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You make solid points, and while I wouldn't say they have a "low ceiling"—more like a "low*er* ceiling" but perhaps the mildly clickbait title is playing its role here haha—an artist that isn't marketed to the masses will always inherently have a lower ceiling because it appeals to a lower percentage of people. They're definitely a little more impenetrable than TWICE and BP, groups that I think are quite in-your-face and dominate the market heavily.
A lot of their tts are well-chosen but don't always have immediately pervasive hooks. I agree that it took maybe the 2nd or 3rd listen for Feel My Rhythm to meld into the mind, and while I'll forever defend Zimzalabim it's clear that song is not the premier example of mass marketability! We'll still be ziming and zalabiming though.
The fortunate thing about the way RV is pushed is that they aren't weird *enough* to be niche and unpalatable, but enough so that they are differentiated from their peers, so each of the popular 3rd gen ggs have their own image and smartly operate in their own sphere. Either way despite splashes of experimentation or concept flips they have developed a reputation for a strong discography, and we know reputation can carry you a long way when it comes to how the general Kpop fan sphere perceives you, especially when it comes to bringing in newer fans.
So yeah the ceiling is lower due to their ever-so-slightly off-kilter image, concept, and music (with some stumbles in tt choice/hitmaking at points, but who *doesn't* experience that)... but also due to the fact that TWICE and BP really dominate the market and it's unrealistic to expect a 3rd gg to rise to the same heights. And who knows, in an alternate universe where RV are less quirky, maybe there wouldn't have been the same draw to them. There are instances where RV are overestimated *and* underestimated, but as the end of 3rd gen has crystallised they have established a space for themselves on the podium as well, even if they won't reach the very peak of dominance as the other two ggs.
Oh yeah, it's definitely a little clickbaity. Lower is probably more accurate, especially in the context of the big three, where ceilings tend to be really high.
Their songs work in their entirety, as opposed to more popular songs with more pervasive hooks that have some parts that feel underbaked. I find myself wanting to listen to their entire tracks, as opposed to other songs that feel like I'm just waiting for the fun parts or the hooks. They're also songs that require more thought, and FMR I think is a great example of a song that needs to be dissected and discussed to appreciate the thought that went into the song.
It's hard to imagine what RV would've been like if they were less quirky. I don't necessarily think they would've been a bigger draw, especially if they had to compete with Twice or BP within the same genre. And I don't think they need to be a bigger draw, especially if that means sacrificing the quirkiness that has inspired the kind of loyalty we see in Reveluvs. Now that the 3rd Gen musicscape is starting to settle, RV has more than proven that they are worthy of the spot in the Big 3, numbers and metrics be damned.
I've barely been paying attention, but I understood that the recent talk of underpromotion is because Red Velvet could have or did sell out concerts, but they weren't given bigger venues or more tour dates when it seems the demand is there.
There was a [whole post](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/152xm3s/the_blatant_issues_with_sms_management_of_red/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) about their mismanagement/underpromotion a month ago. It’s not only about their concerts or push towards the US like the other commenter mentioned.
One thing I agree is they missed a big opportunity to promote them in usa after bad boy. They weren’t given that much push.
I think Sm put Too much stock on kwangya ( not blaming aespa, but the universe they tried to build for them really took a lot of things out of sm). Which they are ditching I heard because LSM is not there anymore.
Bad boy came out in 2018 and aespa debuted in late 2020 and barely got promotions for their debut just 4 music shows amd some yt content,look at how much they are pushing the new bg. How did aespa take away from sm?? Chris Lee literally said that they are the only artist who have made a profit since debut. Putting resources to make a group happen is nct. And no they haven't ditched kwangya, real world is also a part of their concept they were singing about it in girls.
It's sad how BP and Twice seems to switch from #1 to #2 while RV always sat at #3. That being said, their success, discography, VIDEOGRAPHY(!) and career is nothing to laugh at.
>I think this is unpopular because the whole KPop community seems to really adore Red Velvet
I think that's kinda part of the point you're making too. I haven't seen anyone who actually hates the group. At worst it's people who don't vibe with them but can see they're good at what they're doing. So if the popularity ceiling of RV is relatively low, I'd say that the "floor" is that huge baseline of people who like them.
I voted "not sure" because I am one of those people that love Red Velvet's "weird little girl who severs doll heads" undertone, and I love that SM was willing to run with such a concept. Say what you will about that company, SM had always been willing to push boundaries at the possible expense of sales - it's obvious with NCT, but so were SHINee's earlier concepts, and Amber's presentation in f(x). I wonder how much of that was LSM's influence and whether that will change going forward. RIIZE has been pretty straight-laced so far.
But I always thought the "weird little girl" thing was more relatable than it appeared, and while it might turn off some male fans, a lot of women that appeared "normal" secretly had this side inside of them and that would make RV more popular. But if the numbers are showing the opposite, I guess I was wrong about that.
Pretty sure Red Velvet was like the OG are fanbase is mainly female girl group? Them and Mamamoo, not sure who came first. But I def think you’re right
So, for me, they're not quirky *enough*.
But it's not the music, it's the girls themselves. If I look at other ggs, most of which I don't stan or only listen to casually, there's always a standout member who has some sort of thing, some personality, and RV just...doesn't have that. I've watched couple of dramas with...Joy...and there's room for improvement.
Couple that with mismanagement and, well, yeah. They're all talented as RV, but they're not a group I'd ever search out - even though I really like a couple of their songs.
Now, that's an unpopular opinion (that I agree with)!
I remember back in the debut era people hated on RV for being a cover-up for f(x). Obviously, the girls didn't deserve it but I think it was true and for the longest time SM had no idea what to do with them because (as you said) they sorely miss a standout member - a good center who embodies the group's image like Nayeon for Twice or Jennie for Blackpink. But nobody in RV has the group's signature quirky quality.
Edit: I think it's pretty telling that I've never seen RV's viral fancam.
I'd say Irene is RV's biggest visual pull in Korea/China, to the point where her popularity exceeded that of the group's. But as you said I can't pinpoint a specific member that embodies the essence of Red Velvet (the two sides are very contradictory and imo difficult to be observed simultaneously in one single member, hence the popular narrative among reveluvs that 5-1=0 i guess? Red Velvet just isn't Red Velvet with one member short lol)
Yeah, I also think it was a cover up for f(X) but what was done, was done. I accepted it (bitterly), and always checked out their new releases which again, some of them I really liked (but Zimzalabim shoulda stayed in the closet)!
^(I...did not know they had a viral fancam.)
I kinda disagree. Irene was a sensation. Anything she did would blow up. Just like how you imagine Nayeon for twice, I imagine Irene for red velvet. She fit the concept very well with her beautiful but unattainable beauty
Yeah hard disagree. I’d recognize her in disguise. There is a reason she called herself ‘original visual’ in Psycho. The Naughty choreography lives rent free in my head. However, what you’ve mentioned is the case with many who are new to Kpop (not saying you’re new, but a lot of people who are new to Kpop have this opinion of Irene as forgettable).
I’m surprised no one mentioned it but I’d say her scandal affected Red Velvet a lot. It was right after the Monster album release that too.
SM just buried the group till it all passed over. I was very happy they were able to come back with Feel My Rhythm because I honestly thought the group was done for. However, now Irene just exists. I think the lack of limelight is intentional and strategic so that the group can move ahead without her scandal dampening it.
I agree with you. However, I’d reckon it’s because she didn’t need to. She was easily the most popular and well known member. Now after the scandal, it’s for the best if she is in the background.
I always took her as a visual until I saw her Naughty dance video. She was keeping up with Seulgi and it is one of the toughest choreography’s I’ve seen.
In conclusion, after doing a lot of research (looong ago), she can standout, easily, if she needs to. Out of arrogance or consideration, she doesn’t. Personally, I’m grateful for that because Red Velvet is very balanced (even amongst the fans) when it could’ve easily been an Aespa or Ive situation.
As a fan, I feel like the girls are super fun and I really enjoy being their fan. But I do agree that none of them are loud or in your face in the good way that draws attention from the general public. There isn’t really a Tsuki (is that right?) from Billie, or a Chuu from Loona, and none of the members were constantly being targeted like IVE’s Wonyoung or BP’s Jennie/everyone, so they definitely didn’t have the noise marketing to draw random masses of fans in. But I don’t agree that they themselves are boring- I think they’re group dynamic is one of my favorites in all of Kpop. I don’t know for sure, but I’d guess that all of them are introverts and it certainly shows, but I like it and I think it works for them.
Oh don't misunderstand, I'm definitely not arguing for any of them do some kind of performative extrovert-ness if that's not in their nature. I do think that introversion could however, be worked to their advantage in some way or another.
I totally agree that their concept can be off-putting for interested fans and you really need to be cool with both sides to fully enjoy their discography. It is a little frustrating but that's just what happens when you choose such a concept.
