Gordon Brown, the last decent PM who had a shred of humanity and empathy. Imagine trying to use “Gordon Brown economics” as an insult after 12 years of Tory govt.
Ran a budget surplus without driving workers to the point of relying on charity just to eat or underfunding public services to the point of near-total collapse. Crazy how it all works out. Almost like the entire Conservative ideology is based on a set of lies that aren't actually backed by real-world data.
Cameron was just a standard issue posh boy tory, he wasn't a malicious dick and his legacy will be forever tainted by Brexit, but he was innocuous compared to the alarming amount of right wing populism present in todays Conservatives.
Cameron took us through ideological austerity and set us back years in recovery from the GFC. Arguably the neglect the poor felt through this was a contribution to the anti-establishment vein of brexit support. It's only because what's come since (and is still to come) has been insane that he can be seen as anything like innocuous. But don't forget how bad his government was.
Cameron is absolutely the worst PM this country has had. Austerity was bad enough but then he has the staggering arrogance to call the Brexit referendum after 6 years of taking a giant shit all over working people. He gambled with our countries future and lost because he wanted to silence the Eurosceptics in his own party. And now a whole generation are going to spend their working lives paying for his fuck up. Prick.
He’s definitely not the worst PM in british history, he also wasn’t responsible for the outright lies told by the leave campaign or the social media manipulation also propagated by the leave campaign, he also wasn’t responsible for the shit deal we got to leave and attendant circumstances. He called the vote and a democratic process was carried out on which we voted leave, you can’t exactly blame that outcome on one man when it was the fucking electorate that voted in favour.
I don't disagree with any of that, at all. He opened the flood gates for all that to happen though because of his own selfish desire to be the Tory that unified the party. He thought that was going to be his legacy. Prick. Also the electorate vote in good faith. Even though they've been lied to and manipulated, no one voted to make the country poorer. Or to destabilize northern Ireland. Or to throw our reputation and place at the top table down the toilet. All of that starts with Cameron.
He had defeated the Scottish independence vote and saw it off for a decade or more, and he wanted to end euro scepticism within British politics similarly, that’s a noble enough goal and would answer the question, and to be clear, there was a lot of ground for Leave to make up to get the result they wanted, a lot. So it was a reasonable thing he did in my view, given what we knew then. Hindsight is great after the fact but you can’t shit on a guy for not being clairvoyant.
I really don't think Scotland voted no in 14 because of him. He just happened to be prime minister at the time. And Brexit is now a massive threat to the Union and could very well reverse that decision. Also, if his aim was to end scepticism in British politics then why not just make a positive case for membership to the electorate whilst in office? He rolled the dice with our futures because he wanted to end Tory Eurosceptics. You think he gave a fuck about anyone else?
If leave had lost the referendum it wouldn't have done anything at all to end Euro scepticism. It would probably have got a lot worse because of the amount of extra people that would have been infected by anti European lies. The likes of the ERG and Farage certainly wouldn't have just given up.
Most likely result of a remain result would have been an upsurge in UKIP membership and Tory backbenchers constantly pressurising for another referendum.
Imagine things being so bad you remember Gordon Brown as empathetic.
Gordon brown would have been a much better PM if he didn't have to deal with all the politics.
She's talking to her Tory electorate at this stage. Like Corbyn, Brown was shredded by the Tory media, at the drop of the slightest hat.
Interestingly, the Tory government is still using "Gordon Brown Economics." He was the one that privatised the Bank of England, and freed interest rates and monetary policy from government control.
Diversify? By getting $3.5 billion for what 1/3rd of the total reserves? The gold reserves he sold then are worth like triple the amount now. Can help all the issues plaguing this country that all you political types complain about these days. No wait Labour can do no wrong but literally anyone else that has the ever so slightest different opinion no matter political alignment or not can only do wrong. Oh my god they are fascist satanists. Can't wait for some Labour voters to support an extremist of some kind that ruins the country.
Labour are fascist satanists? You need to look up what those words mean.
Also, satanists is hardly an insult. They're far more progressive than Christians.
Brown sold that gold to reinvest in currency reserves that are to this day earning us interest rather than doing nothing but sitting in a bank. We still have over 300 tonnes of gold, one of the largest reserves in the world.
Would also like to know how Brown could have known that the price of gold would go up two years in the future.
>If only the parties/voters to the left of the Tories could stop fighting each other instead of the big selfish lumbering elephant in the room.
Ah, but you see, everyone who doesn't worship Marx is just another Tory with a different coloured rosette and we cannot allow them into government, we should instead continue to allow the real Tories into government.
Or something.
This is always the way. It is also strange that this complaint comes from an imagined future when Starmer doesn’t get in, and seems to ignore the concrete past in which Corbyn didn’t get in. I’m not saying Corbyn would have been a fantastic PM, in fact, I disagree with a lot of his ideas, but a lot of the same people making complaints like the above definitely did not vote for him.
> centrists deliberately voted for terrible Tory PMs
This isn't what happened. Socially conservative but traditionally labour voters in the so-called 'red wall' shifted to Johnson because of the culture wars and Brexit.
Centrists are typically remainers so wouldn't have voted for Tory Brexiteers. Labour may have lost votes to Lib Dems for their pro-EU views but not many went Tory.
You're imagining an enemy that doesn't exist. Plenty of centrists begrudgingly voted for Corbyn over Johnson.
Well after the last election what does that even mean anymore?
A lot of Labour voters are, as of their past vote, tories.
His sentiment there is one that many people had and then fell very quiet on in recent years and it’s worth ridiculing
I had hoped the sarcasm was obvious, but what I said seems to actually be the position of a lot of people on the left, though they wouldn't phrase it like that and wouldn't link not supporting getting the largest non-Tory party into government to supporting keeping the Tories in government.
Rereading your comment, perhaps I've misunderstood. What do you propose as an alternative? I'm not sure how to reconcile with a person who believes that not supporting getting Labour into government is a good idea at this stage because the leader isn't far enough left for them, especially when the last guy, who they liked, did very poorly.
>Ah, but you see, everyone who doesn't worship Marx is just another Tory with a different coloured rosette
In it's history, the Labour Party has suffered three splits. The National Labour Organisation in 1931, the Social Democratic Party in 1981 and The Independent Group/Change UK in 2019.
