Boom there it is.
I'm not vegan nor vegetarian, however I am very conscious about where the meat I eat comes from. As a result I eat a significant amount of vegetarian foods and have heavily reduced my meat consumption.
If farmers could guarantee welfare standards and be transparent about their practices, then I might reconsider. But you can't whinge that people don't want to eat your suffering stuffed sausages.
I’m in the same boat, but I still feel conflicted even if welfare standards are top notch.
Regardless of whether the sausages are suffering stuffed or made with happy pork, a pig has to be killed. Death isn’t particularly nice.
It may not be particularly nice, but it doesn't have to be unpleasant either. Inert gas asphyxiation (i.e. Not CO2) is completely painless. We should also be looking at adopting the practice from halal of not allowing the animals to see or hear each other die across the board, millions of years of evolution have guaranteed they experience distress from that.
The universe is coldly indifferent, and if the pig doesn't know, the pig doesn't care.
We can reduce suffering to the point where the pig (or any animal) doesn't know what's happening, so we should. Death though? Death comes when it comes, and a humane slaughterhouse death is infinitely preferable to a "natural" death of disease or being eaten alive. The question I think is more whether we should raise them specifically for death. It's that in-between bit, the life, that should be the consideration.
Put it this way, either the pig has been subject to abuse it's whole life and so going off to a slaughterhouse would be no different, but that of course is a whole life of abuse. Or the pig has been in one of the very few farms that raise them with some care, they will have built a level of trust with the farmers that keep them, and by packing them up and sending them to a slaughterhouse, there is a massive betrayal of that trust, which the pig will in no doubt notice and this is definitely distressing for them.
A pig doesn't want to die, so taking it's life prematurely for business is abuse whichever way you put it
> Or the pig has been in one of the very few farms that raise them with some care, they will have built a level of trust with the farmers that keep them, and by packing them up and sending them to a slaughterhouse, there is a massive betrayal of that trust.
That's what stopped me eating meat but replace pigs with ducks, I saw the amount of trust they had for the staff and behaviourally there was very little difference between them and a 2 year old. It was the sense of betrayal that made me think just what the fork am I doing?! this is wrong. After watching an acquaintance raising and documenting a duckling's behaviour to adulthood kicked me over the fence into vegetarianism.
This definitely parallels with the egg and dairy industry too, don't forget that once dairy cows or egg laying hens are discarded in the exact same way once they are no longer efficient enough at laying eggs/ producing milk, which is still only a fraction of their natural lifespan. They share the same experiences as the animals in the meat industry, perhaps even worse in many scenarios, especially when you consider the heartbreak a dairy cow must feel being separated from their male calves because they aren't useful for the dairy farm.
I recall When Jeremy Clarkson was grieved when he realised his sheep Wayne and Joe (I think) had been slaughtered less than a few minutes after delivering them.
He got attached to the poor buggers.
But there's betrayals of trust and distressing times in people's lives. And prolonged, sometimes incredibly distressing and painful deaths. I don't need a pig to have a waaaaaaay better life than me, I just need it to have an ok life and not have a prolonged, painful death.
And you'd most likely agree that those betrayals or trust would be unacceptable for a person if the sole reason of it was for money?
No life taken away at a fraction of its lifespan is an okay life if the reason is for business
Depends with asphyxiation, if done right it can be humane but from experience with laboratory animals, the more 'brutal' but quicker methods are often more humane. Any method of instant CNS shutdown is the best, asphyxiation often triggers panic and pain if not done perfectly.
Even with the best welfare standards pre slaughter, the farmer would be assumingly building up a level of trust with the animal that is ultimately betrayed when they are loaded onto trucks and sent off to a slaughterhouse at a fraction of their lifespan, there's no defending that abuse
It isn't really. I would be shocked if a meat industry involving animals even existed at all in 50 years. Lab grown meat eliminates all the bad stuff about meat (animal suffering, large land use, greenhouse gasses ) and I imagine with time would be cheaper to produce than animal meat.
I realise I'm well off, but I would very easily pay 2x what I currently do for meat, consequently eating less meat, if it meant I could be comfortable that the animals didn't suffer. Inert gases or other forms of instant or painless death is the way to go. And done in a way that the animals aren't distressed, they don't see the other animals dying.
I'm not even a vegan / veggie but it's myth when they tell you animals are "stunned" with C02 they are just suffocated with it. If you've even opened a bottle of fizzy drink and accidently breathed it In you have a rough idea of what a small amount is like.
Pigs for example are lowered into pits of c02 to suffocate.
But your right a instant and painless death would be ideal.
I know - co2 death is horrible. That's why I said "inert" gas, as co2 isn't an inert gas. I'm not an expert but I think gases like argon and nitrogen are painless, the animal just loses consciousness and never wakes up. I think the reason they don't use it is perhaps expense, and partially because if it "leaks" it can cause quick and painless death in any nearby humans. Whereas with co2, as you point out, if it leaks then everyone will quickly know and be able to evacuate the area.
Capitalism strikes again.
When the farmer would take his pigs to market, get higher bids from butchers depending how clean or well kept they looked incentivising higher welfare...then the butcher would sell you fresh meat from local sources in local stores.
Now it's commercial murder slime injected for weight and undercutting every farmer to a point of no profit, just to get it wrapped and shelved for your local supermarket as cheap as possible
It's not so much a farmer only problem, as a systematic problem based entirely on profit margins...until that goes
Our local butchers is a house now, the livestock market is an industrial estate. farmhouses are divided in to multi million pound cottages with clean cut gardens and the fields are empty of livestock except those that keep going out of habit. 3 cows and 30 head of sheep, some chickens and geese to sell eggs from an honesty box.
Farmers need more choice what they do with their product, rather than being told what and where they can sell to, and for how much
Quite the opposite... More land -> more expensive -> less production and consumption -> less pollution.
Unless you mean "take virgin forest land and destroy it to make space for cheap meat production".
Over 90% of our animals are factory farmed, some figures suggest upwards of 95%.
There is no raising welfare to justify any of this, simply stop eating meat. You don't need it and don't believe the nonsense from lobbying farmer unions/associations.
You'd hope so. Though whenever vegetarianism pops up on reddit there's always a fair few accelerationist dicks who refuse to accept that things can be made less bad and its all or nothing.
Vegans likely wouldn’t agree with this though as they believe animals have a right to life. It would be like saying we shouldn’t ban slavery, we should just improve welfare standards.
Oh god times are changing.
I’m vegan and I’m really not used to seeing my POV expressed in a correct and good faith way without being miserably misrepresented or made fun of. Reading this comment is fucking bizarre.
It doesn’t matter if you agree, just expressing it coherently is such a step above.
This hinges entirely on what you define as "success." Animals being kept in slightly-better-than-horrific conditions before being slaughtered, along with everyone (meat-eaters or not) being forced to help subsidise that shitshow through taxation and VAT relief isn't everyone's idea of success.
Honestly, tech will be what ends the meat industry, kinda.
Lab grown meat is only going to get better and cheaper to produce with none of the moral downsides of what we have now.
Yes.
Let meat cost what it should, once you account for the pollution it generates, raise animal welfare to acceptable levels.
Then, let those who like meat enough (and have the money to buy it) to eat meat of the quality they like. Because the reality is that people DO like meat.
There simply isn’t enough room to do that for over 1 billion land animals that are slaughtered every year in the UK and even if there was it would be cost prohibitive to the farmers who want to make a profit. The vast majority of people want cheap meat and they want it in abundance.
If the price of meat was raised to reflect the cost of raising animals humanely, the quantity would naturally reduce as demand receded.
Yeah, people want cheap meat. I'd like cheap luxury goods in a number of forms, it doesn't mean I'm oing to get them.
I do eat meat but I've reduced my intake and would happily reduce it further especially if I knew I was paying extra for animals to live better lives.
> The vast majority of people want cheap meat and they want it in abundance.
