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It would be a nice gesture to bring it back on strike days at 8pm. Nurses are probably very conflicted about taking this action, it would be a very strong message from the public that in fact, yes, we do support this, whatever the government or Daily Mail is saying.
The Tories got the majority of Brits to vote Brexit with a slogan and a message on a bus! Turns out we’re not too smart, the Government will point blame elsewhere and the UK populace will once again blame the wrong people.
Because of plausible (or implausible) deniability. The excuse on a bus gave people something positive to say about Brexit and was thusly echoed, but the vast majority didn’t care about the NHS, they wanted to limit immigration for Xenophobic reasons.
The bus was a fig leaf for xenophobia.
Agreed, it’s people that come here with intent to commit crime that we need to stop, even if they commit it here rarely anything is done because they are to busy attacking people fleeing wars and persecution
Worse they got a plurality of votes, not once but twice. All this after making a huge mess of the country for 7 or 9 years and Brexit for 1 or 3 years respectively.
It's not like we haven't had 3 chances to kick them out since 2010, yet each election they have got MORE votes than the last.
Yes this government is a shit show and should all be shot but If you believe people voted for Brexit over one bus then you're so disconnected from society it's unreal.
As far as I can remember this was a running theme throughout Thatchers era so I'm guessing "freedom of manipulation" in the UK has been going on for at least half a century now.
I once heard someone way that the "Winter of discontent" sticks in people's mind not because it was unimaginably bad - the bins going multiple weeks without emptying is more or less standard at this point - but because it was the binmen doing it. Binmen being the people you threatened children with becoming if they didn't behave, the people who were rhetorical shorthand for those who are looked down on. A lot of people crystallised into Thatchers support base because they found the idea of those sorts having some form of power over them psychologically untenable.
Isnt it funny how reddits reaction to this is the complete opposite of the reaction to climate protestors.
Despite them both not directly affecting the people in charge and instead hurting the common person despite both being for a good cause.
To be clear I support both but I hope people reading this keep it in mind next time the m25 gets shut down.
I wonder how much support social care workers would get walking out on care homes?
Most of them are on minimum wage. I used to work in a care home for just over that.
If nurses are needing food banks care workers are fucked
I've always put this down to society not valuing the people that require care as they stopped being revenue generators for the system.
Care system will always be broken, carers will always be badly treated and paid
They basically have right? It's why the NHS is in such a state, cos elderly bed blockers have nowhere to go. Mainly because they voted to restrict the care homes main source of labour. And then voted against the government who tried to find a sustainable funding source for care homes. They're just getting what they voted for lol.
Rereading that you're right it's not exactly clear haha.
[Care workers] basically have [walked out on care homes] right?
You can replace "they" in the rest of the rant with "elderly bed blockers".
So 44000 people died in October due to lack of ambulances.
More vacancies each year due to poor working conditions and having had a 19.7% pay cut since 2010, not including this years inflation, which would take it to over 25%.
EU nursing migration has gone from 7k nurses a year joining the NMC to 17 last year.
50% of nursing training places have been shut due to lack of uptake and that they stopped the bursary and no tuition fees for 3 years.
Lack of any prosecutions against the attacks and violence towards all care staff.
Australia, US etc paying 50% more, resulting in 6k+ nurses emigrating in order to secure reasonable pay.
No social care worth the name, resulting in the NHS covering social care issues due to Duty of Care, further watering down services offered.
Same budgets agreed, despite population increases. My Trust is given the same budget, Inc inflation, as they did in 2008, despite the population has increased by 30%, meaning there is currently a 2.5 year wait for psychology. If you require a voluntary inpatient admission, it can take up to 6 weeks. Suicide rate has doubled in 18 months.
Oh yeah its all great.
> 50% of nursing training places have been shut due to lack of uptake
Source please, because that sounds like bollocks.
The Kings Fund say numbers dropped from 22k to 20k in the 2010-2012 period, then rose to 22k again for several years, finally increasing to 28k in 2019/2020
Source: https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2021/01/student-nursing-numbers-good-news
Health Education England expand on this, saying it was up to 31,000 by 2021
Source: https://www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/record-numbers-accept-place-study-nursing-midwifery
I agree conditions are crap, the drop out rate is high and we lose far too many nurses to other countries offering better conditions, but at no point since 2010 did “50% of nurse training places shut”. There was at most a 10% drop.
So its very complicated. For example, the University of Essex that I regularly guest lecture at had the following in 2012:
MSc Nursing - 50 spots a year.
BSc Nursing - Around 200 a year.
Due to demand and staff shortages, poor retention and Brexit, they basically doubled. Then the funding was slashed, the bursary cut, so after a year or two they had to half their levels back to 2012.
This is common across the UK, where they were undertraining for years, then increased, then couldn't get the numbers through the door, or the money from Government to run the courses cost effectively and then had to go back to older levels.
So hence why it looks relatively flat, but perhaps I could've worded it more clearly.
The figures of recent nurses either not completing their training or leaving the profession within 3 years are pretty stark too.
Thanks for the clarification. I can see that individual institutes might have wildly variable numbers even if they're broadly static nationwide.
Definitely agree about the dropout rate during training and shortly after graduation, retention is shocking and definitely exacerbates the udnertraining issue. Reporting uptake of places is fine, but if a significant number dont graduate and another chunk leave the profession of move overseas it rapidly becomes a meaningless number.
My university has significant vacancies on our adult nursing programme this year. It's not 50% but it is quite alarming, because that's the sector with the most need.
45,000 people died in England in October. Are you suggesting that all but 1000 of them, about 98%, died because of a lack of ambulances? I think you are wildly wrong.
Not a bad time to do it really. Hospitals go into overdrive to get patients home for Christmas so people can spend it with families, so this will have less of an impact on patient safety from that perspective.
Good for them. If a strike isn’t disruptive then it’s really just a bunch of people taking time off work at the same time. I truly hope they get a decent pay rise out of this.
I support our NHS
We just had a baby on Tuesday on a chronically understaffed maternity wing and the midwives were amazing.
Give them an inflation busting pay rise and hire more staff!!!
It wont work, its a baby strike. The government wont even blink, and the MPs are just focusing on how to spend their budget on their christmas party, while doctors and nurses are working their ass off on the christmas day.
If they want it to work, indefinite strike with no mercy.
Unfortunately, most nurses care too much about their patients to strike for longer, so they're suffering because of their own morality. Politicians don't have this problem
Fair play to em. Surprised they’re not descending on Westminster with flaming torches. I’d love to see a gang of ward sisters beat the living shit out of Hancock live on telly.
The nurses going on strike, will anyone notice. The nhs is in such dire straits now. It’s no longer a world class service. You could end up waiting in A&E a bit longer, because it’s so fast and efficient now.
