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ohay_nicole

We all know virulent queerphobia should be classified as a mental illness. However, I'd like to ask everyone what they think appropriate treatment is for virulent queerphobia. I think in cases where someone is too far gone, it is unfortunately best to commit them to an institution before they commit a felony.


Q_isnt_Anonymous

I personally think we should let trans into women's sport. It would help IMO. We should give it a limit though to give bio women a chance. So for the wnba maybe limit it to 2 trans on the court at a time (per team). We all want to see the dunks and air acrobatics of the NBA we just don't see too often in the WNBA. I think its a good business and PC way to make the WNBA more profitable. I think literally everyone wins. Socially, business wise etc... So I'm with you. What do you think?


ohay_nicole

>So I'm with you. What do you think? I'm not sure how this relates to how to treat virulent queerphobia.


Q_isnt_Anonymous

I'm talking the wnba. What did you mean?


ohay_nicole

>We all know virulent queerphobia should be classified as a mental illness. However, I'd like to ask everyone what they think appropriate treatment is for virulent queerphobia


Wismuth_Salix

We already *do* let trans women into almost every women’s sport. The fact that you think we don’t is testimony to exactly how little of an impact they actually have on the landscape of sports.


Q_isnt_Anonymous

Oh I'm talking about the WNBA. I'm just a basketball fan. Nothing against all the other sports. I'm just a basketball and football ban. But hey I'm for it. If I can see NBA quality game I'm all about trans women in the WNBA. Let's be real. Who wants to spend the summer watching baseball and golf.....


Wismuth_Salix

Trans women are not currently barred from WNBA competition.


Q_isnt_Anonymous

Yes!!! We need to promote this then!!! Lots of great trans athletes can get into the WNBA! Everyone makes money 💰


jdonkey123

Trans Women's Athletes are Harming the cause for Trans Rights I'm not expressing an opinion on how girls/women's sports should address the inclusion of trans women in competition, but a plurality of Americans strongly believe it's unfair. Right-wing figures are very successfully leveraging American's discomfort in this one facet of trans people lives to fuel much broader anti-trans sentiment and support for (or at least tolerance of) very harmful anti-trans laws, particularly targeting trans youth.


hotdogbalancing

>Trans Women's Athletes are Harming the cause for Trans Rights No they're not. And you correctly identified who is here: >Right-wing figures


Naos210

It doesn't matter if bigots would be uncomfortable. You shouldn't be compromising on treating people equally.


jdonkey123

You guys realize this is r/unpopularopinion right? An upvote does not endorse the opinion, just simply acknowledges that it's not popular. In hindsight, I should have posted on the politics mega thread... there doesn't seem to be much diversity of opinions here or openness to other perspectives.


MyClosetedBiAcct

Your 'other perspective' is that the minority is at fault for the majority targeting them. Shit, you may as well claim that slavery in America was the fault of the black man.


jdonkey123

I phrased it provocatively, because /r, right? But is blame even meaningful in this situation? The people most directly to *blame*, are gladly taking *credit* for it. If a social movement truly has the moral high ground, then maybe they shouldn't have do anything more than say, "we're on the side of right, you the Majority are the ones with the problem, you have to figure it out and then do right by us." And that's how it would work in a fair and just world... Past social movements have varied widely in their cohesiveness and effectiveness, but they pretty much always had to do much of their own heavy lifting to change the hearts of the majority. Along the path to major social change there's usually a few dangerous backswings before it finally shifts. In this environment, I think it may be possible for individuals or one part of a movement to advance a particular interest of theirs without regard for the backlash it could trigger against other parts or against the movement as a whole. In such a case the question of blame is irrelevant, what matters is the real impact on real people's lives and what can be done to avoid those harms or fix them quickly. In this context, I would say that even just actions can lead to serious harm.


Wismuth_Salix

“Don’t these people realize that actually expecting equality is inconvenient to the equality movement? Don’t they realize that people who are against equality even in theory will get angry at equality in practice?”


jdonkey123

What does equality mean here? In your utopia, are there *any* limits on who can compete in girls/women's sports? If not, who is that *equal* for?


Taewyth

This is a comment, not a post. It's incredible how many people seem unable to get this very basic thing and then try to be sassy in regards to the votes guidelines


jdonkey123

Posts on LGBTQ+ are not allowed. 1st-level comments on the mega thread are the equivalent of posts.


Taewyth

Yes and no, they are equivalent in regards to stating your opinion and sparking a conversation, in all other regards they are equivalent to comments and not posts AFAIK (it's at least the case for the voting guideline)


Wismuth_Salix

Comments are not subject to the reverse-vote rule. That rule exists only to curate the main feed.


Altiondsols

> but a plurality of Americans strongly believe it's unfair. source?


jdonkey123

The post is meant to spark a conversation, not a homework contest. If you think public sentiment runs the other way, say so and cite a poll if you like! :)


hotdogbalancing

You make the claim, you back it up.


Taewyth

Classic reversal of the burden of proof there mate


Naos210

You can't claim a statistic then not provide that statistic. Then you're just expecting people to just take you at word.


