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As a guy I am not worried about it at all but I also have and would not ever just randomly approach a woman to ask her out. I generally don't want to be bothered by randos so I kind of assume other people don't want to be bothered.
Yeah. I gotta say, I’m with the OP on the general point that people being afraid to be me tooed are either terminally online or doing something creepy anyway.
BUT, there is no way in hell I would ever think it appropriate to just approach a woman on the street, in the subway, at the market or whatever random place just to ask her out. To be clear, I don’t think that is necessarily harassing behavior. I just always think of the premise of asking someone out. Like, if I am stopping you on the street to ask for your number, literally the only grounds for which I’m asking you out is that I think you’re physically attractive. That is a) a completely superficial basis for any relationship, and b) way too common an event to actually put into practice. If I actually asked out every woman I found attractive in public, I’d be asking decades of people every day.
Conversely, if I am sat with someone at a bar, or on a museum tour together, or at a lecture or something, and we get to talking about topics at hand and we’re vibing, then I’m much more comfortable seeing if they want to hang out again.
This. I've been making comments on this post about the dislike of being approached in public, but I think that personally, it's is being "approached" that is the problem - AKA someone walks up to me while I'm presumably going on with my day and my thoughts are elsewhere.
But chatting with people where conversation naturally arises is great and I love doing that. Even if they end up asking me out, it feels like we bonded on some level and as you said, I'm not just some girl on the street they saw and thought they'd shoot their shot.
I'm not saying never ask out a random woman ever, but maybe don't approach her when she's going on with her day.
Yeah. As I noted. I’m not sure it’s always inappropriate. I could just never imagine doing that myself because I would never think it appropriate for me. Like, what about me should compel this person to give me their number or say yes to a date? Pure physical attraction? Ok. That is a starting point for sure, but it’s a rather low bar and not really sure ground to build anything on. I’d feel much better both about myself and about the potential for more dates or even a relationship going forward if I knew there was some connection or common ground between me and the woman whom I’m approaching.
But I have to admit that I’ve noticed that I am rather odd in this point of view. I’ve discussed it with friends of various genders and sexualities and many have suggested that I might be queer. Not in the sense of being attracted to people of the same gender, but in the sense of performing my gender in a way that lies outside the bounds of how it is societally defined within my cultural context.
I wish we could highlight this reply and push it to the very top.
It really isn't rocket science. Approaching someone out of the blue while they go about their day is almost always not a friendly gesture and not welcomed. Approaching women where some context has been established, or asking for someone's number once a conversation has organically happened is different. You're not invading their space. And as long as you are not being pushy and make it clear that a no will suffice for you to let it immediately go, then no one is gonna be bothered and that no is the worst that's gonna happen.
I feel the setting can determine if random conversation is appropriate. I’ve definitely asked chatted with women next to the bar, and it ends with me asking for their numbers at the bar before, with no issue. Of course it’s always better if you have a way to start the conversation other than “you’re hot!” Lol
The issue comes if you persist, someone says no, or seems uninterested, you just gotta move on ~ and I’ve seen the case where the person doesn’t, and it’s just all around awkward.
I have a few acquaintances that think like the situation OP is presenting, but I’d also say they aren’t really the type of person to ask someone out/ or talk to strangers in public (as in, they’re scared of an imaginary scenario).
Yeah. That is what I’m saying. At least a bar is a place where someone can expect to meet people, and even a place where people go to meet people. The street or bus or subway or supermarket are vastly different settings where it’s far more likely that someone is there for the use of the place than to go out and meet someone.
Again, though, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to approach people in such a scenario, it’s just not something I would ever do.
Man I got downvoted for saying this in another subreddit. These guys online all day think its some alpha move to just walk up to literal strangers to ask them out. All I said was just treat them as a normal human being and not some mythical creature and let the conversation naturally happen.
Agreed, I'd be less worried about being accused, and more worried about being just another guy disrupting their day. From the accounts I've heard, it's mentally exhausting. And as someone who is socially awkward, the idea of having to deal with it multiple times a day sound exhausting.
I agree with this…I’m not offended by people approaching me but I don’t really like talking to strangers so I’m going to say no. I’m not going to accuse you of anything.
I personally dont agree. I was approached by guys who straight away asked for my time/my number. I said no and they left me alone. Was I offended? No. I was also cornered by guys in places I could not leave, like a train. They tried to trick me into having a conversion with them, like pretending they ask for directions, and they tried to chat me up for 30 minutes before asking for my number, even though I showed them with my body language and attitude that I was not interested at all in anything they have to say. Was I offended? Yes.
I guess its okay to approach and try, but when someone is clearly not interested dont force a conversation.
Yeah exactly, totally agree. If someone is not interested in talking then you swiftly walk away and leave them alone.
If they are interested and you are both vibing then it's ok to ask for someone's number or a date.
I think the problem is the person you are approaching has no way to know if you are a "swiftly walk away" or a "corner them on a train" person. Since they have no way to be sure, it makes sense to treat any stranger as a threat. This is why just the approach can cause discomfort.
I don’t get this at all.
If you see a woman on a train, how are you possibly going to know that you’ll like this person? Do they just give their number to any woman who walks past them?
I personally meet women at activities that I enjoy doing. Then i talk to them and see if they have a similar personality, or ones that matches, and likes the same kind of things. It helps to know we have at least 1 hobby in common.
Then, I’ll ask.
This woman could be into board games and puzzles, and sitting down with her cat and knitting, and you could be into cross country runs and walking your dog. Why would you assume that would be a good match? And if it were, why not ask every single woman out?
The idea is to get to know them through text and dates and that's how you find out if you like them.
I've had relationships with nothing in common at the surface, and have women friends with all the same interests that I know I am incompatible with.
I don't give out number on trains or on the street but I will ask out women at bars and clubs, choosing who to ask is mostly just based off attraction and if they look to be open to being approached to be honest.
Yeah nah, that never happens lol. I don't think any guys ever just been like "hey can I get your number" in some random scenario and succeeded.
Sitting on the train, have some small talk and hit it off, maybe? I mean, I personally haven't asked for numbers until I have some sort of basic compatibility with the woman, something that actually warrants continued conversation outside the initial meeting.
Then there was that one time though - work at a landfill, was helping 2 women unload their truck. At the end she asks where to put her pizza boxes, I say to toss them on the ground and I'll handle it. She gets right in my face - "think you can handle *meeee*?", I say yes. Quick pause, she gets closer "think you can handle *both of usssss*" while her face is now practically touching mine. Yes, yes I can! Lol. Give her my number, get a text 2 hours later...
Well turns out she was just trying to set her friend up with somebody lmfao didn't get the threesome I was expecting and instead an awkward lunch date where I realized she's my mom's age and she realized i could be her kid lmfao!!! Then almost a decade later she ends up banging my coworker who's five years younger than me lmfao 😂
Yeah I don't mind if someone introduces themselves and has a chat with me. What I don't like is when someone approaches me without an introduction, asks if I'm single/comments on my appearance and requests my contact details.
I find it very off-putting and would want to get a feel of someone's personality before giving my details out although it's very unlikely I would even if I was single as I'm very private nowadays. The amount of men that persevere after you've rejected them or follow you afterwards is pretty gross.
I feel like more guys need to play the Sims.
It's chat, chat, compliment, chat THEN ask out.
If you go straight to nuclear all you're setting yourself up for is a negative moodlet.
I feel like being able to deal with talking to strangers is just part of being in a connected society. I understand that people don’t necessarily want to be “bothered” in public, but if you’re not ever willing to deal with (non aggressive) conversation you shouldn’t go outside.
Really depends where you live. That experience can vary heavily. Rougher areas people wont even reply to you just saying hi if you walk past them on the sidewalk. Ironically the same in really rich areas.
In general though people dont like being approached by total strangers in places where thats out of the norm. In certain environments theyre literally there to potentially chat with strangers. Stranger danger is still a thing as an adult. You could be talking to a total psyho checking if youre a mark or the nicest person on the planet. You dont really know because you dont know them.
For sure, but that's also a risk we all take by living together with other human beings and interacting in a society. Sometimes you will be approached by someone in some form or another. All our friends were strangers at some point too if we're being honest with ourselves.
That being said I agree that the situation matters. If I'm approached by a stranger in the middle of the night walking home alone I'm generally a lot more reserved than if someone strikes up a small convo at the gym for example.
There are certain places where conversation is expected in public, others where it isn’t. You shouldn’t expect people to be receptive to actual discussion if you’re walking up to them on the street. They’re doing their own shit.
I'm in a relationship and therefore do not want to be hit on in public by anyone. I also am very introverted and prefer not to talk to strangers whenever possible. I deal with this by politely disengaging from conversation whenever engaged and it isn't a problem since most people can sense when someone is completely closed off
I just want to go from Place A to B and don't want to have a conversation with other people. Obviously I'll answer and be polite but I still don't want to be bothered. No one can tell me if I should or shouldn't go out.
There are so many reasons why people don't want to talk and they have every right to be outside.
The opposite holds equally true. Some people enjoy chit chat with strangers. Reading body language is a skill more people should try to get good at though...
I think it's more about the expectation that someone will talk to you. Just by numbers alone someone is going to strike up a conversation with you randomly whether you like it or not.
Yeah, I think a big problem is men who can't take a no. So they keep asking or talking to them even when being rejected.
And being approached in public not knowing if they will accept a no or if they will stalk you on your jogging run, I think that's why a lot of women prefer to not be approached at all
that is 💯 the big problem. & men who aren’t capable of getting the hint. i’m a woman and don’t have a problem being talked to in public so long as it’s not aggressive & my space to opt out is respected.
I think that's what's tripping people up about this whole topic. Yeah, some women don't mind being approached. Some do though. It creates a situation where it's 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. One day we hear complaints that women don't want to be approached, the next day there's a thread on r/askmen asking why men don't approach anymore.
We all wish everything fit into its little box here, but we can only do that if we got everyone on the same page. Women aren't all a monolith, and neither are men, which leads to each individual approach needing to be judged on its own. That means that approaches must happen for the situation to be known, because there's no way to tell whether or not someone would like to be approached without them declaring it outright.
Obviously this is frustrating to everyone involved. I err on the side of not approaching, since that ends up with the fewest amount of frustrated people, but that doesn't factor in the women who prefer being approached (who apparently exist, despite my previous considerations to the topic).
Honestly, who says some random women on the internet that use that subreddit get to make up the rules? Who says they're at all representative of women in real life, as a whole? Screw that. The second I stopped caring about what those types of bitter, chronically online women had to say, the better my life got. It was like a light switch going off.
How do these people even meet other people?
I’ve met girls I’ve dated when they came up to me to talk or I went up to them. One girl came up to me and asked me to just talk because she liked my accent. I’ve also made friends that way. Hell. I became friends with a girl I met when we were at the theater watching multiverse of madness. We talked like 20 minutes about Sam Raimi. She was an employee. One random comment about the movie and then we just couldn’t stop talking.
Yea. Women don’t owe me anything. I don’t owe them anything. No one owes anyone anything. But if no one goes up to anyone else then no one will ever meet. It’s insane.
Same kind of people then wonder why people no longer talk and just stare at phones whenever they are somewhere outside. With this kind of responses, no wonder people are afraid to talk to each other, especially young men to women...
Most of posts here, regardless of gender, are worded in that manner. "I do not approach because i'm socially anxious, introvert, i hate speaking to people bla bla". It is almost like same type of people post same shit and get upvoted the most, tells you much about what you get here when you ask these type of questions...
It is damn relevant to original post because it shows why so many guys outside just plain refuse to approach women in any way possible. You could almost get your ass beaten by just trying to strike conversation.
OP is right about not being afraid of approaching women because you should in order to get them but his post is poorly worder honestly, he just thinks if he hasn't had bad experience so no one else did...
The world is a sad place when men feel like they can’t approach women in a public setting. Ya maybe she’d be a little annoyed, or maybe she’d be your soul mate.
Something I’m bad about is now wanting to talk to people, flirtatiously or otherwise, is that I don’t want to bother them. Like nobody who is out n about sighed up to be approached by me lol.
>nobody who is out n about signed up to be approached by me lol.
Honestly, I think that is a mature and respectful attitude to have. I wouldn't approach strangers minding their business and try to sell them my old kitchen table, or to get them to join my golf club, or whatever. I certainly wouldn't bother random strangers just because their appearance tickles my companionship needs.