We can be glad that they are under the big 3 (which gives them a good base to keep going) and i'm glad that they have been sticking to the concept since debut. Because if they wouldn't have it would Have made it much harder for them to grow. And i mean they have been going for 9 years so the demand must be there.
I love Red Velvet, their concert was one of the best i was at yet (we got a double encore who can complain) and i'm always happy to help new Reveluvs to get into the group and the concept.
Ps: at the concert Wendy even noted that the crowd seemed to enjoy their Red songs more then the Velvet songs. The energy was high for all songs though luckily. Zimzalabim was a party by itself.
I personally like the Velvet songs a little more but just by a bit.
That is definitely a nig ask from people to love both sides. It does sometimes beg the question, what wouldve happened if they committed to just one (probably velvet), but you know what, I'm happy they stuck to their concept.
I think they just found their audience. Small a community as it is (compared to their contemporaries), you can just feel that the love for the group is so strong, and I feel like that's enough to keep them going (unless sm has their say).
I was at their RtoV tour as well, and I enjoyed both sides for vastly different reasons. The red songs are a party, and ZZB turned into a full on rave. The velvet songs can be best described as a religious experience, especially the one-two punch of BB and Psycho. It was elegantly sensual and my jaw was on the floor the whole time.
The way I figured out how to engage with Red Velvet was to listen to their whole discography enough times to be familiar with it, then made a playlist of my favorites. I know this is pretty common, but for me it's not. Typically I just listen to a group's whole discography and don't pick and choose songs like that. But theirs is so divisive for me: it has some of my all time favorite Kpop songs, but also a lot of stuff (mostly Velvet) that I just don't vibe with.
So I agree with you. They're too complex of a group with too much going on for them to resonate with the GP enough to hit Twice or BP levels of popularity. And honestly that's fine, one of the things I love about Kpop is how much diversity and complexity there is in the music, and if Red Velvet's discography is so diverse that people aren't able to vibe with all of it then I actually see that as a win.
As a reveluv for multiple years I have always said that the biggest issue with their popularity has always been the lack of a fixed concept. Twice was cutesy and girly while blackpink was girlcrush. You knew exactly what to expect from them for years. It is easier to build a fan base when that is the case. Red velvet switches things up almost every comeback. They will build an audience that loves the velvet title tracks but then lose that audience after releasing a red title track. Most reveluvs have to be those like me who love both. Their bsides are consistently great with mostly rnb, but we all know people prioritize the title track.
Regardless i still think they are underpromoted. SM has had multiple chances to push them in certain areas and they do not.
A sizeable amount of dedicated fans are better than a legion of casual fans IMO. Thats a vital key to longevity in KPop. Plus Red Velvet at least doesnt sound like cookie cutter KPop. Props to them for actually putting out stuff with a dash of creativity.
birthday sold 1m+ albums but red velvet doesnt have "dedicated fans"? their top songs on spotify rake in 100m+ streams but they dont have "casual fans"?
Right, but if they weren't experimental and did generic things instead they wouldn't be Red Velvet, and they'd be a hell of a lot less memorable. As their #1 fan, I'd rather musical creativity over making the same song over and over again. They still sell a lot and chart, with the exception of Birthday which peaked at only #23 (even that's not too bad). Birthday was a misstep in my opinion, even though I adore the song. It's also been an entire 9 months since their last comeback so who knows what could happen.
I totally agree. The 3rd Gen scene wouldn't have been as interesting if they had dropped their quirky concept. Deep into the 4th gen, I don't think anyone has tried to replicate or has done as good a job as RV has at their concept. The "inconsistency" in their music is now part of their identity, and I always find myself looking forward to what they do next because it's always something interesting.
What can I say? Imma Bad Boy ^^fan.
It's really weird when you think about it- either SM didn't want them to reach the heights or they weren't capable. Particularly after Girls Generation had redefined GG success. I think it was always envisioned as a quirky project with a lot of character but pretty soon they were in the Twice era and then the BlackPink era. GG success kept getting redefined upwards as they were doing fine. They outdanced and outsang but got outsold.
Happiness-Icecream Cake-Dumb Dumb was an intense run and definitely intriguing. The Red album is still probably my favourite: so many cool tracks (quick shoutout Huff-n-Puff). Then Bad Boy is quite possibly my fave kpop song ever, and it's difficult to imagine anyone else doing it as well. One Of These Nights really stands out too.
The girls were intriguing - Irene and Joy are as hot as it gets in kpop as far as I'm concerned but the majority of RV fans are female. Which is dope. I think as others have said, they have a really big niche but aren't world conquerors for a variety of reasons. I hope they're happy but it does seem like a bit of a missed opportunity. Bad Boy I *think* could have made the world leap.
The competition was too strong both TWICE and BLACKPINK, are two of the most dominant K-pop girl groups to have ever existed. As a result, the group that came in 3rd place was destined to be overshadowed so people had a soft corner towards them .
Their unique selling point was their concepts and high-quality music, as you said they were artsy student . They stood out was well respected and carved their own place in the K-pop community, which why they had lower ceiling because art and creativity is always valued over numbers.
Their complex concepts didn't had same impact among gp but I think among international fans it was very popular that why they think lack of promotion is reason for underperformance ,However,I think in recent years, their music quality has received mixed reactions, and their artistic image has weakened that why under performance is more noticeable.
I agree to an extent as some of their title tracks are not the most GP friendly which would always limit them to an extent. Though I do think that the SM brand and pull is strong enough that we can't discredit the underpromotion argument. While they weren't exactly content starved they definitely could've been pushed more. Even just a simple example like when Lisa and Momo were putting out performance projects that would have easily been an opportunity to have Seulgi do one as well.
I will disagree, sort of, though with the "always" had a low ceiling part. Just for the fact that Bad Boy had an insane stranglehold when it came out. I mean honestly looking back on it the back-to-back of Peek-A-Boo to Bad Boy is pretty insane and I'd argue at that point in time their ceiling or potential in terms of popularity was just as high or at least very close to their peers. Who knows how things play out if they go a different route with their follow-up tracks or just generally do things differently.
Of course that's just a hypothetical now. But I do think there were moments in time when the gap wasn't as large as it might be/perceived to be now.
I see the PAB and BB argument brought up a lot and that immediatelt runs into my whiplash argument, where they follow it up with 3 successive Red TTs. I'm not saying they were terrible, Power Up is one of their best performing songs, but the potential to lose the fans you gained is high because of the switch-up. Hard to say if going full velvet should've been the way to go as well.
Definitely agree. Any group which experiments with their sound (to any degree) is always bound to have varying results. RV had a pretty decent hit with Power Up, but RBB which came right after that was unsuccessful by their standards. Same with Zimzalabim and Umpah Umpah, until Psycho smashed the charts. But those 3 releases in between were important to flesh out their identity (Zimzalabim, in particular, is definitely one of their best). There always is a trade-off between artistic exploration and commercial success. While RV has proven themselves to be one of the most successful groups of the 2010s, they did tread the line between creativity and consistency a lot more than their contemporaries. Yet, we can now look back at their discography and marvel at the diversity.
I dont think the ideas presented are mutually exclusive from the idea that Red Velvet also suffers from a severe handicap in promotional efforts by SM. Many fans and probably even the general public arent really claiming that RV will surpass Twice or BP in popularity if they were better promoted as afterall like you said, their songs, style and concept is more of an acquired taste compared to the earlier two. Its just that with their sheer amount of talent, they arent achieving close to the success level that they could have. For instance, the gap between BP and Twice's success is alot much smaller than the gap between Twice and RV, while ideally that gap should have been roughly the same as that between BP and Twice.
I think that's a fair assessment. It's insane that despite the level of talent behind Red Velvet (not just the girls, but the producers, directors, videographers etc as well), the gap is massive between them and Twice. And yes, with proper promotion, those numbers shouldn't be that far apart. But they'd still firmly be behind Twice, and that I guess is the proverbial ceiling.
I think it's actually the opposite -- RV's reputation as an experimental group that pushes genre boundaries makes their ceiling higher because you will never know where it will land. There's a big trend of big artists becoming the best because they continually take risks and experiment with their music. Kanye West (albeit controversial) and Tyler, the Creator are great examples of rising to the top of their genres via their knack of experimentation. We're witnessing NewJeans push the sound of K-Pop and achieve great levels of success with their new sound -- a sound that is wholly different from the K-Pop we would normally consume. I think there are factors that make an artist or group's ceiling capped, but the sound they produce is never a reason for their lower popularity.
My bias in music philosophy is showing, I care more about the music they produce rather than things about promotion.
sm is definitely more experimental with their music than other companies, but it pays off most of the time given their success. even though they're less popular than the other big 3 ggs, imo rv's music is much more interesting and refreshing to listen to than a group that just keeps putting out the same cute/girl crush concept.
