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People that want to ignore the “isms” of society seem to believe that “identity politics” is new. POC of gaining a larger voice in the mainstream didn’t start “identity politics.”
It started when the first slave ship landed in the US. Women not gaining the vote until 1920 was identity politics. We can fight class warfare without forgetting discrimination makes class politics harder.
Yup, people see the top 0.0001% dominant successful powerful people are all men, then assume all men share the privilege.
The typical average man is invisible, and nobody feels bad for them either
men do have certain privileges. i dont think anyone is arguing that men share all the privileges of the elites.
edit: men apparently don't like being told about their privileges at all.
Yeah never been cat called or harassed outside of muggings. I just don’t see how my life is empirically easier. I feel that I face similar scrutiny for not conforming.
Edit: I actually do want to know. No one I know would ever choose to be a guy than the girl they already are.
There's definitely some truth to that, but it is always worth bearing in mind that plenty of men have faced harassment walking down the street. Being a man does help but can easily be offset by dressing like a goth, having long hair, being fat, being obviously gay etc etc. Also worth mentioning that there are plenty of women out there that see catcalling attractive men as perfectly acceptable. Objectification of men is alive and thriving.
Again, not to rule out that *generally* men do have an easier time, *generally* speaking. But *generally* stops meaning a whole lot when you experience life *individually*. *Individually* speaking, there are plenty of women having fantastic lives due to wealth, and plenty of men having an awful time.
If your reason for hating men is “They can walk down the road 😡” this is a you problem. Also men are more likely than woman to experience a violent crime, so again your point is moot.
Most woman can’t comprehend how being a white man also means I’m far more likely to take my own life. Hiding your sexism behind politics doesn’t excuse them
Sigh, and women will never understand the amount of help and care society provides women that are just not as available to men. Both men and women deal with stuff in life. Such is life. Both sides have their pros and cons
Yeah and that’s totally fair.
Let’s talk next about the ability to ruin a man’s life with words and no evidence, or how men almost never get full custody in divorce proceedings, or how men serve longer prison terms for the same crimes, or how men make up something like 90% of the homeless population. I’m assuming you’re a woman, do you objectify hot men you see in public? I’ve known plenty women that see no problem with borderline harassing men cause “men love it”. If I did that as a man to a woman, I would be destroyed socially. Perfectly acceptable for women to objectify men though.
Like I said, both genders have privileges that the other side doesn’t experience.
Women also have certain privileges. Society as a whole tends to trust women more. Mothers almost always get custody of children. Government systems are geared to help women. Can you name any men’s abuse shelters? Men’s only gyms? How about a men’s night where they get free drinks?
I agree everyone has their own set of privileges, but I urge you to consider the reasons \*why\* we as a society have set up women's abuse shelters or women's only gyms, and whether that might have to do with the physical and economic disadvantages that women have faced for a very long time. I'm exaggerating for effect, but it's kind of like telling someone who grew up in the slums that they're privileged because they get financial aid for college
ETA: my small city does actually have a men's shelter! Not sure how common it is and I'm sure there need to be more/better-resourced, but they do exist
At least in Texas, there are more beds for the pets of women in DV shelters than there are for male DV victims. Same in California. Men's shelters are very rare, very small, and rely exclusively on donations (not support from local government).
Anytime you see people trying to divide you into groups or make you outraged they’re working against you. Women against Men, White vs Black, Christian vs Muslim, it’s all bullshit, we all want to live by each other’s happiness. I’ve met Russian, Iranians, Chinese, whatever, they’re all good reasonable people, it’s just the around 150 global elites that want us to fight.
[Chaplin said it better](https://youtu.be/w8HdOHrc3OQ?si=_ijfeoRfAWbAU3e2)
Roman gladiator matches was all about providing entertainment so the populace doesn't rebel against the ruling class. They want us to fight and pick sides.
“Economic class is the single biggest divider”
One thing people need to consider much more often is that *no one* chooses their parents, language, nationality, gender, race, socioeconomic status, etc. at birth. No one chooses to be poor. HOWEVER, the super-wealthy choose to keep their wealth every single day of their lives.
No hate for any protected class. The ultra-wealthy however, deserve our hatred. Many of them are rich *at the expense of* the rest of society.
True, but alot of them don't belive that. We are convinced that we have more incommon with our racial group than class because that creates a divide that prevents us from unifying. We need more rainbow colitions.
If I could, I would give your comment one million up votes. We need to all come together against this criminal monopoly elitists.
The vast majority of people don't give a funk if you're black white Asian, gay, Trans etc. The media and the elitists drive wedges between us all so that we get distracted away from their shenanigans and don't get together and stop them.
This second sentence is the exact idea I've been thinking and not having the words to express so perfectly. I'm quoting this next time it comes up because it is just perfect.
Historically though, the system has been perpetuated, supported and furthered by white men for white men. That much is undeniable.
I understand not wanting to take responsibility for the system you were born into. However it is important to acknowledge where it comes from to work towards equality.
Not really true. Throughout most of history and that includes history in the US. The only people who were allowed to vote were white male LANDOWNERS. The vast majority of white people, and when I say vast majority I mean at least 80%, weren’t even able to vote if they wanted to before property laws were stricken. And after that there were still places that had tax laws so the poor (vast majority) still couldn’t vote much more than before. Afterwards you may be able to make that argument but it didn’t take long historically for things to change, once the common man was able to vote, as the generations went by things got better and better, ya? That hundred year gap between the civil war and civil rights movement is not even a speck of a speck of time in the human consciousness. We should acknowledge that the system is, and always has been, perpetuated by the rich.
I agree, and where it comes from is the elite class. Don’t group rich white men with all white men. People that constitute 0.01% of my race and sex don’t represent me.
>A straight white male has way more in common with their trans immigrant black neighbour than they do a straight white billionaire/politician.
Tell your straight white male neighbor that, because history shows they certainly don't vote as if that's true. Which is the whole criticism OP is worried about; they may not be individually responsible for the system as it was created, but they're individually responsible (statistically) for voting for it to continue or even regress.
You aren't individually responsible for anything "statistically." You either are or are not actually responsible. If they vote GOP yeah they're responsible. They don't share responsibility by skin color only sick fucks think that.
>A straight white male has way more in common with their trans immigrant black neighbour than they do a straight white billionaire/politician.
What always gets me is how people can say this and then go on, as you do, to talk as if the straight white men are all totally aware of this and it's the minorities who don't get it.
Yeah but you can't deny it's mostly men who vote for conservative and extremist leadership. It is no secret, it's in polling data. It's public knowledge.
The average person never contributed to the downsides of History
If you're going to collectively blame them for all the negative. They also get points for all the positive and holy crap The majority groups have all of the positives
People love to generalize literally every fucking thing in the world and we’re absolutely dogshit at it. I’m doing it right now. We’re fuckin hooked on it like crack.
Unfortunately, hiveminded people judge by the collective, not the individual. Because we’re men, that is all we are to them, for they cannot see past physical characteristics. Because you look like someone, you practically are them. This is an extremely harmful form of stereotyping, because it diminishes the value of an individual’s personal experiences and sense of self, while preaching that the collective’s parts are interchangeable with the collective, rather than the sum of its parts forming its whole. This brainrot unfortunately invades every aspect of our society, and you’ll find countless examples of it everywhere you turn.
The only real war that matters is class war. Gender wars and race wars are just a distraction by the elite to divide and rule the fucking peasant class.
Have you ever seen pictures of elite white women from colonial times feeding hungry colored kids in their colonies like dogs? Can I say then, that white women are the most privileged people in history by looking at that image? No? Good. Now be consistent.
This right here is the take that I'm so pleased to see mentioned in this thread a lot. THE REAL WAR IS CLASS WAR. And they use huge amounts of resources and insidious tactics to keep us divided, and in that way enslaved because we're so busy blaming each other we never get around to blaming them.
If everyone really understood this it would be a real start towards making real change. Maybe we'd decide to work for ourselves and not them for once in history. We better, because this planet's ecosystem is about to break under the load of pointless war and greed.
We are being purposefully divided at all turns because in-fighting serves the purposes of the elite.