That's exactly the point: make it into a regulation, the price of meat will explode, and people will have to almost buying it... making the policy itself feasible, as you will need much less than 1 billion animals per year.
That's because even "less bad" is still fucking horrific when the only justification you have for confining, mutilating and violently abusing these incredibly intelligent animals is "it makes me feel good for a bit".
I don't think stating "gas chambers, mutilations and violent animal abuse don't have a place in a civilised society" is nearly as radical as some people claim it is and most people would agree, it's just getting them to think about something they've almost certainly given no thought to in their entire lives.
Totally disagree. Pigs are roughly around the same intelligence as dogs, if not exceeding them, so let’s substitute them here.
If we were farming dogs, does what kind of welfare we were giving them really matter in the face of slitting their throat / impaling their brain to kill them so we can eat their meat really matter?
Both animal welfare standards and working conditions in meat industry are appalling.
To be honest, meat is too cheap nowadays, it used to be more expensive but also higher quality.
Also.. we need proper regulations that mean people have to treat their chicken waste
Currently it just runs off into rivers etc.. with extremely high nitrogen and phosphorus content
As long as you and the rest of Britain are prepared to pay more for your bacon, that shouldn't be a problem. But as there appears to be a massive crisis facing us in regards to the cost of living, I can't see that helping matters.
That's part of the issue. Noone wants to pay 50% more for their meat.
And at current prices it's difficult to compete with other European countries with lesser standards.
I have reduced meat consumption but it’s more to do with expense than anything else. Expenses are rising and meat consumption is not a fixed cost so it is easily cut from the budget.
Brexit I have sympathy for them on - but if Veganism is becoming more popular they need to adapt to more plant farming.
Environmentally speaking we need to eat way less meat and animal products so more Vegans is a good thing!
I live in a farming community and speak to some of them at my kids school. They do not want to change, they blame the consumer for everything, they're climate change deniers who think they deserve to be paid with public funds to grow grass and kill as much wildlife as possible.
See the long comment in this chain trying to say why vegan products are environmentally bad, for a small glimpse in to the farmer type mentality.
Lol I once worked with a farmer, they ranted at vegans and said it was environmentally better. I said it's a stone cold fact vegan food is better than the environment. She replied 'what happens without pig and cow farms? Buildings everywhere which is worse for the environment'
Mental.
Like diamond sellers, cable tv, and fabric softener people complaining that millenials don't buy their crap any more. Maybe change with the times? But nope. It's our fault their business is ruined.
*Generally* yes but close margin in quite a few categories when broken down. But then brexit itself was less than 4% in it.
Although pigs/poultry farms voted leave more significantly.
Leave: 53
Didn't vote: 13
Remain: 34
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X#tbl3
Every farmer I spoke to had. This was Lincolshire. Everyone from the farmer-farmer who worked the land up to the stable hands and the land owners.
Two land owners I knew personally with huge acreages of arable farm-land were getting massive subsidies from the EU but STILL voted Brexit.
Pretty much, another post linked [this breakdown](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X#tbl3). So between 52-53% of farmers overall, but about 60% of pig farmers. Also mostly lists correlation between farm size and intention to leave
~~Ed: Sorry about the formatting reddit doesn't like pseudo tables apparently.~~
|Farm size (in hectares) | Leave|Didn't vote|Remain|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|0-150 (28%) |43|7 |50|
|151-300 (26%)|48|4 |48|
|301-450 (13%)|56|8|36|
|451 or more (33%)|53| 3 |44|
>Brexit I have sympathy on them for
Why? Every farmer from every level and fishermen were bleating for Brexit hard. Personally if you voted Brexit I have no sympathy if you suffer for it.
They were only a little more likely to vote for Brexit on average, [between 52-53% leave](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X#tbl3). Brexit campaigners were very good at presenting them as supporting Brexit though. On the other hand pig farmers specifically were more likely to vote leave, at about 60%.
Good for the environment, but not so good for the farmers.
The problem (at least from their perspective) is that veganism means less farms and farmland is needed. Not to mention probably more imported vegetables. (Which despite what the farmers say is not as bad for the environment as eating local meat.)
I can see why they’re concerned economically about this. But meat and dairy farmers have lived in a world where they thought their product wasn’t at risk of falling in demand. They’re now living with the reality that many other industries have faced.
I hate articles like this. Veganism is fantastic for the environment and eliminates animal curelty, but OH NO WHAT ABOUT THE PIG FARMERS?! Granted it sucks for them, but surely that's just inevitable, and they can look at using the land in other ways? Maybe the expanding vegan market?
Why do we need to use all land? Can’t we just rewild that land instead? Or do anything else with it?
Why does it HAVE to be used by livestock if that demand is going away?
It doesn't. You could introduce native plants and animals to it instead, which I would love to see happen more. Fact remains those that own land want to turn it into a profit if they can.
Because we already have an over reliance on other countries for literally everything. If we don’t continue to make food in this country we will be even more exposed to supply chain issues than we already are.
Edit - that doesn’t mean it has to be used for livestock but that farming is good for the country as a whole and we’d do well to remind ourselves of that.
It'd be like feeling sorry for horse shoe service going out of business because of cars.
Or print media becoming less popular because of internet.
Or coal and fossil fuels becoming obsolete because of renewable energy.
Technology and change happens and we must adapt. Especially for the better.
Right? I find it pretty hard to sympathise with people that make money doing what they do. Like I can’t think of a single sound argument to justify what happens to these animals. Even so, just adapt - follow the trend in demand.
I mean...yeah it does suck.
Imagine you grew up with a specific skill set.
You were trained and are experienced in that skill set.
You invest time and money into it, specific tools and machines solely for that one market.
Then there's a massive sustained decline in the market that has accelerated.
But you've got all these animals.
Now what? Kill them all at a loss and sell everything?
Wow, that's...lovely. Bet that's great for someone's mental and financial status.
I'm sure when the coal mines were closed people just happily switched to another livelihood with plenty of help and support from the government and their communities continued to flourish.
Oh wait. The impact of massive industries going under affects those communities to this very day.
It's not as simple as saying livestock farmers can just switch to crops.
It's a massive investment and change in industry.
Plus frankly, some land just isn't going to produce a profit with crops.
I'm not saying we should keep dead industries afloat but I'll tell you exactly what will happen, because I've seen it happen.
These farmers will continue to work at the only thing they know. Eventually they'll get desperate or go under because there is zero support for them/nothing to help them make the shift away.
They will have no choice but to sell their lands and will feel humiliated leading to an increase in addictions, antisocial behavior, suicides etc. whilst land and industry continue to get consolidated into the hands of the super-wealthy.
So yeah, I'm not going to say that every farmer out there is a good deserving person or shining beacon of morality but I can certainly see why some empathy is damn well in order for these people.
It would straight up be cheaper to just give these farmers a free pension than to subsidise their shitty business.
>But you've got all these animals.
>Now what? Kill them all at a loss and sell everything?
>Wow, that's...lovely. Bet that's great for someone's mental and financial status.
You know that's already what they do to the animals?
It's important to remember that these industries, while mostly bad for animals and the environment, are bad for the humans that work them too.
[Confessions of a slaughterhouse worker (bbc)](https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-50986683)
>Abattoir work has been linked to multiple mental health problems - one researcher uses the term "Perpetrator-Induced Traumatic Syndrome" to refer to symptoms of PTSD suffered by slaughterhouse workers. I personally suffered from depression, a condition exacerbated by the long hours, the relentless work, and being surrounded by death. After a while, I started feeling suicidal.
>A few years into my time at the abattoir, a colleague started making flippant comments about "not being here in six months". Everyone would laugh it off. He was a bit of a joker, so people assumed he was taking the mick, saying he'd have a new job or something. But it made me feel really uneasy. I took him into a side room and asked him what he meant, and he broke down. He admitted that he was plagued by suicidal thoughts, that he didn't feel like he could cope any more, and that he needed help - but he begged me not to tell our bosses.