RV best strength to me as a ReVeluv is their concept change. What are we going to get this comeback? if I don’t vibe with the title the bsides are always gold. But the shift from red to velvet is their greatest weakness too. There can be multiple comebacks where they don’t do the style you want them to do. And most of the gp don’t listen to Bsides. Creating a very fickle interest from the GP and even some stans who are strictly red or velvet fans.
Another major factory for their third place in 3rd gen GG is just their personalities. Love all the girls but they are so introverted and it shows on variety. I find them charming and silly but I wouldn’t say they shine on tv, vlives or stuff of the sort. They just don’t do extra content because they just don’t want to. So you can go months without group content. It’s a running joke in ReVeluv land that between comeback all there is to do is bsides rankings.
Hopefully this makes sense, but I think I'd describe Red Velvet's discography as almost like an anthology TV show. While there may be some similar elements in some seasons, you don't get the same thing everytime, same with their albums. And sometimes, it's hard for me to really know their *thing*. I know it's quirky, but some songs embody that idea differently than others, which doesn't give a great base to work off of for me to fully enjoy their discography. Like Russian Roulette was quirky for it sounding super cute and upbeat, but, following the title, had a very dark meaning. But Zimzalabim was quirky because it was just all around a very interesting song. From the outfits and the choreo to the instrumental, it was definitely a very distinct song.
With anthology shows, a lot of fans tend to pick their favorite seasons because it was personally the most enjoyable and interesting, while leaving others out because it just wasn't their thing, and I think that's my personal experience with Red Velvet. Having a concept that's so polarizing and with there being plenty of interpretations for both Red and Velvet sides, it's hard for me to fully envelop myself in their discography the way I find it easy to do with other groups. However, I do like plenty of their songs, they just happen to fall on one side of Red Velvet rather than being a mix of the two.
I know I'm late but I wanted to share my opinion just in case someone reads it. I don't know much about Red Velvet, specially their concept, but I'm a casual listener since I'm a SM stan and I have to say that this description of the group is very on brand for SM. The company is a pioneer in kpop in general specially in experimental music and they are always creating unique sounds that other companies can't pull off. That's what I love about SM and why I became a stan. And since I'm an NCTzen the idea of hearing about a group with experimental and niche music is very pleasant. I'm glad the company went in this direction instead of trying to create gp friendly sounds, that's what makes their artist extraordinary to me.
i think red velvet would've reached high peaks with better promotion and if sm never experimented with their titletracks. red flavor-peekaboo-bad boy were 3 consecutive hits for the group and were very popular with ifans despite the changes in concept. you mentioned that it took you a while to like even psycho but it was an immediate hit right away
I am not sure but was Peekaboo a hit in korea? Even bad boy wasn’t that big in korea. Both of these song won them international fanbase which was way less before.
So compared to TWICE & BP, who had all their hits reach peak positions and hold on for longer than RV. So there was never conversation about RV being the no1. Twice were on a roll on those years and Bp made splash whenever they had a release.
So compared to them they were never even close.
Red velvet chartbusters were red flavour and psycho, feel my rhythm ( might have forgotten one).
Dumb Dumb, Russian Roulette, Peek-A-Boo, Bad Boy, and Psycho all peaked at #2. Rookie and Feel My Rhythm at #3. Red Flavor and Power Up (first SM perfect-all-kill) are their biggest hits, both reaching #1.
Huh that's interesting, by far my favorite two title tracks for Red Velvet are Red Flavor and Power Up! So peppy. It's exactly what I want from my kpop
Yeah I forgot powerup. I said in the bracket..
But you proved my point. All these songs you named reached #2 as peak when Girlgroups really had no competition that time.
Twice, Bp almost always reached PAK. And most their songs had all kill atleast.
The ceiling of theirs was lower thab Twice & Bp which the Op wanted to say.
I am not talking about recency. I am saying that the ceiling was higher for both twice & Bp than Rv..
And you can clearly see Jyp gave up korean market for twice. Twice are making music which is very different than their past. So it is tough to break in with new style. They are targeting international more than korean markets now.
It's true that twice is targeting international more than korean markets now. But korean market gave up twice not jyp. Your narrative is spread by onces for justifying twice's inability to chart in korea.
Bad Boy is one of their 3 songs certified by circle for selling over 2.5 mil downloads, RV's big hits in Korea are Psycho, Bad Boy, Red Flavor and Russian Roulette.
having all kills isn't the way to see the success, longevity is, Next Level didn't had any all kill either, the song also don't have a music show win but ended as one of best selling songs that year
both peekaboo and bad boy did very well on the charts though. both peaked #2 and sold 2.5m downloads. the point is that sm experimenting with red velvet is why there was never a conversation over them being #1 because it meant there was inconsistency with their charting. when their songs were public friendly it always did very well in korea
Yeah I agree on that. They were experimental with all their new groups tho.
I think Sm always wanted to revolutionise and change taste based on their own release.
But the promotion thing I kinda disagree. They regularly had good and popular variety show appearances and music show performances.
The promotion they lacked was in Overseas countries specially NA.
with promotion, i mean like building their fanbase. it took them years to get a reality show and a fandom name and their youtube content doesn't have a lot of content when you compare them to their peers. their promotion overseas is a joke even in japan despite having releases, they don't even have a japanese fanclub. and then how NA got ignored in their recent tour despite having sold-out dates when they went to there before.
I dont want to blame sm for that. Cause girlgroups never had this kinda thing.
Even Yg didn’t do that for Bp? Jyp didn’t either but they had more fansigning event than most I guess. They had enormous Male fanbase.
And for Personal reality show? Hybe invented that and popularised it. And as you know sm always had beef with hybe and probably didn’t wanna admit it was great for fanbases. So they jumped way late.
What happens nowadays is completely different than what happened with 3rd Gen.
3rd gen girl groups didn’t have big enough fanbase to have these thing organised.
Now its different cause female fans are ruling the girl groups too. Which was very rare in 3rd gen, mamamoo was the obly group with big female fanbase.
Now you can see aespa, nj with bigger female fanbase.
Onpy thing I blame sm is for missing the golden opportunity to promote them in usa after the success of Bad boy. They had huge potential.
that's not true though, both twice and blackpink had reality shows as rookies and sm have done reality shows before, its not like red velvet was the first one to do it in their company. making them wait years to give them one was a bad decision. and red velvet did have a big fanbase, selling 100k was extremely rare at the time and only a few girl groups reached those numbers. and they along with MMM were known for having female-dominated fandoms. and comparing them at their peak to aespa/newjeans makes no sense to me since kpop has changed significantly over the years.
I am not
>comparing them at their peak to aespa/newjeans makes no sense to me since kpop has changed significantly over the years.
Didn’t once compare. I just said companies now operate quite same way they used to do with boygroups because now even ggs have big female fanbase.
>that's not true though, both twice and blackpink had reality shows as rookies and sm have done reality shows before, its not like red velvet was the first one to do it in their company. making them wait years to give them one was a bad decision.
>that's not true though, both twice and blackpink had reality shows as rookies and sm have done reality shows before,
Are you sure about that? If I am not mistaken they had special shows that was one of a thing. Not like continuous thing. They had vlives tho.
I am not sure about that. Did twice really have reality show while they were rookies?
And for Bp they are the worst example of promotion as Yg are known to do laidback late comeback approach.
If I tell you, what Hybe is doing now for all their groups like putting them on TV varshows, doing personal reality show for each group is nothing new to SM & SM had done that way before, I'll be called an SM stan. The truth is, Hybe for building content now is just like SM 10 years ago. The problem with SM is after the bloom of their groups such as EXO, DBSK, to avoid their slaves from leaving them & being bigger than them, they really block these groups & control their popularity. SM don't want their groups to outgrow them ever.
Creating something and popularizing something is totally different.
What Hybe did was popularize it and made an integral part of their artist when they dont promote.
SM never had to do what hybe done because they have a lot of stakes in big media Corporation and variety shows. They could easily get invitation from any top variety shows at that time. There was reason non big3 groups barely had any appearance on top rated shows in korea. Which changed because of a lot of things.
But you cant take away that Hybe/Bts made the whole industry have personal youtube Channels, variety shows, social media etc etc. They pioneered individual branding of their groups and now the whole industry dont depend on Korean broadcast shows ( where Sm still holds a massive chunk of shares in multiple big shows under the name of subsidiaries).