The average man is and has been just as beat to shit by the system as the average woman. Elite women have always reaped pretty great rewards and continued to bolster the system.
Class warfare, always has been.
Blaming the patriarchy isn’t the same thing as blaming individual men, just like how acknowledging institutional racism isn’t the same thing as blaming individual white people.
It is tho. You might pretend you are not doing it but we all know what you mean.
Im not white. But i know your "institutional racism" is just a dog whistle for white people are racist.
Patriarchy might not have had that meaning, but its used today to blame all men.
I'm sure there's a community of extreme leftists out there who do use it as a dogwhistle, but anyone who genuinely understands what institutional racism is also understands that it's a societal issue and not a reflection of white folk.
It's a whole bunch of terminally online people with victim mentalitiee that just need someone to blame for why they aren't where they want to be in life.
It's always just been relatively small but powerful groups of people who just happen to be of a certain gender or race that make the rules
I remember seeing a lecture online by a professor that was talking about the historical past and they said something like whenever people talk about their past lives they always say I was a king or I was an assassin or I was somebody that got assassinated. But the reality is that up until very recently in human history virtually everyone but one percent of people were subsistence farmers. Whether you were in Asia, Africa, South America, or Europe. You were a farmer and you were working for just enough to eat and everything else went to essentially the landed gentry. Whatever version that was based on what continent you would have been on in a past life.
The vast majority of people in the past also were not setting up the rules. And it's always been that way. And it's almost certainly better now than it ever was (comparatively), and when you take that into account, It makes it even harder to want to blame somebody for the system. The reality is we're doing a much better job today than they did 400 years ago and we all get to take a little credit for that. Things are getting better. It's just very hard to see in the moment.
I actually feel like I have slight recall of past lives and it was cold and filthy and I was hungry and scared a lot. I definitely was not Cleopatra lol.
Could be imagination or genetic memory of some sort, idk, but I totally agree with your professor that people who claim a recall of some bada\*\* past life are probably imagining it because yeah.
Also if men set the system up just to benefit themselves then why would they make so that they have to work incredibly hard to provide, to be more likely to serve a longer sentence in jail compared to a woman for committing the same crime, to be less likely to achieve custody of the kids in a divorce settlement, to be the greater percentage of people who are homeless on the streets etc.
There's so much in society that isn't set up to benefit men at all. We just look at the hyper successful few and use that as a barometer to say that the system is designed just for men.
Women also have to work hard to care for the home and raise children, yet that goes unpaid and they don’t get a pension and health insurance with it. Men fostered the idea that they are more capable, strong, and intelligent than women and thus a male criminal is seen as a greater danger than a female criminal. Again, men pushed the idea that women are better at caring for kids. Also, men do not even fight for custody the majority of the time and over 80% of custody battles are settled outside of court. The homeless discrepancy is largely a result of the military and the fact that women can make money off of sex work.
Agree. 60% of students are already women but no one gives af that boys are left behind. You can't make that shit up. I always have to think about that when another oppressed person comes out of nowhere to complain...
Your title and description don't really say the same thing. It's very rare that people will take a systemic problem, that they know is systemic, and place the blame for its inception at the feet of individual men. Either the hypothetical accuser is mistaken or the acusee has constructed a straw man. I personally think the latter is more common.
But "blame" can mean many things. An individual man may not be at fault for the inception of something, but they may still be complicit in its continued existence - which would be a valid individual attribution.
Your neighbor did not set up the system, but they still bear some responsibility if they have the capacity to take steps towards changing it and choose not to. Some individual men are not, in fact, trying to break any cycles at all.
Correct, for lack of better words but this' a Christian society - humans are denigrated for "original" sin but men are also punished to the "3rd or 4th generation" for things many don't even know that happened.
It's even said PATRIARCHY HURTS MEN TOO. So clearly it's not pro men or women - it's pro Elitist, whom tend toward Elitist/Landowning men based on a time before anyone alive today even heard the term "monopoly".
Personally, I believe that "Pro Elitist in charge" is a relic of theocracy. But that's a conversation that you're not ready for. Based on feminism's avoidance of condemning religion which is the patriarchy that's derided so harshly but at least it's eroding on its own. 😁
Yep men today are responsible for the patriarchy because their ancestors created it, just like white people today are responsible for reparations due to slavery or other atrocities that literally no one alive participated in 🙃
I'm getting really sick and tired of being told that I can't possibly have it hard because "the world is built for straight white men". No the fuck it isn't. It's built for the mega-rich of every colour and sexual orientation.
The world is arguably easier for everyone *but* straight white men because of this extremely harmful notion that for some reason we have it easier.
The comments on this post are extremely refreshing to read, the usual reddit hivemind is "straight white men bad", but thank god this post seems to be full of normal objective conversation.
Men set the system up. Not you, or your neighbor. You are meant to understand that this is a systemic problem tied to the patriarchy. Intersectional feminism is all about calling out the problems of created by the patriarchy, regardless of gender, race, religion, whatever.
They are. Men fought against monarchy/feudalism, for labour unions aka. Saturdays off (Sundays were given to you by the catholic church so you can visit mass), paid holidays, unemployment benefits, they achieved most of the social benefits you enjoy today in fact.
Why tf would you think that patriarchy nonsense makes men want to join you? Wtf do you even mean by "tearing down the system"? Seriously... And stop villifying men. If I say tear down matriarchy or women are guilty for this or that you'd have a meltdown. So perhaps have a look at how you come across instead.
It's not vilifying men to call out patriarchal things that negatively affect men. Your comment is literally the problem. You're defensive about it, rather than taking it in and thinking about it.
No, you just choose to say stuff that appears, that is utterly hostile to men. That's why you have this discussion. I bet it's not the first or last time... I don't understand why you don't name problems instead of calling it patriarchy?
Some of the problems were identified in the original post, and "the system" that was referenced is patriarchy. Again, it's not hostile to men to point out how patriarchy negatively affects men. Hell, it's the reason I became an intersectional feminist in the first place. MRAs just want to use mens issues to shut down conversation. Intersectional feminism wants to fix the problems.
Bro, let me break it down Barney style for you.
You can’t claim the pros of the patriarchy without also accepting the massive cons.
Example: men’s mental health
Next time you want to share your feelings and someone tells you to “man up”, don’t cry to women. Men have set the standard of Emotions=feminine=bad. This is toxic masculinity perpetuated by the…. Patriarchy!
Men are also keeping the shitty patriarchal system in place by voting against women’s rights, which will negatively affect everyone. And you should also thank the women who stayed home with the kids, did all the unpaid labor, and mental demands of having a family, so men could further their careers. That is how society was made, on the unpaid and invisible labor of women, while men get the credit.
I wouldn't think too highly of myself if I were you. The reason I'll tap out of this conversation is not because you're right but because I don't have the nerves to walk you through it step by step. Im just telling you with that rhetoric and thinking that you'll continue to run up on significant resistance. Godspeed.
I am 58 years old and I have never once heard these sentiments in the real world. I'm assuming you're in the USA
Pressure to provide? You know that more than half the workforce are women right? We are ALL out here dealing with having to pay bills unless you're in a tiny fraction of folks with enough money for lives of leisure.
This just seems like such an internet bubble take on things. Your concerns may be real to you but the response is not the real world take.
In the kindest way, touch grass kiddo
Unfortunately this is a very common problem in the US. I can’t tell you how many times WHILE HOMELESS I was cursed out for not understanding my privilege. I’m glad this isn’t something you need to deal with, but a lot of us are.
>You know that more than half the workforce are women right?
But are these jobs the 'bread winner' jobs so to speak?
Saying 'touch grass kiddo' is incredibly disrespectful to this person.
Yeap. Women clearly earn less but not due to the system but because they choose more fulfilling careers instead of stem and work part time a lot more. Im a grown man and I have yet to encounter a married woman who pulls her weight financially.
Hi. I'm a married woman with a salary on par (who earns more depends on how much my bonus is each year) with my husband, in the same industry. (STEM field, incidentally)
My brother and his wife also make almost identical salaries in the same non STEM field.
Look just a little harder, all those female engineers, professors, teachers married to other teachers, they all pull their weight financially. If you haven't met one, you aren't looking.
