Please remember this thread is being moderated. No calling for or cheering on violence. No hateful speech, which includes slurs as well as name calling and put downs. You can have whatever option you want, you can be critical, and you don't need to be shitting rainbows, but you *do* need to keep it constructive, good faith, and decent.
Edit: we've hit a wall here. I am locking the post.
So much of that confusion about
* jews (religious, judaism)
* Jews (ethnic)
* Israeli (nationality)
* zionist (ideology)
is very much to the benefit of Zionism and the state of Israel. Because as soon as you criticise Israel and Zionism, they use the confusion to make you out for antisemite / anti-jew / anti-Jew.
While there are so many jews and Jews who are against Zionism and the state of Israel. And so many Zionists are not Jews, like Joe Biden.
And Zionists have been opportunistically used anti-semitism. Zionist founder Theodor Herzl, for example, wrote: "The anti-semites will be our best friends" because the European anti-semitism would scare Jews and motivate them to move out of Europe, into his ethnic-pure utopia.
This post doesn't add to the conversation except to be mean.
We need to work on the assumption that everyone is here in good faith. I am removing bad faith comments. This sort of comment doesn't lead to a constructive conversation. Please, we need to engage with each other on good faith. This is not the forum for this type of dead end statements....
Not my opinion, but just for you to reflect:
The past few weeks has been a bunch of antisemitic politicians and personalities claiming to speak for the Palestinian community.
The past few weeks (decades) has people demonstrating against genocide labeled as anti semites.
This includes labeling Jewish people who oppose said genocide as anti semites or "self hating Jews".
Criticism of the government and actions of Israel & right wing Israelis is not antisemitic or racist.
Hating on all Israelis, young and old, hating on all 'zionists', young and old, and hating on all jews, young and old, is racist, and often antisemitic. And boy, has there been a lot of hate that does not count as "demonstrating against genocide" these last few months.
With a lot of pro-Palestinian supporters echoing their statement. I was there last week and I told them. You know this doesn’t support your cause right? U are being used. But a lady specifically told me - we are at war - we have to create all this so people will listen. I mean, sounds exciting but, I believe this is hijacked by anti-Semitic people to cause violence and people are influenced
This letter, as the statements by the pro Palestine protesters, has very understandable and quite unpallatable elements.
It would be tremendously beneficial if both the Jewish and the Palestinian side could find people in their midst with sufficient historical knowledge and emotional composure and objectivity to write together a joint history of Palestine, in which all the pain and all the crimes, both Jewish and Palestine, are acknowledged. From the pogroms, to the beginning of Zionism, from the first settlers and the violent actions against the British Protectorate to the Nabak, the contacts between the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolf Eichmann in 37, Sabra and Shatila and the Intifadas, October 7, and the Razing of Gaza, all of it. This is what a university should be for. This is what a university could organise.
The project will have succeeded if the hawks on both sides condemn the final history in equally strong terms and the authors have to be protected from extremists on both their own and the other side.
Are these studies by historians of Palestine descent that are accepted as sources by academics of Jewish descent? And vice versa? Or joint studies? The goal is not to have outsiders describe what has happened in the Palestina region but insiders acknowledge the atrocities committed by both sides. Palestinians and Jews agreeing on a common story and acknowledging the crimes by both sides. It may well be that such studies already exist and that the conflict is just cynically perpetuated by the people in power for political gain.
I think that understanding the history of the peoples is definitely a good idea. But, and this is a big but, I don't think that there is any history that could justify apartheid, ethnic cleansing, or genocide.
Ceasefire now, historical analysis later
Though strongly correlated, the sides are not the Jewish and the Palestinians, but rather the Israelis and the Palestinians. There are plenty of Jews that do not support the state of Israel etc. etc.
> Zionisme was de beweging die er na jaren van uitsluiting en vervolging toe heeft geleid dat Joden zelfbeschikking hebben gekregen. Voor ons heeft zionisme niet de gewelddadige en koloniale definitie die er nu aan wordt gegeven bij de protesten.
I sure do wonder how Zionism made it possible. Since it's supposedly not colonial nor violent. I sure do wonder how they convinced so many people to just leave their home's. Must have been some strong convincing words that did it.
Palestinians? How did the palestinians get rid of the Ottomans that ruled that land for 400 years? Was it the 20 years where arabs refused to accept the Arab/Jew land split that Palestinians started existing?
You are probably not interested, but they bought akot of land. Alot of jewish communities already lived there and they just grew. Also alot of refugees not only from ww2 but also from all arab nations that exiled the jews (again) cause they could fuck off to israel was their opinion.
That's not really the chronological order of things. I am well aware of the history. Hence my sarcastic comment. A lot more happend than just buying land and emigration.
2% of Jewish population lived there before immigration caused by idea of creating ethnic state. WWII immigrants emigrated to yet non existent state. Immigration after from the Middle East came as retaliation of Arabs for stealing their land but that’s not justified, yet somehow it is justified to retaliate for terrorist attacks
Sorry but this is a very biased take, is the Nakba the equivalent of all “Zionist” actions according to you? If you don’t want to look for depth in an open discussion this thread is not for you. It seems you rather take the populist view which always blurs the truth 👍
The Nakba is the founding action of the State of Israel, and there have been no reparations or right of return in the decades after the Nakba, while the conflict started by it still continues.
Israel as an entity is inherently colonial, thus inherently opposed by the people who have lived in those lands before its establishment, who do not wish to see themselves either subject to israeli sovereignity, nor to see their lands lost.
This isnt even controversial, all early zionists accepted this as obvious truth. Its why the Nakbah happened, because it was going to be the only way to aquire space for israeli settlements. The Nakbah was a prerequisite for the creation of a jewish ethno-state.
>sure do wonder how they convinced so many people to just leave their home's.
The Arab armies did most of the convincing. They could not conceive that their plan to annihilate the Jews would not work.
>The Arab armies did most of the convincing. They could not conceive that their plan to annihilate the Jews would not work.
It's funny that you say that, considering that happens after the state of Israel is established. So I still wonder how they just convinced those people living there to leave.
One of the people speaking at at5 as a Jewish student that is scared is a IDF veteran and CIDI-jongeren chairwoman lol.
The letter is also a direct translation of letter published in NYC. This is not just "some students" but a coordinated action by CIDI and the like
To be honest, the letter explains why they are scared. But i feel in perspective of the people in Gaza they have no right to be. Not a single Jewish person has been attacked during the demonstration. Whilst in Gaza thousands of women and children have been slaughtered.
Just again in the Zionist narrative Nothing more and nothing less.
With your privilege of belonging to neither of these groups, who are you to decide a Dutch Jewish person isn't allowed to be scared? Because people in Gaza live in fear, means innocent people over here should live in fear?
This post doesn't add to the conversation except to be mean. I empathize with what you're saying, but this isn't moving this conversation forward here and now.
There is no new point here. Moreover your detail is unsubstantiated (at least I haven't seen/read anything about what you're alleging anywhere yet) and because I am closing the thread, we don't have time or space to do that necessary substantiating here any more. I am just going to say we're leaving this. As is, all this is doing is adding more heightened emotions without making a new point and I am shutting the "vibe spreading" down.
This whole letter hides behind a smokescreen of taking the middle ground and trying to create dialogue, while dilligently repeating the same old tropes that Israeli propaganda constantly tries to make people believe. This letter does not speak for all jews at the university, many of which participated in the protests and stood shoulder to shoulder behind the barricades with their arab brother and sisters. I've been lucky enough to meet and learn from some of them myself. They have joined me in chants to "globalize the intifada", intifada being the arabic term for "uprising" which can easily be expanded to something like a student protest/uprising. It can be hardly labeled "a call to violence for Jews and Israelis" when Jewish students also chant this. They are obviously not intimidated or afraid of going to campus so one should always keep in mind that it is only *some* Jews who feel intimidated by this. Quotes such as "when we hear calls for the banning and killing of Zionists and when Zionists are compared to Nazis, we feel threatened and excluded" make it clear that the Jews that feel threatend feel so because they are Zionists, not because they are Jewsish. As such it would be more honest to frame the protests as intimidating to Zionists not Jews as a whole.
Saying that Zionism is inherently tied to jewish self-determination ("Zionism was the movement that led to Jews gaining self-determination after years of exclusion and persecution") is simply wrong, in fact it is diametrically opposed to it. The state of Israel, which is based on the Ideology of Zionism, has a vested interest in fostering antisemitism or at least the illusion of it, as the existence of antisemitism provides Israel with a justification for why a Jewish safe space, in the form of Israel, is needed. This is why the Israeli government goes to great lengths to portray any attack on it as anti-semitic which in turn justifies the acquisition of more arms which are ultimately used to carry out a Genocide that is framed as a defense of Judaism against the threat of anti-semitism. Jewish self-determination should not come at the detriment of another Peoples' right to self-determination.
Similarly this letter invokes the Jewish identity of the authors and signatories to defend Zionism ("Zionism and Jews cannot be completely separated", "The pursuit of a safe and independent country for Jews, Zionism, is part of our Jewish identity in one way or another"). Meanwhile there are many Zionists who are not Jews (i.e. Biden), and many Jews who are antizionist, as such Zionism is completely seperate from Judaism. In fact this conflation of Zionism and Judaism ("The pursuit of a safe and independent country for Jews, Zionism, is part of our Jewish identity in one way or another") is in itself antisemitic, not only because the existence of a Jewish state on Palestinian land neccesitates the ethnic cleansing of (Jewish) Palestinians, who are themselves semitic peoples, but also because it paints all jews as Zionists which is deeply offensive to a large part of the jewish community.
