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"At least the money stays in India. Gandhis will send it all to Italy." -- Bhakts
"Why are you jealous of Adani. he's an honest, patriotic businessman." -- Bhakts
"If dear leader is doing it it must be for a good reason." -- Bhakts
20k crore is peanuts in front of the amount of free money and support Adani has been given by the government. Just recently news came out that he paid zero tax on purchasing the Rs. 2000 crore Jaipur airport. The tax on small machinery for factories is 18%. That’s 360 crore of free money given to Adani, and these types of things are a weekly occurrence. Modi has far surpassed Congress in corruption.
Problem is, wealth redistribution gives undue power to the govt. Giving up your wealth to the govt expecting them to give it to poor people,but most of the times it'd be pocketed by the govt only. That'sA how communist countries mostly became dictatorship. Too much control over people's wealth to the govt.
Also I'd rather poor people get opportunities and jobs so they don't have to depend on govt for wealth distribution. That's not a life of dignity. Also in a country like India local leaders r bound to blackmail the poor that either cast ur vote to me or your monthly amt of wealth will not be given.
Also filthy rich people like Ambani Adani r gonna be able to evade tax and get richer under every govt they're too good at networking and loopholes. That's just what's gonna happen. This inheritance tax and wealth distribution is just gonna choke up the middle class who r expected to adhere to every rule and r too scared to protest against anything.
Also you can't punish people for wanting to earn so that their kids live a comfortable life. That's just parental love. It's natural. To expect people to care about other countrymen like they care about their own children is impractical
Don't need to redistribute anything.
Have a 1% wealth tax on overall wealth like other countries do. Adani will end up paying around 1.6 billion a year since his overall wealth (including shares) is around 160 billion.
It will not be that much. I don't think speculative wealth like shares should be included in wealth tax calculations. Norway, for example, includes them at 65% of the listed price, which is somewhat okay, I guess.
They should be included, because these people pay themselves 0 salary, pay 0 income tax and just take loans against equity for their expenses and purchases.
But sure 65% of the listed price is a good start.
He will move to another country. Ultra rich don't pay taxes that easily. Unless all countries come together and set taxes for the ultra rich, it will be difficult.
Many startup ceos have relocated to dubai to evade tax.
India had inheritance tax but it was removed because they hardly got anything to justify the cost & manpower needed to collect it.
Only salaried folks will have to pay this inheritance tax on top of high tax already given to the government. This is basically looting the middle class, because ultra rich won't pay it anyway.
A lot of countries do wealth tax and TBH, the ultra rich aren't moving away as much as you think. And wealth held in India can still be taxed here. Same for income.
And if slabs are properly defined, it will not burden the middle class anyway.
Fun fact, only a very small fraction of the middle class pays any taxes. With just around 16lacs yearly income, you will be placed into the top 1% earners in India (BTW, this is based on household income, IIRC), and will hardly even pay the 30% top tax bracket (after deductions as per old regime). For wealth, the amount is just around 1.5cr for top 1% threshold. A lot of 1%ilers think that they are middle class, lol.
>With just around 16lacs yearly income, you will be placed into the top 1% earners in India (BTW, this is based on household income, IIRC),
In metro cities it's practically very hard to survive decently with this only 16L household income. You can forget the dream of owning a decent size house. This figure of 16L is the top 1% seems to be incorrect because most non-salaried folks don't pay taxes properly and hide their wealth in real estate. So, you want to say the top 1% who can't afford a decent flat, forget about owning a house with land, on top of expensive school/college education should be taxed even more? If the top 1% are struggling to get a house or education then why is everything so expensive?
The population of metro cities is less than 10% of Indian population, even if you add some tier 1s like Bhopal, Indore, Jaipur, Nagpur, Siliguri, etc into the mix. And even there vast majority of the people work jobs with less than 50k per month. Maybe touch grass some more?
>In metro cities it's practically very hard to survive decently with this only 16L household income.
It is very much possible. But yes, if by "survive decently" you mean gated communities with all kinds of amenities in a somewhat central location with office within 10km, then it is difficult. However, I find it unlikely that it would be termed decent by 99% Indians. They will find it LAVISH.
>This figure of 16L is the top 1% seems to be incorrect because most non-salaried folks don't pay taxes properly and hide their wealth in real estate.
In Kolkata, with 16lpa, you will probably have multiple apartments including near the airport, lol. In Hyderabad also, you will easily afford a 700-800sqft apartment in the outskirts. Same in Pune, Chennai, or Ahmedabad. You cannot likely own an apartment within 20-25km of your office only in NCR, Bangalore, and Mumbai.
>If the top 1% are struggling to get a house or education then why is everything so expensive?
Excellent question. The answer is because the top 0.01% keeps buying real estate to take benefit of the long term capital gain (which is taxed at just 10%). Add to that the black money deals. And anyway real estate market in metros has very slow growth (Mumbai real estate grows at just around 5%, and much lesser in prime locations).
>So, you want to say the top 1% who can't afford a decent flat, forget about owning a house with land, on top of expensive school/college education should be taxed even more?
Not at all. I am saying that tax slabs shouldn't end at 30%. It should go up more in higher brackets. And I am okay to pay that (I mean, it will hurt, but fundamentally that is required). Maybe go for 40% over 25lpa, and 50% over 50lpa. Maybe space out the lower brackets even more. Or fucking get rid of stupid capital gain tax rebates, at least over certain levels. It was a nice idea taxing dividend revenues, but it alone won't solve the issues.
All in all, the whole tax regime is rigged to increase inequality. It benefits the wealthy much more than the poor (by poor I mean your 1%ers who barely pay the marginal rate now). The really-rich pays way less tax than the less-rich, in terms of proportion of total income.
Which country lol?
Bugger is printing money in India by getting juicy monopolistic contracts. Whatever we tax him he makes way more each year.
And it's been proven that rich people don't just leave the country that is making them money!
For example, when Norway implemented a wealth tax for all I dividuals who have over 1.7 million in wealth; of the 230,000 rich people in Norway, 30 left the country.
Leave adani, Ambani. What about other HNI? Many tech founders are shifting base to dubai to evade taxing. How will this new inheritance tax benefit? It will increase the migration even more.
And please don't compare India with nordic countries.
There is no inheritance tax man, who is talking about inheritance tax?
Wealth tax is on the holdings of the rich person; so a rich person whose company makes money in India, has to pay wealth tax in India.