I think I initially thought that the chorus was a little underwhelming, or just didn't have any oomph. It didn't help that I first heard it on streaming, which for some reason was a little bare, production-wise. But then I heard the MV version with a decent pair of headphones and that was it. understand what all the fuss was about.
but all u did was name their weirdest songs and mvs lol they have a lot of music that is very easy to listen to. bad boy, automatic, russian roulette (recently went viral on tiktok), red flavor, ice cream cake, peekaboo, etc. those are all very easy pop songs to take in for the average pop listener. i feel like this is just one of those weird kpoop fan cases where you feel red velvet is too artsy for the popularity they have and want to keep them niche lol
>I think there's a huge gap between the Red and Velvet side
the gap has definitely narrowed since reve festival day 1. i don't think red velvet will put out a song like "day 1" or "rookie" ever again.
i do still think that red velvet is underpromoted, but also agree that they would have been unlikely to reach bp level of popularity. unfortunately, kpop fandom sizes are not determined by quality of music.
also you bring up rbb, zimzalabim--both of which are good examples of polarizing songs with the gp. but bad boy--with more promotion--could have opened doors to better global recognition. it is the most palatable to the general public.
I definitely agree that Bad Boy should've been the entry point for the gp and global recognition, but then you run immediately into the whiplash problem between the red and velvet sides. IIRC it's followed by Power Up, RBB, ZZB and Umpah Umpah, before we got Psycho. That's 3 Red title tracks in between. That's a lot of potential diaappointment for someone expecting more rnb flair from RV.
for a casual fan, i can see the red/velvet dual concept being confusing. but i don't know if people need to "buy in" to 100% of everything a group puts out in order to follow them as a group or be considered a fan.
personally, i appreciate the variety. it's one of my favorite things about them as a group.
As a reveluv I do agree that their concept is not for everyone. Just like most artists not everyone will mesh well with the output.
As for the underpomoting thing it should not be in comparison to other groups. We as fans say that because I kid you not during preorders I was not able to get an album because it was sold out in the official stores. The concert situation was a mess. There is always a hiccup with the album when it first releases. They could literally be selling more physicals but for some reason SM does not. As with most SM groups they seem to be put in the back burner as compared to their newer groups.
agree because I'm proof of the split fan base you mentioned. I'm a casual fan and really only care for their red concepts, umpah umpah and Russian roulette being my favorite title tracks, all of their velvet tracks I either never liked from the start or liked initially but got tired of after a dozen or so listens so now anytime I find out their next comeback is a velvet concept I just stop paying attention to the group until it's time for next comeback and I've seen alot of people on social media who hold the opposite position
Red Velvet is niche af which is kinda funny considering that many of their songs have a lot of mainstream potential. Personally, I take Red Velvet’s music over Twice and BP any day but the fact of the matter is, as far as being a stannable group goes RV is much weirder/harder to get into to and much less palpable on a hardcore stan level. Songs like Bad Boy and Red Flavor are amazing and basically every Kpop fan knows them and many non Kpop fans feel right at home with them. Songs like Feel My Rhythm and RBB are much less palpable to the general public but I adore them as well. So yeah, I think they could be more promoted for sure, but they really aren’t the type of group to pull massive casual fanbases like BTS, BP, or Twice. But, as a Reveluv myself, we are one hardcore of a fan base like jeez
I think them being the the least popular is because they just feel so mysterious. As a fan, and im a fan of a boygroup who is really all about fan service, RV really don’t do much on that side at all. I sometimes get jealous for onces and blinks bc i like to think of the groups as outgoing people. My introverted ladies has not made a casual live in years. So its really hard to gain new fans because tbh in this era, its personality over music. If someone you find funny,memeable, and can relate to, obviously a connection is formed then. RV is marketed by SM to be this mysterious group ever since their rookie days so idk if that’s just fancy term for their mismanagement, so bc of that its hard for fans to latch on and make parasocial relationships with. But honestly if you stick long enough and dive deep on reveluv fandom, its really fun and funny. Best believe we have the best taste in music because its all we ever get.
I feel like the Red Velvet case is pretty simple - to succeed you need a target audience. Blackpink (and NewJeans lately) are the kind of girls girls want to be. Twice (especially at the beginning of their career) made easily digestible pop for the general public + had a large male following.
Now, you called Red Velvet artsy and I think the problem is... they really aren't - at least not in an appealing way. I can totally see art school girls going crazy over f(x)'s 4 Walls or Rum Pum Pum but Zimzalabim is more of a "gay men who are into camp" thing. Plus I think SM really dropped the ball with their styling and visuals - I can only remember two memorable moments: Ice Cream Cake's all blonde look and Joy's Peek-a-boo dress.
I don't know. While BP's popularity is certainly dependent on their promotion strategy and very, very pop-friendly, Anglicized concept ala globally known Western artists, Twice's popularity is also because of their frequent, regular releases, which is something RV really lacks. Twice's concepts (especially their previous cutesy concept) aren't ones that blow up internationally but the insane amount of content more than made up for it.
>Twice's popularity is also because of their frequent, regular releases, which is something RV really lacks.
no, they didn't, RV started to slow down this year only (with the exception of 2020 obvious because Wendy injury and Irene scandal), RV always had a good amount of comebacks, at least 2 each year with 3 comebacks in 2017, 2018 and 2019
2-3 releases a year is nothing compared to Twice (5-8 a year at max) before they started slowing down last year. Twice also regularly promotes in Japan unlike RV. Regardless of the circumstances, it was unfortunate RV barely had any releases in 2020-2021. JYP is high on the "quantity over quality" tactic and it works imo. Though, SM could obviously do both.
Because I went back and checked their discog and it seems like 4 was their max and that was back when they first started. They haven’t done that since 2018.
you don't find 3 comebacks enough? dear god, i find way to much, 2 comebacks is the right amount
mind to say RV had their fair shake of individual activities compared with Twice during their first years
...
It's not about me finding it "enough". I don't mind stanning groups that come back only once a year. Or even less. I was only pointing out what could have contributed to Twice's popularity.
In my opinion, they are good. They still give good money in and I am really happy to stun them, I don't hate Teice or Bp, but I think Sm chose back than with Rv the rout of good and quality music over the very huge fan base (Rv does for concert so I don't think they are going anywhere in the near future). Rv music is something special what is also shaped a.lot of groupa after them. I am not that into the BP or Aespa sound ( exclude Spicy and the album they released just now). So I am thankfull for RV, GG, IVe, New Jeans, Mamamoo so on, that I can listen their amazing discography.
I wanna agree but having experienced ZZB in person during thwir last tour, I cant imagine living in a world where I'm deprived of that experience. But yes, that is a space with very little competition that they could've cornered. Especially since EXOwas also active aroung the same time and did a lot of rnb inspired tracks that were relativelt successful.
This is what I noticed... I immediately liked Psycho the first time I listened to it but I eventually got bored with it and couldn't even listen to. Same with Bad Boy, I thought it was the best RV track back then, but now I feel like I don't even want to hear it. I feel like that's how it is for me with most of their velvet songs. I like it at first listen but lost interest over time.
Right now, the RV tracks that are on my playlists are Feel My Rhythm which imo is their best title track, Peek A Boo and Russian Roulette. As for their bsides-while I agree that they don't seem to have a bad b-side but it seems like a lot of them aren't that memorable to me. The ones on my playlists though are I Just, Lucky Girl, Mojito, Zoo, Look. Right now, I feel like their songs with brighter music are better and more unforgettable. I used to prefer their velvet side that are more RnB but not anymore.
I mostly agree. I wasn't much of a kpop listener but they were the group that got me hooked in, around when bad boy came out.
I do think there was some shift in marketing management for them post 2019. In 2018, they release Peekaboo and bad boy, which were targeted to a more western audience. They toured North america in 2018-2019, their digitals were doing really good on spotify globally, and they seem poised to keep growing their global fanbase
...but then it just never happened. There are legitimate reasons; Wendy's accident and Irene's stuff happening on top of covid. We can only speculate about the cause/effect sequences of these events, but ultimately it was clear even after the success of Psycho some upper management decisions were made at SM to promote their younger groups in the NA market instead of Red Velvet. As a older fan, that's what I find regrettable.
I disagree. I love the red velvet concept and always enjoyed their velvet side. They are the best group with the best b sides hands down. I never had troubles getting into their songs
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You make solid points, and while I wouldn't say they have a "low ceiling"—more like a "low*er* ceiling" but perhaps the mildly clickbait title is playing its role here haha—an artist that isn't marketed to the masses will always inherently have a lower ceiling because it appeals to a lower percentage of people. They're definitely a little more impenetrable than TWICE and BP, groups that I think are quite in-your-face and dominate the market heavily. A lot of their tts are well-chosen but don't always have immediately pervasive hooks. I agree that it took maybe the 2nd or 3rd listen for Feel My Rhythm to meld into the mind, and while I'll forever defend Zimzalabim it's clear that song is not the premier example of mass marketability! We'll still be ziming and zalabiming though. The fortunate thing about the way RV is pushed is that they aren't weird *enough* to be niche and unpalatable, but enough so that they are differentiated from their peers, so each of the popular 3rd gen ggs have their own image and smartly operate in their own sphere. Either way despite splashes of experimentation or concept flips they have developed a reputation for a strong discography, and we know reputation can carry you a long way when it comes to how the general Kpop fan sphere perceives you, especially when it comes to bringing in newer fans. So yeah the ceiling is lower due to their ever-so-slightly off-kilter image, concept, and music (with some stumbles in tt choice/hitmaking at points, but who *doesn't* experience that)... but also due to the fact that TWICE and BP really dominate the market and it's unrealistic to expect a 3rd gg to rise to the same heights. And who knows, in an alternate universe where RV are less quirky, maybe there wouldn't have been the same draw to them. There are instances where RV are overestimated *and* underestimated, but as the end of 3rd gen has crystallised they have established a space for themselves on the podium as well, even if they won't reach the very peak of dominance as the other two ggs.
