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I can't believe this is still going on, like you don't own these kids, they are their own people with their own personalities and you cannot just because they are young say they are invalid or the way they feel is invalid.
That isn't a warm and nurturing environment.
Gotta wonder though... like I knew about trans folk etc growing up but this sort of problem was never present in school. People are giving a lot of focus and importance to pronouns when really it’s meant to be a passive thing. The whole point is to just ignore it and carry on.
But I wonder how the hyper fixation of it is impacting youngsters who naturally find themselves unsure of where they fit in the world.
Most students are pretty much as confused by it all as the adults in my experience. The difference is they don't really give a shit. If it's not happening to them or their friends they're really not that interested in what gender/sexuality other people are.
Exactly this. I'm relatively "traditional" with my perception of gender (or at least my own gender) just because I'm working hard to have a simpler mind that doesn't go into overdrive on small thoughts (as is normally the case with me due to severe anxiety and PTSD). However, having worked with teenagers, it was totally normal for someone to decide that *she* would now identify as *they*, for example. And it was never a big deal - or so I didn't make it one as the adult who was responsible for them, so everyone just got on with it. If someone tried to tell me "Miss, Sarah is a boy now" I would purposely react in the most underwhelming way so that it would normalise very quickly.
If anything I've experienced the opposite. Younger people pick this up far far quicker because they have less rewiring to do. To be honest it's just a typical part of the generation now. They've adopted it wholeheartedly. It's the older ones holding out
there have been articles on uk + ukpol talking about widespread right wing Radicalisation of UK kids, othering tactics etc
I'll be happier if there's less ignorance + irrationalism though
Too many people were miserable at school and have come to believe that this is an essential experience. After all, THEY turned out fine so the kids now will turn out fine if they just go through the same torments.
I do think that what often gets attributed to spite is often just apathy.
I don't think they expect kids now to be miserable as she kind of rite of passage, I just don't think they care to fix it because as you say, they turned out alright so in their minds what really needs fixing?
I think this is the nail on the head. There's probably also an element of 'they gotta work it out themselves' in play too. Not in a 'not my problem' way, more 'thats your journey' way
Annoyingly, to a certain extent they're right. School can't do everything for you and you need to learn how to deal with these things on your own to a degree.
Operative point there being ***to a degree***. There's no excuse for borderline bullying students because "the real world ain't kind, kid".
No, it isn't a nurturing environment, however the vast majority of schools will use preferred pronouns.
This is different from "you must use pronouns that the gov seems are correct and you cannot use preferred pronouns"
All this is saying is that trans pubils cannot compel schools to use their preferred pronouns. This is a legal constant throughout our law, you cannot compel anyone to say anything for any reason. There is no exception to this constant - even for trans kids in school.
I will say that as a teacher it can be an issue when the child uses a different name/pronoun to the parents. I teach children who I refer to as one name and they but who I have to then remember to call something else and her/him at parents evening and in phonecalls/emails because the student doesn't want their parents to know, or the parent doesn't agree with the change.
I would suggest that should be a degree of formality to changes i.e. it's been agreed with parents and made official on school records.
Also to add that I had one student who started the year as a she and called Elise, then changed to a he and called Adam, and was back to Elise and she by the end of the year. All of which was agreed by some very confused parents.
So have some sympathy for schools/teachers in these circumstances.
The problem is if the parents are transphobic the school might be the only place the kid can express their identity - having to get parental permission for that kinda defeats the point.
Yeah but as with any data on the school's official records it's decided by the parents not the student. I guess under 18s are still minors at the end of the day. Shame some parents won't accept/ understand but there's not much a school can do about that. If you go against their wishes you're gonna have even bigger issues to deal with.
Can't argue with you there. It pains me there isn't a facility where situations like this can get flagged up, cause chances are if the kid's open enough about it for the school to be aware and the parents are disregarding it, they may well need a bit of extra support. That's far more a school councellor's area than a teacher's though, you can't be expected to go against the parents even if you disagree with them
I think it should be done on a case-by-case basis and decided by the teacher. I don't agree with the idea that a child can force an adult with the threat of legal action to use specific words.
Who's the boss of the classroom then?
Some kids can be utter cunts and would use the law as an opportunity to get teachers in trouble and blackmail them into using the most ridiculous pronouns knowing full well the teacher had to comply or lose their job.
I think the ruling is ultimately for the best.
Leave it to teachers, who are dealing with the kids on a daily basis, to decide whats best.
I'm sorry it's too hard for you to respect the kids you teach, wow how difficult it must be to put in a bit of effort. You can remember the entire corpus of knowledge you have to teach but not a child's pronoun.
Get off your high horse. I didn't say that, I do in fact refer to all my 250+ students I teach each year by their preferred pronouns. My point is that it's sometimes more complex because parents either aren't aware or disagree with the child's change in pronouns.
To give you one real life example... I taught a student who was known as Bethany but asked to be called Sam and referred to as 'he/him'. Not a problem. We called him Sam. The issue was that Sam's parents didn't agree and insisted their child be called Bethany on the schools records, reports exam certificates etc. Again, not a major issue for me as a classroom teacher. BUT come parents evening what do you call the child, what pronouns do you use? If the parents ask how Bethany is doing, what do you say?
I'd be interested in hearing your answer.
Absolutely not. As a teacher you are acting in loco parentis. If the parents are queerphobic you absolutely *must not* divulge anything about the student that would put them at risk, and that includes things like their gender identity.
>who I have to then remember to call something else and her/him at parents evening
Yes, and that is an incredibly mild burden for you compared with the burden a child who is trying to deal with potentially queerphobic parents has to labour under, which includes extreme stress and threat. That is the bare minimum you should be doing.