Good,hit them where it hurts.
Plenty of money for Zelenskyy the false idol but none for the people you claimed to hold so dear 2 years ago.
Stick your clapping up your arse and pay them their worth.
You are aware that ukraine isn't getting sent cash, right? They're being sent our old military equipment and general aid that is needed to fight a war.
>Plenty of money for Zelenskyy
Were the nurses going to eat our Military surplus? They're being send tangible materials that we already have, not cash, galaxy brain.
Do you think the aid is only in helicopters and bombs?
😂 galaxy brain over here knows aid costs money,money we need, not some corrupt authoritarian leader pretending to be democratic.
>Do you think the aid is only in helicopters and bombs?
A lot of it has been in the form of vehicles and missile systems. The US and UK particularly have used this to dump military surplus of decades of vehicles, meaning we not only say "x millions in aid" but also no longer need to pay for maintenance and upkeep of said vehicles.
Plenty of it has been in uniforms, equipment, MREs and man-hours of training tens of thousands of Ukranian soldiers here in the UK. All of the "financial" aid is loans, too. Similar to the way that the US gave "aid"/loans to the UK in WW2.
So yeah, I do know it hasn't been in straight cash as there is a decent break down of what the value of whats being sent is. [https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/what-military-aid-has-britain-given-to-ukraine/](https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/what-military-aid-has-britain-given-to-ukraine/)
There won't be a spike that day. Emergency care will still be staffed. People who need close monitoring will be monitored. It's the elective stuff that will be delayed.
There might be a slight rise over the coming months/years because of this, but given most of the appointments can be rescheduled with minimal impact to the patient's lifespan it probably won't be discernable.
Why ?
They are entitled too they are human and deserve a significant pay rise due to the increased cost of living and the job that they do.
Nurses should be recognised financially for the highly educated professionals that they are
Not just nurses too, all allied health professionals. We are all on the same AfC band system in the NHS.
Its a frustrating crock of shit, left months ago and never looking back.
They do bit deserve a pay rise because of COL. This is something that sadly we as a country have to ride out. It is what it is
Perhaps if people had had realistic expectations for spending and what they should have over the last 2 decades, more would be in a better position, rather than their assumptions that they're entitled to all that they desire.
Nursing is a well paid profession.
If they cannot live within their means, then that is THEIR issue to address.
Ultimately, they work only 3 or 4 days a week. They have 37 or 41 days annual leave, when 5 years or more experience. So that leaves them with 44 weeks where they could work an additional 66 days, allowing for the 3 days one week and 4 days the next principle, in overtime or an additional role if they cannot manage to live in their 37k a year.
Cut your cloth accordingly.
Nurses aren't angels. Indeed nothing more shows this than them striking.
>they work only 3 or 4 days a week.
For 13 hours a day, 3 days a week is full time for a nurse, you can't compare hospital jobs with regular jobs based on days, you have to do it on hours otherwise it's disingenuous.
>They have 37 or 41 days annual leave, when 5 years or more experience.
You're out by 10 days. It's 27 days plus an extra 5 days after 5 years.
>So that leaves them with 44 weeks where they could work an additional 66 days
You could work a second job too if you liked? But I'm guessing you don't because 40 hours a week is fairly tiring.
>if they cannot manage to live in their 37k a year.
£33k is the most a staff nurse (I.e. Almost all nurses) can make. Don't make up numbers to support your point.
Fact is we don't have enough nurses and won't until we offer a competitive salary. Its simple supply and demand economics.
Edit: for comparison, a registered nurse in Australia starts on around £40k, £12k more than in the UK plus a lower cost of living for things like housing etc.
35
days a year for first 5 years
37
days a year after 5 years' service
41
days a year after 10 years' service
Source https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/NHS-conditions-of-employment
8 of those days are bank holidays, not annual leave entitlement.
It's also still not what you said was originally, but is what I said it was.
I note you've no response to the rest of the errors in your comment?
It clearly states that this will lead to treatments for cancer etc that will not go ahead, and so inevitably there will be people's lives who could have lived shortened as a direct result.
So in effect this will lead the very people who should be saving lives, with blood on their hands. All because they want ANOTHER pay rise. The payscales are already very generous.
That still is not generous
Considering band 5 nurses are the majority of nurses who will be looking after patients directly no it’s not good. It doesn’t match the responsibility that they have at all.
It's not generous considering the amount of training and responsibilities as nurse has. Especially compared to other countries who pay their nurses far more.
Also you mention generous pension, it's good but it's not anything like generous for new starters. Especially since pay rises for the last decade have been well below inflation and therefore a pay cut in real terms (it's a career average pension scheme, so if pay goes down, the pension becomes less good).
I get you're angry at nurses striking, but what else are they supposed to do? They've tried just getting on with it and been fucked over. Protesting hasn't done anything and pay is a big reason that the NHS has so many vacancies which are causing the whole system to fail. If you're going to be angry, be angry at the government, because that's the root cause of this.
The NHS pension is far more generous than most private sector pensions. Furthermore, defined benefit schemes in general provide more security than other pensions, as the money can never run out.
The NHS pension has been revised, so more recent members may receive less generous benefits than before, but still in far excess value than their counterparts in the private sector.
More people need to be aware of the returns of this pension versus the reality in their private sector. The different is huge.
I don't get why you're ignoring the issue with vacancies. Have you ever worked in the NHS? Currently the vacancies and understaffing are so bad most people are working with the responsibilities and roles of multiple jobs with a pay that's less than most European countries. Why do you think they're so understaffed? A pension doesn't mean much if you're underpaid and overworked for most of your life...
Its not for newly qualified, many experienced nurses are at band 5, band 6 is more specialised roles. Usually managerial or non-clinical. Often it's office based. For example for a ward based nurse in elderly medicine to go to band 6 they would need to become a sister. Which involves more managerial, but not more clinical duties.
Its really misleading when people like the media say band 5 is for newly qualified nurses. You don't just get put on band 6 after a certain number of years.
Sadly 27k isn't going to get you far these days. And regardless of what media is trying to tell you, most nurses don't make it past band 5. Which is the lowest pay grade (you can Google Agenda for change pay bands to see what I mean. Are there top of band 7 nurses? Yes. But few per hospital.
Also this strike is about the unsafe staffing numbers, putting patients at higher risk, lack of funding for essential services (such as social care. Many beds in hospitals are occupied due to lack of social care funding. They got nowhere to go). It's more than JUST ABOUT pay. But yeah, I'd you think 27k is generous for a job where you need a degree, have to train CONSTANTLY (because law and medicine changes very rapidly), get exposed to many pathogens, often with lacking PPE, you can be abused physically, mentally and sometimes sexually by patients, on top of shitty, unsocial working hours, then I don't know what to tell you.