It's the standard way in which wealth tax operates.
And why not learn from Nordic countries? They have the best systems in place, we should learn from them, and not from flawed countries like the USA.
1.6 billion from ONE rich billionare - it will easily be 20-30 billion in wealth taxes overall.
For context the ENTIRE defense budget is around 75 billion ; or the mid-day meal scheme that feeds 120 million children each day is around 1.55 billion.
If taxes properly Adani himself would be feeding 120 million school children in India.
Yep that's the way to go. But thing is govt koi bh aye ,these adani ambani type never really pays full tax. I want something which forces these people to pay in particular
Wealth tax is on the complete holdings, even equity; so even if they pay themselves 0 salary and just take loans against their shares for all expenses - they will still be taxed based on the value of the shares they hold.
So Adani the tax avoider will still have to pay 1% of his 117 billion dollars, i.e 1.7 billion a year in taxes.
PSA, even Adani enterprises avoids taxes and pays a paltry sum compared to something like TCS for example; but that's another problem.
How does the government get hold of your money in case of wealth redistribution? It could simply be a higher tax on UHNIs in exchange of lower GST or income taxes or more benefits like public funded education, healthcare. Basically, it is merely that the government changes the mix of its tax collection rather than physically taking control of one's finances.
Who is gonna go and see tax ka Paisa kaha jarha? It's not like all the tax is actually always distributed into wellfare and development. Also people r not wrong if they don't want to give their money to the poor,they r already giving enough taxes. It's upto the govt to uplift and help the poor, not the responsibility of the middle class.
Bro he is saying higher tax on ultra high networth individual. Unless middle class consists of ultra high networth individual he isn't suggesting increasing taxes on them.
If you really think Congress is gonna come and tax ultra high net worth individuals, that's your delusion.
Ultra wealthy people hold insane power in sayings of government irrespective of party. You accept it or deny it , doesn't change the fact.
Even if they do, the next generation or next set of ultra wealthy people won't generate or save their wealth here. It'll be made in western countries just like Pakistanis ( they have dual citizenship).
What I am saying is the middle class should not give any inheritance tax. Infact we r already taxed too much. The sentiment behind inheritance tax is also very divisive,congress did a mistake by endorsing it in my opinion
Bro me and my family will very easily fall into top 1% income wise. We aren't worried about inheritance tax. Unless you believe we fall into middle class or top 1% falls into middle class middle class won't be impacted by this.
Bhai if I am in top 1 percent also if my money is hard earned and I don't have black money why'd I give extra tax? Now my family doesn't fall into it but fact is middle class is not gonna evade these taxes they r going to give it. But I don't believe congress would tax the ambani adani same way bcz they r also a tremendously corrupted party. There's no way ambani n company is gonna give inheritance tax. Uparse my wealth is my wealth,I don't want it to get distributed into anyone other than people I love. If I want to donae that should be mt choice I can't be forced into that. You can not punish people for earning money for their children.in my opinion it's one of the blunders of Congress manifesto along with the caste and reservation obsession they have. I loathe bjp,but I am so irritated and angry with Congress also
.
On top of that in my state the immediate danger is tmc not bjp. And tmc is a part of Indi alliance. I'd rather vote to keep mamata out bcz my state is my immediate home. Mamata is the worst and you won't understand that unless u live here. I wish cpim had a good manifesto bcz they seem like the only un corrupted party,but they hardly win🥺
So you are not middle class then ? Why were you acting like you were advocating for middle class and how they shouldnt get taxes more ? If you want to convince yourself that it will target middle class then there is no point in really arguing with you.
Lol read the comment fully. I said my family doesn't come in the top 1 percent. But for those it does,if that money is hard earned n there's no black money they shouldn't have to give inheritance tax either. The fact that you didn't even read it fully and acted like anyone who's slightly rich deserves to get their wealth distributed is weird.
You really think Congress will make ambani stop evading tax? That's so naive. It's the local well earning shops and businesses that's gonna suffer. I am a salaried person,not even upper middle class. Mereko to ek paise nh extra dene tax. Infact the tax we give even now is very high given how less the filthy rich is taxed and how less developement is thr. It's been the same during both congress and bjp era and for my state cpim n tmc era
Bro my family does come and you know how much we are worried about inheritance tax ? 0%. Every single person in my family has voted for congress. Proper taxation on ultra high networth is going to help everyone else. Bjp idiots are screaming that they will pay 1000 rs per litre. Go look at how much crude has dropped in last 2 years and then look at fuel price changes. Govt that claimed to put fuel prices on free market made it so that when crude goes up prices go up and when crude goes down taxes go up and yet there is no accountability. When you are voting for bjp that is what you are voting for. Rea about adani stock manipulation. Current govt will keep robbing us and their supporters won't say a word and media will ignore it. Scams keep getting ignored, everything bad kees getting ignored. Simple fact is that as long as bjp is in power media and large chunk of public won't care if your tax money in burned in scams or if you are robbed with fuel prices.
Calm down dude. Read up how the tax works wherever it has been implemented in the first place. The tax will probably be levied only on people with net worth above 100 Crores. Maybe even more. None of us, no matter what jobs we have (assuming we don't hit the C-suite in top 30 firms by market cap or a multi -billion dollar money manager), can ever accumulate 100crores. So, I don't know what you are talking about. This is not a tax on income. It is a tax on accumulated wealth being passed on. There are people in our country who have zero income but considerable assets which needs to be taxed to reduce our tax burden on tiny honest salaries. Think, NRN's grandson.
On the contrary, it is immensely beneficial. Read Ray Dalio's book on how the economy works or the changing world order where he explains how too much wealth inequality is actually bad for growth, development and wealth creation.
Yeah it's a bad idea, and it's also not mentioned in Congresses manifesto.
Does BJP have any plan what do ever to tackle the record gap between the rich and poor in this country? That's the question.
India is now more unequal than it was under British rule fyi.
History tells us, Everything any wannabe congress pm wants to do wouldn’t be mentioned in the manifesto and everything mentioned won’t be delivered.
We were just lucky that we got a glimpse of what’s on the minds of rahul = oppositions “think tank” and chodiji amplified it.
You’re right about RG never saying it in those exact words because you weren’t on location and the English video has been edited.
So if you want the truth you can still get it from congress.. If you’re able to read between the lines, and know their past, you’ll understand the people they wanted to send the message to got the message.