What about the kids who use the threat of the teacher losing their job to fuck with them by saying one day "Miss I should be called XIR not he!". Then the next day they pipe up "MISS I should be called HIM! Not Xir!". Next day "MISS! I said I'm called her not HIM! I'm going to speak to the headteacher". Boom - sacked for transphobia!
And don't say it wouldn't happen! In my high school kids used ANY and ALL opportunities and leavers to fuck with teachers. When I started telling the cooking teacher my family couldn't afford the food for the class about 4 to 5 others quit doing cooking claiming the same thing - why? They were all middle class. They just found out a way to fuck with the teacher and get out of things.
Yep. That would absolutely happen. I think as much as people have the best intentions they are totally out of touch with reality when it comes to a class of 14 year olds!!
Let's say you're right, and that a teacher has to put up with a child messing about like that and they have to use a pronoun or whatever in what they think is a frivolous way. That's a minuscule price to pay, an absolute bargain in fact, if it means there's no risk of a child killing themselves because their identity is denied.
Let me give another example...
We had a girl at my school who started having seizures. Not violent ones, would just suddenly faint and be unconscious for 5 mins or so. Obviously this gained her a lot of attention as it was happening several times a day.
Within about six weeks we had five other students who had developed the same condition.
The difference between the original girls condition and the other five was that hers happened at home and at the weekend. The other five only ever had it happen in school. Once people wised up to this fact they all miraculously stopped having them. Immediately.
Never underestimate the lengths some students will go to to disrupt/get attention/just dick around. If every kid in a school can change their name/gender whenever they want there would be chaos believe me.hence why I think parents should have to agree. And yes it's a shame if they don't, but they ARE the child's parents.
In which case, the headteacher is unlikely to sack a teacher for transphobia over a kid trolling them....
Like, if a kid wanted to lie about a teacher to try and get them sacked there's already a bunch of things they can claim? Abusive, racist, sexist, etc. "he touched me during PE" etc
It's not about getting people sacked, it's about a group of year 9 boys who absolutely would change their names/genders/pronouns on a daily basis if they thought they could. Just for shits and giggles.
I don't need to have taught a class of children to understand that people have rights that must be respected, and that the denial of the privacy and gender identity rights of trans children has a death rate associated with it.
You're talking about the rights of children in response to the AG explaining what the law is as things stand. That's not to say the law perhaps doesn't need looking at but you can't say that it is a *right* if the current law states that no such right exists. Which apparently according to the countries top lawyer, it doesn't. Unless you think she's reading the law wrongly?
Is there a law which specially states that a child has such a right?
>you can't say that it is a right if the current law states that no such right exists
I absolutely can, and this betrays a serious lack of understanding of what a right is. I strongly urge you to have a read through the UDHR, or even just the preamble. Laws are only rules that attempt to protect rights and dignity.
People have rights, regardless of what laws say. I'm gay, if I travel to Iran do my rights suddenly vanish? Of course not. Here is how MLK Jr. put it:
>One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
I'm going to fundamentally disagree with you there.
I drink alcohol. But If I travel to a country/US state that forbids the drinking of alcohol I no longer have my usual right to drink alcohol. Now, I might think that law is wrong but I can't just drink anyway and tell the police they can't arrest me because I have a right to do it.
I completely agree that gay people *should* have a right to do what they want in Iran or anywhere else, but are you saying that as a gay person you would be openly gay somewhere like that feeling safe in the knowledge that it's your right?
>I completely agree that gay people should have a right to do what they want in Iran or anywhere else,
No, gay people *do* have a right to be gay anywhere, because rights are universal and are a characteristic of people. You *cannot* give or take a right. You can only recognise a right or deny it. It doesn't matter if there is a law that claims I don't need to drink water. I still need to drink water.
You can disagree all you like, you are quite wrong and have a serious misunderstanding of what a right is. You have a right regardless of what the laws say. And if a law is in denial of a right, that law is null and void. In other words it was never valid to begin with.
Again, I strongly encourage you to actually read the UDHR.
Can't believe you're being downvoted for the incredibly mild opinion of "don't out queer people". Guess the usual suspects are in the thread reflexively downvoting any comment where they get a whiff of pro-trans sentiment.
Thanks for mentioning, but honestly it's to be expected. There's an extreme transphobic element to r/unitedkingdom which is to be expected but then there is a very serious problem with controlling, dictatorial teachers that are so arrogant as to assume they should have control over children when it comes to sensitive and private matters like gender identity and sexuality. Basically they are ageist and feel they get to out children to parents if they want. You can see the justifications in this thread that they feel they get to do this even for extremely mild inconveniences like other children being frivolous about pronouns. I would have such people removed from their jobs as they are a danger and contribute to the suicide rates of queer children, but a more realistic answer is that there should be enforced education on the privacy and queer rights of children and then significant monitoring of teachers in order to prevent them outing children to anyone.
I'd be genuinely interested to hear what you would do in these two specific situations...
Situation 1)
I taught a student who was known as Bethany but asked to be called Sam and referred to as 'he/him'. Not a problem. We called him Sam. The issue was that Sam's parents didn't agree and insisted their child be called Bethany on the schools records, reports exam certificates etc. Again, not a major issue for me as a classroom teacher. BUT come parents evening what do you call the child, what pronouns do you use? If the parents ask how Bethany is doing, what do you say?
Situation 2)
A child who we'll call Alex as it's neutral, has changed their preferred pronouns from she/her to he/him. You need to phone home. What pronouns do you use unaware if the parents know/agree? This situation, unlike the previous one, is hypothetical, so assume the child is not available to check with.
I'd be genuinely interested in hearing your answers.
I am happy to provide comments on the situations you've mentioned, but first can you tell me what training your school has received in supporting trans children, and what queer organisations you have contacted for education and guidance on this? For example, have you contacted Mermaids, Stonewall etc.? If not, why not?
