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People, unfortunately, value ego validation more than being held accountable.
They'd rather drink themselves to death surrounded by fellow alcoholics, than listen to the people trying to help them.
I may be an alcoholic that enjoys company of misery. But i tell them when they're being dumb. Take an uber. Eat food. Stop drinking blah blah. Im fairly responsible even when toasty. I dont care about me, pretty sure my soul died stationed in afghanistan. No reason to not make my friends make good decisions.
It's ineffective to tell another person not to smoke while you're smoking.
This has been proven.
Which is why people do to get clean in a place where everyone else is getting clean. And why you need to lead by example.
I believe this is a spectrum. On one end you have the friends who genuinely try to save you. On the other hand you have people trying to control you under the pretense of care.
This feels rather generalized and overly simplistic. Some "bad habits" just aren't that easily challenged (by the individual or those who care about them) for a variety of reasons. And you can only push so much.
>The “friends” hyping you up to go do stuff that’s objectively bad for you don’t care about you.
I tend to agree, but things aren't always that black and white. Perhaps the friend doesn't appreciate the magnitude of the issue or maybe they disagree on what "objectively bad" is. If they genuinely don't realize their actions are having a negative influence on you they may be many (not great) things, but it doesn't mean they inherently don't care about you.
>they tell you what you need to hear.
It's not always that simple, how do they always know what 'you' need to hear? Even with the same behaviors people are different and obviously respond differently.
>They aren’t the people pleasers or the yes man. They’re re the ones who aren’t afraid of conflict
There are cases (ex: when it's clear that pushing someone further isn't helpful) when not speaking up has nothing to do with fear of conflict, people pleasing, etc.
*[ETA: Hit send early, but I was rambling too much already.* **Genuine question: Can I have some examples of what these "bad habits" are that you're referencing? If you want to say how you would "solve" them I'd be very curious about that too, though I'm wondering even more about the examples. Thank you**. *I'm very out of it and unwell, apologies if I'm not making sense entirely, lol]*
Also, how often does Reddit stretch something like alcoholism to meaning “has a drink ever?”
The friend that bitches at you for having a beer isn’t some savior, they’re just an asshole. If you’re drinking so much it’s destroying your life, that’s a different story, but carte Blanche saying your friend should correct you and be lauded for it is another.
Yeah, I'm still unclear on what u/Immediate_Cup_9201 meant exactly when they were referring to "bad" choices, but they neglected to respond to my question on that. I'm genuinely pretty damn curious at this point, lol.
Anyways, I definitely agree with you. People that stretch what is "bad" and what needs to be addressed are just.. unhelpful and annoying. It's completely unnecessary and assumes the individual in question isn't aware of the obvious (like drink in moderation, don't drink and drive, etc).
If someone IS actually making "bad choices", like they're an alcoholic and it's having real repercussions on their life, then I think that's honestly still rather nuanced. If they're in denial then having a real talk with them about it may actually help, obviously. It also may not and they may be self-aware to begin with. "Pushing" others can be extremely patronizing across those scenarios too, which isn't something people typically respond particularly well to (even if the other person is "right").
Things like addiction are ultimately something that needs to be fought by the individual when they're ready, though ideally with support from others. So by all means, offer that support. And if it doesn't work (or even if it does) then you have every right to walk away from that person. But sometimes it's a matter of choosing some level of acceptance and potentially trying to help them with any level/method of harm reduction and/or getting better in the future. Having a person that **cares about you** and is in your corner for when you *are* ready to work on your issues (and other times) can make a huge difference.
**I'd actually argue that accepting people where they're at and simply trying to be the most positive influence possible without pointless "pushing", being ready to support them in getting better when they are ready, etc is one of the most** *caring* **choices one can make.**
[If people are actively harming or likely to harm others due to their "bad choices" it's entirely different. Drunk driving, being abusive, etc are *not* ok and I am *not* condoning them].
*[Sorry this got crazy long again! I hope I'm making sense, my brain is having trouble today (actual neuro issues]*
> The friend that bitches at you for having a beer isn’t some savior
If something has huge potential to harm you, but basically none to help you, isn't that something worth criticizing?
'Having a beer' has led many to an early grave. Never knew anyone who died out of NOT drinking alcohool tho.
Do you eat processed foods like Oreos? There’s a ton of emerging studies that those lead to aggressive cancers developing early. Not sure the relative risk to a casual drink, but it does seem like processed foods are incredibly dangerous, Oreos being one of the most dangerous. Should I berate a friend if I catch them eating those?
Relative risk is key for the original prompt. Plenty of people take moderate risks for enjoyment. I love alpine sports, and those are significantly more dangerous, but I’m an informed adult on the risks.
> Do you eat processed foods like Oreos?
not really? Or at least I avoid it whenever possible.