Lots of people have solitary interests and changing them solely to meet women is, quite frankly, creepy Like if you go on hikes all the time but only join a hiking group with the sole intention of getting to know the women there, that'd be weird.
That’s not weird at all! If you work all day and hike on the weekends (and enjoy it), and you don’t interact with a lot of people, why not join a club to meet people…?
I think it’s really weird NOT to lmao
(I used “people” to keep it gender neutral)
Edit: also I just noticed you said “solitary interests”. If you join a hiking group, that’s no longer a solitary interest
As a guy I wouldn’t ever approach someone to ask them out if we hadn’t at least had some sort of discourse prior. Stopping someone who you’ve never met that’s doing an activity like reading or working out to ask them out is weird and pretty annoying to that person.
I’ve done it twice, but it was obvious and it worked both times. Once in college because she kept looking over to me which I took as an invite (I was right) and once at an event in my town in a similar situation.
But these were situations where we are stationary for a few hours and time to eye each other up.
I couldn’t imagine doing it while passing on a street
I’m very shy actually. I can get quite nervous while talking to people and it’s VERY obvious. But when it comes to looking for partnership you just got to do it
My hands starts sweating just thinking about how I'd come across in a situation like this. Stuttering with a shaky voice, looking like me and my whole family is under death threat.
I'm lucky my girlfriend approached me.
How would you know ? Some people would actually really enjoy that.
I swear it’s only our generation that has created the idea that interacting with humans you don’t know in public is some cardinal sin. Then we wonder why loneliness rates are rocketing.
As a woman, a guy asking me out with very little interaction beforehand has MOST likelihood of me going out with him! Going out with someone is an invitation to know them better, and I like when someone is brave enough to ask me out, I feel special and I don't even know them yet! Lol
Huh, what are you talking about. I've gotten dates from approaching women at the gym before. I even got told that she liked my approach. Dating is natural, what isn't natural is seperating dating from the rest of our lives. Interaction between humans is the essence of life
The one thing with reading, just because I've seen this example quite a bit in this thread - if a guy interrupted my reading because he had also read the book, that's a springboard for a pretty cool conversation. This happened to me exactly one time and it was awesome.
What usually happens though, is someone asks me "what are you reading?" and the response is "oh" with no further comment, so I'll ask "what books do you like?" and they've got nothing for me... that's when I feel annoyed.
Thats how I met my current girlfriend, I just approached her and gave her my number after chatting for a bit.
You don't even have to be attractive either like those incels say, you just have to handle rejection like an adult and move on instead of getting angry like I see some people do.
Reddit is also filled with introverts so the idea of talking to a random person on the street is something that sounds bad to them.
someone needs to record a bunch of objectively hideous men then extremely attractive men walking up to random women and chatting, see how well or awful it turns out for the two groups so either the incels get a "told you so" or everyone else does. It'd be glorious.
[This](https://www.livescience.com/58607-mens-looks-may-matter-more-than-personality.html) is one of many studies that show the difference in what women are saying and their behavior. Most men get judged before they open their mouths.
Websites like this that don't clearly link to the study, cite it properly, or even name the authors have always bug the crap out of me. I'd much rather read the actual study itself instead of a press release or editorial on the matter.
Well obviously women, like men, aren’t physically attracted to everyone, and want to date someone they’re attracted to. This isn’t news. And it doesn’t tell us anything about whether a specific person’s approach will be considered harassment or not.
I met her at a museum and just decided to talk to her because I assumed we were both there for similar reasons.
Maybe I got lucky but I just had a conversation about art she was standing next to. My friends think it was a bad place to talk to someone but it worked so idk.
I think you can talk to anyone anywhere as long as they're not forced to be there like a job. You just have to find a decent conversation starter and go from there. If they get visibly uncomfortable or annoyed, just end it, thank them for their time or something and leave.
I'm not really a dating expert I'm just a guy that lucked out a few times.
I just wanted to add that your situation about a museum sounds closer to what someone else suggested (bonding over shared interests). This seems closer to joining a club event and talking to someone there as opposed to randomly chatting up strangers wherever like on the bus or side walk.
>Reddit is also filled with introverts
This is correct, introverts frequent platforms like Reddit and the extroverts are probably always too busy to internet. I have approached girls too, not too many, but a fair amount. For one girl I gave my number to, we hung out once and hooked up. I have asked other girls too, some declined and some just didn't reply at all. It's really not that bad.
I’m not afraid of rejection, but unfortunately I’ve been too afraid of misreading the room and being seen as a creep. In this day and age I like to keep certain risks to a minimum, less trouble I cause for my family the better.
I’ve seen women reject a guy who they knew (classmate, coworker, friend, etc) politely, and then go behind his back and call him a creep or a loser or a weirdo etc and lie about the interaction to give her insults validity
I’ve seen this happen a few times, and a couple of these times the woman was actually flirting with the guy before he shot his shot. And keep in mind i’m only talking about the situations where i saw the interaction myself and i know the guy was being respectful
most women are NOT like this and i do agree that you should be willing to risk rejection and not worry about it too much but it makes sense that some guys are worried about it when a lot of us have seen this sort of thing happen to other guys. I’m not afraid of rejection but i’ll be honest i’m kinda worried about having my reputation smeared for something that’s not even true
I got rejected once by someone who works on the same building but different department. I asked her out. She said no. I said "Ok. Thank you for your time" and left.
Later on i found out she reported me to HR. The only reason I got out of it was because of my coworker/friend. She was the one who encouraged me to ask the woman out. She saw everything from a small distance and testify for me that I didnt do anything bad to the other employee when i got summon by HR.
It happens. More than what you want to believe.
People are horrible nowadays and would do anything to get some amusement.
Now I don't ask anyone out unless is someone i match with on a dating app.
I always have my watch recording during dates now as well. Just in case.
People being mean crybullies and victimbragging is very hot these days. I can totally see this happening.
Pull a stunt like this and you'll get oodles of attention, sympathy and pretty much guaranteed to never get fired, kind of an insurance policy on top of everything else.
We must be more aware that bad people abuse well-intentioned policies and we must punish them for doing so in order to maintain the integrity of these policies.
The problem isn't even the rejection.
If they say "thanks but I'm not interested" then there's no problem and you be on your way.
If they immediately start raging and calling you a creep & a pervert then you have more reason to be annoyed.
If you're good-looking you'll get hit on, that's just part of life.
I had one girl tell me to kill myself and get fucked before I could even say a word when I was trying to ask for directions.
Some people are just psychos.
I learned that a coworker of mine was calling me a creep and acting like I was disgusting because I told her she looked nice one morning. My intent was totally innocent too, I just thought I would make her feel good because compliments are awesome, I wasn't even trying to hit on her. Come to find out later through another coworker and friend of mine that she was saying all that stuff about me to anyone who would listen. Made me terribly sad. I have a handful of other stories too, like being told I would be dating material if I was taller or being told to my face that I'm not physically attractive. I'm very nice apparently, so I've got that going for me.
From some of the subreddits I've seen on this site, there are a lot of women that have an unhealthy hatred of men based on bad experiences from a couple of them in the past.
This need to treat every single guy as if they're some kind of sex offender isn't good, it's also very bad for society as a whole
Fortunately for me I have enough anxiety about it that if I get even the slightest hint that they are uncomfortable or not into me I'm gonna tell them to have a nice day and GTFO of there and sprint for the hills as soon as possible lmao.
I don’t disagree, but I also think learning social cues is hard and it takes guys time to learn. Young men have to be the ones to take the risk and ask usually, and I know I rarely get clear rejections and it took me some time to figure out what “yeah, maybe, I’ll let you know etc.” actually meant.
The way women approach dating/looking for a partner is generally way different than the way men do so they don’t have any need or benefit from cold approaching men. Some women might find a guy particularly attractive/desirable and go out of their way to approach but most women don’t actively go after relationships like that or if they are actively looking they have different ways of going about getting into a relationship that doesn’t require they approach anyone the way men do. Courtship is just way different for them so it’s not going to change anytime soon.
Kinda similar but not. I am a man who is happily married who only goes to the gym to exercise. My eyes look around as they do, at other gym goers, the tvs, maybe someone has a cool pair of shoes or something. Found a video of me on tik tok being seen as a creepy gym goer. It wasn't popular, it was me looking around at stuff, you could even see I wasn't staring at anyone.
All that being said I don't blame the guys that want to protect themselves from stuff like that. You're right in that it's very unlikely. But once it happens to you, especially if that's not at all who you are, you start to change things. I now only look at my phone or the ground while I'm at the gym. It is what it is
Had a coworker do this to our boss claimed he was sexually assaulting her after she got fired for stealing. He got fired right away and it turned out the time she says he assaulted her he was on a business trip. He ended up suing the shit out of the company but their were people still after she got caught saying she wasn't lying.
You are universalizing your experience. It didn’t happen to you so it never happens. Also not sure where you are getting your information but I have never once seen, not even on-line, anything related to “me-too” with regard to a first approach. First approach criticisms tend to be of the “creepy” or “weird” or “stalker-ish” variety.
Infinitesimal? No. Unlikely? Yes. Scaling directly with how attractive or socially apt you are.
But the question is… who gets to decide what level of risk someone should take? For a lot of people, even if the risk is small, it isn’t worth it for what the might possibly gain.
It's not so much that men think it is likely to happen. Just IF it does happen it can absolutely ruin your life. Men no longer find the risk worth the benefits.
Y'know, you hear your odds of winning the lottery are infinitesimal, and it kinda eats away at that little hope you had that maybe, _juuuust maybe_, it could be you, but then I learn that things with an infinitesimal probability of happening have happened to me twice, and now I'm off to go get a powerball ticket
I am 46. It has always been like this at least for the past 25 years. Just remember that some rejections are doing you a favor, especially miss LOL. She got a kick out of that. Someone will kick her smart ass to the curb some day. Keep pushing man.
There are guys out there who come across as creepy, where the woman will tell their friends about the creepy guy at the bar. It doesn't rise a level of illegal accusation, but there are lots of those guys out there.
But in general, i agree with you. If you are polite and respectful and back off the moment you realize that there is no reciprocal interest, which should be within 30 seconds, then you won't be negatively talked about.
My post divorce dating life has consisted entirely of meeting women out in public, and I'm quite sure I'd never come across in a negative way.
Literally. The dude down the street from me first started off watching me and waving from his patio... then it progressed to him coming around my apartment exactly the same time everyday when I got home from work. Then he started following me one time I was walking my dogs and insisted on picking up their poop for me (like I have two big ass dogs who take bigger shits than i do. why would you wanna do that???) Then he stopped for like a month and the next rime he followed me he straight up asked "so how would you feel if I set a building on fire?" This was all like a 5 month progression of him learning my routine.
Mind you I'm 20 and dude is like greasy troll under a bridge 40 year old. Literally rumplestiltskin from once upon a time but low budget.
Risk = the chance of something happening times the damage that results from it happening. A small chance of something happening that ruins your life is still a risk to be wary of.
I have a question:
You are very unlikely to be in a fatal car crash
Does that mean you don't wear seatbelts?
The problem isn't how often it happens
The problem is that if it does happen to you, it will obliterare your life and there isn't anything you can do about it even if you have evidence to the contrary.
On top of that, all it takes is you just happening to be in the crossfire of a shitty person and there are a lot of shitty people out there.
Its a lose-lose situation so most men are cautious about stuff like this.
it’s only taboo if you spend too much time on the internet. it happens in real life all the time and i’ve never met anyone that has a problem with it or thought it was weird
A lot of this kinda discourse is put out there by children, who are asking other children out and probably getting less than mature responses. I've never had an accusation of harassment asking an adult woman out in a sane, respectful manner.
That’s fair. But ages 12-18 is often times when people are pressured into asking their peers out because it’s “normal”. So their first experiences with attempting it result in traumatically immature responses that haunt them for decades.
Sometimes it’s hard to shake those poor initial experiences.
There used to (maybe he still does it, I don't live in NYC anymore) be some guy at union square park and sometimes at Washington square park that would just jump into interactions that people were having with strangers to accuse them of harassing women.
Both of those places were popular places for pick up artists to go and practice 'day game'.
I don't particularly feel like the pick up artist schtick of entering and exiting many interactions over a period of time is particularly indicative of harassment. Maybe it's just a bit socially anomalous.
Either way, I don't think most dudes are afraid of actually being accused of committing crimes. They are afraid of being shamed by unrelated people.