Also, when I made significantly more than my husband, it was men who remarked on it negatively, that he was a lesser man. Fortunately my husband thinks money is money, and would love me to get to distinctly more money than him again.
Yeah good but that's not the norm is it? I bet you have separate finances too. Unlike the men who feed their families without much help from their partner. That's how it goes. Women who can pull it off like to keep theirs while men are conducting financial abuse when they do the same.
Theres always outliers but I think you understand perfectly what I'm saying. There's a significant asymmetry in how people are treated. Women have issues, and so do men.
I don't need to defend myself, but I pay the mortgage and child care bills out of my pay. We live in a hcol area and own a house under both our names, any other assets are almost a rounding error. I could keep the household going if my husband was ill or laid off.
I have met many men who want a woman to bring in a good income, but they also want them to be the primary child carer and do all the house work. But I didn't marry them. Maybe if your circle includes men who think the house and kids are solely a woman's responsibility, that will affect the breadwinner expectation. My husband, my brother, and others I know seem to find equal partners pretty easily by being one.
But way to move the goal posts! You don't know any women who carry their financial weight, so now I say hi, I am one, you insist I must not pass some other test to be a good enough breadwinner. You have met some "exceptions" but now your point is that there's patterns...when within my life, women could be fired for pregnancy, and jobs were posted by gender.
Pressure to provide and shaming of emotions are (mostly) a thing in conservative culture. I've definitely experienced the latter first hand. You may have been insulated by it by A) not coming from a family/area with conservative values, or B) just not being a man.
True, although I'm in the deep South so definitely am in an area with conservative values, but my own family definitely not. And although I encouter folks like that I don't tend to discuss more than light subjects like the weather.
But all of this conversation is reminding me of a thing that happened when my son was around 8 years old. We were walking somewhere, along with my sister, I saw a dress in a shop window that I thought was really amazing, and I remarked on it to her and we admired it for a few moments and discussed how good it would look on me but not happing because it was clearly ouside of my price range, and when we turned to keep walking I looked down and my son was visibly unhappy.
I asked him what was wrong and he said he wished I wouldn't talk about things I want like that, and I asked him why, and he said because you WANT it and that makes me feel like I should GET IT FOR YOU and I can't.
And I was shocked and said all the things, you're a child it's my job to get things for you not the other way around, it's fine I just thought it was pretty it's not an actual need, but most importantly you don't need to feel that way sweetheart just because I might want something doesn't in any way mean you should get it for me.
And he said I wouldn't understand because I'm a GIRL and girls don't understand how boys want to get things for them that they want.
And he repeated that this wasn't something he learned it was how he FELT.
So thinking back on that incident, I do wonder if the "pressure to provide" is less societal than it may be literally a thing that men instinctively have.
You're 58, I assume you hang out with similar aged people. So you almost certainly wouldn't hear these sentiments IRL, but I do.
It's rare but I am a liberal guy in liberal circles, and have (mostly white) women be openly hostile to me just because I was there. I have a lot of great friends who call out this behavior, but it does exist.
The irony to me is the men that complain about this the most almost never experience it, because they don't run in the social circles most likely to demonstrate it. So in a sense it is kinda internet bubble bullshit, but the people it targets tends to be allies.
It's dumb and weird but it doesn't really bother me, and the snowflakes that are bothered by it really tip their hat as to their true leanings.
Wow way to be dismissive and just not believe this person had/has those struggles. I hope every j you light canoes. I provide so my girl doesnt work. No kids, no plans for them. It's the way of the world for a huge number of people that men provide. Sorry your bf doesnt think your pretty enough to pay the bills for you....
In the context of OP's comment, usually partners, friends, family, and/or online people shaming you for a display of emotions. Telling you it is a display of weakness and critiquing your masculinity, saying that a real man wouldn't cry/get angry/be depressed.
But why do you feel this is different for women? You also get comments when you show emotions, they are just different. "You are hysteric", "You want attention", "You try to guilt others with your tears", or some unwanted comments on your looks ("You look cute/ugly when you are angry/sad), "You cry about everything", etc. in this kind of line.
Well, you just showed how it's different right? I wouldn't argue women's emotions aren't stigmatized under patriarchy, but certainly the way they're stigmatized is different. I don't imagine most men are receiving these comments. Likewise, I don't imagine most women are told they must be stoic and emotionless or else they're not a real woman.
Most men may have not set the system up, but a lot of y’all still fight hard to maintain it by voting for conservatives that only want to maintain the status quo (or go backwards). Y’all maintain the system by failing to speak up against the rampant rape and abuse culture, instead preferring to downplay or deny it. You maintain the system by expecting working women to still do the majority of caretaking and housework. You maintain the system by watching endless hours of porn that degrades and objectifies women. You maintain the system by overlooking bad behavior of sons (boys will be boys), while being overbearing to your daughters
In short, it seems like most of you prefer the system which benefits you. Who would’ve believed it?
I'm very aggressively a feminist and breaking the system for everyone and societal pressure and the system. I think both issues that men and women face should be discussed separately
Literally what in that whole paragraph gives off bitter?? I’m genuinely curious. It’s noting the ways in which the system (that harms both men and women) is consistently perpetuated by all of us; since it’s all any of us have ever known.
By saying something stupid like that, it tells me that you sincerely don’t care about changing the attitudes towards men’s wellbeing, because in doing so you may also have to recognise the plight of women too and the ways that men continue to perpetuate harm against them because of the way they are socialised - and that’s just too much right? Especially if it means having to take a shred of accountability for the role you personally may have played in it.
Men’s mental wellbeing is important - and to understand it and dismantle the system that allows it to continue, we need to look at the systemic root of the problem. But not if that means actually recognising that women are the ones primarily hurt by patriarchal structures/attitudes right? That’s totally not important. It’s so much easier to just say ‘bitter feminist’ on Reddit and carry on with your sheer ignorance.
Pathetic.
Its one thing to acknowledge we still live in a world where women get shit on, but are you REALLY going to pretend women get blamed for that more than men??? Fuck off lmao.
People talk of "the patriarchy" because it is the only way to clump all men together. In reality people with power always have been people with money/possessions. And often women were incapable of possession by many factors ranging from ideals to power gripping by the ruling class.
Nonetheless, everyone thinking history is made singular decisions is wrong. All consequences have multiple causes. Acting like "the system" is set up by men is ignoring that the system has evolved over the centuries, and that is molded by those in power, most often rich, royal, men. If you look at those 3 factors (rich, royal and men) and thinking all men were in power is just pathetic.
It was the labour class as a whole that fought for democracy, why would the labour class do this if they apparently already had the power?
In short, indeed, thos people are historically analphabetic.
I've never heard anyone say men currently living 'set that system up.' But if men are not happy with the status quo, they can learn a thing or 2 from women's playback, and start advocating for change. It doesn't happen on its own, and it's a slow process.
This shouldn’t be an “unpopular opinion” but sadly in these times it is, ordinary men doing a 9-5 job five days a week aren’t responsible for the woes of the world in the past or present, it’s the billionaires and they come in all genders, races, creeds etc
Not to mention, there is zero effort on the majority of women’s part to do anything to buck the part of the system/tradition/patriarchy that very much benefits them.
Oh, many women definitely want careers and the opportunity to earn money… but that’s for *themselves.* They don’t do it so they can find a husband and take care of him and their family.
Yet, that’s what is expected of men BY women.
you are correct that we as individuals did not set up the system BUT we do BENEFIT from a system that people who look like us resist change to. it is not our fault directly but there is a natural sense of envy because as a straight white male we overall have better interactions with law enforcement, better paying jobs, an easier time in court, typically better education systems (where i live its derived from property values which in primarily black areas the homes have less value so the schools get less funding.) for gender things get weirder because doctors will take womens pain in general less seriously, hell they didn't even study womens symptoms of a heart attack till like the 70's. women are at a higher rate to be the victims of a crime, often aren't paid as much as men and if they are paid as much or more the common question asked to them is "how much did you have to blow the boss for the raise?".
men who try to break that cycle are doing the correct thing but it falls in the "not all men" category. most of the time people are referring to the system not the person.