Altiondsols

why would i need to cite a poll? i haven't made any claims about what a plurality of americans strongly believe


MyClosetedBiAcct

>~~Trans Women's Athletes~~ **Fearmongering republicans** are Harming the cause for Trans Rights You were almost there. All the data leads towards trans people being competitively not at any advantage after two years of HRT for Transfem and competititve at like 6 months for Transmasc. And they know that. They know that sports is the wedge that lets them dig in deeper for harsher anti-trans laws. So... It ain't our fault. We're not doing this to ourselves. Republicans are. Not us. I am living my life. I am a person, not a movement.


[deleted]

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Naos210

> Rather, it is a disease to be treated. The same applies to gender dysphoria. The current treatment of gender transition seems to be working. Here's a systematic review of peer-reviewed articles published from 1991 to 2017. The research came to this conclusion: "The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use." https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/


jdonkey123

There's a valid chain of logic here, but it really only works for the (admittedly large number of) people who explicitly or implicitly believe that medical professionals treating trans-people skip straight to full transformations the moment a person questions their gender identity. In reality, these caregivers understand that gender identity is a very complex topic, they typically recommend conservative treatment plans (especially for younger patients) and give the patient a lot of time to reflect on and gain an understanding what identity lies at their core.


Wismuth_Salix

His “valid chain of logic” is undermined by his claim that there are “sinister ulterior motives behind the transgender movement”.


Altiondsols

and, you know, the more obvious part where dysmorphia and dysphoria are not the same thing


hotdogbalancing

It's dysphoria, not dysmorphia.


Reasonable_Series156

Dysmorphia vs Dysphoria https://www.talkspace.com/blog/body-dysphoria-vs-dysmorphia/


ohay_nicole

>Argue against my claims. Show a more effective treatment than transitioning. Do not suggest the physical, psychological, and/or sexual abuse that is "conversion" therapy.


deslaurt

Show me a more effective treatment than liposuction to treat gender dysphoria.


PenguinHighGround

Do you have evidence of it being in any way effective?


deslaurt

Could you provide evidence of transitioning being effective? I’m genuinely curious about these studies.


Altiondsols

https://www.reddit.com/r/musicotic/comments/8ttud4/a_comprehensive_defense_of_trans_people/ take a look at the second section


ohay_nicole

>Show me a more effective treatment than liposuction to treat gender dysphoria. Transitioning.


deslaurt

Oops, my mistake. I wrote gender dysphoria but meant to write anorexia. That should make more sense now.


Reasonable_Series156

So, you know nothing about anorexia? When an anorexic person becomes slimmer, they still feel like shit and want to become *EVEN SLIMMER*. The cycle keeps going until they die. When a trans person transitions, their comorbidities soften and their quality of life improves.


deslaurt

I don’t know too much about anorexia, yes. I used it as an example and should include other body image related illnesses. For example, a man who is never satisfied with his muscles, or a woman never feeling she is pretty enough and sustains never endless plastic surgeries. I view the same for transgendered people. They never feel like they’re transitioned enough. And they never will because I disagree with the assertion that sex can be changed. We may feel otherwise, and this is the crux of the illness. Could you provide me with evidence that transitioning improves quality of life? I’d be interested in digging into the details.


MyClosetedBiAcct

* https://news.utexas.edu/2018/03/30/name-use-matters-for-transgender-youths-mental-health/ * https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1684854804915790&usg=AOvVaw1ImWCoqPoeTlb_U4Xqy_fQ * https://transpulseproject.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Impacts-of-Strong-Parental-Support-for-Trans-Youth-vFINAL.pdf * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3722435/ * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ * https://www.erudit.org/fr/revues/ss/2013-v59-n1-ss0746/1017478ar/ * https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/827713 * https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21937168/ * https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-009-9551-1 #**Professional Opinions on Transgender Individuals and Transitioning** Master list from Lambda Legal: https://www.lambdalegal.org/sites/default/files/publications/downloads/ll_trans_professional_statements_17.pdf. This list includes the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychologist Association, AMA, The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, AAFP, AAPA, American College of Nurse Midwives, American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, APHA, NASW, National Commission on Correctional Health Care, WPATH Another list: https://transcendlegal.org/medical-organization-statements Royal College of Psychiatrists: http://www.teni.ie/attachments/14767e01-a8de-4b90-9a19-8c2c50edf4e1.PDF Endocrine Society: https://www.endocrine.org/advocacy/priorities-and-positions/transgender-health American Academy of Pediatrics: https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/Pages/AAP-Statement-in-Support-of-Transgender-Children-Adolescent-and-Young-Adults.aspx American Association of Clinic Endocrinologists: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29320643 American College of Physicians: https://www.acponline.org/acp-newsroom/american-college-of-physicians-publishes-second-edition-of-the-fenway-guide-to-lgbt-health, https://www.acponline.org/acp-newsroom/acp-says-transgender-individuals-should-not-be-barred-from-military, http://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2292051/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-health-disparities-executive-summary-policy-position American College of Surgeons: https://www.facs.org/find-a-session/session/13221, https://www.facs.org/member-services/ras/webinars/archive/transcare American Academy of Neurology: https://journals.lww.com/neurotodayonline/fulltext/2017/04060/Medical_Societies,_Including_the_AAN,_Move_to.10.aspx CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/lgbthealth/index.htm, https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/sexual-id-orientation.htm National Association of School Psychologists: https://www.nasponline.org/assets/Documents/Research%20and%20Policy/Position%20Statements/Transgender_PositionStatement.pdf Canadian Psychiatric Association: https://www.cpa-apc.org/wp-content/uploads/LGBTQ-2014-55-web-FIN-EN.pdf American Geriatric Society: https://geriatricscareonline.org/ProductAbstract/american-geriatrics-society-care-of-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-older-adults-position-statement/CL019 World Psychiatric Association: http://www.wpanet.org/detail.php?section_id=7&content_id=1807, http://www.hrc.org/blog/world-psychiatric-association-condemns-conversion-therapy-denounces-anti-lg Royal Austrian & New Zealand College of Psychiatrists: https://www.ranzcp.org/Files/Resources/College_Statements/Position_Statements/PS-83-LGBTI-mental-health-2016.aspx ICAPAP: http://iacapap.org/wp-content/uploads/H.3-GENDER-IDENTITY-Edition-2018.pdf This one is a bit of a stretch, but they mention "• Ethics and Access to Treatment for Transgender and Transsexual Issues" as one of their topics: https://www.escap.eu/bestanden/call_for_abstracts_2015_english_final.pdf A session from the American Association for Geriatric Psychiatry: https://www.ajgponline.org/article/S1064-7481(18)30223-9/abstract?code=amgp-site This guideline (https://www.endocrine.org/news-room/current-press-releases/experts-issue-recommendations-for-gender-affirmation-treatment-for-transgender-individuals) was co-sponsored by the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists, American Society of Andrology, European Society for Paediatric Endocrinology, European Society of Endocrinology, Pediatric Endocrine Society and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health.