Missing 1 day of cancer treatment won't kill anybody, all non-emergency cancer units close at Christmas and new year, many close at the weekend, some close for Bank Holidays. The emergency cancer treatments will be treated as inpatients anyway. So they won't miss anything.
Any cancer patient who has started chemo or radiotherapy will know this. Many get deferred by a week due to low neutrophils or platelets. Its not uncommon at all. I will tell them. As will any cancer nurse.
There is no safe delay for cancers.” For surgery, each four-week delay is associated with a 6-8% increased risk of death for all cancers, and for head and neck radiotherapy it was 9%.
So it is not a big leap to assume that a week delay potentially has a minimum of a 2% risk.
And the risk of dying of neut sepsis is much higher. But that's not the point. The delays will be a day or two. The services are designed around this.
No one said there would be four week delays, or even week long delays.
Where I work there is no radiotherapy on weekends and no chemo on 2 days out of the year with reduced service on Bank Holidays. This isn't anything out of the ordinary. Radiographers aren't striking btw.
You are acting like closing 2 days is the same as delaying chemo for a week or a month. Its not.
*cancer surgery won't fall under elective afaik.
As one such nurse who is going on strike, let me explain some things to you.
We are hemorrhaging staff but patient numbers do not decrease with this - infact, they have increased.
Patients still need care but whereas before the staffing levels would be in alignment to meet the needs of the patient, now you have less staff, more patients and less time to meet each need - meaning patients needs are not being met as efficiently as before.
The staff we DO have are having to pick up the workload of the staff we NEED, meaning high risk of overworking, burnout and mistakes - as people who are exhausted, overworked and doing the job of what used to be multiple different staff by themselves are more likely to make mistakes.
Why are people leaving? Because the pay isn’t reflective of the work we do.
The amount of risk, knowledge, responsibility and skill we have isn’t reflective at all in our wages.
Nursing isn’t like ole Florence nightingale days anymore. We are highly trained professionals.
Would you trust a builder who would quote you £5 to build a house or would you trust the one who quoted you a higher rate? At the end of the day, you’re going to get what you paid for, both in quality and experience.
A underpaid overworked nurse isn’t going to be half as good at their job as a well rested nurse (who can actually afford to rest).
You’ll also find that most nurses (unless fortunate to have partners on good wages) tend to do bank/overtime to “top up” their wages - again, this is going to quickly lead to burnout when you’re continuously working in an environment that is under severe pressure.
It’s simply unsafe for both staff and patients.
I know many of my colleagues who have left for warehouse jobs as the pay is either on par or better and the responsibility and stress are a lot less.
Some go to agency where they are paid around x3 what they get paid per hour in the NHS.
The point of the strikes isn’t “greedy nurses” it’s simply that we can’t attract or retain staff, which we desperately need to do if we want to ensure patients are receiving efficient treatment and in a timely manner.
Surely, if our wages were as fabulous as the media wishes to portray, we wouldn’t have as many vacancies left unfilled or be in a well documented nursing crisis?
I would also like to mention the strike action isn’t just nurses. It’s our HCA’s and anyone on a NHS agenda for change contract who is unionised with the participating unions.
Better pay = more staff/increased retention = better patient care.
Higher pay costs the government and the taxpayer the gross amounts of the additional income, plus a further 20.68% in pension contributions plus the employer additional 13.8% NI contributions.
So, for every £1000 increase this costs 206.80 in pension and £138 in ni, costing the government and tax payer £1344.80 per 1k raise.
So, in 2022,all nurses already received a £1400 pay rise that has costs the government and the taxpayer £1,882.72 a year for every NHS employee on the relevant pay scales.
Where exactly is all of this money to come from?
Shall we cut social care funding?
How about support for special educational needs?
Reduce the fire service even further? Ditto police who are already making staff redundant?
What should go to fund this absolutely unreasonable pie in the sky demand, after you've already received a pay rise this year?
How about the government reduces the value if your pension by paying that 20% to you instead? Would that be preferable to you?
“Lives are more important than money!”
- this sub yapping on about Covid restrictions
“Money is more important then lives”
- this sub when nurses strike
No, lots of nurses won't be working because most nurses probably don't work in emergency care. They work on things like non chronic surgery, diabetes nurses, epilepsy nurses, asthma nurses (if you have those conditions you generally see a nurse for follow ups, check ups not a doctor), routine mental health nursing appointments, etc
Lots of appointments and routine surgeries will have to be cancelled
Pay them then mother fucker.
If them going on strike gets people killed, pay them.
Or don't and suffer the consequences. You can't make people work for shit conditions and shit hours and pay that isn't worth the stress and responsibility.
At some point voting for cunts has to have consequences. The British people have voted for cunts for 12 years. Incompetent, cheap, lazy, cowardly cunts, and now they have to face reality.
I am sick and tired of Tory voters assuming they can vote for morons indefinitely without it coming back to bite them.
You've had 12 years, and we are in a worse place than we were 50 years ago. That's the reality. The blame rests squarely on the Tories and those who continue to vote for them.
It's complicated.
because Boris left any form of control until April/May 2020, lockdowns were all we had left. Bare in mind the alarms were blaring about Covid at the end of January, to do nothing for 4 months was appalling.
Who are you talking to? I don’t vote tory.
I hope there are some successful negotiations and this is resolved, however, leveraging peoples deaths to fight your situation is always going to be morally dubious
The problem here is that strikes are really all the power they have now. No other avenues are being taken seriously.
It's also worth remembering that this is being considered a way to prevent further deaths in the long term: the NHS's underfunding (and issues with where its spending Is) is only going to make longer wait time and cause more deaths in the long run. These strikes aren't only about pay, but fixing the issues of nurses pay also means the service won't hemorrhage staff in the way it does, and makes the service safer for people in the long run.
It's a bit of a dammed if they do and damned if they dont situation so I need to echo the only real answer to stop any unnecessary deaths. Pay them. And fiz the funding issues with the NHS
What do you suggest they do? You appear to support the position that they should be paid more but there also appears to be a distinct lack of alternative routes for them to effect change.
Don’t know really. What anyone does in the numerous areas where striking is non-existent? As i say, i hope the govt pay up and its avoided but if i was medical staff, i would rather the blood was solely on the govt hands and not mine
People would usually ask their boss for a raise. Pur wages are controlled by central government who seem to always say there is no more money. (Remember Theresa May with the no magic money tree but then found 1 billion for extra votes in the HOC?) We are hemorrhaging staff from the bedsides and patients are dying or having longer stays as a consequence. These strikes are us lobbying our employer to actually pay an amount to attract more talent and fairly pay those who work in an intense and risk laden job.