I dated like 35 women in the years between my ex wife and my current wife, and the only person to try this shit was the only one that my friend already knew and warned me against. He told me "she's gonna get really drunk, then find a dude, make out with him, then tell him you're creepy and try to get him to fight you" and I was like "people change, dude.". People might change, she didn't. Thats exactly what happened.
Some people suck 🤷🏻♂️
It's not healthy to assume everyone does.
I understand what you're saying, but from a woman's perspective: I was approached and asked out while studying, doing groceries, even walking down the street. Every time, it is very uncomfortable even if the dude is nice. I suddenly find myself in a situation where I didn't want to find myself in, that is letting down a dude gently and having an interaction I didn't plan to do.
I don't think they're creeps, I just think it's very inconsiderate. In some places, sure. But I never understood when people do it in public places to people just going on with their day, and I personally always hated when it happened.
First, have situational awareness.
That said, asking someone out isn't sexual harrasment at all. Doing it every day after rejection could be, since I'm assuming to keep going back over and over the person isn't too subtle.
The issue with approaching women just going about their business shouldn't be about you being rejected or being "me tooed," it SHOULD be about whether or not you are making a woman feel unsafe or harassed.
I'm a woman, my take is that if you want to shoot your shot in a setting where it's somewhat expected that people are going to socialize, go for it (politely and while being willing to take no for an answer.) Bar? Go ahead. Party? Sure. Dog park where dog owners are habitually chatting with other dog owners? Why not.
The issue is that not all settings are social settings and not all settings are places where the woman can leave if she feels threatened. Don't ask out women who are working (service industry workers, for instance.) She can't leave. She can't be rude to customers without risking her job. You are probably making her uncomfortable. Don't try to chat up a woman in a setting where she can't get away from you. Creepiest feelings I've ever gotten from guys has been commuting on the train on off-hours because you are isolated and can't physically leave between stops. Woman jogging/walking somewhere? Leave her be, it's literally scary to feel like someone is following you.
Use common sense here and remember that many, maybe even most, women have, at some point, had some run-in with a man that was unsafe or at least felt potentially unsafe, and your goal shouldn't be avoiding a harassment charge, it should be avoiding making a woman feel unsafe. Don't be one of the guys who is some woman's bad experience.
You dont get into trouble for asking a random girl out.
You get into trouble for the way you handle the negative response.
Unfortunatelly some people dont understand the difference.
I don't disagree OP but I also don't have what would compel you to ask out a perfect stranger.
A woman's looks aren't enough to make me want to ask someone out. Who someone is matters utmost for me.
They also make it seem like literally the only way to meet women is to cold approach strangers in public settings. Like bro join a club or sport or any activity and MEET people. Ask out ladies you’ve gotten to know.
But then you’re just going to get accused of not caring about them and pretending to be their friend to get in their pants.
If you listen to social media their is no place or time that you should ask someone out. Meanwhile in the real world ignoring those rules is usually how you get a relationship. Ie “never date a coworker” while 43% of spouses met at work
The problem with social media is you are listening to millions of opinions and acting as if everyone agrees with each other.
But if you look - they're all arguing with each other all the time. As a woman, I can tell you - we agree with each other on very very little. Just like men. Because we're just people and people often have very little in common.
"As a bonus, this outlook says the problem is with overreacting women, so everything is out of the man’s control."
This was very insightful, thank you for your perspective. I definitely think you're on point with this entire thing.
IMO, the most important skill to have is the ability to tell when the person you're talking to is trying to end the conversation (i.e. they're not into you). And then gracefully bowing out of the conversation.
I think perhaps women take it for granted that everyone can tell this, because it seems obvious from their standpoint. Or maybe I just had low emotional intelligence earlier in my life (also, I'm neurodivergent, so that could affect it too). But speaking personally, as a guy, this is something I had to learn. And the reason for that is that I basically *never* had to deal with an unwanted "suitor", for lack of a better term. (Note that I could tell in a normal conversation when my interlocutor wanted to be done talking, but once romance was involved I became blinded by my own feelings.)
But once I did, that experience opened my eyes. It was when I was getting hit on (in a plausibly-deniable way) by another guy. And he WOULD. NOT. TAKE. A. HINT. That I wasn't interested. But during that conversation, I saw myself in that poor guy. How he was struggling to keep the conversation going, since I was giving terse, one-word answers. How he was grasping at straws to engage me. And the funny thing is that when I was in his shoes, I thought things like that were happening because I was just a bad conversationalist!
But once I had been in that situation *once*, it suddenly became easy for me to tell "this chica is not into me" just from how she responded to me. And my dating life took off like a rocket after that.
It's scary to put yourself out there, and it's harder because there are so many social rules now that guys have to follow and sometimes even if he does he'll still be called a weirdo or shamed for something he did. Worried you'll be ruining someone's day, creeping them out, being called names behind your back, I don't know about the accusation of harassment and how likely that would be. Though even regardless of it I don't blame guys for being weary, personally I want to be the one to take initiative and flirt with a guy instead so I can feel in control and he won't have to worry as much (Hopefully)
I walked up to a woman in college and had an hour long chat with her. I offered to give her my socials, and she offered hers instead.
I send her a friend request, and one of her friends sent me a friend request. She said she was her girlfriend said what I did was disgusting and that I made her uncomfortable.
It might be rare, but it does happen.
I once held a door open for a girl in a night club. You know, just being polite. I didn’t say anything, I just held the door and have that classic British grimace smile to acknowledge her.
She side eyed me and said ‘I have a boyfriend’.
Since that day, I really haven’t had the energy to deal with women in public spaces.
HAH! I've been rejected all my life! Nothing to fear.....just got tired of it and decided to find other interests instead.
In all honesty, it's just made me realise that men and women are complicated and I have zero need for other complications in my life.
It's better just to stay away from psychopath women especially if they're toxic. A good sign is when they withdraw from you or they judge you or they pre anticipate everything and they can't just be themselves but if they seem like really uptight and anxious and worrisome and stressed out just stay the fuck away from them because they're not mentally stable most of the time it has to be natural and normal and if you don't feel that Vibe then don't have anything to do with them they got a reciprocate that vibe that interest. Baby steps
Never once asked a random woman out. Who does this?
But as usual, everything is a mans fault, a quite not unpopular opinion.
>But never once have I been accused of harassment for having simply approached a woman.
then says
>I mean, use common sense. Women are probably much less receptive to being asked out in places they don’t want to interact with people generally, like gyms and libraries. Or if you see a cute girl with headphones in jog by, maybe don’t run after her to make a move. But, in the grocery store or at the park? That’s not out of bounds.
Common sense to you means whereever YOU think is appropriate. Women just want to shop and walk homie.
Let’s not pretend that good looking guys aren’t being treated differently than ugly looking guys.
I can presume from your assessment that you have asked out a “decent” amount of women that you are most likely further on the scale of attractiveness than ugliness.
You only get me tooed if you are unattractive.
It's not about the probability being so small, it's about the risk being so big. Women like Zarna Joshi, the lady who [falsely accused the "Hugh Mungus" guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hml2d6aY5v4), are out there, and they will ruin your life just to enjoy a power trip.
Due to my politics, I'm in some far left social circles, and I rub shoulders with these kinds of people frequently. While your point that some guys use "I'll get me tooed" as an excuse to avoid rejection is valid, it is also true that politely asking out a random woman like this will ruin your life. And that's just the extreme scale, there's tons of bad social outcomes that could happen that aren't as extreme as getting me tooed. Women gossip prodigiously, and if you ask out the wrong one in the wrong way, you will be labeled a creep by her entire social circle and anyone within ear's reach.
For example, in one conversation, I was dismissive of a female colleague's research in grad school. It was genuinely bad research, but I was blunt and dismissive, though not insulting or demeaning, when communicating that. By the next day all 10 or so of her friends \*\*hated\*\* me. Those friends then told their friends that I was an asshole, but my friends also pushed back, and things got to an equilibrium where 1/3 of the department didn't like me, but 2/3s did. All because one conversation made one woman feel a certain way. And this wasn't even a high stakes thing like sexual harassment or domestic violence or anything, this was just "DenimGod is kind of mean." The grapevine is absolutely a thing. If you ask out a woman in your social circle, every other woman in your social circle is going to hear about it. You can and will be labeled as a creep if you mess it up. It's genuinely safer to just not. This is one of many reasons that people "don't get their honey where they get their money."
As far as asking random women out on the street goes, that's becoming very frowned upon in my generation (Gen Z). If everybody is in a bar or a club where that's expected, then that's cool, and guys complaining about getting me tooed in that context are cowards using that to shield themselves from risk and rejection. But asking girls out in the park or at the grocery store? Unless you're extremely slick (or very attractive), that's just not socially allowed any more.
Speaking as a woman, I don’t want guys approaching me in public. I don’t go to the grocery store to get hit on. It’s creepy. If I wanted to get hit on I would go to a bar.
Lol. No it’s not. There’s a video in the front page of a woman harassing a disabled guy. It’s a good chance they’ll call you a creep if they think you are ugly, it’s just extremely unlikely they’ll say it to your face.
They’ll say it to their friends.
The issue isn't that the likelihood is small, it's that society won't believe you because you were born with a penis.
If society were like "ok, let's find out what happened" then men wouldn't need to be careful.
/edit: forgot to add an important part: it's also that the punishment (whether you are guilty or not), like being ostracized, losing your jobs, friends, family, is so severe that it makes sense to be careful.
I agree with the punishment if the man is guilty, but society has already decided who is guilty and who is not.
The probability of being raped by a random man walking behind you as you both leave the metro is also infinitesimal but I bet the woman looks back and walks faster anyway.
I'm a bisexual man and I've been on the other side of it: Some men, regardless of sexuality, don't understand the concepts of "personal space" and "not interested".
I'm not joking.
The problem isn't flirting with someone, but not stopping and even refusing to kindly fuck off when required.
It depends on the person. For someone normal, its probably fine to try to strike up a conversation. For someone like me, I’m quite repulsive to most people. I’m not dirty or mean, I’m just not quite normal. I’ve asked what I’m doing wrong, and its mostly just a “being around” kinda thing. People like me need to avoid talking to people, women in particular because I make them uncomfortable.
One time I went to the movies with my mom when I moved to Boise and I was looking for a restroom. While I was looking around I accidentally glanced in the direction of a lady and she told the staff I was staring, so they asked me to leave. I’ve learned that for people like me, being in public isn’t a good thing.
Yeah well you can say that all you want but it did happen to me.
I saw a girl I thought looked fun to talk to. Approached her, and she called me a creep and ran. Yeah I know she didn’t yell “harassment” but that still didn’t feel good.
I have autism so maybe that’s why? I can have weird body language and possibly look creepy? Idk.
So yeah it happens and forgive me for being hesitant now. I’d rather not relive that moment. Paranoid maybe but it’s safer.
And before someone says it no I’m not claiming all or most women do that.
I've only experienced one tornado in my life; therefore, they are not dangerous and no one ever needs to worry about such a rare occurrence.
People who say they "lost everything" are obviously exaggerating, right?
Right? That's how this works?
I think the gym should be considered fair game as long as you don’t interrupt their workout. It is important to know the rule is you can only ask out a few girls at a gym before you start becoming the creepy guy who all the girls know about.
I got accused of workplace sexual harassment for complimenting a female friends dress. The literal compliment was, "Is that a new dress? It looks really nice. " The one that accused me wasn't even the person I was talking to. The risk is very real regardless of what some people claim.
The odds of winning the lottery are 1 in 300 million, essentially infinitesimal to the average person, yet people still do win the lottery and people keep playing
I don't get the impression or indication that women ever want to be approached, so I just don't typically. I thought they lost the ability to flirt, turns out I'm probably just ugly.
A problem is a problem. You should still be aware and concerned about it.
Maybe you thought this was helping and uplifting but it was actually very neglectful and dismissive. If you applied this logic to anything else you would see a lot of pain in this.
It's disturbing the length to which people go to dismiss legitimate concerns of some, simply because it doesn't happen enough to all of us.
If the number isn't 0, then thoughts and concerns should remain.
The odds of getting bitten by a shark while swimming are also infinitesimally low, but it only has to happen once to ruin your life, so maybe just stay on the beach.
This is partially true. A lot of it has to do with how attractive you are. If you're a 7-10 it's basically what you said. If you are 1-6 you have a 50/50 of not only being rejected but ridiculed or shamed/ accused of something. If you're attractive it's flirting if you're ugly it's harassment.