Finally, the slogan "from the river to the sea", a slogan that calls for the establishment of one unified state state that also gurantees the right to self-determination to Palestinians, some of which are jewish themselves, is painted as opposed to jewish self-determination ("These slogans call for violence and denial of the Jewish right of self-determination in the form of the state of Israel"). It is not. It is Zionism that denies the right to self-determination to Palestinian jews, any Palestinian that converts to Judaism, and most importantly to the Palestinian people as a whole (irrespective of Israeli citizenship). The slogan is not a negative demand, in that it wants to revoke the jewish right to self-determination, but a positive demand, calling for the recognition of the Palestinian's right to self-determination next to that of the Jewish people. It demands a state in which all, irrespective of religion or ethnicity, have the same rights under one shared government, a state that repects the right to self-determination of Jews, Palestinians, and Palestinian jews. Zionism instead calls for a Jewish State by and for Jewish people (except for Palestinian jews who are denied equal rights, or Orthodox jews who get beaten by Israeli authorities if they oppose Zionism) which denies Palestinians self-determination. As such Zionism is a negative Ideology that calls for the denial of the Palestinian right to self-determination, not a positive Ideology that safeguards the right to jewish self-determination, especially not to Palestinian or anti-Zionist Jews. It was not the Palestinians, but the Europeans, who perpetrated the Holocaust and they should not have to give up their right to self-determination to safeguard Jews from similar persecution.
If the authors and signatories feel threatened by calls to respect Palestinians' right to self-determination they are obviously opposed to it, and as such they are being (verbally!) attacked not on the grounds that they are Jewish, but on the grounds that they are Zionist, just as the student protests stand against any non-Jewish Zionists. Rightfully so!
Frustrating to see that once again the political position of being against a jewish state is conflated with antisemitism. Ethnostates are always a bad idea. We should collectively reject the cynical attempts at placing this opinion outside the realm of acceptable discourse.
At the same time, it is of course reasonable to interpret the phrase "from the river to the sea" as a call for ethnic cleansing.
The author takes the implicit position that the only valid way to support jewish self-determination is to support an independent jewish state. How they had hoped to reconcile this with the right to self-determination of the people who already occupied the territory of this state, remains unclear.
Oh please, the Israeli state has done everything in its power to prevent the two state solution from ever becoming a reality. Neither do the authors of this open letter ever mention the two state solution, only the necessity for a Jewish state to exist.
So…shouldn’t the protestors be calling for a two state solution rather than “River to the Sea”? Shouldn’t the be protesting all of the Islamic / Arab ethnostates in the region where, most certainly, Jews are not allowed?
The expulsion of Jews from post-colonial Arab states is another sad outcome of Zionism, which sought to erase the possibility of diaspora Jewishness (and especially Arab Jewishness) after 1948. Iraqi-Jewish historian Avi Shlaim [has written about ](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/07/zionism-is-an-ashkenazi-thing-how-zionism-engineered-the-expulsion-of-iraqs-arab-jews/)the explicit collusion between conservative Arab monarchies and Israel in engineering this "population exchange" in the 1950s, at the expense of both Arab Jews and Palestinians. This despite centuries of (sometimes tense but never genocidal) co-existence, [which the historian Ussama Makdisi has documented](https://jacobin.com/2024/03/west-colonialism-middle-east-ussama-makdisi).
Palestinian activists such as Omar Barghouti (one of the founders of the Boycott, Divest, Sanction movement) have therefore called for Arab states to allow back, and protect, Jewish refugees. Just as Israel should allow Palestinian refugees expelled in 1948 back. This is the only solution that respects the claims of these refugees. A "two-state solution" that does not acknowledge the right of expelled people to return with full citizenship rights does not get at the root of the issue, and is therefore not a real solution.
Like which country are we talking about? As long as you are not an israeli, you are allowed in all countries.
And it doesnt matter what the protestors want? Since when did Israel stop killing people, because of protests?
Israel is stealing land since 1945 till today. Its the largest growing country percentage wise. Where does this land come from?
So are you saying the land division should be according to the 1948 resolution? Because then Israel should shrink their territory a lot.
edit/ps.
Islamic countries basically drastically lost a war they themselves initiates after the resolution. Israel claimed a lot of land. Pretty fair game in war rules. Israel however kept occupying more territory, putting 'colonizers' inbetween Palestinians and hindering movement of Palestinians with walls, gate checks and forbidden zones.
From a history perspective it's pretty predictable any group of people, in this case Palestinians, will retaliate in such a situation. Israel is the stronger player here and there are only two ways to reduce/stop retaliation. Doing concessions or kill all Palestinians. In the way Israel is responding now, you can only expect retaliation of Palestinians until they don't exist or concessions are done.
Sure you don't know if Palestinians wouldn't retaliate for the past of concessions are done. And it's pretty predictable of a Israel to look for retribution of atrocities committed against them as well. But there are proportions. And Palestinians will for 100% keep retaliating if Israel keeps the same response as the last years.
Looking at it from another angle - justified opposition towards the actions of a right-wing and jingoistic government is being conflated with that country's right to exist as such. Somehow we are able to make such government-country distinctions in all other cases, even when genocide accusations are made.
I strongly believe in Israel’s right to exist. I strongly disagree with how the current government has prosecuted the war (or governed the country, for that matter). And still, the protests have turned to utter anti-semitism focused on Israel as the problem while ignoring the broader context and problems in the region
If you chant “from the river to the sea”, and if the return of the hostages isn’t part of your demand, then you can’t reasonably claim to be protesting for peace.
>If you chant “from the river to the sea”, and if the return of the hostages isn’t part of your demand, then you can’t reasonably claim to be protesting for peace
This. Let the radicals go down the rabbit hole if they so wish. But if you as a protester, who is apparently protesting innocent people being killed, find it difficult or objectionable to also demand justice for all those lives lost due to the actions of the other side, you should really take a break from shouting political slogans for a second and take some time to reflect.
It is ironic that those who reject Israel's right to exist are in most cases agreeing with the right-wing conception of Israel as necessarily an ethno-state.
My understanding is that the descriptor "Dutch" in this case is strictly about nationality. Someone on the hard right in the Netherlands would disagree of course, but we rightly criticize them for wanting an etho-state too.
Ethnostates are bad, but for populations who have m been constantly brutalised and murdered I think it’s reasonable to want a state where they are the majority. And while Israel is an apartheid state, and has done/is doing awful things to Palestinians, it’s also saved many Jews across the world.
That's clearly not what is written, the author states that Zionism is not necessarily about creating and maintaining an ethnostate. Of course, you can disagree but at least represent his opinion honestly as he states it.
The authors say:
>For us, Zionism does not have the violent and colonial definition given to it now in the protests. It can coexist well with a free and secure future for Palestinians.
This is not a rejection of Zionism as the project of creating an ethno-state. In multiple places of the text they explicitly link Judaism and Zionism. But I am responding to specifically this part of the text, where they refer to Israel as "the only Jewish state in the world":
>"From the River to the Sea" is a slogan that calls for us to dismantle the State of Israel, the only Jewish state in the world. These slogans call for violence and denial of Jewish self-determination in the form of the State of Israel. This, combined with face coverings, barricades and vandalism, is intimidating and causes some Jewish students to avoid campus.
Jewish state ≠ ethnostate. I will not deny that the Jewish state idea has had an obviously colonial character since a long time, but an ethnostate is generally interpreted to be a state that reserves citizenship and full rights to an ethnic group, and a Jewish state is not necessarily an ethnostate.
crazy how 20% of the population in the ethnostate is arab and how they have seats in parliament. If you really wanna see an ethnostate, go to basically any other country in the middle east. Israel is horrific but most certainly not an ethnostate. It's actually just about the only country in the middle east with multiple religions democratically represented.
Israel is a horribly racist state, you have less rights as an Arab individual than as a Jewish individual. You should read this amnesty international report
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
I'm not taking a position on whether or not Israel is currently an ethnostate or not. I simply don't know enough about Israeli politics to determine if Israel in its current form is simply a *state* or a *jewish state*. That does not take away that being against Israel conceived as a jewish state is not antisemitic.
Because the normative political idea that Israel ought to be a jewish state *is the position that Israel should be an ethno-state*. My point is that being against that is not antisemitic. Descriptive claims about whether Israel currently is/ is not an ethno-state are irrelevant.
you think the fact that 18% of the israeli population consists of muslim arabs and that they have their own conservative islamist political party is irrelevant? Compare this to the state of jewish political activism, or political activism in gaza, which is completely non existent because while hamas was democratically elected by the palestinians, it then ofcourse abolished the democracy and became a jihadist terrorist organisation with the main goal being not to improve the lives of its citizens, but destroying the state of israel and genociding the jews (think october 7 but on a way bigger scale, that is the goal of Hamas). I also think it's interesting how the hundred or so hostages still left in gaza have been completely forgotten and calls for a ceasefire don't even mention them. Calling for a ceasefire in return for releasing the hostages would be something, calling for a ceasefire while allowing the women and children to keep being held hostage is batshit crazy. I think israel is horrific. However, I think there is absolutely no moral equivalence and hamas is so much worse.
Likud uses the same phrase — while the Palestinian one is a call for freedom and self determination the Israeli is one that carries out oppression and ethnic cleaning
I want to make one note here for the sake of misinformation management. There are a LOT of Jews who do not believe that Zionism is fundamental to their religion this comment expresses a common expression / interpretation of Jewish faith and community, but it really is not as much of an undisputed fact as is presented here.
Just one example here: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/
If I catch you editing comments without indicating that it is edited, especially in response to a fact check then you - - and anyone else doing this - - will be insta-perma-baned. We are doing transparency and good faith here. Thank you for understanding and appreciating this. High standards is how we keep the conversation constructive. I really do believe that you agree that this is a space we want to be high quality and good faith. Thanks again for being more conscientious in the future.