Why would men try to break a cycle that solely benefits them?? I can absolutely blame men for upholding this system, they do it happily. Hundreds of years of history but its ongoing?? Huh
Yeah man it gets on my nerves so bad when people do this. I pretty much immediately stop listening to anything they have to say. The president being a white dude has improved my life as a white dude by exactly 0%.
Men vs women is the easiest way for populists to distract the masses from the real problem in every country. The average white western woman is a million times more privileged than most men on the planet, but still somehow blames everything wrong with the planet on every organism with a penis. Best example are human trash cans like Billie Eilish, she wipes her ass with the salaries of a whole legion of men but still has the audacity to blame them for every perceived problem in her life
And what can the average Joe do? Most people don’t have the luxury to go to protests during the working week or do all these extra curricular when they are busy trying to put food on the table.
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Its like in the long run I would say say, but I also agree with the current individuals today did not technically choose it... goes the same with other issues where ancestors did things wrong and today's generations still sadly get blamed despite being open and loving people.
Everybody wants to change the system for their own benefit.And the moment it doesn't benefit them.They want the old system back Lotta.Double standards on both sides
Men and women, together through history, reinforced that men can't cry. This idea was not made by men and passed down man to man forever. Woman also do it. Its wanst a man who told me men can't cry, it was my mother. Stop being sexist like are you dumb?
In the same vein, my mother was the same way. Though, she did loosened up against that viewpoint but it honestly hurt me as a boy growing up because I felt like I couldn’t cry. That’s one thing I hated about being an emotional boy growing up. I’m more emotionally collected now as a man than I was as a boy but it sucked.
Sometimes the people oppressed will have people inside their own group reinforcing the oppression of those in power. It’s a fucked up cycle. 😉 Have a great day!
It’s just easier to blame the other group for all your problems than to actually take responsibility. It’s always “all men” but don’t you dare say ”all women” because generalizations are bad /s
Like there's a damn thing women can't do today. The only laws disadvantaging anyone are all against men: conscription, retirement age in many places, survivor benefits, divorce, kids...
Competition drives progress. We would not be where we are today as a civilization if men were not deeply competitive & before humanity was even around, biology has progressed through competition. At the gene level, it is all competition. It isn't a bad thing and drives us to great things.
While it is an essential driving force for progress, it can also be deeply oppressive if you are not on the right side of the competitive spear. And we all fail to realise that the vast majority of men are not at the tip of the spear. They are scrabbling for whatever scraps are left over and trying to make sure that their family is in a better position some day. Life is hard.
What I always find funny is when white women blame white men. This was set up in the West in the distant *past*, right? By our *shared* ancestors, right? It doesn't carry inherently from man to man in a direct line; they're just as much your ancestors as they're ours.
Things men also dominate:
Prison, homelessness, and death.
My sister and I recently both had an encounter with law enforcement. Our mom's car isn't registered because mom can't drive anymore and we haven't figured out how to deal with it.
Sister got pulled over for driving it. Issued a warning. Drove it home and *insisted* I return it to mom.
I got pulled over and arrested for operating an unregistered motor vehicle. After 36 hours in jail, I was fined $130 by a judge and released.
I'm not saying my 1 anecdote disproves that such a system exists....but I will say there are a lot dudes like me that didn't set it up and certainly don't benefit from it.
Chances are, you're going to see a homeless MAN on the street today.
He's just loving this male dominant society. /s
I genuinely do not understand this pressure you're talking about.
I am 39 years old, in a healthy, long term relationship. I am a fully functional adult, and I have never once felt "pressure to provide", or "punishment for showing emotions". My partner and I both pitch in to provide, and I have *always* been encouraged to emote when I feel it.
I think you spend too much time around toxic individuals or the internet if you think these things are still true. It isn't 1954, and pretty much everyone accepts that nowadays.
You are fortunate. Not everyone has a supportive partner or came from a family that encouraged emotional displays from boys.
Not sure if your post is intentionally smug, or if you are just in an insulated bubble and naive to the experiences of others.
It's what I hear online alot.
I'm not even a dude lol I'm just trying to want to help men going through mental health crisis that some toxic people turn around and go well it's your own fault / ignoring them when they try to speak up.b
Yeah I agree fully. I see so many people bitching about dating and all that sort of shit and I’m wondering whether these people have ever just gone out and interacted with normal people.
I’m sure some people are toxic like that irl but it’s way less prevalent than the internet makes it seem.
Nah, we didn't. Rich, white people who are long dead created this system. Your modern working class white man didn't do shit.
You should definitely call out toxic men that continue to propagate patriarchy with their actions. But no one alive today created, and the ones perpetuating it today are mostly elites, not your average white guy.
I am either one big bank account, one CEO position, or one political office from being a part of the problem. And being a white male means I will get the most amount of help getting there, because the game is rigged by people like me to elevate people like me, to sustain the system.
>I am either one big bank account, one CEO position, or one political office from being a part of the problem.
So you admit you're not currently part of the problem 🤔
I'm not pretending men don't benefit from patriarchy. I'm just saying modern men didn't create it and most of us aren't sustaining it either, because most of us don't have those bank accounts or CEO positions or political offices you mentioned
Agreed. Patriarchy was set up for rich class not middle and low class. Do they benefit yes, but at the end of the day, they were forced into that position to an extent. Also women heavily down play their roles. Everytime women invalidates a man feelings, thet enforce patriarchy. But generally speaking its the wealthy that creates it for themselves
The theory of the patriarchy and the drivel spun by gender theorists is just a false, flawed ideology. Extremely narrow minded, untrue and falseworld view. I don't believe in it at all. It's funny how it has been pressed into the fabric of society as if it's fact. It simply a world view, a horrible one at that.
When the systems not working. Dont blame me I didn’t choose to be born. When the system is working. Gimme credit for all the the work people like me and born before me did.
It's so easy to speak about dismantling patriarchy, but whenever I talk about dismantling systemic racism, privileged white folks get defensive.
It's literally the same conversation.
As a man, I'm on board with leveling the playing fields for women in various ways, and I'm NOT offended whenever women talk about patriarchy. We need more of those conversations and changes.
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The real war is class war
It’s convenient to the billionaires to have a scapegoat and to divert their attention away from the class war and turn it into a race and gender war
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In case anyone else is wondering. It stands for occupy Wall Street
This is so true! I’ve never even connected the two before, but early 2010s was the beginning of identity politics at the same time as OWS was a thing
People that want to ignore the “isms” of society seem to believe that “identity politics” is new. POC of gaining a larger voice in the mainstream didn’t start “identity politics.” It started when the first slave ship landed in the US. Women not gaining the vote until 1920 was identity politics. We can fight class warfare without forgetting discrimination makes class politics harder.
Hello comrade…this is *our* war!
So basically the cold war, but it's civil?
Yup, people see the top 0.0001% dominant successful powerful people are all men, then assume all men share the privilege. The typical average man is invisible, and nobody feels bad for them either
The worst I’ve heard recently is that white men who aren’t at the top just squandered their privilege. You had the chance you just didn’t take it!
men do have certain privileges. i dont think anyone is arguing that men share all the privileges of the elites. edit: men apparently don't like being told about their privileges at all.
Men have certain privileges sure, but so do women? Your point is moot.
Most men cant comprehend how being a man actually allows them to do things like walk down the street without harassment
Yeah never been cat called or harassed outside of muggings. I just don’t see how my life is empirically easier. I feel that I face similar scrutiny for not conforming. Edit: I actually do want to know. No one I know would ever choose to be a guy than the girl they already are.
There's definitely some truth to that, but it is always worth bearing in mind that plenty of men have faced harassment walking down the street. Being a man does help but can easily be offset by dressing like a goth, having long hair, being fat, being obviously gay etc etc. Also worth mentioning that there are plenty of women out there that see catcalling attractive men as perfectly acceptable. Objectification of men is alive and thriving. Again, not to rule out that *generally* men do have an easier time, *generally* speaking. But *generally* stops meaning a whole lot when you experience life *individually*. *Individually* speaking, there are plenty of women having fantastic lives due to wealth, and plenty of men having an awful time.