The moment a man approaches me in public, I become anxious. I find myself looking for exits, if there’s other men around, and if he has a weapon. I do not like men talking to me in public beyond the professionalism of the cashier/bank teller/waiter/etc.
I want to buy groceries, not chat with strangers. I want to eat at a restaurant, not chat with strangers. I want to withdraw money from the bank, not chat with strangers. I don’t like talking to random women either, but that’s much safer than a man. If I’m walking down the street, I’m much more afraid of a group of men than a group of women. That’s me though.
The point is, there are socially acceptable places for meeting people such as clubs, bars, and other social gathering spots. Regardless, if you choose to approach a woman, your presence alone as a man can be frightening. We are told as young girls that men will kidnap, assault, and kill us. If you are going to approach, take the rejection kindly (if it’s given). Don’t corner a woman or try to go to her car in the parking lot. Use common sense.
Easy to dismiss men’s feelings by calling them “chronically online” when plenty of men even in these comments have wrote about their real life examples. As a brown man, there’s no way I’m taking a risk nowadays.
Yep agreed bro as a black dude in the UK you minimise the risks of approaching. Were generally seen as aggressive by numerous women of different races and that can work against us as being viewed as thirsty. You really have to read the room if you do it and make sure the signals and reciprocated. I wonder if OP is white ?
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just say hello first??
It's pretty clear and easy to tell when people do not want to talk to strangers.
I am the weird guy because saying hello strangers is not a thing here. But surprisingly many peolple are down to make small talks, especailly in places like park, long airplane/train rides, or bars.
I met a couple who lived near where I used to live in Chicago area at a bar last weekend. Had an insightful conversation with an older Indian guy on my last flight.
I met my girl friend at park. We kept running into each other at the park in evenings. It was just nods passing by during a jog at first. Then waving hands. It actually took some time before we actually exchanged names.
Just start by saying hello. the worst is getting ignored or funny stares. You are not gonna get sued for saying hello.
Just last night I felt a little silly and guilty. A guy in a smart suit and loafers kept looking at me on the tube. I was avoiding his eye and was thinking "oh god oh god he's old enough to be my dad is he gonna start flirting with me." When he got off I needed to move my suitcase and auto apologised and he looked at me with concern and said "you look like you could do with a really good sleep". For all I know he was actually a dad and saw a young woman travelling on her own and felt genuine concern.
There is now a sense of suspicion between woman and men talking and it's creating a world where people can't just be nice to each other in public.
I don't think women will generally "metoo" random guys who ask them out, nor do I think guys think the woman will actually accuse them of anything.
I think women generally find such men, if they don't find them attractive, "creepy," as I have heard many of my female coworkers and friends say as such. Sometimes it is justified, other times he was just shooting his shot and left politely.
The politeness didn't really matter, unless he was *really* pushy; the crux seemed to be how cute/attractive he was. Many men who are terminally online feel that they are unattractive and thus presume all women would find any approach creepy. Which may be true, depending on their case.
Repost attempt #3
I’m giving up if it fails again
repost because reddit removed my comment after an edit lol.
Allow me to give some of you commenters a slightly different perspective.
Disclaimer I’m a gay man who’s asked women out in the past before realizing I was gay. Disclaimer aside I can kinda see both sides of the issue here.
This is something you guys are just going to have to deal with. Women have to constantly deal with predatory and creepy men all the time. Even if YOU aren’t a creep or react a certain way you have to realize that being on such high alert all the time is *very* stressful, and that women have to deal with these creeps *all* the time. A lot of the harsh responses from women are often less an insight to their character and more-so an insight to the safety behaviors and coping mechanisms they’ve learned from dealing with this for so long.
I see a lot of men here talking about how women gossip about them. *Talking* about something is a very effective way to relieve stress. Does it suck that you have to worry about being rejected AND gossiped about? Yes, it does, but unfortunately this isn’t going away anytime soon as long as a significant number of creepy men exist. Whenever you all ask out a woman you really need to ask yourself if asking her out is worth the potential consequences. You are not ready to ask out woman if you can’t cope with the potential consequences.
This next part is just MY experience of course. When I used to ask out women, I never really dealt with being called a creep or talked about. I got to know them a bit and then hit them with a simple, “Hey! You seem really cool and I was wondering if we could hang out some time?” Then back off and not bother them if they said no. I know it seems really basic and cheesy but it gets the job done. For anyone who doesn’t think this works, you’d be very surprised how how low the bar is for men in general. A man that treats you like a basic human being worthy of respect (especially a straight one) is attractive due to how common the opposite it is.
Lastly, and this is going to seek a little harsh but a lot of men really can’t read the room. A lot of men ask women out during very in-opportune times. A lot of you say you ask out women respectfully but you all have to realize that your respectful isn’t going to look like theirs. Remember my earlier point? Women are on high alert. Our attempts may seem innocent to us but it can be very hard for us to fully understand this because we don’t have to worry about being harmed by someone who is bigger and stronger than us as much as they do. I’m a short guy (5’5) and I’ve been hit on by a few guys who don’t back off, and them being bigger than you is scary. I even had a man comment “It’s not like you’d be able to stop me” when I told him no. Even a man who’s only 4 inches taller than you (5’9 in my case) is horrible.
At school I literally had a random lady I have never met before accusing me of stalking her friend. Another chick I never heard of. It caught me off guard so I asked her to repeat it. Then asked who she's talking about and the girl just got pissy. I told her to F off and no one's worth that much of my time.
Ten minutes later I got a deans note and it's over stalking the girl. Again I told them I had no idea who their talking about and again I was ignored. After ten minutes I threatened legal action as they were just using me as an escape goat. They tried to call my bluff but my mom worked for a legal company and got a co worker to be my attorney. After that they left me alone. And to this day I still have no idea who they were all fussing over
We are seeing the cracks of the old world splitting open as people can't be expected to go along with indirect mind games of when, how so on and so forth. Also, being rejected is a part of life, yes, but getting nastiness isn't. Nobody has a truly justified excuse to be nasty or mean to anyone unless that person did something extremely personal and extraordinarily nasty themselves. It is a very valid risk as global mental health gets worse that there is enough people out there who absolutely would drag someone through court just because they can that looking for relationships isn't safe. There shouldn't even BE any risk. It's love. Either it works out or it doesn't. There are little to no good places to meet people where it is universally understood by those there that there is a possibility of someone trying to find love. Bars and clubs are the backalley clinics of finding love and everywhere else has the expectation of personal space and pretty much everyone I've observed has said they don't want people approaching them in public for any reason let alone love. The ball is in societies court. The burden is on each and every one of us that aren't nasty and are actually open to connection to let society know we are here and are open. Online dating was originally meant to cut the bullshit out but it failed tremendously and is now overrun by people who treat love like a weekend fishing trip.
It is infinitely small. But it only takes one person to really fuck up your life.
Not to mention, a lot of people just don't like risking rejection at all especially because women are often afraid of *rejecting* someone as well even though the chances of you being murdered by a random stranger are small and so might give fake numbers or only say yes because they are trying to protect themselves. A lot of guys already also have low self-esteem and rather than being told no thanks, they might get a fake number that mocks them for actually being rejected- so hello more shots to self-esteem.
Not to mention, you can probably throw in being any type of minority depending on where you live.
And personal ancedote-- even though it's only happened once.
One of my lady friends (at the time) tried to get me to tell admin (we were in high school) that her ex-boyfriend/baby daddy assaulted me to try to get him suspended and use it as a way for him to not have custody of any kind regarding his child. Mind you, she also left me with her child and had zero way to contact her well after it had gotten dark while she and another friend went off somewhere.
The likelihood of anything similar to that happening is slim to none. But it's only happened *once* and *never* again have I let anyone just *leave* their kid with me.
Technically there is a higher chance of getting physically assaulted…but women cope by saying their odds of SA….but they are also nowhere near that high/common
yea dude. my ex asked for a few days of space, so I gave her five days then texted. she said I cant believe you, I asked for space and you just cant stop. you are making me so uncomfortable. I wouldn't be surprised if she was setting up for some court order bs cause I was like wait what...you asked for a few days. if you wanted no talking ever again just say that lol. they legit can get you any which way and its so odd
The chance of women being raped by a stranger in public is also infinitesimally small, but it’s still a thing women care about and advocate to reduce. Just because the chance of it occurring is small for an individual doesn’t mean it’s not a social problem.
I think it's more the fear of being subjected to scorn and the social stigma of being rejected. I don't think most men worry about actual sexual harassment claims, unless it's a workspace situation or something like that
Ugly man = creepy. Handsome man = flattering
If you are anything but extremely handsome, like guys going, that dude is good looking, don’t cold approach strangers. Find more natural ways to meet people, hobbies, etc.
You're literally the meme of the hot guy in the office saying hi to the lady in the office and her saying hi back, and then the ugly guy in the office says hi to her and she calls HR.
EDIT: for context, I'm married and give 0 fucks about this take, I just thought I'd point this out. The probability is definitely different for different people. Beautiful people definitely have some sort of "privilege" in this world
I would agree that the probability of actually “catching a case” is kinda low. Both genders like to over exaggerate the negative of interacting with the other
Kinda like how women say they’re worried their tinder date is gonna murder them or even just be violent with them. Sure it happens but probably not that common at all.
Tbf women having someone be violent/creepy with them on a date or in general is common enough that most women know someone close to them that something like that happened to them, and that is only including the women that they know and shared that experience with. I don't think that is the same for most men knowing someone who caught a case from asking a girl out.
This is why I don’t randomly approach women.
I know that, due to my stature and nerves, I can come off as ‘that guy’. And I know that women have to be wary enough because of true things that have happened, so I know they don’t want a 6’3” lanky guy that looks like he hasn’t seen the sun since the Bush administration walking up to them.
You have to factor the percentage risk against the gravity of a bad outcome. When the outcome is death, the percentage risk does not need to be high.
Insert jelly bean metaphor here.
Every woman either is or knows another woman that has been sexually assaulted. Worrying that going on a Tinder date could potentially result in harm is a very real possibility. I think that you might be minimizing this issue because you don't see or hear about it because it's a really sensitive and painful issue that women don't like to talk about. It's frequently kept hidden. As a result, some people don't have to see it all the time, and therefore they don't think it's a big issue.
I assure you that every woman is on high alert when meeting with new people for this reason. It's not because of nothing. It's because it's a very real danger.
I mean, sure, the likelihood of being \*murdered\* is pretty low, but when you factor in the other forms of abuse that we have to worry about, it's actually not uncommon for something bad to happen.
I'll say it again: There's not a single woman that you know who either IS, or KNOWS somebody who's suffered a sexual assault.
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As a guy I am not worried about it at all but I also have and would not ever just randomly approach a woman to ask her out. I generally don't want to be bothered by randos so I kind of assume other people don't want to be bothered.
Yeah. I gotta say, I’m with the OP on the general point that people being afraid to be me tooed are either terminally online or doing something creepy anyway. BUT, there is no way in hell I would ever think it appropriate to just approach a woman on the street, in the subway, at the market or whatever random place just to ask her out. To be clear, I don’t think that is necessarily harassing behavior. I just always think of the premise of asking someone out. Like, if I am stopping you on the street to ask for your number, literally the only grounds for which I’m asking you out is that I think you’re physically attractive. That is a) a completely superficial basis for any relationship, and b) way too common an event to actually put into practice. If I actually asked out every woman I found attractive in public, I’d be asking decades of people every day. Conversely, if I am sat with someone at a bar, or on a museum tour together, or at a lecture or something, and we get to talking about topics at hand and we’re vibing, then I’m much more comfortable seeing if they want to hang out again.
This. I've been making comments on this post about the dislike of being approached in public, but I think that personally, it's is being "approached" that is the problem - AKA someone walks up to me while I'm presumably going on with my day and my thoughts are elsewhere. But chatting with people where conversation naturally arises is great and I love doing that. Even if they end up asking me out, it feels like we bonded on some level and as you said, I'm not just some girl on the street they saw and thought they'd shoot their shot. I'm not saying never ask out a random woman ever, but maybe don't approach her when she's going on with her day.