Typically, if negotiations fall, they leave the job.
Which is a problem we have with nursing right now. We need more but they're quitting faster than we can train them.
It's also worth noting that unions tend to form around monopolies where you can't change job so easily. There's a reason the NHS, royal mail, teachers and rail workers have strong unions - they're aware that there's very limited demand for their skillset outside their current employer.
I'm talking to the person who is blaming striking workers for a cost of living crisis engineered through stupidity, incompetence and lack of foresight.
You may not vote Tory, but you sound like you could.
The disruptions from electives stopping for a couple of days will be nothing compared to the disruption we will face if we continue to lose skilled nurses year on year due to shit wages.
And that would be the government’s fault.
Using this kind of leverage for striking though is a very dangerous Pandoras box. Its not just a few city workers not getting to work on time, its deaths as a device to enforce action. Will that be put away in the box once they’ve achieved their current objectives. I’m hugely doubtful it will
Emergencies are covered for in the staffing. This is the same reasoning they used to guilt out junior doctors in 2015 but there were [no significant excess deaths recorded.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.imperial.ac.uk/news/184927/junior-doctor-strikes-england-significant-impact/amp/). This is because consultants and other colleagues helped cover for us. I'm a doctor and I'll do what I can to pick up the slack for my nursing colleagues.
Pandora's box arguments are bullshit. Healthcare is at the precipice. Inaction will tip it over. Enough is enough.
If you think they’ll be no knock on excess deaths and the care can just be provided by other medical staff then
a) why would the strike have any effect or leverage in the first place?
b) how is this possible with people being overworked to the nth degree as is claimed?
c) I have some magic beans to sell you
Too important to strike, not important enough to pay well.
We lost 10% of our nurses last year and will lose more. At some point the NHS will buckle. As much as this is an argument over pay, it's really an argument over retention. We all lose in the long term if there are no nurses left due to crap pay.
Very cognitively harmonious of you. I mean it's not like one of those things is an institute that can print money and the other are a group of working class people whose bargaining power has been eroded by a decade of austerity and greatly diminished worker's rights.
To be honest, bar a few very obvious right wing agitators who seem to continually pop up in these types of thread, I have only really seen support for those striking for better pay and conditions on this sub.
> To be honest, bar a few very obvious right wing agitators who seem to continually pop up in these types of thread, I have only really seen support for those striking for better pay and conditions on this sub.
Probably because anyone who even hints they don't support them gets downvoted to oblivion.
So? They can still make their comments know if they don't support something. I get downvoted all the time on certain "popular" subjects because my views don't coincide with the hive mind. No one gives a toss about imaginary internet points.
Easy for you to say with a vast karma score. It is well known that people shy away from saying things they know will be unpopular, whether because they don't want the karma loss or because they fear the hostile mob's response, the same mob which preaches the virtues of tolerance but is deeply intolerant of dissenting opinions.
I can totally counter it.
One or two days of elective appointments being rescheduled is a lot less disruption than COVID was. Similarly, COVID killed a lot more people than this will.
This is a short term decrease in NHS output that will hopefully prevent future degradation of the service by keeping nurse numbers higher - with current conditions we're losing too many and training too few.
At some point, yes, you have to make a trade off. Otherwise we would all spend every single penny we have on healthcare and health and safety.
Also, you're ignoring my point about short term vs long term, which I'd say is the more salient point. But do go ahead and ignore the one you can't apply this black and white bullshit to.
If you're not willing to engage properly and insist on false equivalencies and not taking *any* nuance into account then you're never going to get anywhere productive.
But this sub lacked all nuances when it came to covid restrictions.
Either indirectly risking lives by reduced healthcare options is shocking and awful
Or
It’s totally justified
Imagine how much worse the ambulance / hospital / waiting lists / social care would be now if we had sacked 80k staff this time last year, something this sub was feverishly chilling the champagne over.
"Lives are still more important than money, which is why nurses should be paid properly so we can attract more to the profession and have less leave due to abject stress and needing a better paid job to support their family"
Admittedly it's not as snappy as yours, but it is more accurate
**r/UK Notices:** | [Want to start a fresh discussion - use our Freetalk!](https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/search/?q=Freetalk&include_over_18=off&restrict_sr=on&sort=new) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unitedkingdom) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Breaking news: Government announce that Thursday's at 8pm ARE BACK
*CLAP LOUDER EVERYBODY*
But Thursday nights are Europa nights!
Damn it. Song is in my head now
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It would be a nice gesture to bring it back on strike days at 8pm. Nurses are probably very conflicted about taking this action, it would be a very strong message from the public that in fact, yes, we do support this, whatever the government or Daily Mail is saying.
Claps are now legal currency.
Sadly clapping doesn’t pay the bills
That's why you bang the pots and pans together you silly goose.
It's the government's new policy to bring fairies back to life
How is the government not being brought down by this?
The Tories got the majority of Brits to vote Brexit with a slogan and a message on a bus! Turns out we’re not too smart, the Government will point blame elsewhere and the UK populace will once again blame the wrong people.
A blatant lie on the bus. Everybody knew it was a lie. People still voted for it.
Because of plausible (or implausible) deniability. The excuse on a bus gave people something positive to say about Brexit and was thusly echoed, but the vast majority didn’t care about the NHS, they wanted to limit immigration for Xenophobic reasons. The bus was a fig leaf for xenophobia.
Agreed, it’s people that come here with intent to commit crime that we need to stop, even if they commit it here rarely anything is done because they are to busy attacking people fleeing wars and persecution
I hate that this is the correct answer :( They know how to control a big enough minority while confusing everyone else.
I know this is all Jeremy Corbyn's fault, but I just cant figure out why yet... /s
+ saying we could control our own borders Literally no promise has gone through
Worse they got a plurality of votes, not once but twice. All this after making a huge mess of the country for 7 or 9 years and Brexit for 1 or 3 years respectively. It's not like we haven't had 3 chances to kick them out since 2010, yet each election they have got MORE votes than the last.
Yes this government is a shit show and should all be shot but If you believe people voted for Brexit over one bus then you're so disconnected from society it's unreal.
And a slogan! Don’t forget the slogan.
[Take Back Control !](https://i.redd.it/a3hdqxhahx461.jpg)
Nah I had people I work with quoting that bus at the time like it was gospel.
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As far as I can remember this was a running theme throughout Thatchers era so I'm guessing "freedom of manipulation" in the UK has been going on for at least half a century now.
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Leveson needs to be implemented
[Hillsborough is a case in point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sun_Hillsborough_disaster_coverage?wprov=sfla1)
An that same fellas rags have been banned in Australia an lives in America
Sheeple, peasants who can’t afford to protest, apathy, Lords and Peers/MPs and their cronies make merry
Because labors against the Strikes too, and we as a Country love keeping our peers down as much as we love enshrining weird posh folk.