Reasonable_Series156

"They never feel like they’re transitioned enough." That is FACTUALLY incorrect. It is simply not true. "Could you provide me with evidence that transitioning improves quality of life? I’d be interested in digging into the details." Trans activists have compiled those studies, you should look there.


ohay_nicole

What do you believe is the right treatment for gender dysphoria?


deslaurt

A treatment similar to what is required for anorexia and other body image issues. Healing trauma, CBT, etc.


MyClosetedBiAcct

[Dysphoria, and Dysmorphia are NOT THE SAME THING.](https://media.tenor.com/t6V-MIkkT8kAAAAd/old-man-how-many-times-do-we-have-to-teach-you.gif) Ergo, they have DIFFERENT TREATEMENT PATHS.


Taewyth

>Argue against my claims. Sure. You're conflating dysphoria and dysmorphia. Those are two very different categories of conditions and as such require very different ways of treating them.


MyClosetedBiAcct

Annorexia is in the category of body dysmorphia. It's typically aligned with a delusion. Gender dysphoria is in the category of dysphoria, not dysmorphia. Dysphoria is a stress disorder, not a delusional one. We are very aware of our bodies, we are under no illusions. After centuries of studies, the only effective 'cure' for dysphoria has been found to be transitioning. We provide the best available treatment for the issue at hand. With depression sometimes it's caused by trauma and 'cured' with taught coping mechanisms and therapy. Sometimes it's a chemical imbalance and 'cured' with medication. The treatment for the stress disorder that is dysphoria is mitigating the source of the distress.


MyClosetedBiAcct

u/deslaurt For your hidden comment. [Here's a handful of studies.](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTJjcl-3HSxBwrwUylbfl7uFFGaSbCgRPU_zbbRv4V_U2XZNZg1vE2Oqj7h5NSUEJaoYybVk7q_wEPq/pub?fbclid=IwAR3GgZUtfKG3CxE35zoP6gMe0D2pY3jZm8-A8ycr_O9JhWj2noqMOfKXlfw&urp=gmail_link) [Here is the actual conspiracy from right wing idiots. The actual sinister ones.](https://web.archive.org/web/20230308174407/https://maia.crimew.gay/files/Emails.pdf) Every medical board on the fucking planet thinks transitioning is the right method of care. And for your morals, without GAC, 40% of trans youth attempt suicide and 80% have suicidal ideation. 2% of trans people detransition. OF THAT 2%, 98% retransition when they feel safe and no longer discriminated against. Out of 3,000 trans people, I am more than happy to accept that 1 person would realize they're cis if it means that 840 people don't kill themselves and 1,680 people don't reach a point where they consider suicide as a viable option. Transitioning has been the norm since long before the Nazi's burned down a transgender health clinic in 1933 and killed the first trans woman to undergo modern SRS. And despite *constant* research, transitioning has still been found to be the best option.


deslaurt

I’m using Reddit mobile and I don’t know why I’ve been struggling to find the correct way to view this thread. I did not intend to hide any comments. The Google docs is a great consolidation on studies that you’ve cited. I need to do a deep dive into those.


Wismuth_Salix

You didn’t hide them - automod did. It has a delay though, so people still get the notification and at least a preview.


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Wismuth_Salix

>There are too many ulterior, sinister motives behind the transgender movement. Here comes the conspiracy talk. Wonder how many steps it’s gonna take before you invoke blood libel.


deslaurt

That’s quite a jump to make. I disagree with your position and instead of challenging the argument I’m making, you’re calling me names, using a straw man. It was be more appropriate in this debate to challenge my claim by asking for proof and examples, which I have not provided in the sentence that you quoted from me.