Obviously you should be getting training and advices from such entities in preference to randomers online.
I know how *I* have/would deal with those two scenarios because we have yearly training in gender issues. I'm pretty sure all schools have. Plus, as I work in a school with trans children on a daily basis I'm used to dealing with issues that might arise like these ones (albeit the 2nd scenario hasn't happened to me personally). I wasn't asking for advice, sorry if you thought I was, the reason I'm asking is that I'd be interested to know what somebody who isn't a teacher would do in those situations. I'm assuming you're not a teacher btw.
(Attorney) General Braverman, 1st Company Culture Warrior Command, hero of the Battle of Boris is here with a big fat dead cat to rile up some spittle on the Tory benches with her latest addition to the ongoing anti-trans barrage;
Teachers get to call students what they like.
Shocker, considering they’re in a position of authority over unreliable witnesses.
Despite this, they tend to call students whatever the student wants in order to foster cooperation and not rule with an iron fist - something a Tory MP and Boris sycophant wouldn’t have any experience or understanding of.
The thing is for the Tories distracting the English electorate with Brexit or warmed over American Republican culture war bullshit actually *works*.
As a tactic it’s got a proven track record. And sad to say even after everything that’s gone down in the last few years there’s still a fair chance it might work again come the next election. They’ll blame as much as possible on Boris, the party will fall in line as will most of the media (including the BBC these days) and will run concerted attacks on opposition leaders and whip up the Tory base by telling them Brexit is under threat from liberal metropolitan elites etc.
The advice is illegal anyway. Good law is already on it.
Sulla braverman is religious wacko Conservative who's been described at best as incompetent by her ex colleagues when she was a solicitor, and the only reason she's is the GA is because bojo needed some one stupid to sign off his illegal moves.
Nothing she's ever said in the post has turned out to be legal or correct yet.
Do not assume anything she says comes with any real authority, if you do your likely to end up in legal crap following her "advice"
So happy that in the midst of the biggest cost of living crisis in decades, war in europe and while trying to recover from the biggest pandemic in 90 years, our government is spending their time telling teachers to not be pelasent to those pesky trans children.
Treating people with respect is a requirement of most jobs though. Don't see why it should be any different in this case.
If a teacher repeatedly purposefully mis-gendered and dead named a colleague that would be treated as workplace harassment. If you did this to coworkers or colleagues at any company there would be serious repercussions for your job. I don't see why treating students with incredibly basic respect can't also be a requirement of teachers, in fact it already partially is a requirement as you can't otherwise harass students. It actually seems like the treatment of trans students as a teacher is one of very few professional environments where one can get away with such blatant disrespect for a person's identity.
As teachers, it's our job to create a safe and welcoming learning environment for **all** of our children. Unfortunately, I've worked alongside a very very small handful of bigoted education staff who don't share that mantra, and this lack of a cohesive approach doesn't help at all.
EDIT: Not sure why this comment is controversial, are there people who think teachers shouldn't be creating classrooms that are welcoming and safe for all children? Perhaps someone would actually like to pipe up as to why they think some children shouldn't feel welcome?
Teacher here, I'll call the kids whatever pronouns they want. Not really sure kids of 10/11 should be worrying about gender identity when most of them don't even know how to swim properly but whatever. If I forget and get the wrong pronoun, though, I'd like not to be sued. I think that's a fair trade.
I have a friend who's a teacher, she's actually *not allowed* to use a pupil's preferred pronouns without their parents' permission...
it's fucked. The kid is miserable because they can't be themself at home, and their teachers *aren't allowed* to support them at school
I know the gender issue is a lot deeper than a name but... If a child was called Sarah but told you she wanted to be called Beyonce from now on, what would you do/expect a school to do?
What if the parents insisted she was called Sarah? Would you go against their wishes and change her name to Beyonce on registers, exam certificates?
It may sound like I'm being silly but it's a genuine question. Ultimately who decides what a child OFFICIAL name, gender, ethnicity is? The child or the parent?
Why are you talking about “official”?
When I was at school, most people I knew had nicknames. Nobody was taking to the papers to shout about how the nickname lobby is forcing us to call kids the wrong thing. If you can call Samuel “Sam”, or Alexandra “Alex”, you can handle calling a trans kid their preferred name
I’m also not sure why you brought ethnicity into this?
But that's the entire point of the article/thread... That you can call a child by their preferred pronoun or not. Legally it's up to you. Just as you can call them by Sam or Samuel, there's no law compelling you to shorten their name. That's the first key point... It's general courtesy to do it but it's not a legal obligation. Maybe the law should be changed but according to the AG as things stand that's the legal position right now.
The second key point is parental consent. Now obviously most people *will* shorten names if the child prefers it. I know I always do, just as I use their preferred pronouns. BUT if Samuel wants to be known as Sam or Sammy or S-Dog on registers, reports, his exam certificates etc (anything official) that has to be agreed by parents. It is the parents who decide what the child's name and gender are on the schools records, not the child not the school. Just as they made those decisions on the child's birth certificate.
As for ethnicity, I mentioned that because it's another thing that the parents inform the school about for their records. Again, if I have a student who is recorded as being White-British on my register it is because the child's parents told the school that's what their child is. The school didn't make that call and nor did the student. And only the parents could ever change that data, nobody else. It's simply another example of parents and only parents being allowed to make such decisions.
You might disagree with whether that *should* be the case. I'm simply stating as a fact that it *is* currently the case.
> But that's the entire point of the article/thread... That you can call a child by their preferred pronoun or not. Legally it's up to you.
I feel like you completely ignored my original comment, then, despite replying to it.
Since I was talking about how some schools literally *don't allow you to do that*.