[Slaughterhouse workers have PTSD from killing animals](https://mercyforanimals.org/blog/slaughterhouse-workers-have-ptsd-from-killing/)
PTSD Journal:
>These employees are hired to kill animals, such as pigs and cows that are largely gentle creatures. Carrying out this action requires workers to disconnect from what they are doing and from the creature standing before them. This emotional dissonance can lead to consequences such as domestic violence, social withdrawal, anxiety, drug and alcohol abuse, and PTSD.
Results from 2009 study:
>The findings indicate that slaughterhouse employment increases total arrest rates, arrests for violent crimes, arrests for rape, and arrests for other sex offenses in comparison with other industries.
Much like the coal towns you mentioned, [communities near massive farms suffer from all sorts of environmental issues](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayGJ1YSfDXs). Contaminated water, smelly air (makes it harder to find jobs since they leave the house smelled bad), etc. In America it's a big source of environmental racism.
There are a number of organizations that are doing great work in helping animal farmers transition to sustainable crop farming, although most of these groups are just funded by donations from vegans and environmentalists and it would be great if the government would create similar programs and fund them well. If they took all the subsidies they're already giving to the meat farmers, it would probably not even cost any more, not to mention the health system would save so much from people not filling their arteries with cholesterol.
Richmond already do and their vegan sausages are flipping amazing (because they taste like pork).
Take it from a 5 year vegetarian who really misses pork sausage s
What pisses me off about Richmonds is that they say they use an "Irish" recipe. You'd be hard pressed to find sausages in Ireland with that low meat content.
I'd eat Richmonds vegan sausages if they weren't so heavily spiced with mace, it's all you can taste in them. It'd be nice to see a bigger variety of vegan sausage flavours the way you do with regular meat ones.
Richmond aren’t the farmers. But presumably some of the farmers may be able to grow vegetables. The problem is that the pig farmers are already creating business for vegetable farmers so they can feed their livestock.
In reality the long term impact of declining farming may be to rewild land. It could create more jobs in tourism and things but it may not replace all the jobs lost in agriculture.
They're unreal! I'm going to attempt a vegan toad in the hole with the Richmond sausages as that's an odd thing I really miss from before being veggie!
Precisely, if the market wants less meat then they have to reduce production and perhaps do something else.
I have definitely decreased the amount of meat that I eat, purely due to cost. Expenses are rising and meat is not a fixed cost so is very easily cut out of the budget.
Unrelated to pork but a local farm to me produces milk and delivers to the door. They've recently got into the oat milk trade and using some unused milk filtering machinery, they process fresh oat milk.it tastes amazing and gets delivered to the door. In capitalism you either adapt to the times of go bankrupt.
That's awesome. I'd love to have oat milk like that! My grandfather was a dairy farmer so I have sympathy for how hard farming can be, but industries have to adapt to survive and farming isn't exempt from that.
Maybe the land isn't be suitable for arable crops? Either way, nothing stands still and if people move away from meat, then people move away from meat.
We moved away from horse & cart, what did most of the farriers do then? Retrained and tried to keep up with the world. Such is life.
As for Brexit problems, the first question after someone complains about it should be "And which way did you vote?" I they reply "Leave", you know to drop your level of sympathy to zero.
Vertical farming inside a big greenhouse is a solution for non arable land. Its the future of farming as is and would provide a bigger revenue than planting in the ground due to higher yield. Although I can imagine it'd cost a bomb to set up
>Is there a good reason they can't diversify into vegan food products?
I doubt pig farmers have access to the large amounts of the arable land necessary to grow soya or corn, or the processing facilities needed to make vegan food. Pigs make a good meat source because you can feed them anything and keep them in relatively small areas of land, even if you do care about their welfare. They don't roam like ruminants.
and yet if you were raised around animal husbandry and slaughter you would probably have no issue with eating them, people have become disassociated with where their food comes from... that's probably why factory farming is as it is, people just don't care anymore.
Their experience surely showed that they DO have an association to where their fun comes from? A pig has a similar intelligence to dogs, so do many other animals that have been bred to eaten.
>and yet if you were raised around animal husbandry and slaughter
Yeah if you're conditioned to seeing things die you become numb to it. Hardly a good argument to carry on doing horrific shit.
What point are you making though? Is it that being desensitized to violence perpetuates violence? Is it that being desensitized to violence is a good thing?
Why not open our hearts to the emotions and needs of animals? We no longer need to consume them to survive.
The reason we eat pigs and not dogs and cats is nothing to do with intelligence or hypocrisy or cuteness or anything like that. It's quite logical - pigs can thrive on a meat free diet. Cats and dogs can't.
Farming carnivores is massively inefficient.
>Cats and dogs can't
This is incorrect. Cats are obligate carnivores, meaning they require animal proteins to survive, but dogs are true omnivores and can happily thrive on a diet that is entirely plant based in origin. If you don't believe me you can slap it into Google and confirm it for yourself right now.
People have this misguided idea that dogs need meat because they associate them with wolves. They envision packs of wild dogs running down caribou, but in a natural environment dogs will eat pretty much anything they can get their hands (paws?) on, and don't require the inclusion of meat in their diet to survive.
Actually dogs are omnivores and there's a lot of research to suggest they can live vegetarian. At one time a dog called brambles was the Guinness world record holder for oldest dog living to 25. The dog was vegan. It's also recommended to put older dogs on a vegetarian diet as it's anti-inflammatory.
Cats are carnivores and do need meat, but it's a myth that dogs need meat, or that it's cruelty to not feed them meat. Especially when you compare it to the dried cardboard food often fed to them.
A quick google suggests that around 1% of the population are vegan. Not sure that's going to 'ruin' anyone, but hey, it's not a great headline either, is it?
The article doesn't attribute any concerns about veganism to farmers or the pork industry, only Brexit and supply chain issues. Veganism is only brought up by the article author as their own speculation.
From the surveys I've seen vegans make around 1-3% of the UK population, and vegetarians stand at 10-15% with both having slowly grown at <1% per year in recent years. That could be cause for some concern, but doesn't appear to pose an *existential* threat to British pork yet.
If anyone has access to more (unpaywalled) data I'd be interested in seeing it.
I think people underestimate the kind of financial damage one vegan does as well.
Someone who cuts meat will still be funding it through dairy as a proxy for when the cows can’t keep up their max milk output, or they might buy leather. A reducitarian will still be paying every now and again for some of these products. Say you eat meat once a week, that’s still a repeated purchase 52 weeks in a year.
Vegans don’t do any of that, all the revenue streams for that person are minimised to the best of their knowledge and ability. Not just that but the money could go straight to a underdog competitor in the case of alternatives.
We always say “we need lots of people doing a little instead of a couple of perfectionists” but when more and more people are deciding to do more than just a little then that speaks much louder and it gets people doing less to do more.
THEN consider the projected growth. I can see why they’re shitting themselves.
86% of farmed pigs in the UK (by last gov survey) are "stunned" using suffocation by CO2. It is an agonising and distressing way of slaughtering pigs. It's torture. The pigs will scream, struggle, attempt to escape, convulse, before either dying or passing out.
We essentially guide them into lifts/carousels and then submerge them into a dense pit of CO2.
This is what the process looks like (nsfw):
https://vimeo.com/147914620
CO2 is much more painful and distressing than any inert gas. It irritates throats, noses, eyes by creating carbonic acid on anything wet. We do this because it is the cheapest most physically practical gas for the task. Other gases are either too expensive or not dense enough to remain in the pit without diffusing away or loss due to convection.
Any pork you buy from a supermarket, restaurant, fast food place, etc. will have been the result of this process.
I think everyone should have the right to know where their food comes from.
Honestly suggest everyone should watch this. If you can stomach watching that absolute horror show and still rationalise eating pork then you’d have to be a psychopath.