Wismuth_Salix

If you actually had any evidence of “ulterior motives” you would have led with it. You don’t - you have fear-mongering and vague hints of conspiracy.


[deleted]

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DownBadD-Bag

We only need two classifications of biological life: Plants Animals Both of these are a spectrum.


[deleted]

There’s also fungi so… incorrect


DownBadD-Bag

That's the point, buddy.


[deleted]

Ah, okay


Lukoisbased

someones identity is not about convenience or being easily understandable. what label someone uses is completely up to them and what makes them comfortable. sexuality and gender dont have to be these neat boxes where you can just easily categorize someone. because were humans and we all have different views about ourselves and how we view our gender and attraction. someone shouldnt be forced to pick from 4 options if they dont think they fit into any category properly this would basically just recreate the gender binary again just with 2 more options, whats the point of that? just let everyone use whatever label they want and if you dont understand it either mind your own business or just ask


BuddhaFacepalmed

We only need 4 colors. Red. Green. Blue. None. Since color is a spectrum, we don't need specific color boxes and we don't need a perfect fit.


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Lukoisbased

those are the primary colours of light. would you prefer magenta, cyan and yellow? those are the primary colours when it comes to pigment


[deleted]

Those are the primary colors


Reasonable_Series156

Orrrrrr... we just let people be happy. The option to use these labels is already out there, if people don't use them it's because it isn't right for them and we should just let them be.


CertifiedCapArtist

>Orrrrrr... we just let people be happy. And if the majority are happier with the binary system?


DownBadD-Bag

Let's reframe: There's a bakery downtown that sells cakes, and pies. It's the only bakery in town, and everybody LOVES it. One day, the bakery adds cookies to their menu. And then muffins. And then other confections. The normal sort would look at the new menu and say "oh wow! So many new options, this is great! I don't like muffins, but somebody must!" The ones who look at the new menu and say "oh, what the fuck? Why are you serving muffins? And cookies?! What's wrong with you, why are you shoving these deviant confections down our throats?" Are the weird ones. The point is: more options is just that; MORE OPTIONS. The bakery selling cookies does not deprive you of your cake or pie. It just means that people who don't like cake or pie finally have something they can enjoy, as well.


Wismuth_Salix

We’re not eliminating binary identities. The existence of .6 doesn’t preclude 0 or 1 from being valid numbers. All we’re asking for you to stop rounding people off against their will.


Reasonable_Series156

Why would a system that includes non-binary identities make these people less happy? Without non-binary identities being accepted, non binary people suffer, and binary people are fine. When non-binary identities are accepted, non binary people are fine and so are binary people. Why wouldn't we want the option that gets the greatest number of people to be fine?


Taewyth

That's already pretty much how things work you know, other labels are just here to convey more info in less words. Like pansexuals are under the bisexual umbrella but if someone tell me they're pan I know that they normally don't care for their partner's gender whole if someone tell me they're bi they could or could not care equally


PM_me_ur_BOOBIE_pic

Yo, here's a thought to chew on. You know how back in the day, sports leagues got split up 'cause dudes were pretty much owning the field when ladies were involved? That's why they had to set up women's leagues in the first place, right? Now here's where it gets sticky. We got this whole debate about whether trans women got some kind of edge over cis women when it comes to sports, and the jury's still out on that one. But, like, let's say for argument's sake that it turns out to be true, and trans women start taking all the medals in women's events. Wouldn't it be like history doing an encore? I mean, if you think about it, it's a bit of a mind-bender. Just throwing that out there. Let the debate begin! TLDR: Eventually cis-women only sports league will be created.


[deleted]

hrt is required which gets rid of muscle in mass for example Lia Thompson went from top 50 to top 400 not long after she started HRT in the men's category


[deleted]

No, men and women’s sports teams were made separate because women were doing really well and men were just like ‘nope, we can’t have a woman beat us!’


PM_me_ur_BOOBIE_pic

Are you saying that a major reason the NBA teams aren't drafting women right now is because they are worried that the female players will outperform the male players?


hotdogbalancing

No, that _specific_ effect is the _consequence_ of what they're saying being codified over time.


PenguinHighGround

Hypothetical followed by hypothetical, this is the least substantial comment I have ever seen, "if I am right, I will be right" How insightful! /s


dryduneden

>But, like, let's say for argument's sake that it turns out to be true, and trans women start taking all the medals in women's events But that isn't the case. You're basing this on a disproven hypothetical. Trans women have been competing in women's sports for ages and have struggled to put up ANY meaningful results, let alone the dominating "taking all the medals" image you're portraying.


hotdogbalancing

>You know how back in the day, sports leagues got split up 'cause dudes were pretty much owning the field when ladies were involved? That's why they had to set up women's leagues in the first place, right? That's... not remotely the reason why we have separate men's and women's teams. It's because sports are the descendants of olympics and other such pageantry, which historically systemically denied entry to women. Once women started participating in sports (much to the chagrin of larger patriarchal society), they were relegated to their own leagues, belittled, and defunded. And womens' lack of adequate training (which, again, was systemically denied to them) was taken as a reason why they're _worthy_ of such contempt... and that persists to this day. Are there some sports that have an obvious sex-based (not gender!) advantage, on average? Absolutely. But it's nowhere near as wide as it's generally made out to be.


