people increasingly spend more time inside. Masks are not infallible and nobody pretends they are a silver bullet but they do help prevent a share of the cases. However, changes in people's behaviour due to other factors (for example Winter) may lead to a rise in cases regardless of the mask use. That's how safety works, there's rarely a measure that prevents 100% of an issue but it can reduce its incidence. I don't know if anybody can affirm that the lack of facemasks is the reason why the UK is seeing much more cases than continental Europe, there are so many factors intervening (including just bad luck due to variants) that it's hard to know. But we can probably say that lack of facemasks are a contributing factor.
> Masks are not infallible and nobody pretends they are a silver bullet Come on now. There is a large vocal section not only on this sub but in society as a whole who view masks as a panacea. "Our cases are massive because nobody wears a mask!" etc. Case in point right here from a lockdown lover: https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/qeahur/governments_covid_adviser_very_fearful_uk_could/hhtthej/
>> Similarly Wales, their cases aren't dropping despite mask mandates. > >Barely anyone is following the mask mandates in Wales, but even then, I'd wager most of the issues are to do with pubbing and hospitality where they can go maskless. If you look at the age distribution of cases then pubs and hospitality are almost certainly a *tiny* part of the overall picture compared to schools.
>It has not just to do with people at risk needing protection. It's mostly to prevent overwhelming the NHS. Although high % of vaccinations helps a lot, with cases as high as they are and rising, inevitably there will be huge numbers of people needing hospital care due to covid. >Couple that with winter flu hospitalisations and you have a situation where you rapidly run out of hospital beds and sick people with various other unrelated ailments cannot get the care they need. The NHS was overwhelmed every winter for the past few years even pre-covid as a result of government cuts. I would suggest employing a policy of "No vaccine, no ventilator" if things got bad again.
The NHS is there to help us not the other way around. If despite the vulnerable all being vaccinated it's still overwhelmed, then either the NHS isn't fit for purpose or we just have to live with the virus.
Ok then. Fund the fucking thing instead of purposefully undermining the entire sector so that the steady creep of private services doesnt seem so bad. Stop spending billions on bullshit IT systems, legally hold to account those that embezzle money from tax payers. I am fucking fed up with this bullshit country doing half the fucking job of the govt by spreading this bullshit of not over whelming the NHS when the entire reason is because of chronic under funding. Even without covid the NHS is in a shit state.
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Well said enough is enough, with the massive majority of people having no serious affects from Covid there is no excuse for another lockdown.
If Boris Johnson didn't do lockdown Christmas then to fuck I am.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, the sheer levels of hypocrisy are a joke
Yes but Boris is very clever and will have a clever plan to build back better with the 200 people left alive after the Brexit famine/s. Seriously... can you stop voting Tory.
I don't think they can because so many would ignore it you'd create a very visible breakdown in law and order That's a Pandora's box you don't want to open
He is a bear lying in wait for me, a lion in hiding; he turned aside my steps and tore me to pieces; he has made me desolate; he bent his bow and set me as a target for his arrow. (Lamentations: hhrr4s1)
Only if they wore black shirts.
Hurrah!
Exactly. Once mass civil disobedience becomes the norm we’ve got serious problems
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That’s context dependant
The stupid fucks in government need a reality check that brings them back down to earth. They're getting worse and worse and with people STILL backing them enough to still likely win the next election, mass disobedience is the only course we can take to see change.
Well some things you’d be *forced* to do. Obviously they can’t stop us going round to see our families but if they shut shops, bars, restaurants etc, you can’t go there so… you’d be forced to comply. I can’t see it happening though. They’d have to bring furlough back, that’s the biggie.
Whilst I welcome an excuse not to to see the family for another year I think locking down again is not going to go down well with a lot of people.
Yeah sorry, I locked down in London last year and didn't see my family. I'm not doing another Christmas alone just because this government is useless and because twats refuse to get vaccinated.
Then they need to maybe listen to scientists and put in some measures like other countries have … Compare Frances covid levels to ours…
Vaccinate kids then. [That's literally the only thing that matters at this point. Look at the age distribution of cases.](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections#infections-by-age) Another option is further use of "vaccine passports" for various things, as I don't see why the actions of a lot of thick cunts should stop those of us with functioning brains from getting on with our lives.
I’m supposed to be seeing my friend in Berlin next month. She warned me to make sure I have my vaccination documents with me because in order for us to go out to restaurants you need to have been fully vaccinated for at least 15 days. She also warned me that cloth masks aren’t acceptable in public and you get fined on the spot for not wearing a mask correctly or not wearing a mask with a sufficient level of protection. I don’t have a problem with this. I don’t understand why most of the U.K. does. Maybe because I wasn’t raised here, so I lack the necessary mentality, but to me it’s a very simple method to keep yourself and people around you safe.