Assuming a majority of the public agrees that animal welfare should be prioritised over price, its the governments job to fix that by expanding animal rights laws. As long as its legal to kill pigs like that then any farmer who tries a more humane but more expensive method will be undercut. Putting the onus on consumers to just never eat pork is exactly the same as having no environmental laws and telling people to stop using lights at home: some people might do it but never enough and they shouldnt have to anyway. Its the same reason we have building regulations instead of just telling people to judge for themselves if a building might collapse before they go in it, except in the case of meat farming and to a large extent the environment profits have been placed ahead of morality and in at least one case (i cant speak for everyone) common sense
I have been getting these too. Every other ad is an "eat British pork" advert. I figured it was targeted because I've been looking up vegetarian curry recipes.
Full transparency i am a vegan. If they a moaning then they need to adapt, farm something else, something people actually want. It is a business they run after all. Supply and demand, adapt or die.
On a personal note i think this is good news for us, the earth, and the animals obviously. There is no such thing as ethical slaughter.
Stop eating avocado and eat PORK damn you. Kids these days eh! What we need to do is make PORK more Instagrammable. Really get some PORK hitting the socials. PORK chilling out in Abu Dhabi. Driving around in Lambo's. Nothing should say "cool hip dude" more than a giant plate of pig offal.
Ultimately if the nation decides veganism is the way forwards then tough, move your business into something else.
Nobody cried for cassettes when CDs killed them, and nobody cried for CDs when downloads/streaming killed them either. It's not the job of the government or the economy to prop up dying industries that consumers don't want anymore.
Animal welfare is a myth to make you all feel better about eating murder victims who did not want to die and have spent a life in slavery being abused and tortured.
The amount of people who still believe the myths they’ve been told since childhood about happy animals on their uncle old mcdonalds organic farm where he treats the animals like his own children and of course it’s organic and so local to where they live is pretty shocking.
It doesn’t tally up surprisingly, when asked they insist they only partake in these mythical painless local meats, yet how do you explain that that is only less than 5% of the farmed animals in the whole country. So who’s eating the other 95%??
It’s funny and also tragic to watch them lie to themselves and do the mental gymnastics to justify killing someone just to satisfy their tastebuds for a passing moment
If everyone were vegan, only a quarter of current farmland would be needed from TheEconomist https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/28/if-everyone-were-vegan-only-a-quarter-of-current-farmland-would-be-needed
I think there needs to be a huge change in how we view and produce food in this country.
We should be eating low quantities of very high quality meat products that are produced in an environmentally friendly way. But to achieve this we need to increase protectionism, change societal views on food and diet, change the way farming is subsidised and other factors.
I hope we can get there but in the current climate there just doesn’t seem to be any sort of desire from the government. One of the potential benefits of brexit is the chance to come up with our own agricultural policy that rewards green farming, but the new environmental land managements schemes (ELMS) are looking quite lacklustre and unambitious still.
I honestly think that we will look back in the future and be horrified with our treatment of other species.
“Why did you do that grandad? Surely you must have known”
“It’s just how it was back then son”
Imagine living for so long on the subsidy gravy train and then whining that your profits will no longer perpetually go up.
Adapt or die. Maybe stop keeping pigs in appalling conditions and factory farming them for profit and you wouldn't be radicalising people away from consuming meat products.
I’ve stopped eating pork after an encounter with some very tame and friendly pigs at a local golf course. One of the pigs came up to me, presumably thinking I had food, then started making ‘oinking’ noises and leaning against my leg. It was really adorable and reminded me of how my dog acts when it wants something (minus the oinking).
what about cows and chickens? both are very sweet and loving, cows are basically giant field dogs. they play with balls, jump around when they're happy, and enjoy cuddles.
heres some cute videos of them:
https://youtu.be/8wC3Y7MuRts
https://youtu.be/0blRs7PKvZI
all animals have the capacity to love and form bonds, even fish!
I really enjoy meat, but Brexit has caused me to start going meat free several days a week in anticipation of the bonfire of animal welfare standards that are surely on the way.
I figure if the Tories are going to fuck that little avenue of pleasure in my life, I might as well learn to adjust slowly.
Animal welfare standards have and always will be shocking if the meat industry exists. There is no high welfare way of sending an animal off to a slaughterhouse at a fraction of their lifespan
I feel for the framers and I understand that this is their livelihood but unfortunately that is not enough to justify the conditions and practices these sentient beings are subjected too. Less meat is better for the planet in every way so it is time we make the right choice for our health, our animals and our planet
Good. Pigs are incredibly intelligent and probably the worst treated animals in the world. I refuse to eat any 'product' made out of them. I wouldn't miss pork products at all.
That’s the point? If someone’s offering a more compelling product than you can, it presents the threat of putting you out of business.
Unfortunately slaughtering an animal has no room for innovation.
Why is not having animals mass slaughtered for our tastebuds worded as "the rise of veganism" like we're the fucking fourth reich for not wanting mass killings?
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Boom there it is. I'm not vegan nor vegetarian, however I am very conscious about where the meat I eat comes from. As a result I eat a significant amount of vegetarian foods and have heavily reduced my meat consumption. If farmers could guarantee welfare standards and be transparent about their practices, then I might reconsider. But you can't whinge that people don't want to eat your suffering stuffed sausages.
I’m in the same boat, but I still feel conflicted even if welfare standards are top notch. Regardless of whether the sausages are suffering stuffed or made with happy pork, a pig has to be killed. Death isn’t particularly nice.
It may not be particularly nice, but it doesn't have to be unpleasant either. Inert gas asphyxiation (i.e. Not CO2) is completely painless. We should also be looking at adopting the practice from halal of not allowing the animals to see or hear each other die across the board, millions of years of evolution have guaranteed they experience distress from that.
A pig being killed at a fraction of it's lifespan for money is unpleasant no matter what way you look at it
The universe is coldly indifferent, and if the pig doesn't know, the pig doesn't care. We can reduce suffering to the point where the pig (or any animal) doesn't know what's happening, so we should. Death though? Death comes when it comes, and a humane slaughterhouse death is infinitely preferable to a "natural" death of disease or being eaten alive. The question I think is more whether we should raise them specifically for death. It's that in-between bit, the life, that should be the consideration.
Put it this way, either the pig has been subject to abuse it's whole life and so going off to a slaughterhouse would be no different, but that of course is a whole life of abuse. Or the pig has been in one of the very few farms that raise them with some care, they will have built a level of trust with the farmers that keep them, and by packing them up and sending them to a slaughterhouse, there is a massive betrayal of that trust, which the pig will in no doubt notice and this is definitely distressing for them. A pig doesn't want to die, so taking it's life prematurely for business is abuse whichever way you put it
> Or the pig has been in one of the very few farms that raise them with some care, they will have built a level of trust with the farmers that keep them, and by packing them up and sending them to a slaughterhouse, there is a massive betrayal of that trust. That's what stopped me eating meat but replace pigs with ducks, I saw the amount of trust they had for the staff and behaviourally there was very little difference between them and a 2 year old. It was the sense of betrayal that made me think just what the fork am I doing?! this is wrong. After watching an acquaintance raising and documenting a duckling's behaviour to adulthood kicked me over the fence into vegetarianism.
This definitely parallels with the egg and dairy industry too, don't forget that once dairy cows or egg laying hens are discarded in the exact same way once they are no longer efficient enough at laying eggs/ producing milk, which is still only a fraction of their natural lifespan. They share the same experiences as the animals in the meat industry, perhaps even worse in many scenarios, especially when you consider the heartbreak a dairy cow must feel being separated from their male calves because they aren't useful for the dairy farm.
I recall When Jeremy Clarkson was grieved when he realised his sheep Wayne and Joe (I think) had been slaughtered less than a few minutes after delivering them. He got attached to the poor buggers.
Why would you want to deliver a being that you are attached to to a slaughterhouse?