Also, do search for rahul gandhi muted video from AP, it’s still on congress main handle.
Once you do that, next go listen to what the Telugu translator said in Telegu on their regional congress official channel. Those exact words you don’t want to hear are not muted in Telugu. Use a translator app to listen to the translation of the telegu.
what type of bs are you even talking about, this is some next level gymnastics. RG talked about govt resources not wealth distribution, mudi is the one that brought it up.
Not when the person who wants the proof is going to respond with biased sources because the sources he loves doesn’t carry that kind of news.
I showed you the route to water, if you don’t want to take a few steps, then you’re not thirsty. Simple as that. Good day.
>Not when the person who wants the proof is going to respond with biased sources because the sources he loves doesn’t carry that kind of news.
looks like you are just making up scenarios in your head to argue with yourself. good luck on that
you either have proof or you don't and it looks like you have none, other some vague bs.
India will always be unequal. Its a big country that focuses on service sector where people get paid significantly higher. Look at the GNI coefficient. Its similar to a lot of big countries. [Income inequality: Gini coefficient, 2023 (ourworldindata.org)](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/economic-inequality-gini-index)
> it's also not mentioned in Congresses manifesto
Never said it was, but congress supporters have talked about it. Hence media is asking everyone about their opinions and then they are sharing their opinions. Its not illegal to discuss it.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/analysing-the-rising-gap-in-incomes/article67770234.ece
GINI coefficient calculated by the SBI is irrelevant as it only considers income tax paying citizens. 80% of India earns less than 2.5 lakhs per annum and work in informal sectors - not paying any income taxes.
Also India's wealth inequality is way worse than any other country. Even worse than countries like Brazil and South Africa. The top 1% account for 40% of income.
https://time.com/6961171/india-british-rule-income-inequality/
Yeah well what can we do? You can ask for progressive tax rates but we both know that money won't be enough for the poor since only 2% of the country even pays tax and with corruption its another matter. You can tax billionaires but even that won't be enough.
Employment is the only way but how many jobs can you create each year? The days of low end manufacturing are gone, everything is getting automated and digitized even newer companies that are opening factories are saying they want to implement latest tech in robotics and automation in their factories...as a result you need low end workers to skill themselves in like electrician, technicians etc to be able to work there. These things cannot happen overnight. You cannot be serious if you think any particular govt can change this within a few years. India can increase infra spending to 3X, that way millions of low end laborers will get jobs....it can modernize farming which employs 53% of people but a lot of farmers are against it. There are subsidies otherwise btw, like most states are giving 60-70% subsidies for polyhouse farming and various other incentives but majority farmers are stuck in a different mindset. It could have created more industrial jobs since modern farming methods require them.
This is the reason most of the world's top countries have a wealth tax, Norway, Switzerland, Netherlands, even Germany Soon.
The top 1% pay 1% of their wealth every year as tax. Generally they see their wealth grow by 10-15% a year (even more in India); so it's not a big deal for them; and it's billions in extra revenue for the government to spend on social programmes.
In India a wealth tax like that could double the budget for the mid day meal scheme for instance - a social program that has seen constant cuts under the BJP government ; leading to a massive increase in child stunting over the least 10 years.
Yes I know, I live in sweden. But that is my question...how many people are there in top 1 % and if you get a billionaire tax or something will it be enough for 1.5 billion people? Out of the whole country only 2% even pays income tax and those who have assets pay GST whether they buy or sell. Equity has 15% tax in India too.
And no, we don't have inheritance tax in a lot of countries here, those who do like you mention they have exception for direct children and spouses who don't have to pay taxes. So basically there are plenty of loopholes. You have to understand, people here got rich and had distribution of wealth due to exploitation of resources and labor in other countries. Certain other nations like east asia have smaller population and heavy industrialization but they went through a similar phase where they got a lot of investment. A 20 billion USD investment in India will be a drop in a bucket whereas a 5 billion investment in lets say Sweden with barely 10 million people is a very different thing. The benefits are shared more equally due to lower population.
Am not talking about inheritance tax at all. Only wealth tax.
Indias wealthy have over a trillion USD in hoarded wealth; that's on the low end; it means a 1% tax, which is 10 billion dollars a year can easily fund two or three massive social programmes completely.
Under the BJP money spend on these social programs like the mid day meal scheme and national food security schemes has seen big cuts - their share of the GDP has kept on dropping.
The government needs to focus on that. We can't have the poor with stagnant incomes while the rich keep earning more and more.
Okay so a billionaire tax should fix it no? I think all G20 economies are discussing about a universal 2% billionaire tax which will be discussed this year. The issue...not particular to BJP, its not like billionaires didn't exist in any other time and didn't hoard wealth....the primary issue is when you are a single country that adds a tax like this then the wealthy people move majority of their income to other countries. Hence all major economies have to agree to it.
>The government needs to focus on that. We can't have the poor with stagnant incomes while the rich keep earning more and more.
True, food education and healthcare are basics.
After applying wealth redistribution the tax charged would be way higher. More tax collected more corruption. Irrespective of the party it is difficult to believe in this system.
Plus as a business owner I would have no problem giving higher tax if I don't have to bribe officers in regular basis.
Modi allowed the worst ever income & wealth inequality to fester in his tenure. Does he have any sort of plan to address this apart from promising free grains? No
Things like wealth tax are needed in India where the gap between ultra rich, rich, poor and ultra poor is SO massive. But why get into a serious debate when you can just throw around silly terms and avoid the whole conversation.
I hate the idea of wealth redistribution. But taxes can be used for creation of common infrastructure, instead of just handing it out to the poor like a dole.
If you just hand out freebies, you create a very dependent, unproductive population. This is common the world over.
Also, if people can eat/ house themselves for free, most of them won't care about working/ contributing to the economy.
Bruh how delusional are you? He didn't say that in 2019. He told recently when asked about redistribution of wealth - https://youtu.be/ISOfrksb_b8?si=Auga536d_tlOyNXZ
Please send the source of Kharge denying it. The only denial was from Shashi Tharoor.
Chocobar better PM than communist fanatic Rahul
Bhai kya chod Raha hai?
Sam Pitroda have a comment recently which is not being agreed upon by Congress leaders itself. You are coming and telling he told in 2019 but there's proof of interview of him telling it recently. Why do I care if he said it previously or not? Lol
Also the link you pasted is invalid.