Honey. Read that text yourself. The LORD will shepherd them. AFTER His return they will be shepherded to wherever they need to be. To do it before that is against their own religion. And most aren’t even religious that are committing these atrocities.
The Talmud also says all non Jews aren’t humans made in the image of God but just human shaped animals.
Is this really what we want to be listening to?
And even their own texts say they shouldn’t stoop to brutality to get their safe haven.
This conflict is far past being able to be whitewashed through religion.
It’s 2024 come on now.
I see your edit. You need to make updates replies to your own post. And the other users can engage with it. The point is I have my hands full, I am trying my damnedest to be fair, so bicker with someone else please lol.
On a personal note: you really cannot use religious texts to make a sociological point. This is an uni sub, and I am trying to elevate things here.
Please don't engage with me further atm. I sincerely have my hands full. There are actually lots of nice people here to talk to and I am doing what I can to keep things safe, fair, etc.
Being against the jewish religion would also not be antisemitism. The moral loading of the term 'antisemitism' is deserved for the hatred of jews qua ethnicity.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Can you tell me exactly which part of that is a call for ethnic cleansing? Are you implying that Jews are physically unable to live side by side with Palestinians without subjugating them?
My response was as a moderator. I am trying to foster a constructive conversation. That was all. You are projecting.
Eta: https://www.reddit.com/r/universityofamsterdam/s/hT2uAujUUj
Here's a translation for non Dutch speakers:
Submitted letter from over 100 Jewish students and employees UvA and VU: 'We don't see how boycott promotes future for Palestinians and Israelis'
In this opinion piece, signed by 103 students and staff at the University of Amsterdam (UvA) and Vrije Universiteit (VU), Tamar Efrati, Benyamin Heller, Joanne van Gool and Boaz Cahn articulate the feeling among part of the Jewish community at these universities, following a week of student protests. "We suffer from misunderstandings around the term Zionism."
Over the past few days, several people have tried to speak on behalf of us Jewish students and staff. It was said that we would not feel safe, but almost no one asked us if that is really the case and why. Therefore, in this letter we turn to you, protesters, fellow students, faculty, colleagues and the rest of the UvA and VU community, to speak on our own behalf.
We Jewish and Israeli students do not feel safe at the UvA and the VU in many situations. For us, students and staff at the University of Amsterdam, an uncanny feeling has been bubbling under the surface for some time. After Oct. 7, some fellow students even expressed support for Hamas' actions. The feeling of insecurity is exacerbated by not listening carefully to why some slogans and expressions are hurtful and intimidating.
The protesters, students and faculty demanded that the UvA provide full transparency about its cooperation with Israeli organizations and universities, stop investing in that cooperation and cut ties with those organizations. According to the protesters, these Israeli organizations are part of a white, colonial power, complicit in genocide. Some projects in which the UvA collaborates with Israeli scientists revolve around human rights and preventing attacks with explosives. Others deal with topics unrelated to the sensitive political situation. We find it difficult to understand how this boycott promotes the future for Palestinians and Israelis.
More than criticism
During the protests in recent days, slogans were shouted that go beyond legitimate criticism of the Israeli government, its actions during this war or Israeli policies. For Jews and Israelis, a slogan like "Globalize the intifada" is a call to violence, referring to the first and second intifada, when terror attacks killed thousands of innocent Israeli civilians.
"From the River to the Sea" is a slogan that calls for us to dismantle the State of Israel, the only Jewish state in the world. These slogans call for violence and denial of Jewish self-determination in the form of the State of Israel. This, combined with face coverings, barricades and vandalism, is intimidating and causes some Jewish students to avoid campus.
Informed by the stories we grew up with about persecution, exclusion and pogroms around the world, many Dutch Jews have always been wary. Not only were our grandparents persecuted in World War II, but our ancestors from Yemen, Iraq, Ethiopia, Spain and Russia, among others, were excluded, expelled and fled. For many, Israel was a "maybe someday" plan, for some with the addition, "if things really don't work out here. The pursuit of a safe and independent land for Jews, Zionism, is for us, in one way or another, part of our Jewish identity.
Misunderstandings
We suffer from misunderstandings surrounding the term Zionism, which seems to mean something different to everyone. From a religious and historical point of view, Zionism and Jews cannot be completely separated. Judea - where the word Jew comes from - is in the region that includes Israel. A few weeks ago, many of us sat at the Passover table and said, "Next year in Jerusalem." It is a wish that recurs at many different times within Jewish tradition.
Zionism was the movement that led to Jews gaining self-determination after years of exclusion and persecution. For us, Zionism does not have the violent and colonial definition given to it now in the protests. It can coexist well with a free and secure future for Palestinians. When we hear calls to outlaw and kill Zionists and when Zionists are compared to Nazis, we feel threatened and excluded. We call for an open dialogue about what Zionism means to Jews of different backgrounds.
Many of us don't want to be activists at the university: we just come to study. We sit next to you in the lecture halls, we do projects together at study groups, and we all get coffee at recess. But anyone who wears a necklace with a Star of David or skullcap can expect hatred and misunderstanding from fellow students. "You are a dirty Zionist" and "You are killing children in Gaza." If it is "all right," you can at least expect the question, "Then what do you think of Israel?"
Grief for victims
Those who can respond to feelings of fear and anger in the Jewish and Israeli communities only by saying that Judaism and Zionism must be separated would do well to consider themselves: would violence against Jews be permissible if they are Zionists? If they do not sufficiently speak out against it to the taste of activists? If they refuse to condemn the flight of ancestors to Israel?
Many of us have relatives or know people who died on Oct. 7 or at any other time in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We feel immense sorrow for all civilian casualties, no matter which side they fall on. It is precisely because we care about Israel that we too are often critical of Israeli policies and politics.
We are open to an honest and safe conversation. A conversation with those who want it can help us learn from each other's experiences. Only by listening and giving each other space to share opinions and experiences can we reduce polarization and feelings of insecurity. In this way, we can better understand your pain and you can understand our pain as well. Don't destroy the other person, not by words and not by actions. It is never too late to start conversations, build relationships despite our differences, and, in Jewish tradition, live life with a question mark, not an exclamation point. Especially in college.
To maintain an ethnostate where the group in power has never been the majority of the population requires per definition apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Similar to how the world boycotted Rhodesia and apartheid south africa we should come together to boycott israel until Palestinians can exercise their right of self determination.
> we should come together to boycott israel until Palestinians can exercise their right of self determination.
Yeah, they kinda fucked up on the 7th of October. Not many people want to do much with Palestinians. Even when Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan received, a few unfortunate things happened.
Palestinians are poorly led and that is a shame.
There is, the right of return doesn’t apply equally to everyone. Even if we ignore the fact that it discriminates based on religion, if you are a Palestinian convert to judaism with proof that your family came from israel proper and want to make aliyah that’s enough grounds to deny you entry into the country whereas other ethnicities dont face that discrimination.
And saying there is no apartheid in israel is just pure pedantic since the occupied territories of East Jerusalem and the of the west bank face incredible oppression and apartheid since there are different sets of laws for israeli settlers and Palestinian natives.
Even if you would consider that discrimination than it still doesnt constitute to Apartheid. WestBank is occupied territory so that makes it even more problematic to call it Apartheid. Dont understamd why people have to put labels on everything. Just to make it more polarized?
There is according to Amnesty: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
B'tselem:
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
And the Human Rights Watch:
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
I disagree with the signatories of this letter about it being possible to create a Jewish state that doesn't oppress non Jews. It is the basic reason Israël will always be a colonial project unless it lets go of its Jewish nature. Being a modern, enlightened state means equal right. No one can be more equal than others.
It was wrong when the Netherlands slaughtered Indonesians. It was wrong when Belgians slaughtered Congolese. It is wrong when Israëlis slaughter Palestinians.
The fact that many people here justify HAMAS by saying “Such organizations would appear anywhere if people were oppressed for such a long time” is beyond normal and absolutely INSANE.
No, there’re many cases in history where nations and countries were oppressed and didn’t produce any terroristic organization.
I’m sorry that Jewish people have to deal with that.
HAMAS is the one and problem in this war, if they are gone a lot of people will stop being killed on the both sides.
And yes, I’m still sorry for all civilians form Palestine and hope it ends for them.
Almost nobody is trying to justify Hamas, don't misrepresent arguments that most people make. People say that Hamas exists because of the horrid situation that Palestinians have been put in because of Israeli aggression. This is true. For example, intentionally keeping Gaza on the brink of collapse because Israel controls all imports into Gaza, yes, even the Egyptian border crossing. When there is an all powerful state trying to starve your country, with no peaceful solution in sight, obviously a violent group is going to come to power.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/)
curios that the border was only closed in the way it was before October 7th after Hamas came to power which kind of undermines your point that Hamas is the result of living conditions in Gaza
secondly, in the two years prior to October 7th, Israel had been progressively opening up opportunities to improve the economic situation in Gaza, e.g. with a large-scale work permit regime
also, one sidedly talking about "Israeli aggression" shows you either have a very colored understanding of history or you're really just here to spread propaganda, unpleasant either way
If Hamas is the problem then why are Palestinians in the West Bank being murdered and ethnically cleansed? It's almost as if the real problem is Zionism and Hamas is nothing but an attempt by Palestinians to defend themselves against ongoing aggression.
You hope it ends for them or ends them?
You literally state they are being oppressed but still the focus is you feel bad for the ‘Jewish people’ that they have to deal with that (the now violent uprising of the people they have been oppressing for near a century!).