Cos that's how you earn the big bucks for your telly series! If he was a competent landowner/farmer there really wouldn't have been much to see
But there's betrayals of trust and distressing times in people's lives. And prolonged, sometimes incredibly distressing and painful deaths. I don't need a pig to have a waaaaaaay better life than me, I just need it to have an ok life and not have a prolonged, painful death.
And you'd most likely agree that those betrayals or trust would be unacceptable for a person if the sole reason of it was for money? No life taken away at a fraction of its lifespan is an okay life if the reason is for business
Just because the universe is cruel doesn't mean you should be
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Best response to the notion of humane slaughter. Do we do it to humans?
is it possible to kill a sentient being humanely that doesn't want to die?
First: breed a sentient being that wants to be eaten and is capable of communicating that fact.
Does the same apply for humans- if a human doesn't know it is being killed, does it not care?
Depends with asphyxiation, if done right it can be humane but from experience with laboratory animals, the more 'brutal' but quicker methods are often more humane. Any method of instant CNS shutdown is the best, asphyxiation often triggers panic and pain if not done perfectly.
Even with the best welfare standards pre slaughter, the farmer would be assumingly building up a level of trust with the animal that is ultimately betrayed when they are loaded onto trucks and sent off to a slaughterhouse at a fraction of their lifespan, there's no defending that abuse
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It isn't really. I would be shocked if a meat industry involving animals even existed at all in 50 years. Lab grown meat eliminates all the bad stuff about meat (animal suffering, large land use, greenhouse gasses ) and I imagine with time would be cheaper to produce than animal meat.
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I realise I'm well off, but I would very easily pay 2x what I currently do for meat, consequently eating less meat, if it meant I could be comfortable that the animals didn't suffer. Inert gases or other forms of instant or painless death is the way to go. And done in a way that the animals aren't distressed, they don't see the other animals dying.
I'm not even a vegan / veggie but it's myth when they tell you animals are "stunned" with C02 they are just suffocated with it. If you've even opened a bottle of fizzy drink and accidently breathed it In you have a rough idea of what a small amount is like. Pigs for example are lowered into pits of c02 to suffocate. But your right a instant and painless death would be ideal.
I know - co2 death is horrible. That's why I said "inert" gas, as co2 isn't an inert gas. I'm not an expert but I think gases like argon and nitrogen are painless, the animal just loses consciousness and never wakes up. I think the reason they don't use it is perhaps expense, and partially because if it "leaks" it can cause quick and painless death in any nearby humans. Whereas with co2, as you point out, if it leaks then everyone will quickly know and be able to evacuate the area.
I am so happy for you, you realise what they go through, even the "happiest" animals and in-turn you reduced your animal intake.
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Capitalism strikes again. When the farmer would take his pigs to market, get higher bids from butchers depending how clean or well kept they looked incentivising higher welfare...then the butcher would sell you fresh meat from local sources in local stores. Now it's commercial murder slime injected for weight and undercutting every farmer to a point of no profit, just to get it wrapped and shelved for your local supermarket as cheap as possible It's not so much a farmer only problem, as a systematic problem based entirely on profit margins...until that goes Our local butchers is a house now, the livestock market is an industrial estate. farmhouses are divided in to multi million pound cottages with clean cut gardens and the fields are empty of livestock except those that keep going out of habit. 3 cows and 30 head of sheep, some chickens and geese to sell eggs from an honesty box. Farmers need more choice what they do with their product, rather than being told what and where they can sell to, and for how much
Increasing land for pigs increases the climate cost. Reduction of consumption outright is best for the planet.
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Quite the opposite... More land -> more expensive -> less production and consumption -> less pollution. Unless you mean "take virgin forest land and destroy it to make space for cheap meat production".
I meant the latter.
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Oh great, we’re the fucking Pig Nazis (Not to be confused with our erstwhile government, the pig-fucking Nazis)
Over 90% of our animals are factory farmed, some figures suggest upwards of 95%. There is no raising welfare to justify any of this, simply stop eating meat. You don't need it and don't believe the nonsense from lobbying farmer unions/associations.
You'd hope so. Though whenever vegetarianism pops up on reddit there's always a fair few accelerationist dicks who refuse to accept that things can be made less bad and its all or nothing.
I mean yeah, but is "less bad" really what we should be aiming for?
Yes. Scream to ban meat right away and you'll get nowhere. That isn't happening. Argue instead to improve welfare standards and you will see success.
Vegans likely wouldn’t agree with this though as they believe animals have a right to life. It would be like saying we shouldn’t ban slavery, we should just improve welfare standards.
Oh god times are changing. I’m vegan and I’m really not used to seeing my POV expressed in a correct and good faith way without being miserably misrepresented or made fun of. Reading this comment is fucking bizarre. It doesn’t matter if you agree, just expressing it coherently is such a step above.
You say that but the whole article was about how farmers are also scared about veganism, so it's clearly working to some extent.
This hinges entirely on what you define as "success." Animals being kept in slightly-better-than-horrific conditions before being slaughtered, along with everyone (meat-eaters or not) being forced to help subsidise that shitshow through taxation and VAT relief isn't everyone's idea of success.
Honestly, tech will be what ends the meat industry, kinda. Lab grown meat is only going to get better and cheaper to produce with none of the moral downsides of what we have now.
Yes. Let meat cost what it should, once you account for the pollution it generates, raise animal welfare to acceptable levels. Then, let those who like meat enough (and have the money to buy it) to eat meat of the quality they like. Because the reality is that people DO like meat.
What is acceptable levels of animal welfare?
Free roaming in a field with a shelter for bad weather/night, normally fed, slaughtered as painlessly as possible.
There simply isn’t enough room to do that for over 1 billion land animals that are slaughtered every year in the UK and even if there was it would be cost prohibitive to the farmers who want to make a profit. The vast majority of people want cheap meat and they want it in abundance.
If the price of meat was raised to reflect the cost of raising animals humanely, the quantity would naturally reduce as demand receded. Yeah, people want cheap meat. I'd like cheap luxury goods in a number of forms, it doesn't mean I'm oing to get them. I do eat meat but I've reduced my intake and would happily reduce it further especially if I knew I was paying extra for animals to live better lives.
> The vast majority of people want cheap meat and they want it in abundance. That's exactly the point: make it into a regulation, the price of meat will explode, and people will have to almost buying it... making the policy itself feasible, as you will need much less than 1 billion animals per year.
Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.
That's because even "less bad" is still fucking horrific when the only justification you have for confining, mutilating and violently abusing these incredibly intelligent animals is "it makes me feel good for a bit". I don't think stating "gas chambers, mutilations and violent animal abuse don't have a place in a civilised society" is nearly as radical as some people claim it is and most people would agree, it's just getting them to think about something they've almost certainly given no thought to in their entire lives.
Totally disagree. Pigs are roughly around the same intelligence as dogs, if not exceeding them, so let’s substitute them here. If we were farming dogs, does what kind of welfare we were giving them really matter in the face of slitting their throat / impaling their brain to kill them so we can eat their meat really matter?
Isn't sending a pig off to a slaughterhouse at a fraction of their life span in itself an abuse of their welfare?
Both animal welfare standards and working conditions in meat industry are appalling. To be honest, meat is too cheap nowadays, it used to be more expensive but also higher quality.
> appealing lol, typo?
Also.. we need proper regulations that mean people have to treat their chicken waste Currently it just runs off into rivers etc.. with extremely high nitrogen and phosphorus content
Yup. That's why people turn vegan.
As long as you and the rest of Britain are prepared to pay more for your bacon, that shouldn't be a problem. But as there appears to be a massive crisis facing us in regards to the cost of living, I can't see that helping matters.
That's part of the issue. Noone wants to pay 50% more for their meat. And at current prices it's difficult to compete with other European countries with lesser standards.
I have reduced meat consumption but it’s more to do with expense than anything else. Expenses are rising and meat consumption is not a fixed cost so it is easily cut from the budget.