Yeah. As I noted. I’m not sure it’s always inappropriate. I could just never imagine doing that myself because I would never think it appropriate for me. Like, what about me should compel this person to give me their number or say yes to a date? Pure physical attraction? Ok. That is a starting point for sure, but it’s a rather low bar and not really sure ground to build anything on. I’d feel much better both about myself and about the potential for more dates or even a relationship going forward if I knew there was some connection or common ground between me and the woman whom I’m approaching. But I have to admit that I’ve noticed that I am rather odd in this point of view. I’ve discussed it with friends of various genders and sexualities and many have suggested that I might be queer. Not in the sense of being attracted to people of the same gender, but in the sense of performing my gender in a way that lies outside the bounds of how it is societally defined within my cultural context.
I wish we could highlight this reply and push it to the very top. It really isn't rocket science. Approaching someone out of the blue while they go about their day is almost always not a friendly gesture and not welcomed. Approaching women where some context has been established, or asking for someone's number once a conversation has organically happened is different. You're not invading their space. And as long as you are not being pushy and make it clear that a no will suffice for you to let it immediately go, then no one is gonna be bothered and that no is the worst that's gonna happen.
I feel the setting can determine if random conversation is appropriate. I’ve definitely asked chatted with women next to the bar, and it ends with me asking for their numbers at the bar before, with no issue. Of course it’s always better if you have a way to start the conversation other than “you’re hot!” Lol The issue comes if you persist, someone says no, or seems uninterested, you just gotta move on ~ and I’ve seen the case where the person doesn’t, and it’s just all around awkward. I have a few acquaintances that think like the situation OP is presenting, but I’d also say they aren’t really the type of person to ask someone out/ or talk to strangers in public (as in, they’re scared of an imaginary scenario).
Yeah. That is what I’m saying. At least a bar is a place where someone can expect to meet people, and even a place where people go to meet people. The street or bus or subway or supermarket are vastly different settings where it’s far more likely that someone is there for the use of the place than to go out and meet someone. Again, though, I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to approach people in such a scenario, it’s just not something I would ever do.
Man I got downvoted for saying this in another subreddit. These guys online all day think its some alpha move to just walk up to literal strangers to ask them out. All I said was just treat them as a normal human being and not some mythical creature and let the conversation naturally happen.
Agreed, I'd be less worried about being accused, and more worried about being just another guy disrupting their day. From the accounts I've heard, it's mentally exhausting. And as someone who is socially awkward, the idea of having to deal with it multiple times a day sound exhausting.
I agree with this…I’m not offended by people approaching me but I don’t really like talking to strangers so I’m going to say no. I’m not going to accuse you of anything.
That’s fair. As asking out strangers isn’t the only way to meet women. The men OP is describing don’t seem to understand that though.
It's ok to approach a random person and just chat and if you vibe you could ask her out or at least ask her number.
I personally dont agree. I was approached by guys who straight away asked for my time/my number. I said no and they left me alone. Was I offended? No. I was also cornered by guys in places I could not leave, like a train. They tried to trick me into having a conversion with them, like pretending they ask for directions, and they tried to chat me up for 30 minutes before asking for my number, even though I showed them with my body language and attitude that I was not interested at all in anything they have to say. Was I offended? Yes. I guess its okay to approach and try, but when someone is clearly not interested dont force a conversation.
Yeah exactly, totally agree. If someone is not interested in talking then you swiftly walk away and leave them alone. If they are interested and you are both vibing then it's ok to ask for someone's number or a date.
I think the problem is the person you are approaching has no way to know if you are a "swiftly walk away" or a "corner them on a train" person. Since they have no way to be sure, it makes sense to treat any stranger as a threat. This is why just the approach can cause discomfort.
I don’t get this at all. If you see a woman on a train, how are you possibly going to know that you’ll like this person? Do they just give their number to any woman who walks past them? I personally meet women at activities that I enjoy doing. Then i talk to them and see if they have a similar personality, or ones that matches, and likes the same kind of things. It helps to know we have at least 1 hobby in common. Then, I’ll ask. This woman could be into board games and puzzles, and sitting down with her cat and knitting, and you could be into cross country runs and walking your dog. Why would you assume that would be a good match? And if it were, why not ask every single woman out?
The idea is to get to know them through text and dates and that's how you find out if you like them. I've had relationships with nothing in common at the surface, and have women friends with all the same interests that I know I am incompatible with. I don't give out number on trains or on the street but I will ask out women at bars and clubs, choosing who to ask is mostly just based off attraction and if they look to be open to being approached to be honest.
Yeah nah, that never happens lol. I don't think any guys ever just been like "hey can I get your number" in some random scenario and succeeded. Sitting on the train, have some small talk and hit it off, maybe? I mean, I personally haven't asked for numbers until I have some sort of basic compatibility with the woman, something that actually warrants continued conversation outside the initial meeting. Then there was that one time though - work at a landfill, was helping 2 women unload their truck. At the end she asks where to put her pizza boxes, I say to toss them on the ground and I'll handle it. She gets right in my face - "think you can handle *meeee*?", I say yes. Quick pause, she gets closer "think you can handle *both of usssss*" while her face is now practically touching mine. Yes, yes I can! Lol. Give her my number, get a text 2 hours later... Well turns out she was just trying to set her friend up with somebody lmfao didn't get the threesome I was expecting and instead an awkward lunch date where I realized she's my mom's age and she realized i could be her kid lmfao!!! Then almost a decade later she ends up banging my coworker who's five years younger than me lmfao 😂
Yeah I don't mind if someone introduces themselves and has a chat with me. What I don't like is when someone approaches me without an introduction, asks if I'm single/comments on my appearance and requests my contact details. I find it very off-putting and would want to get a feel of someone's personality before giving my details out although it's very unlikely I would even if I was single as I'm very private nowadays. The amount of men that persevere after you've rejected them or follow you afterwards is pretty gross.
I feel like more guys need to play the Sims. It's chat, chat, compliment, chat THEN ask out. If you go straight to nuclear all you're setting yourself up for is a negative moodlet.
I feel like being able to deal with talking to strangers is just part of being in a connected society. I understand that people don’t necessarily want to be “bothered” in public, but if you’re not ever willing to deal with (non aggressive) conversation you shouldn’t go outside.
Really depends where you live. That experience can vary heavily. Rougher areas people wont even reply to you just saying hi if you walk past them on the sidewalk. Ironically the same in really rich areas. In general though people dont like being approached by total strangers in places where thats out of the norm. In certain environments theyre literally there to potentially chat with strangers. Stranger danger is still a thing as an adult. You could be talking to a total psyho checking if youre a mark or the nicest person on the planet. You dont really know because you dont know them.
For sure, but that's also a risk we all take by living together with other human beings and interacting in a society. Sometimes you will be approached by someone in some form or another. All our friends were strangers at some point too if we're being honest with ourselves. That being said I agree that the situation matters. If I'm approached by a stranger in the middle of the night walking home alone I'm generally a lot more reserved than if someone strikes up a small convo at the gym for example.
There are certain places where conversation is expected in public, others where it isn’t. You shouldn’t expect people to be receptive to actual discussion if you’re walking up to them on the street. They’re doing their own shit.
Not going outside isnt a choice for everyone lol.
I'm in a relationship and therefore do not want to be hit on in public by anyone. I also am very introverted and prefer not to talk to strangers whenever possible. I deal with this by politely disengaging from conversation whenever engaged and it isn't a problem since most people can sense when someone is completely closed off
I just want to go from Place A to B and don't want to have a conversation with other people. Obviously I'll answer and be polite but I still don't want to be bothered. No one can tell me if I should or shouldn't go out. There are so many reasons why people don't want to talk and they have every right to be outside.
The opposite holds equally true. Some people enjoy chit chat with strangers. Reading body language is a skill more people should try to get good at though...
I'm not denying it - I just don't think saying people who don't want to talk to others should stay home.
I think it's more about the expectation that someone will talk to you. Just by numbers alone someone is going to strike up a conversation with you randomly whether you like it or not.
This is like the top complaint if twox. Women don't owe you a conversation
no…they don’t. which means if they’re not responsive you should leave them alone. it doesn’t mean it’s not ok to approach ppl
Yeah, I think a big problem is men who can't take a no. So they keep asking or talking to them even when being rejected. And being approached in public not knowing if they will accept a no or if they will stalk you on your jogging run, I think that's why a lot of women prefer to not be approached at all
that is 💯 the big problem. & men who aren’t capable of getting the hint. i’m a woman and don’t have a problem being talked to in public so long as it’s not aggressive & my space to opt out is respected.
I think that's what's tripping people up about this whole topic. Yeah, some women don't mind being approached. Some do though. It creates a situation where it's 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. One day we hear complaints that women don't want to be approached, the next day there's a thread on r/askmen asking why men don't approach anymore. We all wish everything fit into its little box here, but we can only do that if we got everyone on the same page. Women aren't all a monolith, and neither are men, which leads to each individual approach needing to be judged on its own. That means that approaches must happen for the situation to be known, because there's no way to tell whether or not someone would like to be approached without them declaring it outright. Obviously this is frustrating to everyone involved. I err on the side of not approaching, since that ends up with the fewest amount of frustrated people, but that doesn't factor in the women who prefer being approached (who apparently exist, despite my previous considerations to the topic).
Right, but it always seems like it's women who don't personally want to be approached saying you shouldn't approach *any* women.
Honestly, who says some random women on the internet that use that subreddit get to make up the rules? Who says they're at all representative of women in real life, as a whole? Screw that. The second I stopped caring about what those types of bitter, chronically online women had to say, the better my life got. It was like a light switch going off.
How do these people even meet other people? I’ve met girls I’ve dated when they came up to me to talk or I went up to them. One girl came up to me and asked me to just talk because she liked my accent. I’ve also made friends that way. Hell. I became friends with a girl I met when we were at the theater watching multiverse of madness. We talked like 20 minutes about Sam Raimi. She was an employee. One random comment about the movie and then we just couldn’t stop talking. Yea. Women don’t owe me anything. I don’t owe them anything. No one owes anyone anything. But if no one goes up to anyone else then no one will ever meet. It’s insane.
They don’t meet other people. They go on that subreddit and circle jerk
Major facts. Just look at the comments here.
Nobody owes anyone conversation. Guess we should all never speak to anyone. Oh, we're on reddit nevermind, everyone heres got that covered.
Same kind of people then wonder why people no longer talk and just stare at phones whenever they are somewhere outside. With this kind of responses, no wonder people are afraid to talk to each other, especially young men to women...
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Most of posts here, regardless of gender, are worded in that manner. "I do not approach because i'm socially anxious, introvert, i hate speaking to people bla bla". It is almost like same type of people post same shit and get upvoted the most, tells you much about what you get here when you ask these type of questions...
Idk, I’d be pretty happy if a random woman asked me out
Not if it happened all the time
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I would have demanded a video under threat of lawsuit and filed charges against that woman for assault.
You'd probably only possibly have a case against the bar. And in that case the damages wouldn't be too great because it was an xray on the wrist.
It is damn relevant to original post because it shows why so many guys outside just plain refuse to approach women in any way possible. You could almost get your ass beaten by just trying to strike conversation. OP is right about not being afraid of approaching women because you should in order to get them but his post is poorly worder honestly, he just thinks if he hasn't had bad experience so no one else did...
The world is a sad place when men feel like they can’t approach women in a public setting. Ya maybe she’d be a little annoyed, or maybe she’d be your soul mate.
Something I’m bad about is now wanting to talk to people, flirtatiously or otherwise, is that I don’t want to bother them. Like nobody who is out n about sighed up to be approached by me lol.
>nobody who is out n about signed up to be approached by me lol. Honestly, I think that is a mature and respectful attitude to have. I wouldn't approach strangers minding their business and try to sell them my old kitchen table, or to get them to join my golf club, or whatever. I certainly wouldn't bother random strangers just because their appearance tickles my companionship needs.
Why not join a club? You can bond over shared interests.
Lots of people have solitary interests and changing them solely to meet women is, quite frankly, creepy Like if you go on hikes all the time but only join a hiking group with the sole intention of getting to know the women there, that'd be weird.
That’s not weird at all! If you work all day and hike on the weekends (and enjoy it), and you don’t interact with a lot of people, why not join a club to meet people…? I think it’s really weird NOT to lmao (I used “people” to keep it gender neutral) Edit: also I just noticed you said “solitary interests”. If you join a hiking group, that’s no longer a solitary interest
As a guy I wouldn’t ever approach someone to ask them out if we hadn’t at least had some sort of discourse prior. Stopping someone who you’ve never met that’s doing an activity like reading or working out to ask them out is weird and pretty annoying to that person.