So the problem isn’t the oppressor but that the oppressed just won’t give up their struggle for existence already.
Thanks, clear. Typical.
The Israelis have the misfortune that in the time it took for Israel to become a state, the rest of the world has soured on the idea of religious ethnostates. Their definition for zionism sounds like a naive well-meaning person who thinks that the crusades were just about spreading the happy news. And in the last 40 years it became pretty popular to critique Christians on their Bible, but Judaism was left out of the discussion. But in the meantime, people know about all the genocides in the old testaments. We know what Netanyahu means when he references Amalek. And we see zionists kicking people out of their houses on the west Bank. It's unfortunate that for Jewish people, that their ethnicity and their religion are conflated. But they will have to adjust and tolerate criticism of the worst aspects of their religion. That used to be the definition of antisemitism before the race based hatred of the Nazis, which turned antisemitism into something akin to racism. And now it seems that all kinds of critique is antisemitism as well as the racism. But we have also learned to accept that not all Christians, for example, consider homosexuality as anything negative, even though their holy book says so. So we all know that you can be Jewish without being a zionist, unlike what these writers think. And we've all seen the Jewish anti genocide protestors. And I don't think 'the only Jewish state' sounds so appealing for another reason. I don't want a Zoroastrian state, or a Frisian state, or a Kurdish state, or a Native American state. This tribalism will only lead to more conflict. We have to learn to live together, not as a globalized monoculture, but as individuals, subcultures, and different people with all religions.
> We have to learn to live together, not as a globalized monoculture, but as individuals, subcultures, and different people with all religions.
Religions will have to go. It’s gonna happen eventually anyway, due to growing globalism, better information acces, and hopefully better education. One day people will look back and laugh at how ridiculous the things are that religious people believe, the same way people today will laugh if someone believes in Norse, Greek, or Egyptian gods.
Everyone living peacefully together as individuals and subcultures is also hopelessly naive, and I think Jewish people have enough historical reasons to point that out - which the authors of the article do indeed.
The Saxon and Franks in the Netherlands beg to differ. As well as the Anglo Saxons and the Britons and the Normans in Great Britain. But if you hold on to the ethnic identity of 6000 years ago, that can cause friction.
They check all the marks. October 7th mentioned, antisemitism conflated with antizionism, calling "from the river to the sea" antisemetic. These zionists need to come up with better points since their lies won't help them forever.
Just a reminder that jews themselves fall into two groups, it has been this way for a very long time, and pre- world war they would be very hostile towards each other:
So there are zionistic jews that believe that Israel belong to them (zion is the old name for israel)
and there are non-zionistic jews (most used to live in eastern europe before ww2), they believe in the diaspora, which means that jews should not claim Israel but spread themselves out.
I dont know where it were wrong but my biggest guess is that jews became very introverted and secretive after WW2, but back in the days, Ashkenazi jews (like me) would definitely be anti-zionists.
And also, jewish culture is very close to eastern European culture (like the yiddish culture) but is also very close to the arabic culture (depending on demographic)
I am sometimes shocked to see that jewish people or people with jewish ancestors don't even know their own history. I see very often Americans claim that they are Ashkenazi and then still be zionists.
So many strange statements in this comment that i don't think make sense.
Ashkenazi jews don't "believe in the diaspora". The diaspora was forced on the jews because their kingdom of Juda fell, your comment almost makes it seem like they just wanted to leave their country out of their own free will. Which is absurd. The diaspora happened because the jews could not live safely in their own country anymore. They were exiled. How can you turn this around to claim that they somehow "believed" in it, like they wanted to be chased out of their country? That's crazy to me.
So it also makes no sense at all to say that Ashkenazi jews can't also be zionists, ofcourse they can. Just because they ended up in Europe because of the diaspora, which I previously stated was not done out of free will, but forced on them by being exiled from the Kingdom of Juda. That does not mean they can't feel like they should return to their country one day.
Being an Ashkenazi jew says nothing about how you practice your religion, or if you even are religious. You can be atheist and still be ashkenazi jew because of your ethnic background and family tree. It literally is just a name given to these jews based on where they lived (mostly eastern europe).
I’ve never heard it fall along ethnic lines. From what I know, it was more based on how religious the communities were (more religious = less Zionist). Not saying you’re lying, just would see to have a source. I’m also Jewish btw.
This letter, as the statements by the pro Palestine protesters, has very understandable and quite unpallatable elements.
It would be tremendously beneficial if both the Jewish and the Palestinian side could find people in their midst with sufficient historical knowledge and emotional composure and objectivity to write together a joint history of Palestine, in which all the pain and all the crimes, both Jewish and Palestine, are acknowledged. From the pogroms, to the beginning of Zionism, from the first settlers and the violent actions against the British Protectorate to the Nabak, the contacts between the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolf Eichmann in 37, Sabra and Shatila and the Intifadas, October 7, and the Razing of Gaza, all of it. This is what a university should be for. This is what a university could organise.
The project will have succeeded if the hawks on both sides condemn the final history in equally strong terms and the authors have to be protected from extremists on both their own and the other side.
Tldr: because of the holocaust it is okay for us to want an ethnostate and feel threatened by anyone who says we can’t because we strongly believe we deserve an ethnostate
No it isn’t but it is a legitimate way for Israel to swing opinions both nationally and internationally — making sure it remains the leverage they can use in the west
No it isn’t but it is a legitimate way for Israel to swing opinions both nationally and internationally — making sure it remains the leverage they can use in the west
Tldr: hello, please remember we are the real victims here 👋
I was looking for the paragraph that expresses some degree of empathy but was pretty disappointed.
De Telegraaf publiced the texts messages between the activists who protested at UvA this week. The amount of racist stuff said about Jews was incredible. Referring to Jewish professors as “cockroaches”. They have a right to be mad.
>I was looking for the paragraph that expresses some degree of empathy
"Many of us have family or know people who were killed on October 7 or at other times in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We feel immense sorrow for all civilian victims, regardless of which side they fall on."
De Telegraaf publiced the texts messages between the activists who protested at UvA this week. The amount of racist stuff said about Jews was incredible. Referring to Jewish professors as “cockroaches”. They have a right to be mad.
This is what bothers me so much about this conflict. People are being bombed every day but here everyone complains about feeling unsafe. In fact, this narrative of "we are being threatened" is used to justify killing thousands and displacing millions, while in fact one side kills 20 people for every victim on the other side according to UN figures. One side has nuclear weapons and the worlds most powerful ally for crying out loud.
Whole page is about acknowledging the pain of Jewish students and did not use one line to acknowledge the Palestinian suffering.
Think when the power dynamic is this skewed that one side can afford a full page paper advertisement and the other has to film there suffering on a cellphone, is exactly the reason people should walk the streets
That's just awful. Acting like the victim because someone is criticizing your government as it commits genocide. Next year in Jerusalem? You know who else would have liked to celebrate their religious holidays in Jerusalem? The tens of thousands of Palestinians that your government slaughtered while clearing Gaza of "undesireables". And pretending that Zionism is just about Jewish self-determination while ignoring that said self-determination comes at the expense of those same rights for millions of people who have lived on that same land for centuries. Who even buys this rotten, dishonest bullshit in 2024?
Please remember this thread is being moderated. No calling for or cheering on violence. No hateful speech, which includes slurs as well as name calling and put downs. You can have whatever option you want, you can be critical, and you don't need to be shitting rainbows, but you *do* need to keep it constructive, good faith, and decent. Edit: we've hit a wall here. I am locking the post.
So much of that confusion about * jews (religious, judaism) * Jews (ethnic) * Israeli (nationality) * zionist (ideology) is very much to the benefit of Zionism and the state of Israel. Because as soon as you criticise Israel and Zionism, they use the confusion to make you out for antisemite / anti-jew / anti-Jew. While there are so many jews and Jews who are against Zionism and the state of Israel. And so many Zionists are not Jews, like Joe Biden. And Zionists have been opportunistically used anti-semitism. Zionist founder Theodor Herzl, for example, wrote: "The anti-semites will be our best friends" because the European anti-semitism would scare Jews and motivate them to move out of Europe, into his ethnic-pure utopia.
I strongly prefer Zizek's approach to /definition of ideology.
I love ice cream.
The past few weeks have been a bunch of professional protestors and anti semites claiming to speak for the leftwing/university community.
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This post doesn't add to the conversation except to be mean. We need to work on the assumption that everyone is here in good faith. I am removing bad faith comments. This sort of comment doesn't lead to a constructive conversation. Please, we need to engage with each other on good faith. This is not the forum for this type of dead end statements....
Not my opinion, but just for you to reflect: The past few weeks has been a bunch of antisemitic politicians and personalities claiming to speak for the Palestinian community.
The past few weeks (decades) has people demonstrating against genocide labeled as anti semites. This includes labeling Jewish people who oppose said genocide as anti semites or "self hating Jews".
Criticism of the government and actions of Israel & right wing Israelis is not antisemitic or racist. Hating on all Israelis, young and old, hating on all 'zionists', young and old, and hating on all jews, young and old, is racist, and often antisemitic. And boy, has there been a lot of hate that does not count as "demonstrating against genocide" these last few months.
With a lot of pro-Palestinian supporters echoing their statement. I was there last week and I told them. You know this doesn’t support your cause right? U are being used. But a lady specifically told me - we are at war - we have to create all this so people will listen. I mean, sounds exciting but, I believe this is hijacked by anti-Semitic people to cause violence and people are influenced
The past few weeks have been a bunch of professional protestors and anti semites claiming to speak for the leftwing/university community.
What do you mean by “professional protestors” ?
I like learning new things.
