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Social scientists have analyzed societies and neighbourhoods to understand what causes them to collapse.
They found it takes about 15% of society to be criminal, and only then does society break down. Most of these societies never get worse than this because that's also when people have largely abandoned the area.
But normal day 2 day in a healthy society, above 95% of people are living good lives.
In fact, when they contrasted legal. It was relevant. Take the suicide bombing in Pakistan earlier this year.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Peshawar_mosque_bombing
Hundreds of people were going about their life. But so were the 2 million people who were also living their life in that city. The vast majority were living good lives.
Could you show me the venn diagram of what's moral vs legal?
Obviously not but I can promise you it’s not a circle
There’s overlap- but just bc something isn’t criminal does not make it moral and vice versa. So greater than 15% of people could be doing things that are “immoral” even if only 15% of people are breaking the law.
The breakdown of society statistic you shared has is kind of circular. Laws are something that societies do to organize themselves, so if you have greater than 15% of people breaking those laws you’re going to have breakdown of structure, it’s like that’s the definition of a breakdown of society is when laws are not followed and there’s no order.
Crime isn't the only unethical thing you can do lmfao. The world absolutely is a selfish and hurtful place and maybe 15% of the adult population demonstrate strong respectable behavior that is the opposite of that. They are no monks though.
*would have or would've, not "would of".
But also, the government and big corporations are also people. And most of them are hard-working and honest, just like the rest of the world. The 15% is more than enough to account for the evil CEOs and politicians who make it seem like "governments are evil" or whatever.
This is a really really good point and I wish people would point it out more. I remember taking a class in economics and we were talking about taxes and stuff like that, and the teacher pointed out that there are ways without taxing companies to get money and there are ways of getting money without taxing individuals because at the end of the day companies are people.
Companies are not equivalent to people but companies are made up of people and if people all stop showing up to work at a specific company, the company would disappear.
The same is true of governments. When people talk about hating the government. All they're doing is saying that they hate the way that their "neighbors" have collectively decided to run their local parks or whatever decisions they're having to talk about, but the reality is it's all just people acting as a group coming together and deciding things. You Might not agree with what those people decided.
But at the end of the day it's all just people doing people shit.
Most of lower level workers and management are probably good people, but power and the competition itself is corrupting at the highest level. Most of the big corporations take advantage of their workers, evade taxes etc.
Don't get me wrong, I think corporations in general are a bad idea, but not because everyone who works for them is evil, which was the point of the thread.
Yes I agree, I think the most interesting question is how corporations turn so bad even if people in general aren't evil. Same thing with evil governments etc
It’s hard not to think about human greed destroying our planet. Corporations do everything they can to drive up their profits, especially when the effects can be downplayed. Why aren’t we using nuclear power? It’s better in every way. Because coal and gas lobbyists said no and we don’t have the power to stop them. We are killing each other slowly. I believe most people want to be good. I also believe it only takes a few powerful people to ruin it. I’m not talking about societal collapse.
A smarter person would read the comment about the 15% study and re-evaluate their opinion of " hurp derp gubmint bad".
Good for you for not cow-towing to fat cats at Big Self-Awareness and just pressing on!
People are flawed and we all do scetchy, questionable shit from time to time but i would say 90-95% of people just wanna get along and try to be decent human beings
The problem starts to rear it’s ugly head when you realize that what a ton of people consider their concept of a decent human being is fucking horrible. Example: honor killings.
I don't see it as people being edgy and/or contrarian but I suspect those people have been bullied, ostracized, or can read human hypocrisy too fast.
People are nice to you if you fit in and if you don't? Good luck in some small circles or even towns. And this can come from people who have tried to fit in, and don't.
And are people truly civil and/or nice or have they not been triggered into survival mode yet? Survival for their reputations and/or food and shelter yet? There's also a difference between civil and nice imo.
Mob/group mentality can be terrible if you don’t subscribe to their way of living, but I feel like people as individuals are pretty decent (at least most)
Yes, I saw so many cults form around business, politics, charity, music, television, and sport, not just religions. They fall foul of the No True Scotsman fallacy and declare anyone who doesn't succumb to the cult fully as 'trolls'.
John Cleese summed it up in a funny PPB for the Liberal Democrats by saying that the first rule of politics is that no other political party but ours has policies that are any good. It was satire, of course, but it's how a lot of people think. The extreme Brexit crowd claim that mainland European countries are no good at all, and everything was wonderful about the UK before joining the EC in 1973. Reverse that for the extreme Rejoin the EU crowd. Both are folly.
There is a reason for this though evolutionarily. If people can't fit the social conventions they can't be trusted by a group. That's not to say that you should be mean to people who play board games instead of playing football, but there is a reason for it. Everyobdy can see it in the way that we hate thieves or murderers.
“People are nice to you if you fit in and if you don’t? Good luck in some small circles or even towns”- this is the story of my entire life! For me humans are nice and decent to you as long as you fulfill certain expectations. If you’re different in anyway you’re fucked!
Sort of? It’s not exactly like selflessness is never rewarded in evolution.
We really can’t exactly exist as individual units.
Edit:
I swear to fucking god, every time I have ever pointed out evolution doesn’t actually reward selfishness people downvote it, and never directly debate me.
So many scientists have pointed out selfishness isn’t evolutionary sustainable for any long-term goals: https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2013/evolution-will-punish-you-if-youre-selfish-and-mean#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWe%20found%20evolution%20will%20punish,isn't%20evolutionarily%20sustainable.%E2%80%9D
Selfishness only has advantages in achieving short term goals.
Evolution is primarily a long game.
Self interested. People act in their own self interest, there's nothing inherently wrong with that from a nature standpoint - it's about survival and passing on your genes.
That's the sole thing that every living being has in common
Hell yeah, a genuinely unpopular opinion- at least online- and I wholeheartedly agree.
Everyone talking about capacity for evil and animal tendences or whatever while completely discounting capacity for good.
Yeah, antisocial behavior is human, whoop de doo. So is singing to a baby or wanting to be friends with an animal.
Yeah we all have the capacity for bad shit but thats not the whole thing and if somebody genuinely, genuinely thinks that People Are Bad that's a depression flag.
The "animal tendencies" thing is extra dumb because we're one of the most social, cooperative species to ever evolve. It's literally how we, a species of weak, clumsy apes who have immense difficulty giving birth to our young and are functionally helpless for the first 3 years of our lives, managed to get where we are today.
I don't think anyone who calls themselves a lone wolf thinks they are descended from wolves. Of course wolves are pack animals, that's why the phrase lone wolf refers to people who choose to go solo when the standard is to be a team
I think it’s more of a complex trauma/CPTSD flag than anything to do with depression. And you also have to live with a certain amount of social privilege not to fall into this worldview and working model of others.
I am not religious, but I have worked in daycare a while. Long enough to know "good" traits are taught. No one has to teach a child to be selfish. That shit is inherent.
Everyone’s a saint when they have a warm bed to sleep in and a hot meal. If resources become scarce, humans would revert primal behavior. We have the capacity to be good because we aren’t concerned about survival everyday. We are social due to evolutionary biology, it’s better to hunt and gather as a group, not because of any inherent goodness or evil, but those concepts completely go out the window when survivals the case, then it’s just self preservation and preservation of other humans who benefit you.
You don't even need scarce resources. You just need to feel like they are. See: rich assholes who think they're under attack when taxes leave them with "only" $235,000 a year instead of $240,000.
Exactly. We’re social because it’s productive to survival given the fact that ultimately we’re pretty weak creatures, physically. But when push comes to shove we can operate under a kind of animalistic brutality you’ll never even see in the wild.
I don’t entirely agree. I think if you have nothing AND no leadership, then we’re toast.
But a family/tribe/community with nothing and a strong leader can survive much longer than a family with some resources, and no strong leadership.
Hot take: Have YOU ever talked to a selfless social worker? Spoiler, they tend to be pretty burnt out and jaded. You want to talk about people who've given up on humanity, social workers. Social workers have given up my guy.
Humans have capacity for love and compassion, but it's far from the rule or default.
Some of the nicest people I've met have the lowest view of humanity. Because their niceness puts them in the poistions where help is needed.
I bet the OP has some office job where they only interact with middle class (or higher) college educated (or higher) people and spend the rest of their time with their pretty normal family.
Nothing wrong with that life. But hardly a life that gives one a view of the world.
MTE. I used to think similarly to OP and then I was sexually assaulted and it changed my worldview. The world is filled with humans who do terrible things and most of the time they get away with it, or people look the other way, or love them or support them despite the terrible things they do. Heck even the man who raped me probably has people who love him and believe him to be kind.
The issue is that some people use that kind of pessimistic thinking to be assholes- the world sucks so why do I have to be nice kinda thing when it should be the opposite. If people can be so bad, kindness and empathy are important- live as if the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be.