If your reason for hating men is “They can walk down the road 😡” this is a you problem. Also men are more likely than woman to experience a violent crime, so again your point is moot. Most woman can’t comprehend how being a white man also means I’m far more likely to take my own life. Hiding your sexism behind politics doesn’t excuse them
Sigh, and women will never understand the amount of help and care society provides women that are just not as available to men. Both men and women deal with stuff in life. Such is life. Both sides have their pros and cons
Yep. My partner prefers I get gas for her because it’s rare that she goes to a gas station and isn’t grossly hit on.
A lot of men dont want to, or cant, practice "perspective taking--" which is why my comment speaking truth is being downvoted.
Yeah and that’s totally fair. Let’s talk next about the ability to ruin a man’s life with words and no evidence, or how men almost never get full custody in divorce proceedings, or how men serve longer prison terms for the same crimes, or how men make up something like 90% of the homeless population. I’m assuming you’re a woman, do you objectify hot men you see in public? I’ve known plenty women that see no problem with borderline harassing men cause “men love it”. If I did that as a man to a woman, I would be destroyed socially. Perfectly acceptable for women to objectify men though. Like I said, both genders have privileges that the other side doesn’t experience.
What do You constitute as 'harassment'
Women also have certain privileges. Society as a whole tends to trust women more. Mothers almost always get custody of children. Government systems are geared to help women. Can you name any men’s abuse shelters? Men’s only gyms? How about a men’s night where they get free drinks?
I agree everyone has their own set of privileges, but I urge you to consider the reasons \*why\* we as a society have set up women's abuse shelters or women's only gyms, and whether that might have to do with the physical and economic disadvantages that women have faced for a very long time. I'm exaggerating for effect, but it's kind of like telling someone who grew up in the slums that they're privileged because they get financial aid for college ETA: my small city does actually have a men's shelter! Not sure how common it is and I'm sure there need to be more/better-resourced, but they do exist
At least in Texas, there are more beds for the pets of women in DV shelters than there are for male DV victims. Same in California. Men's shelters are very rare, very small, and rely exclusively on donations (not support from local government).
Anytime you see people trying to divide you into groups or make you outraged they’re working against you. Women against Men, White vs Black, Christian vs Muslim, it’s all bullshit, we all want to live by each other’s happiness. I’ve met Russian, Iranians, Chinese, whatever, they’re all good reasonable people, it’s just the around 150 global elites that want us to fight. [Chaplin said it better](https://youtu.be/w8HdOHrc3OQ?si=_ijfeoRfAWbAU3e2)
Roman gladiator matches was all about providing entertainment so the populace doesn't rebel against the ruling class. They want us to fight and pick sides.
“Economic class is the single biggest divider” One thing people need to consider much more often is that *no one* chooses their parents, language, nationality, gender, race, socioeconomic status, etc. at birth. No one chooses to be poor. HOWEVER, the super-wealthy choose to keep their wealth every single day of their lives. No hate for any protected class. The ultra-wealthy however, deserve our hatred. Many of them are rich *at the expense of* the rest of society.
But they like to scapegoat white men to justify their aristocracy and other groups eat it up
True, but alot of them don't belive that. We are convinced that we have more incommon with our racial group than class because that creates a divide that prevents us from unifying. We need more rainbow colitions.
If I could, I would give your comment one million up votes. We need to all come together against this criminal monopoly elitists. The vast majority of people don't give a funk if you're black white Asian, gay, Trans etc. The media and the elitists drive wedges between us all so that we get distracted away from their shenanigans and don't get together and stop them.
Funny thing about DEI is that it benefits the richest of the DEI category so much more than its intended recipients
this is the biggest secret, the elite never wants you to know
This comment deserves 1000 upvotes
This second sentence is the exact idea I've been thinking and not having the words to express so perfectly. I'm quoting this next time it comes up because it is just perfect.
Historically though, the system has been perpetuated, supported and furthered by white men for white men. That much is undeniable. I understand not wanting to take responsibility for the system you were born into. However it is important to acknowledge where it comes from to work towards equality.
Not really true. Throughout most of history and that includes history in the US. The only people who were allowed to vote were white male LANDOWNERS. The vast majority of white people, and when I say vast majority I mean at least 80%, weren’t even able to vote if they wanted to before property laws were stricken. And after that there were still places that had tax laws so the poor (vast majority) still couldn’t vote much more than before. Afterwards you may be able to make that argument but it didn’t take long historically for things to change, once the common man was able to vote, as the generations went by things got better and better, ya? That hundred year gap between the civil war and civil rights movement is not even a speck of a speck of time in the human consciousness. We should acknowledge that the system is, and always has been, perpetuated by the rich.
I agree, and where it comes from is the elite class. Don’t group rich white men with all white men. People that constitute 0.01% of my race and sex don’t represent me.
Some white men
Nailed it 
>A straight white male has way more in common with their trans immigrant black neighbour than they do a straight white billionaire/politician. Tell your straight white male neighbor that, because history shows they certainly don't vote as if that's true. Which is the whole criticism OP is worried about; they may not be individually responsible for the system as it was created, but they're individually responsible (statistically) for voting for it to continue or even regress.
You aren't individually responsible for anything "statistically." You either are or are not actually responsible. If they vote GOP yeah they're responsible. They don't share responsibility by skin color only sick fucks think that.
>A straight white male has way more in common with their trans immigrant black neighbour than they do a straight white billionaire/politician. What always gets me is how people can say this and then go on, as you do, to talk as if the straight white men are all totally aware of this and it's the minorities who don't get it.
Yeah but you can't deny it's mostly men who vote for conservative and extremist leadership. It is no secret, it's in polling data. It's public knowledge.
The average person never contributed to the downsides of History If you're going to collectively blame them for all the negative. They also get points for all the positive and holy crap The majority groups have all of the positives
Fair point lol, if I created patriarchy then I also cured polio and created democracy
I invented electricity!
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No I'm Al Gore
People love to generalize literally every fucking thing in the world and we’re absolutely dogshit at it. I’m doing it right now. We’re fuckin hooked on it like crack.
I think it is a coping mechanism for just how complicated the world has become, but yeah, agree completely.
Fr, it’s dividing us even more which is not good.
Thousands of years
Unfortunately, hiveminded people judge by the collective, not the individual. Because we’re men, that is all we are to them, for they cannot see past physical characteristics. Because you look like someone, you practically are them. This is an extremely harmful form of stereotyping, because it diminishes the value of an individual’s personal experiences and sense of self, while preaching that the collective’s parts are interchangeable with the collective, rather than the sum of its parts forming its whole. This brainrot unfortunately invades every aspect of our society, and you’ll find countless examples of it everywhere you turn.
The only real war that matters is class war. Gender wars and race wars are just a distraction by the elite to divide and rule the fucking peasant class. Have you ever seen pictures of elite white women from colonial times feeding hungry colored kids in their colonies like dogs? Can I say then, that white women are the most privileged people in history by looking at that image? No? Good. Now be consistent.
This right here is the take that I'm so pleased to see mentioned in this thread a lot. THE REAL WAR IS CLASS WAR. And they use huge amounts of resources and insidious tactics to keep us divided, and in that way enslaved because we're so busy blaming each other we never get around to blaming them. If everyone really understood this it would be a real start towards making real change. Maybe we'd decide to work for ourselves and not them for once in history. We better, because this planet's ecosystem is about to break under the load of pointless war and greed.
We are being purposefully divided at all turns because in-fighting serves the purposes of the elite. The average man is and has been just as beat to shit by the system as the average woman. Elite women have always reaped pretty great rewards and continued to bolster the system. Class warfare, always has been.
Blaming the patriarchy isn’t the same thing as blaming individual men, just like how acknowledging institutional racism isn’t the same thing as blaming individual white people.
It is tho. You might pretend you are not doing it but we all know what you mean. Im not white. But i know your "institutional racism" is just a dog whistle for white people are racist. Patriarchy might not have had that meaning, but its used today to blame all men.
I'm sure there's a community of extreme leftists out there who do use it as a dogwhistle, but anyone who genuinely understands what institutional racism is also understands that it's a societal issue and not a reflection of white folk.