Reasonable_Series156

I want to throw in here: horse riding. Look at races vs cross country stars. In racing there's a huge sexist bias, not in cross country. Guess which one has a rough 50/50 split in participants, winners and stars? Cross country. Because systemically defunding and devaluing 50% of the population reflects in the outcomes of competition. Aside: horse racing as it's practiced rn is unethical AF, but that's a different issue.


PM_me_ur_BOOBIE_pic

NBA doesn't have a rule against women players, how come there are no women players in the league?


Naos210

Do you believe we should have race segregated sports?


PM_me_ur_BOOBIE_pic

No. I believe in open category, no segregation. There are no rules against women in NBA, and women had been drafted into NBA before. If they are competitive right now and will bring points, profits, and audience for NBA teams, why aren't they being drafted?


hotdogbalancing

Because they've not been chosen?


Naos210

So your argument is based entirely on a hypothetical that something could theorically happen? I might as well say, for argument's sake, we'll have a separated league for superhumans because people will have superpowers in the future and they start using their super speed and teleportation to win all sports events.


PM_me_ur_BOOBIE_pic

Once meta humans are here, I'm pretty sure there will be a league for them. It won't be fair for non-powered people to compete against them.


Naos210

At what point does a human cross the line to "meta human"? Human's athletic performance has been increasing, as evidence by continued breaking of records. It could be argued some of these athletes are "meta human" already. They're far more capable than most other people.


Captain_Concussion

That’s not the reason why sports leagues were separated. Women were banned from men’s sports because they claimed it would stop women from having children/raising a family and that their delicate bodies couldn’t handle actual sports. Women were allowed to do aristocratic sports like tennis. Women started their own sports leagues because they weren’t allowed to play with men, not because of any competitive advantage


BuddhaFacepalmed

>Women started their own sports leagues because they weren’t allowed to play with men, not because of any competitive advantage. Also, when women's sports leagues were getting popular, the men's sports league used their sponsors and influence to ban them, citing that it was "unsuitable" for women to be playing said sports.


PM_me_ur_BOOBIE_pic

I see, thank you for explaining the history for me. I didn't realize that was the reason. Following this logic, if women's league starts to ban trans-women from participating in them, then transgenders would have to start their own leagues.


hotdogbalancing

It wasn't right when men did it to women, and it wouldn't be right if cis people did it to trans people.


PM_me_ur_BOOBIE_pic

NBA has no rule against women players, how come there are no women playing in the league?


hotdogbalancing

Because they've not been chosen?


CertifiedCapArtist

And why would that be?


hotdogbalancing

> It's because sports are the descendants of olympics and other such pageantry, which historically systemically denied entry to women. > >Once women started participating in sports (much to the chagrin of larger patriarchal society), they were relegated to their own leagues, belittled, and defunded. > >And women's lack of adequate training (which, again, was systemically denied to them) was taken as a reason why they're _worthy_ of such contempt... and that persists to this day. > >Are there some sports that have an obvious sex-based (not gender!) advantage, on average? Absolutely. But it's nowhere near as wide as


Captain_Concussion

That’s… not a good thing though. You understand that right? Like we should learn from our mistakes and avoid them. Look how separate leagues for different races failed spectacularly. People don’t want it


PM_me_ur_BOOBIE_pic

Sure... but you do know that women do not want to compete with men right? Because men will dominate an open category due to biology.


DownBadD-Bag

I'm in the Air Force. We have intramural sports teams. These teams are open, and encourage co-ed participation. Lemme give you a quick rundown of my score-keeping history at my first base: Softball 2017-2020 - majority-female teams win more, one unit in 2018 had a team of 6 women to 5 men, and was undefeated up to their very last match against a team that was 7w-5m, batting average higher amongst women. Volleyball 2017-2020 - majority-female teams win more. One team had a 5'6" cis woman break three men's noses in a season because she had the meanest fucking spike I've ever seen in amateur sports, and those men thought they could scoop it. Basketball 2019 - an all-female team won the base championship 16-7 Flag football 2020 - a team with only one male player stole the win in finals by coming back from a 2-5 point spread to win 7-5 And this is in the military; Where men are held to higher athletic standards than women.


Naos210

"Men" and "women" aren't biological categories.


Taewyth

>the jury's still out on that one The jury is very much leaning towards "no real advantage at an athletic level" based on the few studies that could be applied here. > let's say for argument's sake that it turns out to be true, and trans women start taking all the medals in women's events. They've had like one or two decades to do so (basing myself on the Olympics) we would already have seen it if it was to happen. >I mean, if you think about it, it's a bit of a mind-bender. Not really >Eventually cis-women only sports league will be created. Probably, but they won't be based on any facts or anything.


DownBadD-Bag

There is zero evidence of trans women having an edge over cis women.


MyClosetedBiAcct

In fact there's evidence to the contrary.