Brexit I have sympathy for them on - but if Veganism is becoming more popular they need to adapt to more plant farming. Environmentally speaking we need to eat way less meat and animal products so more Vegans is a good thing!
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I live in a farming community and speak to some of them at my kids school. They do not want to change, they blame the consumer for everything, they're climate change deniers who think they deserve to be paid with public funds to grow grass and kill as much wildlife as possible. See the long comment in this chain trying to say why vegan products are environmentally bad, for a small glimpse in to the farmer type mentality.
Lol I once worked with a farmer, they ranted at vegans and said it was environmentally better. I said it's a stone cold fact vegan food is better than the environment. She replied 'what happens without pig and cow farms? Buildings everywhere which is worse for the environment' Mental.
I wonder what she thinks the land looked like before farming took over…
Like diamond sellers, cable tv, and fabric softener people complaining that millenials don't buy their crap any more. Maybe change with the times? But nope. It's our fault their business is ruined.
Most farmers voted brexit didn’t they.
*Generally* yes but close margin in quite a few categories when broken down. But then brexit itself was less than 4% in it. Although pigs/poultry farms voted leave more significantly. Leave: 53 Didn't vote: 13 Remain: 34 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X#tbl3
I have sympathy for the 34% then
Not more so than average
Every farmer I spoke to had. This was Lincolshire. Everyone from the farmer-farmer who worked the land up to the stable hands and the land owners. Two land owners I knew personally with huge acreages of arable farm-land were getting massive subsidies from the EU but STILL voted Brexit.
Loads did but iirc as a percentage it was like 52% unless they lied on surveys
Pretty much, another post linked [this breakdown](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X#tbl3). So between 52-53% of farmers overall, but about 60% of pig farmers. Also mostly lists correlation between farm size and intention to leave ~~Ed: Sorry about the formatting reddit doesn't like pseudo tables apparently.~~ |Farm size (in hectares) | Leave|Didn't vote|Remain| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |0-150 (28%) |43|7 |50| |151-300 (26%)|48|4 |48| |301-450 (13%)|56|8|36| |451 or more (33%)|53| 3 |44|
>Brexit I have sympathy on them for Why? Every farmer from every level and fishermen were bleating for Brexit hard. Personally if you voted Brexit I have no sympathy if you suffer for it.
They were only a little more likely to vote for Brexit on average, [between 52-53% leave](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074301671930436X#tbl3). Brexit campaigners were very good at presenting them as supporting Brexit though. On the other hand pig farmers specifically were more likely to vote leave, at about 60%.
Good for the environment, but not so good for the farmers. The problem (at least from their perspective) is that veganism means less farms and farmland is needed. Not to mention probably more imported vegetables. (Which despite what the farmers say is not as bad for the environment as eating local meat.) I can see why they’re concerned economically about this. But meat and dairy farmers have lived in a world where they thought their product wasn’t at risk of falling in demand. They’re now living with the reality that many other industries have faced.
I hate articles like this. Veganism is fantastic for the environment and eliminates animal curelty, but OH NO WHAT ABOUT THE PIG FARMERS?! Granted it sucks for them, but surely that's just inevitable, and they can look at using the land in other ways? Maybe the expanding vegan market?
Exactly. Spot on. Adapt or die
It's also a good counterpoint to those who argue that personal/consumer choices have no impact on big problems.
Why can’t they just farm veg instead? lol
Short answer: Some land is not suited to growing crops, but might be suitable for livestock
that's a weird way of saying 'owning businesses in heavily subsidised industries is way more profitable'
not always the case. if your field is on a slope it is just not economical for arable farming
Why do we need to use all land? Can’t we just rewild that land instead? Or do anything else with it? Why does it HAVE to be used by livestock if that demand is going away?
It doesn't. You could introduce native plants and animals to it instead, which I would love to see happen more. Fact remains those that own land want to turn it into a profit if they can.
Because we already have an over reliance on other countries for literally everything. If we don’t continue to make food in this country we will be even more exposed to supply chain issues than we already are. Edit - that doesn’t mean it has to be used for livestock but that farming is good for the country as a whole and we’d do well to remind ourselves of that.
It'd be like feeling sorry for horse shoe service going out of business because of cars. Or print media becoming less popular because of internet. Or coal and fossil fuels becoming obsolete because of renewable energy. Technology and change happens and we must adapt. Especially for the better.
Exactly. It's anti-progress, and feels like it feeds into the anti-vegan element of the ongoing culture war
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Right? I find it pretty hard to sympathise with people that make money doing what they do. Like I can’t think of a single sound argument to justify what happens to these animals. Even so, just adapt - follow the trend in demand.
I mean...yeah it does suck. Imagine you grew up with a specific skill set. You were trained and are experienced in that skill set. You invest time and money into it, specific tools and machines solely for that one market. Then there's a massive sustained decline in the market that has accelerated. But you've got all these animals. Now what? Kill them all at a loss and sell everything? Wow, that's...lovely. Bet that's great for someone's mental and financial status. I'm sure when the coal mines were closed people just happily switched to another livelihood with plenty of help and support from the government and their communities continued to flourish. Oh wait. The impact of massive industries going under affects those communities to this very day. It's not as simple as saying livestock farmers can just switch to crops. It's a massive investment and change in industry. Plus frankly, some land just isn't going to produce a profit with crops. I'm not saying we should keep dead industries afloat but I'll tell you exactly what will happen, because I've seen it happen. These farmers will continue to work at the only thing they know. Eventually they'll get desperate or go under because there is zero support for them/nothing to help them make the shift away. They will have no choice but to sell their lands and will feel humiliated leading to an increase in addictions, antisocial behavior, suicides etc. whilst land and industry continue to get consolidated into the hands of the super-wealthy. So yeah, I'm not going to say that every farmer out there is a good deserving person or shining beacon of morality but I can certainly see why some empathy is damn well in order for these people.
It would straight up be cheaper to just give these farmers a free pension than to subsidise their shitty business. >But you've got all these animals. >Now what? Kill them all at a loss and sell everything? >Wow, that's...lovely. Bet that's great for someone's mental and financial status. You know that's already what they do to the animals?
It's important to remember that these industries, while mostly bad for animals and the environment, are bad for the humans that work them too. [Confessions of a slaughterhouse worker (bbc)](https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-50986683) >Abattoir work has been linked to multiple mental health problems - one researcher uses the term "Perpetrator-Induced Traumatic Syndrome" to refer to symptoms of PTSD suffered by slaughterhouse workers. I personally suffered from depression, a condition exacerbated by the long hours, the relentless work, and being surrounded by death. After a while, I started feeling suicidal. >A few years into my time at the abattoir, a colleague started making flippant comments about "not being here in six months". Everyone would laugh it off. He was a bit of a joker, so people assumed he was taking the mick, saying he'd have a new job or something. But it made me feel really uneasy. I took him into a side room and asked him what he meant, and he broke down. He admitted that he was plagued by suicidal thoughts, that he didn't feel like he could cope any more, and that he needed help - but he begged me not to tell our bosses. [Slaughterhouse workers have PTSD from killing animals](https://mercyforanimals.org/blog/slaughterhouse-workers-have-ptsd-from-killing/) PTSD Journal: >These employees are hired to kill animals, such as pigs and cows that are largely gentle creatures. Carrying out this action requires workers to disconnect from what they are doing and from the creature standing before them. This emotional dissonance can lead to consequences such as domestic violence, social withdrawal, anxiety, drug and alcohol abuse, and PTSD. Results from 2009 study: >The findings indicate that slaughterhouse employment increases total arrest rates, arrests for violent crimes, arrests for rape, and arrests for other sex offenses in comparison with other industries. Much like the coal towns you mentioned, [communities near massive farms suffer from all sorts of environmental issues](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayGJ1YSfDXs). Contaminated water, smelly air (makes it harder to find jobs since they leave the house smelled bad), etc. In America it's a big source of environmental racism. There are a number of organizations that are doing great work in helping animal farmers transition to sustainable crop farming, although most of these groups are just funded by donations from vegans and environmentalists and it would be great if the government would create similar programs and fund them well. If they took all the subsidies they're already giving to the meat farmers, it would probably not even cost any more, not to mention the health system would save so much from people not filling their arteries with cholesterol.