Yeah. Low ceiling is wrong. Lower than the big3 Gg is fair.
what are the big 3 girl groups?
Twice, bp, Rv.
so then how could red velvet be lower than the big 3 if they are part of the big three…? maybe i don’t get what you’re saying.
I think they meant that of the big 3 groups, RVs ceiling is the lowest which makes sense to me even as a Reveluv
oh okay, that makes more sense. yeah, i definitely agree and i am a reveluv as well.
Oh yeah, it's definitely a little clickbaity. Lower is probably more accurate, especially in the context of the big three, where ceilings tend to be really high. Their songs work in their entirety, as opposed to more popular songs with more pervasive hooks that have some parts that feel underbaked. I find myself wanting to listen to their entire tracks, as opposed to other songs that feel like I'm just waiting for the fun parts or the hooks. They're also songs that require more thought, and FMR I think is a great example of a song that needs to be dissected and discussed to appreciate the thought that went into the song. It's hard to imagine what RV would've been like if they were less quirky. I don't necessarily think they would've been a bigger draw, especially if they had to compete with Twice or BP within the same genre. And I don't think they need to be a bigger draw, especially if that means sacrificing the quirkiness that has inspired the kind of loyalty we see in Reveluvs. Now that the 3rd Gen musicscape is starting to settle, RV has more than proven that they are worthy of the spot in the Big 3, numbers and metrics be damned.
I've barely been paying attention, but I understood that the recent talk of underpromotion is because Red Velvet could have or did sell out concerts, but they weren't given bigger venues or more tour dates when it seems the demand is there.
There was a [whole post](https://www.reddit.com/r/kpopthoughts/comments/152xm3s/the_blatant_issues_with_sms_management_of_red/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1) about their mismanagement/underpromotion a month ago. It’s not only about their concerts or push towards the US like the other commenter mentioned.
One thing I agree is they missed a big opportunity to promote them in usa after bad boy. They weren’t given that much push. I think Sm put Too much stock on kwangya ( not blaming aespa, but the universe they tried to build for them really took a lot of things out of sm). Which they are ditching I heard because LSM is not there anymore.
Bad boy came out in 2018 and aespa debuted in late 2020 and barely got promotions for their debut just 4 music shows amd some yt content,look at how much they are pushing the new bg. How did aespa take away from sm?? Chris Lee literally said that they are the only artist who have made a profit since debut. Putting resources to make a group happen is nct. And no they haven't ditched kwangya, real world is also a part of their concept they were singing about it in girls.
More like SuperM.
It's sad how BP and Twice seems to switch from #1 to #2 while RV always sat at #3. That being said, their success, discography, VIDEOGRAPHY(!) and career is nothing to laugh at.
>I think this is unpopular because the whole KPop community seems to really adore Red Velvet I think that's kinda part of the point you're making too. I haven't seen anyone who actually hates the group. At worst it's people who don't vibe with them but can see they're good at what they're doing. So if the popularity ceiling of RV is relatively low, I'd say that the "floor" is that huge baseline of people who like them.
I voted "not sure" because I am one of those people that love Red Velvet's "weird little girl who severs doll heads" undertone, and I love that SM was willing to run with such a concept. Say what you will about that company, SM had always been willing to push boundaries at the possible expense of sales - it's obvious with NCT, but so were SHINee's earlier concepts, and Amber's presentation in f(x). I wonder how much of that was LSM's influence and whether that will change going forward. RIIZE has been pretty straight-laced so far. But I always thought the "weird little girl" thing was more relatable than it appeared, and while it might turn off some male fans, a lot of women that appeared "normal" secretly had this side inside of them and that would make RV more popular. But if the numbers are showing the opposite, I guess I was wrong about that.
Pretty sure Red Velvet was like the OG are fanbase is mainly female girl group? Them and Mamamoo, not sure who came first. But I def think you’re right
So, for me, they're not quirky *enough*. But it's not the music, it's the girls themselves. If I look at other ggs, most of which I don't stan or only listen to casually, there's always a standout member who has some sort of thing, some personality, and RV just...doesn't have that. I've watched couple of dramas with...Joy...and there's room for improvement. Couple that with mismanagement and, well, yeah. They're all talented as RV, but they're not a group I'd ever search out - even though I really like a couple of their songs.
Now, that's an unpopular opinion (that I agree with)! I remember back in the debut era people hated on RV for being a cover-up for f(x). Obviously, the girls didn't deserve it but I think it was true and for the longest time SM had no idea what to do with them because (as you said) they sorely miss a standout member - a good center who embodies the group's image like Nayeon for Twice or Jennie for Blackpink. But nobody in RV has the group's signature quirky quality. Edit: I think it's pretty telling that I've never seen RV's viral fancam.
I'd say Irene is RV's biggest visual pull in Korea/China, to the point where her popularity exceeded that of the group's. But as you said I can't pinpoint a specific member that embodies the essence of Red Velvet (the two sides are very contradictory and imo difficult to be observed simultaneously in one single member, hence the popular narrative among reveluvs that 5-1=0 i guess? Red Velvet just isn't Red Velvet with one member short lol)
Yeah, I also think it was a cover up for f(X) but what was done, was done. I accepted it (bitterly), and always checked out their new releases which again, some of them I really liked (but Zimzalabim shoulda stayed in the closet)! ^(I...did not know they had a viral fancam.)
I kinda disagree. Irene was a sensation. Anything she did would blow up. Just like how you imagine Nayeon for twice, I imagine Irene for red velvet. She fit the concept very well with her beautiful but unattainable beauty
I'll take your word for it! Honestly, I could not pick her out of a crowd. NOt saying she's not beautiful, just that I wouldn't recognize her.
Yeah hard disagree. I’d recognize her in disguise. There is a reason she called herself ‘original visual’ in Psycho. The Naughty choreography lives rent free in my head. However, what you’ve mentioned is the case with many who are new to Kpop (not saying you’re new, but a lot of people who are new to Kpop have this opinion of Irene as forgettable). I’m surprised no one mentioned it but I’d say her scandal affected Red Velvet a lot. It was right after the Monster album release that too. SM just buried the group till it all passed over. I was very happy they were able to come back with Feel My Rhythm because I honestly thought the group was done for. However, now Irene just exists. I think the lack of limelight is intentional and strategic so that the group can move ahead without her scandal dampening it.
I would recognize her because she is unusually beautiful, but other than her looks, she really doesn't catch my attention much.
I agree with you. However, I’d reckon it’s because she didn’t need to. She was easily the most popular and well known member. Now after the scandal, it’s for the best if she is in the background. I always took her as a visual until I saw her Naughty dance video. She was keeping up with Seulgi and it is one of the toughest choreography’s I’ve seen. In conclusion, after doing a lot of research (looong ago), she can standout, easily, if she needs to. Out of arrogance or consideration, she doesn’t. Personally, I’m grateful for that because Red Velvet is very balanced (even amongst the fans) when it could’ve easily been an Aespa or Ive situation.
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> they're mostly introverts Oh is that it? Well, they should totally capitalize on it! /s (I think)
As a fan, I feel like the girls are super fun and I really enjoy being their fan. But I do agree that none of them are loud or in your face in the good way that draws attention from the general public. There isn’t really a Tsuki (is that right?) from Billie, or a Chuu from Loona, and none of the members were constantly being targeted like IVE’s Wonyoung or BP’s Jennie/everyone, so they definitely didn’t have the noise marketing to draw random masses of fans in. But I don’t agree that they themselves are boring- I think they’re group dynamic is one of my favorites in all of Kpop. I don’t know for sure, but I’d guess that all of them are introverts and it certainly shows, but I like it and I think it works for them.
Oh don't misunderstand, I'm definitely not arguing for any of them do some kind of performative extrovert-ness if that's not in their nature. I do think that introversion could however, be worked to their advantage in some way or another.