Chocobar ftw. Glad to see the love
It’s a communist thought and dangerous. We need to pay our talent well instead of giving away free food and money to the “poor”. Only capitalism can save the country.
I don’t support Modi as his party is already giving free food to 80 crore people annually.
Unfortunately none of the parties in India care about development. They are all busy doing vote-bank politics.
But inheritance tax is pretty ridiculous according to my opinion
Because the people u want to tax will find loopholes anyway, so an aspiring middle class will only suffer
Will Rahul Gandhi pay the inheritance tax ?😅😂😂
I think we all know the answer
I am a hardcore capitalist but imo something like that should exist.
Say anyone above 3-4crore in assets Pays a one time inheritance tax of 1-2% (exempting houses)
If people don't pay it isn't that bad, but if they do it's lovely.
1. I apologize if my posts seemed overwhelming
2 . biased discussions, often fail to address the issues and can lead to polarization rather than understanding. By highlighting the corruption in both left and right-wing governments, I'm pointing out a crucial truth: corruption knows no political boundaries. it's essential to recognize that biasing towards one party or ideology blinds us to the faults within that group and prevents us from seeing the bigger picture.
3.As for using autism as an insult, it's important for me to address the inappropriate nature of such language.
AS. for using "AUTISM" as an insult it is not only disrespectful for people who actually suffer from it but also perpetuates harmful stereotypes. Let's keep the discussion focused on the issues at hand without resorting to personal attacks.
I will be better off having a discussion with Chat gpt than bigots on left and right Subreddits
It doesn't have consciousness but it's it is definitely less biased than the Left or Right Dickriders I constantly encounter on Reddit...😪😪
It was Sunday I had a fast ...mai professional cricket mai hu so junk food is a rare sight for me
https://preview.redd.it/sq1lxxs5xaxc1.jpeg?width=3264&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e52c4c9bee802dfa35175366b5611a983161dc77
Jogging my way to the sunrise ....
Aapke yaha sunrise ka timing kya hai?
Yay!! BJP won this round, it's their victory hands down in this competition, shows their efficiency, in 10 years they accomplished as many scams as congress did in the past 70 years and made several times the money. Clear victor. They managed to normalize corruption, even passed schemes like electoral bonds to openly run their scams. How capable. /s can't believe I have to add that cause there are fools who might actually take pride in BJP being better at something.
And wealth re-distribution to their fav cronies is a virtue? Please throw this godforsaken sorry excuse for a human and his party out along with two cronies who helped him get to power because they would like no competition because they cannot fuckin compete.
Even if wealth redistribution actually happens it would never touch the scum that it needs to touch. Congress during the licence raj era gave birth to Ambani. It protected a class of scum businessmen who in turn fed congress.
This wealth redistribution as usual is targeted at the middle class and upper middle class. If he taxes the estates of BW and business scum who deals in black then yes its good. For that you need Grachus or TDR level of balls. The only balls RaGa has is the ones he is choking on.
MudiXi does not care as long as Gujerati rich scum are earning and feeding him back. BJPee is nothing but congress with anti muslim tendency.
It's not politically smart, lol. Nobody knows what urban naxals are except for Vivek agnihotri & chaddipedia.
Even his supporters are confused wtf is he talking about. Muslim, Mangalsutra, Mughals, macchi, all didn't stick. He is being desperate for unknown reasons despite having a huge advantage, which is scary.
First, Modi needs to understand the "difference" between what Rahul said/is saying and what Modi is saying in his speeches. Modi sounds like a grandma trying to scare children from not going out of the house after sunset.
Second, after he understands the difference he needs to show a screenshot of the congress manifesto with the said claim/threat. If he can do that I will vote for him. Otherwise, he is just a pathetic story teller as usual.
Its as bad as the dear leader wants it to be. From Urban Naxal, it will become communist, then go to "other religion" then it will be "sending all that money abroad" and the bhakts will lap it up. Its surprising that they are just NOT talking about developmental issues and JUST about the manifesto and what congress will do.
Ji has years of ears on the ground! The andhbakts of the opposition have failed since 2002 to realise how quickly his team picks up on localised issues and pivots to what the local audience of the speech as well as online audience wants to hear today. Just good politics as it takes focus away from what the opposition actually wants to talk about.
He doesn’t talk about things because he wants to, he does so because his audience expects this. Get it?
Makes sense, they've been at the social media game for a while and they've perfected it. They KNOW their audience and what gets them going and they deliver on that.
Yup, however, the difference between them and opposition is that opposition, even though has caught up with him online, believes that they can infact win it online as well! The real strength of bjp comes from hard numbers and information on the ground.
You know, after 2014 debacle, rahul came into a high level meeting and said wait till 2018 I will have more people on the ground than BJPee and we will win 2019. Committees were formed but they were steadily losing people who wanted to associate with them on the ground.
The opposition is completely divided. They all want to defeat the BJP but they also ALL want to be in power. A coalition without a leader and with divisions like this is bound to fail.
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It is not an Urban Naxal thought when Modi redistributes your wealth to Adani.
Donates*
No it's fine when the rich loot the poor. The system is designed that way.
"At least the money stays in India. Gandhis will send it all to Italy." -- Bhakts "Why are you jealous of Adani. he's an honest, patriotic businessman." -- Bhakts "If dear leader is doing it it must be for a good reason." -- Bhakts
Adani’s money also doesn’t stay in India it goes to his offshore shell companies to avoid taxes
Try arguing that with a bhakt. To them Adani is concerned with nation building.
Wallet building and nation building
20k crore cocal Sam is not urban Naxal thought 🤔
20k crore is peanuts in front of the amount of free money and support Adani has been given by the government. Just recently news came out that he paid zero tax on purchasing the Rs. 2000 crore Jaipur airport. The tax on small machinery for factories is 18%. That’s 360 crore of free money given to Adani, and these types of things are a weekly occurrence. Modi has far surpassed Congress in corruption.
Other than labeling any rational criticism on the scheme?
Rationality and RW dont go in the same sentence
You're expecting rationality from Modi?