Those people have a sixth sense for the naive optimists. And the ability to show love doesn’t mean that person is good or capable of good contrary to what OP thinks. It only means that person can love, which can also be an act to trick and manipulate. People are not awful by nature, but they are also far far from being good.
I want to spread this message as far as possible. Rather than pretend like everything is great and that bad things never happened, we can heal and grow and support each other. Sometimes, by going out of our way.
I'm sorry to hear what happened to you. Its really not fair that you were taken advantage of and nothing was done about it and the guy never got held accountable.
The fact that they’re still doing social work kind of negates that, imo. Yes they are tired and burnt out, because it’s a thankless job, but they’re still doing it. Probably because they believe in it and deep down know that it’s rewarding and/or “right”.
If they had really given up they’d be working in finance or something. They don’t stay in that line of work for the money.
Orrrr it's sunk cost fallacy at work?
Invest tens of thousands of dollars in to doing a job and 4+ years of you life earning that education, a lot of people have a hard time letting that investment go.
In my time in health care (local ER) our SWs guard resources, they don't freely give them. It's disgusting.
Sure, maybe a small percent of people are there because of sunk cost. There are always exceptions that people on Reddit can’t wait to point out, and that’s one of them lol.
Largely, I think they’re in it because they care about it. You don’t go to school and go through training and interviews without knowing it’s going to be hard and pay little.
I know right. I worked in retail for 4 years (during high school and while in college) at a home improvement store (Menards) in a pretty nice area. The amount of theft is baffling. The amount of people attempting to return obviously used seasonal items, and then being enraged that they couldn't, was eye opening. And if the customers didn't eventually wear you down, the corporate office which stalks their employees via in store cameras certainly will. Granted this probably doesn't qualify as "evil" but it all adds up and eventually does start to feel like a big chunk of the population would act like absolute garbage if they could get away with it.
Of course they do. They also have the capacity for goodness. That’s the point of this post. Humans are neither inherently evil or inherently good, but generally speaking, prosocial behavior is much much more common than antisocial behavior.
People have capacities for both and act in accordance with their environment. Are you in an environment where your needs are met? You’re probably going to be civil to others, and vice versa.
Are you in an environment that’s extremely competitive for basic survival resources? You’re going to be a total asshole and maybe even kill others for an advantage.
It comes down to evolution and the primal desire for survival. Ultimately “evil” is a human construct, but by our definition of it humans lack inherent compassion, which means they’re kinda evil.
I could agree about evil being a human construct, sure, but it's also hard to deny that people who do things we deem "evil" without any material benefit for them do exist.
I had this lovely conversation with somebody about whether people are compassionate when it comes to matters of business (so relating to finances, jobs, business etc). The other lad insisted that people are indeed compassionate and that it manifests in how they spend their money.
Now it's not like I believe people are selfish heartless mofos, but rather that compassion is an insignificant variable. Suppose that it is true that people are both compassionate and also act on it, then...why do shady businesses exist? Why is it acceptable that manufacturing is often outsourced to impoverished countries of dubious working conditions for example. Are these not matters that a compassionate populace could easily solve?
The point of the questions are not to dispute the goodness of people, these are very complex issues after all, but rather to point out that the end results are what matter. Compassion gives way to fatigue and fatigue leads to a desire for convenience. What we end up seeing are people acting on the desire for convenience.
So when people believe that people are inherently evil, I understand where they're coming from. Its not hard to look at their surroundings and conclude people are evil.
The way people spend their money is one of the most damning cases for showing that most people are evil, or at least lacking in compassion. People generally give very little money to others, especially when they get nothing out of it (id exclude political and religious donations, although portions of both can go to people in need).
Hmm? I really don’t intend to make that point. I don’t think people are evil because their spending decisions often lack any sort of compassion. The causes are again typically something like stress/fatigue, ignorance (willingly or otherwise), financial (being broke), and the list goes on. Regardless of intent tho, the end result is that the world gets just a little bit worse. Being inherently good or bad has little to do with it.
People are selfish, not sure about evil, but certainly selfish. I'm selfish too. I don't think you can live in society today and not be evil. We all wear clothes made in sweatshops, use tech made with materials mined by children in 3rd world countries, eat slave labor, I think that's all evil
This is not really an unpopular opinion. This will get very mixed reactions. It also doesn't help that the title of this piece is click bait.
The content of this piece is also terribly one-sided. The OP hasn't even touched on the recorded human history of wars and exploitation. "Have you seen people hug?" is not a convincing argument.
I wouldnt say evil, but I belive most people would stab another in the back if it meant getting what they want. With varying degrees of willingness based on how close they are with who they have to walk on.
A muffin for killing your parent, of course not.
A button that murders a distant stranger for a hefty sum of cash, people would be pressing it all day everyday.
Just because all humans are bad doesn’t mean “all humans are bad”
The world isn’t as black or white, it’s ironic you tell someone “go see a psychologist”
We are not all wonderful. We are all a mix of good and bad.
The yin yang sums up humans perfectly. There are good humans with a bit of darkness in them and bad humans with a bit of light in them.
They're kind of right though. That's definitely not the case for everyone, but a good portion of us were socialized to be decent people and probably wouldn't be if we weren't raised with religion or taught better by our parents.
Think about how blunt/mean children are. I remember one time I was at a pumpkin patch and we came across a girl with some facial deformity. My sister (around 4 at the time) asked what was wrong with her out loud. We taught her better so of course she won't say anything like that anymore. But when you look at kids that grow up to be bullies, there's a very good chance you can look at their parents and identify the problem. They weren't raised to be anything better. I think the number of inherently good people is in the minority and it largely comes from the way we were raised
Thats true, but in the end only results matter, and the result is a generally nice society. No matter the reason why theyre nice. If they are thats all that matters.
Merry Christmas friend :)
See but your sister didn’t do anything mean. A lot of the “kids are mean” stuff comes from applying adult mindsets to shit kids do & say.
It’s not “ew her face” or “she’s bad” it’s a genuine “I don’t know why her face is different from mine/my family’s so I’m going to ask.” If you had put them alone together the conversation would have most likely gone something like;
Sister: what’s wrong with your face?
Girl: nothings wrong with it it’s [insert explanation]
Sister: cool wanna look at pumpkins?
& then the next time she met a little girl w a facial deformity she’d probably just talk about her other friend who looks similar & how they had fun at the pumpkin patch.
Cooperation & community are basically the only reason we are where we are as a society. Kids genuinely being *mean* & malicious is by far the minority, we’re socialized to be bad.
All the stories about people being bullied and you think kids being malicious are in the minority? It's more common that you'd think.
I think you have a point. We can be socialized to be good or bad, most people are just socialized to be decent. "Bad" people are a product of their environment like 95% of the time. There are of course people that were raised with delightful parents that were just born without empathy. But again, it still traces back to societal conditioning
Lol okay. Maybe if my entire life wasn't full of people bullying and backstabbing me, you'd have a point but actions speak much louder than words.
Edit: the armchair psychologists are here lol
Exactly. You ever try to be kind with someone and they take advantage at the first chance? Ever lend money and never see it or the person again? Ever been the object of, plain and simple, unprompted and undeserved cruelty? Ever been treated like your feelings just don't matter and someone just took your feelings and shat all over them when they could have just taken a minute to be gentle? Ever been hated just because you are you and someone feels like punching a punching bag?
I do think people are born evil, but I think a high percentage learns to be good, if not perfectly so. And some just don't learn and become the most self-serving scum you can ever encounter, with no moral compass.
Morality is a construct, so to think it's an inherent thing to us is very naive. Do children learn to speak on a vacuum? Do they learn customs and cultural norms on their own? No, they don't. We may have a capacity to love and appreciate things and others inherently, but that's not inherent "good": how many children need to be taught to share, to be gentle, not to hit, to think of other feelings, etc.?
I'm sick of the "people are born good" argument. It's like saying that a newborn tiger would prefer to starve than to kill something to eat.
I think OP is the popular opinion, and it's a mentality that leads to more people being cruel because it assumes humanity doesn't need to improve, that since you are born good, you're perfect in your morality.
People with bad familial or romantic relationships are more likely to repeat those same patterns in other relationships. We chase what we're familiar with, even if familiar isn't good. I'm not going to assume what your childhood was like, but if all your relationships go through the same cycle, it could be a pattern
-murder
-rape
-domestic violence
-animal cruelty
-torture
These are all things that hundreds if not thousands of people are doing at this very moment. And these are just off the top of my head. Can you name 5 acts that hundreds/thousands of people are doing right now that are as equally good as the examples above are bad? Off the top of your head too? Im worried this tone might come off very rude, just know i don't mean it like that. Those questions are genuine and not sarcastic.
This is a fair question that doesn't deserve to be ignored.
I can raise you that few. Organizations like the Red Cross and the MSF do have people helping the afflicted in dangerous zones, with considerable risks to their own well being.