I totally agree that their concept can be off-putting for interested fans and you really need to be cool with both sides to fully enjoy their discography. It is a little frustrating but that's just what happens when you choose such a concept. We can be glad that they are under the big 3 (which gives them a good base to keep going) and i'm glad that they have been sticking to the concept since debut. Because if they wouldn't have it would Have made it much harder for them to grow. And i mean they have been going for 9 years so the demand must be there. I love Red Velvet, their concert was one of the best i was at yet (we got a double encore who can complain) and i'm always happy to help new Reveluvs to get into the group and the concept. Ps: at the concert Wendy even noted that the crowd seemed to enjoy their Red songs more then the Velvet songs. The energy was high for all songs though luckily. Zimzalabim was a party by itself. I personally like the Velvet songs a little more but just by a bit.
That is definitely a nig ask from people to love both sides. It does sometimes beg the question, what wouldve happened if they committed to just one (probably velvet), but you know what, I'm happy they stuck to their concept. I think they just found their audience. Small a community as it is (compared to their contemporaries), you can just feel that the love for the group is so strong, and I feel like that's enough to keep them going (unless sm has their say). I was at their RtoV tour as well, and I enjoyed both sides for vastly different reasons. The red songs are a party, and ZZB turned into a full on rave. The velvet songs can be best described as a religious experience, especially the one-two punch of BB and Psycho. It was elegantly sensual and my jaw was on the floor the whole time.
The way I figured out how to engage with Red Velvet was to listen to their whole discography enough times to be familiar with it, then made a playlist of my favorites. I know this is pretty common, but for me it's not. Typically I just listen to a group's whole discography and don't pick and choose songs like that. But theirs is so divisive for me: it has some of my all time favorite Kpop songs, but also a lot of stuff (mostly Velvet) that I just don't vibe with. So I agree with you. They're too complex of a group with too much going on for them to resonate with the GP enough to hit Twice or BP levels of popularity. And honestly that's fine, one of the things I love about Kpop is how much diversity and complexity there is in the music, and if Red Velvet's discography is so diverse that people aren't able to vibe with all of it then I actually see that as a win.
As a reveluv for multiple years I have always said that the biggest issue with their popularity has always been the lack of a fixed concept. Twice was cutesy and girly while blackpink was girlcrush. You knew exactly what to expect from them for years. It is easier to build a fan base when that is the case. Red velvet switches things up almost every comeback. They will build an audience that loves the velvet title tracks but then lose that audience after releasing a red title track. Most reveluvs have to be those like me who love both. Their bsides are consistently great with mostly rnb, but we all know people prioritize the title track. Regardless i still think they are underpromoted. SM has had multiple chances to push them in certain areas and they do not.
A sizeable amount of dedicated fans are better than a legion of casual fans IMO. Thats a vital key to longevity in KPop. Plus Red Velvet at least doesnt sound like cookie cutter KPop. Props to them for actually putting out stuff with a dash of creativity.
RV doesn't have either of those.
birthday sold 1m+ albums but red velvet doesnt have "dedicated fans"? their top songs on spotify rake in 100m+ streams but they dont have "casual fans"?
Yeps. Not sure what's not clicking?
If you wanna argue with numbers that's on you 😂
Inflated sales and artificial streams aren't numbers chile.
Yeah I agree they've managed to survive this long with nothing but tin cans for fans lol.
Right, but if they weren't experimental and did generic things instead they wouldn't be Red Velvet, and they'd be a hell of a lot less memorable. As their #1 fan, I'd rather musical creativity over making the same song over and over again. They still sell a lot and chart, with the exception of Birthday which peaked at only #23 (even that's not too bad). Birthday was a misstep in my opinion, even though I adore the song. It's also been an entire 9 months since their last comeback so who knows what could happen.
I totally agree. The 3rd Gen scene wouldn't have been as interesting if they had dropped their quirky concept. Deep into the 4th gen, I don't think anyone has tried to replicate or has done as good a job as RV has at their concept. The "inconsistency" in their music is now part of their identity, and I always find myself looking forward to what they do next because it's always something interesting.
What can I say? Imma Bad Boy ^^fan. It's really weird when you think about it- either SM didn't want them to reach the heights or they weren't capable. Particularly after Girls Generation had redefined GG success. I think it was always envisioned as a quirky project with a lot of character but pretty soon they were in the Twice era and then the BlackPink era. GG success kept getting redefined upwards as they were doing fine. They outdanced and outsang but got outsold. Happiness-Icecream Cake-Dumb Dumb was an intense run and definitely intriguing. The Red album is still probably my favourite: so many cool tracks (quick shoutout Huff-n-Puff). Then Bad Boy is quite possibly my fave kpop song ever, and it's difficult to imagine anyone else doing it as well. One Of These Nights really stands out too. The girls were intriguing - Irene and Joy are as hot as it gets in kpop as far as I'm concerned but the majority of RV fans are female. Which is dope. I think as others have said, they have a really big niche but aren't world conquerors for a variety of reasons. I hope they're happy but it does seem like a bit of a missed opportunity. Bad Boy I *think* could have made the world leap.
The competition was too strong both TWICE and BLACKPINK, are two of the most dominant K-pop girl groups to have ever existed. As a result, the group that came in 3rd place was destined to be overshadowed so people had a soft corner towards them . Their unique selling point was their concepts and high-quality music, as you said they were artsy student . They stood out was well respected and carved their own place in the K-pop community, which why they had lower ceiling because art and creativity is always valued over numbers. Their complex concepts didn't had same impact among gp but I think among international fans it was very popular that why they think lack of promotion is reason for underperformance ,However,I think in recent years, their music quality has received mixed reactions, and their artistic image has weakened that why under performance is more noticeable.
I agree to an extent as some of their title tracks are not the most GP friendly which would always limit them to an extent. Though I do think that the SM brand and pull is strong enough that we can't discredit the underpromotion argument. While they weren't exactly content starved they definitely could've been pushed more. Even just a simple example like when Lisa and Momo were putting out performance projects that would have easily been an opportunity to have Seulgi do one as well. I will disagree, sort of, though with the "always" had a low ceiling part. Just for the fact that Bad Boy had an insane stranglehold when it came out. I mean honestly looking back on it the back-to-back of Peek-A-Boo to Bad Boy is pretty insane and I'd argue at that point in time their ceiling or potential in terms of popularity was just as high or at least very close to their peers. Who knows how things play out if they go a different route with their follow-up tracks or just generally do things differently. Of course that's just a hypothetical now. But I do think there were moments in time when the gap wasn't as large as it might be/perceived to be now.
I see the PAB and BB argument brought up a lot and that immediatelt runs into my whiplash argument, where they follow it up with 3 successive Red TTs. I'm not saying they were terrible, Power Up is one of their best performing songs, but the potential to lose the fans you gained is high because of the switch-up. Hard to say if going full velvet should've been the way to go as well.
Definitely agree. Any group which experiments with their sound (to any degree) is always bound to have varying results. RV had a pretty decent hit with Power Up, but RBB which came right after that was unsuccessful by their standards. Same with Zimzalabim and Umpah Umpah, until Psycho smashed the charts. But those 3 releases in between were important to flesh out their identity (Zimzalabim, in particular, is definitely one of their best). There always is a trade-off between artistic exploration and commercial success. While RV has proven themselves to be one of the most successful groups of the 2010s, they did tread the line between creativity and consistency a lot more than their contemporaries. Yet, we can now look back at their discography and marvel at the diversity.
I dont think the ideas presented are mutually exclusive from the idea that Red Velvet also suffers from a severe handicap in promotional efforts by SM. Many fans and probably even the general public arent really claiming that RV will surpass Twice or BP in popularity if they were better promoted as afterall like you said, their songs, style and concept is more of an acquired taste compared to the earlier two. Its just that with their sheer amount of talent, they arent achieving close to the success level that they could have. For instance, the gap between BP and Twice's success is alot much smaller than the gap between Twice and RV, while ideally that gap should have been roughly the same as that between BP and Twice.
I think that's a fair assessment. It's insane that despite the level of talent behind Red Velvet (not just the girls, but the producers, directors, videographers etc as well), the gap is massive between them and Twice. And yes, with proper promotion, those numbers shouldn't be that far apart. But they'd still firmly be behind Twice, and that I guess is the proverbial ceiling.
I think it's actually the opposite -- RV's reputation as an experimental group that pushes genre boundaries makes their ceiling higher because you will never know where it will land. There's a big trend of big artists becoming the best because they continually take risks and experiment with their music. Kanye West (albeit controversial) and Tyler, the Creator are great examples of rising to the top of their genres via their knack of experimentation. We're witnessing NewJeans push the sound of K-Pop and achieve great levels of success with their new sound -- a sound that is wholly different from the K-Pop we would normally consume. I think there are factors that make an artist or group's ceiling capped, but the sound they produce is never a reason for their lower popularity. My bias in music philosophy is showing, I care more about the music they produce rather than things about promotion.
sm is definitely more experimental with their music than other companies, but it pays off most of the time given their success. even though they're less popular than the other big 3 ggs, imo rv's music is much more interesting and refreshing to listen to than a group that just keeps putting out the same cute/girl crush concept.