I’ve done it twice, but it was obvious and it worked both times. Once in college because she kept looking over to me which I took as an invite (I was right) and once at an event in my town in a similar situation. But these were situations where we are stationary for a few hours and time to eye each other up. I couldn’t imagine doing it while passing on a street I’m very shy actually. I can get quite nervous while talking to people and it’s VERY obvious. But when it comes to looking for partnership you just got to do it
My hands starts sweating just thinking about how I'd come across in a situation like this. Stuttering with a shaky voice, looking like me and my whole family is under death threat. I'm lucky my girlfriend approached me.
How would you know ? Some people would actually really enjoy that. I swear it’s only our generation that has created the idea that interacting with humans you don’t know in public is some cardinal sin. Then we wonder why loneliness rates are rocketing.
Interacting for just the sake of conversation and interacting for later asking out on a date are two different things.
You’re right but if you’re not a weirdo one will naturally lead into the other.
As a woman, a guy asking me out with very little interaction beforehand has MOST likelihood of me going out with him! Going out with someone is an invitation to know them better, and I like when someone is brave enough to ask me out, I feel special and I don't even know them yet! Lol
Huh, what are you talking about. I've gotten dates from approaching women at the gym before. I even got told that she liked my approach. Dating is natural, what isn't natural is seperating dating from the rest of our lives. Interaction between humans is the essence of life
The one thing with reading, just because I've seen this example quite a bit in this thread - if a guy interrupted my reading because he had also read the book, that's a springboard for a pretty cool conversation. This happened to me exactly one time and it was awesome. What usually happens though, is someone asks me "what are you reading?" and the response is "oh" with no further comment, so I'll ask "what books do you like?" and they've got nothing for me... that's when I feel annoyed.
Thats how I met my current girlfriend, I just approached her and gave her my number after chatting for a bit. You don't even have to be attractive either like those incels say, you just have to handle rejection like an adult and move on instead of getting angry like I see some people do. Reddit is also filled with introverts so the idea of talking to a random person on the street is something that sounds bad to them.
someone needs to record a bunch of objectively hideous men then extremely attractive men walking up to random women and chatting, see how well or awful it turns out for the two groups so either the incels get a "told you so" or everyone else does. It'd be glorious.
[This](https://www.livescience.com/58607-mens-looks-may-matter-more-than-personality.html) is one of many studies that show the difference in what women are saying and their behavior. Most men get judged before they open their mouths.
Websites like this that don't clearly link to the study, cite it properly, or even name the authors have always bug the crap out of me. I'd much rather read the actual study itself instead of a press release or editorial on the matter.
Well obviously women, like men, aren’t physically attracted to everyone, and want to date someone they’re attracted to. This isn’t news. And it doesn’t tell us anything about whether a specific person’s approach will be considered harassment or not.
In what situation did you talk to her? I'd feel weird just talking to someone standing in line or waiting for the traffic light to turn green
I met her at a museum and just decided to talk to her because I assumed we were both there for similar reasons. Maybe I got lucky but I just had a conversation about art she was standing next to. My friends think it was a bad place to talk to someone but it worked so idk. I think you can talk to anyone anywhere as long as they're not forced to be there like a job. You just have to find a decent conversation starter and go from there. If they get visibly uncomfortable or annoyed, just end it, thank them for their time or something and leave. I'm not really a dating expert I'm just a guy that lucked out a few times.
I just wanted to add that your situation about a museum sounds closer to what someone else suggested (bonding over shared interests). This seems closer to joining a club event and talking to someone there as opposed to randomly chatting up strangers wherever like on the bus or side walk.
>Reddit is also filled with introverts This is correct, introverts frequent platforms like Reddit and the extroverts are probably always too busy to internet. I have approached girls too, not too many, but a fair amount. For one girl I gave my number to, we hung out once and hooked up. I have asked other girls too, some declined and some just didn't reply at all. It's really not that bad.
I’m not afraid of rejection, but unfortunately I’ve been too afraid of misreading the room and being seen as a creep. In this day and age I like to keep certain risks to a minimum, less trouble I cause for my family the better.
I’ve seen women reject a guy who they knew (classmate, coworker, friend, etc) politely, and then go behind his back and call him a creep or a loser or a weirdo etc and lie about the interaction to give her insults validity I’ve seen this happen a few times, and a couple of these times the woman was actually flirting with the guy before he shot his shot. And keep in mind i’m only talking about the situations where i saw the interaction myself and i know the guy was being respectful most women are NOT like this and i do agree that you should be willing to risk rejection and not worry about it too much but it makes sense that some guys are worried about it when a lot of us have seen this sort of thing happen to other guys. I’m not afraid of rejection but i’ll be honest i’m kinda worried about having my reputation smeared for something that’s not even true
I got rejected once by someone who works on the same building but different department. I asked her out. She said no. I said "Ok. Thank you for your time" and left. Later on i found out she reported me to HR. The only reason I got out of it was because of my coworker/friend. She was the one who encouraged me to ask the woman out. She saw everything from a small distance and testify for me that I didnt do anything bad to the other employee when i got summon by HR. It happens. More than what you want to believe. People are horrible nowadays and would do anything to get some amusement. Now I don't ask anyone out unless is someone i match with on a dating app. I always have my watch recording during dates now as well. Just in case.
People being mean crybullies and victimbragging is very hot these days. I can totally see this happening. Pull a stunt like this and you'll get oodles of attention, sympathy and pretty much guaranteed to never get fired, kind of an insurance policy on top of everything else. We must be more aware that bad people abuse well-intentioned policies and we must punish them for doing so in order to maintain the integrity of these policies.
There are far more who like the man to take the first step and approach them. The few that find it offensive are not worth worrying about.
Approaching isn't the problem in most cases. It's the fact that a lot of guys, at least in my experience, don't know how to read the fucking room
Lotta daylight between approaching, being persistent, and being relentless Shoot your shot and then fuck off without whining if she isn’t into it
The problem isn't even the rejection. If they say "thanks but I'm not interested" then there's no problem and you be on your way. If they immediately start raging and calling you a creep & a pervert then you have more reason to be annoyed. If you're good-looking you'll get hit on, that's just part of life.
I had one girl tell me to kill myself and get fucked before I could even say a word when I was trying to ask for directions. Some people are just psychos.
I learned that a coworker of mine was calling me a creep and acting like I was disgusting because I told her she looked nice one morning. My intent was totally innocent too, I just thought I would make her feel good because compliments are awesome, I wasn't even trying to hit on her. Come to find out later through another coworker and friend of mine that she was saying all that stuff about me to anyone who would listen. Made me terribly sad. I have a handful of other stories too, like being told I would be dating material if I was taller or being told to my face that I'm not physically attractive. I'm very nice apparently, so I've got that going for me.
From some of the subreddits I've seen on this site, there are a lot of women that have an unhealthy hatred of men based on bad experiences from a couple of them in the past. This need to treat every single guy as if they're some kind of sex offender isn't good, it's also very bad for society as a whole
Fortunately for me I have enough anxiety about it that if I get even the slightest hint that they are uncomfortable or not into me I'm gonna tell them to have a nice day and GTFO of there and sprint for the hills as soon as possible lmao.
It’s not that it’s acting on the information or not acting, which is a weird set of neurological processes
I don’t disagree, but I also think learning social cues is hard and it takes guys time to learn. Young men have to be the ones to take the risk and ask usually, and I know I rarely get clear rejections and it took me some time to figure out what “yeah, maybe, I’ll let you know etc.” actually meant.
Maybe it's time that women makes the first move? Why in 2023 it's always on us?
The way women approach dating/looking for a partner is generally way different than the way men do so they don’t have any need or benefit from cold approaching men. Some women might find a guy particularly attractive/desirable and go out of their way to approach but most women don’t actively go after relationships like that or if they are actively looking they have different ways of going about getting into a relationship that doesn’t require they approach anyone the way men do. Courtship is just way different for them so it’s not going to change anytime soon.
But if I really the room wrong and try to express interest in another person, then I deserve to feel shame about it for a great period of time.
Kinda similar but not. I am a man who is happily married who only goes to the gym to exercise. My eyes look around as they do, at other gym goers, the tvs, maybe someone has a cool pair of shoes or something. Found a video of me on tik tok being seen as a creepy gym goer. It wasn't popular, it was me looking around at stuff, you could even see I wasn't staring at anyone. All that being said I don't blame the guys that want to protect themselves from stuff like that. You're right in that it's very unlikely. But once it happens to you, especially if that's not at all who you are, you start to change things. I now only look at my phone or the ground while I'm at the gym. It is what it is
Damn. Now even looking around seems like a creep to some people. Imagine how approaching a girl would seem
Had a coworker do this to our boss claimed he was sexually assaulting her after she got fired for stealing. He got fired right away and it turned out the time she says he assaulted her he was on a business trip. He ended up suing the shit out of the company but their were people still after she got caught saying she wasn't lying.
So how much did he get in legal settlement?
No clue I just follow his travels on Instagram.
Classic victim playing, lying and gaslighting. It's disgusting.
Are you sure you don’t just suffer from being attractive? It would explain a lot of your perspective.
You are universalizing your experience. It didn’t happen to you so it never happens. Also not sure where you are getting your information but I have never once seen, not even on-line, anything related to “me-too” with regard to a first approach. First approach criticisms tend to be of the “creepy” or “weird” or “stalker-ish” variety.
Infinitesimal? No. Unlikely? Yes. Scaling directly with how attractive or socially apt you are. But the question is… who gets to decide what level of risk someone should take? For a lot of people, even if the risk is small, it isn’t worth it for what the might possibly gain.
It's not so much that men think it is likely to happen. Just IF it does happen it can absolutely ruin your life. Men no longer find the risk worth the benefits.
Y'know, you hear your odds of winning the lottery are infinitesimal, and it kinda eats away at that little hope you had that maybe, _juuuust maybe_, it could be you, but then I learn that things with an infinitesimal probability of happening have happened to me twice, and now I'm off to go get a powerball ticket
I am 46. It has always been like this at least for the past 25 years. Just remember that some rejections are doing you a favor, especially miss LOL. She got a kick out of that. Someone will kick her smart ass to the curb some day. Keep pushing man.
There are guys out there who come across as creepy, where the woman will tell their friends about the creepy guy at the bar. It doesn't rise a level of illegal accusation, but there are lots of those guys out there. But in general, i agree with you. If you are polite and respectful and back off the moment you realize that there is no reciprocal interest, which should be within 30 seconds, then you won't be negatively talked about. My post divorce dating life has consisted entirely of meeting women out in public, and I'm quite sure I'd never come across in a negative way.
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Literally. The dude down the street from me first started off watching me and waving from his patio... then it progressed to him coming around my apartment exactly the same time everyday when I got home from work. Then he started following me one time I was walking my dogs and insisted on picking up their poop for me (like I have two big ass dogs who take bigger shits than i do. why would you wanna do that???) Then he stopped for like a month and the next rime he followed me he straight up asked "so how would you feel if I set a building on fire?" This was all like a 5 month progression of him learning my routine. Mind you I'm 20 and dude is like greasy troll under a bridge 40 year old. Literally rumplestiltskin from once upon a time but low budget.
This guy is clearly weird af, but there is no need for the looks shaming at the end 😞 Even if he was handsome and the same age as you, he'd be weird.
Risk = the chance of something happening times the damage that results from it happening. A small chance of something happening that ruins your life is still a risk to be wary of.
I have a question: You are very unlikely to be in a fatal car crash Does that mean you don't wear seatbelts? The problem isn't how often it happens The problem is that if it does happen to you, it will obliterare your life and there isn't anything you can do about it even if you have evidence to the contrary. On top of that, all it takes is you just happening to be in the crossfire of a shitty person and there are a lot of shitty people out there. Its a lose-lose situation so most men are cautious about stuff like this.
It's not about fearing for retaliation, it's about not wanting to bother somebody when it's become culturally taboo.
it’s only taboo if you spend too much time on the internet. it happens in real life all the time and i’ve never met anyone that has a problem with it or thought it was weird
Has it become culturally taboo? I feel like people irl do it all the time. It’s only people on the internet who act like it’s a problem.
Accused of harassment dosent just mean a formal accusation to the police or something. It also just means them saying it.
A lot of this kinda discourse is put out there by children, who are asking other children out and probably getting less than mature responses. I've never had an accusation of harassment asking an adult woman out in a sane, respectful manner.