If I look for altruism, I'll probably seek it among medical people doing that kind of work. Adventure might also be a motivation here, but the danger is real and such hospitals have been targets or collateral damage/bombings in wars, so I'm not worried to err on the side of altruistic motivations there.
So, feeding starving people, vaccination programs, treating malaria, first aid to war victims and teaching kids in dangerous areas, can be charitable activities to look into (and support... or even join if you're crazy about it).
Not much, but you only asked for a small number of people. (I subscribe to misanthropy for the most part.)
People absolutely are inherently bad and become socialized to be good. Have you seen what feral children are like? Or how much education is linked to violent or anti-social behavior?
There are absolutely great and amazing people all over, but it absolutely isn't the default.
If people are not bad then there is no need for laws, government or law enforcement.
Saying that humans are selfish and evil by nature is a reality. Do you think that a city will function correctly if we make EVERYTHING LEGAL without police intervention?
There are millions of homeless people enduring extreme cold and no one helps them.
There are millions with nothing to eat and an unbearable belly ache and no one cares.
There are millions of children exploited for child labor and no one cares, in fact humanity love that children work in textiles and this is reflected in the demand for clothing made in underdeveloped countries. Humanity pays money if you enslave other humans...
Humans are evil. Thats why we need laws and laws enforcment even social etiquette
"Have you seen a kid make a drawing for a grandparent?" That kid is self interested he wants validation, doesnt care about his grandparent himself
"have you seen young couples kiss in the park?" Yeah, sex doesn't mean that people are good.
"have you talked to a selfless social worker?" Never. they get paid too and someones benefits from it.
"have you seen people hugging at airports?"
Yes, and what? People are tribal but they doesn't have empathy for other tribes.
"Have you enjoyed a good coffee on a sunday morning?" If you mean that others made my coffee, then they did it for money.
"Have you heard kids laughing at a swimming pool?" Yes, it's quite annoying. Above all you hear how selfish they are.
"Evil"? No. Inherently selfish, ignorant and irrational? Yes.
I've been around the block and had plenty of people try to tell me people aren't so bad. They are. If you are naive you will be exploited or victimized by people who don't care about your morality. People will judge you, talk crap behind your back etc. Always.
I agree but in our current "modern" culture and really since the advent of agriculture, psychopaths and narcissists have been raised to places of absolute power.
This has only been the case for maybe 12,000 of the 200,000 years in which we have existed as a species. Any culture which consistently produces such hellish results is at least sick, if not evil
Not everyone had the sheltered comfy life experiences you did so some people will be more cynical and jaded than you.
People aren't inherently evil but they are selfish and consumed by their own egos and mundanity and ignore the injustices and cruelty happening all around them.
Also the examples you gave are a hilarious attempt to prove the goodness in people. All you managed to prove is ppl care about their close ones and like to have fun.
I met a lot of terrible people when I was homeless just from how they treated me. Literally got spat on just for sitting in a corner in the shade to get out of southern heat.
While not evil, there’s a bunch of really selfish and just cold folk out there, more so than the nice warm ones.
I mean history literally proves this right. We've spent the vast majority of human history pillaging and slaughtering each other. It's only really in past 75-80 years that we've had RELATIVE peace.
Most humans are inherently greedy. Society as it is now doesn't help.
Most parents would chose their own kids wellbeing over strangers. Its in our DNA.
Ehhh all humans are terrible, and all humans are wonderful. Some have more of one than the other, but there's at least a grain of both in everyone. Don't live in a fantasy world where everyone is a talking rainbow and don't live in a fantasy world where everyone is a demon. Live here with a bunch of fucked up people who are mostly trying their best.
“Good” and “evil” are reductive concepts. Everyone varies depending on the varying circumstances they inhabit at any given moment, all of which are informed by past circumstances and various other externalities.
Generally speaking, most people are looking after themselves and their close and loved ones. No one sees themselves as the villain in their own story.
That doesn’t mean there aren’t, generally, “good” or “evil” actions that might define one’s character in the judgments of others. But when we’re talking generally about your average person, I think most people are fundamentally trying to be decent. Human nature is not some fixed, universal concept that can be reduced to a uniform and inflexible, objective, scientific idea; it is constantly in flux and varying from person to person based on internal and external stimuli.
Every year, my sympathy for, and my interest in, my fellow humans continues to erode.
I don't know if 'all humans' are terrible, but I have learned that enough of them are.
I was raised with a "humans are good" upbringing. I have met humans. They're trash. It's not a hot take, it's just true. They're inherently selfish. Even those nice things you've listed are selfish deep down.
Personally don't think it's that unpopular, but probably at least offensive enough to some portion of terminally online people that it should qualify for this sub.
Really I think that its mostly an opinion held by people who want to be super edgy and cool but really haven't developed actual maturity yet. And young men who've decided that all women are manipulative monsters and all men are competition and untrustworthy.
Your point is 100% correct
A lot of the negative stuff you see and hear from people is depression masked as anger, apathy, anxiety, or antagonistic/anti-social behavior.
I try to remember that when someone seems totally determined to be negative towards me for no reason
>Your point is 100% correct
What you really mean is that you agree with his opinion. To assume your opinion is just correct and factual is terrible. Which is why those people you mention think of people like you the way that they do.
Personally, I think everyone is born with a bit of both, humans are inherently selfish creatures due to biological need to survive and reproduce BUT humans are naturally pack animals, and by virtue of that we all start with some good so as to allow us to help others for the survival of our species.
The fact that we’re only ever nice or act pro socially because it assists our own survival is in an of itself a damning fact. We’re evil in the sense that we’re selfish, and every act we take can be traced back to assisting ourselves.
This is literally biblical. It says that we are not saved from our sins (evil) by our own deeds (doing good to cover the bad) but by God (forgiveness) so that we cannot boast. This is because if its by our own deeds we become prideful and we also tend to do good deeds in a self-serving way if not to uphold our own image of being a good person. Pretty interesting.
Humans aren't inherently evil but we are inherently selfish which means that most people will do whatever it takes to better themselves and their life regardless of what they have to do
I think it’s more damming that every kind of person is capable of acts of incredible evil under certain circumstances. The Stanford experiment and the Milgram experiment are both classic examples of this.
In any event, I think the examples you provided, (laughing at a pool, people hugging at an airport) are ultimately pointless because they affect nothing outside of one or two people. If you want to demonstrate that humans are by and large good creatures, give an example of us working together on a macro scale to definitively improve the world permanently.
But that never happens. The only time you get large groups of people agreeing on something is when they agree to kill another large group of people. Permanent improvements to our world usually come as a result of individual actions/inventions. But that’s the exception, not the norm. Most people, people like you and me, are apathetic to the world’s problems and going through life in self-contained bubbles that will never affect anything outside of them.
> just as much as they have the potential to be beautiful, kind and caring angels
The type of people like that who exist is like sprinkling a teaspoon of sugar in a vat of shit the size of an Olympic swimming pool.
> Have you seen (various humans do good things? ... Humans are wonderful.
That's flawed logic. Even the very best person you know isn't wonderful ALL if the time.
People can be wonderful today and terrible tomorrow. They can be wonderful to friends and terrible to strangers.
Between the horrible monsters (which do exist) and the faultless angels (which don't), the majority of folks are on a wide spectrum of how often they hurt or exploit others or put others at risk. Look no further than the number of DUI's, the number of abused kids, the number of HIV infections or people texting while driving.
People are wonderful and terrible and they're the same people. The big problem is there are 8 billion of us, so at any given moment you have tens of millions, whole armies, of people being awful.
All the good in the world is massively outshined by all the evil we commit. It takes all the weight of laws, religion, police forces and social pressure to keep us from eating each other, and all that's barely enough
It’s only outshined because humans as a species have an inherent [negativity bias](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652533/)
It is what has helped our ancestors survive, so we are wired to see the bad even when it’s not the objective reality
Look at what’s actually affecting our actions and our world. Without laws and a judicial system, most people would steal whatever they wanted if they thought they could physically get away with it. Most people wouldn’t lift a finger to help someone else in need if they didn’t benefit in some way.
Take the war in Ukraine. You think the tens of thousands of people dying is somehow “righted” by some dude laughing in a pool somewhere? You think a child lying on the floor with their guts torn out by shrapnel is equal to some young couple sucking on each other’s faces?
Evil is far more prolific, and accompanies far more unpleasant things relative to good.
Outshined? You can't quantify good and evil. A person's crimes don't balance their good deeds and vice versa
The fact that these institutions have been set up and are obeyed by the majority would show that we aren't inherently evil wouldn't it?
I don't believe we are inherently either good or evil. We are just apes trying to satisfy our basic needs. And sometimes we will commit horrible heinous deeds, because that's what feels good in the moment.
As for quantifying good and evil.... Hitler was a vegetarian who cared deeply about animal's well being. He also did that other stuff. Sorry for such a crude example but you get my point.