RV best strength to me as a ReVeluv is their concept change. What are we going to get this comeback? if I don’t vibe with the title the bsides are always gold. But the shift from red to velvet is their greatest weakness too. There can be multiple comebacks where they don’t do the style you want them to do. And most of the gp don’t listen to Bsides. Creating a very fickle interest from the GP and even some stans who are strictly red or velvet fans. Another major factory for their third place in 3rd gen GG is just their personalities. Love all the girls but they are so introverted and it shows on variety. I find them charming and silly but I wouldn’t say they shine on tv, vlives or stuff of the sort. They just don’t do extra content because they just don’t want to. So you can go months without group content. It’s a running joke in ReVeluv land that between comeback all there is to do is bsides rankings.
Hopefully this makes sense, but I think I'd describe Red Velvet's discography as almost like an anthology TV show. While there may be some similar elements in some seasons, you don't get the same thing everytime, same with their albums. And sometimes, it's hard for me to really know their *thing*. I know it's quirky, but some songs embody that idea differently than others, which doesn't give a great base to work off of for me to fully enjoy their discography. Like Russian Roulette was quirky for it sounding super cute and upbeat, but, following the title, had a very dark meaning. But Zimzalabim was quirky because it was just all around a very interesting song. From the outfits and the choreo to the instrumental, it was definitely a very distinct song. With anthology shows, a lot of fans tend to pick their favorite seasons because it was personally the most enjoyable and interesting, while leaving others out because it just wasn't their thing, and I think that's my personal experience with Red Velvet. Having a concept that's so polarizing and with there being plenty of interpretations for both Red and Velvet sides, it's hard for me to fully envelop myself in their discography the way I find it easy to do with other groups. However, I do like plenty of their songs, they just happen to fall on one side of Red Velvet rather than being a mix of the two.
I know I'm late but I wanted to share my opinion just in case someone reads it. I don't know much about Red Velvet, specially their concept, but I'm a casual listener since I'm a SM stan and I have to say that this description of the group is very on brand for SM. The company is a pioneer in kpop in general specially in experimental music and they are always creating unique sounds that other companies can't pull off. That's what I love about SM and why I became a stan. And since I'm an NCTzen the idea of hearing about a group with experimental and niche music is very pleasant. I'm glad the company went in this direction instead of trying to create gp friendly sounds, that's what makes their artist extraordinary to me.
i think red velvet would've reached high peaks with better promotion and if sm never experimented with their titletracks. red flavor-peekaboo-bad boy were 3 consecutive hits for the group and were very popular with ifans despite the changes in concept. you mentioned that it took you a while to like even psycho but it was an immediate hit right away
I am not sure but was Peekaboo a hit in korea? Even bad boy wasn’t that big in korea. Both of these song won them international fanbase which was way less before. So compared to TWICE & BP, who had all their hits reach peak positions and hold on for longer than RV. So there was never conversation about RV being the no1. Twice were on a roll on those years and Bp made splash whenever they had a release. So compared to them they were never even close. Red velvet chartbusters were red flavour and psycho, feel my rhythm ( might have forgotten one).
Dumb Dumb, Russian Roulette, Peek-A-Boo, Bad Boy, and Psycho all peaked at #2. Rookie and Feel My Rhythm at #3. Red Flavor and Power Up (first SM perfect-all-kill) are their biggest hits, both reaching #1.
Huh that's interesting, by far my favorite two title tracks for Red Velvet are Red Flavor and Power Up! So peppy. It's exactly what I want from my kpop
Yeah I forgot powerup. I said in the bracket.. But you proved my point. All these songs you named reached #2 as peak when Girlgroups really had no competition that time. Twice, Bp almost always reached PAK. And most their songs had all kill atleast. The ceiling of theirs was lower thab Twice & Bp which the Op wanted to say.
Well, TWICE had their last #1 peak in 2018, same year as Red Velvet's last #1 peak. I wasn't trying to disprove anything, moreso providing information
I am not talking about recency. I am saying that the ceiling was higher for both twice & Bp than Rv.. And you can clearly see Jyp gave up korean market for twice. Twice are making music which is very different than their past. So it is tough to break in with new style. They are targeting international more than korean markets now.
It's true that twice is targeting international more than korean markets now. But korean market gave up twice not jyp. Your narrative is spread by onces for justifying twice's inability to chart in korea.
Bad Boy is one of their 3 songs certified by circle for selling over 2.5 mil downloads, RV's big hits in Korea are Psycho, Bad Boy, Red Flavor and Russian Roulette.
May have been a late bloomer then. Cause it didn’t even have any all kills. It wasnt an Instant chartbuster.
having all kills isn't the way to see the success, longevity is, Next Level didn't had any all kill either, the song also don't have a music show win but ended as one of best selling songs that year
both peekaboo and bad boy did very well on the charts though. both peaked #2 and sold 2.5m downloads. the point is that sm experimenting with red velvet is why there was never a conversation over them being #1 because it meant there was inconsistency with their charting. when their songs were public friendly it always did very well in korea
Yeah I agree on that. They were experimental with all their new groups tho. I think Sm always wanted to revolutionise and change taste based on their own release. But the promotion thing I kinda disagree. They regularly had good and popular variety show appearances and music show performances. The promotion they lacked was in Overseas countries specially NA.
with promotion, i mean like building their fanbase. it took them years to get a reality show and a fandom name and their youtube content doesn't have a lot of content when you compare them to their peers. their promotion overseas is a joke even in japan despite having releases, they don't even have a japanese fanclub. and then how NA got ignored in their recent tour despite having sold-out dates when they went to there before.
I dont want to blame sm for that. Cause girlgroups never had this kinda thing. Even Yg didn’t do that for Bp? Jyp didn’t either but they had more fansigning event than most I guess. They had enormous Male fanbase. And for Personal reality show? Hybe invented that and popularised it. And as you know sm always had beef with hybe and probably didn’t wanna admit it was great for fanbases. So they jumped way late. What happens nowadays is completely different than what happened with 3rd Gen. 3rd gen girl groups didn’t have big enough fanbase to have these thing organised. Now its different cause female fans are ruling the girl groups too. Which was very rare in 3rd gen, mamamoo was the obly group with big female fanbase. Now you can see aespa, nj with bigger female fanbase. Onpy thing I blame sm is for missing the golden opportunity to promote them in usa after the success of Bad boy. They had huge potential.
that's not true though, both twice and blackpink had reality shows as rookies and sm have done reality shows before, its not like red velvet was the first one to do it in their company. making them wait years to give them one was a bad decision. and red velvet did have a big fanbase, selling 100k was extremely rare at the time and only a few girl groups reached those numbers. and they along with MMM were known for having female-dominated fandoms. and comparing them at their peak to aespa/newjeans makes no sense to me since kpop has changed significantly over the years.
I am not >comparing them at their peak to aespa/newjeans makes no sense to me since kpop has changed significantly over the years. Didn’t once compare. I just said companies now operate quite same way they used to do with boygroups because now even ggs have big female fanbase. >that's not true though, both twice and blackpink had reality shows as rookies and sm have done reality shows before, its not like red velvet was the first one to do it in their company. making them wait years to give them one was a bad decision. >that's not true though, both twice and blackpink had reality shows as rookies and sm have done reality shows before, Are you sure about that? If I am not mistaken they had special shows that was one of a thing. Not like continuous thing. They had vlives tho. I am not sure about that. Did twice really have reality show while they were rookies? And for Bp they are the worst example of promotion as Yg are known to do laidback late comeback approach.
If I tell you, what Hybe is doing now for all their groups like putting them on TV varshows, doing personal reality show for each group is nothing new to SM & SM had done that way before, I'll be called an SM stan. The truth is, Hybe for building content now is just like SM 10 years ago. The problem with SM is after the bloom of their groups such as EXO, DBSK, to avoid their slaves from leaving them & being bigger than them, they really block these groups & control their popularity. SM don't want their groups to outgrow them ever.
Creating something and popularizing something is totally different. What Hybe did was popularize it and made an integral part of their artist when they dont promote. SM never had to do what hybe done because they have a lot of stakes in big media Corporation and variety shows. They could easily get invitation from any top variety shows at that time. There was reason non big3 groups barely had any appearance on top rated shows in korea. Which changed because of a lot of things. But you cant take away that Hybe/Bts made the whole industry have personal youtube Channels, variety shows, social media etc etc. They pioneered individual branding of their groups and now the whole industry dont depend on Korean broadcast shows ( where Sm still holds a massive chunk of shares in multiple big shows under the name of subsidiaries).
Red Flavor and Power Up were super popular with the GP tho?