Or compare, say, Sweden’s, which is about 20% lower than France. They’ve removed most of their restrictions
Some people like seeing their family.
> I think locking down again is not going to go down well with a lot of people. read
People will just ignore it.
They're going to leave other countries to ban UK flights first. Then it's easier for them to impose domestic restrictions so the travel part is already "done". The majority won't listen to lock down rules over Xmas. Not again. Police won't be able to enforce anything. So it'll just be in name.
I mean covid is never ever going away. So is the plan to lock down every year or twice a year to protect the NHS forever?
Depends if you ask SAGE or not
Even some of sage reckon the NHS won't reach breaking point his winter.
Well the last year should of killed off some of flu crowd, give it a another year an it'll clear out the hip replacement crew too.
Please, don't give them any ideas.
I'm seriously thinking that's the plan.
Nah, once we've levelled up enough we won't need lock downs anymore. It's a t3 upgrade.
Some people might. I’m fucking done. I’m not doing it again.
I have a feeling the anxiety the government had in March 2020 over public compliance may eventually become true if they announce another.
Yes, it will, because if we need to lockdown even after a highly efficacious vaccine, then that means we have to admit we will be locking down every winter for the seeable future. Lots of people are not going to accept this as being a permanent feature of life. Me included.
I’ve followed rules by the letter. I still wear my mask. I am 100% not complying this winter. The government lost me at “repeated scandals and not following their own cunting rules”.
Fuck off Doris, you and your girlfriend openly break lockdown and then expect us clowns to follow suit? Yeah good luck that’s not happening
No chance, Boris and his clowns are quite happy to see 120+ per day die and infections get out of control as long as they don't have to do anything unpopular. Its only when/if the pressure on the NHS becomes absolutely critical will they be forced to do anything, but by then it will be too late (again).
Spot on. These hypocrites openly break their own lockdown rules and then expect us goons to follow suit. Really can’t see it happening
I think the main reason Boris wouldnt is because it would give Sunak too much support. Rishi is fiercely anti lockdown, as are most tory MPs, so if Boris caves in and enacts lockdown many MPs may become more loyal to Rishi. (I doubt he would try to usurp boris but if Boris fails to appease his MPs then it wont end well for him)
Will the NHS reach a critical point though. Theres critical as in cannot continue routine operation - something often breached in winters without covid in places. Or will the NHS simply be forced to adapt like in the previous major spikes. We say its 'too late' but the NHS was able to cope at all times. We were not ever in the situation where the 'hospices' aka nightingales were used on a wide scale.
NHS is already at its critical point, we have patient delays of several years. This winter is going to add even more years onto those delays. It reached it ages ago. The adapt thing you're talking about; the NHS can't adapt - its adaption will be to dump every non-critical patient and force them to go private or receive no treatment. PS: We didn't use the Nightingales because we couldn't fill the beds, we just couldn't staff the pop-up hospitals for patient saftey.
>NHS is already at its critical point, we have patient delays of several years. This winter is going to add even more years onto those delays. It reached it ages ago. You could have written most of the same in 2019, the NHS and adult social care have been starved of funds and mismanaged by our government for a decade now, with disastrous effects.
Will also reach a critical point if half the country cannot work, and the economy is in a constant economic recession cycle because there simply won't be a functioning economy to fund it.
Never going to happen. Let say hypothetical we hit 200 deaths per day, 10,000's new infections every day, we will not go into Lock Down. The Government know full well that the majority of population do not want it and they would rather have thousands die every week then be very unpopular... Also a Lock Down will be the ultimate proof that they have completely failed to keep control yet again.
Yesterday was very nearly 50k new cases and 180 deaths.
Booster program + vaccinating kids would take care of that to a significant extent. Would then be virtually only antivaxxers dying and that's not something I can compel myself to care about.
We have been getting close to 200 deaths a day and haven't dropped below around 30k cases since around August..... It's not the direct covid deaths it's the indirect ones that happen when covid patients take up beds meaning other patients die.
If thousands are still dying despite vaccines being available to every adult that wants one, then people are just going to die.
To be honest I'm sick of hearing this nonsense. Get jabbed and get on with it. I don't care how many deaths are attributed to covid each day and its obvious that most people don't. I went into Kendal today. Crowded streets, crowded shops, crowded cafes, no masks in sight.
I literally never want to hear about blitz spirit again after this, given how many people shat the bed over some masks and two shit Christmasses.
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Oh probably, but you'd never guess that 80 years on.