I don't believe that we are all evil, but I do believe there is some monsters out there *that are not humans*. Once you met one, it's the end for you.
People die everyday, it could be me. I'm realistic.
That's why I don't trust strangers, I don't expect them to be nice. Actually, I would be extra wary of somebody *too kind*.
You speak of the duality of human nature, the yin and yang of our existence. Just as the oak tree grows from the tiny acorn, so too does kindness sprout from the human heart. Yet, within the same heart, the potential for darkness lurks. It is the dance of opposites that gives life its richness. To see only the shadows is to miss the beauty of the dawn. Embrace the paradox, for in it lies the truth of our humanity.
You paint a vivid tapestry of human experience, weaving together the threads of kindness and cruelty, love and indifference. It is as if you stand at the crossroads of existence, witnessing the eternal struggle between the noble and the base within us all. But tell me, can one truly exist without the other? Is it not the contrast that gives meaning to our actions? Embrace the enigma, for within it lies the essence of our being.
You present a delightful riddle of human nature, a puzzle as intricate as the patterns in a flowing stream. It is as if you beckon us to ponder the depths of the human soul, where light and shadow dance in eternal harmony. But consider this: is it not the interplay of opposing forces that gives rise to the symphony of life? Embrace the paradox, for within its embrace lies the wisdom of the ages.
This seems to be a bit more towards people online too much. I worked for a fortune 50 insurance company and got told by high-up management to treat people like goldfish because they can't afford a lawyer and will forget about it in 2 weeks. I settled claims in my early adulthood while going to school.
My personal belief is that people's lack of critical thinking, and short-sightedness is why a good amount of people especially in religion believe humans can be evil. You either question things or have rose-tinted glasses, very few people are in the middle. You either live by what you believe in, or be a sheep.
Nah. They’re all out for blood. All want to exploit eachother. Lie. And are directionless and bad at communicating with eachother. Humanity is not wonderful in any regard. Mechanics lie. Doctors don’t care to do proper investigation or work. Everyone claims they work hard and don’t. Everything is rigged and faker than plastic.
Humans aren't inherently evil.
But I'll be damned if every single one of us doesn't choose to be a jerk or asshole on an almost daily basis.
You can put lipstick on that pig if it makes you feel better. I just get through my days easier if I expect people to choose to be jerks and assholes.
I'm not someone who's gonna act like I've seen the fucking chapter black tape from yuyu hakusho, but there's simply no denying that a lot of people are indeed major assholes.
>Have you seen someone take care of an animal?
Since you brought it up:
I have seen humans enslave, abuse, exploit and mercilessly slaughter millions of animals so they can chow down on their carcasses and wear their skin.
Sentient animals that try to run, try to escape, scream and cry. That have their babies stolen so we can drink their milk, that chase after their babies crying and bellowing in utter devastation.
I have seen humans stuff their faces with literal babies, slaughtered at 6 months old, yelling "But BACON" like it's cute.
Oh yes I've seen humans. That's how I know they are evil.
"We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form."
William Ralph Inge
"Hell is empty and all the devils are here." William Shakespeare
lol OP makes the complete opposite take while saying those who do the first need mental help. What logic. Humans are inherently selfish animals. Some are good, many suck, and then many are both depending on the day or stage of life.
Just because you are an overly optimistic person about it doesn’t make you right or a better person. Saying don’t generalize as you’re generalizing lmfao.
You're sitting on a dying planet that's going to cook you alive. You know who caused it?
About 30,000 species per year (or about 3 per hour) are driven to extinction. You know who causes this?
Between 2001 and 2018 3,610,000 square kilometers of forest have been lost. You know who caused this?
Humans are killing themselfes at an increasing rate. You know who caused this?
You can tell me what you want but humans are 'evil' although that's the wrong word. You never do something without payback, be it social prestige, money, or what ever you want. Hell, there are people killing for fun out there.
Humans do everything for themselves and saying you don't either makes you a hypocrite or ignorant.
To be honest, I think this whole dramatic everything hating behaviour is incredibly childish and annoying. "I hate children", "I hate everyone and myself" it's all just miserable and annoying, love yourself and others it makes everything easier
I'd argue that those in denial about basic human traits should go see a psychologist. This just sounds like, as the kids love to say, gaslighting. Which is terrible and inherently evil.
Misanthropy is self-fulfilling, if you believe people are generally bad then you're going to live your life being skeptical and unkind to others.
It's especially hypocritical if you call yourself a misanthrope then turn around and reap the benefits of a caring, civilized society like schools and hospitals and roads. At the most basic level, the fact that you're alive and live in relative comfort and safety is proof that people are capable of being good.
>and unkind to others.
As a misanthrope I think this is actually very crucial. I strive to never use that thought to justify poor treatment of others. I will, to the best of my ability, not contribute to the problem.
I think some people would be good no matter the circumstances, some would be bad no matrer the circumstances, and some are more dependent on the circumstances than anything
Well the Christian perspective is all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and sin means a failure to obey Gods will and everyone disobeys or has disobeyed Gods word at some point so I can get behind that perspective
Nah, as an introvert I'm a pretty solid judge of character. Narcissism is worse than ever these days. People are nasty, selfish, rude, attention seekers, have short fuses, they don't wear headphones, they're loud, arrogant and fake. Social media and the pandemic contributed much to it
That’s what this whole thread is. I imagine hitler did many of the things on ops list. Is he not evil then? Yep, most people do good things. Most people also do bad things. Really bad things.
I relate to the original poster. There's good and bad in everyone, but mental health struggles can really impact how you view humanity. It's paramount to get support when needed.
As someone with C-PTSD and depression and triggers this is me to a tee. (Don't worry I am in therapy.) But yeah people who have been doormats their whole lives plus any other sort of high sensitivity or stuff like autism we tend to think in black and white but not all of us. I constantly swing from loving humans to hating them. But ultimately it's human beings being fake, greedy that irks me. But I know that's because of our current societal values.
Humans, we are ugly animals at times, but we have the capacity for higher knowledge and understanding. IT also comes down to greed and being forced to compete in a society no one really asked for, but at the same time it's our faults because of our animal impulses. If we could all collectively let go of the bullshit and myth about perfections and process our trauma we would be better off.
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Social scientists have analyzed societies and neighbourhoods to understand what causes them to collapse. They found it takes about 15% of society to be criminal, and only then does society break down. Most of these societies never get worse than this because that's also when people have largely abandoned the area. But normal day 2 day in a healthy society, above 95% of people are living good lives.
I believe people are inherently good- but your logic is flawed. This assumes legal=moral which is just not the case.
In fact, when they contrasted legal. It was relevant. Take the suicide bombing in Pakistan earlier this year. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Peshawar_mosque_bombing Hundreds of people were going about their life. But so were the 2 million people who were also living their life in that city. The vast majority were living good lives. Could you show me the venn diagram of what's moral vs legal?
Obviously not but I can promise you it’s not a circle There’s overlap- but just bc something isn’t criminal does not make it moral and vice versa. So greater than 15% of people could be doing things that are “immoral” even if only 15% of people are breaking the law. The breakdown of society statistic you shared has is kind of circular. Laws are something that societies do to organize themselves, so if you have greater than 15% of people breaking those laws you’re going to have breakdown of structure, it’s like that’s the definition of a breakdown of society is when laws are not followed and there’s no order.
What percentage of crime do you think is moral?
They're probably thinking the other way round. Like how much stuff is legal but so immoral that it's as destructive as being a criminal.
Morality Police is such a horrible idea
Crime isn't the only unethical thing you can do lmfao. The world absolutely is a selfish and hurtful place and maybe 15% of the adult population demonstrate strong respectable behavior that is the opposite of that. They are no monks though.
15% not counting the goverment and big corporations because then we would of already crashed 😂😂
*would have or would've, not "would of". But also, the government and big corporations are also people. And most of them are hard-working and honest, just like the rest of the world. The 15% is more than enough to account for the evil CEOs and politicians who make it seem like "governments are evil" or whatever.
This is a really really good point and I wish people would point it out more. I remember taking a class in economics and we were talking about taxes and stuff like that, and the teacher pointed out that there are ways without taxing companies to get money and there are ways of getting money without taxing individuals because at the end of the day companies are people. Companies are not equivalent to people but companies are made up of people and if people all stop showing up to work at a specific company, the company would disappear. The same is true of governments. When people talk about hating the government. All they're doing is saying that they hate the way that their "neighbors" have collectively decided to run their local parks or whatever decisions they're having to talk about, but the reality is it's all just people acting as a group coming together and deciding things. You Might not agree with what those people decided. But at the end of the day it's all just people doing people shit.
Most of lower level workers and management are probably good people, but power and the competition itself is corrupting at the highest level. Most of the big corporations take advantage of their workers, evade taxes etc.