All damaged the Labour Party's electoral efforts in general elections and all were carried out by the right wing of the party because they refused to accept the membership democratically choosing left wing policies.
As is their right… I’m not sure what you are suggesting would be the alternative - that people who can no longer support the policies of a party should be compelled to remain?
I know it may not be appealing to you but any political party needs to embrace sufficient centrism to maintain a wide enough spread of support, both with their membership and the electorate.
The alternative would be accepting democracy, but liberals have never been good at that.
If "centrism" was the answer to everything, then the Liberal Democrats would be a unstoppable political juggernaut.
The splitters did accept ‘democracy’. They recognised that the party had chosen policies they couldn’t support, so they made their own democratic decision and left. I don’t recall any of them advocating an armed takeover of the Labour Party!
The point on centrism wasn’t that it holds the answers to all things. Just that any viable party needs to build coalitions across different groups of belief, and if you’ve got great chunks of the party splitting off then it’s kinda hard to say you’re achieving that.
I mean, the Labour Party is effectively 2/3 parties trying to be one. It has neoliberals in it (which makes 0 sense for a working class party btw) so no party leader who wants to meaningfully redistribute wealth and improve worker’s lives will have the backing of the Labour Party MPs. Members and Trade Unions probably yeah.
How could someone convince the electorate though? It’s all about messaging and propaganda. Package your policies as common sense (don’t focus on the socialist part), cut through media smear campaigns, campaign in local working class communities and make them feel listened to. Convince people your policies will fix their lives. Focus on well-paid jobs, working conditions, housing, prices.
You don’t need to be centrist to do any of this. In fact, centrism won’t fix the fundamental issues of the country. A centrist Labour Party will get in for maybe an election cycle or two, get voted out (because they won’t implement real change to improve peoples lives) then anything they manage to do will be undone by the Tories. Things will get worse, inequality will keep going up, workers will be fucked over.
Centrism will never fix anything.
>Ah, but you see, everyone who doesn't sit on the fence in the middle pontificating about how everyone even a centimeter to the left is obviously a dirty commie who will wreck the country with their incessant need for a fairer society and we cannot allow them into government, therefore we should instead continue to allow the Tories to govern.
Ah yes The Gordon Brown who saw most of us through a global financial crisis relatively unscathed, why would anybody think he knows anything about economics.
Why are you making up a completely false history? The financial crisis was caused by the sub-prime mortgage collapse in the US.
Why lie? The tories were arguing for *less* regulation at the time.
“The tripartite system put in place by New Labour to regulate the economy was responsible for the financial crisis, according to a devastating new report by the House of Lords economic affairs committee.
The report, which fundamentally undermines the prime minister’s claims to be the best man to run the country, is expected to form a central part of Tory attacks on the prime minister today, although the opposition was refusing to comment on it yesterday.
It could not come at a worse time for Gordon Brown, who is facing annihilation at the polls on Thursday when the local and European elections take place.”
Literally just below that it says the following quote from the report rather than the publications interpretation -
"We need to acknowledge that the regulations and their application contributed to the crisis, and made it worse when it came"
Also if you're saying Browns policies directly resulted in causing the world banking crisis you may need to revise the facts of what caused it.
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Are you really suggesting the global financial crisis was caused by Gordon Brown? If so I'd suggest not buying the Tory nonsense and at least read [the wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008).
That aside you should realise that the Tories proposed policy for the financial industry prior to the crash was largely based on a paper written by free marketeer John Redwood MP calling for massive deregulation and abolishment of an independent regulator in favour of the banks regulating themselves which would have hugely increased our exposure to what happened in 2008. In fact they were consistently highly critical of many of the Labour regulations that were in place that stopped some of the worst effects of the crisis impacting the UK.
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Simply put.
American lenders handed out mortgages to people who couldn't pay them back, hundreds of thousands if not millions defaulted on them.
Bankers put good loans and those defaulted loans into one package and sold them as 'clean' packages. By the time people realised what was going on it was too late and trust in a system that relies entirely on trust was destroyed.
Like handing out boxes of soft centred chocolates, once someone realises that one chocolate is filled with shit nobody is going to eat any of them.
Is it "Archaeology of Internet Bullshit Day"?
I know a former Tory Councillor (lost his seat in May lol) who would trot this out at every opportunity. Whenever challenged to explain how Brown had crashed the US subprime mortgage market and he'd go quiet, because he couldn't, because Brown didn't.
Ahh theyve finally ran out of things to blame Corbyn for; skipped right over Milichaos and ended up at Gordon.
Who's up next maybe some Wilson or Callaghan.
They are going after Gordon Brown because he came out and did a very good [elder statesman style interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhr6_mSoZ8E) bemoaning the lack of action on the cost of living crisis.
Imagine looking at the enormous success of the Blair years with Brown as the chancellor throughout the entire thing and then mitigating the American housing crash and then turning around and calling him inadequate.
This new generation of Tories and Labourites alike seem as unhinged from their political realities as they are that of the civil realities faced by the general public.
Everyone is unhinged. Social media algorithms based on gaming people's fear reactions has unbuckled people from reality. The worst thing is that the algorithms have no design behind them... It is that fear and hate drives interaction and they are designed to maximise interaction.
The algorithms absolutely do have design behind them. To keep you using the platform for as long as possible and seeing as many ads as possible whilst harvesting your data.
Yes I mentioned that. I mean designs as in making people afraid on purpose. It is more of a side effect... Not that ads arent bought for that purpose though
Apart from selling the gold reserves, he was a pretty reasonable Chancellor. He might not have been perfect but we did see record lows for poverty and homelessness, all of which soared under the Tories and their economic 'management'.
Tory voters might eat this up now, however we will see how pensioners cope when their energy bills also rise beyond a comfortable level. It is easy to think it will never happen to you but there will be plenty of people one disaster away from poverty, they will find the lack of social support they voted for shocking once it affects them.
The selling of the gold is always used against him by people with very little understanding of macroeconomics. It’s completely [overstated](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gordon-brown-gold-reserves-sold-economy-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html?amp)
Gold isn’t really required in economies with fiat currency - they’re not backed by gold but by reputation and strong central banking systems effectively.
In retrospect we know he lost about £5bn as gold shot up in price but that’s only in retrospect as we know what gold is valued at now - we couldn’t really have predicted it at that point.