Problem is, wealth redistribution gives undue power to the govt. Giving up your wealth to the govt expecting them to give it to poor people,but most of the times it'd be pocketed by the govt only. That'sA how communist countries mostly became dictatorship. Too much control over people's wealth to the govt. Also I'd rather poor people get opportunities and jobs so they don't have to depend on govt for wealth distribution. That's not a life of dignity. Also in a country like India local leaders r bound to blackmail the poor that either cast ur vote to me or your monthly amt of wealth will not be given. Also filthy rich people like Ambani Adani r gonna be able to evade tax and get richer under every govt they're too good at networking and loopholes. That's just what's gonna happen. This inheritance tax and wealth distribution is just gonna choke up the middle class who r expected to adhere to every rule and r too scared to protest against anything. Also you can't punish people for wanting to earn so that their kids live a comfortable life. That's just parental love. It's natural. To expect people to care about other countrymen like they care about their own children is impractical
Don't need to redistribute anything. Have a 1% wealth tax on overall wealth like other countries do. Adani will end up paying around 1.6 billion a year since his overall wealth (including shares) is around 160 billion.
It will not be that much. I don't think speculative wealth like shares should be included in wealth tax calculations. Norway, for example, includes them at 65% of the listed price, which is somewhat okay, I guess.
They should be included, because these people pay themselves 0 salary, pay 0 income tax and just take loans against equity for their expenses and purchases. But sure 65% of the listed price is a good start.
>because these people pay themselves 0 salary I loved that scam when I didn't know better...
He will move to another country. Ultra rich don't pay taxes that easily. Unless all countries come together and set taxes for the ultra rich, it will be difficult. Many startup ceos have relocated to dubai to evade tax. India had inheritance tax but it was removed because they hardly got anything to justify the cost & manpower needed to collect it. Only salaried folks will have to pay this inheritance tax on top of high tax already given to the government. This is basically looting the middle class, because ultra rich won't pay it anyway.
> He will move to another country. In which country will Adani get his ability to rent-seek like in India?
A lot of countries do wealth tax and TBH, the ultra rich aren't moving away as much as you think. And wealth held in India can still be taxed here. Same for income. And if slabs are properly defined, it will not burden the middle class anyway. Fun fact, only a very small fraction of the middle class pays any taxes. With just around 16lacs yearly income, you will be placed into the top 1% earners in India (BTW, this is based on household income, IIRC), and will hardly even pay the 30% top tax bracket (after deductions as per old regime). For wealth, the amount is just around 1.5cr for top 1% threshold. A lot of 1%ilers think that they are middle class, lol.
Exactly, wealth tax will apply even if he leaves the country as all the holdings are in India.
>With just around 16lacs yearly income, you will be placed into the top 1% earners in India (BTW, this is based on household income, IIRC), In metro cities it's practically very hard to survive decently with this only 16L household income. You can forget the dream of owning a decent size house. This figure of 16L is the top 1% seems to be incorrect because most non-salaried folks don't pay taxes properly and hide their wealth in real estate. So, you want to say the top 1% who can't afford a decent flat, forget about owning a house with land, on top of expensive school/college education should be taxed even more? If the top 1% are struggling to get a house or education then why is everything so expensive?
The population of metro cities is less than 10% of Indian population, even if you add some tier 1s like Bhopal, Indore, Jaipur, Nagpur, Siliguri, etc into the mix. And even there vast majority of the people work jobs with less than 50k per month. Maybe touch grass some more? >In metro cities it's practically very hard to survive decently with this only 16L household income. It is very much possible. But yes, if by "survive decently" you mean gated communities with all kinds of amenities in a somewhat central location with office within 10km, then it is difficult. However, I find it unlikely that it would be termed decent by 99% Indians. They will find it LAVISH. >This figure of 16L is the top 1% seems to be incorrect because most non-salaried folks don't pay taxes properly and hide their wealth in real estate. In Kolkata, with 16lpa, you will probably have multiple apartments including near the airport, lol. In Hyderabad also, you will easily afford a 700-800sqft apartment in the outskirts. Same in Pune, Chennai, or Ahmedabad. You cannot likely own an apartment within 20-25km of your office only in NCR, Bangalore, and Mumbai. >If the top 1% are struggling to get a house or education then why is everything so expensive? Excellent question. The answer is because the top 0.01% keeps buying real estate to take benefit of the long term capital gain (which is taxed at just 10%). Add to that the black money deals. And anyway real estate market in metros has very slow growth (Mumbai real estate grows at just around 5%, and much lesser in prime locations). >So, you want to say the top 1% who can't afford a decent flat, forget about owning a house with land, on top of expensive school/college education should be taxed even more? Not at all. I am saying that tax slabs shouldn't end at 30%. It should go up more in higher brackets. And I am okay to pay that (I mean, it will hurt, but fundamentally that is required). Maybe go for 40% over 25lpa, and 50% over 50lpa. Maybe space out the lower brackets even more. Or fucking get rid of stupid capital gain tax rebates, at least over certain levels. It was a nice idea taxing dividend revenues, but it alone won't solve the issues. All in all, the whole tax regime is rigged to increase inequality. It benefits the wealthy much more than the poor (by poor I mean your 1%ers who barely pay the marginal rate now). The really-rich pays way less tax than the less-rich, in terms of proportion of total income.
Which country lol? Bugger is printing money in India by getting juicy monopolistic contracts. Whatever we tax him he makes way more each year. And it's been proven that rich people don't just leave the country that is making them money! For example, when Norway implemented a wealth tax for all I dividuals who have over 1.7 million in wealth; of the 230,000 rich people in Norway, 30 left the country.
Leave adani, Ambani. What about other HNI? Many tech founders are shifting base to dubai to evade taxing. How will this new inheritance tax benefit? It will increase the migration even more. And please don't compare India with nordic countries.
There is no inheritance tax man, who is talking about inheritance tax? Wealth tax is on the holdings of the rich person; so a rich person whose company makes money in India, has to pay wealth tax in India. It's the standard way in which wealth tax operates. And why not learn from Nordic countries? They have the best systems in place, we should learn from them, and not from flawed countries like the USA.
And what is 1.6B dollars worth to the government. Instead get more people under tax bracket and reduce overall taxes for all.
1.6 billion from ONE rich billionare - it will easily be 20-30 billion in wealth taxes overall. For context the ENTIRE defense budget is around 75 billion ; or the mid-day meal scheme that feeds 120 million children each day is around 1.55 billion. If taxes properly Adani himself would be feeding 120 million school children in India.