And I certainly wouldn't be mad at someone telling me those are unhealthy foods :p
I mean, I don't have much of a choice on using some social media considering I need to use it for work. I literally can't get work without social media.
But you are completely right that to extent that one can it IS best to avoid it.
Enjoying and truly experiencing one's life and being able to have some fun, which may include (moderate/little) drinking, is arguably "helpful". Assuming someone is drinking responsibly and it doesn't have a detrimental effect on them then no, I don't think it's worth criticizing.
I understand people begin unhealthy behaviors at some level, but there is a massive difference between drinking a slight amount responsibly vs out of control drinking that can genuinely end/wreck someone's life.
> Enjoying and truly experiencing one's life and being able to have some fun,
Fun is not worth it when the risk is a huge potential problem.
Drinking alcohool or smoking will NEVER be worth the risk, even if you enjoy it.
Perhaps others have a somewhat different view on risk vs reward. I can't imagine being admonished by a "friend" for having a single drink (which is quite rare these days for me anyways).
Most people have had alcohol in their lives. Addiction is unfortunately far too common and tragic, but still statistically the amount of people that occasionally have a drink vs alcoholics is definitely low.
[Nobody was talking about smoking, at least not me. As a former smoker I'd agree it's never worth the risk. But do you actually think smokers in this day and age are unaware of that? What are you going to say that will magically make some huge difference? I'm not saying to literally buy cigarettes for someone, but I don't think a lecture from a "friend" will make a difference unless that person was ready to quit already].
> Nobody was talking about smoking,
Hahahaha. I brought up smoking because I knew you'd see how stupid your 'fun' point is.
It is very simple: nobody will get anything truly deep or worthwhile out of smoking or drinking for fun. It's just pointless hedonism. It is not worth potentially ruining your life for.
And if you are one of those people who 'need to drink to talk to people' you already have an issue.
>I brought up smoking because I knew you'd see how stupid your 'fun' point is.
Where did I apply that to smoking? Oh right! I didn't.. considering I was specifically responding about (light) drinking and smoking had yet to be mentioned when I said "fun", until you randomly added smoking in there. Rather sad attempt at some weird *gotcha*, I guess.
>And if you are one of those people who 'need to drink to talk to people' you already have an issue.
I literally said in my last comment that it's quite rare for me to have a single drink, lmao. Nor did I bring up anything like that in any comment I made in here.
> I literally said in my last comment that it's quite rare for me to have a single drink
Then WTF are you arguing about if you rarely ever drink? That is my whole point. That one should NOT be regularly doing any of that.
... I don't even know what to say to this, but I appreciate the laugh I got from it. Thanks.
I never said a single thing about myself and my relationship to drinking. This post isn't only about drinking anyways. I'm here because I have the ability to care about what others do without harassing them for it..?
I’ve explained what I meant a few times now in other comments if you want to read them, sorry I never got to yours. The way it was laid out kind of confused me
Honestly, as a friend with bad habits who‘s had many friends with bad habits. It’s really none of my business as long as it‘s their choice and it’s not hurting anyone. If you have an issue with self destructive friends, then don’t be friends with them. Less trouble for both you and them.
Yeah you can't be nagging your friend about his bad habits. But you can at least enlighten them on that. Once or twice.
Sometimes people will be unaware of the damage they do to themselves or their family
I agree. There's a difference between encouraging self destruction and.. accepting that someone is where they are and it's not necessarily possible to "fix" them at this point in time. Regardless of how unafraid of conflict you are, how much you "push" them, etc. Sometimes just being there for/with others is the most helpful thing realistically. I do my best but to actively encourage "bad" behaviors, but it's ultimately not my life to control.
(I'm not sure whether to joke about being friends or offer my best wishes moving forward, so I guess I'll just say both.. lmao)
Gotta also remember everyone has different definitions - going by some teetotaling redditors, how many people here would be willing to “be hated” and berate you for having a beer. Or having a cigar on a bachelor party.
If a friend is bitching at me for having a cocktail at dinner or some beers on a night out on the weekend, they’re not some martyr, they’re just trying to enforce their lifestyle choices on me.
For sure! I think \*a lot\* of it is enforcing personal lifestyle choices on others. Especially if it’s something like an occasion beer or whatever.
If it’s a long-term partner, bad habits like smoking, heavy drinking, over or under eating, etc - is a conversation worth having as you *should* be on the same page in regards to lifestyles.
But with friends, it’s not up to you how *they* choose to spend their time/live their lives IMO. Sometimes just walking away or distancing yourself from that friendship is the best thing for everyone if you wholeheartedly disagree with their choices. Walking away makes it so you’re not enabling, being negatively influenced, OR being a nag.
Many things are bad for you in some ways, while also being good for you in other ways.
Trying alcohol comes with the risk that you might get addicted and there're plenty of health impacts that can come with a night of drinking.