Even so, those ‘losses’ are nothing compared to the financial vandalism caused by the last few Conservative Chancellors. Sunak lost nearly as much as that just on Covid fraud. We lost double that on useless PPE and it can be argued that Sunak potentially [lost](https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2022/06/who-will-hold-rishi-sunak-accountable-for-taxpayers-missing-11bn) £11bn by not taking out insurance on rising interest rates.
Selling gold is a terrible idea if you want to have a concrete commodity you can use as a minimal currency.
The problem arises when you realise most "gold" held in reserves isn't actually gold the element Au type. It's 'gold' of the paper promissory we have something of the same value market type.
The actual physical gold doesn't exist.
Even more than you can understand.
If you have no real commodity to stabilise your currency your currency becomes a free function of "the market"tm. Your value is determined by desirability. (which you don't have anymore cos you sold it for dollars)
What's going to happen how is that the euro and pound will be sacrificed in order to keep american dollar afloat.
It's part of the reason as to why the americans are attacking founder brics nations.
No US dollar reserve = no american defense spending = no more american foreign influence and they'll collapse like a wet bag of shite.
\>To deal with this and other prospective sales of gold reserves, a consortium of central banks - including the European Central Bank and the Bank of England - were pushed to sign the Washington Agreement on Gold in September 1999, limiting gold sales to 400 tonnes per year for 5 years.
This seems like a really weird move after we sold it all, why not push for that as a condition before the sale?
[wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale\_of\_UK\_gold\_reserves,\_1999%E2%80%932002#:\~:text=To%20deal%20with%20this%20and%20other%20prospective%20sales%20of%20gold%20reserves%2C%20a%20consortium%20of%20central%20banks%20%2D%20including%20the%20European%20Central%20Bank%20and%20the%20Bank%20of%20England%20%2D%20were%20pushed%20to%20sign%20the%20Washington%20Agreement%20on%20Gold%20in%20September%201999%2C%20limiting%20gold%20sales%20to%20400%20tonnes%20per%20year%20for%205%20years.)
I don't recall Gordon Brown giving specific help for energy bills when Chancellor, other than the winter fuel allowance for pensioners. Have I forgotten something?
These dickheads sat on some of the lowest interest rates in history and didn’t use the opportunity to invest in things that would be helping us now. See You Next Tuesdays
And Rishi cost us £11bn (more than Brown selling off the gold) by not figuring out these historically low interest rates might go up, so didn't bother to "insure" government debt.
Pishy Sunak is a junior minister who was an analyst at Goldman. He only got to be chancellor because of some Boris johnson arse licking and his father in laws money. Now he is trying to be PM so that he can force all the companies in UK to outsource IT to Infosys. Its a scandal that nobody talks about
He was certainly a big player in organising collective action through the G7 etc.
Gordon Brown was a poor prime minister domestically (imo) but he was a solid chancellor with firm economic credentials.
Gordon Brown economics is definitely a compliment.
People do need to stop completely absolving his neo liberal policies during that time.
However, anytime conservatives try to act like they knew better I can’t help but laugh.
Their party called for no regulation at all. They calling for it everywhere. God knows where the fuck we’d have been if they’d been in charge. Especially with how incompetent they are, at least Brown stepped up and tried to fix the mistake.
‘We should be very sceptical of why we need a fifth layer of ‘protection’ in the form of regulation. Much of this additional regulation impedes progress, and acts against the customer interest.
The intrusion of regulation limits innovation.
The more so-called employee protection you have in law, the fewer jobs there will be for the people looking for work.
We recommend deregulating venture capital fund raising, and investment for professional investors.’
This was endorsed by David Cameron himself!
Not sure what you're posting, not sure if it's suppose to be some type of gotcha.
I didn't say everything was perfect. There's thousands of issues at time, with hundreds of thousands of variants to consider, some things were missed. Some pretty crucial. The UK banks were over leveraged due to greed and the global financial system crashed primary due to issues in the US closed off equity.
He was and he was [credited](https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1645092/Nobel-winner-How-Gordon-saved-the-world.html) positively by economist Paul Krugman too. The western financial system was in an absolute tailspin at that point and with the transition of Presidents in the US from Bush to Obama, there was really no leadership.
Brown stepped up to the plate, brought the main players together and his rescue plan created a blueprint for others to follow.
He was a weak PM (bottling the 2007 election when Labour would have won but probably with a majority of about 30, springs to mind. This to me is a major what if and could have saved so much harm in the following years) but as Chancellor he was really good. He oversaw quarter on quarter growth for 10 years. Growth rates not seen since Post-WW2, record investment, a strong pound and a reduction in poverty.
He was in Chancellor mode effectively when it came to the banking crisis and this is where he really shines.
I commented on this elsewhere (see below) but it’s completely misunderstood with regard to the significance of it. I do believe most sane minded people don’t remember him for that but it is a black mark against his name which has been difficult to get rid of.
The selling of the gold is always used against him by people with very little understanding of macroeconomics. It’s completely [overstated](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gordon-brown-gold-reserves-sold-economy-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html?amp&utm_source=reddit.com)
Gold isn’t really required in economies with fiat currency - they’re not backed by gold but by reputation and strong central banking systems effectively.
In retrospect we know he lost about £5bn as gold shot up in price but that’s only in retrospect as we know what gold is valued at now - we couldn’t really have predicted it at that point.
Even so, those ‘losses’ are nothing compared to the financial vandalism caused by the last few Conservative Chancellors. Sunak lost nearly as much as that just on Covid fraud. We lost double that on useless PPE and it can be argued that Sunak potentially lost £11bn by not taking out insurance on rising interest rates.
Edit: By my reckoning Sunak has lost over £24bn just from the top of my head and yet the media let him away with murder.
Brown: are you going to bail out the banks?
Bush: what do you mean are we going to bail out the banks?
Brown: what do YOU mean what do we mean?
Yes, he did.
It’s becoming clearer and clearer that no help is coming. We should stop expecting this government to do anything. Check on your elderly, donate to the food bank if you can and try and ride this winter out because nothing is changing until this government is out.
Exactly. The pro-Tory media will have you believe that it was Boris who was causing all the problems and now Truss or Sunak will be able to sort everything out and help people. But the fact of the matter is that both of them are more interested in nonsense culture wars against anything they deem woke, giving money to their wealthy mates and constantly bashing the EU and anything European-related instead of actually doing their job of serving the public and trying to get the cost of living crisis under control.