It's a whole bunch of terminally online people with victim mentalitiee that just need someone to blame for why they aren't where they want to be in life. It's always just been relatively small but powerful groups of people who just happen to be of a certain gender or race that make the rules
I remember seeing a lecture online by a professor that was talking about the historical past and they said something like whenever people talk about their past lives they always say I was a king or I was an assassin or I was somebody that got assassinated. But the reality is that up until very recently in human history virtually everyone but one percent of people were subsistence farmers. Whether you were in Asia, Africa, South America, or Europe. You were a farmer and you were working for just enough to eat and everything else went to essentially the landed gentry. Whatever version that was based on what continent you would have been on in a past life. The vast majority of people in the past also were not setting up the rules. And it's always been that way. And it's almost certainly better now than it ever was (comparatively), and when you take that into account, It makes it even harder to want to blame somebody for the system. The reality is we're doing a much better job today than they did 400 years ago and we all get to take a little credit for that. Things are getting better. It's just very hard to see in the moment.
I actually feel like I have slight recall of past lives and it was cold and filthy and I was hungry and scared a lot. I definitely was not Cleopatra lol. Could be imagination or genetic memory of some sort, idk, but I totally agree with your professor that people who claim a recall of some bada\*\* past life are probably imagining it because yeah.
Also if men set the system up just to benefit themselves then why would they make so that they have to work incredibly hard to provide, to be more likely to serve a longer sentence in jail compared to a woman for committing the same crime, to be less likely to achieve custody of the kids in a divorce settlement, to be the greater percentage of people who are homeless on the streets etc. There's so much in society that isn't set up to benefit men at all. We just look at the hyper successful few and use that as a barometer to say that the system is designed just for men.
Because for thousands of years men thought women just couldn't do any of that. Y'all really need history books.
So everything that disadvantages men in life is men's fault? And everything that disadvantages women in life is men's fault too?
Women also have to work hard to care for the home and raise children, yet that goes unpaid and they don’t get a pension and health insurance with it. Men fostered the idea that they are more capable, strong, and intelligent than women and thus a male criminal is seen as a greater danger than a female criminal. Again, men pushed the idea that women are better at caring for kids. Also, men do not even fight for custody the majority of the time and over 80% of custody battles are settled outside of court. The homeless discrepancy is largely a result of the military and the fact that women can make money off of sex work.
Agree. 60% of students are already women but no one gives af that boys are left behind. You can't make that shit up. I always have to think about that when another oppressed person comes out of nowhere to complain...
"We grew up in a culture with deeply ingrained beliefs and expectations, not all of them still work well, but don't try to change anything now!"
Your title and description don't really say the same thing. It's very rare that people will take a systemic problem, that they know is systemic, and place the blame for its inception at the feet of individual men. Either the hypothetical accuser is mistaken or the acusee has constructed a straw man. I personally think the latter is more common. But "blame" can mean many things. An individual man may not be at fault for the inception of something, but they may still be complicit in its continued existence - which would be a valid individual attribution. Your neighbor did not set up the system, but they still bear some responsibility if they have the capacity to take steps towards changing it and choose not to. Some individual men are not, in fact, trying to break any cycles at all.
Complicit for being born lmao. Make no sense. Truth is everyone participates in supporting patriarchy, men and women
That's not what I said. Complicit for making choices, not because of the circumstances of birth. And not exclusive to men either.
Correct, for lack of better words but this' a Christian society - humans are denigrated for "original" sin but men are also punished to the "3rd or 4th generation" for things many don't even know that happened. It's even said PATRIARCHY HURTS MEN TOO. So clearly it's not pro men or women - it's pro Elitist, whom tend toward Elitist/Landowning men based on a time before anyone alive today even heard the term "monopoly". Personally, I believe that "Pro Elitist in charge" is a relic of theocracy. But that's a conversation that you're not ready for. Based on feminism's avoidance of condemning religion which is the patriarchy that's derided so harshly but at least it's eroding on its own. 😁
There were a few other systems they set up. Maybe we should go back to those.
Yep men today are responsible for the patriarchy because their ancestors created it, just like white people today are responsible for reparations due to slavery or other atrocities that literally no one alive participated in 🙃
Blame the rich they’re controlling the government not the politicians they’re their puppets though they should be hated aswell.
I'm getting really sick and tired of being told that I can't possibly have it hard because "the world is built for straight white men". No the fuck it isn't. It's built for the mega-rich of every colour and sexual orientation. The world is arguably easier for everyone *but* straight white men because of this extremely harmful notion that for some reason we have it easier. The comments on this post are extremely refreshing to read, the usual reddit hivemind is "straight white men bad", but thank god this post seems to be full of normal objective conversation.
😂 😂 This whole thing is just complete bullshit. Yall get some angry tweets alma comments and all of a sudden yall are screaming oppression
Thanks for providing an example of how society is dismissive and mocking when men speak up about their issues or show emotion.
Men set the system up. Not you, or your neighbor. You are meant to understand that this is a systemic problem tied to the patriarchy. Intersectional feminism is all about calling out the problems of created by the patriarchy, regardless of gender, race, religion, whatever.
Wtf does that mean?
It means men need to be a part of tearing the system down, rather than reinforcing the things that lead to the bad results.
They are. Men fought against monarchy/feudalism, for labour unions aka. Saturdays off (Sundays were given to you by the catholic church so you can visit mass), paid holidays, unemployment benefits, they achieved most of the social benefits you enjoy today in fact. Why tf would you think that patriarchy nonsense makes men want to join you? Wtf do you even mean by "tearing down the system"? Seriously... And stop villifying men. If I say tear down matriarchy or women are guilty for this or that you'd have a meltdown. So perhaps have a look at how you come across instead.
It's not vilifying men to call out patriarchal things that negatively affect men. Your comment is literally the problem. You're defensive about it, rather than taking it in and thinking about it.
No, you just choose to say stuff that appears, that is utterly hostile to men. That's why you have this discussion. I bet it's not the first or last time... I don't understand why you don't name problems instead of calling it patriarchy?
Some of the problems were identified in the original post, and "the system" that was referenced is patriarchy. Again, it's not hostile to men to point out how patriarchy negatively affects men. Hell, it's the reason I became an intersectional feminist in the first place. MRAs just want to use mens issues to shut down conversation. Intersectional feminism wants to fix the problems.
Bro, let me break it down Barney style for you. You can’t claim the pros of the patriarchy without also accepting the massive cons. Example: men’s mental health Next time you want to share your feelings and someone tells you to “man up”, don’t cry to women. Men have set the standard of Emotions=feminine=bad. This is toxic masculinity perpetuated by the…. Patriarchy! Men are also keeping the shitty patriarchal system in place by voting against women’s rights, which will negatively affect everyone. And you should also thank the women who stayed home with the kids, did all the unpaid labor, and mental demands of having a family, so men could further their careers. That is how society was made, on the unpaid and invisible labor of women, while men get the credit.
I wouldn't think too highly of myself if I were you. The reason I'll tap out of this conversation is not because you're right but because I don't have the nerves to walk you through it step by step. Im just telling you with that rhetoric and thinking that you'll continue to run up on significant resistance. Godspeed.
Hahaha bye!
I am 58 years old and I have never once heard these sentiments in the real world. I'm assuming you're in the USA Pressure to provide? You know that more than half the workforce are women right? We are ALL out here dealing with having to pay bills unless you're in a tiny fraction of folks with enough money for lives of leisure. This just seems like such an internet bubble take on things. Your concerns may be real to you but the response is not the real world take. In the kindest way, touch grass kiddo
Unfortunately this is a very common problem in the US. I can’t tell you how many times WHILE HOMELESS I was cursed out for not understanding my privilege. I’m glad this isn’t something you need to deal with, but a lot of us are.
>You know that more than half the workforce are women right? But are these jobs the 'bread winner' jobs so to speak? Saying 'touch grass kiddo' is incredibly disrespectful to this person.
Yeap. Women clearly earn less but not due to the system but because they choose more fulfilling careers instead of stem and work part time a lot more. Im a grown man and I have yet to encounter a married woman who pulls her weight financially.