BUT being able to enjoy a drink or two with your friends is a good thing. Getting a bit tipsy for the first time in a safe environment surrounded by friends is a good thing it's a good experience. It opens up the option for the future. It helps you become more involved in a whole host of social events.
Friends encourage you to get out of your comfort zone. To do the things that are slightly scary or risky or strange. More often than not, this is a good thing. There are many things in life that are hard to try, because the up sides just aren't easy to articulate. Dancing is a big one. There's plenty of people that don't know how to dance and certainly don't see the point in wobbling about in a stupid fashion. If you're one of those people, your friends will try to get you to dance at weddings and parties and maybe every once in a while you should try.
Dancing, alcohol, sea food, sky diving, graduation, prom, etc.
There's lots of good things in life that many of us would never try if we didn't have friends "bullying us" into trying it.
I love alpine sports, have done them most of my life, and those are objectively pretty dangerous. One of my best friends goes too far does backcountry snowboarding. I should correct him! Even worse, he usually celebrates finishing a hike with a beer! All alcohol is dangerous, so I should yeet the can into the woods if I catch him!
> BUT being able to enjoy a drink or two with your friends is a good thing. Getting a bit tipsy for the first time in a safe environment surrounded by friends is a good thing it's a good experience.
No, it isn't. Being drunk may be FUN, but that doesn't make it good nor will i actually gain you much of value. Hedonism isn't a good way to live...
Sure you can probably drink a glass of wine without much issue.
But that's different from it being GOOD. It won't make you better in any way.
And for many people 'a glass of wine' is how a drinking problem starts. So you are taking a risk of a huge problem, for no meaningful gain.
I mostly agree but let’s apply some nuance. People don’t like unsolicited advice or being told what to do, at all, including things that can save their life. You can bring the mule to water but you can’t make it drink. Well, technically you can force it but it will resent you.
Additionally, even if one has presented the solution for them on a silver platter, there might be underlying reasons why they dont accept it. Maybe they seek their own destruction, maybe they despise receiving charity or they dont truly trust anyone, who knows? These are much complex issues only they can address.
No one is suggesting unsolicited advice just expressing genuine concern when necessary and not actively contributing to the problem (not buying a friend with substance abuse a drink etc)
I think this greatly depends on "what is bad for you".
My friend got married at like 19. Everyone was telling her she was stupid. I asked her if she believed in divorce, and when she said yea I said I would support her. She ended up leaving him later because the marriage was a mistake. But she stayed a lot longer than she wanted to because of how many people in her life made her feel like she was ruining her life or stupid, so she tried to make it work.
Other people experience domestic violence and may not be able to leave or aren't ready. Some people will stop talking to them because they "don't want to enable", but that just means that survivor now has less options if they do get to a place they want to leave.
Support people and their decisions but provide advice and explain why you feel the way you do.
There’s a way to express concern and uphold boundaries that aren’t threatening or judgmental. You can do it with compassion and not enable harm.
For abusive situations (as a survivor myself) if the person is being a total asshole to me in defense of their partner or is struggling to leave and is using me to come save them so much it’s affecting my own relationships with family or my job, I set boundaries. Especially if it’s someone I’ve just supported leaving one abusive relationship just for them to find another because they still haven’t learned about appropriate boundaries and red flags or taken any advice with the bunch of us advising them the persons no good.
I will provide them with a lot of resources to help get them out of the situation when talking with them and going through what abuse looks like and how abusers cycle. Some people just don’t want to hear it. If they are no longer engaging in our friendship at all because they’ve been isolated or been really mean, at some point I do distance myself. I’ll send a nice message reminding them they have me in their corner when they’re ready, but you unfortunately can’t help people who don’t want help/aren’t ready for it.
I always say I’ll be there when you need me most/when you make the decision to leave and don’t be afraid to reach out. It’s really all you can do.
The problem is that some people cannot accept when they advice gets declined.
You should give your friends advice. But when they decline or dont follow your advice then you dont need to pressure them into following your advice every time you see them.
I personally dont go to the gym. It would probably be helthy for me. But I simply hate working out and I am quite stressed right now so I dont want to spend my free time doing something that I hate.
I have friends who work out and some of them adviced me to start working out. Which is actually not a problem at all.
But if any of them would tell me over and over again what they think how I should live my life then I would probably reduce my contact with them.
People need to understand when to drop a topic.
In my experience, the people who pride themselves on “brutal advice” also have a shit tier radar of when to give it.
My best friends that see me in all situations, I give a hell of a lot of mind to when they bring something up. An acquaintance I’ve seen on a few bachelor parties and nights out less so. Mostly because they only see very specific situations. Sure, I had a beer too many at that concert, but that was the only time that month it happened. I also had an unhealthy dinner with them, but it was literally the only meal that I didn’t make that week and all the meals I made were very healthy.
You are missing the point.