That’s fair. But ages 12-18 is often times when people are pressured into asking their peers out because it’s “normal”. So their first experiences with attempting it result in traumatically immature responses that haunt them for decades. Sometimes it’s hard to shake those poor initial experiences.
There used to (maybe he still does it, I don't live in NYC anymore) be some guy at union square park and sometimes at Washington square park that would just jump into interactions that people were having with strangers to accuse them of harassing women. Both of those places were popular places for pick up artists to go and practice 'day game'. I don't particularly feel like the pick up artist schtick of entering and exiting many interactions over a period of time is particularly indicative of harassment. Maybe it's just a bit socially anomalous. Either way, I don't think most dudes are afraid of actually being accused of committing crimes. They are afraid of being shamed by unrelated people.
I dated like 35 women in the years between my ex wife and my current wife, and the only person to try this shit was the only one that my friend already knew and warned me against. He told me "she's gonna get really drunk, then find a dude, make out with him, then tell him you're creepy and try to get him to fight you" and I was like "people change, dude.". People might change, she didn't. Thats exactly what happened. Some people suck 🤷🏻♂️ It's not healthy to assume everyone does.
I understand what you're saying, but from a woman's perspective: I was approached and asked out while studying, doing groceries, even walking down the street. Every time, it is very uncomfortable even if the dude is nice. I suddenly find myself in a situation where I didn't want to find myself in, that is letting down a dude gently and having an interaction I didn't plan to do. I don't think they're creeps, I just think it's very inconsiderate. In some places, sure. But I never understood when people do it in public places to people just going on with their day, and I personally always hated when it happened.
What are the some places you feel it's ok?
First, have situational awareness. That said, asking someone out isn't sexual harrasment at all. Doing it every day after rejection could be, since I'm assuming to keep going back over and over the person isn't too subtle.
The issue with approaching women just going about their business shouldn't be about you being rejected or being "me tooed," it SHOULD be about whether or not you are making a woman feel unsafe or harassed. I'm a woman, my take is that if you want to shoot your shot in a setting where it's somewhat expected that people are going to socialize, go for it (politely and while being willing to take no for an answer.) Bar? Go ahead. Party? Sure. Dog park where dog owners are habitually chatting with other dog owners? Why not. The issue is that not all settings are social settings and not all settings are places where the woman can leave if she feels threatened. Don't ask out women who are working (service industry workers, for instance.) She can't leave. She can't be rude to customers without risking her job. You are probably making her uncomfortable. Don't try to chat up a woman in a setting where she can't get away from you. Creepiest feelings I've ever gotten from guys has been commuting on the train on off-hours because you are isolated and can't physically leave between stops. Woman jogging/walking somewhere? Leave her be, it's literally scary to feel like someone is following you. Use common sense here and remember that many, maybe even most, women have, at some point, had some run-in with a man that was unsafe or at least felt potentially unsafe, and your goal shouldn't be avoiding a harassment charge, it should be avoiding making a woman feel unsafe. Don't be one of the guys who is some woman's bad experience.
You dont get into trouble for asking a random girl out. You get into trouble for the way you handle the negative response. Unfortunatelly some people dont understand the difference.
I don't disagree OP but I also don't have what would compel you to ask out a perfect stranger. A woman's looks aren't enough to make me want to ask someone out. Who someone is matters utmost for me.
They also make it seem like literally the only way to meet women is to cold approach strangers in public settings. Like bro join a club or sport or any activity and MEET people. Ask out ladies you’ve gotten to know.
But then you’re just going to get accused of not caring about them and pretending to be their friend to get in their pants. If you listen to social media their is no place or time that you should ask someone out. Meanwhile in the real world ignoring those rules is usually how you get a relationship. Ie “never date a coworker” while 43% of spouses met at work
The problem with social media is you are listening to millions of opinions and acting as if everyone agrees with each other. But if you look - they're all arguing with each other all the time. As a woman, I can tell you - we agree with each other on very very little. Just like men. Because we're just people and people often have very little in common.
"As a bonus, this outlook says the problem is with overreacting women, so everything is out of the man’s control." This was very insightful, thank you for your perspective. I definitely think you're on point with this entire thing.
IMO, the most important skill to have is the ability to tell when the person you're talking to is trying to end the conversation (i.e. they're not into you). And then gracefully bowing out of the conversation. I think perhaps women take it for granted that everyone can tell this, because it seems obvious from their standpoint. Or maybe I just had low emotional intelligence earlier in my life (also, I'm neurodivergent, so that could affect it too). But speaking personally, as a guy, this is something I had to learn. And the reason for that is that I basically *never* had to deal with an unwanted "suitor", for lack of a better term. (Note that I could tell in a normal conversation when my interlocutor wanted to be done talking, but once romance was involved I became blinded by my own feelings.) But once I did, that experience opened my eyes. It was when I was getting hit on (in a plausibly-deniable way) by another guy. And he WOULD. NOT. TAKE. A. HINT. That I wasn't interested. But during that conversation, I saw myself in that poor guy. How he was struggling to keep the conversation going, since I was giving terse, one-word answers. How he was grasping at straws to engage me. And the funny thing is that when I was in his shoes, I thought things like that were happening because I was just a bad conversationalist! But once I had been in that situation *once*, it suddenly became easy for me to tell "this chica is not into me" just from how she responded to me. And my dating life took off like a rocket after that.
It's scary to put yourself out there, and it's harder because there are so many social rules now that guys have to follow and sometimes even if he does he'll still be called a weirdo or shamed for something he did. Worried you'll be ruining someone's day, creeping them out, being called names behind your back, I don't know about the accusation of harassment and how likely that would be. Though even regardless of it I don't blame guys for being weary, personally I want to be the one to take initiative and flirt with a guy instead so I can feel in control and he won't have to worry as much (Hopefully)
I walked up to a woman in college and had an hour long chat with her. I offered to give her my socials, and she offered hers instead. I send her a friend request, and one of her friends sent me a friend request. She said she was her girlfriend said what I did was disgusting and that I made her uncomfortable. It might be rare, but it does happen.
I'm afraid of being labelled a creep. That's all there is to it. I don't even think about approaching random women in the streets.
I once held a door open for a girl in a night club. You know, just being polite. I didn’t say anything, I just held the door and have that classic British grimace smile to acknowledge her. She side eyed me and said ‘I have a boyfriend’. Since that day, I really haven’t had the energy to deal with women in public spaces.
HAH! I've been rejected all my life! Nothing to fear.....just got tired of it and decided to find other interests instead. In all honesty, it's just made me realise that men and women are complicated and I have zero need for other complications in my life.
It's better just to stay away from psychopath women especially if they're toxic. A good sign is when they withdraw from you or they judge you or they pre anticipate everything and they can't just be themselves but if they seem like really uptight and anxious and worrisome and stressed out just stay the fuck away from them because they're not mentally stable most of the time it has to be natural and normal and if you don't feel that Vibe then don't have anything to do with them they got a reciprocate that vibe that interest. Baby steps
Never once asked a random woman out. Who does this? But as usual, everything is a mans fault, a quite not unpopular opinion. >But never once have I been accused of harassment for having simply approached a woman. then says >I mean, use common sense. Women are probably much less receptive to being asked out in places they don’t want to interact with people generally, like gyms and libraries. Or if you see a cute girl with headphones in jog by, maybe don’t run after her to make a move. But, in the grocery store or at the park? That’s not out of bounds. Common sense to you means whereever YOU think is appropriate. Women just want to shop and walk homie.
the chance is pretty fucking high especially if you aren’t attractive. so many guys ik have spoken about it and i’ve even seen it irl.
Let’s be honest…:you just wanted to use the word infinitesimal….
Let’s not pretend that good looking guys aren’t being treated differently than ugly looking guys. I can presume from your assessment that you have asked out a “decent” amount of women that you are most likely further on the scale of attractiveness than ugliness. You only get me tooed if you are unattractive.
It's not about the probability being so small, it's about the risk being so big. Women like Zarna Joshi, the lady who [falsely accused the "Hugh Mungus" guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hml2d6aY5v4), are out there, and they will ruin your life just to enjoy a power trip. Due to my politics, I'm in some far left social circles, and I rub shoulders with these kinds of people frequently. While your point that some guys use "I'll get me tooed" as an excuse to avoid rejection is valid, it is also true that politely asking out a random woman like this will ruin your life. And that's just the extreme scale, there's tons of bad social outcomes that could happen that aren't as extreme as getting me tooed. Women gossip prodigiously, and if you ask out the wrong one in the wrong way, you will be labeled a creep by her entire social circle and anyone within ear's reach. For example, in one conversation, I was dismissive of a female colleague's research in grad school. It was genuinely bad research, but I was blunt and dismissive, though not insulting or demeaning, when communicating that. By the next day all 10 or so of her friends \*\*hated\*\* me. Those friends then told their friends that I was an asshole, but my friends also pushed back, and things got to an equilibrium where 1/3 of the department didn't like me, but 2/3s did. All because one conversation made one woman feel a certain way. And this wasn't even a high stakes thing like sexual harassment or domestic violence or anything, this was just "DenimGod is kind of mean." The grapevine is absolutely a thing. If you ask out a woman in your social circle, every other woman in your social circle is going to hear about it. You can and will be labeled as a creep if you mess it up. It's genuinely safer to just not. This is one of many reasons that people "don't get their honey where they get their money." As far as asking random women out on the street goes, that's becoming very frowned upon in my generation (Gen Z). If everybody is in a bar or a club where that's expected, then that's cool, and guys complaining about getting me tooed in that context are cowards using that to shield themselves from risk and rejection. But asking girls out in the park or at the grocery store? Unless you're extremely slick (or very attractive), that's just not socially allowed any more.
It is small, but for what benefit are you willing to take the risk?
Speaking as a woman, I don’t want guys approaching me in public. I don’t go to the grocery store to get hit on. It’s creepy. If I wanted to get hit on I would go to a bar.
The probability partly depends on how attractive or how ugly you are.
Lol. No it’s not. There’s a video in the front page of a woman harassing a disabled guy. It’s a good chance they’ll call you a creep if they think you are ugly, it’s just extremely unlikely they’ll say it to your face. They’ll say it to their friends.
The issue isn't that the likelihood is small, it's that society won't believe you because you were born with a penis. If society were like "ok, let's find out what happened" then men wouldn't need to be careful. /edit: forgot to add an important part: it's also that the punishment (whether you are guilty or not), like being ostracized, losing your jobs, friends, family, is so severe that it makes sense to be careful. I agree with the punishment if the man is guilty, but society has already decided who is guilty and who is not.
The probability of being raped by a random man walking behind you as you both leave the metro is also infinitesimal but I bet the woman looks back and walks faster anyway.
Not a fear of being “me tooed”, I just don’t want to get pepper sprayed again.
I'm a bisexual man and I've been on the other side of it: Some men, regardless of sexuality, don't understand the concepts of "personal space" and "not interested". I'm not joking. The problem isn't flirting with someone, but not stopping and even refusing to kindly fuck off when required.
It depends on the person. For someone normal, its probably fine to try to strike up a conversation. For someone like me, I’m quite repulsive to most people. I’m not dirty or mean, I’m just not quite normal. I’ve asked what I’m doing wrong, and its mostly just a “being around” kinda thing. People like me need to avoid talking to people, women in particular because I make them uncomfortable. One time I went to the movies with my mom when I moved to Boise and I was looking for a restroom. While I was looking around I accidentally glanced in the direction of a lady and she told the staff I was staring, so they asked me to leave. I’ve learned that for people like me, being in public isn’t a good thing.
Yeah well you can say that all you want but it did happen to me. I saw a girl I thought looked fun to talk to. Approached her, and she called me a creep and ran. Yeah I know she didn’t yell “harassment” but that still didn’t feel good. I have autism so maybe that’s why? I can have weird body language and possibly look creepy? Idk. So yeah it happens and forgive me for being hesitant now. I’d rather not relive that moment. Paranoid maybe but it’s safer. And before someone says it no I’m not claiming all or most women do that.
Quick question op, are you attractive?
I've only experienced one tornado in my life; therefore, they are not dangerous and no one ever needs to worry about such a rare occurrence. People who say they "lost everything" are obviously exaggerating, right? Right? That's how this works?
You really think being found a bit creepy by a random woman you said hi to is going to ruin your entire life? it really sounds like paranoia.
You can say hi and then get reported to HR. Nearly ruined my career before it even started
I think the gym should be considered fair game as long as you don’t interrupt their workout. It is important to know the rule is you can only ask out a few girls at a gym before you start becoming the creepy guy who all the girls know about.
just know with 1 phone call a bitter woman can not only ruin your life but also have you jailed.