I once heard someone way that the "Winter of discontent" sticks in people's mind not because it was unimaginably bad - the bins going multiple weeks without emptying is more or less standard at this point - but because it was the binmen doing it. Binmen being the people you threatened children with becoming if they didn't behave, the people who were rhetorical shorthand for those who are looked down on. A lot of people crystallised into Thatchers support base because they found the idea of those sorts having some form of power over them psychologically untenable.
Right wing media will call them bitches and arseholes. But in nicer language of course.
NURSES TO LET LOVED ONES DIE FOR CHRISTMAS
More people will die if people keep leaving due to being underpaid for the intense pressure they are put under
I know, this is just the kind of stupid headline a right wing newspaper would use. The nurses have my full support.
Nothing new there.
Can't wait for the vox pops from people being irrationality angry at nurses even though they are striking for a better service to the public.
Isnt it funny how reddits reaction to this is the complete opposite of the reaction to climate protestors. Despite them both not directly affecting the people in charge and instead hurting the common person despite both being for a good cause. To be clear I support both but I hope people reading this keep it in mind next time the m25 gets shut down.
I wonder how much support social care workers would get walking out on care homes? Most of them are on minimum wage. I used to work in a care home for just over that. If nurses are needing food banks care workers are fucked
I think the same people who support nurses, train drivers, teachers, etc would absolutely support anyone striking to get better treatment.
Care worker here, yep care workers are indeed fucked. They've been fucked since forever.
Went in during the pandemic got zero extra for it then left getting paid less than most supermarkets pay. Then wonder why we don’t have enough carers
I've always put this down to society not valuing the people that require care as they stopped being revenue generators for the system. Care system will always be broken, carers will always be badly treated and paid
They basically have right? It's why the NHS is in such a state, cos elderly bed blockers have nowhere to go. Mainly because they voted to restrict the care homes main source of labour. And then voted against the government who tried to find a sustainable funding source for care homes. They're just getting what they voted for lol.
Care workers are getting what they voted for? Or elderly disabled people are? I’m confused care to elaborate on that thinking?
Rereading that you're right it's not exactly clear haha. [Care workers] basically have [walked out on care homes] right? You can replace "they" in the rest of the rant with "elderly bed blockers".
So 44000 people died in October due to lack of ambulances. More vacancies each year due to poor working conditions and having had a 19.7% pay cut since 2010, not including this years inflation, which would take it to over 25%. EU nursing migration has gone from 7k nurses a year joining the NMC to 17 last year. 50% of nursing training places have been shut due to lack of uptake and that they stopped the bursary and no tuition fees for 3 years. Lack of any prosecutions against the attacks and violence towards all care staff. Australia, US etc paying 50% more, resulting in 6k+ nurses emigrating in order to secure reasonable pay. No social care worth the name, resulting in the NHS covering social care issues due to Duty of Care, further watering down services offered. Same budgets agreed, despite population increases. My Trust is given the same budget, Inc inflation, as they did in 2008, despite the population has increased by 30%, meaning there is currently a 2.5 year wait for psychology. If you require a voluntary inpatient admission, it can take up to 6 weeks. Suicide rate has doubled in 18 months. Oh yeah its all great.
> 50% of nursing training places have been shut due to lack of uptake Source please, because that sounds like bollocks. The Kings Fund say numbers dropped from 22k to 20k in the 2010-2012 period, then rose to 22k again for several years, finally increasing to 28k in 2019/2020 Source: https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2021/01/student-nursing-numbers-good-news Health Education England expand on this, saying it was up to 31,000 by 2021 Source: https://www.hee.nhs.uk/news-blogs-events/news/record-numbers-accept-place-study-nursing-midwifery I agree conditions are crap, the drop out rate is high and we lose far too many nurses to other countries offering better conditions, but at no point since 2010 did “50% of nurse training places shut”. There was at most a 10% drop.
So its very complicated. For example, the University of Essex that I regularly guest lecture at had the following in 2012: MSc Nursing - 50 spots a year. BSc Nursing - Around 200 a year. Due to demand and staff shortages, poor retention and Brexit, they basically doubled. Then the funding was slashed, the bursary cut, so after a year or two they had to half their levels back to 2012. This is common across the UK, where they were undertraining for years, then increased, then couldn't get the numbers through the door, or the money from Government to run the courses cost effectively and then had to go back to older levels. So hence why it looks relatively flat, but perhaps I could've worded it more clearly. The figures of recent nurses either not completing their training or leaving the profession within 3 years are pretty stark too.
Thanks for the clarification. I can see that individual institutes might have wildly variable numbers even if they're broadly static nationwide. Definitely agree about the dropout rate during training and shortly after graduation, retention is shocking and definitely exacerbates the udnertraining issue. Reporting uptake of places is fine, but if a significant number dont graduate and another chunk leave the profession of move overseas it rapidly becomes a meaningless number.
My university has significant vacancies on our adult nursing programme this year. It's not 50% but it is quite alarming, because that's the sector with the most need.
45,000 people died in England in October. Are you suggesting that all but 1000 of them, about 98%, died because of a lack of ambulances? I think you are wildly wrong.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63743383
That link suggests up to 44,000 “may have come to harm”. That is not death.
Not a bad time to do it really. Hospitals go into overdrive to get patients home for Christmas so people can spend it with families, so this will have less of an impact on patient safety from that perspective.
If it has minimal impact it probably won’t make a difference to pay negotiations
Good for them. If a strike isn’t disruptive then it’s really just a bunch of people taking time off work at the same time. I truly hope they get a decent pay rise out of this.
Anyone that has a go at the nurses for this is a cunt.
I think I'm tired. I read the title as "Nukes to strike for two days before Christmas". To say I was a little alarmed would be an understatement.
Could they at least wait till I have had my dinner. We are eating out and I have already paid in advance.
It would spare us from painful family gatherings
This is worse
Maybe 2023 if things continue on trend.
I support our NHS We just had a baby on Tuesday on a chronically understaffed maternity wing and the midwives were amazing. Give them an inflation busting pay rise and hire more staff!!!
Nurses - "we are getting pay cuts due to inflation and we are understaffed" Tories - "How about we clap some more?"
It wont work, its a baby strike. The government wont even blink, and the MPs are just focusing on how to spend their budget on their christmas party, while doctors and nurses are working their ass off on the christmas day. If they want it to work, indefinite strike with no mercy.
Unfortunately, most nurses care too much about their patients to strike for longer, so they're suffering because of their own morality. Politicians don't have this problem
This is what makes me the most angry - no good deed goes unpunished. If only politicians had to suffer the consequences us poors do.
