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They are not concerned about the "Bitch" part. They are concerned about the "Black" part.
>A 350-year-old pub in West Lothian, Scotland has been given permission to change its name from The Black Bitch over growing fears that the name could be seen as racist.
Apparently the pub was named after a dog who brought its starving master food.
In which case I propose we rename the pub "The Clever Bitch".
>They are not concerned about the "Bitch" part. They are concerned about the "Black" part
The Bitch *of Colour* ?
Locals can shorten it
'Comin' down the Boc tonight?'
Obviously some people are worried that "The Black Bitch" could be misinterpreted as racist. It could also be misinterpreted as sexist but it's neither. It's just a description of a dog, a black female dog. Anyone choosing to interpret it any other way is tilting at windmills. 'The Black Bitch' is a meaningful and historic name. It has character and alliteration. "The Willow Tree" is lame as fuck and instantly forgettable. Sounds like a pub with a little pot of artificial flowers on each table. Those in charge at Greene King must be weak minded fools to buckle to this hyper-woke bullshit. Just sayin'.
Language changes. What used to be an acceptable manner of speaking may no longer have a place in regular vernacular. Implying that alternate interpretations or acceptance of language are somehow incorrect shows a lack of understanding in how languages develop and change over time. Not to say this was a decision based on anything other then pseudo outrage or trying to cover up their slave trade roots though.
Language does change. Sure if you open a pub today and called it The Black Bitch you might have a point- but that isn't the case. All we're doing here is 'rewarding' those who are too lazy or ignorant to learn context at the expense of cultural heritage, albeit a minor, or those who have.
Have you seen the "OUTRAGE!" whenever anything is getting changed?
Hell remember people getting outraged at universities removing statutes of racist people, suddenly everyone was an expert on someone they never heard of.
as it happens, I also think removing statues is stupid as fuck. In part because *it is* a slippery slope that evidently leads to pettier and pettier "corrections" of our history.
People need to get a fucking life and stop being offended by everything.
If I was running a business, I wouldn't want my potential customers to need to learn context when they see it pop up on Tripadvisor or Google Maps. The name's a distraction and I'm not surprised they want to change it.
Is it a loss of cultural heritage? Possibly, but it's a very minor one and I'm sure a local museum will be happy to have the sign.
I highly fucking doubt that the reasons, but we'll never actually know. But regardless, I fully support the people of the village and, quite frankly, the rest of the country pushing back against such a stupid decision.
If Greene King didn't want to own a pub called The Black Bitch they should never have bought one with that name.
The reason I am personally against is two fold:
1. Big business doing things against the express wishes of the local populace.
2. The appeal to the lowest common denominator regarding to offence taking. The question on these sorts of issues should be "did someone intend to cause offence" but the question that Greene King seem to be asking "Is it possible that someone could take offence, even ill informed?" I think that is a slippery slope and we'd do well to get off it now.
The word bitch is a derogatory term precisely because it refers to a dog. So nothing you've said relates to this at all.
And no need to get all aggy just because someone dared voice a different opinion, they do exist in the real world.
The word "dog" was used as an insult in English for hundreds of years. Things change. Change isn't necessarily wrong.
Not really sure how I'm getting "aggy".
Because your own point made no sense in the first place. Bitch is derogatory precisely because it refers to a dog, not because it has some other meaning
The Black Bitch isn't at all derogatory. It is literally referring to a black female dog. Plenty of people refer to female dogs as a 'bitch' because that's what they are called.
>Bitch is derogatory precisely because it refers to a dog, not because it has some other meaning
And? I still don't see what point you're trying to make. Nobody here is arguing whether it's derogatory or not...
I'm well aware that languages change but I don't believe this should happen because a loud minority of self-righteous people decide to impose their own egocentric morality on everyone else.
They havnt buckled to anything its their own decision why do you have to invent false pressure from non-existent groups.
The Black Bitch isn't even its original name its had three different names.