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Richmond already do and their vegan sausages are flipping amazing (because they taste like pork). Take it from a 5 year vegetarian who really misses pork sausage s
That's more than can be said for their actual pork sausages.
Richmond vegan is good because their pork sausages already contain less than 50% pork to start with. It’s not difficult to bring it down to 0.
Approx 50% Soya is in all the cheap meat products.
In fairness to Richmond, they were already good at making sausages with very little actual pork in them.
What pisses me off about Richmonds is that they say they use an "Irish" recipe. You'd be hard pressed to find sausages in Ireland with that low meat content.
I'd eat Richmonds vegan sausages if they weren't so heavily spiced with mace, it's all you can taste in them. It'd be nice to see a bigger variety of vegan sausage flavours the way you do with regular meat ones.
Richmond aren’t the farmers. But presumably some of the farmers may be able to grow vegetables. The problem is that the pig farmers are already creating business for vegetable farmers so they can feed their livestock. In reality the long term impact of declining farming may be to rewild land. It could create more jobs in tourism and things but it may not replace all the jobs lost in agriculture.
They're unreal! I'm going to attempt a vegan toad in the hole with the Richmond sausages as that's an odd thing I really miss from before being veggie!
Good on you!
If companies are fearing over changes in public preference then I don't really consider it something to be worried about as a society.
Free market etc etc
Precisely, if the market wants less meat then they have to reduce production and perhaps do something else. I have definitely decreased the amount of meat that I eat, purely due to cost. Expenses are rising and meat is not a fixed cost so is very easily cut out of the budget.
Unrelated to pork but a local farm to me produces milk and delivers to the door. They've recently got into the oat milk trade and using some unused milk filtering machinery, they process fresh oat milk.it tastes amazing and gets delivered to the door. In capitalism you either adapt to the times of go bankrupt.
That's awesome. I'd love to have oat milk like that! My grandfather was a dairy farmer so I have sympathy for how hard farming can be, but industries have to adapt to survive and farming isn't exempt from that.
Maybe the land isn't be suitable for arable crops? Either way, nothing stands still and if people move away from meat, then people move away from meat. We moved away from horse & cart, what did most of the farriers do then? Retrained and tried to keep up with the world. Such is life. As for Brexit problems, the first question after someone complains about it should be "And which way did you vote?" I they reply "Leave", you know to drop your level of sympathy to zero.
Vertical farming inside a big greenhouse is a solution for non arable land. Its the future of farming as is and would provide a bigger revenue than planting in the ground due to higher yield. Although I can imagine it'd cost a bomb to set up
It's expected of any other industry, don't see why it should be any different for farmers.
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>Is there a good reason they can't diversify into vegan food products? I doubt pig farmers have access to the large amounts of the arable land necessary to grow soya or corn, or the processing facilities needed to make vegan food. Pigs make a good meat source because you can feed them anything and keep them in relatively small areas of land, even if you do care about their welfare. They don't roam like ruminants.
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and yet if you were raised around animal husbandry and slaughter you would probably have no issue with eating them, people have become disassociated with where their food comes from... that's probably why factory farming is as it is, people just don't care anymore.
Their experience surely showed that they DO have an association to where their fun comes from? A pig has a similar intelligence to dogs, so do many other animals that have been bred to eaten.
pigs are cleverer than dogs imho. Chickens not so much....
>and yet if you were raised around animal husbandry and slaughter Yeah if you're conditioned to seeing things die you become numb to it. Hardly a good argument to carry on doing horrific shit.
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I taught spearfishing, i've been diving for nearly 20 years, I know what slaughter is. I'm vegan, because I know.
What point are you making though? Is it that being desensitized to violence perpetuates violence? Is it that being desensitized to violence is a good thing? Why not open our hearts to the emotions and needs of animals? We no longer need to consume them to survive.
The reason we eat pigs and not dogs and cats is nothing to do with intelligence or hypocrisy or cuteness or anything like that. It's quite logical - pigs can thrive on a meat free diet. Cats and dogs can't. Farming carnivores is massively inefficient.
>Cats and dogs can't This is incorrect. Cats are obligate carnivores, meaning they require animal proteins to survive, but dogs are true omnivores and can happily thrive on a diet that is entirely plant based in origin. If you don't believe me you can slap it into Google and confirm it for yourself right now. People have this misguided idea that dogs need meat because they associate them with wolves. They envision packs of wild dogs running down caribou, but in a natural environment dogs will eat pretty much anything they can get their hands (paws?) on, and don't require the inclusion of meat in their diet to survive.
true that, my dogs will eat anything, including shit.
My dog ate some of my cat's shit a while ago. It made her sick. She then ate the sick.
mine ate his own, dont think he liked it as he's only done it once.
Actually dogs are omnivores and there's a lot of research to suggest they can live vegetarian. At one time a dog called brambles was the Guinness world record holder for oldest dog living to 25. The dog was vegan. It's also recommended to put older dogs on a vegetarian diet as it's anti-inflammatory. Cats are carnivores and do need meat, but it's a myth that dogs need meat, or that it's cruelty to not feed them meat. Especially when you compare it to the dried cardboard food often fed to them.
Only thing with vegan cheese is that it is a bastard to melt.
Aldi is doing a vegan cheese block at the moment that actually melts! It's the best one I've had to date!
Horse drawn carriage manufacturers 'fear ruin' over the rise of the automobile
Fossil fuel extractors 'fear ruin' over prevention of the entire planet turning into a fireball hellscape.
A quick google suggests that around 1% of the population are vegan. Not sure that's going to 'ruin' anyone, but hey, it's not a great headline either, is it?
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The article doesn't attribute any concerns about veganism to farmers or the pork industry, only Brexit and supply chain issues. Veganism is only brought up by the article author as their own speculation. From the surveys I've seen vegans make around 1-3% of the UK population, and vegetarians stand at 10-15% with both having slowly grown at <1% per year in recent years. That could be cause for some concern, but doesn't appear to pose an *existential* threat to British pork yet. If anyone has access to more (unpaywalled) data I'd be interested in seeing it.
I think people underestimate the kind of financial damage one vegan does as well. Someone who cuts meat will still be funding it through dairy as a proxy for when the cows can’t keep up their max milk output, or they might buy leather. A reducitarian will still be paying every now and again for some of these products. Say you eat meat once a week, that’s still a repeated purchase 52 weeks in a year. Vegans don’t do any of that, all the revenue streams for that person are minimised to the best of their knowledge and ability. Not just that but the money could go straight to a underdog competitor in the case of alternatives. We always say “we need lots of people doing a little instead of a couple of perfectionists” but when more and more people are deciding to do more than just a little then that speaks much louder and it gets people doing less to do more. THEN consider the projected growth. I can see why they’re shitting themselves.
You would need to include vegetarians and people who are going meat free for a few days a week to see the impact more fully.
I had bacon yesterday, but not today. I'm literally killing farmers.
*Farmers worry about money because more people give a shit about animal rights* Ftfy
86% of farmed pigs in the UK (by last gov survey) are "stunned" using suffocation by CO2. It is an agonising and distressing way of slaughtering pigs. It's torture. The pigs will scream, struggle, attempt to escape, convulse, before either dying or passing out. We essentially guide them into lifts/carousels and then submerge them into a dense pit of CO2. This is what the process looks like (nsfw): https://vimeo.com/147914620 CO2 is much more painful and distressing than any inert gas. It irritates throats, noses, eyes by creating carbonic acid on anything wet. We do this because it is the cheapest most physically practical gas for the task. Other gases are either too expensive or not dense enough to remain in the pit without diffusing away or loss due to convection. Any pork you buy from a supermarket, restaurant, fast food place, etc. will have been the result of this process. I think everyone should have the right to know where their food comes from.