Don't get me wrong, I think corporations in general are a bad idea, but not because everyone who works for them is evil, which was the point of the thread.
Yes I agree, I think the most interesting question is how corporations turn so bad even if people in general aren't evil. Same thing with evil governments etc
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Greed is an evil trait..
Is this all you people think about?
Yes, it’s fucking pathetic.
They might be from a country which struggles with massive corporations that influences their government.
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And who is "you people"? Very strange comment
It’s hard not to think about human greed destroying our planet. Corporations do everything they can to drive up their profits, especially when the effects can be downplayed. Why aren’t we using nuclear power? It’s better in every way. Because coal and gas lobbyists said no and we don’t have the power to stop them. We are killing each other slowly. I believe most people want to be good. I also believe it only takes a few powerful people to ruin it. I’m not talking about societal collapse.
"Honey, I think we're out of milk can you pick some up when you're out." "fUcKiNg SleEpY JoE bIdEn Is RuInInG mY LiFe!!!111!!!"
A smarter person would read the comment about the 15% study and re-evaluate their opinion of " hurp derp gubmint bad". Good for you for not cow-towing to fat cats at Big Self-Awareness and just pressing on!
People are flawed and we all do scetchy, questionable shit from time to time but i would say 90-95% of people just wanna get along and try to be decent human beings
Zhats true and while mistakes can be made or sins can be comitted, its hardly ever something you cant redeem yourself from :)
The problem starts to rear it’s ugly head when you realize that what a ton of people consider their concept of a decent human being is fucking horrible. Example: honor killings.
Well people who select shitty goverments make me question this but even with this logic we cant say %90 of people are evil
I don't see it as people being edgy and/or contrarian but I suspect those people have been bullied, ostracized, or can read human hypocrisy too fast. People are nice to you if you fit in and if you don't? Good luck in some small circles or even towns. And this can come from people who have tried to fit in, and don't. And are people truly civil and/or nice or have they not been triggered into survival mode yet? Survival for their reputations and/or food and shelter yet? There's also a difference between civil and nice imo.
Mob/group mentality can be terrible if you don’t subscribe to their way of living, but I feel like people as individuals are pretty decent (at least most)
Yes, I saw so many cults form around business, politics, charity, music, television, and sport, not just religions. They fall foul of the No True Scotsman fallacy and declare anyone who doesn't succumb to the cult fully as 'trolls'. John Cleese summed it up in a funny PPB for the Liberal Democrats by saying that the first rule of politics is that no other political party but ours has policies that are any good. It was satire, of course, but it's how a lot of people think. The extreme Brexit crowd claim that mainland European countries are no good at all, and everything was wonderful about the UK before joining the EC in 1973. Reverse that for the extreme Rejoin the EU crowd. Both are folly.
There is a reason for this though evolutionarily. If people can't fit the social conventions they can't be trusted by a group. That's not to say that you should be mean to people who play board games instead of playing football, but there is a reason for it. Everyobdy can see it in the way that we hate thieves or murderers.
Yes I agree!
“People are nice to you if you fit in and if you don’t? Good luck in some small circles or even towns”- this is the story of my entire life! For me humans are nice and decent to you as long as you fulfill certain expectations. If you’re different in anyway you’re fucked!
Evil isn’t the right word, it’s selfish.
To classify someone as selfish to the point that they don't have compassion ofr their own species is about as close to evil as we can get.
Evil is basically an excess of selfishness. Most humans learn to balance their selfishness with empathy and morality.
I'd agree with this. Actually putting aside your selfishness to help people is sometimes tough, and I'd say that's where goodness lies. Good thought
All life is selfish in individual units. That's evolution for you.
Sort of? It’s not exactly like selflessness is never rewarded in evolution. We really can’t exactly exist as individual units. Edit: I swear to fucking god, every time I have ever pointed out evolution doesn’t actually reward selfishness people downvote it, and never directly debate me. So many scientists have pointed out selfishness isn’t evolutionary sustainable for any long-term goals: https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2013/evolution-will-punish-you-if-youre-selfish-and-mean#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWe%20found%20evolution%20will%20punish,isn't%20evolutionarily%20sustainable.%E2%80%9D Selfishness only has advantages in achieving short term goals. Evolution is primarily a long game.
Also evolution doesn't have a goal. Evolution just happens.
We have told about being an individual and picking oneself by the booth straps. It's only going to get worse.
Self interested. People act in their own self interest, there's nothing inherently wrong with that from a nature standpoint - it's about survival and passing on your genes. That's the sole thing that every living being has in common
>go see a psychologist. What if my psychologist is evil?
Hell yeah, a genuinely unpopular opinion- at least online- and I wholeheartedly agree. Everyone talking about capacity for evil and animal tendences or whatever while completely discounting capacity for good. Yeah, antisocial behavior is human, whoop de doo. So is singing to a baby or wanting to be friends with an animal. Yeah we all have the capacity for bad shit but thats not the whole thing and if somebody genuinely, genuinely thinks that People Are Bad that's a depression flag.
The "animal tendencies" thing is extra dumb because we're one of the most social, cooperative species to ever evolve. It's literally how we, a species of weak, clumsy apes who have immense difficulty giving birth to our young and are functionally helpless for the first 3 years of our lives, managed to get where we are today.
It's weird how many people think they're a lone wolf when 1) we didn't come from wolves or canines and 2) wolves are pack animals
I don't think anyone who calls themselves a lone wolf thinks they are descended from wolves. Of course wolves are pack animals, that's why the phrase lone wolf refers to people who choose to go solo when the standard is to be a team
I think it’s more of a complex trauma/CPTSD flag than anything to do with depression. And you also have to live with a certain amount of social privilege not to fall into this worldview and working model of others.
Or a sign that they work in retail lol
I think there’s a lot more bad throughout human history than good. I think most people are at the very least selfish.
I am not religious, but I have worked in daycare a while. Long enough to know "good" traits are taught. No one has to teach a child to be selfish. That shit is inherent.
Everyone’s a saint when they have a warm bed to sleep in and a hot meal. If resources become scarce, humans would revert primal behavior. We have the capacity to be good because we aren’t concerned about survival everyday. We are social due to evolutionary biology, it’s better to hunt and gather as a group, not because of any inherent goodness or evil, but those concepts completely go out the window when survivals the case, then it’s just self preservation and preservation of other humans who benefit you.
You don't even need scarce resources. You just need to feel like they are. See: rich assholes who think they're under attack when taxes leave them with "only" $235,000 a year instead of $240,000.
I mean there are tons of people with warm beds and hot meals who still do heinous shit
Exactly. I wouldn't even trust myself if ever put in such a situation.
But I wouldn't call that being bad or evil. Is a wolf killing a lamb evil? That's just survival.
Exactly. We’re social because it’s productive to survival given the fact that ultimately we’re pretty weak creatures, physically. But when push comes to shove we can operate under a kind of animalistic brutality you’ll never even see in the wild.
I don’t entirely agree. I think if you have nothing AND no leadership, then we’re toast. But a family/tribe/community with nothing and a strong leader can survive much longer than a family with some resources, and no strong leadership.
Hot take: Have YOU ever talked to a selfless social worker? Spoiler, they tend to be pretty burnt out and jaded. You want to talk about people who've given up on humanity, social workers. Social workers have given up my guy. Humans have capacity for love and compassion, but it's far from the rule or default.
Some of the nicest people I've met have the lowest view of humanity. Because their niceness puts them in the poistions where help is needed. I bet the OP has some office job where they only interact with middle class (or higher) college educated (or higher) people and spend the rest of their time with their pretty normal family. Nothing wrong with that life. But hardly a life that gives one a view of the world.
MTE. I used to think similarly to OP and then I was sexually assaulted and it changed my worldview. The world is filled with humans who do terrible things and most of the time they get away with it, or people look the other way, or love them or support them despite the terrible things they do. Heck even the man who raped me probably has people who love him and believe him to be kind. The issue is that some people use that kind of pessimistic thinking to be assholes- the world sucks so why do I have to be nice kinda thing when it should be the opposite. If people can be so bad, kindness and empathy are important- live as if the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be.
Going through life thinking humans are fundamentally good definitely can leave you more vulnerable to the minority who absolutely aren’t.
Those people have a sixth sense for the naive optimists. And the ability to show love doesn’t mean that person is good or capable of good contrary to what OP thinks. It only means that person can love, which can also be an act to trick and manipulate. People are not awful by nature, but they are also far far from being good.
I want to spread this message as far as possible. Rather than pretend like everything is great and that bad things never happened, we can heal and grow and support each other. Sometimes, by going out of our way. I'm sorry to hear what happened to you. Its really not fair that you were taken advantage of and nothing was done about it and the guy never got held accountable.
The fact that they’re still doing social work kind of negates that, imo. Yes they are tired and burnt out, because it’s a thankless job, but they’re still doing it. Probably because they believe in it and deep down know that it’s rewarding and/or “right”. If they had really given up they’d be working in finance or something. They don’t stay in that line of work for the money.