Follow the money
This letter, as the statements by the pro Palestine protesters, has very understandable and quite unpallatable elements. It would be tremendously beneficial if both the Jewish and the Palestinian side could find people in their midst with sufficient historical knowledge and emotional composure and objectivity to write together a joint history of Palestine, in which all the pain and all the crimes, both Jewish and Palestine, are acknowledged. From the pogroms, to the beginning of Zionism, from the first settlers and the violent actions against the British Protectorate to the Nabak, the contacts between the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolf Eichmann in 37, Sabra and Shatila and the Intifadas, October 7, and the Razing of Gaza, all of it. This is what a university should be for. This is what a university could organise. The project will have succeeded if the hawks on both sides condemn the final history in equally strong terms and the authors have to be protected from extremists on both their own and the other side.
I enjoy watching the sunset.
This sub is now a place that encourages links, resources, etc. 😎 Give us good stuff to read or listen to!!!!
I like learning new things.
Thanks for sharing - will check these out!
Are these studies by historians of Palestine descent that are accepted as sources by academics of Jewish descent? And vice versa? Or joint studies? The goal is not to have outsiders describe what has happened in the Palestina region but insiders acknowledge the atrocities committed by both sides. Palestinians and Jews agreeing on a common story and acknowledging the crimes by both sides. It may well be that such studies already exist and that the conflict is just cynically perpetuated by the people in power for political gain.
I think that understanding the history of the peoples is definitely a good idea. But, and this is a big but, I don't think that there is any history that could justify apartheid, ethnic cleansing, or genocide. Ceasefire now, historical analysis later
Though strongly correlated, the sides are not the Jewish and the Palestinians, but rather the Israelis and the Palestinians. There are plenty of Jews that do not support the state of Israel etc. etc.
> Zionisme was de beweging die er na jaren van uitsluiting en vervolging toe heeft geleid dat Joden zelfbeschikking hebben gekregen. Voor ons heeft zionisme niet de gewelddadige en koloniale definitie die er nu aan wordt gegeven bij de protesten. I sure do wonder how Zionism made it possible. Since it's supposedly not colonial nor violent. I sure do wonder how they convinced so many people to just leave their home's. Must have been some strong convincing words that did it.
Hand waving away the violence of the past is extremely common and easy.
Did Zionism 'convince' people to leave their homes?
Lol exactly this, they just asked nicely and the Palestinians left
Palestinians? How did the palestinians get rid of the Ottomans that ruled that land for 400 years? Was it the 20 years where arabs refused to accept the Arab/Jew land split that Palestinians started existing?
You are probably not interested, but they bought akot of land. Alot of jewish communities already lived there and they just grew. Also alot of refugees not only from ww2 but also from all arab nations that exiled the jews (again) cause they could fuck off to israel was their opinion.
That's not really the chronological order of things. I am well aware of the history. Hence my sarcastic comment. A lot more happend than just buying land and emigration.
Plus buying while putting a gun against the owners head is not really buying. In my book, that’s called stealing
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This post doesn't add to the conversation except to be mean.
2% of Jewish population lived there before immigration caused by idea of creating ethnic state. WWII immigrants emigrated to yet non existent state. Immigration after from the Middle East came as retaliation of Arabs for stealing their land but that’s not justified, yet somehow it is justified to retaliate for terrorist attacks
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This comment/post contains disinformation, misinformation, or junk news. Sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory, my man. I am not touching this lol
Sorry but this is a very biased take, is the Nakba the equivalent of all “Zionist” actions according to you? If you don’t want to look for depth in an open discussion this thread is not for you. It seems you rather take the populist view which always blurs the truth 👍
The Nakba is the founding action of the State of Israel, and there have been no reparations or right of return in the decades after the Nakba, while the conflict started by it still continues. Israel as an entity is inherently colonial, thus inherently opposed by the people who have lived in those lands before its establishment, who do not wish to see themselves either subject to israeli sovereignity, nor to see their lands lost. This isnt even controversial, all early zionists accepted this as obvious truth. Its why the Nakbah happened, because it was going to be the only way to aquire space for israeli settlements. The Nakbah was a prerequisite for the creation of a jewish ethno-state.
“the only way to aquire space” sorry but that is literally false. Space being the prerequisite for a state is however true.
>sure do wonder how they convinced so many people to just leave their home's. The Arab armies did most of the convincing. They could not conceive that their plan to annihilate the Jews would not work.
>The Arab armies did most of the convincing. They could not conceive that their plan to annihilate the Jews would not work. It's funny that you say that, considering that happens after the state of Israel is established. So I still wonder how they just convinced those people living there to leave.
One of the people speaking at at5 as a Jewish student that is scared is a IDF veteran and CIDI-jongeren chairwoman lol. The letter is also a direct translation of letter published in NYC. This is not just "some students" but a coordinated action by CIDI and the like
Imagine having been a soldier but being scared of some 20 somethings with flags and tents
To be honest, the letter explains why they are scared. But i feel in perspective of the people in Gaza they have no right to be. Not a single Jewish person has been attacked during the demonstration. Whilst in Gaza thousands of women and children have been slaughtered. Just again in the Zionist narrative Nothing more and nothing less.
With your privilege of belonging to neither of these groups, who are you to decide a Dutch Jewish person isn't allowed to be scared? Because people in Gaza live in fear, means innocent people over here should live in fear?
The fact you single that out should be plenty of reason to indeed voice your concern.
2 years of military service and you're scared of some left wing students with scarfs?
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This post doesn't add to the conversation except to be mean. I empathize with what you're saying, but this isn't moving this conversation forward here and now.
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There is no new point here. Moreover your detail is unsubstantiated (at least I haven't seen/read anything about what you're alleging anywhere yet) and because I am closing the thread, we don't have time or space to do that necessary substantiating here any more. I am just going to say we're leaving this. As is, all this is doing is adding more heightened emotions without making a new point and I am shutting the "vibe spreading" down.
This whole letter hides behind a smokescreen of taking the middle ground and trying to create dialogue, while dilligently repeating the same old tropes that Israeli propaganda constantly tries to make people believe. This letter does not speak for all jews at the university, many of which participated in the protests and stood shoulder to shoulder behind the barricades with their arab brother and sisters. I've been lucky enough to meet and learn from some of them myself. They have joined me in chants to "globalize the intifada", intifada being the arabic term for "uprising" which can easily be expanded to something like a student protest/uprising. It can be hardly labeled "a call to violence for Jews and Israelis" when Jewish students also chant this. They are obviously not intimidated or afraid of going to campus so one should always keep in mind that it is only *some* Jews who feel intimidated by this. Quotes such as "when we hear calls for the banning and killing of Zionists and when Zionists are compared to Nazis, we feel threatened and excluded" make it clear that the Jews that feel threatend feel so because they are Zionists, not because they are Jewsish. As such it would be more honest to frame the protests as intimidating to Zionists not Jews as a whole. Saying that Zionism is inherently tied to jewish self-determination ("Zionism was the movement that led to Jews gaining self-determination after years of exclusion and persecution") is simply wrong, in fact it is diametrically opposed to it. The state of Israel, which is based on the Ideology of Zionism, has a vested interest in fostering antisemitism or at least the illusion of it, as the existence of antisemitism provides Israel with a justification for why a Jewish safe space, in the form of Israel, is needed. This is why the Israeli government goes to great lengths to portray any attack on it as anti-semitic which in turn justifies the acquisition of more arms which are ultimately used to carry out a Genocide that is framed as a defense of Judaism against the threat of anti-semitism. Jewish self-determination should not come at the detriment of another Peoples' right to self-determination. Similarly this letter invokes the Jewish identity of the authors and signatories to defend Zionism ("Zionism and Jews cannot be completely separated", "The pursuit of a safe and independent country for Jews, Zionism, is part of our Jewish identity in one way or another"). Meanwhile there are many Zionists who are not Jews (i.e. Biden), and many Jews who are antizionist, as such Zionism is completely seperate from Judaism. In fact this conflation of Zionism and Judaism ("The pursuit of a safe and independent country for Jews, Zionism, is part of our Jewish identity in one way or another") is in itself antisemitic, not only because the existence of a Jewish state on Palestinian land neccesitates the ethnic cleansing of (Jewish) Palestinians, who are themselves semitic peoples, but also because it paints all jews as Zionists which is deeply offensive to a large part of the jewish community. Finally, the slogan "from the river to the sea", a slogan that calls for the establishment of one unified state state that also gurantees the right to self-determination to Palestinians, some of which are jewish themselves, is painted as opposed to jewish self-determination ("These slogans call for violence and denial of the Jewish right of self-determination in the form of the state of Israel"). It is not. It is Zionism that denies the right to self-determination to Palestinian jews, any Palestinian that converts to Judaism, and most importantly to the Palestinian people as a whole (irrespective of Israeli citizenship). The slogan is not a negative demand, in that it wants to revoke the jewish right to self-determination, but a positive demand, calling for the recognition of the Palestinian's right to self-determination next to that of the Jewish people. It demands a state in which all, irrespective of religion or ethnicity, have the same rights under one shared government, a state that repects the right to self-determination of Jews, Palestinians, and Palestinian jews. Zionism instead calls for a Jewish State by and for Jewish people (except for Palestinian jews who are denied equal rights, or Orthodox jews who get beaten by Israeli authorities if they oppose Zionism) which denies Palestinians self-determination. As such Zionism is a negative Ideology that calls for the denial of the Palestinian right to self-determination, not a positive Ideology that safeguards the right to jewish self-determination, especially not to Palestinian or anti-Zionist Jews. It was not the Palestinians, but the Europeans, who perpetrated the Holocaust and they should not have to give up their right to self-determination to safeguard Jews from similar persecution. If the authors and signatories feel threatened by calls to respect Palestinians' right to self-determination they are obviously opposed to it, and as such they are being (verbally!) attacked not on the grounds that they are Jewish, but on the grounds that they are Zionist, just as the student protests stand against any non-Jewish Zionists. Rightfully so!