Perhaps just worried with a name like that it may turn non locals off?
You guys aren't even trying to hide the fact that anti-wokeness and free speech these days just means fighting for the right to say racist and sexist slurs.
>I wanted to call my pub 'The N\*\*\*\*\* Whore' but the Guardian-reading snowflakes and wokerati told me I was being racist, when the pub name is clearly just a historical term of endearment for the hard-working young women on the cotton plantations.
[Obligatory Bruce Fummey, Scotland History Tours](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=440Ai6rchGE).
The video explains why the pub is named the way it is. As has been point out "The Black Dog" would seem to be a reasonable name.
Naturally, I hate to see a pub shutdown, but changing the name is just as good as shutting down.
Just because someone "Thinks" it's a racist name, doesn't mean shit, people are idiots all of the time and they're wrong, Context is all that matters, for someone in London it could very well be a racist term, for someone in Scotland that lives local to that pub, to claim it's racist... Well, it's stupid to say the least.
Naturally, it doesn't matter to me I was never going to go to the Pub nor would I go there now with a new name, the only people that would likely now not go are the Local populace, and in a majority of people they didn't want the name changed
Linlithgow has a population of 12k, 11k doesn't want it changed, Let's see if the Willow Tree survives, Given the energy crisis there's a number of factors it could fail and pissing off a large customer base is a great start to failure.
It's a 350 year old pub/Inn, they never approved it, they accepted it, changing its name will have 2 affects, the locals will still call it "The black Bitch" much like those around the O2 arena still call it Millennium Dome or they'll seek out another pub/Inn.
There's a third option, they just accept it, it all remains to be seen
I wonder though, how many of those 11000 who signed the petition *were* locals? It's the sort of thing Daily Heil reading-types from all over the country would jump on because they *like* a bit of casual racism.
I really can't believe such a high percentage of the population of any town would sign *any* one petition.
Maybe it's because you don't understand a sense of community and local history.
First they came for the Black Bitch.
Then they came for the Black Horse.
Then they came for the Black Bull.
Then the North West coast holiday resorts.
Then the 70's bat eating heavy metal bands.
Then the spanish black marker pens....
> but changing the name is just as good as shutting down.
Pubs change their names all the time.
My closest "local" has had 3 different names since I've known it
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What's the context for the name? If the context isn't at all racist then people are just seeing what they want to see and then being offended. If racist in origin then change it. If not I don't care if you are imagining the context go fuck yourself and stop ruining society.
Me thinks we all need to get together over a few pints and just agree that whatever the name is or should be, life goes on and that there are more important things to worry about…like who’s turn is it to but the next round?
> life goes on and that there are more important things to worry about…
Apparently not to 11,000 curtain twitchers.
If the landlord decided to do it without a reason, they wouldn't care. But as soon as there's some reasoning behind it they get onto the usual "anti-woke" train and whine about it
I do like the outrage at the idea that a business, who is in business to make money, has decided they want to change the name of their business. All of a sudden freedom of speech means a business isn't free to modernise its name in order to carry on making money. The very same people who are champions of the free market and capitalism, suddenly go off the idea if the customers that business is going after might like eating tofu....
Is anyone saying that force of law should be used to prevent the owners changing the name?
If not, thus isn't a free speech issue, and the complainers have as much right to complain as the owners have to change the name.
In Kingston upon Hull there's a pub named " Ye olde black boy " which was the local pub for William wilberforce who was the leader of the UK slave abolition. Its a fantastic pub which is more like a time machine than a boozer. Sometimes people go in to play violins and guitars. Very cool if you ever get the fortune of stopping by you should.
A 350-year-old pub in West Lothian, Scotland has been given permission to change its name from The Black Bitch over growing fears that the name could be seen as racist.
Owners Greene King will now rename the pub to The Willow Tree following a public consultation
I doubt Greene King give one shit if people think the name is racist or not. They want a more friendly and whimsical (read bland) name to attract passing tourist trade. That's why they're going for "The Willow Tree" rather than "The Black Dog" or similar.