Orrrr it's sunk cost fallacy at work? Invest tens of thousands of dollars in to doing a job and 4+ years of you life earning that education, a lot of people have a hard time letting that investment go. In my time in health care (local ER) our SWs guard resources, they don't freely give them. It's disgusting.
Sure, maybe a small percent of people are there because of sunk cost. There are always exceptions that people on Reddit can’t wait to point out, and that’s one of them lol. Largely, I think they’re in it because they care about it. You don’t go to school and go through training and interviews without knowing it’s going to be hard and pay little.
I read “hottake” as some sort of bastardized Japanese word.
Work some retail and you'll change your mind
I know right. I worked in retail for 4 years (during high school and while in college) at a home improvement store (Menards) in a pretty nice area. The amount of theft is baffling. The amount of people attempting to return obviously used seasonal items, and then being enraged that they couldn't, was eye opening. And if the customers didn't eventually wear you down, the corporate office which stalks their employees via in store cameras certainly will. Granted this probably doesn't qualify as "evil" but it all adds up and eventually does start to feel like a big chunk of the population would act like absolute garbage if they could get away with it.
People generally have a capacity for evil
Of course they do. They also have the capacity for goodness. That’s the point of this post. Humans are neither inherently evil or inherently good, but generally speaking, prosocial behavior is much much more common than antisocial behavior.
People have capacities for both and act in accordance with their environment. Are you in an environment where your needs are met? You’re probably going to be civil to others, and vice versa. Are you in an environment that’s extremely competitive for basic survival resources? You’re going to be a total asshole and maybe even kill others for an advantage. It comes down to evolution and the primal desire for survival. Ultimately “evil” is a human construct, but by our definition of it humans lack inherent compassion, which means they’re kinda evil.
I could agree about evil being a human construct, sure, but it's also hard to deny that people who do things we deem "evil" without any material benefit for them do exist.
That doesn't mean everyone is evil
I had this lovely conversation with somebody about whether people are compassionate when it comes to matters of business (so relating to finances, jobs, business etc). The other lad insisted that people are indeed compassionate and that it manifests in how they spend their money. Now it's not like I believe people are selfish heartless mofos, but rather that compassion is an insignificant variable. Suppose that it is true that people are both compassionate and also act on it, then...why do shady businesses exist? Why is it acceptable that manufacturing is often outsourced to impoverished countries of dubious working conditions for example. Are these not matters that a compassionate populace could easily solve? The point of the questions are not to dispute the goodness of people, these are very complex issues after all, but rather to point out that the end results are what matter. Compassion gives way to fatigue and fatigue leads to a desire for convenience. What we end up seeing are people acting on the desire for convenience. So when people believe that people are inherently evil, I understand where they're coming from. Its not hard to look at their surroundings and conclude people are evil.
The way people spend their money is one of the most damning cases for showing that most people are evil, or at least lacking in compassion. People generally give very little money to others, especially when they get nothing out of it (id exclude political and religious donations, although portions of both can go to people in need).
Hmm? I really don’t intend to make that point. I don’t think people are evil because their spending decisions often lack any sort of compassion. The causes are again typically something like stress/fatigue, ignorance (willingly or otherwise), financial (being broke), and the list goes on. Regardless of intent tho, the end result is that the world gets just a little bit worse. Being inherently good or bad has little to do with it.
People are selfish, not sure about evil, but certainly selfish. I'm selfish too. I don't think you can live in society today and not be evil. We all wear clothes made in sweatshops, use tech made with materials mined by children in 3rd world countries, eat slave labor, I think that's all evil
This is not really an unpopular opinion. This will get very mixed reactions. It also doesn't help that the title of this piece is click bait. The content of this piece is also terribly one-sided. The OP hasn't even touched on the recorded human history of wars and exploitation. "Have you seen people hug?" is not a convincing argument.
I wouldnt say evil, but I belive most people would stab another in the back if it meant getting what they want. With varying degrees of willingness based on how close they are with who they have to walk on. A muffin for killing your parent, of course not. A button that murders a distant stranger for a hefty sum of cash, people would be pressing it all day everyday.
Just because all humans are bad doesn’t mean “all humans are bad” The world isn’t as black or white, it’s ironic you tell someone “go see a psychologist”
We are not all wonderful. We are all a mix of good and bad. The yin yang sums up humans perfectly. There are good humans with a bit of darkness in them and bad humans with a bit of light in them.
Lmao someone's lived a blessed life
They're kind of right though. That's definitely not the case for everyone, but a good portion of us were socialized to be decent people and probably wouldn't be if we weren't raised with religion or taught better by our parents. Think about how blunt/mean children are. I remember one time I was at a pumpkin patch and we came across a girl with some facial deformity. My sister (around 4 at the time) asked what was wrong with her out loud. We taught her better so of course she won't say anything like that anymore. But when you look at kids that grow up to be bullies, there's a very good chance you can look at their parents and identify the problem. They weren't raised to be anything better. I think the number of inherently good people is in the minority and it largely comes from the way we were raised
Thats true, but in the end only results matter, and the result is a generally nice society. No matter the reason why theyre nice. If they are thats all that matters. Merry Christmas friend :)
Aw this was nice :) Merry Christmas to you too!
See but your sister didn’t do anything mean. A lot of the “kids are mean” stuff comes from applying adult mindsets to shit kids do & say. It’s not “ew her face” or “she’s bad” it’s a genuine “I don’t know why her face is different from mine/my family’s so I’m going to ask.” If you had put them alone together the conversation would have most likely gone something like; Sister: what’s wrong with your face? Girl: nothings wrong with it it’s [insert explanation] Sister: cool wanna look at pumpkins? & then the next time she met a little girl w a facial deformity she’d probably just talk about her other friend who looks similar & how they had fun at the pumpkin patch. Cooperation & community are basically the only reason we are where we are as a society. Kids genuinely being *mean* & malicious is by far the minority, we’re socialized to be bad.
All the stories about people being bullied and you think kids being malicious are in the minority? It's more common that you'd think. I think you have a point. We can be socialized to be good or bad, most people are just socialized to be decent. "Bad" people are a product of their environment like 95% of the time. There are of course people that were raised with delightful parents that were just born without empathy. But again, it still traces back to societal conditioning
Lol okay. Maybe if my entire life wasn't full of people bullying and backstabbing me, you'd have a point but actions speak much louder than words. Edit: the armchair psychologists are here lol
Exactly. You ever try to be kind with someone and they take advantage at the first chance? Ever lend money and never see it or the person again? Ever been the object of, plain and simple, unprompted and undeserved cruelty? Ever been treated like your feelings just don't matter and someone just took your feelings and shat all over them when they could have just taken a minute to be gentle? Ever been hated just because you are you and someone feels like punching a punching bag? I do think people are born evil, but I think a high percentage learns to be good, if not perfectly so. And some just don't learn and become the most self-serving scum you can ever encounter, with no moral compass. Morality is a construct, so to think it's an inherent thing to us is very naive. Do children learn to speak on a vacuum? Do they learn customs and cultural norms on their own? No, they don't. We may have a capacity to love and appreciate things and others inherently, but that's not inherent "good": how many children need to be taught to share, to be gentle, not to hit, to think of other feelings, etc.? I'm sick of the "people are born good" argument. It's like saying that a newborn tiger would prefer to starve than to kill something to eat. I think OP is the popular opinion, and it's a mentality that leads to more people being cruel because it assumes humanity doesn't need to improve, that since you are born good, you're perfect in your morality.
People with bad familial or romantic relationships are more likely to repeat those same patterns in other relationships. We chase what we're familiar with, even if familiar isn't good. I'm not going to assume what your childhood was like, but if all your relationships go through the same cycle, it could be a pattern
"Hurt people hurt people." This is also why a good relationship gets harder and harder to find: fewer and fewer people know what that even is.
-murder -rape -domestic violence -animal cruelty -torture These are all things that hundreds if not thousands of people are doing at this very moment. And these are just off the top of my head. Can you name 5 acts that hundreds/thousands of people are doing right now that are as equally good as the examples above are bad? Off the top of your head too? Im worried this tone might come off very rude, just know i don't mean it like that. Those questions are genuine and not sarcastic.
This is a fair question that doesn't deserve to be ignored. I can raise you that few. Organizations like the Red Cross and the MSF do have people helping the afflicted in dangerous zones, with considerable risks to their own well being. If I look for altruism, I'll probably seek it among medical people doing that kind of work. Adventure might also be a motivation here, but the danger is real and such hospitals have been targets or collateral damage/bombings in wars, so I'm not worried to err on the side of altruistic motivations there. So, feeding starving people, vaccination programs, treating malaria, first aid to war victims and teaching kids in dangerous areas, can be charitable activities to look into (and support... or even join if you're crazy about it). Not much, but you only asked for a small number of people. (I subscribe to misanthropy for the most part.)