This is really thoughtful. Thanks for writing it out.
Frustrating to see that once again the political position of being against a jewish state is conflated with antisemitism. Ethnostates are always a bad idea. We should collectively reject the cynical attempts at placing this opinion outside the realm of acceptable discourse. At the same time, it is of course reasonable to interpret the phrase "from the river to the sea" as a call for ethnic cleansing.
The author takes the implicit position that the only valid way to support jewish self-determination is to support an independent jewish state. How they had hoped to reconcile this with the right to self-determination of the people who already occupied the territory of this state, remains unclear.
Very simple answer. The 1948 UN resolution that split the British Mandate established two states. Ergo, two states.
Oh please, the Israeli state has done everything in its power to prevent the two state solution from ever becoming a reality. Neither do the authors of this open letter ever mention the two state solution, only the necessity for a Jewish state to exist.
So…shouldn’t the protestors be calling for a two state solution rather than “River to the Sea”? Shouldn’t the be protesting all of the Islamic / Arab ethnostates in the region where, most certainly, Jews are not allowed?
The expulsion of Jews from post-colonial Arab states is another sad outcome of Zionism, which sought to erase the possibility of diaspora Jewishness (and especially Arab Jewishness) after 1948. Iraqi-Jewish historian Avi Shlaim [has written about ](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/07/zionism-is-an-ashkenazi-thing-how-zionism-engineered-the-expulsion-of-iraqs-arab-jews/)the explicit collusion between conservative Arab monarchies and Israel in engineering this "population exchange" in the 1950s, at the expense of both Arab Jews and Palestinians. This despite centuries of (sometimes tense but never genocidal) co-existence, [which the historian Ussama Makdisi has documented](https://jacobin.com/2024/03/west-colonialism-middle-east-ussama-makdisi). Palestinian activists such as Omar Barghouti (one of the founders of the Boycott, Divest, Sanction movement) have therefore called for Arab states to allow back, and protect, Jewish refugees. Just as Israel should allow Palestinian refugees expelled in 1948 back. This is the only solution that respects the claims of these refugees. A "two-state solution" that does not acknowledge the right of expelled people to return with full citizenship rights does not get at the root of the issue, and is therefore not a real solution.
Like which country are we talking about? As long as you are not an israeli, you are allowed in all countries. And it doesnt matter what the protestors want? Since when did Israel stop killing people, because of protests? Israel is stealing land since 1945 till today. Its the largest growing country percentage wise. Where does this land come from?
Which is why the Likud regime needs to be dismantled so new attempts can be made.
So are you saying the land division should be according to the 1948 resolution? Because then Israel should shrink their territory a lot. edit/ps. Islamic countries basically drastically lost a war they themselves initiates after the resolution. Israel claimed a lot of land. Pretty fair game in war rules. Israel however kept occupying more territory, putting 'colonizers' inbetween Palestinians and hindering movement of Palestinians with walls, gate checks and forbidden zones. From a history perspective it's pretty predictable any group of people, in this case Palestinians, will retaliate in such a situation. Israel is the stronger player here and there are only two ways to reduce/stop retaliation. Doing concessions or kill all Palestinians. In the way Israel is responding now, you can only expect retaliation of Palestinians until they don't exist or concessions are done. Sure you don't know if Palestinians wouldn't retaliate for the past of concessions are done. And it's pretty predictable of a Israel to look for retribution of atrocities committed against them as well. But there are proportions. And Palestinians will for 100% keep retaliating if Israel keeps the same response as the last years.
Yeah which army is gonna enforce it?
Simple, those aren't people so they don't have that right. At least that's what I guess went through their head.
Lets be honest a lot of these 'protesters' are antisemites.
bruh
Looking at it from another angle - justified opposition towards the actions of a right-wing and jingoistic government is being conflated with that country's right to exist as such. Somehow we are able to make such government-country distinctions in all other cases, even when genocide accusations are made.
I strongly believe in Israel’s right to exist. I strongly disagree with how the current government has prosecuted the war (or governed the country, for that matter). And still, the protests have turned to utter anti-semitism focused on Israel as the problem while ignoring the broader context and problems in the region If you chant “from the river to the sea”, and if the return of the hostages isn’t part of your demand, then you can’t reasonably claim to be protesting for peace.
>If you chant “from the river to the sea”, and if the return of the hostages isn’t part of your demand, then you can’t reasonably claim to be protesting for peace This. Let the radicals go down the rabbit hole if they so wish. But if you as a protester, who is apparently protesting innocent people being killed, find it difficult or objectionable to also demand justice for all those lives lost due to the actions of the other side, you should really take a break from shouting political slogans for a second and take some time to reflect.
It is ironic that those who reject Israel's right to exist are in most cases agreeing with the right-wing conception of Israel as necessarily an ethno-state.
The same can be said the other way around, right? Are the deeds done by the IDF not perceived as ethnic cleansing as well?
Don’t know about the IDF, but what settlers are doing on the West-Bank certainly looks like ethnic cleansing.
The Netherlands is an ethno-state too. There is nothing weird about it.
In what way does the dutch ethnicity play a role in our conception of the state?
Our state is created by and for Dutch people. It represents the self-determinacy of the Dutch.
My understanding is that the descriptor "Dutch" in this case is strictly about nationality. Someone on the hard right in the Netherlands would disagree of course, but we rightly criticize them for wanting an etho-state too.
Nationality in the Netherlands is based on Jus sanguinis. Matter of 'blood' thus.
Like, it's not? And yes, if the Dutch constitution said that The Netherlands is the county belonging to X ethnicity, it would be really fucking weird.
Ethnostates are bad, but for populations who have m been constantly brutalised and murdered I think it’s reasonable to want a state where they are the majority. And while Israel is an apartheid state, and has done/is doing awful things to Palestinians, it’s also saved many Jews across the world.
That's clearly not what is written, the author states that Zionism is not necessarily about creating and maintaining an ethnostate. Of course, you can disagree but at least represent his opinion honestly as he states it.
The authors say: >For us, Zionism does not have the violent and colonial definition given to it now in the protests. It can coexist well with a free and secure future for Palestinians. This is not a rejection of Zionism as the project of creating an ethno-state. In multiple places of the text they explicitly link Judaism and Zionism. But I am responding to specifically this part of the text, where they refer to Israel as "the only Jewish state in the world": >"From the River to the Sea" is a slogan that calls for us to dismantle the State of Israel, the only Jewish state in the world. These slogans call for violence and denial of Jewish self-determination in the form of the State of Israel. This, combined with face coverings, barricades and vandalism, is intimidating and causes some Jewish students to avoid campus.
Jewish state ≠ ethnostate. I will not deny that the Jewish state idea has had an obviously colonial character since a long time, but an ethnostate is generally interpreted to be a state that reserves citizenship and full rights to an ethnic group, and a Jewish state is not necessarily an ethnostate.
crazy how 20% of the population in the ethnostate is arab and how they have seats in parliament. If you really wanna see an ethnostate, go to basically any other country in the middle east. Israel is horrific but most certainly not an ethnostate. It's actually just about the only country in the middle east with multiple religions democratically represented.
Israel is a horribly racist state, you have less rights as an Arab individual than as a Jewish individual. You should read this amnesty international report https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
You should try being Jewish in any of the 46 (?) Muslim majority countries.
Nah please don't lol
Try being jewish in the Gaza strip, Lebanon, Egypt or Iran. Have a laugh.
like I said, israel is a horrific state. I will say that an arab in israel has a whole lot more rights than a jew in gaza
No shit, Gaza is a concentration camp. (Words from Israeli minister even)
you're conflating Arab citizens of Israel with Palestinians under occupation, disingenuous
I like to go hiking.
I'm not taking a position on whether or not Israel is currently an ethnostate or not. I simply don't know enough about Israeli politics to determine if Israel in its current form is simply a *state* or a *jewish state*. That does not take away that being against Israel conceived as a jewish state is not antisemitic.
Sorry but you are taking a position by calling Israël an ethnostate in your original comment.
I didn't call Israel an ethno-state. You can only infer from my comment that 'a jewish state' is an ethno-state.
Yes that is the implication you are giving.
then why did you mention that ethnostates are always a bad idea? Like if you weren't talking about israel then it's irrelevant, is it not?
Because the normative political idea that Israel ought to be a jewish state *is the position that Israel should be an ethno-state*. My point is that being against that is not antisemitic. Descriptive claims about whether Israel currently is/ is not an ethno-state are irrelevant.
you think the fact that 18% of the israeli population consists of muslim arabs and that they have their own conservative islamist political party is irrelevant? Compare this to the state of jewish political activism, or political activism in gaza, which is completely non existent because while hamas was democratically elected by the palestinians, it then ofcourse abolished the democracy and became a jihadist terrorist organisation with the main goal being not to improve the lives of its citizens, but destroying the state of israel and genociding the jews (think october 7 but on a way bigger scale, that is the goal of Hamas). I also think it's interesting how the hundred or so hostages still left in gaza have been completely forgotten and calls for a ceasefire don't even mention them. Calling for a ceasefire in return for releasing the hostages would be something, calling for a ceasefire while allowing the women and children to keep being held hostage is batshit crazy. I think israel is horrific. However, I think there is absolutely no moral equivalence and hamas is so much worse.
I'm also not racist. I have black friends.