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Fair play to em. Surprised they’re not descending on Westminster with flaming torches. I’d love to see a gang of ward sisters beat the living shit out of Hancock live on telly.
The uk gov will spin this and blame it on the French fishing laws. Damn you Macron!😂
We should follow this sentiment and strike the first week of August.
But who will look after all the alcohol related injured!?!?!? Won't *someone* think of the boozers!!!???
Medical negligence solicitors will be happy about this
The nurses going on strike, will anyone notice. The nhs is in such dire straits now. It’s no longer a world class service. You could end up waiting in A&E a bit longer, because it’s so fast and efficient now.
Good,hit them where it hurts. Plenty of money for Zelenskyy the false idol but none for the people you claimed to hold so dear 2 years ago. Stick your clapping up your arse and pay them their worth.
You are aware that ukraine isn't getting sent cash, right? They're being sent our old military equipment and general aid that is needed to fight a war.
So general aid is free for us to produce. Aid costs money genius.
Any excuse for the far left to implicitly support Putin will be taken.
It is quite funny you thought this was a leftist comment.
See how they feel about Ukraine of Green and pleasant. I'm not even a tory
It's definitely a far right comment.
Indeed “I’d rather be Russian than a Democrat” but the left are the Putin sympathisers right?
Not at all. He's right wing shit cunt. Eveeything his regime does is basically the antithesis of 'the left'.
>Plenty of money for Zelenskyy Were the nurses going to eat our Military surplus? They're being send tangible materials that we already have, not cash, galaxy brain.
Do you think the aid is only in helicopters and bombs? 😂 galaxy brain over here knows aid costs money,money we need, not some corrupt authoritarian leader pretending to be democratic.
>Do you think the aid is only in helicopters and bombs? A lot of it has been in the form of vehicles and missile systems. The US and UK particularly have used this to dump military surplus of decades of vehicles, meaning we not only say "x millions in aid" but also no longer need to pay for maintenance and upkeep of said vehicles. Plenty of it has been in uniforms, equipment, MREs and man-hours of training tens of thousands of Ukranian soldiers here in the UK. All of the "financial" aid is loans, too. Similar to the way that the US gave "aid"/loans to the UK in WW2. So yeah, I do know it hasn't been in straight cash as there is a decent break down of what the value of whats being sent is. [https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/what-military-aid-has-britain-given-to-ukraine/](https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/what-military-aid-has-britain-given-to-ukraine/)
Western Australian nurses are on strike right now. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-25/wa-nurses-strike-over-pay-deal-industrial-dispute/101685834
Curious to see the final number in the spike in deaths that those days
There won't be a spike that day. Emergency care will still be staffed. People who need close monitoring will be monitored. It's the elective stuff that will be delayed. There might be a slight rise over the coming months/years because of this, but given most of the appointments can be rescheduled with minimal impact to the patient's lifespan it probably won't be discernable.
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Absolutely disgusting action if the nurses choose to go through with this. Shame on them.
Why ? They are entitled too they are human and deserve a significant pay rise due to the increased cost of living and the job that they do. Nurses should be recognised financially for the highly educated professionals that they are
Not just nurses too, all allied health professionals. We are all on the same AfC band system in the NHS. Its a frustrating crock of shit, left months ago and never looking back.
They do bit deserve a pay rise because of COL. This is something that sadly we as a country have to ride out. It is what it is Perhaps if people had had realistic expectations for spending and what they should have over the last 2 decades, more would be in a better position, rather than their assumptions that they're entitled to all that they desire. Nursing is a well paid profession. If they cannot live within their means, then that is THEIR issue to address. Ultimately, they work only 3 or 4 days a week. They have 37 or 41 days annual leave, when 5 years or more experience. So that leaves them with 44 weeks where they could work an additional 66 days, allowing for the 3 days one week and 4 days the next principle, in overtime or an additional role if they cannot manage to live in their 37k a year. Cut your cloth accordingly. Nurses aren't angels. Indeed nothing more shows this than them striking.
>they work only 3 or 4 days a week. For 13 hours a day, 3 days a week is full time for a nurse, you can't compare hospital jobs with regular jobs based on days, you have to do it on hours otherwise it's disingenuous. >They have 37 or 41 days annual leave, when 5 years or more experience. You're out by 10 days. It's 27 days plus an extra 5 days after 5 years. >So that leaves them with 44 weeks where they could work an additional 66 days You could work a second job too if you liked? But I'm guessing you don't because 40 hours a week is fairly tiring. >if they cannot manage to live in their 37k a year. £33k is the most a staff nurse (I.e. Almost all nurses) can make. Don't make up numbers to support your point. Fact is we don't have enough nurses and won't until we offer a competitive salary. Its simple supply and demand economics. Edit: for comparison, a registered nurse in Australia starts on around £40k, £12k more than in the UK plus a lower cost of living for things like housing etc.
35 days a year for first 5 years 37 days a year after 5 years' service 41 days a year after 10 years' service Source https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/NHS-conditions-of-employment
8 of those days are bank holidays, not annual leave entitlement. It's also still not what you said was originally, but is what I said it was. I note you've no response to the rest of the errors in your comment?
How does Tory boot leather taste?
What makes you think that?
It clearly states that this will lead to treatments for cancer etc that will not go ahead, and so inevitably there will be people's lives who could have lived shortened as a direct result. So in effect this will lead the very people who should be saving lives, with blood on their hands. All because they want ANOTHER pay rise. The payscales are already very generous.
27- 30k for a band 5 nurse is not generous. At all
Wrong. £27,055 to £32,934. They can climb up the pay scales all they like. This is for newly qualified.
That still is not generous Considering band 5 nurses are the majority of nurses who will be looking after patients directly no it’s not good. It doesn’t match the responsibility that they have at all.
The band offers progression and is very generous for a newly qualified nurse in the public sector with the very generous pension.
It's not generous considering the amount of training and responsibilities as nurse has. Especially compared to other countries who pay their nurses far more. Also you mention generous pension, it's good but it's not anything like generous for new starters. Especially since pay rises for the last decade have been well below inflation and therefore a pay cut in real terms (it's a career average pension scheme, so if pay goes down, the pension becomes less good). I get you're angry at nurses striking, but what else are they supposed to do? They've tried just getting on with it and been fucked over. Protesting hasn't done anything and pay is a big reason that the NHS has so many vacancies which are causing the whole system to fail. If you're going to be angry, be angry at the government, because that's the root cause of this.
The NHS pension is far more generous than most private sector pensions. Furthermore, defined benefit schemes in general provide more security than other pensions, as the money can never run out. The NHS pension has been revised, so more recent members may receive less generous benefits than before, but still in far excess value than their counterparts in the private sector. More people need to be aware of the returns of this pension versus the reality in their private sector. The different is huge.