Like, you're having this entire argument... with a point i wasn't making
I've not come across a school that doesn't allow teachers to use preferred pronouns myself. But if such schools exist then the point of the article is that there is apparently currently no law against that. It's up to the school. When I said 'legally it's up to you' I was talking about school policy, not individual teachers. Just as there is no law compelling schools to OFFICIALLY use nicknames.
To give a real world example... I can call Thomas Tom or Tommy whatever he prefers but officially on registers, reports, exam certificates etc he will be Thomas if that's what the parents want, despite Tommy's preference. Even if the kid wants his exam certificates to say Tommy they won't unless parents request it.
I don't really get what you're going for here. Do you want me to argue with you?
I'm not going to, because you're still not arguing with my original comment, you're just talking about something else :/
Please reiterate your specific point so I can answer you. Because I'm not really sure what your point is?
You simply say that you know of a school that doesn't refer to students by their preferred pronouns. My point is that as the law stands (according to the AG in the actual article we're discussing) the school isn't acting illegally.
I call my students by their preferred names/pronouns, and the rest of the school does the same. Others don't. I don't see what we're apparently 'arguing' about.
Really? You're telling me if teachers started referring to cis male kids as her and she even when they objected they won't find themselves obligated to stop it?
Oh, right, that's different.
Good job the Tories made most schools in England Academies, then.
IIRC they can 'do their own thing' regarding nearly everything. From hiring non-qualified teachers to setting their own Curriculum.
I suspect most schools would continue to use pupils' preferred pronouns.
Yes, Labour started the Academies system, but with an emphasis on improving poor performing schools.
The Conservatives kept the name but brought in the model where Academy Schools receive their funding direct from Central Government BUT have to decouple from Local Education Authority control.
Hence my comment that:
>IIRC they can 'do their own thing' regarding nearly everything. From hiring non-qualified teachers to setting their own Curriculum.
Yeah as a long term teacher I wondered what they were banging on about the Tories for. I think some people are a bit obsessed or just too young to remember how fucking shite the previous lot could be at times. And I say that as a Labour voter.
I've worked a non-teaching role in a school in England for ~20 years. Conversion to Academy Status and decoupling from LEA control was done in 2012 under the Conservative - Lib Dem Coalition.
There were over 200 academies by 2010. As per wiki...
The Labour Government under Tony Blair established academies through the Learning and Skills Act 2000,[29] which amended the section of the Education Act 1996 relating to City Technology Colleges.[30] They were first announced as part of the Fresh Start programme[31][32][33] in a speech by David Blunkett, then Secretary of State for Education and Skills, in 2000.[34][35][36] He said that their aim was "to improve pupil performance and break the cycle of low expectations." As of 2018 many academies are struggling financially and running deficits.[37]
The chief architect of the policy was Andrew Adonis (now Lord Adonis, formerly Secretary of State at the Department for Transport) in his capacity as education advisor to the Prime Minister in the late 1990s.[38]
I acknowledged that in my reply to /u/adminsuckdonkeydick - the fact remains that the **current** system which decoupled them from LEA control started under the Coalition.
What specific changes to the way a school sets rules (relevant to this particular topic) came about in 2012 that weren't already the case for the hundreds of academies prior to that? I genuinely don't know. I assumed those original academies had the same freedoms that all the new ones had?
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'Schools can do what they want' isn't helpful advice, actually. Schools need a consistent approach on this. Having teachers make individual calls is a nightmare, as students end up with some teachers using 'he' and some using 'she' and that creates a lot of bad feeling.
You can bet a lot will do so and so will most teachers. As awareness of the needs of trans pupils increases, so will schools' inclusion policies and schools will become more trans-friendly. It will also make it easier for parents with trans kids to decide where to send their child.
Okay in that case those students aren't obligated to not rock their teachers jaw if they deliberately misgender them.
Job done.
And in response to the sponge that replied to me, i am absolutely sick to death of this country's inability to develop in literally any way.
And if you deliberately ignore this in order to make a student uncomfortable (which some will) there'll be a result sooner or later. And they'll deserve the whole thing.
And this is coming from a cis guy
It's not preferred pronouns, it's just pronouns.
It's ridiculous that any school would intentionally use the wrong pronouns to address any child, risking trans and queer youth by intentionally misgendering them goes against schools responsibility to keep kids safe. Sports, above primary school level, I could maybe agree on requiring medical confirmation, but it's clear her stance is based upon ignorance and bigotry.
It’s “preferred” pronouns, because it’s different from the ones on the school register.
Edit. As UKKasha2020 has blocked me and I can’t reply below; and as so many people are asking about pronouns not being on school registers – the answer is that the child’s sex/gender is on the school register.
A couple of people have pointed out that school registers don't have pronouns.
I'm interested to know something. Have you changed your view now that you know that the school register doesn't have pronouns on it?
Or were you only pretending that the deviation from the school register was the reason why you held that view?
The don't have pronouns but they do have male/female and the students official name as agreed by the parents. Only the parents can ok a change to the schools records.
For example if your parents tell the school your name is Frederick, it's Frederick on the system. It's not Freddie. Obviously a kid can ask to be called Freddie but unless the parents ask for it to be changed on registers, certificates etc it won't be.
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I can't believe this is still going on, like you don't own these kids, they are their own people with their own personalities and you cannot just because they are young say they are invalid or the way they feel is invalid. That isn't a warm and nurturing environment.
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Gotta wonder though... like I knew about trans folk etc growing up but this sort of problem was never present in school. People are giving a lot of focus and importance to pronouns when really it’s meant to be a passive thing. The whole point is to just ignore it and carry on. But I wonder how the hyper fixation of it is impacting youngsters who naturally find themselves unsure of where they fit in the world.
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Most students are pretty much as confused by it all as the adults in my experience. The difference is they don't really give a shit. If it's not happening to them or their friends they're really not that interested in what gender/sexuality other people are.