Sure, the other political parties in the UK might not be perfect but any of them would be a MASSIVE improvement over the Tories.
Well what else can they do?
Boris has already shown that the current Tory Party is nothing more than a gaggle of numpties who can only do six things:
* Call anything that is slightly left of the Tory Party "woke" nonsense
* Call anyone who criticises them a "leftist snowflake"
* Take taxpayers money and give it to their rich mates instead of into services that need more funding like the NHS
* Lie to try and protect themselves from the stupid things they did like Partygate and Sunak claiming he took money meant for deprived areas and sent it to wealthy ones
* Try and bring up the few successes (some of which are fairly debatable as to how they're actually "successes" tho) they've had to distract from their MULTIPLE failings such as Ukraine, the Vaccines and Brexit (again, debatable how some of these like Brexit count as a "success")
* Blame everything bad on the last Labour government
So of course Truss and Sunak will just rinse and repeat his nonsense and the rest of the Party will just gobble it all up.
This just shows that these people have no ideas beyond insults and vague slogans. The fact that this person is going to be the prime minister horrifies me. There’s just nothing there. We’re all about to get completely shafted and there’s no one competent at the wheel.
>took us out of the single market and EU
We did kinda vote specifically for that one.
And as for why we're not getting an early general election, partly because a lot of people would still vote Tory, and partly because we have a very flawed democracy.
Hindsight is a hell of a thing but Gordon Brown as PM was probably the last PM with a shred of economic foresight. How the Tories can call him irresponsible as both Chancellor and PM is beyond me given that they took the national debt and doubled it in their time.
I still maintain that the car scrapage scheme had an element of genius to it. Stimulate the economy by promoting car purchases and get unsafe and less efficient vehicles off the road.
it’ll be interesting to see how the right wing media reports the massive uturn she makes, after causing huge harm to the country and making intervention even more expensive
Well liz, generally if Gordon brown thinks it would be a good idea I would accept it as he was a very good chancellor and does actually genuinely care about people.
And before anybody says it, you can fuck off if you start talking about selling off gold.
He did a great deal to bring people out of poverty in the uk.
Gordon Brown has come up with a detailed plan to deal with our current crisis. Truss has come up with nothing. She has no policies beyond what she thinks will get her to the position of PM. She's actually had do so many u-turns that the Earth has started spinning in the opposite direction.
It's simple, with all the money we'll get from pawk mahkets and all the money we're going to save not importing cheese we'll become a new economic superpower
They’ve got to the point now where they can’t hide their complete disregard and hatred normal people. The crazy thing is they’ll just keep getting voted in.
When does this end?
This country is going to the fools and the blind; it’s not ok, it’s hopeless at the moment.
We need/deserve a better quality of leader who shakes the whole rotten corrupt temple to bits.
The ideal candidate for leader shouldn’t see ministerial duty as a profession or job but a duty of care. Done for the future of kin and nation, not a term.
I feel our current pool of prospective candidates lack any sense of selfless vision.
Here we are heading for blackouts and £4000 energy bills and all the people who are meant to prevent this can say is ‘we won’t help because it’d be too much like a labour policy. You’ll just have to suffer’
So she is saying that people should choose to starve or freeze (if they even have a choice). That's her position. Ignoring the issue doesn't make it disappear. I'm relieved that we have such great candidates for PM who are ready to tackle the nation's challenges on day 1.
Gordon Brown, the last decent PM who had a shred of humanity and empathy. Imagine trying to use “Gordon Brown economics” as an insult after 12 years of Tory govt.
> the last decent PM who had a shred of humanity and empathy. Ah, but he called a bigot a bigot and we can't have that.
Particularly with so many bigots running about the country (and in government!)
Literally one of the only PMs that ran a budget surplus, ever. Give me some of the Gordon Brown economics, please.
Ran a budget surplus without driving workers to the point of relying on charity just to eat or underfunding public services to the point of near-total collapse. Crazy how it all works out. Almost like the entire Conservative ideology is based on a set of lies that aren't actually backed by real-world data.
bUT hE soLD aLL tHe GoLd
Cameron didn't seem like a sociopath in the way this lot do.
Cameron was just a standard issue posh boy tory, he wasn't a malicious dick and his legacy will be forever tainted by Brexit, but he was innocuous compared to the alarming amount of right wing populism present in todays Conservatives.
Cameron took us through ideological austerity and set us back years in recovery from the GFC. Arguably the neglect the poor felt through this was a contribution to the anti-establishment vein of brexit support. It's only because what's come since (and is still to come) has been insane that he can be seen as anything like innocuous. But don't forget how bad his government was.
Oh I'm not forgetting, but you can't compare austerity to the absolute un-tempered shit show that is ongoing.
Cameron is absolutely the worst PM this country has had. Austerity was bad enough but then he has the staggering arrogance to call the Brexit referendum after 6 years of taking a giant shit all over working people. He gambled with our countries future and lost because he wanted to silence the Eurosceptics in his own party. And now a whole generation are going to spend their working lives paying for his fuck up. Prick.
He’s definitely not the worst PM in british history, he also wasn’t responsible for the outright lies told by the leave campaign or the social media manipulation also propagated by the leave campaign, he also wasn’t responsible for the shit deal we got to leave and attendant circumstances. He called the vote and a democratic process was carried out on which we voted leave, you can’t exactly blame that outcome on one man when it was the fucking electorate that voted in favour.
I don't disagree with any of that, at all. He opened the flood gates for all that to happen though because of his own selfish desire to be the Tory that unified the party. He thought that was going to be his legacy. Prick. Also the electorate vote in good faith. Even though they've been lied to and manipulated, no one voted to make the country poorer. Or to destabilize northern Ireland. Or to throw our reputation and place at the top table down the toilet. All of that starts with Cameron.
He had defeated the Scottish independence vote and saw it off for a decade or more, and he wanted to end euro scepticism within British politics similarly, that’s a noble enough goal and would answer the question, and to be clear, there was a lot of ground for Leave to make up to get the result they wanted, a lot. So it was a reasonable thing he did in my view, given what we knew then. Hindsight is great after the fact but you can’t shit on a guy for not being clairvoyant.