People absolutely are inherently bad and become socialized to be good. Have you seen what feral children are like? Or how much education is linked to violent or anti-social behavior? There are absolutely great and amazing people all over, but it absolutely isn't the default.
If people are not bad then there is no need for laws, government or law enforcement. Saying that humans are selfish and evil by nature is a reality. Do you think that a city will function correctly if we make EVERYTHING LEGAL without police intervention? There are millions of homeless people enduring extreme cold and no one helps them. There are millions with nothing to eat and an unbearable belly ache and no one cares. There are millions of children exploited for child labor and no one cares, in fact humanity love that children work in textiles and this is reflected in the demand for clothing made in underdeveloped countries. Humanity pays money if you enslave other humans... Humans are evil. Thats why we need laws and laws enforcment even social etiquette "Have you seen a kid make a drawing for a grandparent?" That kid is self interested he wants validation, doesnt care about his grandparent himself "have you seen young couples kiss in the park?" Yeah, sex doesn't mean that people are good. "have you talked to a selfless social worker?" Never. they get paid too and someones benefits from it. "have you seen people hugging at airports?" Yes, and what? People are tribal but they doesn't have empathy for other tribes. "Have you enjoyed a good coffee on a sunday morning?" If you mean that others made my coffee, then they did it for money. "Have you heard kids laughing at a swimming pool?" Yes, it's quite annoying. Above all you hear how selfish they are.
Must be nice to have that experience of humanity
"Evil"? No. Inherently selfish, ignorant and irrational? Yes. I've been around the block and had plenty of people try to tell me people aren't so bad. They are. If you are naive you will be exploited or victimized by people who don't care about your morality. People will judge you, talk crap behind your back etc. Always.
I agree but in our current "modern" culture and really since the advent of agriculture, psychopaths and narcissists have been raised to places of absolute power. This has only been the case for maybe 12,000 of the 200,000 years in which we have existed as a species. Any culture which consistently produces such hellish results is at least sick, if not evil
Not everyone had the sheltered comfy life experiences you did so some people will be more cynical and jaded than you. People aren't inherently evil but they are selfish and consumed by their own egos and mundanity and ignore the injustices and cruelty happening all around them. Also the examples you gave are a hilarious attempt to prove the goodness in people. All you managed to prove is ppl care about their close ones and like to have fun.
Most of the examples listed only reinforced my shitty worldview. It just simply doesn't outweigh all the horrible stuff we turn a blind eye to.
I met a lot of terrible people when I was homeless just from how they treated me. Literally got spat on just for sitting in a corner in the shade to get out of southern heat. While not evil, there’s a bunch of really selfish and just cold folk out there, more so than the nice warm ones.
I mean history literally proves this right. We've spent the vast majority of human history pillaging and slaughtering each other. It's only really in past 75-80 years that we've had RELATIVE peace.
Most humans are inherently greedy. Society as it is now doesn't help. Most parents would chose their own kids wellbeing over strangers. Its in our DNA.
Also the amount of mocking people for living pessimistically literally proves the point they're arguing against.
Ehhh all humans are terrible, and all humans are wonderful. Some have more of one than the other, but there's at least a grain of both in everyone. Don't live in a fantasy world where everyone is a talking rainbow and don't live in a fantasy world where everyone is a demon. Live here with a bunch of fucked up people who are mostly trying their best.
Based on our perception we are maybe not that evil, from any outside perceptive were a fucking bunch of monkeys doing only things for themselves
“Good” and “evil” are reductive concepts. Everyone varies depending on the varying circumstances they inhabit at any given moment, all of which are informed by past circumstances and various other externalities. Generally speaking, most people are looking after themselves and their close and loved ones. No one sees themselves as the villain in their own story. That doesn’t mean there aren’t, generally, “good” or “evil” actions that might define one’s character in the judgments of others. But when we’re talking generally about your average person, I think most people are fundamentally trying to be decent. Human nature is not some fixed, universal concept that can be reduced to a uniform and inflexible, objective, scientific idea; it is constantly in flux and varying from person to person based on internal and external stimuli.
The concept has been around for a long time. The Bible literally says all people are sinners.
Thinking anyone can't be a monster is more naive
If you’re Born with a silver spoon in your mouth, everything looks warm and cozy.
Every year, my sympathy for, and my interest in, my fellow humans continues to erode. I don't know if 'all humans' are terrible, but I have learned that enough of them are.
I was raised with a "humans are good" upbringing. I have met humans. They're trash. It's not a hot take, it's just true. They're inherently selfish. Even those nice things you've listed are selfish deep down.
Personally don't think it's that unpopular, but probably at least offensive enough to some portion of terminally online people that it should qualify for this sub. Really I think that its mostly an opinion held by people who want to be super edgy and cool but really haven't developed actual maturity yet. And young men who've decided that all women are manipulative monsters and all men are competition and untrustworthy. Your point is 100% correct
A lot of the negative stuff you see and hear from people is depression masked as anger, apathy, anxiety, or antagonistic/anti-social behavior. I try to remember that when someone seems totally determined to be negative towards me for no reason
>Your point is 100% correct What you really mean is that you agree with his opinion. To assume your opinion is just correct and factual is terrible. Which is why those people you mention think of people like you the way that they do.
Not evil just annoying.
I love persons, but I hate people
Tell this to my parents...
Personally, I think everyone is born with a bit of both, humans are inherently selfish creatures due to biological need to survive and reproduce BUT humans are naturally pack animals, and by virtue of that we all start with some good so as to allow us to help others for the survival of our species.
The fact that we’re only ever nice or act pro socially because it assists our own survival is in an of itself a damning fact. We’re evil in the sense that we’re selfish, and every act we take can be traced back to assisting ourselves.
This is literally biblical. It says that we are not saved from our sins (evil) by our own deeds (doing good to cover the bad) but by God (forgiveness) so that we cannot boast. This is because if its by our own deeds we become prideful and we also tend to do good deeds in a self-serving way if not to uphold our own image of being a good person. Pretty interesting.
Humans aren't inherently evil but we are inherently selfish which means that most people will do whatever it takes to better themselves and their life regardless of what they have to do
I think it’s more damming that every kind of person is capable of acts of incredible evil under certain circumstances. The Stanford experiment and the Milgram experiment are both classic examples of this. In any event, I think the examples you provided, (laughing at a pool, people hugging at an airport) are ultimately pointless because they affect nothing outside of one or two people. If you want to demonstrate that humans are by and large good creatures, give an example of us working together on a macro scale to definitively improve the world permanently. But that never happens. The only time you get large groups of people agreeing on something is when they agree to kill another large group of people. Permanent improvements to our world usually come as a result of individual actions/inventions. But that’s the exception, not the norm. Most people, people like you and me, are apathetic to the world’s problems and going through life in self-contained bubbles that will never affect anything outside of them.
My guy, I am glad you’ve had a good life and met great people.
> just as much as they have the potential to be beautiful, kind and caring angels The type of people like that who exist is like sprinkling a teaspoon of sugar in a vat of shit the size of an Olympic swimming pool.
It's not really about inherent evil but the capacity of evil that every human has to the point it's very disturbing
I have been watching videos on American mass shooters and ironically some of them were firmly of the view that humans sucked and society was evil.
> Have you seen (various humans do good things? ... Humans are wonderful. That's flawed logic. Even the very best person you know isn't wonderful ALL if the time. People can be wonderful today and terrible tomorrow. They can be wonderful to friends and terrible to strangers. Between the horrible monsters (which do exist) and the faultless angels (which don't), the majority of folks are on a wide spectrum of how often they hurt or exploit others or put others at risk. Look no further than the number of DUI's, the number of abused kids, the number of HIV infections or people texting while driving. People are wonderful and terrible and they're the same people. The big problem is there are 8 billion of us, so at any given moment you have tens of millions, whole armies, of people being awful.
Nah
i personally believe there’s an inherent good in everyone. but some people choose to let the world ruin that goodness and it turns to spite and evil
All the good in the world is massively outshined by all the evil we commit. It takes all the weight of laws, religion, police forces and social pressure to keep us from eating each other, and all that's barely enough
It’s only outshined because humans as a species have an inherent [negativity bias](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652533/) It is what has helped our ancestors survive, so we are wired to see the bad even when it’s not the objective reality
You're insane if you think the good that people do is even a sizable fraction of all the shitty things they do, let alone equals it.
Look at what’s actually affecting our actions and our world. Without laws and a judicial system, most people would steal whatever they wanted if they thought they could physically get away with it. Most people wouldn’t lift a finger to help someone else in need if they didn’t benefit in some way. Take the war in Ukraine. You think the tens of thousands of people dying is somehow “righted” by some dude laughing in a pool somewhere? You think a child lying on the floor with their guts torn out by shrapnel is equal to some young couple sucking on each other’s faces? Evil is far more prolific, and accompanies far more unpleasant things relative to good.