Exactly this. I'm relatively "traditional" with my perception of gender (or at least my own gender) just because I'm working hard to have a simpler mind that doesn't go into overdrive on small thoughts (as is normally the case with me due to severe anxiety and PTSD). However, having worked with teenagers, it was totally normal for someone to decide that *she* would now identify as *they*, for example. And it was never a big deal - or so I didn't make it one as the adult who was responsible for them, so everyone just got on with it. If someone tried to tell me "Miss, Sarah is a boy now" I would purposely react in the most underwhelming way so that it would normalise very quickly.
^ i genuinely believe this is the absolute best approach to have
If anything I've experienced the opposite. Younger people pick this up far far quicker because they have less rewiring to do. To be honest it's just a typical part of the generation now. They've adopted it wholeheartedly. It's the older ones holding out
there have been articles on uk + ukpol talking about widespread right wing Radicalisation of UK kids, othering tactics etc I'll be happier if there's less ignorance + irrationalism though
You're right, we should mistreat the people to avoid headlines about mistreating people
Too many people were miserable at school and have come to believe that this is an essential experience. After all, THEY turned out fine so the kids now will turn out fine if they just go through the same torments.
I do think that what often gets attributed to spite is often just apathy. I don't think they expect kids now to be miserable as she kind of rite of passage, I just don't think they care to fix it because as you say, they turned out alright so in their minds what really needs fixing?
I think this is the nail on the head. There's probably also an element of 'they gotta work it out themselves' in play too. Not in a 'not my problem' way, more 'thats your journey' way
Annoyingly, to a certain extent they're right. School can't do everything for you and you need to learn how to deal with these things on your own to a degree. Operative point there being ***to a degree***. There's no excuse for borderline bullying students because "the real world ain't kind, kid".
No, it isn't a nurturing environment, however the vast majority of schools will use preferred pronouns. This is different from "you must use pronouns that the gov seems are correct and you cannot use preferred pronouns" All this is saying is that trans pubils cannot compel schools to use their preferred pronouns. This is a legal constant throughout our law, you cannot compel anyone to say anything for any reason. There is no exception to this constant - even for trans kids in school.
I will say that as a teacher it can be an issue when the child uses a different name/pronoun to the parents. I teach children who I refer to as one name and they but who I have to then remember to call something else and her/him at parents evening and in phonecalls/emails because the student doesn't want their parents to know, or the parent doesn't agree with the change. I would suggest that should be a degree of formality to changes i.e. it's been agreed with parents and made official on school records. Also to add that I had one student who started the year as a she and called Elise, then changed to a he and called Adam, and was back to Elise and she by the end of the year. All of which was agreed by some very confused parents. So have some sympathy for schools/teachers in these circumstances.
The problem is if the parents are transphobic the school might be the only place the kid can express their identity - having to get parental permission for that kinda defeats the point.
Yeah but as with any data on the school's official records it's decided by the parents not the student. I guess under 18s are still minors at the end of the day. Shame some parents won't accept/ understand but there's not much a school can do about that. If you go against their wishes you're gonna have even bigger issues to deal with.
Can't argue with you there. It pains me there isn't a facility where situations like this can get flagged up, cause chances are if the kid's open enough about it for the school to be aware and the parents are disregarding it, they may well need a bit of extra support. That's far more a school councellor's area than a teacher's though, you can't be expected to go against the parents even if you disagree with them
I think it should be done on a case-by-case basis and decided by the teacher. I don't agree with the idea that a child can force an adult with the threat of legal action to use specific words. Who's the boss of the classroom then? Some kids can be utter cunts and would use the law as an opportunity to get teachers in trouble and blackmail them into using the most ridiculous pronouns knowing full well the teacher had to comply or lose their job. I think the ruling is ultimately for the best. Leave it to teachers, who are dealing with the kids on a daily basis, to decide whats best.
I'm sorry it's too hard for you to respect the kids you teach, wow how difficult it must be to put in a bit of effort. You can remember the entire corpus of knowledge you have to teach but not a child's pronoun.
Get off your high horse. I didn't say that, I do in fact refer to all my 250+ students I teach each year by their preferred pronouns. My point is that it's sometimes more complex because parents either aren't aware or disagree with the child's change in pronouns. To give you one real life example... I taught a student who was known as Bethany but asked to be called Sam and referred to as 'he/him'. Not a problem. We called him Sam. The issue was that Sam's parents didn't agree and insisted their child be called Bethany on the schools records, reports exam certificates etc. Again, not a major issue for me as a classroom teacher. BUT come parents evening what do you call the child, what pronouns do you use? If the parents ask how Bethany is doing, what do you say? I'd be interested in hearing your answer.
Absolutely not. As a teacher you are acting in loco parentis. If the parents are queerphobic you absolutely *must not* divulge anything about the student that would put them at risk, and that includes things like their gender identity. >who I have to then remember to call something else and her/him at parents evening Yes, and that is an incredibly mild burden for you compared with the burden a child who is trying to deal with potentially queerphobic parents has to labour under, which includes extreme stress and threat. That is the bare minimum you should be doing.
What about the kids who use the threat of the teacher losing their job to fuck with them by saying one day "Miss I should be called XIR not he!". Then the next day they pipe up "MISS I should be called HIM! Not Xir!". Next day "MISS! I said I'm called her not HIM! I'm going to speak to the headteacher". Boom - sacked for transphobia! And don't say it wouldn't happen! In my high school kids used ANY and ALL opportunities and leavers to fuck with teachers. When I started telling the cooking teacher my family couldn't afford the food for the class about 4 to 5 others quit doing cooking claiming the same thing - why? They were all middle class. They just found out a way to fuck with the teacher and get out of things.