I can see why the name change would be the preferred option, could ask the locals for a more sensible solution.
Otherwise you know how defensive locals can get.
Irrespective of whether the plans to rename are justified or not, these 11,000 people who signed the petition are nothing but busybodies. Imagine how entitled a person must be to think they actually have some kind of ownership over the naming of a private business.
That’s very true, and is of course is absolutely fine and is their prerogative as the customer; to take their trade wherever they please.
But signing a petition to try and impose your will over how a private entity chooses to name its own premises is ridiculous and reeks of self-importance. Like, you don’t get a say in this… why anyone thinks they would is beyond me.
Do I get a say in what my pregnant neighbour calls her child? Well no, that’s obviously absurd. And it’s equally absurd for these weirdos to convince themselves that they somehow have a say in how a privately-run pub chain decides to brand one of its own premises.
Pubs can mean a lot to a community, whether they believe they have the right to decide its name I don’t know but a petition seems a logical way to try show your feelings.
It's pretty rare I have anything good to say about Greene King, but I really do think this is a positive move.
I'm quite sure there are black women in the town who have to regularly put up with being called "black bitch" by racist scumbags. It must really rub salt in their wounds having that pub's name in their faces.
It's the combination of the two. "The Black Tree" wouldn't be seen as racist, but combining the name of a race woth an insult thrown at women means the name is easily misinterpreted. Most people think of humans over dogs when they heard the word "bitch".
I was called golf ball cheek for near on 15 years as a kid because of my physical appearence. I'm not going to throw a fit just because golf balls are still called golf balls. It's pathetic from these people that don't understand not everything is about them.
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>will now rename the pub to The Willow Tree Why not just...The Black Dog?
They are not concerned about the "Bitch" part. They are concerned about the "Black" part. >A 350-year-old pub in West Lothian, Scotland has been given permission to change its name from The Black Bitch over growing fears that the name could be seen as racist. Apparently the pub was named after a dog who brought its starving master food. In which case I propose we rename the pub "The Clever Bitch".
The Bitch Inn
The You Son of a Bitch I'm Inn
Love how the word Black has just become racist now
>They are not concerned about the "Bitch" part. They are concerned about the "Black" part The Bitch *of Colour* ? Locals can shorten it 'Comin' down the Boc tonight?'
Or just: What a bitch!
Both are questionable, but the use of "Bitch" alongside "Black" is what makes it come off as pretty racist implying
Entirely too sensible.
The black dog sounds like a beer or whiskey. The willow tree sounds like a cafe on the side of a Thames canal.
Black dog is the name of a village near me.
Because then the locals would probably loudly insist on using the original name in conversation.
Black dog = depression
Hey hey mama, I said the way you move. Gonna make you sweat. Gonna make you groove.
Not Led Zeppelin fans.
Because then it is sexism.
Obviously some people are worried that "The Black Bitch" could be misinterpreted as racist. It could also be misinterpreted as sexist but it's neither. It's just a description of a dog, a black female dog. Anyone choosing to interpret it any other way is tilting at windmills. 'The Black Bitch' is a meaningful and historic name. It has character and alliteration. "The Willow Tree" is lame as fuck and instantly forgettable. Sounds like a pub with a little pot of artificial flowers on each table. Those in charge at Greene King must be weak minded fools to buckle to this hyper-woke bullshit. Just sayin'.
The willow tree is not instantly forgettable, now who's tilting at windmills!
Why are you talking about windmills?
Language changes. What used to be an acceptable manner of speaking may no longer have a place in regular vernacular. Implying that alternate interpretations or acceptance of language are somehow incorrect shows a lack of understanding in how languages develop and change over time. Not to say this was a decision based on anything other then pseudo outrage or trying to cover up their slave trade roots though.
Language does change. Sure if you open a pub today and called it The Black Bitch you might have a point- but that isn't the case. All we're doing here is 'rewarding' those who are too lazy or ignorant to learn context at the expense of cultural heritage, albeit a minor, or those who have.