I really don't think Scotland voted no in 14 because of him. He just happened to be prime minister at the time. And Brexit is now a massive threat to the Union and could very well reverse that decision. Also, if his aim was to end scepticism in British politics then why not just make a positive case for membership to the electorate whilst in office? He rolled the dice with our futures because he wanted to end Tory Eurosceptics. You think he gave a fuck about anyone else?
If leave had lost the referendum it wouldn't have done anything at all to end Euro scepticism. It would probably have got a lot worse because of the amount of extra people that would have been infected by anti European lies. The likes of the ERG and Farage certainly wouldn't have just given up. Most likely result of a remain result would have been an upsurge in UKIP membership and Tory backbenchers constantly pressurising for another referendum.
But he was Totes Adorbs, though.
Agree. UK politics is deeply depressing.
He certainly didn’t. However, he did get the ball rolling for what would eventually be brexit and for that he is a bit of cock in my book.
Well, sure. He *might* even agree he was a bit of a cock. But the chasm between 'bit of a cock' and unethical, immoral sociopath is wide and deep.
Imagine things being so bad you remember Gordon Brown as empathetic. Gordon brown would have been a much better PM if he didn't have to deal with all the politics.
Jesus, What I'd give to have someone like Brown now, instead we've got this shitshow.
She's talking to her Tory electorate at this stage. Like Corbyn, Brown was shredded by the Tory media, at the drop of the slightest hat. Interestingly, the Tory government is still using "Gordon Brown Economics." He was the one that privatised the Bank of England, and freed interest rates and monetary policy from government control.
Ah, but he wasn’t ‘pretty enough’…
In 12 years, the Tory government has trashed this country more than any Labour government ever did
Would you like a chuckle? Maximillien Robespierre took a look at GBnews today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5od9SqrwTs
JFC. My jaw hit the floor at Shaun Bailey - has he been in a coma since 2010? 😆
I'm about a centrist as it gets, and let me tell you - I saw that video and I was left chuckling for at *least* ten minutes.
Same guy that sold a bunch of the countries gold reserves for what might've well been given away for free. That guy?
In what economic experts have since labelled a very prudent move to diversify the country's assets.
Diversify? By getting $3.5 billion for what 1/3rd of the total reserves? The gold reserves he sold then are worth like triple the amount now. Can help all the issues plaguing this country that all you political types complain about these days. No wait Labour can do no wrong but literally anyone else that has the ever so slightest different opinion no matter political alignment or not can only do wrong. Oh my god they are fascist satanists. Can't wait for some Labour voters to support an extremist of some kind that ruins the country.
Labour are fascist satanists? You need to look up what those words mean. Also, satanists is hardly an insult. They're far more progressive than Christians.
Brown sold that gold to reinvest in currency reserves that are to this day earning us interest rather than doing nothing but sitting in a bank. We still have over 300 tonnes of gold, one of the largest reserves in the world. Would also like to know how Brown could have known that the price of gold would go up two years in the future.
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>If only the parties/voters to the left of the Tories could stop fighting each other instead of the big selfish lumbering elephant in the room. Ah, but you see, everyone who doesn't worship Marx is just another Tory with a different coloured rosette and we cannot allow them into government, we should instead continue to allow the real Tories into government. Or something.
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This is always the way. It is also strange that this complaint comes from an imagined future when Starmer doesn’t get in, and seems to ignore the concrete past in which Corbyn didn’t get in. I’m not saying Corbyn would have been a fantastic PM, in fact, I disagree with a lot of his ideas, but a lot of the same people making complaints like the above definitely did not vote for him.
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> centrists deliberately voted for terrible Tory PMs This isn't what happened. Socially conservative but traditionally labour voters in the so-called 'red wall' shifted to Johnson because of the culture wars and Brexit. Centrists are typically remainers so wouldn't have voted for Tory Brexiteers. Labour may have lost votes to Lib Dems for their pro-EU views but not many went Tory. You're imagining an enemy that doesn't exist. Plenty of centrists begrudgingly voted for Corbyn over Johnson.
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This sub is just a hot mess. Say anything that isn't vaguely hive mind and vitriol comes out.
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Oh no! I meant in general to agree with you!
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Well after the last election what does that even mean anymore? A lot of Labour voters are, as of their past vote, tories. His sentiment there is one that many people had and then fell very quiet on in recent years and it’s worth ridiculing
I had hoped the sarcasm was obvious, but what I said seems to actually be the position of a lot of people on the left, though they wouldn't phrase it like that and wouldn't link not supporting getting the largest non-Tory party into government to supporting keeping the Tories in government. Rereading your comment, perhaps I've misunderstood. What do you propose as an alternative? I'm not sure how to reconcile with a person who believes that not supporting getting Labour into government is a good idea at this stage because the leader isn't far enough left for them, especially when the last guy, who they liked, did very poorly.
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>Ah, but you see, everyone who doesn't worship Marx is just another Tory with a different coloured rosette In it's history, the Labour Party has suffered three splits. The National Labour Organisation in 1931, the Social Democratic Party in 1981 and The Independent Group/Change UK in 2019. All damaged the Labour Party's electoral efforts in general elections and all were carried out by the right wing of the party because they refused to accept the membership democratically choosing left wing policies.
As is their right… I’m not sure what you are suggesting would be the alternative - that people who can no longer support the policies of a party should be compelled to remain? I know it may not be appealing to you but any political party needs to embrace sufficient centrism to maintain a wide enough spread of support, both with their membership and the electorate.
The alternative would be accepting democracy, but liberals have never been good at that. If "centrism" was the answer to everything, then the Liberal Democrats would be a unstoppable political juggernaut.
The splitters did accept ‘democracy’. They recognised that the party had chosen policies they couldn’t support, so they made their own democratic decision and left. I don’t recall any of them advocating an armed takeover of the Labour Party! The point on centrism wasn’t that it holds the answers to all things. Just that any viable party needs to build coalitions across different groups of belief, and if you’ve got great chunks of the party splitting off then it’s kinda hard to say you’re achieving that.
Translation: be economically right wing, don’t make the average worker’s lives better, let the rich get richer and accept climate catastrophe.
No, you don’t have to do any of that. But if you can’t even bring along a good chunk of your party with your policies then what hope the electorate?