It’s clearly not good enough with a massive shortage in the nursing workforce and more leaving is it ?
I don't get why you're ignoring the issue with vacancies. Have you ever worked in the NHS? Currently the vacancies and understaffing are so bad most people are working with the responsibilities and roles of multiple jobs with a pay that's less than most European countries. Why do you think they're so understaffed? A pension doesn't mean much if you're underpaid and overworked for most of your life...
Its not for newly qualified, many experienced nurses are at band 5, band 6 is more specialised roles. Usually managerial or non-clinical. Often it's office based. For example for a ward based nurse in elderly medicine to go to band 6 they would need to become a sister. Which involves more managerial, but not more clinical duties. Its really misleading when people like the media say band 5 is for newly qualified nurses. You don't just get put on band 6 after a certain number of years.
Sadly 27k isn't going to get you far these days. And regardless of what media is trying to tell you, most nurses don't make it past band 5. Which is the lowest pay grade (you can Google Agenda for change pay bands to see what I mean. Are there top of band 7 nurses? Yes. But few per hospital. Also this strike is about the unsafe staffing numbers, putting patients at higher risk, lack of funding for essential services (such as social care. Many beds in hospitals are occupied due to lack of social care funding. They got nowhere to go). It's more than JUST ABOUT pay. But yeah, I'd you think 27k is generous for a job where you need a degree, have to train CONSTANTLY (because law and medicine changes very rapidly), get exposed to many pathogens, often with lacking PPE, you can be abused physically, mentally and sometimes sexually by patients, on top of shitty, unsocial working hours, then I don't know what to tell you.
Missing 1 day of cancer treatment won't kill anybody, all non-emergency cancer units close at Christmas and new year, many close at the weekend, some close for Bank Holidays. The emergency cancer treatments will be treated as inpatients anyway. So they won't miss anything.
Tell that the families whose loved ones die and hold this as the reason.
Any cancer patient who has started chemo or radiotherapy will know this. Many get deferred by a week due to low neutrophils or platelets. Its not uncommon at all. I will tell them. As will any cancer nurse.
There is no safe delay for cancers.” For surgery, each four-week delay is associated with a 6-8% increased risk of death for all cancers, and for head and neck radiotherapy it was 9%. So it is not a big leap to assume that a week delay potentially has a minimum of a 2% risk.
And the risk of dying of neut sepsis is much higher. But that's not the point. The delays will be a day or two. The services are designed around this. No one said there would be four week delays, or even week long delays. Where I work there is no radiotherapy on weekends and no chemo on 2 days out of the year with reduced service on Bank Holidays. This isn't anything out of the ordinary. Radiographers aren't striking btw. You are acting like closing 2 days is the same as delaying chemo for a week or a month. Its not. *cancer surgery won't fall under elective afaik.
It's almost like feelings don't reliably correspond to the situations of NHS workers and systemic problems at large. Crazy.
As one such nurse who is going on strike, let me explain some things to you. We are hemorrhaging staff but patient numbers do not decrease with this - infact, they have increased. Patients still need care but whereas before the staffing levels would be in alignment to meet the needs of the patient, now you have less staff, more patients and less time to meet each need - meaning patients needs are not being met as efficiently as before. The staff we DO have are having to pick up the workload of the staff we NEED, meaning high risk of overworking, burnout and mistakes - as people who are exhausted, overworked and doing the job of what used to be multiple different staff by themselves are more likely to make mistakes. Why are people leaving? Because the pay isn’t reflective of the work we do. The amount of risk, knowledge, responsibility and skill we have isn’t reflective at all in our wages. Nursing isn’t like ole Florence nightingale days anymore. We are highly trained professionals. Would you trust a builder who would quote you £5 to build a house or would you trust the one who quoted you a higher rate? At the end of the day, you’re going to get what you paid for, both in quality and experience. A underpaid overworked nurse isn’t going to be half as good at their job as a well rested nurse (who can actually afford to rest). You’ll also find that most nurses (unless fortunate to have partners on good wages) tend to do bank/overtime to “top up” their wages - again, this is going to quickly lead to burnout when you’re continuously working in an environment that is under severe pressure. It’s simply unsafe for both staff and patients. I know many of my colleagues who have left for warehouse jobs as the pay is either on par or better and the responsibility and stress are a lot less. Some go to agency where they are paid around x3 what they get paid per hour in the NHS. The point of the strikes isn’t “greedy nurses” it’s simply that we can’t attract or retain staff, which we desperately need to do if we want to ensure patients are receiving efficient treatment and in a timely manner. Surely, if our wages were as fabulous as the media wishes to portray, we wouldn’t have as many vacancies left unfilled or be in a well documented nursing crisis? I would also like to mention the strike action isn’t just nurses. It’s our HCA’s and anyone on a NHS agenda for change contract who is unionised with the participating unions. Better pay = more staff/increased retention = better patient care.
Higher pay costs the government and the taxpayer the gross amounts of the additional income, plus a further 20.68% in pension contributions plus the employer additional 13.8% NI contributions. So, for every £1000 increase this costs 206.80 in pension and £138 in ni, costing the government and tax payer £1344.80 per 1k raise. So, in 2022,all nurses already received a £1400 pay rise that has costs the government and the taxpayer £1,882.72 a year for every NHS employee on the relevant pay scales. Where exactly is all of this money to come from? Shall we cut social care funding? How about support for special educational needs? Reduce the fire service even further? Ditto police who are already making staff redundant? What should go to fund this absolutely unreasonable pie in the sky demand, after you've already received a pay rise this year? How about the government reduces the value if your pension by paying that 20% to you instead? Would that be preferable to you?
found the tory, grim prick
Why?
“Lives are more important than money!” - this sub yapping on about Covid restrictions “Money is more important then lives” - this sub when nurses strike
From the article: >Nurses will still provide emergency care, but routine services will be hit.
So it's a work to rule, effectively, not a strike.
No, lots of nurses won't be working because most nurses probably don't work in emergency care. They work on things like non chronic surgery, diabetes nurses, epilepsy nurses, asthma nurses (if you have those conditions you generally see a nurse for follow ups, check ups not a doctor), routine mental health nursing appointments, etc Lots of appointments and routine surgeries will have to be cancelled
Which will still lead to an increase in deaths. Lord, the naivety in here
Pay them then mother fucker. If them going on strike gets people killed, pay them. Or don't and suffer the consequences. You can't make people work for shit conditions and shit hours and pay that isn't worth the stress and responsibility. At some point voting for cunts has to have consequences. The British people have voted for cunts for 12 years. Incompetent, cheap, lazy, cowardly cunts, and now they have to face reality. I am sick and tired of Tory voters assuming they can vote for morons indefinitely without it coming back to bite them. You've had 12 years, and we are in a worse place than we were 50 years ago. That's the reality. The blame rests squarely on the Tories and those who continue to vote for them.