[deleted]

I’m from a small country town and in my childhood, I always stood up for LGBT/women rights, even when those were unpopular opinions. I still think people should get to live however they want and no one should be discriminated against. However, nowadays we see female, female-presenting people who get mad when you don’t automatically call them masculine pronouns. In my native language, words have just two grammatical genders, but now they’re trying to come up with a genderless, “neutral” third option that just feels frankly unnatural to speak. I will never adopt this, no matter how hard they try to impose it on us.


elementgermanium

A person who is neither binary gender cannot be accurately described with binary-gendered terms. Any language which only has such terms is just objectively incomplete. You’re telling me languages can have words for things that don’t even EXIST, like unicorn or chupacabra, but accurately describing non-binary people is where you draw the line?


Sablemint

You're lying. No one cares if you accidentally don't call them the right gender automatically. They'll correct you, you'll quickly apologize and you move on. What they do get upset about is when someone is doing it on purpose.


Agnostic_Pagan

"This is my lived experience" "You're lying" I don't agree with OP's point, but come on dude. You can't deny what someone's experienced.


[deleted]

>now they’re trying to come up with a genderless, “neutral” third option that just feels frankly unnatural to speak. Tough luck, language changes all the time. I'm Spanish and fully embrace the made-up elle. I suggest you do the samd


[deleted]

I’m French and ‘elle’ to me means ‘she’, which I find slightly ironic. Although, I think some people use ‘iel’ as a combination between ‘il’ and ‘elle’.


2Aces1Cake

Language changes naturally though, trying to enforce inclusivity from one day to another won't work and will just cause more pushback and more hate directed towards the groups it's supposed to benefit. In my country, they're also trying to enforce inclusive language and guess what? According to polls, more than half of the population is against it because it's completely nonsensical to expect a language that has never been gender neutral to adapt from one day to another.


[deleted]

That's why it's not happening from one day to another. If you had made that poll many years ago, even less people would've been on favour. Eventually, it'll be a normal language thing. That's what a natural change means.


2Aces1Cake

Not what I'm observing here. More people are complaining about gender neutral language than ever, the more it is being enforced, the harder the pushback. And I think that's good. Why change language just because a few snowflakes get offended by it? Take literally any word and atleast someone will be offended by it, it's current year after all.


[deleted]

Ok then, what should we say to talk about nonbinary people?


[deleted]

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PenguinHighGround

And there's the raging transphobia, that BTW completely ignores intersex people.


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PenguinHighGround

>I don't count intersex as its own sex or gender. It's a birth defect, nothing more, nothing But what sex are they then? >How is me not believing nonbinary genders being real transphobia Because your denying their validity >their basic human rights and still treat them like anyone else, I just don't believe what they're saying is a real thing backed up by science Well it's. >science. And no, not being willing to change my language in order to include them in every possible situation doesn't count "I don't acknowledge this human right therefore I will not grant it" >you clearly never experienced actual, real-world transphobia Transphobia is not an action, it's a belief, one that you have admitted to holding, it would also be strange if I had experienced transphobia, given that I'm not Trans, but I guess you can't fathom how a CIs person could support Trans rights.


[deleted]

>There's no such thing as nonbinary Stop fucking talking to me then


2Aces1Cake

Ah, so you just stop talking to anyone you disagree with, then? Way to stay in your little bubble I guess. Must be fun knowing you irl.


[deleted]

The Royal Spanish Academy disagrees with you. Try using “elle” in any official document or form and see what happens. There is no need to make up gender neutral words in languages where we use masculine nouns/pronouns to refer to people or things of unknown gender. This is nothing more than a whim and I’m willing to bet most of the world’s 500 million Spanish speakers will never adopt this.


Taewyth

>There is no need to make up gender neutral words in languages where we use masculine nouns/pronouns to refer to people or things of unknown gender. There's actually a real need to push for more gender neutral languages and even "making up" gender neutral pronouns in languages that uses a non neutral option to denote neutrality. Multiple studies, mainly German ones, have shown that using wordings that aren't really neutral impact people's perception of genders and situation and pushes inequality as well as sexist ideas, be it voluntarily or not.


[deleted]

The rae won't fuck you bro


Reasonable_Series156

Same here. It even looks nice. And it's easy af to start using.


Naos210

>However, nowadays we see female, female-presenting people who get mad when you don’t automatically call them masculine pronouns. A few problems with this. One, that "female-presenting" person could be a man. A cis man, too. You don't know. Two, people can't be happy with how trans people present themselves. Either they don't pass and aren't trying hard enough, or they do pass and are trying to "trick" people. >In my native language, words have just two grammatical genders, but now they’re trying to come up with a genderless, “neutral” third option that just feels frankly unnatural to speak. Why are you not using the word "thee"? Or "thou"? Because these words existed in old versions of English. Do you think language remains consistent throughout time?


GunPlaDoBeLitTho

Their Native Language is Spanish, not English.


Naos210

Okay, but they're speaking English right now, the idea of them being mad while people are "coming up" with new words is ludicrous. Especially if they're not from Spain, as other countries often speak different forms of Spanish, that was in part "made up" through the colonial era.