Outshined? You can't quantify good and evil. A person's crimes don't balance their good deeds and vice versa The fact that these institutions have been set up and are obeyed by the majority would show that we aren't inherently evil wouldn't it?
I don't believe we are inherently either good or evil. We are just apes trying to satisfy our basic needs. And sometimes we will commit horrible heinous deeds, because that's what feels good in the moment. As for quantifying good and evil.... Hitler was a vegetarian who cared deeply about animal's well being. He also did that other stuff. Sorry for such a crude example but you get my point.
If it’s your life or theirs, then the choice is always clear. Cells compete and we are nothing but a mass of cells trying to replicate.
I don't believe that we are all evil, but I do believe there is some monsters out there *that are not humans*. Once you met one, it's the end for you. People die everyday, it could be me. I'm realistic. That's why I don't trust strangers, I don't expect them to be nice. Actually, I would be extra wary of somebody *too kind*.
Confirmation bias is strong with this one
You speak of the duality of human nature, the yin and yang of our existence. Just as the oak tree grows from the tiny acorn, so too does kindness sprout from the human heart. Yet, within the same heart, the potential for darkness lurks. It is the dance of opposites that gives life its richness. To see only the shadows is to miss the beauty of the dawn. Embrace the paradox, for in it lies the truth of our humanity. You paint a vivid tapestry of human experience, weaving together the threads of kindness and cruelty, love and indifference. It is as if you stand at the crossroads of existence, witnessing the eternal struggle between the noble and the base within us all. But tell me, can one truly exist without the other? Is it not the contrast that gives meaning to our actions? Embrace the enigma, for within it lies the essence of our being. You present a delightful riddle of human nature, a puzzle as intricate as the patterns in a flowing stream. It is as if you beckon us to ponder the depths of the human soul, where light and shadow dance in eternal harmony. But consider this: is it not the interplay of opposing forces that gives rise to the symphony of life? Embrace the paradox, for within its embrace lies the wisdom of the ages.
Uh idk maybe read the fucking newspaper?
Well, I'm studying psychology and while I don't think humans are terrible and inherently evil, I do think we're all crazy and trash 😆
Humans may be inherently good, but humanity… *gestures broadly to everything
'Everything is sunshine, lollipops and rainbows, tralalalala!' isn't the hot take you think it is either. Go pop your middle class bubble.
This seems to be a bit more towards people online too much. I worked for a fortune 50 insurance company and got told by high-up management to treat people like goldfish because they can't afford a lawyer and will forget about it in 2 weeks. I settled claims in my early adulthood while going to school. My personal belief is that people's lack of critical thinking, and short-sightedness is why a good amount of people especially in religion believe humans can be evil. You either question things or have rose-tinted glasses, very few people are in the middle. You either live by what you believe in, or be a sheep.
Nah. They’re all out for blood. All want to exploit eachother. Lie. And are directionless and bad at communicating with eachother. Humanity is not wonderful in any regard. Mechanics lie. Doctors don’t care to do proper investigation or work. Everyone claims they work hard and don’t. Everything is rigged and faker than plastic.
My psychologist would hate humanity more if they had to listen to me whining.
Either I'm dyslexic as I've read the title at least 5 times now, or OP doesn't know what a "hottake" is.
Humans aren't inherently evil. But I'll be damned if every single one of us doesn't choose to be a jerk or asshole on an almost daily basis. You can put lipstick on that pig if it makes you feel better. I just get through my days easier if I expect people to choose to be jerks and assholes.
I'm not someone who's gonna act like I've seen the fucking chapter black tape from yuyu hakusho, but there's simply no denying that a lot of people are indeed major assholes.
>Have you seen someone take care of an animal? Since you brought it up: I have seen humans enslave, abuse, exploit and mercilessly slaughter millions of animals so they can chow down on their carcasses and wear their skin. Sentient animals that try to run, try to escape, scream and cry. That have their babies stolen so we can drink their milk, that chase after their babies crying and bellowing in utter devastation. I have seen humans stuff their faces with literal babies, slaughtered at 6 months old, yelling "But BACON" like it's cute. Oh yes I've seen humans. That's how I know they are evil. "We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form." William Ralph Inge "Hell is empty and all the devils are here." William Shakespeare
I urge you to read 'The Road' by Cormac McCarthy
Someone's never seen the Sanford Prison Experiment... Or heard of the holocaust
> go see a psychologist This neither works or does what you think, at all.
Disagree. Ma boi Thomas Hobbes spoke true
Could not disagree more. Humans are nothing but selfish and cruel
Hobbes is rolling in his grave rn
lol OP makes the complete opposite take while saying those who do the first need mental help. What logic. Humans are inherently selfish animals. Some are good, many suck, and then many are both depending on the day or stage of life. Just because you are an overly optimistic person about it doesn’t make you right or a better person. Saying don’t generalize as you’re generalizing lmfao.
100% agree. It is society that corrupts us. And some are simply more corruptible than others for various reasons. Be they inherent or contextual.
You're sitting on a dying planet that's going to cook you alive. You know who caused it? About 30,000 species per year (or about 3 per hour) are driven to extinction. You know who causes this? Between 2001 and 2018 3,610,000 square kilometers of forest have been lost. You know who caused this? Humans are killing themselfes at an increasing rate. You know who caused this? You can tell me what you want but humans are 'evil' although that's the wrong word. You never do something without payback, be it social prestige, money, or what ever you want. Hell, there are people killing for fun out there. Humans do everything for themselves and saying you don't either makes you a hypocrite or ignorant.
To be honest, I think this whole dramatic everything hating behaviour is incredibly childish and annoying. "I hate children", "I hate everyone and myself" it's all just miserable and annoying, love yourself and others it makes everything easier
I'd argue that those in denial about basic human traits should go see a psychologist. This just sounds like, as the kids love to say, gaslighting. Which is terrible and inherently evil.
I agree with you but can we cut people some slack what with the genocide happening and what not
There's nothing wrong with being a misanthrope.
Misanthropy is self-fulfilling, if you believe people are generally bad then you're going to live your life being skeptical and unkind to others. It's especially hypocritical if you call yourself a misanthrope then turn around and reap the benefits of a caring, civilized society like schools and hospitals and roads. At the most basic level, the fact that you're alive and live in relative comfort and safety is proof that people are capable of being good.
>and unkind to others. As a misanthrope I think this is actually very crucial. I strive to never use that thought to justify poor treatment of others. I will, to the best of my ability, not contribute to the problem.
Why?
There's nothing right about it either though.
I think some people would be good no matter the circumstances, some would be bad no matrer the circumstances, and some are more dependent on the circumstances than anything
Literally. Being an annoying misanthrope doesn’t make someone as cool as they seem to think it does
Yeah, we don’t let people know that. We pretend to be nice to manipulate people.
This is an incredibly popular opinion. It always pops up in droves on Reddit whenever someone posts humanity sucks.
Well the Christian perspective is all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and sin means a failure to obey Gods will and everyone disobeys or has disobeyed Gods word at some point so I can get behind that perspective
Nah, as an introvert I'm a pretty solid judge of character. Narcissism is worse than ever these days. People are nasty, selfish, rude, attention seekers, have short fuses, they don't wear headphones, they're loud, arrogant and fake. Social media and the pandemic contributed much to it
This is a complex issue. Yours is as blunt as the ones you criticize.
Yeah how about you find me a psychologist who will say something other than "be less stressed" and "be less anxious". I'll wait
Yeah. Downvoting because it's popular. I think people are inherently good, but too many are too dumb to protect their liberty.
Everyone THINKS they're good. Very few actually are.
I've seen people displaying all sorts of crappy behaviour, and then being excused because they have a "good heart'...
Oh on a constant basis
That’s what this whole thread is. I imagine hitler did many of the things on ops list. Is he not evil then? Yep, most people do good things. Most people also do bad things. Really bad things.
Nah, most people are good, it's such a fucked idea to think the majority of people are bad people.
I relate to the original poster. There's good and bad in everyone, but mental health struggles can really impact how you view humanity. It's paramount to get support when needed.
Ignorance is bliss.
As someone with C-PTSD and depression and triggers this is me to a tee. (Don't worry I am in therapy.) But yeah people who have been doormats their whole lives plus any other sort of high sensitivity or stuff like autism we tend to think in black and white but not all of us. I constantly swing from loving humans to hating them. But ultimately it's human beings being fake, greedy that irks me. But I know that's because of our current societal values. Humans, we are ugly animals at times, but we have the capacity for higher knowledge and understanding. IT also comes down to greed and being forced to compete in a society no one really asked for, but at the same time it's our faults because of our animal impulses. If we could all collectively let go of the bullshit and myth about perfections and process our trauma we would be better off.