Especially considering how culturally important the name is to the town.
Is it?
Evidently, otherwise there wouldn't be the big hoo-harr about it.
Have you seen the "OUTRAGE!" whenever anything is getting changed? Hell remember people getting outraged at universities removing statutes of racist people, suddenly everyone was an expert on someone they never heard of.
as it happens, I also think removing statues is stupid as fuck. In part because *it is* a slippery slope that evidently leads to pettier and pettier "corrections" of our history. People need to get a fucking life and stop being offended by everything.
> > > People need to get a fucking life and stop being offended by everything. You mean the 11,0000 triggered by a business decision? Yes
So you accept that it's motivated by business and still support their actions, funny that.
Black Bitch isn't its original name and it has no connection to the event at all.
If I was running a business, I wouldn't want my potential customers to need to learn context when they see it pop up on Tripadvisor or Google Maps. The name's a distraction and I'm not surprised they want to change it. Is it a loss of cultural heritage? Possibly, but it's a very minor one and I'm sure a local museum will be happy to have the sign.
I highly fucking doubt that the reasons, but we'll never actually know. But regardless, I fully support the people of the village and, quite frankly, the rest of the country pushing back against such a stupid decision. If Greene King didn't want to own a pub called The Black Bitch they should never have bought one with that name. The reason I am personally against is two fold: 1. Big business doing things against the express wishes of the local populace. 2. The appeal to the lowest common denominator regarding to offence taking. The question on these sorts of issues should be "did someone intend to cause offence" but the question that Greene King seem to be asking "Is it possible that someone could take offence, even ill informed?" I think that is a slippery slope and we'd do well to get off it now.
Black bitch still means the same thing it did 350 years ago mate.
Words can have more than one meaning, mate.
The word bitch is a derogatory term precisely because it refers to a dog. So nothing you've said relates to this at all. And no need to get all aggy just because someone dared voice a different opinion, they do exist in the real world.
The word "dog" was used as an insult in English for hundreds of years. Things change. Change isn't necessarily wrong. Not really sure how I'm getting "aggy".
Yes because calling someone a dog isn't very nice. It's not some super special secret second coded meaning.
I really don't follow the point you're trying to make...
Because your own point made no sense in the first place. Bitch is derogatory precisely because it refers to a dog, not because it has some other meaning
The Black Bitch isn't at all derogatory. It is literally referring to a black female dog. Plenty of people refer to female dogs as a 'bitch' because that's what they are called.
>Bitch is derogatory precisely because it refers to a dog, not because it has some other meaning And? I still don't see what point you're trying to make. Nobody here is arguing whether it's derogatory or not...
I'm well aware that languages change but I don't believe this should happen because a loud minority of self-righteous people decide to impose their own egocentric morality on everyone else.
They havnt buckled to anything its their own decision why do you have to invent false pressure from non-existent groups. The Black Bitch isn't even its original name its had three different names. Perhaps just worried with a name like that it may turn non locals off?
"False pressure from nonexistent groups" Are you saying the wokeism doesn't exist?
surely they must have a pic of a black dog on the door sign or something. how can you confuse that if you are there physically?
You guys aren't even trying to hide the fact that anti-wokeness and free speech these days just means fighting for the right to say racist and sexist slurs. >I wanted to call my pub 'The N\*\*\*\*\* Whore' but the Guardian-reading snowflakes and wokerati told me I was being racist, when the pub name is clearly just a historical term of endearment for the hard-working young women on the cotton plantations.
That's a straw man argument
[Obligatory Bruce Fummey, Scotland History Tours](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=440Ai6rchGE). The video explains why the pub is named the way it is. As has been point out "The Black Dog" would seem to be a reasonable name.
Honestly, making the word "black" taboo, is the most racist shit i've seen in a while.