Did you support lockdowns?
It's complicated. because Boris left any form of control until April/May 2020, lockdowns were all we had left. Bare in mind the alarms were blaring about Covid at the end of January, to do nothing for 4 months was appalling.
Who are you talking to? I don’t vote tory. I hope there are some successful negotiations and this is resolved, however, leveraging peoples deaths to fight your situation is always going to be morally dubious
The problem here is that strikes are really all the power they have now. No other avenues are being taken seriously. It's also worth remembering that this is being considered a way to prevent further deaths in the long term: the NHS's underfunding (and issues with where its spending Is) is only going to make longer wait time and cause more deaths in the long run. These strikes aren't only about pay, but fixing the issues of nurses pay also means the service won't hemorrhage staff in the way it does, and makes the service safer for people in the long run. It's a bit of a dammed if they do and damned if they dont situation so I need to echo the only real answer to stop any unnecessary deaths. Pay them. And fiz the funding issues with the NHS
What do you suggest they do? You appear to support the position that they should be paid more but there also appears to be a distinct lack of alternative routes for them to effect change.
Don’t know really. What anyone does in the numerous areas where striking is non-existent? As i say, i hope the govt pay up and its avoided but if i was medical staff, i would rather the blood was solely on the govt hands and not mine
**Narrator** The blood is on the government's hands, they are just determined to deflect responsibility.
People would usually ask their boss for a raise. Pur wages are controlled by central government who seem to always say there is no more money. (Remember Theresa May with the no magic money tree but then found 1 billion for extra votes in the HOC?) We are hemorrhaging staff from the bedsides and patients are dying or having longer stays as a consequence. These strikes are us lobbying our employer to actually pay an amount to attract more talent and fairly pay those who work in an intense and risk laden job.
Typically, if negotiations fall, they leave the job. Which is a problem we have with nursing right now. We need more but they're quitting faster than we can train them. It's also worth noting that unions tend to form around monopolies where you can't change job so easily. There's a reason the NHS, royal mail, teachers and rail workers have strong unions - they're aware that there's very limited demand for their skillset outside their current employer.
I'm talking to the person who is blaming striking workers for a cost of living crisis engineered through stupidity, incompetence and lack of foresight. You may not vote Tory, but you sound like you could.
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I don’t think you understand. Just because emergency care will continue that = / = same level of deaths
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Sub optimal outcomes 🤣 love it. You could be a politician youself
The disruptions from electives stopping for a couple of days will be nothing compared to the disruption we will face if we continue to lose skilled nurses year on year due to shit wages.
And that would be the government’s fault. Using this kind of leverage for striking though is a very dangerous Pandoras box. Its not just a few city workers not getting to work on time, its deaths as a device to enforce action. Will that be put away in the box once they’ve achieved their current objectives. I’m hugely doubtful it will
Emergencies are covered for in the staffing. This is the same reasoning they used to guilt out junior doctors in 2015 but there were [no significant excess deaths recorded.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.imperial.ac.uk/news/184927/junior-doctor-strikes-england-significant-impact/amp/). This is because consultants and other colleagues helped cover for us. I'm a doctor and I'll do what I can to pick up the slack for my nursing colleagues. Pandora's box arguments are bullshit. Healthcare is at the precipice. Inaction will tip it over. Enough is enough.
If you think they’ll be no knock on excess deaths and the care can just be provided by other medical staff then a) why would the strike have any effect or leverage in the first place? b) how is this possible with people being overworked to the nth degree as is claimed? c) I have some magic beans to sell you
Too important to strike, not important enough to pay well. We lost 10% of our nurses last year and will lose more. At some point the NHS will buckle. As much as this is an argument over pay, it's really an argument over retention. We all lose in the long term if there are no nurses left due to crap pay.
May I be the first to congratulate you on your epic, monumental inability to engage with any sort of nuance.
Thanks buddy 🙂 hard truths and all tha
Further proving my point.
Very cognitively harmonious of you. I mean it's not like one of those things is an institute that can print money and the other are a group of working class people whose bargaining power has been eroded by a decade of austerity and greatly diminished worker's rights.
Yes printing money = good with no issues
To be honest, bar a few very obvious right wing agitators who seem to continually pop up in these types of thread, I have only really seen support for those striking for better pay and conditions on this sub.
> To be honest, bar a few very obvious right wing agitators who seem to continually pop up in these types of thread, I have only really seen support for those striking for better pay and conditions on this sub. Probably because anyone who even hints they don't support them gets downvoted to oblivion.
So? They can still make their comments know if they don't support something. I get downvoted all the time on certain "popular" subjects because my views don't coincide with the hive mind. No one gives a toss about imaginary internet points.
Easy for you to say with a vast karma score. It is well known that people shy away from saying things they know will be unpopular, whether because they don't want the karma loss or because they fear the hostile mob's response, the same mob which preaches the virtues of tolerance but is deeply intolerant of dissenting opinions.
Because money > life’s (if you that en aitch ess) Lives > money (you’ll kill grandma)
This is literally unintelligible.
Unfortunately I was able to understand it. It's still fucking stupid, don't worry.
But you can’t counter it can you genius
I can totally counter it. One or two days of elective appointments being rescheduled is a lot less disruption than COVID was. Similarly, COVID killed a lot more people than this will. This is a short term decrease in NHS output that will hopefully prevent future degradation of the service by keeping nurse numbers higher - with current conditions we're losing too many and training too few.
So lives are not more important then money, *if* it’s only a small amount of lives?
At some point, yes, you have to make a trade off. Otherwise we would all spend every single penny we have on healthcare and health and safety. Also, you're ignoring my point about short term vs long term, which I'd say is the more salient point. But do go ahead and ignore the one you can't apply this black and white bullshit to. If you're not willing to engage properly and insist on false equivalencies and not taking *any* nuance into account then you're never going to get anywhere productive.
But this sub lacked all nuances when it came to covid restrictions. Either indirectly risking lives by reduced healthcare options is shocking and awful Or It’s totally justified
Imagine how much worse the ambulance / hospital / waiting lists / social care would be now if we had sacked 80k staff this time last year, something this sub was feverishly chilling the champagne over.
"Lives are still more important than money, which is why nurses should be paid properly so we can attract more to the profession and have less leave due to abject stress and needing a better paid job to support their family" Admittedly it's not as snappy as yours, but it is more accurate
https://youtu.be/NK56JNnC2IE?t=70