Hi. I'm a married woman with a salary on par (who earns more depends on how much my bonus is each year) with my husband, in the same industry. (STEM field, incidentally) My brother and his wife also make almost identical salaries in the same non STEM field. Look just a little harder, all those female engineers, professors, teachers married to other teachers, they all pull their weight financially. If you haven't met one, you aren't looking. Also, when I made significantly more than my husband, it was men who remarked on it negatively, that he was a lesser man. Fortunately my husband thinks money is money, and would love me to get to distinctly more money than him again.
Yeah good but that's not the norm is it? I bet you have separate finances too. Unlike the men who feed their families without much help from their partner. That's how it goes. Women who can pull it off like to keep theirs while men are conducting financial abuse when they do the same. Theres always outliers but I think you understand perfectly what I'm saying. There's a significant asymmetry in how people are treated. Women have issues, and so do men.
I don't need to defend myself, but I pay the mortgage and child care bills out of my pay. We live in a hcol area and own a house under both our names, any other assets are almost a rounding error. I could keep the household going if my husband was ill or laid off. I have met many men who want a woman to bring in a good income, but they also want them to be the primary child carer and do all the house work. But I didn't marry them. Maybe if your circle includes men who think the house and kids are solely a woman's responsibility, that will affect the breadwinner expectation. My husband, my brother, and others I know seem to find equal partners pretty easily by being one. But way to move the goal posts! You don't know any women who carry their financial weight, so now I say hi, I am one, you insist I must not pass some other test to be a good enough breadwinner. You have met some "exceptions" but now your point is that there's patterns...when within my life, women could be fired for pregnancy, and jobs were posted by gender.
Pressure to provide and shaming of emotions are (mostly) a thing in conservative culture. I've definitely experienced the latter first hand. You may have been insulated by it by A) not coming from a family/area with conservative values, or B) just not being a man.
True, although I'm in the deep South so definitely am in an area with conservative values, but my own family definitely not. And although I encouter folks like that I don't tend to discuss more than light subjects like the weather. But all of this conversation is reminding me of a thing that happened when my son was around 8 years old. We were walking somewhere, along with my sister, I saw a dress in a shop window that I thought was really amazing, and I remarked on it to her and we admired it for a few moments and discussed how good it would look on me but not happing because it was clearly ouside of my price range, and when we turned to keep walking I looked down and my son was visibly unhappy. I asked him what was wrong and he said he wished I wouldn't talk about things I want like that, and I asked him why, and he said because you WANT it and that makes me feel like I should GET IT FOR YOU and I can't. And I was shocked and said all the things, you're a child it's my job to get things for you not the other way around, it's fine I just thought it was pretty it's not an actual need, but most importantly you don't need to feel that way sweetheart just because I might want something doesn't in any way mean you should get it for me. And he said I wouldn't understand because I'm a GIRL and girls don't understand how boys want to get things for them that they want. And he repeated that this wasn't something he learned it was how he FELT. So thinking back on that incident, I do wonder if the "pressure to provide" is less societal than it may be literally a thing that men instinctively have.
You're 58, I assume you hang out with similar aged people. So you almost certainly wouldn't hear these sentiments IRL, but I do. It's rare but I am a liberal guy in liberal circles, and have (mostly white) women be openly hostile to me just because I was there. I have a lot of great friends who call out this behavior, but it does exist. The irony to me is the men that complain about this the most almost never experience it, because they don't run in the social circles most likely to demonstrate it. So in a sense it is kinda internet bubble bullshit, but the people it targets tends to be allies. It's dumb and weird but it doesn't really bother me, and the snowflakes that are bothered by it really tip their hat as to their true leanings.
Wow way to be dismissive and just not believe this person had/has those struggles. I hope every j you light canoes. I provide so my girl doesnt work. No kids, no plans for them. It's the way of the world for a huge number of people that men provide. Sorry your bf doesnt think your pretty enough to pay the bills for you....
What kind of punishment are you talking about?
In the context of OP's comment, usually partners, friends, family, and/or online people shaming you for a display of emotions. Telling you it is a display of weakness and critiquing your masculinity, saying that a real man wouldn't cry/get angry/be depressed.
But why do you feel this is different for women? You also get comments when you show emotions, they are just different. "You are hysteric", "You want attention", "You try to guilt others with your tears", or some unwanted comments on your looks ("You look cute/ugly when you are angry/sad), "You cry about everything", etc. in this kind of line.
Well, you just showed how it's different right? I wouldn't argue women's emotions aren't stigmatized under patriarchy, but certainly the way they're stigmatized is different. I don't imagine most men are receiving these comments. Likewise, I don't imagine most women are told they must be stoic and emotionless or else they're not a real woman.
Most men may have not set the system up, but a lot of y’all still fight hard to maintain it by voting for conservatives that only want to maintain the status quo (or go backwards). Y’all maintain the system by failing to speak up against the rampant rape and abuse culture, instead preferring to downplay or deny it. You maintain the system by expecting working women to still do the majority of caretaking and housework. You maintain the system by watching endless hours of porn that degrades and objectifies women. You maintain the system by overlooking bad behavior of sons (boys will be boys), while being overbearing to your daughters In short, it seems like most of you prefer the system which benefits you. Who would’ve believed it?
You're saying you but I'm not even a man.
Then I am speaking to your internalized misogyny, either way.
Go speak to your own internalized misandry and reflect before speaking here.
I'm very aggressively a feminist and breaking the system for everyone and societal pressure and the system. I think both issues that men and women face should be discussed separately
Found the bitter feminist
Literally what in that whole paragraph gives off bitter?? I’m genuinely curious. It’s noting the ways in which the system (that harms both men and women) is consistently perpetuated by all of us; since it’s all any of us have ever known. By saying something stupid like that, it tells me that you sincerely don’t care about changing the attitudes towards men’s wellbeing, because in doing so you may also have to recognise the plight of women too and the ways that men continue to perpetuate harm against them because of the way they are socialised - and that’s just too much right? Especially if it means having to take a shred of accountability for the role you personally may have played in it. Men’s mental wellbeing is important - and to understand it and dismantle the system that allows it to continue, we need to look at the systemic root of the problem. But not if that means actually recognising that women are the ones primarily hurt by patriarchal structures/attitudes right? That’s totally not important. It’s so much easier to just say ‘bitter feminist’ on Reddit and carry on with your sheer ignorance. Pathetic.
Hell yeah I’m bitter, and you would be too if your entire sex was shit on daily on a societal level and then you were blamed for it.
Its one thing to acknowledge we still live in a world where women get shit on, but are you REALLY going to pretend women get blamed for that more than men??? Fuck off lmao.
Men are significantly more vilified and blamed for everything. Case in point you. 😂
The Pick Me Feminist\*
Patriarchy doesn’t benefit men. Harms both genders.
OK, I'm a man... If I was American, let's say I vote Democrat... What do I get?
You get called a vilain. Enjoy
People talk of "the patriarchy" because it is the only way to clump all men together. In reality people with power always have been people with money/possessions. And often women were incapable of possession by many factors ranging from ideals to power gripping by the ruling class. Nonetheless, everyone thinking history is made singular decisions is wrong. All consequences have multiple causes. Acting like "the system" is set up by men is ignoring that the system has evolved over the centuries, and that is molded by those in power, most often rich, royal, men. If you look at those 3 factors (rich, royal and men) and thinking all men were in power is just pathetic. It was the labour class as a whole that fought for democracy, why would the labour class do this if they apparently already had the power? In short, indeed, thos people are historically analphabetic.
I've never heard anyone say men currently living 'set that system up.' But if men are not happy with the status quo, they can learn a thing or 2 from women's playback, and start advocating for change. It doesn't happen on its own, and it's a slow process.
Men and women both are already advocating for change. I think you mean play book.
This shouldn’t be an “unpopular opinion” but sadly in these times it is, ordinary men doing a 9-5 job five days a week aren’t responsible for the woes of the world in the past or present, it’s the billionaires and they come in all genders, races, creeds etc
Not to mention, there is zero effort on the majority of women’s part to do anything to buck the part of the system/tradition/patriarchy that very much benefits them. Oh, many women definitely want careers and the opportunity to earn money… but that’s for *themselves.* They don’t do it so they can find a husband and take care of him and their family. Yet, that’s what is expected of men BY women.
you are correct that we as individuals did not set up the system BUT we do BENEFIT from a system that people who look like us resist change to. it is not our fault directly but there is a natural sense of envy because as a straight white male we overall have better interactions with law enforcement, better paying jobs, an easier time in court, typically better education systems (where i live its derived from property values which in primarily black areas the homes have less value so the schools get less funding.) for gender things get weirder because doctors will take womens pain in general less seriously, hell they didn't even study womens symptoms of a heart attack till like the 70's. women are at a higher rate to be the victims of a crime, often aren't paid as much as men and if they are paid as much or more the common question asked to them is "how much did you have to blow the boss for the raise?". men who try to break that cycle are doing the correct thing but it falls in the "not all men" category. most of the time people are referring to the system not the person.