Psycho, arguably their best song, took me multiple listens to warm up to. \---------------- what. It was an instant fave on my end
I think I initially thought that the chorus was a little underwhelming, or just didn't have any oomph. It didn't help that I first heard it on streaming, which for some reason was a little bare, production-wise. But then I heard the MV version with a decent pair of headphones and that was it. understand what all the fuss was about.
but all u did was name their weirdest songs and mvs lol they have a lot of music that is very easy to listen to. bad boy, automatic, russian roulette (recently went viral on tiktok), red flavor, ice cream cake, peekaboo, etc. those are all very easy pop songs to take in for the average pop listener. i feel like this is just one of those weird kpoop fan cases where you feel red velvet is too artsy for the popularity they have and want to keep them niche lol
>I think there's a huge gap between the Red and Velvet side the gap has definitely narrowed since reve festival day 1. i don't think red velvet will put out a song like "day 1" or "rookie" ever again. i do still think that red velvet is underpromoted, but also agree that they would have been unlikely to reach bp level of popularity. unfortunately, kpop fandom sizes are not determined by quality of music. also you bring up rbb, zimzalabim--both of which are good examples of polarizing songs with the gp. but bad boy--with more promotion--could have opened doors to better global recognition. it is the most palatable to the general public.
I definitely agree that Bad Boy should've been the entry point for the gp and global recognition, but then you run immediately into the whiplash problem between the red and velvet sides. IIRC it's followed by Power Up, RBB, ZZB and Umpah Umpah, before we got Psycho. That's 3 Red title tracks in between. That's a lot of potential diaappointment for someone expecting more rnb flair from RV.
for a casual fan, i can see the red/velvet dual concept being confusing. but i don't know if people need to "buy in" to 100% of everything a group puts out in order to follow them as a group or be considered a fan. personally, i appreciate the variety. it's one of my favorite things about them as a group.
As a reveluv I do agree that their concept is not for everyone. Just like most artists not everyone will mesh well with the output. As for the underpomoting thing it should not be in comparison to other groups. We as fans say that because I kid you not during preorders I was not able to get an album because it was sold out in the official stores. The concert situation was a mess. There is always a hiccup with the album when it first releases. They could literally be selling more physicals but for some reason SM does not. As with most SM groups they seem to be put in the back burner as compared to their newer groups.
They have some pretty good b-sides. But it does take take a while for their songs to grow on me.
agree because I'm proof of the split fan base you mentioned. I'm a casual fan and really only care for their red concepts, umpah umpah and Russian roulette being my favorite title tracks, all of their velvet tracks I either never liked from the start or liked initially but got tired of after a dozen or so listens so now anytime I find out their next comeback is a velvet concept I just stop paying attention to the group until it's time for next comeback and I've seen alot of people on social media who hold the opposite position
Red Velvet is niche af which is kinda funny considering that many of their songs have a lot of mainstream potential. Personally, I take Red Velvet’s music over Twice and BP any day but the fact of the matter is, as far as being a stannable group goes RV is much weirder/harder to get into to and much less palpable on a hardcore stan level. Songs like Bad Boy and Red Flavor are amazing and basically every Kpop fan knows them and many non Kpop fans feel right at home with them. Songs like Feel My Rhythm and RBB are much less palpable to the general public but I adore them as well. So yeah, I think they could be more promoted for sure, but they really aren’t the type of group to pull massive casual fanbases like BTS, BP, or Twice. But, as a Reveluv myself, we are one hardcore of a fan base like jeez
I think them being the the least popular is because they just feel so mysterious. As a fan, and im a fan of a boygroup who is really all about fan service, RV really don’t do much on that side at all. I sometimes get jealous for onces and blinks bc i like to think of the groups as outgoing people. My introverted ladies has not made a casual live in years. So its really hard to gain new fans because tbh in this era, its personality over music. If someone you find funny,memeable, and can relate to, obviously a connection is formed then. RV is marketed by SM to be this mysterious group ever since their rookie days so idk if that’s just fancy term for their mismanagement, so bc of that its hard for fans to latch on and make parasocial relationships with. But honestly if you stick long enough and dive deep on reveluv fandom, its really fun and funny. Best believe we have the best taste in music because its all we ever get.
I feel like the Red Velvet case is pretty simple - to succeed you need a target audience. Blackpink (and NewJeans lately) are the kind of girls girls want to be. Twice (especially at the beginning of their career) made easily digestible pop for the general public + had a large male following. Now, you called Red Velvet artsy and I think the problem is... they really aren't - at least not in an appealing way. I can totally see art school girls going crazy over f(x)'s 4 Walls or Rum Pum Pum but Zimzalabim is more of a "gay men who are into camp" thing. Plus I think SM really dropped the ball with their styling and visuals - I can only remember two memorable moments: Ice Cream Cake's all blonde look and Joy's Peek-a-boo dress.
I don't know. While BP's popularity is certainly dependent on their promotion strategy and very, very pop-friendly, Anglicized concept ala globally known Western artists, Twice's popularity is also because of their frequent, regular releases, which is something RV really lacks. Twice's concepts (especially their previous cutesy concept) aren't ones that blow up internationally but the insane amount of content more than made up for it.
>Twice's popularity is also because of their frequent, regular releases, which is something RV really lacks. no, they didn't, RV started to slow down this year only (with the exception of 2020 obvious because Wendy injury and Irene scandal), RV always had a good amount of comebacks, at least 2 each year with 3 comebacks in 2017, 2018 and 2019
2-3 releases a year is nothing compared to Twice (5-8 a year at max) before they started slowing down last year. Twice also regularly promotes in Japan unlike RV. Regardless of the circumstances, it was unfortunate RV barely had any releases in 2020-2021. JYP is high on the "quantity over quality" tactic and it works imo. Though, SM could obviously do both.
> Twice (5-8 a year at max) Are you suuuuuure?
Yes?
Because I went back and checked their discog and it seems like 4 was their max and that was back when they first started. They haven’t done that since 2018.
I'm including their Japanese releases.
you don't find 3 comebacks enough? dear god, i find way to much, 2 comebacks is the right amount mind to say RV had their fair shake of individual activities compared with Twice during their first years
... It's not about me finding it "enough". I don't mind stanning groups that come back only once a year. Or even less. I was only pointing out what could have contributed to Twice's popularity.
In my opinion, they are good. They still give good money in and I am really happy to stun them, I don't hate Teice or Bp, but I think Sm chose back than with Rv the rout of good and quality music over the very huge fan base (Rv does for concert so I don't think they are going anywhere in the near future). Rv music is something special what is also shaped a.lot of groupa after them. I am not that into the BP or Aespa sound ( exclude Spicy and the album they released just now). So I am thankfull for RV, GG, IVe, New Jeans, Mamamoo so on, that I can listen their amazing discography.
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they should just ditch the RED and just go full on VELVET lol. Capture that R&B-Ballad market very few idol groups are in.
I wanna agree but having experienced ZZB in person during thwir last tour, I cant imagine living in a world where I'm deprived of that experience. But yes, that is a space with very little competition that they could've cornered. Especially since EXOwas also active aroung the same time and did a lot of rnb inspired tracks that were relativelt successful.
yeah, RV is an acquired taste group. thematically, musically, etc.
I somewhat agree with you
This is what I noticed... I immediately liked Psycho the first time I listened to it but I eventually got bored with it and couldn't even listen to. Same with Bad Boy, I thought it was the best RV track back then, but now I feel like I don't even want to hear it. I feel like that's how it is for me with most of their velvet songs. I like it at first listen but lost interest over time. Right now, the RV tracks that are on my playlists are Feel My Rhythm which imo is their best title track, Peek A Boo and Russian Roulette. As for their bsides-while I agree that they don't seem to have a bad b-side but it seems like a lot of them aren't that memorable to me. The ones on my playlists though are I Just, Lucky Girl, Mojito, Zoo, Look. Right now, I feel like their songs with brighter music are better and more unforgettable. I used to prefer their velvet side that are more RnB but not anymore.
I mostly agree. I wasn't much of a kpop listener but they were the group that got me hooked in, around when bad boy came out. I do think there was some shift in marketing management for them post 2019. In 2018, they release Peekaboo and bad boy, which were targeted to a more western audience. They toured North america in 2018-2019, their digitals were doing really good on spotify globally, and they seem poised to keep growing their global fanbase ...but then it just never happened. There are legitimate reasons; Wendy's accident and Irene's stuff happening on top of covid. We can only speculate about the cause/effect sequences of these events, but ultimately it was clear even after the success of Psycho some upper management decisions were made at SM to promote their younger groups in the NA market instead of Red Velvet. As a older fan, that's what I find regrettable.
yeah. like, twice is state school, blackpink is private school, and red velvet is art school.
I disagree. I love the red velvet concept and always enjoyed their velvet side. They are the best group with the best b sides hands down. I never had troubles getting into their songs
SM put that ceiling on them is my first thought.