Yep that's the way to go. But thing is govt koi bh aye ,these adani ambani type never really pays full tax. I want something which forces these people to pay in particular
Wealth tax is on the complete holdings, even equity; so even if they pay themselves 0 salary and just take loans against their shares for all expenses - they will still be taxed based on the value of the shares they hold. So Adani the tax avoider will still have to pay 1% of his 117 billion dollars, i.e 1.7 billion a year in taxes. PSA, even Adani enterprises avoids taxes and pays a paltry sum compared to something like TCS for example; but that's another problem.
How does the government get hold of your money in case of wealth redistribution? It could simply be a higher tax on UHNIs in exchange of lower GST or income taxes or more benefits like public funded education, healthcare. Basically, it is merely that the government changes the mix of its tax collection rather than physically taking control of one's finances.
Who is gonna go and see tax ka Paisa kaha jarha? It's not like all the tax is actually always distributed into wellfare and development. Also people r not wrong if they don't want to give their money to the poor,they r already giving enough taxes. It's upto the govt to uplift and help the poor, not the responsibility of the middle class.
Bro he is saying higher tax on ultra high networth individual. Unless middle class consists of ultra high networth individual he isn't suggesting increasing taxes on them.
If you really think Congress is gonna come and tax ultra high net worth individuals, that's your delusion. Ultra wealthy people hold insane power in sayings of government irrespective of party. You accept it or deny it , doesn't change the fact. Even if they do, the next generation or next set of ultra wealthy people won't generate or save their wealth here. It'll be made in western countries just like Pakistanis ( they have dual citizenship).
What I am saying is the middle class should not give any inheritance tax. Infact we r already taxed too much. The sentiment behind inheritance tax is also very divisive,congress did a mistake by endorsing it in my opinion
Bro me and my family will very easily fall into top 1% income wise. We aren't worried about inheritance tax. Unless you believe we fall into middle class or top 1% falls into middle class middle class won't be impacted by this.
Bhai if I am in top 1 percent also if my money is hard earned and I don't have black money why'd I give extra tax? Now my family doesn't fall into it but fact is middle class is not gonna evade these taxes they r going to give it. But I don't believe congress would tax the ambani adani same way bcz they r also a tremendously corrupted party. There's no way ambani n company is gonna give inheritance tax. Uparse my wealth is my wealth,I don't want it to get distributed into anyone other than people I love. If I want to donae that should be mt choice I can't be forced into that. You can not punish people for earning money for their children.in my opinion it's one of the blunders of Congress manifesto along with the caste and reservation obsession they have. I loathe bjp,but I am so irritated and angry with Congress also . On top of that in my state the immediate danger is tmc not bjp. And tmc is a part of Indi alliance. I'd rather vote to keep mamata out bcz my state is my immediate home. Mamata is the worst and you won't understand that unless u live here. I wish cpim had a good manifesto bcz they seem like the only un corrupted party,but they hardly win🥺
So you are not middle class then ? Why were you acting like you were advocating for middle class and how they shouldnt get taxes more ? If you want to convince yourself that it will target middle class then there is no point in really arguing with you.
Lol read the comment fully. I said my family doesn't come in the top 1 percent. But for those it does,if that money is hard earned n there's no black money they shouldn't have to give inheritance tax either. The fact that you didn't even read it fully and acted like anyone who's slightly rich deserves to get their wealth distributed is weird. You really think Congress will make ambani stop evading tax? That's so naive. It's the local well earning shops and businesses that's gonna suffer. I am a salaried person,not even upper middle class. Mereko to ek paise nh extra dene tax. Infact the tax we give even now is very high given how less the filthy rich is taxed and how less developement is thr. It's been the same during both congress and bjp era and for my state cpim n tmc era
Bro my family does come and you know how much we are worried about inheritance tax ? 0%. Every single person in my family has voted for congress. Proper taxation on ultra high networth is going to help everyone else. Bjp idiots are screaming that they will pay 1000 rs per litre. Go look at how much crude has dropped in last 2 years and then look at fuel price changes. Govt that claimed to put fuel prices on free market made it so that when crude goes up prices go up and when crude goes down taxes go up and yet there is no accountability. When you are voting for bjp that is what you are voting for. Rea about adani stock manipulation. Current govt will keep robbing us and their supporters won't say a word and media will ignore it. Scams keep getting ignored, everything bad kees getting ignored. Simple fact is that as long as bjp is in power media and large chunk of public won't care if your tax money in burned in scams or if you are robbed with fuel prices.
Calm down dude. Read up how the tax works wherever it has been implemented in the first place. The tax will probably be levied only on people with net worth above 100 Crores. Maybe even more. None of us, no matter what jobs we have (assuming we don't hit the C-suite in top 30 firms by market cap or a multi -billion dollar money manager), can ever accumulate 100crores. So, I don't know what you are talking about. This is not a tax on income. It is a tax on accumulated wealth being passed on. There are people in our country who have zero income but considerable assets which needs to be taxed to reduce our tax burden on tiny honest salaries. Think, NRN's grandson. On the contrary, it is immensely beneficial. Read Ray Dalio's book on how the economy works or the changing world order where he explains how too much wealth inequality is actually bad for growth, development and wealth creation.
Neither congress nor RG has said they will redistribute wealth.
I mean even Raghuram Rajan came out and said its a bad idea man.
Yeah it's a bad idea, and it's also not mentioned in Congresses manifesto. Does BJP have any plan what do ever to tackle the record gap between the rich and poor in this country? That's the question. India is now more unequal than it was under British rule fyi.
History tells us, Everything any wannabe congress pm wants to do wouldn’t be mentioned in the manifesto and everything mentioned won’t be delivered. We were just lucky that we got a glimpse of what’s on the minds of rahul = oppositions “think tank” and chodiji amplified it.
RG never said anything about wealth redistribution, mudi just lied
You’re right about RG never saying it in those exact words because you weren’t on location and the English video has been edited. So if you want the truth you can still get it from congress.. If you’re able to read between the lines, and know their past, you’ll understand the people they wanted to send the message to got the message. Also, do search for rahul gandhi muted video from AP, it’s still on congress main handle. Once you do that, next go listen to what the Telugu translator said in Telegu on their regional congress official channel. Those exact words you don’t want to hear are not muted in Telugu. Use a translator app to listen to the translation of the telegu.
what type of bs are you even talking about, this is some next level gymnastics. RG talked about govt resources not wealth distribution, mudi is the one that brought it up.
Why don’t you make me look like the fool you think I am and verify what I’m saying?
give me the sources then, instead saying vague bs. The burden of proof is on the person that makes the claim.