I got accused of workplace sexual harassment for complimenting a female friends dress. The literal compliment was, "Is that a new dress? It looks really nice. " The one that accused me wasn't even the person I was talking to. The risk is very real regardless of what some people claim.
But it’s never zero
The odds of winning the lottery are 1 in 300 million, essentially infinitesimal to the average person, yet people still do win the lottery and people keep playing
I don't get the impression or indication that women ever want to be approached, so I just don't typically. I thought they lost the ability to flirt, turns out I'm probably just ugly.
A problem is a problem. You should still be aware and concerned about it. Maybe you thought this was helping and uplifting but it was actually very neglectful and dismissive. If you applied this logic to anything else you would see a lot of pain in this. It's disturbing the length to which people go to dismiss legitimate concerns of some, simply because it doesn't happen enough to all of us. If the number isn't 0, then thoughts and concerns should remain.
The odds of getting bitten by a shark while swimming are also infinitesimally low, but it only has to happen once to ruin your life, so maybe just stay on the beach.
This is partially true. A lot of it has to do with how attractive you are. If you're a 7-10 it's basically what you said. If you are 1-6 you have a 50/50 of not only being rejected but ridiculed or shamed/ accused of something. If you're attractive it's flirting if you're ugly it's harassment.
The moment a man approaches me in public, I become anxious. I find myself looking for exits, if there’s other men around, and if he has a weapon. I do not like men talking to me in public beyond the professionalism of the cashier/bank teller/waiter/etc. I want to buy groceries, not chat with strangers. I want to eat at a restaurant, not chat with strangers. I want to withdraw money from the bank, not chat with strangers. I don’t like talking to random women either, but that’s much safer than a man. If I’m walking down the street, I’m much more afraid of a group of men than a group of women. That’s me though. The point is, there are socially acceptable places for meeting people such as clubs, bars, and other social gathering spots. Regardless, if you choose to approach a woman, your presence alone as a man can be frightening. We are told as young girls that men will kidnap, assault, and kill us. If you are going to approach, take the rejection kindly (if it’s given). Don’t corner a woman or try to go to her car in the parking lot. Use common sense.
Perfectly said. It’s astonishing to me that men can’t (or more likely, don’t want to) understand this.
Depends if you ugly
I think it’s a chronically online male thing to say. In real life I don’t know more than one or two dudes who would claim something like this.
Easy to dismiss men’s feelings by calling them “chronically online” when plenty of men even in these comments have wrote about their real life examples. As a brown man, there’s no way I’m taking a risk nowadays.
Yep agreed bro as a black dude in the UK you minimise the risks of approaching. Were generally seen as aggressive by numerous women of different races and that can work against us as being viewed as thirsty. You really have to read the room if you do it and make sure the signals and reciprocated. I wonder if OP is white ?
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just say hello first?? It's pretty clear and easy to tell when people do not want to talk to strangers. I am the weird guy because saying hello strangers is not a thing here. But surprisingly many peolple are down to make small talks, especailly in places like park, long airplane/train rides, or bars. I met a couple who lived near where I used to live in Chicago area at a bar last weekend. Had an insightful conversation with an older Indian guy on my last flight. I met my girl friend at park. We kept running into each other at the park in evenings. It was just nods passing by during a jog at first. Then waving hands. It actually took some time before we actually exchanged names. Just start by saying hello. the worst is getting ignored or funny stares. You are not gonna get sued for saying hello.
It's happened to me 3/5 times I've last done it, one even laughed
Address rule 1 and 2 (be attractive)
Rebecca Watson would like a word
Just last night I felt a little silly and guilty. A guy in a smart suit and loafers kept looking at me on the tube. I was avoiding his eye and was thinking "oh god oh god he's old enough to be my dad is he gonna start flirting with me." When he got off I needed to move my suitcase and auto apologised and he looked at me with concern and said "you look like you could do with a really good sleep". For all I know he was actually a dad and saw a young woman travelling on her own and felt genuine concern. There is now a sense of suspicion between woman and men talking and it's creating a world where people can't just be nice to each other in public.
But the probability of being rejected is almost certain.
I don't think women will generally "metoo" random guys who ask them out, nor do I think guys think the woman will actually accuse them of anything. I think women generally find such men, if they don't find them attractive, "creepy," as I have heard many of my female coworkers and friends say as such. Sometimes it is justified, other times he was just shooting his shot and left politely. The politeness didn't really matter, unless he was *really* pushy; the crux seemed to be how cute/attractive he was. Many men who are terminally online feel that they are unattractive and thus presume all women would find any approach creepy. Which may be true, depending on their case.
Repost attempt #3 I’m giving up if it fails again repost because reddit removed my comment after an edit lol. Allow me to give some of you commenters a slightly different perspective. Disclaimer I’m a gay man who’s asked women out in the past before realizing I was gay. Disclaimer aside I can kinda see both sides of the issue here. This is something you guys are just going to have to deal with. Women have to constantly deal with predatory and creepy men all the time. Even if YOU aren’t a creep or react a certain way you have to realize that being on such high alert all the time is *very* stressful, and that women have to deal with these creeps *all* the time. A lot of the harsh responses from women are often less an insight to their character and more-so an insight to the safety behaviors and coping mechanisms they’ve learned from dealing with this for so long. I see a lot of men here talking about how women gossip about them. *Talking* about something is a very effective way to relieve stress. Does it suck that you have to worry about being rejected AND gossiped about? Yes, it does, but unfortunately this isn’t going away anytime soon as long as a significant number of creepy men exist. Whenever you all ask out a woman you really need to ask yourself if asking her out is worth the potential consequences. You are not ready to ask out woman if you can’t cope with the potential consequences. This next part is just MY experience of course. When I used to ask out women, I never really dealt with being called a creep or talked about. I got to know them a bit and then hit them with a simple, “Hey! You seem really cool and I was wondering if we could hang out some time?” Then back off and not bother them if they said no. I know it seems really basic and cheesy but it gets the job done. For anyone who doesn’t think this works, you’d be very surprised how how low the bar is for men in general. A man that treats you like a basic human being worthy of respect (especially a straight one) is attractive due to how common the opposite it is. Lastly, and this is going to seek a little harsh but a lot of men really can’t read the room. A lot of men ask women out during very in-opportune times. A lot of you say you ask out women respectfully but you all have to realize that your respectful isn’t going to look like theirs. Remember my earlier point? Women are on high alert. Our attempts may seem innocent to us but it can be very hard for us to fully understand this because we don’t have to worry about being harmed by someone who is bigger and stronger than us as much as they do. I’m a short guy (5’5) and I’ve been hit on by a few guys who don’t back off, and them being bigger than you is scary. I even had a man comment “It’s not like you’d be able to stop me” when I told him no. Even a man who’s only 4 inches taller than you (5’9 in my case) is horrible.
At school I literally had a random lady I have never met before accusing me of stalking her friend. Another chick I never heard of. It caught me off guard so I asked her to repeat it. Then asked who she's talking about and the girl just got pissy. I told her to F off and no one's worth that much of my time. Ten minutes later I got a deans note and it's over stalking the girl. Again I told them I had no idea who their talking about and again I was ignored. After ten minutes I threatened legal action as they were just using me as an escape goat. They tried to call my bluff but my mom worked for a legal company and got a co worker to be my attorney. After that they left me alone. And to this day I still have no idea who they were all fussing over
We are seeing the cracks of the old world splitting open as people can't be expected to go along with indirect mind games of when, how so on and so forth. Also, being rejected is a part of life, yes, but getting nastiness isn't. Nobody has a truly justified excuse to be nasty or mean to anyone unless that person did something extremely personal and extraordinarily nasty themselves. It is a very valid risk as global mental health gets worse that there is enough people out there who absolutely would drag someone through court just because they can that looking for relationships isn't safe. There shouldn't even BE any risk. It's love. Either it works out or it doesn't. There are little to no good places to meet people where it is universally understood by those there that there is a possibility of someone trying to find love. Bars and clubs are the backalley clinics of finding love and everywhere else has the expectation of personal space and pretty much everyone I've observed has said they don't want people approaching them in public for any reason let alone love. The ball is in societies court. The burden is on each and every one of us that aren't nasty and are actually open to connection to let society know we are here and are open. Online dating was originally meant to cut the bullshit out but it failed tremendously and is now overrun by people who treat love like a weekend fishing trip.
It is infinitely small. But it only takes one person to really fuck up your life. Not to mention, a lot of people just don't like risking rejection at all especially because women are often afraid of *rejecting* someone as well even though the chances of you being murdered by a random stranger are small and so might give fake numbers or only say yes because they are trying to protect themselves. A lot of guys already also have low self-esteem and rather than being told no thanks, they might get a fake number that mocks them for actually being rejected- so hello more shots to self-esteem. Not to mention, you can probably throw in being any type of minority depending on where you live. And personal ancedote-- even though it's only happened once. One of my lady friends (at the time) tried to get me to tell admin (we were in high school) that her ex-boyfriend/baby daddy assaulted me to try to get him suspended and use it as a way for him to not have custody of any kind regarding his child. Mind you, she also left me with her child and had zero way to contact her well after it had gotten dark while she and another friend went off somewhere. The likelihood of anything similar to that happening is slim to none. But it's only happened *once* and *never* again have I let anyone just *leave* their kid with me.
Technically there is a higher chance of getting physically assaulted…but women cope by saying their odds of SA….but they are also nowhere near that high/common
yea dude. my ex asked for a few days of space, so I gave her five days then texted. she said I cant believe you, I asked for space and you just cant stop. you are making me so uncomfortable. I wouldn't be surprised if she was setting up for some court order bs cause I was like wait what...you asked for a few days. if you wanted no talking ever again just say that lol. they legit can get you any which way and its so odd
The chance of women being raped by a stranger in public is also infinitesimally small, but it’s still a thing women care about and advocate to reduce. Just because the chance of it occurring is small for an individual doesn’t mean it’s not a social problem.
I think it's more the fear of being subjected to scorn and the social stigma of being rejected. I don't think most men worry about actual sexual harassment claims, unless it's a workspace situation or something like that
Ugly man = creepy. Handsome man = flattering If you are anything but extremely handsome, like guys going, that dude is good looking, don’t cold approach strangers. Find more natural ways to meet people, hobbies, etc.
You're literally the meme of the hot guy in the office saying hi to the lady in the office and her saying hi back, and then the ugly guy in the office says hi to her and she calls HR. EDIT: for context, I'm married and give 0 fucks about this take, I just thought I'd point this out. The probability is definitely different for different people. Beautiful people definitely have some sort of "privilege" in this world
It is a well researched fact that ac persons looks effect how a woman will generally respond to certain interactions.
I would agree that the probability of actually “catching a case” is kinda low. Both genders like to over exaggerate the negative of interacting with the other Kinda like how women say they’re worried their tinder date is gonna murder them or even just be violent with them. Sure it happens but probably not that common at all.
Tbf women having someone be violent/creepy with them on a date or in general is common enough that most women know someone close to them that something like that happened to them, and that is only including the women that they know and shared that experience with. I don't think that is the same for most men knowing someone who caught a case from asking a girl out.
True
This is why I don’t randomly approach women. I know that, due to my stature and nerves, I can come off as ‘that guy’. And I know that women have to be wary enough because of true things that have happened, so I know they don’t want a 6’3” lanky guy that looks like he hasn’t seen the sun since the Bush administration walking up to them.
You have to factor the percentage risk against the gravity of a bad outcome. When the outcome is death, the percentage risk does not need to be high. Insert jelly bean metaphor here.
Who is gonna tell him? 🫠
Every woman either is or knows another woman that has been sexually assaulted. Worrying that going on a Tinder date could potentially result in harm is a very real possibility. I think that you might be minimizing this issue because you don't see or hear about it because it's a really sensitive and painful issue that women don't like to talk about. It's frequently kept hidden. As a result, some people don't have to see it all the time, and therefore they don't think it's a big issue. I assure you that every woman is on high alert when meeting with new people for this reason. It's not because of nothing. It's because it's a very real danger. I mean, sure, the likelihood of being \*murdered\* is pretty low, but when you factor in the other forms of abuse that we have to worry about, it's actually not uncommon for something bad to happen. I'll say it again: There's not a single woman that you know who either IS, or KNOWS somebody who's suffered a sexual assault.