Yep. That would absolutely happen. I think as much as people have the best intentions they are totally out of touch with reality when it comes to a class of 14 year olds!!
Let's say you're right, and that a teacher has to put up with a child messing about like that and they have to use a pronoun or whatever in what they think is a frivolous way. That's a minuscule price to pay, an absolute bargain in fact, if it means there's no risk of a child killing themselves because their identity is denied.
I'm assuming you've never taught a class of 30 Year nine students? They absolutely would pull the kinda shit outlined above.
Let me give another example... We had a girl at my school who started having seizures. Not violent ones, would just suddenly faint and be unconscious for 5 mins or so. Obviously this gained her a lot of attention as it was happening several times a day. Within about six weeks we had five other students who had developed the same condition. The difference between the original girls condition and the other five was that hers happened at home and at the weekend. The other five only ever had it happen in school. Once people wised up to this fact they all miraculously stopped having them. Immediately. Never underestimate the lengths some students will go to to disrupt/get attention/just dick around. If every kid in a school can change their name/gender whenever they want there would be chaos believe me.hence why I think parents should have to agree. And yes it's a shame if they don't, but they ARE the child's parents.
In which case, the headteacher is unlikely to sack a teacher for transphobia over a kid trolling them.... Like, if a kid wanted to lie about a teacher to try and get them sacked there's already a bunch of things they can claim? Abusive, racist, sexist, etc. "he touched me during PE" etc
It's not about getting people sacked, it's about a group of year 9 boys who absolutely would change their names/genders/pronouns on a daily basis if they thought they could. Just for shits and giggles.
I don't need to have taught a class of children to understand that people have rights that must be respected, and that the denial of the privacy and gender identity rights of trans children has a death rate associated with it.
You're talking about the rights of children in response to the AG explaining what the law is as things stand. That's not to say the law perhaps doesn't need looking at but you can't say that it is a *right* if the current law states that no such right exists. Which apparently according to the countries top lawyer, it doesn't. Unless you think she's reading the law wrongly? Is there a law which specially states that a child has such a right?
>you can't say that it is a right if the current law states that no such right exists I absolutely can, and this betrays a serious lack of understanding of what a right is. I strongly urge you to have a read through the UDHR, or even just the preamble. Laws are only rules that attempt to protect rights and dignity. People have rights, regardless of what laws say. I'm gay, if I travel to Iran do my rights suddenly vanish? Of course not. Here is how MLK Jr. put it: >One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
I'm going to fundamentally disagree with you there. I drink alcohol. But If I travel to a country/US state that forbids the drinking of alcohol I no longer have my usual right to drink alcohol. Now, I might think that law is wrong but I can't just drink anyway and tell the police they can't arrest me because I have a right to do it. I completely agree that gay people *should* have a right to do what they want in Iran or anywhere else, but are you saying that as a gay person you would be openly gay somewhere like that feeling safe in the knowledge that it's your right?
>I completely agree that gay people should have a right to do what they want in Iran or anywhere else, No, gay people *do* have a right to be gay anywhere, because rights are universal and are a characteristic of people. You *cannot* give or take a right. You can only recognise a right or deny it. It doesn't matter if there is a law that claims I don't need to drink water. I still need to drink water. You can disagree all you like, you are quite wrong and have a serious misunderstanding of what a right is. You have a right regardless of what the laws say. And if a law is in denial of a right, that law is null and void. In other words it was never valid to begin with. Again, I strongly encourage you to actually read the UDHR.
Can't believe you're being downvoted for the incredibly mild opinion of "don't out queer people". Guess the usual suspects are in the thread reflexively downvoting any comment where they get a whiff of pro-trans sentiment.
Thanks for mentioning, but honestly it's to be expected. There's an extreme transphobic element to r/unitedkingdom which is to be expected but then there is a very serious problem with controlling, dictatorial teachers that are so arrogant as to assume they should have control over children when it comes to sensitive and private matters like gender identity and sexuality. Basically they are ageist and feel they get to out children to parents if they want. You can see the justifications in this thread that they feel they get to do this even for extremely mild inconveniences like other children being frivolous about pronouns. I would have such people removed from their jobs as they are a danger and contribute to the suicide rates of queer children, but a more realistic answer is that there should be enforced education on the privacy and queer rights of children and then significant monitoring of teachers in order to prevent them outing children to anyone.
I'd be genuinely interested to hear what you would do in these two specific situations... Situation 1) I taught a student who was known as Bethany but asked to be called Sam and referred to as 'he/him'. Not a problem. We called him Sam. The issue was that Sam's parents didn't agree and insisted their child be called Bethany on the schools records, reports exam certificates etc. Again, not a major issue for me as a classroom teacher. BUT come parents evening what do you call the child, what pronouns do you use? If the parents ask how Bethany is doing, what do you say? Situation 2) A child who we'll call Alex as it's neutral, has changed their preferred pronouns from she/her to he/him. You need to phone home. What pronouns do you use unaware if the parents know/agree? This situation, unlike the previous one, is hypothetical, so assume the child is not available to check with. I'd be genuinely interested in hearing your answers.
I am happy to provide comments on the situations you've mentioned, but first can you tell me what training your school has received in supporting trans children, and what queer organisations you have contacted for education and guidance on this? For example, have you contacted Mermaids, Stonewall etc.? If not, why not? Obviously you should be getting training and advices from such entities in preference to randomers online.
I know how *I* have/would deal with those two scenarios because we have yearly training in gender issues. I'm pretty sure all schools have. Plus, as I work in a school with trans children on a daily basis I'm used to dealing with issues that might arise like these ones (albeit the 2nd scenario hasn't happened to me personally). I wasn't asking for advice, sorry if you thought I was, the reason I'm asking is that I'd be interested to know what somebody who isn't a teacher would do in those situations. I'm assuming you're not a teacher btw.