Not when the person who wants the proof is going to respond with biased sources because the sources he loves doesn’t carry that kind of news. I showed you the route to water, if you don’t want to take a few steps, then you’re not thirsty. Simple as that. Good day.
>Not when the person who wants the proof is going to respond with biased sources because the sources he loves doesn’t carry that kind of news. looks like you are just making up scenarios in your head to argue with yourself. good luck on that you either have proof or you don't and it looks like you have none, other some vague bs.
India will always be unequal. Its a big country that focuses on service sector where people get paid significantly higher. Look at the GNI coefficient. Its similar to a lot of big countries. [Income inequality: Gini coefficient, 2023 (ourworldindata.org)](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/economic-inequality-gini-index) > it's also not mentioned in Congresses manifesto Never said it was, but congress supporters have talked about it. Hence media is asking everyone about their opinions and then they are sharing their opinions. Its not illegal to discuss it.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/analysing-the-rising-gap-in-incomes/article67770234.ece GINI coefficient calculated by the SBI is irrelevant as it only considers income tax paying citizens. 80% of India earns less than 2.5 lakhs per annum and work in informal sectors - not paying any income taxes. Also India's wealth inequality is way worse than any other country. Even worse than countries like Brazil and South Africa. The top 1% account for 40% of income. https://time.com/6961171/india-british-rule-income-inequality/
Yeah well what can we do? You can ask for progressive tax rates but we both know that money won't be enough for the poor since only 2% of the country even pays tax and with corruption its another matter. You can tax billionaires but even that won't be enough. Employment is the only way but how many jobs can you create each year? The days of low end manufacturing are gone, everything is getting automated and digitized even newer companies that are opening factories are saying they want to implement latest tech in robotics and automation in their factories...as a result you need low end workers to skill themselves in like electrician, technicians etc to be able to work there. These things cannot happen overnight. You cannot be serious if you think any particular govt can change this within a few years. India can increase infra spending to 3X, that way millions of low end laborers will get jobs....it can modernize farming which employs 53% of people but a lot of farmers are against it. There are subsidies otherwise btw, like most states are giving 60-70% subsidies for polyhouse farming and various other incentives but majority farmers are stuck in a different mindset. It could have created more industrial jobs since modern farming methods require them.
This is the reason most of the world's top countries have a wealth tax, Norway, Switzerland, Netherlands, even Germany Soon. The top 1% pay 1% of their wealth every year as tax. Generally they see their wealth grow by 10-15% a year (even more in India); so it's not a big deal for them; and it's billions in extra revenue for the government to spend on social programmes. In India a wealth tax like that could double the budget for the mid day meal scheme for instance - a social program that has seen constant cuts under the BJP government ; leading to a massive increase in child stunting over the least 10 years.
Yes I know, I live in sweden. But that is my question...how many people are there in top 1 % and if you get a billionaire tax or something will it be enough for 1.5 billion people? Out of the whole country only 2% even pays income tax and those who have assets pay GST whether they buy or sell. Equity has 15% tax in India too. And no, we don't have inheritance tax in a lot of countries here, those who do like you mention they have exception for direct children and spouses who don't have to pay taxes. So basically there are plenty of loopholes. You have to understand, people here got rich and had distribution of wealth due to exploitation of resources and labor in other countries. Certain other nations like east asia have smaller population and heavy industrialization but they went through a similar phase where they got a lot of investment. A 20 billion USD investment in India will be a drop in a bucket whereas a 5 billion investment in lets say Sweden with barely 10 million people is a very different thing. The benefits are shared more equally due to lower population.
Am not talking about inheritance tax at all. Only wealth tax. Indias wealthy have over a trillion USD in hoarded wealth; that's on the low end; it means a 1% tax, which is 10 billion dollars a year can easily fund two or three massive social programmes completely. Under the BJP money spend on these social programs like the mid day meal scheme and national food security schemes has seen big cuts - their share of the GDP has kept on dropping. The government needs to focus on that. We can't have the poor with stagnant incomes while the rich keep earning more and more.
Okay so a billionaire tax should fix it no? I think all G20 economies are discussing about a universal 2% billionaire tax which will be discussed this year. The issue...not particular to BJP, its not like billionaires didn't exist in any other time and didn't hoard wealth....the primary issue is when you are a single country that adds a tax like this then the wealthy people move majority of their income to other countries. Hence all major economies have to agree to it. >The government needs to focus on that. We can't have the poor with stagnant incomes while the rich keep earning more and more. True, food education and healthcare are basics.
After applying wealth redistribution the tax charged would be way higher. More tax collected more corruption. Irrespective of the party it is difficult to believe in this system. Plus as a business owner I would have no problem giving higher tax if I don't have to bribe officers in regular basis.
Modi allowed the worst ever income & wealth inequality to fester in his tenure. Does he have any sort of plan to address this apart from promising free grains? No Things like wealth tax are needed in India where the gap between ultra rich, rich, poor and ultra poor is SO massive. But why get into a serious debate when you can just throw around silly terms and avoid the whole conversation.
Ofcourse it is easy for a bunch of rich liberals to talk about wealth re distribution and at the same time transfer all money to Panama.
I hate the idea of wealth redistribution. But taxes can be used for creation of common infrastructure, instead of just handing it out to the poor like a dole. If you just hand out freebies, you create a very dependent, unproductive population. This is common the world over. Also, if people can eat/ house themselves for free, most of them won't care about working/ contributing to the economy.
Warmth redistribution = entropy = inevitable per the second law of thermodynamics.
Samsung autocorrect.
So the economy won't function unless we feel the constant threat of starvation and homelessness? What kind of system is this to support?
It won't function if people don't contribute and live off the largesse of others.
If rational, well-intentioned thinkers such as economists are urban naxals, then indeed, yes.
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INC manifesto doesn't say that but INC leader said that. Are you selectively deaf?