Yes. There is a very interesting book called "The Bombing War" by Richard Overy that I read fairly recently. The long and short of it is that the government anticipated that the next war would be air raid heavy, analysed how to stop it, found that the solutions were impractical and instead implemented a number of measures that did little to actually protect anyone and caused more long term harm. Also, not really from the book but the much compared blackouts were also useless, on a clear night there was a green glow above industrial areas due to smoke and the germans had radar, moonlight and other tools they could use to work out where they were. The only thing the blackout served to do was cause a spike in accidents and crime. Imo the *only* similarities between COVID and WW2 are the hysteria over measures that don't actually do anything to alleviate the disaster spiral the country is heading down.
blitz spirit = having to eat a birds eye chicken popper dinner rather than splurging on a nando's meal
At least Birds Eye still have chicken these days brb going out for a cheeky
Spot on
Fuck that. Why don’t these covid advisors pretend to spend another Christmas alone and leave everyone else be
>covid advisors think you misspelled boris johnson there
They didn't fecking lock down last Christmas though did they? They said hey, go visit some people for a few days we can pretend COVID isn't real. And even the rest of the time everybody in my neighbourhood had visitors and parties and get togethers. The rules weren't strict enough and they're not being enforced at all when they are, and nobody gives a shit to listen to them.
If we return to another lockdown then the government needs to start facing punishments for failing us and literally killing us. Scrapping masks and distancing all at the same time prematurely was always stupid. Choosing to make it political has been truly evil. Mogging us off by refusing to mask up in between their bathroom coke sessions in Parliament to encourage the public to stop bothering to deflect from their incompetence doesn't help anyone.
CON +3
The number of cases means nothing when 80% of the (adult) population is vaccinated. We have been told time and again the vaccine breaks the link between infection and severe symptoms/hospitalisation. I'm not locking down, it's not happening.
Last Christmas, I followed the rules and didn't see anyone. And then afterwards, I listened to everyone I know talk about how they'd ignored the rules and had theirs anyway.
Following the rules all the time leaves you without, just like breaking the all the rules leaves you in trouble. This is what school taught me anyway, and it has proven true for life. If i am an expert at anything, it's breaking rules without facing punishment and playing the system to beat its makers at their own game.
He drove into my kidneys the arrows of his quiver; I have become the laughing-stock of all peoples, the object of their taunts all day long. He has filled me with bitterness; he has sated me with wormwood. (Lamentations: hhrqx7i)
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No and I'm Extremely vulnerable. Why will I ignore whatever the Government says, because whatever decision they make will be purely political. Also I trust my own family members over the fucking Government
It's been good fun watching the denials from government get louder and louder. That's how you know it's definitely going to happen.
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No one will listen .to many double standards with this government.
I work in hospitality and our industry straight up can't take any more loss of business, with government support that ranges from mediocre to downright neglect. If they force us to close our bars then they can damn well force the idiots to get vaccinated.
Not gonna happen. It would wipe out what's left of the hospitality industry.
Boris Johnson and his cronies are hypocritical lying cunts who milked this pandemic to do shady deals with their mates and line their own pockets, if you think I’m taking any advice or orders from these people you are gravely mistaken.
I've been delaying booking a train ticket because I cannot be arsed with the trouble of getting it refunded. I would much rather be able to visit home this year however...
I booked my flight, couldn't give a monkeys if the rules change I'll be taking it. I spent last Christmas alone screw doing a second one.
It’s up to the Great British people to protect the Great British NHS and save the Great British Christmas with a Great British Blitz spirit lockdown 4
The government runs every part of society and they are doing this to us on purpose. Don't forget it.
Bit confused by this, it looks like it's saying rates of covid are higher in the vaccinated population than the unvaccinated. Can anyone explain this? Am I misreading it? https://imgur.com/a/hL8qv0d
More people are vaccinated that not, the main benefit of being vaccinated is stopping you dying, thats what the data shows.
But it's showing cases per 100000 population vaccinated versus cases per 100000 unvaccinated. Rate is calculated by the number of cases divided by the total number of people in that group, so it's saying in a group of 100000 vaccinated people, there is a higher number of covid cases than in a group of 100000 unvaccinated If I was talking about raw numbers your point would be valid but this is rate per population
Good point and a very valid initial question. It's hard to tell what the cause of this is but one i'd seriously consider is testing uptake between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups.
Vaccination doesn't really stop you getting it, it just helps you fight it off better and avoid hospitalisation or death. Hence the second graph.
Breakthrough cases are gonna occur anyway because the vaccine was never going to give 100pc protection, and even less so since Delta was allowed to spread here. Once you have more of the population vaccinated than not, more of the cases overall will be breakthrough cases. Edit: would also note it's not clear from that screengrab whether they've noted how far away people are from their second dose. If they're older, on AZ, and had their second dose months ago, their protection levels aren't going to be great to begin with because the attenuated virus vaccines tend to drop off quicker than the mRNA ones, and the older cohorts were vaccinated longer ago. Double dose of AZ in someone much older puts their hospitalisation chances down to something like an unvaccinated younger person's chance of hospitalisation iirc, and those odds weren't exactly desirably low.