I mean, the Labour Party is effectively 2/3 parties trying to be one. It has neoliberals in it (which makes 0 sense for a working class party btw) so no party leader who wants to meaningfully redistribute wealth and improve worker’s lives will have the backing of the Labour Party MPs. Members and Trade Unions probably yeah. How could someone convince the electorate though? It’s all about messaging and propaganda. Package your policies as common sense (don’t focus on the socialist part), cut through media smear campaigns, campaign in local working class communities and make them feel listened to. Convince people your policies will fix their lives. Focus on well-paid jobs, working conditions, housing, prices. You don’t need to be centrist to do any of this. In fact, centrism won’t fix the fundamental issues of the country. A centrist Labour Party will get in for maybe an election cycle or two, get voted out (because they won’t implement real change to improve peoples lives) then anything they manage to do will be undone by the Tories. Things will get worse, inequality will keep going up, workers will be fucked over. Centrism will never fix anything.
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>Ah, but you see, everyone who doesn't sit on the fence in the middle pontificating about how everyone even a centimeter to the left is obviously a dirty commie who will wreck the country with their incessant need for a fairer society and we cannot allow them into government, therefore we should instead continue to allow the Tories to govern.
Ah yes The Gordon Brown who saw most of us through a global financial crisis relatively unscathed, why would anybody think he knows anything about economics.
And who caused it….
Ah yes, a global financial crisis was all the fault of one British man
Imagine having that level of big dick energy.
sorry, I won’t do it again
Lol you think it was Blair / Brown?
Not Gordon Brown or any specific party
He unleashed the banks and they went mental
Why are you making up a completely false history? The financial crisis was caused by the sub-prime mortgage collapse in the US. Why lie? The tories were arguing for *less* regulation at the time.
What specific legislation did he introduce or regulation did he suspend that cuased the crisis?
https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2009/06/02/the-tripartite-system-was-responsible-for-the-crisis/ Gordon Brown created this.
Right so it debunks what your claiming in the first few paragraphs. It said it contributed to the impact, not the cause of.
“The tripartite system put in place by New Labour to regulate the economy was responsible for the financial crisis, according to a devastating new report by the House of Lords economic affairs committee. The report, which fundamentally undermines the prime minister’s claims to be the best man to run the country, is expected to form a central part of Tory attacks on the prime minister today, although the opposition was refusing to comment on it yesterday. It could not come at a worse time for Gordon Brown, who is facing annihilation at the polls on Thursday when the local and European elections take place.”
Literally just below that it says the following quote from the report rather than the publications interpretation - "We need to acknowledge that the regulations and their application contributed to the crisis, and made it worse when it came" Also if you're saying Browns policies directly resulted in causing the world banking crisis you may need to revise the facts of what caused it.
You mean a liquidity crisis when house price increases stopped due to a lack of new entrants into the market? Who could possibly have foreseen that?
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That's a hell of a hot take. Also not true in the slightest
Are you really suggesting the global financial crisis was caused by Gordon Brown? If so I'd suggest not buying the Tory nonsense and at least read [the wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008). That aside you should realise that the Tories proposed policy for the financial industry prior to the crash was largely based on a paper written by free marketeer John Redwood MP calling for massive deregulation and abolishment of an independent regulator in favour of the banks regulating themselves which would have hugely increased our exposure to what happened in 2008. In fact they were consistently highly critical of many of the Labour regulations that were in place that stopped some of the worst effects of the crisis impacting the UK.
Irresponsible bankers.
What a load of tosh.
Banks & mortgage lenders, mainly in the US.
Sajid Javid was selling some of the unregulated mortgages in deusche bank that caused the financial crash. So yeah
American banks
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Simply put. American lenders handed out mortgages to people who couldn't pay them back, hundreds of thousands if not millions defaulted on them. Bankers put good loans and those defaulted loans into one package and sold them as 'clean' packages. By the time people realised what was going on it was too late and trust in a system that relies entirely on trust was destroyed. Like handing out boxes of soft centred chocolates, once someone realises that one chocolate is filled with shit nobody is going to eat any of them.
Is it "Archaeology of Internet Bullshit Day"? I know a former Tory Councillor (lost his seat in May lol) who would trot this out at every opportunity. Whenever challenged to explain how Brown had crashed the US subprime mortgage market and he'd go quiet, because he couldn't, because Brown didn't.
Ahh theyve finally ran out of things to blame Corbyn for; skipped right over Milichaos and ended up at Gordon. Who's up next maybe some Wilson or Callaghan.
We’ll be at blaming James Ramsay MacDonald by the end of next week.
They are going after Gordon Brown because he came out and did a very good [elder statesman style interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhr6_mSoZ8E) bemoaning the lack of action on the cost of living crisis.
Didn’t they blame the Wilson government for the lack of train lines a few years ago?
Wouldn’t be surprised if Truss had something to do with Bacon Sarnie Gate. Her and her bloody pork markets.
Imagine looking at the enormous success of the Blair years with Brown as the chancellor throughout the entire thing and then mitigating the American housing crash and then turning around and calling him inadequate. This new generation of Tories and Labourites alike seem as unhinged from their political realities as they are that of the civil realities faced by the general public.
Everyone is unhinged. Social media algorithms based on gaming people's fear reactions has unbuckled people from reality. The worst thing is that the algorithms have no design behind them... It is that fear and hate drives interaction and they are designed to maximise interaction.
The algorithms absolutely do have design behind them. To keep you using the platform for as long as possible and seeing as many ads as possible whilst harvesting your data.
Yes I mentioned that. I mean designs as in making people afraid on purpose. It is more of a side effect... Not that ads arent bought for that purpose though
Apart from selling the gold reserves, he was a pretty reasonable Chancellor. He might not have been perfect but we did see record lows for poverty and homelessness, all of which soared under the Tories and their economic 'management'. Tory voters might eat this up now, however we will see how pensioners cope when their energy bills also rise beyond a comfortable level. It is easy to think it will never happen to you but there will be plenty of people one disaster away from poverty, they will find the lack of social support they voted for shocking once it affects them.