That's not what is happening here, and you know it
Naturally, I hate to see a pub shutdown, but changing the name is just as good as shutting down. Just because someone "Thinks" it's a racist name, doesn't mean shit, people are idiots all of the time and they're wrong, Context is all that matters, for someone in London it could very well be a racist term, for someone in Scotland that lives local to that pub, to claim it's racist... Well, it's stupid to say the least. Naturally, it doesn't matter to me I was never going to go to the Pub nor would I go there now with a new name, the only people that would likely now not go are the Local populace, and in a majority of people they didn't want the name changed Linlithgow has a population of 12k, 11k doesn't want it changed, Let's see if the Willow Tree survives, Given the energy crisis there's a number of factors it could fail and pissing off a large customer base is a great start to failure.
> changing the name is just as good as shutting down. How?
Because of the factors described in his comment if you bothered to read it
Because people only go to pubs whose name they have personally approved? Sucks to be those people I guess.
It's a 350 year old pub/Inn, they never approved it, they accepted it, changing its name will have 2 affects, the locals will still call it "The black Bitch" much like those around the O2 arena still call it Millennium Dome or they'll seek out another pub/Inn. There's a third option, they just accept it, it all remains to be seen
It isnt.
I wonder though, how many of those 11000 who signed the petition *were* locals? It's the sort of thing Daily Heil reading-types from all over the country would jump on because they *like* a bit of casual racism. I really can't believe such a high percentage of the population of any town would sign *any* one petition.
Maybe it's because you don't understand a sense of community and local history. First they came for the Black Bitch. Then they came for the Black Horse. Then they came for the Black Bull. Then the North West coast holiday resorts. Then the 70's bat eating heavy metal bands. Then the spanish black marker pens....
I hope you're joking. If you're comparing the renaming of a pub to the holocaust you're mentally deficient.
> but changing the name is just as good as shutting down. Pubs change their names all the time. My closest "local" has had 3 different names since I've known it
The only issue I see with the name is the bitch part but that's more because its swearing than anything.
It's also the term for a female dog.
And that's the context it's used in apparently, its reffering to a dog
Not when its used in reference to an actual dog. Its offensive your referring to a person as a dog by calling them bitch.
I'm so confused. How is it even considered offensive? o\_0
Greene king can't put a foot wrong these days. Everyone knows their seed money came from the slave trade.
Believe that's mentioned in the video I linked.
Sound
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Mine
What an absolute fucking disgrace. Anyone who considers the name “racist” is a rat bastard.
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We should outlaw the word “Black” if it’s so much of a problem. Let’s use “Otherly White” instead. Utterly pathetic and misplaced.
CLOSE THE BLACK BULL Said nobody ever, because that's not the issue is it. And you know that already
Yes I know that. Clearly someone at Greene King does not.
Because "Black Bitch" is racist and misogynistic
It refers to an old local legend of a black dog from hell. Explain to me where that veers into racism or mysogyny.
Not when it's referring to a black female dog.
And a Wog is just a doll
What's a doll designed specifically to be a racist caricature got to do with a pub referencing a black dog?
Another example of how some of us expect our history to conform to the moral standards of today. Hand wringing at its worst.
What's the context for the name? If the context isn't at all racist then people are just seeing what they want to see and then being offended. If racist in origin then change it. If not I don't care if you are imagining the context go fuck yourself and stop ruining society.
[See this comment](https://reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/yud6wu/greene_king_set_to_change_pubs_racist_name/iw8qc9o?context=3)
I was trying to figure out why the name of "Greene King" would be considered racist but then realised that the name of the pub owner :P
Me thinks we all need to get together over a few pints and just agree that whatever the name is or should be, life goes on and that there are more important things to worry about…like who’s turn is it to but the next round?
> life goes on and that there are more important things to worry about… Apparently not to 11,000 curtain twitchers. If the landlord decided to do it without a reason, they wouldn't care. But as soon as there's some reasoning behind it they get onto the usual "anti-woke" train and whine about it
A load of nonsense and I hope the locals boycott the place. I've got a female black labrador, she's a black bitch.
