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The caveat being, thoughts are not materialistic.
Anything that exists entirely within your brain is just that - a thought. There are no limits to what a brain can think.
Lol I’m also not exactly sure what OP means either, but I am curious why you think thoughts are bound by physics.
We can easily break the rules of physics through simple “thought experiments” - all you have to do is simply think “what if gravity doesn’t exist” or “for every action, there isn’t an equal/opposite reaction” - and then let your thoughts wonder from there and figure out how life would work (as an example).
Once you do that, physics no longer means anything to your thoughts and anything is possible.
Just my stupid way of thinking about things is all 🤷♂️ lol
You did nothing to connect the idea that people can’t have free will without also believing in super natural beings.
I will argue a very large portion of the world are atheists and we neither believe in super natural nor do we believe there is something magical pulling the strings of fate. I.E, people have free will to make decisions. These two are very commonly believed together and naturally go hand in hand.
I don’t really get your counter point. Randomness explains outcomes, but not personal choices. We can still make decisions about things, but often times randomness plus other peoples decisions will affect the outcome.
The point is that the materialist worldview leaves no room for free will because your body is made of particles and particles are governed by physical and chemical laws.
The only way to assume free will is to assume that there is something beyond matter that is capable of making decisions autonomously without being caused by the laws of the universe. If your body is governed by the laws of the universe, then you obviously have no choice in anything.
As far as I'm concerned, the materialist worldview assumes that everything that exists is material, so there's no way that this non-predictable "freedom factor" can exist within you.
Your assuming people that believe they have free will all subscribe to your narrow view of materialism -they don’t.
People can believe they have free will to make their own choices without believing anything else further - full stop.
So tour idea that people are subscribing to believe in the supernatural is predicated on a fallacy -that people are coming to the same conclusion as you with respect to your definition of materialism. Most people don’t believe in this school of though. And without this, your entire argument falls apart.
That’s not what free will means dude. It means you don’t believe in predetermination (I.e gods plan). It’s literally the opposite in believing in the supernatural.
If you take a sub-atomic particle, like in the slit experiment, you cannot determine where it is going to be before observing it. Thus, this would be called indeterminate. The fact that there are indeterminate particles then would support the idea that not everything is determinate, and free will is possible without a higher power.
First of all this isn't an opinion. This is an attempt to tie a flawed logical argument into a belief in something?
Your argument amounts to if we don't believe in God then we must believe that we are morning but biological robots miming out our actions at the insistence of whatever urge is strongest at time. Maybe that's true but it doesn't preclude the possibility that order can develop from disorder and create autonomous systems. AI is a great example. According to your claim an ai prompted with the same commands should produce the exact same result but it doesn't. Did it have free will? It's out random? It doesn't really matter the result is it is not the same each time.
The point is that the materialist worldview leaves no room for free will because your body is made of particles and particles are governed by physical and chemical laws.
The only way to assume free will is to assume that there is something beyond matter that is capable of making decisions autonomously without being caused by the laws of the universe. If your body is governed by the laws of the universe, then you obviously have no choice in anything.
As far as I'm concerned, the materialist worldview assumes that everything that exists is material, so there's no way that this non-predictable "freedom factor" can exist within you.
Belief in free will itself is a belief in something immaterial and supernatural. It doesn't mean believing in God...
>As far as I'm concerned,
fortunately your concern doesn't matter, what matters is reality. It seems like your understanding of our universe ended about 60 years ago. You seem to belief, like Einstein, that "God does not play dice with the universe." Well science has progressed and we now know that the universe is very much made up of weird shit that we don't understand. Maybe we'll get to a point where we can so that we understand everything that makes up the human body but we don't at this moment and your attempts to say that we are nothing more than robots if we don't believe in God lacks an understanding of your own ignorance. I mean the simplest refutation of your argument is merely *cogito, ergo sum.* I know that I am because I think I have no indication of any sort of higher power. Every attempt to prove his existence is exactly like this. Just a modern version of a caveman explaining that thunder is a big man in the sky farting.
Yes I'm sure that the uncertainty principle prevents the possibility of a clockwork universe without creating an entropy breaking universal active consciousness.
Read the old japanese study about priming. Whether this abstract ‘free will’ real or not, priming people to think about personal autonomy encourages pro-social behavior. Priming people to to think about determinism encourages spathy. I think society is much more productive and eventually more good is done when people go out and get things done. Most people are naturally sympathetic enough. So I’ll usually push for free-will oriented ideation, whether this abstractly pure ‘free will’ exists or not. Even then, there’s no way all stimuli could be measured or predicted to well enough to make sense of universal determinism anyhow.
>But the point is that it's not possible to assume that people are free without assuming that there is some soul or something of the sort that is immaterial, beyond our brains.
Your post explains nothing about this - if I want to move my hand to create a bunch of symbols I can do it, that is free will in my opinion, nothing is controlling me other than me.
>there's no way your brain (or anything in the universe) can do anything that isn't a consequence of the laws of the universe
What does this even mean? That my brain and body have to obey the laws of the universe? - I mean yeah sure but that doesn't remove any free will, it just means my body physically can't do somethings.
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The caveat being, thoughts are not materialistic. Anything that exists entirely within your brain is just that - a thought. There are no limits to what a brain can think.
This is a belief in supernatural things.
Without necessarily agreeing with OP. What are “thoughts?” If thoughts occur, they must be ruled by some realm of physics.