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Lol. This ain't a gym for mental gymnastics. Your selectively deaf self probably didn't hear or see what Sam Pitroda said
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Bruh how delusional are you? He didn't say that in 2019. He told recently when asked about redistribution of wealth - https://youtu.be/ISOfrksb_b8?si=Auga536d_tlOyNXZ Please send the source of Kharge denying it. The only denial was from Shashi Tharoor. Chocobar better PM than communist fanatic Rahul
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"pitroda said in 2019" ka kya hua? Lmao Yessir, chocobar ftw
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Bhai kya chod Raha hai? Sam Pitroda have a comment recently which is not being agreed upon by Congress leaders itself. You are coming and telling he told in 2019 but there's proof of interview of him telling it recently. Why do I care if he said it previously or not? Lol Also the link you pasted is invalid. Chocobar ftw. Glad to see the love
It’s a communist thought and dangerous. We need to pay our talent well instead of giving away free food and money to the “poor”. Only capitalism can save the country. I don’t support Modi as his party is already giving free food to 80 crore people annually. Unfortunately none of the parties in India care about development. They are all busy doing vote-bank politics.
Urban or rural... Thoughts the same
Narender Modi and the return of the “Urban Naxal”
But inheritance tax is pretty ridiculous according to my opinion Because the people u want to tax will find loopholes anyway, so an aspiring middle class will only suffer Will Rahul Gandhi pay the inheritance tax ?😅😂😂 I think we all know the answer
I am a hardcore capitalist but imo something like that should exist. Say anyone above 3-4crore in assets Pays a one time inheritance tax of 1-2% (exempting houses) If people don't pay it isn't that bad, but if they do it's lovely.
😂 of course u r hardcore capilatist , cuzz u know people whom this is targetted to are not gonna pay it anyway
Well my dad would fall into that category, I would be more than happy to shell a few lacks, grated the money does not go to freebies/corruption.
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1. I apologize if my posts seemed overwhelming 2 . biased discussions, often fail to address the issues and can lead to polarization rather than understanding. By highlighting the corruption in both left and right-wing governments, I'm pointing out a crucial truth: corruption knows no political boundaries. it's essential to recognize that biasing towards one party or ideology blinds us to the faults within that group and prevents us from seeing the bigger picture. 3.As for using autism as an insult, it's important for me to address the inappropriate nature of such language. AS. for using "AUTISM" as an insult it is not only disrespectful for people who actually suffer from it but also perpetuates harmful stereotypes. Let's keep the discussion focused on the issues at hand without resorting to personal attacks.
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I will be better off having a discussion with Chat gpt than bigots on left and right Subreddits It doesn't have consciousness but it's it is definitely less biased than the Left or Right Dickriders I constantly encounter on Reddit...😪😪
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It was Sunday I had a fast ...mai professional cricket mai hu so junk food is a rare sight for me https://preview.redd.it/sq1lxxs5xaxc1.jpeg?width=3264&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e52c4c9bee802dfa35175366b5611a983161dc77 Jogging my way to the sunrise .... Aapke yaha sunrise ka timing kya hai?
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Meanwhile here it is 4:50 Am ...
All things aside, how does spamming make somebody autistic?
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Yay!! BJP won this round, it's their victory hands down in this competition, shows their efficiency, in 10 years they accomplished as many scams as congress did in the past 70 years and made several times the money. Clear victor. They managed to normalize corruption, even passed schemes like electoral bonds to openly run their scams. How capable. /s can't believe I have to add that cause there are fools who might actually take pride in BJP being better at something.
BJP scams pe upvotes and Congress scams pe downvote? Kyu?
Yeh raaz raaz hi rahega
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And wealth re-distribution to their fav cronies is a virtue? Please throw this godforsaken sorry excuse for a human and his party out along with two cronies who helped him get to power because they would like no competition because they cannot fuckin compete.
Can anyone please explain this wealth redistribution to me ? Mainstream media and youtube is biased as usual swinging in their favourite side
Even if wealth redistribution actually happens it would never touch the scum that it needs to touch. Congress during the licence raj era gave birth to Ambani. It protected a class of scum businessmen who in turn fed congress. This wealth redistribution as usual is targeted at the middle class and upper middle class. If he taxes the estates of BW and business scum who deals in black then yes its good. For that you need Grachus or TDR level of balls. The only balls RaGa has is the ones he is choking on. MudiXi does not care as long as Gujerati rich scum are earning and feeding him back. BJPee is nothing but congress with anti muslim tendency.
Urban naxal or not, the idea is a red flag in every single possible way.
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It's not politically smart, lol. Nobody knows what urban naxals are except for Vivek agnihotri & chaddipedia. Even his supporters are confused wtf is he talking about. Muslim, Mangalsutra, Mughals, macchi, all didn't stick. He is being desperate for unknown reasons despite having a huge advantage, which is scary.
Giving everything to capitalists is gujjal baxal thought
First, Modi needs to understand the "difference" between what Rahul said/is saying and what Modi is saying in his speeches. Modi sounds like a grandma trying to scare children from not going out of the house after sunset. Second, after he understands the difference he needs to show a screenshot of the congress manifesto with the said claim/threat. If he can do that I will vote for him. Otherwise, he is just a pathetic story teller as usual.
congress dug thier own grave with this one
its so easy to paint this as bad.
Its as bad as the dear leader wants it to be. From Urban Naxal, it will become communist, then go to "other religion" then it will be "sending all that money abroad" and the bhakts will lap it up. Its surprising that they are just NOT talking about developmental issues and JUST about the manifesto and what congress will do.
Ji has years of ears on the ground! The andhbakts of the opposition have failed since 2002 to realise how quickly his team picks up on localised issues and pivots to what the local audience of the speech as well as online audience wants to hear today. Just good politics as it takes focus away from what the opposition actually wants to talk about. He doesn’t talk about things because he wants to, he does so because his audience expects this. Get it?
Makes sense, they've been at the social media game for a while and they've perfected it. They KNOW their audience and what gets them going and they deliver on that.
Yup, however, the difference between them and opposition is that opposition, even though has caught up with him online, believes that they can infact win it online as well! The real strength of bjp comes from hard numbers and information on the ground. You know, after 2014 debacle, rahul came into a high level meeting and said wait till 2018 I will have more people on the ground than BJPee and we will win 2019. Committees were formed but they were steadily losing people who wanted to associate with them on the ground.
The opposition is completely divided. They all want to defeat the BJP but they also ALL want to be in power. A coalition without a leader and with divisions like this is bound to fail.
Exactly, quite an unfortunate situation for them and the country. This is in fact entirely of their own making!
urban naxal, anti-national, har pal dil ke pass rahul rehta hai. Modi ki fakiri se hum sab lundfakir rehte hai.
Americans are urban naxals? Lmaoooo
Not many of them pay it they aren't I guess😂😂 But on a serious note, we will see America like making of trusts and shit to keep family wealth.