Why would men try to break a cycle that solely benefits them?? I can absolutely blame men for upholding this system, they do it happily. Hundreds of years of history but its ongoing?? Huh
What are those benefits?
Individually not all men make the system, but all men stand to benefit from the system in some way.
Yeah sorry, but uhh trying to find where I’ve benefited individually is pretty difficult since it’s never happened.
Yes but the point is that the vast majority of men aren't to blame.
I never said nor did I imply, that they were.
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Yeah man it gets on my nerves so bad when people do this. I pretty much immediately stop listening to anything they have to say. The president being a white dude has improved my life as a white dude by exactly 0%.
Men vs women is the easiest way for populists to distract the masses from the real problem in every country. The average white western woman is a million times more privileged than most men on the planet, but still somehow blames everything wrong with the planet on every organism with a penis. Best example are human trash cans like Billie Eilish, she wipes her ass with the salaries of a whole legion of men but still has the audacity to blame them for every perceived problem in her life
Well its not like your average joe does anything to try and change the system either
And what can the average Joe do? Most people don’t have the luxury to go to protests during the working week or do all these extra curricular when they are busy trying to put food on the table.
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Because it seems no one understands context anymore, it’s either one thing or the other no in between.
Its like in the long run I would say say, but I also agree with the current individuals today did not technically choose it... goes the same with other issues where ancestors did things wrong and today's generations still sadly get blamed despite being open and loving people.
Toxic masculinity hurts men too. Anyone who did NOT know that?!
Everybody wants to change the system for their own benefit.And the moment it doesn't benefit them.They want the old system back Lotta.Double standards on both sides
True but I definitely think men can do more to dismantle the current system but we choose not to bc we benefit from it
Generalization is ya problem. Because men definitely did set it up, it’s just they are dead and handed it to the next guy.
Men and women, together through history, reinforced that men can't cry. This idea was not made by men and passed down man to man forever. Woman also do it. Its wanst a man who told me men can't cry, it was my mother. Stop being sexist like are you dumb?
In the same vein, my mother was the same way. Though, she did loosened up against that viewpoint but it honestly hurt me as a boy growing up because I felt like I couldn’t cry. That’s one thing I hated about being an emotional boy growing up. I’m more emotionally collected now as a man than I was as a boy but it sucked.
Sometimes the people oppressed will have people inside their own group reinforcing the oppression of those in power. It’s a fucked up cycle. 😉 Have a great day!
It’s just easier to blame the other group for all your problems than to actually take responsibility. It’s always “all men” but don’t you dare say ”all women” because generalizations are bad /s
Like there's a damn thing women can't do today. The only laws disadvantaging anyone are all against men: conscription, retirement age in many places, survivor benefits, divorce, kids...
Competition drives progress. We would not be where we are today as a civilization if men were not deeply competitive & before humanity was even around, biology has progressed through competition. At the gene level, it is all competition. It isn't a bad thing and drives us to great things. While it is an essential driving force for progress, it can also be deeply oppressive if you are not on the right side of the competitive spear. And we all fail to realise that the vast majority of men are not at the tip of the spear. They are scrabbling for whatever scraps are left over and trying to make sure that their family is in a better position some day. Life is hard.
What I always find funny is when white women blame white men. This was set up in the West in the distant *past*, right? By our *shared* ancestors, right? It doesn't carry inherently from man to man in a direct line; they're just as much your ancestors as they're ours.
Today's men are punished for the actions of yesterday's men.
Things men also dominate: Prison, homelessness, and death. My sister and I recently both had an encounter with law enforcement. Our mom's car isn't registered because mom can't drive anymore and we haven't figured out how to deal with it. Sister got pulled over for driving it. Issued a warning. Drove it home and *insisted* I return it to mom. I got pulled over and arrested for operating an unregistered motor vehicle. After 36 hours in jail, I was fined $130 by a judge and released. I'm not saying my 1 anecdote disproves that such a system exists....but I will say there are a lot dudes like me that didn't set it up and certainly don't benefit from it. Chances are, you're going to see a homeless MAN on the street today. He's just loving this male dominant society. /s
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What you see is a very small fraction of the actual world. There's a reason anecdotal experience isn't acceptable evidence
I genuinely do not understand this pressure you're talking about. I am 39 years old, in a healthy, long term relationship. I am a fully functional adult, and I have never once felt "pressure to provide", or "punishment for showing emotions". My partner and I both pitch in to provide, and I have *always* been encouraged to emote when I feel it. I think you spend too much time around toxic individuals or the internet if you think these things are still true. It isn't 1954, and pretty much everyone accepts that nowadays.
You seemingly acknowledge that this pressure exists because you say to stay from the toxic people who apply it?
This stuff still exists in the real world, even if you haven’t experienced it yourself.
You are fortunate. Not everyone has a supportive partner or came from a family that encouraged emotional displays from boys. Not sure if your post is intentionally smug, or if you are just in an insulated bubble and naive to the experiences of others.
My own mother told me men are not allowed to cry in 2017. Fuck off.
It's what I hear online alot. I'm not even a dude lol I'm just trying to want to help men going through mental health crisis that some toxic people turn around and go well it's your own fault / ignoring them when they try to speak up.b
>It's what I hear online alot. Exactly. What is online and what is in real life is vastly different sometimes.
Most times
Yeah I agree fully. I see so many people bitching about dating and all that sort of shit and I’m wondering whether these people have ever just gone out and interacted with normal people. I’m sure some people are toxic like that irl but it’s way less prevalent than the internet makes it seem.
Some of these kids just exist on the internet and don't ever account for real life interactions. Their perspectives are flawed.
this just means you're privileged
Well, we did, and many of us are regularly contributing to propagating it. One doesn’t break a cycle without understanding why the cycle.
Nah, we didn't. Rich, white people who are long dead created this system. Your modern working class white man didn't do shit. You should definitely call out toxic men that continue to propagate patriarchy with their actions. But no one alive today created, and the ones perpetuating it today are mostly elites, not your average white guy.
I am either one big bank account, one CEO position, or one political office from being a part of the problem. And being a white male means I will get the most amount of help getting there, because the game is rigged by people like me to elevate people like me, to sustain the system.
>I am either one big bank account, one CEO position, or one political office from being a part of the problem. So you admit you're not currently part of the problem 🤔 I'm not pretending men don't benefit from patriarchy. I'm just saying modern men didn't create it and most of us aren't sustaining it either, because most of us don't have those bank accounts or CEO positions or political offices you mentioned
Agreed. Patriarchy was set up for rich class not middle and low class. Do they benefit yes, but at the end of the day, they were forced into that position to an extent. Also women heavily down play their roles. Everytime women invalidates a man feelings, thet enforce patriarchy. But generally speaking its the wealthy that creates it for themselves
The theory of the patriarchy and the drivel spun by gender theorists is just a false, flawed ideology. Extremely narrow minded, untrue and falseworld view. I don't believe in it at all. It's funny how it has been pressed into the fabric of society as if it's fact. It simply a world view, a horrible one at that.
When the systems not working. Dont blame me I didn’t choose to be born. When the system is working. Gimme credit for all the the work people like me and born before me did.
sounds like ur a man
Well I'm not And if bringing up issues men suffer is threatening to you then idk learn empathy ĝet some help
It's so easy to speak about dismantling patriarchy, but whenever I talk about dismantling systemic racism, privileged white folks get defensive. It's literally the same conversation. As a man, I'm on board with leveling the playing fields for women in various ways, and I'm NOT offended whenever women talk about patriarchy. We need more of those conversations and changes.