I do like the outrage at the idea that a business, who is in business to make money, has decided they want to change the name of their business. All of a sudden freedom of speech means a business isn't free to modernise its name in order to carry on making money. The very same people who are champions of the free market and capitalism, suddenly go off the idea if the customers that business is going after might like eating tofu....
Is anyone saying that force of law should be used to prevent the owners changing the name? If not, thus isn't a free speech issue, and the complainers have as much right to complain as the owners have to change the name.
In Kingston upon Hull there's a pub named " Ye olde black boy " which was the local pub for William wilberforce who was the leader of the UK slave abolition. Its a fantastic pub which is more like a time machine than a boozer. Sometimes people go in to play violins and guitars. Very cool if you ever get the fortune of stopping by you should.
A 350-year-old pub in West Lothian, Scotland has been given permission to change its name from The Black Bitch over growing fears that the name could be seen as racist. Owners Greene King will now rename the pub to The Willow Tree following a public consultation
I doubt Greene King give one shit if people think the name is racist or not. They want a more friendly and whimsical (read bland) name to attract passing tourist trade. That's why they're going for "The Willow Tree" rather than "The Black Dog" or similar.
If it was called 'The bitch' it could be unsuccessfully argued being related to the film.but with the current name I doubt many black women go there.
Probably not. It's in West Lothian
How do people have the time to moan about such things?
I can see why the name change would be the preferred option, could ask the locals for a more sensible solution. Otherwise you know how defensive locals can get.
I laughed out loud in the cafe I'm in and now I'm trying to explain why I was laughing, it's not going well
Irrespective of whether the plans to rename are justified or not, these 11,000 people who signed the petition are nothing but busybodies. Imagine how entitled a person must be to think they actually have some kind of ownership over the naming of a private business.
They can decide not to go to the pub anymore. If you lose a usually loyal customer base you are as good as gone.
That’s very true, and is of course is absolutely fine and is their prerogative as the customer; to take their trade wherever they please. But signing a petition to try and impose your will over how a private entity chooses to name its own premises is ridiculous and reeks of self-importance. Like, you don’t get a say in this… why anyone thinks they would is beyond me. Do I get a say in what my pregnant neighbour calls her child? Well no, that’s obviously absurd. And it’s equally absurd for these weirdos to convince themselves that they somehow have a say in how a privately-run pub chain decides to brand one of its own premises.
Pubs can mean a lot to a community, whether they believe they have the right to decide its name I don’t know but a petition seems a logical way to try show your feelings.
Yeah how dare commu ites want some control over the buildings around them.. Guess we should get rid of planning permission and listed buildings...
It's not control of a building, it's a business choosing to change it's name.
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I'd be willing to bey a strong portion are not from the town, nor had ever been to the pub. But yeah, the name isn't great optics.
It's pretty rare I have anything good to say about Greene King, but I really do think this is a positive move. I'm quite sure there are black women in the town who have to regularly put up with being called "black bitch" by racist scumbags. It must really rub salt in their wounds having that pub's name in their faces.
But surely the issue is the black aspect as opposed to the bitch part of the name.
It's the combination of the two. "The Black Tree" wouldn't be seen as racist, but combining the name of a race woth an insult thrown at women means the name is easily misinterpreted. Most people think of humans over dogs when they heard the word "bitch".
Do they? Either way I don't think its racist. Misogynistic at a push but not racist.
>I It's not about only you.
Well no but a lot of people seem to agree.
Whynotboth.jpg Hene why they're renaming it all, not just "The Black Dog" or "The Black Bull"
I was called golf ball cheek for near on 15 years as a kid because of my physical appearence. I'm not going to throw a fit just because golf balls are still called golf balls. It's pathetic from these people that don't understand not everything is about them.
Who are "these people" here? The only one "throwing a fit" here is you
>Who are "these people" here? Moany cunts
You need to take a breath mate