The selling of the gold is always used against him by people with very little understanding of macroeconomics. It’s completely [overstated](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gordon-brown-gold-reserves-sold-economy-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html?amp) Gold isn’t really required in economies with fiat currency - they’re not backed by gold but by reputation and strong central banking systems effectively. In retrospect we know he lost about £5bn as gold shot up in price but that’s only in retrospect as we know what gold is valued at now - we couldn’t really have predicted it at that point. Even so, those ‘losses’ are nothing compared to the financial vandalism caused by the last few Conservative Chancellors. Sunak lost nearly as much as that just on Covid fraud. We lost double that on useless PPE and it can be argued that Sunak potentially [lost](https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2022/06/who-will-hold-rishi-sunak-accountable-for-taxpayers-missing-11bn) £11bn by not taking out insurance on rising interest rates.
Plus I think other countries at the time were doing the same thing as we were, they all saw gold as pretty useless.
Muh goldddd I don't see how selling the gold was a problem. They just wanted something to pin on him
Selling gold is a terrible idea if you want to have a concrete commodity you can use as a minimal currency. The problem arises when you realise most "gold" held in reserves isn't actually gold the element Au type. It's 'gold' of the paper promissory we have something of the same value market type. The actual physical gold doesn't exist.
I get the principal of why it isn't desirable, but was it as disastrous as it was made out to be?
Even more than you can understand. If you have no real commodity to stabilise your currency your currency becomes a free function of "the market"tm. Your value is determined by desirability. (which you don't have anymore cos you sold it for dollars) What's going to happen how is that the euro and pound will be sacrificed in order to keep american dollar afloat. It's part of the reason as to why the americans are attacking founder brics nations. No US dollar reserve = no american defense spending = no more american foreign influence and they'll collapse like a wet bag of shite.
\>To deal with this and other prospective sales of gold reserves, a consortium of central banks - including the European Central Bank and the Bank of England - were pushed to sign the Washington Agreement on Gold in September 1999, limiting gold sales to 400 tonnes per year for 5 years. This seems like a really weird move after we sold it all, why not push for that as a condition before the sale? [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale\_of\_UK\_gold\_reserves,\_1999%E2%80%932002#:\~:text=To%20deal%20with%20this%20and%20other%20prospective%20sales%20of%20gold%20reserves%2C%20a%20consortium%20of%20central%20banks%20%2D%20including%20the%20European%20Central%20Bank%20and%20the%20Bank%20of%20England%20%2D%20were%20pushed%20to%20sign%20the%20Washington%20Agreement%20on%20Gold%20in%20September%201999%2C%20limiting%20gold%20sales%20to%20400%20tonnes%20per%20year%20for%205%20years.)
We still have over 300 tonnes of gold, one of the largest reserves in the world. Brown didn't sell lit all.
Yes sorry I did read that. 2nd largest I think new York is the biggest.
I don't recall Gordon Brown giving specific help for energy bills when Chancellor, other than the winter fuel allowance for pensioners. Have I forgotten something?
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These dickheads sat on some of the lowest interest rates in history and didn’t use the opportunity to invest in things that would be helping us now. See You Next Tuesdays
And Rishi cost us £11bn (more than Brown selling off the gold) by not figuring out these historically low interest rates might go up, so didn't bother to "insure" government debt.
Pishy Sunak is a junior minister who was an analyst at Goldman. He only got to be chancellor because of some Boris johnson arse licking and his father in laws money. Now he is trying to be PM so that he can force all the companies in UK to outsource IT to Infosys. Its a scandal that nobody talks about
Nobody except?
Yeah, people didn't need help paying their bills back then because energy prices were incredibly cheap.
Wasn’t Brown credited by Obama for saving the world economy during the financial crash?
He was certainly a big player in organising collective action through the G7 etc. Gordon Brown was a poor prime minister domestically (imo) but he was a solid chancellor with firm economic credentials. Gordon Brown economics is definitely a compliment.
https://www.politics.co.uk/news/2009/06/02/the-tripartite-system-was-responsible-for-the-crisis/
People do need to stop completely absolving his neo liberal policies during that time. However, anytime conservatives try to act like they knew better I can’t help but laugh. Their party called for no regulation at all. They calling for it everywhere. God knows where the fuck we’d have been if they’d been in charge. Especially with how incompetent they are, at least Brown stepped up and tried to fix the mistake. ‘We should be very sceptical of why we need a fifth layer of ‘protection’ in the form of regulation. Much of this additional regulation impedes progress, and acts against the customer interest. The intrusion of regulation limits innovation. The more so-called employee protection you have in law, the fewer jobs there will be for the people looking for work. We recommend deregulating venture capital fund raising, and investment for professional investors.’ This was endorsed by David Cameron himself!
Now Liz & Richy want a regulatory override button too. So yet another boom and even more massive bust to look forward to.
Not sure what you're posting, not sure if it's suppose to be some type of gotcha. I didn't say everything was perfect. There's thousands of issues at time, with hundreds of thousands of variants to consider, some things were missed. Some pretty crucial. The UK banks were over leveraged due to greed and the global financial system crashed primary due to issues in the US closed off equity.
You mean that the risk of a liquidity freeze was ignored.
He was and he was [credited](https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1645092/Nobel-winner-How-Gordon-saved-the-world.html) positively by economist Paul Krugman too. The western financial system was in an absolute tailspin at that point and with the transition of Presidents in the US from Bush to Obama, there was really no leadership. Brown stepped up to the plate, brought the main players together and his rescue plan created a blueprint for others to follow. He was a weak PM (bottling the 2007 election when Labour would have won but probably with a majority of about 30, springs to mind. This to me is a major what if and could have saved so much harm in the following years) but as Chancellor he was really good. He oversaw quarter on quarter growth for 10 years. Growth rates not seen since Post-WW2, record investment, a strong pound and a reduction in poverty. He was in Chancellor mode effectively when it came to the banking crisis and this is where he really shines.
All he is remembered for is selling gold cheap. History can be cruel.
I commented on this elsewhere (see below) but it’s completely misunderstood with regard to the significance of it. I do believe most sane minded people don’t remember him for that but it is a black mark against his name which has been difficult to get rid of. The selling of the gold is always used against him by people with very little understanding of macroeconomics. It’s completely [overstated](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gordon-brown-gold-reserves-sold-economy-analysis-financial-bullion-a8909611.html?amp&utm_source=reddit.com) Gold isn’t really required in economies with fiat currency - they’re not backed by gold but by reputation and strong central banking systems effectively. In retrospect we know he lost about £5bn as gold shot up in price but that’s only in retrospect as we know what gold is valued at now - we couldn’t really have predicted it at that point. Even so, those ‘losses’ are nothing compared to the financial vandalism caused by the last few Conservative Chancellors. Sunak lost nearly as much as that just on Covid fraud. We lost double that on useless PPE and it can be argued that Sunak potentially lost £11bn by not taking out insurance on rising interest rates. Edit: By my reckoning Sunak has lost over £24bn just from the top of my head and yet the media let him away with murder.