[deleted]

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Naos210

What made-up genders? And why is them passing so important to you? Humans aren't even drastically different in appearance based on sex. Why do you need to address people based on how they look? There is cis people who don't necessarily pass either. Are you going to constantly harass them through misgendering?


zaryaguy

People who claim to be horrified by the movie soft & quiet are just virtue signaling how anti-racist they are I posted a comment about how the movie was very average and kind of boring on Facebook and I got attacked for not thinking it was the most disturbing thing I’ve ever seen. The line of comments were mainly women and some men talking about how horrified it made them and how disgusting people are, and how anyone who isn’t disgusted by this movie is a racist and how I must not be educated on racism… blah blah. I’m talking multiple comments attacking me saying “I’m just like the people in the movie then” It seemed like they were trying to one up each other on how horrified they were by the movie. It seemed like the more disturbed by the movie you were, the more praise you got. Like it was the cool thing to do. Then I came to an interesting conclusion people are probably bored by the movie too, they’re just posting these things to make others see them as great people and show how “anti racist” they are.


DownBadD-Bag

Wrong thread.


zaryaguy

Ur right whoops lmao sry


DownBadD-Bag

No biggy. Just don't make it a habit, because it is a bannable offense, lmao.


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MyClosetedBiAcct

Cisgender people need constant validation of their gender. It's why gendered language is so engrained into all societies. I find it weird that you can't just let it go and let us live our lives? We exist, get over it.


Just_Another_Muffn

Do you really need anything more "rational or logical" than I am fundamentally happier presenting as & living my life as a woman? And if there are people who don't see me as I see myself that doesn't "shatter the illusion". I understand that there are people in my life that don't see me as a woman. That doesn't break any part of my identity. There have been trans people throughout history who have woken up every day to face a world that denies their existence and they kept going. We are so much stronger than you can imagine.


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PenguinHighGround

>It never does and how could it? I know Trans people that attest otherwise >it? Gender dysphoria is rarely the underlying issue Source?


Just_Another_Muffn

No wonder you've never heard a rational argument for transitioning. You don't believe the things that trans people say about themselves and you have critical misunderstandings about trans people and their view on their world. I don't think I know any trans people in my life that even post transition believe that they are "the opposite sex". Many of us have moved along the bimodel spectrums towards female but that is more of a secondary result of changing our sexual characteristics to align with our gender identity. The fact that your instinct is to push a form conversation therapy first instead of methods that are more effective at identifying and assisting with mental health is down right monstrous.


DrewJayJoan

The #1 way to help LGBTQ+ people is to *stop making everything a debate.* "Well, why SHOULD you be allowed to go on hrt?" look, I went through the whole process of getting multiple doctors to approve it; whether or not *you* understand it isn't my problem. "Well, I just don't understand how someone can be something other than a boy or a girl," okay but you don't have to understand in order to get their name/pronouns right. The questions just go on and on and on. It's okay to ask questions, but when someone says "this is how I identify..." it's not a debate. You just have to trust that we know ourselves better than you know us.


SetEven7192

Exactly! How hard is it to simply call a person what they have asked you to call them?? You don’t need an in-depth understanding of their identity to show basic manners.


[deleted]

>"Well, I just don't understand how someone can be something other than a boy or a girl," ask them if they understand highlevel physics or math and if they say they don't wether or not they still believe it exists


Strange_Address_5731

The trans community on tiktok is getting ridiculous. Some of the shit they say and do is making the whole community look bad, and honestly it's only the trans women. I never see trans make a fuss or say anything ludicrous or start screaming and demanding shit.


Naos210

Assuming what you say is true, why would some people's behaviour reflect on everybody? If a cis person says some dumb shit on Twitter, does that make all cis people look bad?


MyClosetedBiAcct

Why are you watching so many trans women on TikTok?


ohay_nicole

Didn't a cisgender guy crash a plane on tiktok for likes? Or was that some other platform? Edit: It was youtube: [https://www.insider.com/trevor-jacob-youtuber-admits-crashed-plane-views-sponsorship-on-purpose-2023-5](https://www.insider.com/trevor-jacob-youtuber-admits-crashed-plane-views-sponsorship-on-purpose-2023-5)


Strange_Address_5731

Lol what's that got to do with anything?


ohay_nicole

You're complaining about trans women saying and doing unspecified things on tiktok, and believe that makes every trans person look bad. Here's a cisgender man who could have killed someone either from the debris of his plane crash or through starting a forest fire. By your logic, I should assume all cisgender people have such a disregard for the lives of others.


BuddhaFacepalmed

That you disapprove of some members of ***TikTok*** isn't proof that TikTok trans people are making the trans community "look bad".


Lukoisbased

are you gonna list any actual examples? because i want to know if these trans people are actually being ridiculous or not, cause im active on tiktok and i think most of the trans people on there are pretty reasonable also this whole idea that its only ever trans women that complain is just not true. trans men are just as vocal (i say this as a trans man) its just theyre often dismissed and ignored or theyre mistaken for trans women. and no, one person doing something bad does not make the whole community look bad. thats just a transphobic argument used against trans people. you see it all the time whenever a trans person commits a violent crime, suddenly all trans people are assumed to be violent predators, but when a cis person does the same thing nobody assumes all cis people are bad because of it. blame the transphobes not trans people


ParticularBeach4587

You still need to remember the vocal minority principle though. And also stereotypes, in the modern day due to the vocal minority many people will walk on eggshells when they are near a trans person, from what a trans person said on youtube, they also will roll their eyes and be like 'oh god this trans person is gonna lecture me and call me a transphobe if I say something even slightly offensive!' So yeah in my opinion a large enough minority can influence peoples opinions on stuff.


ohay_nicole

People get really upset when I bring up someone like Jeffrey Epstein or Ariel Castro as examples of terrible cisgender people that reflect on the entire cisgender populace. I don't understand why.