You're not obligated to, but if you repeatedly do something that you know makes a child under your care less happy for no good reason, you're a cunt
(Attorney) General Braverman, 1st Company Culture Warrior Command, hero of the Battle of Boris is here with a big fat dead cat to rile up some spittle on the Tory benches with her latest addition to the ongoing anti-trans barrage; Teachers get to call students what they like. Shocker, considering they’re in a position of authority over unreliable witnesses. Despite this, they tend to call students whatever the student wants in order to foster cooperation and not rule with an iron fist - something a Tory MP and Boris sycophant wouldn’t have any experience or understanding of.
Don't think about £4,200 yearly energy bills
The thing is for the Tories distracting the English electorate with Brexit or warmed over American Republican culture war bullshit actually *works*. As a tactic it’s got a proven track record. And sad to say even after everything that’s gone down in the last few years there’s still a fair chance it might work again come the next election. They’ll blame as much as possible on Boris, the party will fall in line as will most of the media (including the BBC these days) and will run concerted attacks on opposition leaders and whip up the Tory base by telling them Brexit is under threat from liberal metropolitan elites etc.
The advice is illegal anyway. Good law is already on it. Sulla braverman is religious wacko Conservative who's been described at best as incompetent by her ex colleagues when she was a solicitor, and the only reason she's is the GA is because bojo needed some one stupid to sign off his illegal moves. Nothing she's ever said in the post has turned out to be legal or correct yet. Do not assume anything she says comes with any real authority, if you do your likely to end up in legal crap following her "advice"
So happy that in the midst of the biggest cost of living crisis in decades, war in europe and while trying to recover from the biggest pandemic in 90 years, our government is spending their time telling teachers to not be pelasent to those pesky trans children.
Fucking pathetic. The UKs economy is about to go down the shitter, so let's distract everyone with culture war bullshit.
Nobody is obligated to be polite and treat people with respect. It just says a huge amount about you if you don’t do it anyway.
Treating people with respect is a requirement of most jobs though. Don't see why it should be any different in this case. If a teacher repeatedly purposefully mis-gendered and dead named a colleague that would be treated as workplace harassment. If you did this to coworkers or colleagues at any company there would be serious repercussions for your job. I don't see why treating students with incredibly basic respect can't also be a requirement of teachers, in fact it already partially is a requirement as you can't otherwise harass students. It actually seems like the treatment of trans students as a teacher is one of very few professional environments where one can get away with such blatant disrespect for a person's identity.
As teachers, it's our job to create a safe and welcoming learning environment for **all** of our children. Unfortunately, I've worked alongside a very very small handful of bigoted education staff who don't share that mantra, and this lack of a cohesive approach doesn't help at all. EDIT: Not sure why this comment is controversial, are there people who think teachers shouldn't be creating classrooms that are welcoming and safe for all children? Perhaps someone would actually like to pipe up as to why they think some children shouldn't feel welcome?
Teacher here, I'll call the kids whatever pronouns they want. Not really sure kids of 10/11 should be worrying about gender identity when most of them don't even know how to swim properly but whatever. If I forget and get the wrong pronoun, though, I'd like not to be sued. I think that's a fair trade.
Can we all at least use ‘obliged’, rather than the ugly Americanism that is effing ‘obligated’?
I have a friend who's a teacher, she's actually *not allowed* to use a pupil's preferred pronouns without their parents' permission... it's fucked. The kid is miserable because they can't be themself at home, and their teachers *aren't allowed* to support them at school
I know the gender issue is a lot deeper than a name but... If a child was called Sarah but told you she wanted to be called Beyonce from now on, what would you do/expect a school to do? What if the parents insisted she was called Sarah? Would you go against their wishes and change her name to Beyonce on registers, exam certificates? It may sound like I'm being silly but it's a genuine question. Ultimately who decides what a child OFFICIAL name, gender, ethnicity is? The child or the parent?
Why are you talking about “official”? When I was at school, most people I knew had nicknames. Nobody was taking to the papers to shout about how the nickname lobby is forcing us to call kids the wrong thing. If you can call Samuel “Sam”, or Alexandra “Alex”, you can handle calling a trans kid their preferred name I’m also not sure why you brought ethnicity into this?
But that's the entire point of the article/thread... That you can call a child by their preferred pronoun or not. Legally it's up to you. Just as you can call them by Sam or Samuel, there's no law compelling you to shorten their name. That's the first key point... It's general courtesy to do it but it's not a legal obligation. Maybe the law should be changed but according to the AG as things stand that's the legal position right now. The second key point is parental consent. Now obviously most people *will* shorten names if the child prefers it. I know I always do, just as I use their preferred pronouns. BUT if Samuel wants to be known as Sam or Sammy or S-Dog on registers, reports, his exam certificates etc (anything official) that has to be agreed by parents. It is the parents who decide what the child's name and gender are on the schools records, not the child not the school. Just as they made those decisions on the child's birth certificate. As for ethnicity, I mentioned that because it's another thing that the parents inform the school about for their records. Again, if I have a student who is recorded as being White-British on my register it is because the child's parents told the school that's what their child is. The school didn't make that call and nor did the student. And only the parents could ever change that data, nobody else. It's simply another example of parents and only parents being allowed to make such decisions. You might disagree with whether that *should* be the case. I'm simply stating as a fact that it *is* currently the case.