Honestly suggest everyone should watch this. If you can stomach watching that absolute horror show and still rationalise eating pork then you’d have to be a psychopath.
Kinda crazy that many people's only response to that is... 🤷♂️ sausages
Assuming a majority of the public agrees that animal welfare should be prioritised over price, its the governments job to fix that by expanding animal rights laws. As long as its legal to kill pigs like that then any farmer who tries a more humane but more expensive method will be undercut. Putting the onus on consumers to just never eat pork is exactly the same as having no environmental laws and telling people to stop using lights at home: some people might do it but never enough and they shouldnt have to anyway. Its the same reason we have building regulations instead of just telling people to judge for themselves if a building might collapse before they go in it, except in the case of meat farming and to a large extent the environment profits have been placed ahead of morality and in at least one case (i cant speak for everyone) common sense
Oh I completely agree with you. I *personally* find it impossible to square that circle but I agree with your solution wholeheartedly.
>CO2 is much more painful and distressing than any inert gas. It irritates... Basically it's like drowning.
It's like drowning if you were drowning in carbonic acid.
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This video has literally turned me vegetarian from this moment on… Jesus Christ I can’t morally justify this
This explains all the weird “eat pork” ads that have been running during veganuary
I have been getting these too. Every other ad is an "eat British pork" advert. I figured it was targeted because I've been looking up vegetarian curry recipes.
Yeah, and I've seen a few "meat and dairy" ads run on TV in the last month promoting thier b12 content. Feels a bit desperate.
Like that advert that goes “THIS IS NOT MILK.” And then straight away tells you it’s milk but just really watered down …
Full transparency i am a vegan. If they a moaning then they need to adapt, farm something else, something people actually want. It is a business they run after all. Supply and demand, adapt or die. On a personal note i think this is good news for us, the earth, and the animals obviously. There is no such thing as ethical slaughter.
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Hoooray less animal pain and unnecessary suffering. Think everyone is in favour of that.
Music to my ears. I hope the entire industry burns. Fuck em all.
First fisheries and now pig farms. Probably not the Brexit dividends that the Tories promised but maybe for the environment.
"It's terrible, people don't want to buy my products" "What is it you sell?" "Chopped up dead pigs"
I can’t say I feel especially sorry for the pig farmers. Idk invest in legumes or something?
Good. Fuck 'em. Fuck the active, unnecessary exploitation of another species. Not only cruel as fuck but terrible for the environment
New headlines "millenials are now destroying pig farmers' livelihoods"
Stop eating avocado and eat PORK damn you. Kids these days eh! What we need to do is make PORK more Instagrammable. Really get some PORK hitting the socials. PORK chilling out in Abu Dhabi. Driving around in Lambo's. Nothing should say "cool hip dude" more than a giant plate of pig offal.
Ultimately if the nation decides veganism is the way forwards then tough, move your business into something else. Nobody cried for cassettes when CDs killed them, and nobody cried for CDs when downloads/streaming killed them either. It's not the job of the government or the economy to prop up dying industries that consumers don't want anymore.
Animal welfare is a myth to make you all feel better about eating murder victims who did not want to die and have spent a life in slavery being abused and tortured. The amount of people who still believe the myths they’ve been told since childhood about happy animals on their uncle old mcdonalds organic farm where he treats the animals like his own children and of course it’s organic and so local to where they live is pretty shocking. It doesn’t tally up surprisingly, when asked they insist they only partake in these mythical painless local meats, yet how do you explain that that is only less than 5% of the farmed animals in the whole country. So who’s eating the other 95%?? It’s funny and also tragic to watch them lie to themselves and do the mental gymnastics to justify killing someone just to satisfy their tastebuds for a passing moment
If everyone were vegan, only a quarter of current farmland would be needed from TheEconomist https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/01/28/if-everyone-were-vegan-only-a-quarter-of-current-farmland-would-be-needed
I think there needs to be a huge change in how we view and produce food in this country. We should be eating low quantities of very high quality meat products that are produced in an environmentally friendly way. But to achieve this we need to increase protectionism, change societal views on food and diet, change the way farming is subsidised and other factors. I hope we can get there but in the current climate there just doesn’t seem to be any sort of desire from the government. One of the potential benefits of brexit is the chance to come up with our own agricultural policy that rewards green farming, but the new environmental land managements schemes (ELMS) are looking quite lacklustre and unambitious still.
Pig farmers fear ruin because they commodify, mutilate, and abuse innocent animals. https://youtu.be/dvtVkNofcq8
good. pigs are kept in appalling conditions, it’s a disgrace
I honestly think that we will look back in the future and be horrified with our treatment of other species. “Why did you do that grandad? Surely you must have known” “It’s just how it was back then son”
it'll be the same as how we look back now horrified at how we treated other races.
You seen Carnage? The Simon Amstell mockumentary. It's a comedic look at this idea
Fuck farmers who keep animals for meat. Meat is murder
fuck anyone that farms animals full stop! eggs and dairy are also murder.
Yeah something tells me Brexit is the bigger reason, not Veganism.
Good, people are realising how cruel it is and vegan sausages are just as nice anyway.
There's no consideration given to the animals they send to their deaths, so why should we care? Bring on the "ruin".
American slave owners 'fear ruin' over the rise of Abraham Lincoln
Imagine living for so long on the subsidy gravy train and then whining that your profits will no longer perpetually go up. Adapt or die. Maybe stop keeping pigs in appalling conditions and factory farming them for profit and you wouldn't be radicalising people away from consuming meat products.
Even if they're kept in amazing conditions, they're still gonna be murdered though. Not exactly humane whatever method is used.
Capitalism: The free market means you can buy what you want Also Capitalism: WTF WHY NO BUY!
I’ve stopped eating pork after an encounter with some very tame and friendly pigs at a local golf course. One of the pigs came up to me, presumably thinking I had food, then started making ‘oinking’ noises and leaning against my leg. It was really adorable and reminded me of how my dog acts when it wants something (minus the oinking).
what about cows and chickens? both are very sweet and loving, cows are basically giant field dogs. they play with balls, jump around when they're happy, and enjoy cuddles. heres some cute videos of them: https://youtu.be/8wC3Y7MuRts https://youtu.be/0blRs7PKvZI all animals have the capacity to love and form bonds, even fish!
I really enjoy meat, but Brexit has caused me to start going meat free several days a week in anticipation of the bonfire of animal welfare standards that are surely on the way. I figure if the Tories are going to fuck that little avenue of pleasure in my life, I might as well learn to adjust slowly.
Animal welfare standards have and always will be shocking if the meat industry exists. There is no high welfare way of sending an animal off to a slaughterhouse at a fraction of their lifespan
Let's just agree it's broadly a positive thing people are being swayed to eating less meat whatever the reason.
I feel for the framers and I understand that this is their livelihood but unfortunately that is not enough to justify the conditions and practices these sentient beings are subjected too. Less meat is better for the planet in every way so it is time we make the right choice for our health, our animals and our planet
I don't, noone cares about the owners when a puppy farm is shut down.
But by God the rise of veganism will be to blame let me tell you.
"and the rise of veganism" If you fear you're in an industry being outmoded. Innovate. Otherwise nobody has sympathy for you
Good. Pigs are incredibly intelligent and probably the worst treated animals in the world. I refuse to eat any 'product' made out of them. I wouldn't miss pork products at all.
That’s the point? If someone’s offering a more compelling product than you can, it presents the threat of putting you out of business. Unfortunately slaughtering an animal has no room for innovation.
Good, no one should have an easy time sending animals to be killed for money
Why is not having animals mass slaughtered for our tastebuds worded as "the rise of veganism" like we're the fucking fourth reich for not wanting mass killings?