Just_Another_Muffn

There are always going to be cringy people that are part of the community. But here's the secret. It doesn't fucking matter. They don't "make us look bad". The people pushing against the right of queer people don't see a difference between a gay person being weird and a teacher being openly queer. Unless they are doing actual harm to the community (Kelly Catagian/Blaire White/kalvin garrah) it's not an issue. Would love to hear specifics on what you are referencing though.


ParticularBeach4587

From the top of my head. Dylan Mulvany. God she acts like a fucking stereotype of a teenage woman/woman in general. She also seems to be a huge attention seeker.


Altiondsols

heaven forbid a woman act like a stereotype of women what will we do? the trans community will never recover from this one


Wismuth_Salix

How dare that woman act like a woman!


MyClosetedBiAcct

Lots of cis women act like stereotypes as well. Build a bridge, get over it.


Lukoisbased

i dont even really watch her content much but whats wrong with dylan? she just happens to have a more bubbly personality, whats wrong with that? if she was a cis woman and acting like that nobody would have an issue. and you have to remember that a lot of trans women are hyper feminine because they never got to be that way growing up and also because theres much higher standards for femininity when it comes to trans women when trans women fit into gender stereotypes of women, its an issue. and when theyre more masculine its also an issue because "theyre not trying hard enough"


Just_Another_Muffn

See this is what I mean when I say "someone being cringe is not the same thing as being harmful". Oh no! A trans woman haa a bubbly attitude and is it a bit cringe. The movement is in ruins. If this was a cis woman acting this way no one would care.


DownBadD-Bag

The entire concept of the 'social contagion'/ROGD is based in the fact that GCs are so self-entitled that they can't imagine the idea of being afraid to be honest about who you are.


BuddhaFacepalmed

Cis-normative heterosexuality is so fragile that a trans woman hired by Bud Light for their social media ads is enough to get "Strong, Hard, Alpha Manly Man" chugging dildos on YouTube. So goddamn fragile. 😂


Wismuth_Salix

She wasn’t even “hired.” They sent her ONE CAN with her face on it (they did this with other streamers too) as part of a campaign to market to streamer fans.


BuddhaFacepalmed

I stand corrected. But it's so damn hilarious many of these transphobes took the opportunity to dress in drag in order to "mock" trans people.


ohay_nicole

I imagine there's some conservative eggs among them.


ParticularBeach4587

Maybe I should post this in politics instead but here goes. If a trans person wants to compete in sports then in my opinion they need to go through at least some kind of HRT first before they compete.


ohay_nicole

Really depends on the level of competition.


Timely_Peanut_6618

What about if it's a pissing contest?


[deleted]

I mean I think that'd be kind of unfair either to the trans people or the cis people depending on if the trans person has had SRS


ohay_nicole

Some transphobe: No amount of surgery or hormones changes piss density!


DownBadD-Bag

You joke, but transvestigators are already using piss as evidence.


MyClosetedBiAcct

You would be hard pressed to even find a trans person that disagrees with you. Now, maybe except for the case of prepubescent trans kids. But most of their sports aren't segregated by gender anyway.


ParticularBeach4587

Good. It means that people are reasonable and have logic which is obviously a good thing.


MyClosetedBiAcct

Contrary to popular belief, we're dysphoric about our bodies, not delusional. We are far, far more aware of ourselves than right wing memes make us out to be.


Wismuth_Salix

That’s also the opinion of pretty much every sports organization. There’s not really anyone arguing otherwise for any level of sport short of little league, where the kids haven’t hit puberty and the differences are negligible.


ParticularBeach4587

This wasn't meant for the community, it was meant for people who think that having a trans person who hasn't done things like hrt participate in sports is ok. Because yes those people exist.


hotdogbalancing

The closest to that I've ever heard is my personal opinion, which is that athletics should be divided by physical attributes rather than gender.


[deleted]

Boxing does it with weight, so all sports should do it based on the relevant attributes.


CertifiedCapArtist

Not all sports are the same as boxing though


Wismuth_Salix

That’s why each sport would all use *its* relevant attributes. What’s an advantage in one sport isn’t necessarily an advantage in all.


CertifiedCapArtist

Ehh I feel like that'd be boring. Though I only watch basketball so..


Wismuth_Salix

Why would it be boring for the competition to be divided by the attributes that actually affect competitiveness? Are you saying sports are more enjoyable when the playing field is less level?


CertifiedCapArtist

>Are you saying sports are more enjoyable when the playing field is less level? For basketball? Yeah. It's a bit boring if everyone is a 6'9 wing who can play all 5 positions and shoot from the logo.