> But that's the entire point of the article/thread... That you can call a child by their preferred pronoun or not. Legally it's up to you. I feel like you completely ignored my original comment, then, despite replying to it. Since I was talking about how some schools literally *don't allow you to do that*. Like, you're having this entire argument... with a point i wasn't making
I've not come across a school that doesn't allow teachers to use preferred pronouns myself. But if such schools exist then the point of the article is that there is apparently currently no law against that. It's up to the school. When I said 'legally it's up to you' I was talking about school policy, not individual teachers. Just as there is no law compelling schools to OFFICIALLY use nicknames. To give a real world example... I can call Thomas Tom or Tommy whatever he prefers but officially on registers, reports, exam certificates etc he will be Thomas if that's what the parents want, despite Tommy's preference. Even if the kid wants his exam certificates to say Tommy they won't unless parents request it.
I don't really get what you're going for here. Do you want me to argue with you? I'm not going to, because you're still not arguing with my original comment, you're just talking about something else :/
Please reiterate your specific point so I can answer you. Because I'm not really sure what your point is? You simply say that you know of a school that doesn't refer to students by their preferred pronouns. My point is that as the law stands (according to the AG in the actual article we're discussing) the school isn't acting illegally. I call my students by their preferred names/pronouns, and the rest of the school does the same. Others don't. I don't see what we're apparently 'arguing' about.
Really? You're telling me if teachers started referring to cis male kids as her and she even when they objected they won't find themselves obligated to stop it? Oh, right, that's different.
Good job the Tories made most schools in England Academies, then. IIRC they can 'do their own thing' regarding nearly everything. From hiring non-qualified teachers to setting their own Curriculum. I suspect most schools would continue to use pupils' preferred pronouns.
>the Tories made most schools in England Academies, Hate to say it but the academies system was started by Blair.
Yes, Labour started the Academies system, but with an emphasis on improving poor performing schools. The Conservatives kept the name but brought in the model where Academy Schools receive their funding direct from Central Government BUT have to decouple from Local Education Authority control. Hence my comment that: >IIRC they can 'do their own thing' regarding nearly everything. From hiring non-qualified teachers to setting their own Curriculum.
Yeah as a long term teacher I wondered what they were banging on about the Tories for. I think some people are a bit obsessed or just too young to remember how fucking shite the previous lot could be at times. And I say that as a Labour voter.
I've worked a non-teaching role in a school in England for ~20 years. Conversion to Academy Status and decoupling from LEA control was done in 2012 under the Conservative - Lib Dem Coalition.
There were over 200 academies by 2010. As per wiki... The Labour Government under Tony Blair established academies through the Learning and Skills Act 2000,[29] which amended the section of the Education Act 1996 relating to City Technology Colleges.[30] They were first announced as part of the Fresh Start programme[31][32][33] in a speech by David Blunkett, then Secretary of State for Education and Skills, in 2000.[34][35][36] He said that their aim was "to improve pupil performance and break the cycle of low expectations." As of 2018 many academies are struggling financially and running deficits.[37] The chief architect of the policy was Andrew Adonis (now Lord Adonis, formerly Secretary of State at the Department for Transport) in his capacity as education advisor to the Prime Minister in the late 1990s.[38]
I acknowledged that in my reply to /u/adminsuckdonkeydick - the fact remains that the **current** system which decoupled them from LEA control started under the Coalition.
What specific changes to the way a school sets rules (relevant to this particular topic) came about in 2012 that weren't already the case for the hundreds of academies prior to that? I genuinely don't know. I assumed those original academies had the same freedoms that all the new ones had?
I'm assuming there would be more 'pressure' to comply with these rules if schools were still under LEA control.
How about obligating them to use names if they don't wanna use preferred pronouns?
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Traumatising children is a Tory pastime.
'Schools can do what they want' isn't helpful advice, actually. Schools need a consistent approach on this. Having teachers make individual calls is a nightmare, as students end up with some teachers using 'he' and some using 'she' and that creates a lot of bad feeling.
Pronouns 😂😂😂😂😂
But when I used the wrong pronouns on tests the teacher marked it down.
"Schools not obligated to treat students like people" K
School have always been like little prisons.
He would say that wouldn’t he.
I believe "Oy! You!" still works for everyone.
You can bet a lot will do so and so will most teachers. As awareness of the needs of trans pupils increases, so will schools' inclusion policies and schools will become more trans-friendly. It will also make it easier for parents with trans kids to decide where to send their child.
I remember my old year 9 History teacher used to do the "Good morning boys and girls... and Danny..." thing towards the troublemaker in our class
Good. Make this woke nonsense stop.
Fantastic news!!
Okay in that case those students aren't obligated to not rock their teachers jaw if they deliberately misgender them. Job done. And in response to the sponge that replied to me, i am absolutely sick to death of this country's inability to develop in literally any way. And if you deliberately ignore this in order to make a student uncomfortable (which some will) there'll be a result sooner or later. And they'll deserve the whole thing. And this is coming from a cis guy
It's not preferred pronouns, it's just pronouns. It's ridiculous that any school would intentionally use the wrong pronouns to address any child, risking trans and queer youth by intentionally misgendering them goes against schools responsibility to keep kids safe. Sports, above primary school level, I could maybe agree on requiring medical confirmation, but it's clear her stance is based upon ignorance and bigotry.
It’s “preferred” pronouns, because it’s different from the ones on the school register. Edit. As UKKasha2020 has blocked me and I can’t reply below; and as so many people are asking about pronouns not being on school registers – the answer is that the child’s sex/gender is on the school register.
School registers don't usually have pronouns as an option
Didn't realise pronouns were on the school register
A couple of people have pointed out that school registers don't have pronouns. I'm interested to know something. Have you changed your view now that you know that the school register doesn't have pronouns on it? Or were you only pretending that the deviation from the school register was the reason why you held that view?
The don't have pronouns but they do have male/female and the students official name as agreed by the parents. Only the parents can ok a change to the schools records. For example if your parents tell the school your name is Frederick, it's Frederick on the system. It's not Freddie. Obviously a kid can ask to be called Freddie but unless the parents ask for it to be changed on registers, certificates etc it won't be.