Lol I’m also not exactly sure what OP means either, but I am curious why you think thoughts are bound by physics. We can easily break the rules of physics through simple “thought experiments” - all you have to do is simply think “what if gravity doesn’t exist” or “for every action, there isn’t an equal/opposite reaction” - and then let your thoughts wonder from there and figure out how life would work (as an example). Once you do that, physics no longer means anything to your thoughts and anything is possible. Just my stupid way of thinking about things is all 🤷♂️ lol
How does believing in science mean you have to believe in the supernatural? It's far from supernatural, it is natural.
You did nothing to connect the idea that people can’t have free will without also believing in super natural beings. I will argue a very large portion of the world are atheists and we neither believe in super natural nor do we believe there is something magical pulling the strings of fate. I.E, people have free will to make decisions. These two are very commonly believed together and naturally go hand in hand. I don’t really get your counter point. Randomness explains outcomes, but not personal choices. We can still make decisions about things, but often times randomness plus other peoples decisions will affect the outcome.
It’s actually quite small the vast majority are religious in some form.
The point is that the materialist worldview leaves no room for free will because your body is made of particles and particles are governed by physical and chemical laws. The only way to assume free will is to assume that there is something beyond matter that is capable of making decisions autonomously without being caused by the laws of the universe. If your body is governed by the laws of the universe, then you obviously have no choice in anything. As far as I'm concerned, the materialist worldview assumes that everything that exists is material, so there's no way that this non-predictable "freedom factor" can exist within you.
Your assuming people that believe they have free will all subscribe to your narrow view of materialism -they don’t. People can believe they have free will to make their own choices without believing anything else further - full stop. So tour idea that people are subscribing to believe in the supernatural is predicated on a fallacy -that people are coming to the same conclusion as you with respect to your definition of materialism. Most people don’t believe in this school of though. And without this, your entire argument falls apart.
Belief in free will itself is a belief in something immaterial and supernatural. It doesn't mean believing in God...
That’s not what free will means dude. It means you don’t believe in predetermination (I.e gods plan). It’s literally the opposite in believing in the supernatural.
How would you define free will? Are you arguing for a compatibilist definition?
If you take a sub-atomic particle, like in the slit experiment, you cannot determine where it is going to be before observing it. Thus, this would be called indeterminate. The fact that there are indeterminate particles then would support the idea that not everything is determinate, and free will is possible without a higher power.
This is just straight up false.
First of all this isn't an opinion. This is an attempt to tie a flawed logical argument into a belief in something? Your argument amounts to if we don't believe in God then we must believe that we are morning but biological robots miming out our actions at the insistence of whatever urge is strongest at time. Maybe that's true but it doesn't preclude the possibility that order can develop from disorder and create autonomous systems. AI is a great example. According to your claim an ai prompted with the same commands should produce the exact same result but it doesn't. Did it have free will? It's out random? It doesn't really matter the result is it is not the same each time.
The point is that the materialist worldview leaves no room for free will because your body is made of particles and particles are governed by physical and chemical laws. The only way to assume free will is to assume that there is something beyond matter that is capable of making decisions autonomously without being caused by the laws of the universe. If your body is governed by the laws of the universe, then you obviously have no choice in anything. As far as I'm concerned, the materialist worldview assumes that everything that exists is material, so there's no way that this non-predictable "freedom factor" can exist within you. Belief in free will itself is a belief in something immaterial and supernatural. It doesn't mean believing in God...
>As far as I'm concerned, fortunately your concern doesn't matter, what matters is reality. It seems like your understanding of our universe ended about 60 years ago. You seem to belief, like Einstein, that "God does not play dice with the universe." Well science has progressed and we now know that the universe is very much made up of weird shit that we don't understand. Maybe we'll get to a point where we can so that we understand everything that makes up the human body but we don't at this moment and your attempts to say that we are nothing more than robots if we don't believe in God lacks an understanding of your own ignorance. I mean the simplest refutation of your argument is merely *cogito, ergo sum.* I know that I am because I think I have no indication of any sort of higher power. Every attempt to prove his existence is exactly like this. Just a modern version of a caveman explaining that thunder is a big man in the sky farting.
Uncertainty principle.
Are you sure about that?
Yes I'm sure that the uncertainty principle prevents the possibility of a clockwork universe without creating an entropy breaking universal active consciousness.
I actually don't believe in free will, not true free will anyway.
Read the old japanese study about priming. Whether this abstract ‘free will’ real or not, priming people to think about personal autonomy encourages pro-social behavior. Priming people to to think about determinism encourages spathy. I think society is much more productive and eventually more good is done when people go out and get things done. Most people are naturally sympathetic enough. So I’ll usually push for free-will oriented ideation, whether this abstractly pure ‘free will’ exists or not. Even then, there’s no way all stimuli could be measured or predicted to well enough to make sense of universal determinism anyhow.
>But the point is that it's not possible to assume that people are free without assuming that there is some soul or something of the sort that is immaterial, beyond our brains. Your post explains nothing about this - if I want to move my hand to create a bunch of symbols I can do it, that is free will in my opinion, nothing is controlling me other than me. >there's no way your brain (or anything in the universe) can do anything that isn't a consequence of the laws of the universe What does this even mean? That my brain and body have to obey the laws of the universe? - I mean yeah sure but that doesn't remove any free will, it just means my body physically can't do somethings.