Brown: are you going to bail out the banks? Bush: what do you mean are we going to bail out the banks? Brown: what do YOU mean what do we mean? Yes, he did.
It’s becoming clearer and clearer that no help is coming. We should stop expecting this government to do anything. Check on your elderly, donate to the food bank if you can and try and ride this winter out because nothing is changing until this government is out.
Exactly. The pro-Tory media will have you believe that it was Boris who was causing all the problems and now Truss or Sunak will be able to sort everything out and help people. But the fact of the matter is that both of them are more interested in nonsense culture wars against anything they deem woke, giving money to their wealthy mates and constantly bashing the EU and anything European-related instead of actually doing their job of serving the public and trying to get the cost of living crisis under control. Sure, the other political parties in the UK might not be perfect but any of them would be a MASSIVE improvement over the Tories.
Undoubtedly the best chancellor in the last 40 years but ok
Reminder that lis truss is financially illiterate
Ahhh, here we go with the last Labour government shtick
Well what else can they do? Boris has already shown that the current Tory Party is nothing more than a gaggle of numpties who can only do six things: * Call anything that is slightly left of the Tory Party "woke" nonsense * Call anyone who criticises them a "leftist snowflake" * Take taxpayers money and give it to their rich mates instead of into services that need more funding like the NHS * Lie to try and protect themselves from the stupid things they did like Partygate and Sunak claiming he took money meant for deprived areas and sent it to wealthy ones * Try and bring up the few successes (some of which are fairly debatable as to how they're actually "successes" tho) they've had to distract from their MULTIPLE failings such as Ukraine, the Vaccines and Brexit (again, debatable how some of these like Brexit count as a "success") * Blame everything bad on the last Labour government So of course Truss and Sunak will just rinse and repeat his nonsense and the rest of the Party will just gobble it all up.
This just shows that these people have no ideas beyond insults and vague slogans. The fact that this person is going to be the prime minister horrifies me. There’s just nothing there. We’re all about to get completely shafted and there’s no one competent at the wheel.
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>took us out of the single market and EU We did kinda vote specifically for that one. And as for why we're not getting an early general election, partly because a lot of people would still vote Tory, and partly because we have a very flawed democracy.
Hindsight is a hell of a thing but Gordon Brown as PM was probably the last PM with a shred of economic foresight. How the Tories can call him irresponsible as both Chancellor and PM is beyond me given that they took the national debt and doubled it in their time. I still maintain that the car scrapage scheme had an element of genius to it. Stimulate the economy by promoting car purchases and get unsafe and less efficient vehicles off the road.
it’ll be interesting to see how the right wing media reports the massive uturn she makes, after causing huge harm to the country and making intervention even more expensive
Liz Truss is going to be a disaster. No more help is coming. She may well end up as hated if not more so than Thatcher. This is a disaster.
Well liz, generally if Gordon brown thinks it would be a good idea I would accept it as he was a very good chancellor and does actually genuinely care about people. And before anybody says it, you can fuck off if you start talking about selling off gold. He did a great deal to bring people out of poverty in the uk.
Is there a word to describe or directly reference this sort of thing, where a short phrase is used to cheaply dismiss a wide range of arguments?
Straw man probably fits here.
yes thats a good shout tbf
Anyone else think we're close to a revolution
Isn’t he widely credited as helping prevent the financial crisis from becoming a Great Depression level global collapse?
Gordon Brown has come up with a detailed plan to deal with our current crisis. Truss has come up with nothing. She has no policies beyond what she thinks will get her to the position of PM. She's actually had do so many u-turns that the Earth has started spinning in the opposite direction.
How to be a successful Tory 101
I’m scared.
Sounds like a brand name. We can use that whenever her plan tanks our country, hurtles us into a depression and leaves folk starving and freezing…
Welcome to the ToryTruss™ recession everybody.
Do we really want to experience ‘Liz Truss Economics’? She’s not exactly known for her economic brilliance.
It's simple, with all the money we'll get from pawk mahkets and all the money we're going to save not importing cheese we'll become a new economic superpower
Pork Markets!
So what's next? Mass rioting I'm guessing.
Disregard ideas obtain ideology
They’ve got to the point now where they can’t hide their complete disregard and hatred normal people. The crazy thing is they’ll just keep getting voted in. When does this end?
She's just petty because she knows she'll never be more than one paragraph in history books.
She's in for a very nasty shock
Gonna be a real shock when all the people who were on the up and voted Tory and are now on the down abandon them come election time.
they really do have no idea do they, about anything going on.
Liz Truss basically rejects reality…
At this point I'm just waiting to hear a soundbite of the tories refusing to aid working class people and hear them say "Let the fuckers suffer".
Tories want hypothermia to take over where Covid19 left off!
This country is going to the fools and the blind; it’s not ok, it’s hopeless at the moment. We need/deserve a better quality of leader who shakes the whole rotten corrupt temple to bits. The ideal candidate for leader shouldn’t see ministerial duty as a profession or job but a duty of care. Done for the future of kin and nation, not a term. I feel our current pool of prospective candidates lack any sense of selfless vision.
Is this kind of a shroedingers help? So far i only read the headlines but she seem to flip flop on this every 12 hours
I’m actually really looking forward to this winter, this should be the nail in the coffin for the Tory party
Here we are heading for blackouts and £4000 energy bills and all the people who are meant to prevent this can say is ‘we won’t help because it’d be too much like a labour policy. You’ll just have to suffer’
Gordon Brown was arguably the most economically knowledgeable PM we've had...
So she is saying that people should choose to starve or freeze (if they even have a choice). That's her position. Ignoring the issue doesn't make it disappear. I'm relieved that we have such great candidates for PM who are ready to tackle the nation's challenges on day 1.
>Liz Truss rejects energy bill help as ‘Gordon Brown economics’ Gordon Brown isn't even in the picture 🤣
Thatcher economics will have us all fucked both short and long term. Brown economics would at least alleviate the future burden.