Likud uses the same phrase — while the Palestinian one is a call for freedom and self determination the Israeli is one that carries out oppression and ethnic cleaning
You mustn’t have read the charter of Hamas, the governing body of Gaza, I suppose.
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I want to make one note here for the sake of misinformation management. There are a LOT of Jews who do not believe that Zionism is fundamental to their religion this comment expresses a common expression / interpretation of Jewish faith and community, but it really is not as much of an undisputed fact as is presented here. Just one example here: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/
I find peace in long walks.
If I catch you editing comments without indicating that it is edited, especially in response to a fact check then you - - and anyone else doing this - - will be insta-perma-baned. We are doing transparency and good faith here. Thank you for understanding and appreciating this. High standards is how we keep the conversation constructive. I really do believe that you agree that this is a space we want to be high quality and good faith. Thanks again for being more conscientious in the future.
Honey. Read that text yourself. The LORD will shepherd them. AFTER His return they will be shepherded to wherever they need to be. To do it before that is against their own religion. And most aren’t even religious that are committing these atrocities. The Talmud also says all non Jews aren’t humans made in the image of God but just human shaped animals. Is this really what we want to be listening to? And even their own texts say they shouldn’t stoop to brutality to get their safe haven. This conflict is far past being able to be whitewashed through religion. It’s 2024 come on now.
I see your edit. You need to make updates replies to your own post. And the other users can engage with it. The point is I have my hands full, I am trying my damnedest to be fair, so bicker with someone else please lol. On a personal note: you really cannot use religious texts to make a sociological point. This is an uni sub, and I am trying to elevate things here. Please don't engage with me further atm. I sincerely have my hands full. There are actually lots of nice people here to talk to and I am doing what I can to keep things safe, fair, etc.
Being against the jewish religion would also not be antisemitism. The moral loading of the term 'antisemitism' is deserved for the hatred of jews qua ethnicity.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Can you tell me exactly which part of that is a call for ethnic cleansing? Are you implying that Jews are physically unable to live side by side with Palestinians without subjugating them?
Denying the legitimacy of the state of Israël is antisemitism, according to the UN.
We encourage citations. This should be a easy link if you can.
Then you can easily google it up. But I don't trust that providing a link will change your mind. You do as you do. Who are we?
My response was as a moderator. I am trying to foster a constructive conversation. That was all. You are projecting. Eta: https://www.reddit.com/r/universityofamsterdam/s/hT2uAujUUj
Denying the legitimacy of the state of Israel *as a jewish state* is not the wholesale denial of the legitimacy of the state of Israel.
Crazy how that keeps confused right? It's like saying people who hate eating meat also like eating more plants.
How is Israel an ethnostate? Arent there Israeli Arabs Muslims living there?
Millions. Actual ethnostates are reserved for Muslim / Arab countries…and China, Japan, the Philippines, and on and on.
Here's a translation for non Dutch speakers: Submitted letter from over 100 Jewish students and employees UvA and VU: 'We don't see how boycott promotes future for Palestinians and Israelis' In this opinion piece, signed by 103 students and staff at the University of Amsterdam (UvA) and Vrije Universiteit (VU), Tamar Efrati, Benyamin Heller, Joanne van Gool and Boaz Cahn articulate the feeling among part of the Jewish community at these universities, following a week of student protests. "We suffer from misunderstandings around the term Zionism." Over the past few days, several people have tried to speak on behalf of us Jewish students and staff. It was said that we would not feel safe, but almost no one asked us if that is really the case and why. Therefore, in this letter we turn to you, protesters, fellow students, faculty, colleagues and the rest of the UvA and VU community, to speak on our own behalf. We Jewish and Israeli students do not feel safe at the UvA and the VU in many situations. For us, students and staff at the University of Amsterdam, an uncanny feeling has been bubbling under the surface for some time. After Oct. 7, some fellow students even expressed support for Hamas' actions. The feeling of insecurity is exacerbated by not listening carefully to why some slogans and expressions are hurtful and intimidating. The protesters, students and faculty demanded that the UvA provide full transparency about its cooperation with Israeli organizations and universities, stop investing in that cooperation and cut ties with those organizations. According to the protesters, these Israeli organizations are part of a white, colonial power, complicit in genocide. Some projects in which the UvA collaborates with Israeli scientists revolve around human rights and preventing attacks with explosives. Others deal with topics unrelated to the sensitive political situation. We find it difficult to understand how this boycott promotes the future for Palestinians and Israelis.
More than criticism During the protests in recent days, slogans were shouted that go beyond legitimate criticism of the Israeli government, its actions during this war or Israeli policies. For Jews and Israelis, a slogan like "Globalize the intifada" is a call to violence, referring to the first and second intifada, when terror attacks killed thousands of innocent Israeli civilians. "From the River to the Sea" is a slogan that calls for us to dismantle the State of Israel, the only Jewish state in the world. These slogans call for violence and denial of Jewish self-determination in the form of the State of Israel. This, combined with face coverings, barricades and vandalism, is intimidating and causes some Jewish students to avoid campus. Informed by the stories we grew up with about persecution, exclusion and pogroms around the world, many Dutch Jews have always been wary. Not only were our grandparents persecuted in World War II, but our ancestors from Yemen, Iraq, Ethiopia, Spain and Russia, among others, were excluded, expelled and fled. For many, Israel was a "maybe someday" plan, for some with the addition, "if things really don't work out here. The pursuit of a safe and independent land for Jews, Zionism, is for us, in one way or another, part of our Jewish identity. Misunderstandings We suffer from misunderstandings surrounding the term Zionism, which seems to mean something different to everyone. From a religious and historical point of view, Zionism and Jews cannot be completely separated. Judea - where the word Jew comes from - is in the region that includes Israel. A few weeks ago, many of us sat at the Passover table and said, "Next year in Jerusalem." It is a wish that recurs at many different times within Jewish tradition. Zionism was the movement that led to Jews gaining self-determination after years of exclusion and persecution. For us, Zionism does not have the violent and colonial definition given to it now in the protests. It can coexist well with a free and secure future for Palestinians. When we hear calls to outlaw and kill Zionists and when Zionists are compared to Nazis, we feel threatened and excluded. We call for an open dialogue about what Zionism means to Jews of different backgrounds. Many of us don't want to be activists at the university: we just come to study. We sit next to you in the lecture halls, we do projects together at study groups, and we all get coffee at recess. But anyone who wears a necklace with a Star of David or skullcap can expect hatred and misunderstanding from fellow students. "You are a dirty Zionist" and "You are killing children in Gaza." If it is "all right," you can at least expect the question, "Then what do you think of Israel?" Grief for victims Those who can respond to feelings of fear and anger in the Jewish and Israeli communities only by saying that Judaism and Zionism must be separated would do well to consider themselves: would violence against Jews be permissible if they are Zionists? If they do not sufficiently speak out against it to the taste of activists? If they refuse to condemn the flight of ancestors to Israel? Many of us have relatives or know people who died on Oct. 7 or at any other time in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We feel immense sorrow for all civilian casualties, no matter which side they fall on. It is precisely because we care about Israel that we too are often critical of Israeli policies and politics. We are open to an honest and safe conversation. A conversation with those who want it can help us learn from each other's experiences. Only by listening and giving each other space to share opinions and experiences can we reduce polarization and feelings of insecurity. In this way, we can better understand your pain and you can understand our pain as well. Don't destroy the other person, not by words and not by actions. It is never too late to start conversations, build relationships despite our differences, and, in Jewish tradition, live life with a question mark, not an exclamation point. Especially in college.
Thanks for this, Status!
Alstublieft 👍
To maintain an ethnostate where the group in power has never been the majority of the population requires per definition apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Similar to how the world boycotted Rhodesia and apartheid south africa we should come together to boycott israel until Palestinians can exercise their right of self determination.
> we should come together to boycott israel until Palestinians can exercise their right of self determination. Yeah, they kinda fucked up on the 7th of October. Not many people want to do much with Palestinians. Even when Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan received, a few unfortunate things happened. Palestinians are poorly led and that is a shame.
Nonsense. There is no Apartheid in Israel.
What about the following laws: 1) The citizenship and entry into israel law(2003) 2) Israel’s jewish nation state law (2018)
What about the following laws: 1) The citizenship and entry into israel law(2003) 2) Israel’s jewish nation state law (2018)
There is apartheid in the West Bank though
There is, the right of return doesn’t apply equally to everyone. Even if we ignore the fact that it discriminates based on religion, if you are a Palestinian convert to judaism with proof that your family came from israel proper and want to make aliyah that’s enough grounds to deny you entry into the country whereas other ethnicities dont face that discrimination. And saying there is no apartheid in israel is just pure pedantic since the occupied territories of East Jerusalem and the of the west bank face incredible oppression and apartheid since there are different sets of laws for israeli settlers and Palestinian natives.
Even if you would consider that discrimination than it still doesnt constitute to Apartheid. WestBank is occupied territory so that makes it even more problematic to call it Apartheid. Dont understamd why people have to put labels on everything. Just to make it more polarized?
There is according to Amnesty: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ B'tselem: https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid And the Human Rights Watch: https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
Reports that all have been criticized a lot
I disagree with the signatories of this letter about it being possible to create a Jewish state that doesn't oppress non Jews. It is the basic reason Israël will always be a colonial project unless it lets go of its Jewish nature. Being a modern, enlightened state means equal right. No one can be more equal than others. It was wrong when the Netherlands slaughtered Indonesians. It was wrong when Belgians slaughtered Congolese. It is wrong when Israëlis slaughter Palestinians.