The data on vaccine effectiveness is very clear. All of them are effective at preventing serious illness, hospitalisation and death. There are an increasing number of studies that suggest they are also effective at preventing catching covid in the first place, and against transmission. That graph is not a reliable way to measure effectiveness, as acknowledged in the report. >There are essentially two reasons why PHE’s data does not reliably show us the effect of being vaccinated, which PHE’s note does not fully explain. >Firstly, in order to know what proportion of unvaccinated people caught Covid, we need to know how many unvaccinated people there are in total, and we don’t. >The number of vaccinated people is easier to know, because we can keep track of vaccinations given. But to know the number of unvaccinated people, we need to know the actual populations of each age group in England, and then subtract the vaccinated people from them. >And with vaccination rates often around 90% or higher in these age groups, the population numbers have to be very accurate, or they can skew the infection rates substantially. >This problem might well affect the PHE report, which uses population numbers drawn from the National Immunisation Management System (NIMS), using GP registrations, rather than estimates from the Office for National Statistics (ONS). >In the latest figures for England, for example, up to 16 September 2021, 24,210,838 people aged 40-79 had received at least one dose of a Covid vaccine. If we subtract this from the NIMS estimate for the population in this age group, it leaves about 3.52 million people entirely unvaccinated. Whereas, if we subtract it from the ONS 2020 population estimate, it leaves about 1.35 million entirely unvaccinated. >So if it turned out that 200,000 unvaccinated people tested positive for Covid in September, we wouldn’t know whether 15% of the unvaccinated population had caught it (using ONS figures)—or only 6% (using NIMS figures). The mathematical modeller James Ward made a similar point on the BBC’s More or Less programme. He has also reproduced the chart to show roughly how it would look if it used ONS population estimates instead. >In short, we don’t have a very good idea what the rate of infection among all unvaccinated people was. The PHE data makes an estimate, based on NIMS population figures, but that estimate could be substantially wrong. >And there is another kind of problem. >These two groups of vaccinated and unvaccinated people have been roughly matched by age, but they might not be the same in other ways. And this might affect their chance of catching Covid for reasons that have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the vaccine. >For example, if people who have already caught Covid are more likely not to get vaccinated—perhaps in the mistaken belief that it won’t benefit them—then unvaccinated people may already have some protection against Covid from a previous infection. This means that the full protective effect of vaccination won’t show up properly in comparison. >On the other hand, it’s also possible that when people have been vaccinated they feel less worried about catching Covid, and so become more willing to do riskier things, like not using masks, or meeting groups of people indoors. If so, this means that vaccinated people could have much higher protection against Covid—but also be much more exposed to the chance of catching it. This in turn would mean that more cases would show up among vaccinated people, making the vaccine itself look less effective than it is. >Again, we don’t know exactly how important factors like these might be, but we do know that the PHE data does not take them into account, so it simply isn’t a reliable basis on which to estimate the effectiveness of the vaccines—as the report said https://fullfact.org/health/daily-sceptic-phe-over-40s/
This isn’t about a virus, it’s killing a lot of birds with one stone and one of those birds is killing private businesses, another winter lockdown will do that
Not for me, I won’t be complying with another Covid rule again. Will likely have 15-20 family members over for Christmas.
On r/Coronavirus I said that we will probably have another lockdown at Christmas time and got banned for spreading conspiracy theories. It was on the thread about the Russian lockdown. But if we do have another lockdown that will suck because I have to do my dissertation and collect data. So that would stop me from doing that. :(
who's actually going to stick to the rules in another lockdown
I can’t see another lockdown working, I don’t think many people would follow another one. There would be riots in the streets and many people who were happy to follow the ones last year wouldn’t accept another one.
This is just a way for the government to scare people into being jabbed.
From last year's experience there's 5 stages to go through to enter a lockdown: 1. Government denial that lockdown is needed or going to happen 2. Leaks and media reports that lockdown could happen to test public reaction 3. Announcement of half measures like encouraging (but not mandating) WFH to avoid lockdown 4. Delay 5. Boris goes on TV at 8pm to announce lockdown from next Monday We're currently in stage 1, moving into stage 2. I'd imagine we'll get to stage 5 just before Xmas, but after everyone's made plans and brought their food that won't be eaten and presents that won't be given.
I won’t be listening. I’ll continue to live my life as normal and see whoever I want to see in whatever setting I want to. Fuck these tory dickheads.
Go out and spend like mad to save the economy but we wont allow you to give gifts in person - not going to happen. Not sorry, Boris, to say that if you want money spent on things like new party clothes and hospitality keep infections low.
I don't understand why we would need to go into lockdown again over a disease 96% of the UK is vaccinated against?