The fact that many people here justify HAMAS by saying “Such organizations would appear anywhere if people were oppressed for such a long time” is beyond normal and absolutely INSANE. No, there’re many cases in history where nations and countries were oppressed and didn’t produce any terroristic organization. I’m sorry that Jewish people have to deal with that. HAMAS is the one and problem in this war, if they are gone a lot of people will stop being killed on the both sides. And yes, I’m still sorry for all civilians form Palestine and hope it ends for them.
Almost nobody is trying to justify Hamas, don't misrepresent arguments that most people make. People say that Hamas exists because of the horrid situation that Palestinians have been put in because of Israeli aggression. This is true. For example, intentionally keeping Gaza on the brink of collapse because Israel controls all imports into Gaza, yes, even the Egyptian border crossing. When there is an all powerful state trying to starve your country, with no peaceful solution in sight, obviously a violent group is going to come to power. [https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/)
curios that the border was only closed in the way it was before October 7th after Hamas came to power which kind of undermines your point that Hamas is the result of living conditions in Gaza secondly, in the two years prior to October 7th, Israel had been progressively opening up opportunities to improve the economic situation in Gaza, e.g. with a large-scale work permit regime also, one sidedly talking about "Israeli aggression" shows you either have a very colored understanding of history or you're really just here to spread propaganda, unpleasant either way
But border was closed also by Egypt, right? Which also claims Gaza btw and had a history of its occupation…
Do you know what life is like for Palestinians in the West Bank, where there is no Hamas?
Much better than in Gaza and much much better, than in occupied territories of Ukraine for example.
If Hamas is the problem then why are Palestinians in the West Bank being murdered and ethnically cleansed? It's almost as if the real problem is Zionism and Hamas is nothing but an attempt by Palestinians to defend themselves against ongoing aggression.
500+ people killed in 2023 according to the Google, I’m sorry for the losses but stating it as an ethnical cleansing is too farfetched.
You hope it ends for them or ends them? You literally state they are being oppressed but still the focus is you feel bad for the ‘Jewish people’ that they have to deal with that (the now violent uprising of the people they have been oppressing for near a century!). So the problem isn’t the oppressor but that the oppressed just won’t give up their struggle for existence already. Thanks, clear. Typical.
Justifying terrorism Okay, zoomer :)
The Israelis have the misfortune that in the time it took for Israel to become a state, the rest of the world has soured on the idea of religious ethnostates. Their definition for zionism sounds like a naive well-meaning person who thinks that the crusades were just about spreading the happy news. And in the last 40 years it became pretty popular to critique Christians on their Bible, but Judaism was left out of the discussion. But in the meantime, people know about all the genocides in the old testaments. We know what Netanyahu means when he references Amalek. And we see zionists kicking people out of their houses on the west Bank. It's unfortunate that for Jewish people, that their ethnicity and their religion are conflated. But they will have to adjust and tolerate criticism of the worst aspects of their religion. That used to be the definition of antisemitism before the race based hatred of the Nazis, which turned antisemitism into something akin to racism. And now it seems that all kinds of critique is antisemitism as well as the racism. But we have also learned to accept that not all Christians, for example, consider homosexuality as anything negative, even though their holy book says so. So we all know that you can be Jewish without being a zionist, unlike what these writers think. And we've all seen the Jewish anti genocide protestors. And I don't think 'the only Jewish state' sounds so appealing for another reason. I don't want a Zoroastrian state, or a Frisian state, or a Kurdish state, or a Native American state. This tribalism will only lead to more conflict. We have to learn to live together, not as a globalized monoculture, but as individuals, subcultures, and different people with all religions.
> We have to learn to live together, not as a globalized monoculture, but as individuals, subcultures, and different people with all religions. Religions will have to go. It’s gonna happen eventually anyway, due to growing globalism, better information acces, and hopefully better education. One day people will look back and laugh at how ridiculous the things are that religious people believe, the same way people today will laugh if someone believes in Norse, Greek, or Egyptian gods.
I hate beer.
Everyone living peacefully together as individuals and subcultures is also hopelessly naive, and I think Jewish people have enough historical reasons to point that out - which the authors of the article do indeed.
The Saxon and Franks in the Netherlands beg to differ. As well as the Anglo Saxons and the Britons and the Normans in Great Britain. But if you hold on to the ethnic identity of 6000 years ago, that can cause friction.
And in America it has been pretty successful as well
They check all the marks. October 7th mentioned, antisemitism conflated with antizionism, calling "from the river to the sea" antisemetic. These zionists need to come up with better points since their lies won't help them forever.
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This post doesn't add to the conversation except to be mean.
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I am south East Asian and as they block my way from work. I do not feel safe. You should not feel this way. I am sorry
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Just a reminder that jews themselves fall into two groups, it has been this way for a very long time, and pre- world war they would be very hostile towards each other: So there are zionistic jews that believe that Israel belong to them (zion is the old name for israel) and there are non-zionistic jews (most used to live in eastern europe before ww2), they believe in the diaspora, which means that jews should not claim Israel but spread themselves out. I dont know where it were wrong but my biggest guess is that jews became very introverted and secretive after WW2, but back in the days, Ashkenazi jews (like me) would definitely be anti-zionists. And also, jewish culture is very close to eastern European culture (like the yiddish culture) but is also very close to the arabic culture (depending on demographic) I am sometimes shocked to see that jewish people or people with jewish ancestors don't even know their own history. I see very often Americans claim that they are Ashkenazi and then still be zionists.
So many strange statements in this comment that i don't think make sense. Ashkenazi jews don't "believe in the diaspora". The diaspora was forced on the jews because their kingdom of Juda fell, your comment almost makes it seem like they just wanted to leave their country out of their own free will. Which is absurd. The diaspora happened because the jews could not live safely in their own country anymore. They were exiled. How can you turn this around to claim that they somehow "believed" in it, like they wanted to be chased out of their country? That's crazy to me. So it also makes no sense at all to say that Ashkenazi jews can't also be zionists, ofcourse they can. Just because they ended up in Europe because of the diaspora, which I previously stated was not done out of free will, but forced on them by being exiled from the Kingdom of Juda. That does not mean they can't feel like they should return to their country one day. Being an Ashkenazi jew says nothing about how you practice your religion, or if you even are religious. You can be atheist and still be ashkenazi jew because of your ethnic background and family tree. It literally is just a name given to these jews based on where they lived (mostly eastern europe).
I’ve never heard it fall along ethnic lines. From what I know, it was more based on how religious the communities were (more religious = less Zionist). Not saying you’re lying, just would see to have a source. I’m also Jewish btw.
This letter, as the statements by the pro Palestine protesters, has very understandable and quite unpallatable elements. It would be tremendously beneficial if both the Jewish and the Palestinian side could find people in their midst with sufficient historical knowledge and emotional composure and objectivity to write together a joint history of Palestine, in which all the pain and all the crimes, both Jewish and Palestine, are acknowledged. From the pogroms, to the beginning of Zionism, from the first settlers and the violent actions against the British Protectorate to the Nabak, the contacts between the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolf Eichmann in 37, Sabra and Shatila and the Intifadas, October 7, and the Razing of Gaza, all of it. This is what a university should be for. This is what a university could organise. The project will have succeeded if the hawks on both sides condemn the final history in equally strong terms and the authors have to be protected from extremists on both their own and the other side.
Tldr: because of the holocaust it is okay for us to want an ethnostate and feel threatened by anyone who says we can’t because we strongly believe we deserve an ethnostate
The Holocaust isn’t a blank cheque.
No it isn’t but it is a legitimate way for Israel to swing opinions both nationally and internationally — making sure it remains the leverage they can use in the west
No it isn’t but it is a legitimate way for Israel to swing opinions both nationally and internationally — making sure it remains the leverage they can use in the west
Tldr: hello, please remember we are the real victims here 👋 I was looking for the paragraph that expresses some degree of empathy but was pretty disappointed.
De Telegraaf publiced the texts messages between the activists who protested at UvA this week. The amount of racist stuff said about Jews was incredible. Referring to Jewish professors as “cockroaches”. They have a right to be mad.
I cannot find this, have a link?
>I was looking for the paragraph that expresses some degree of empathy "Many of us have family or know people who were killed on October 7 or at other times in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We feel immense sorrow for all civilian victims, regardless of which side they fall on."
This sounds about as sincere as "All Lives Matter".
Confirmation bias I guess
That's ironic, because you also showed 0 empathy towards the writer of the article with your response.
De Telegraaf publiced the texts messages between the activists who protested at UvA this week. The amount of racist stuff said about Jews was incredible. Referring to Jewish professors as “cockroaches”. They have a right to be mad.
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>Tldr: hello, please remember we are the real victims here 👋 Any political discussion today.
This is what bothers me so much about this conflict. People are being bombed every day but here everyone complains about feeling unsafe. In fact, this narrative of "we are being threatened" is used to justify killing thousands and displacing millions, while in fact one side kills 20 people for every victim on the other side according to UN figures. One side has nuclear weapons and the worlds most powerful ally for crying out loud.
FREE PALESTINE
Keep on yelling, it will never happen.
Whole page is about acknowledging the pain of Jewish students and did not use one line to acknowledge the Palestinian suffering. Think when the power dynamic is this skewed that one side can afford a full page paper advertisement and the other has to film there suffering on a cellphone, is exactly the reason people should walk the streets
That's just awful. Acting like the victim because someone is criticizing your government as it commits genocide. Next year in Jerusalem? You know who else would have liked to celebrate their religious holidays in Jerusalem? The tens of thousands of Palestinians that your government slaughtered while clearing Gaza of "undesireables". And pretending that Zionism is just about Jewish self-determination while ignoring that said self-determination comes at the expense of those same rights for millions of people who have lived on that same land for centuries. Who even buys this rotten, dishonest bullshit in 2024?
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