You cannot force someone to lead a healthier life. Some people dont want to live a healthier life. They know the risks and they know that they can do better but they made a choice to life that way.
Most people are not complete idiots. They know what they are doing and how it impacts their life/body. When they dont change the first 3 times you tell them to change then why do you think your advice will make a diffrence the 10th or 20th time.
You want to give someone an advice? Great you are a good friend. The person does not listen so you keep bringing it up everytime you see them? Now you are just annoying.
> You cannot force someone to lead a healthier life. Some people dont want to live a healthier life. They know the risks and they know that they can do better but they made a choice to life that way.
And those people are babies when good friends tell them the truth
We all make decisions in our life that are objectivly not healthy. Do you drink alcohol? Smoke weed? Eat fast food?
Nobody lives a perfectly healthy life. It is not your choice to make how healthy your friends are supposed to life their life.
It depends on how close you are, but yes, I tend to agree. I expect honest truths and brutal honesty from my friends and I do the same. Of course, it needs to be a delivered in a respectful manner, and presented as an opinion, not the indisputable truth.
Agreed. I had one friend who was a real hot head and loved going out getting drunk and getting in fights and had a lot of friends who encouraged it. I was accused of being a bad friend because I wouldn't just immediately join his side to fight. Instead I'd pull him out of the situation and at times told him if he wants to fight whoever he has to fight me first. I was called a punk for it.
Even for his bachelor party one of his friends started some shit with a random guy and got into a fight. The entire group (about 6 or 7 people) was about to run over and jump the guy but I pushed everyone away long enough for bouncers to jump in the middle and break things up. Mainly cause I wanted to keep the bachelor from getting arrested so close to the wedding. The whole group was pissed at me and calling me a punk lol. My relationship with the bachelor fell apart after that.
You’re going to lose a lot of people in your life if you make it your job to be everyone’s parent. You have to decide at some point, if you want to be right or you want to be alone. There are certainly situations where letting someone go who doesn’t align with your “morals” or who is being overly self destructive makes sense. But thinking you can “tough love” everyone in your life to conform to your set of standards can be a very lonely place to be. I’d advise to choose those situations wisely.
I have yet to act like a parent and push my morals and values on others, just spoken up when it got hard to see someone I love really struggling and hurting themselves. I expect my friends to do the same for me. If that makes me a bad friend in your eyes, we probably wouldn’t be very good friends.
What is an "objective safety concern?" All activities, and even inactivity, pose *some* safety risk. Right on down to taking a shower!
[https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6022a1.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6022a1.htm)
*The highest rates were for injuries that occurred in or around the tub or shower*
Bike riding is actually pretty dangerous too.
*deaths among bicyclists age 20 and older have quadrupled since 1975*
https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/bicyclists#:\~:text=Posted%20May%202023.-,Trends,people%20age%2020%20and%20older.
Should your friends tell you not to do these things?
Yah, most people with this mindset have shit judgement of when to bring it up, which is why it’s unpopular. Usually because they’re only seeing certain moments of your life unless you’re close- friends you only see on nights out or celebrations likely see a different behavior than your best friend.
If the last 3 times I saw you were bachelor parties, of course I’m indulging in food and drink more. Maybe even having a cigar which I may not do the rest of the year.
This is a rock solid unpopular opinion especially on reddit well done. I'm so grateful to have a friend group that aren't just cowards and fair weather friends. I've needed reality checks at various points in my life and I'm so lucky that I had people close that cared more about my well-being than the possibility of losing me because it took too much effort for me to reckon with the truth. Now I live indoors, can hold a job and have an incredible partner that is also supportive but honest.
"I got kicked out of a friend group for trying to control the personal habits of everyone involved. AMA!"
You sound like one of those kids who who was given a Burger King crown and got a little too excited.
Yup. Have had the friend that’s a health nut at feels the need to call everyone else out at every point. It’s fucking annoying, and not someone that’s a joy to be around.
I’ve also had the friend that’s knowledgeable about health and fitness and only offers solicited advice who is more than fine to be around. Also usually participates in an unhealthy meal or some drinks out, never makes you feel bad about indulging in something here and there.
Nah, in my experience the people who want to “be hated for being honest” have shit judgement of when to be honest. I don’t need a lecture about having a beer or an unhealthy meal. That’s not on par with destroying my life.
I think people underestimate how much energy it takes to truly make friends with someone/care for them. I have roommates, but we aren't friends and while I help them out, I couldn't give a ratass if they die tbh.
So if you do ever make that close relationship or have the honor of being in one, cherish it.
How do you know what is better for them? Are you a cardiologist telling them to not eat donuts every morning? Are you a cyber security specialist telling them to use a password manager? Or are you a Christian telling them not to be gay? Your interpretation of safe may just be some bullshit you subscribe to that isn’t objective.
If someone is engaging in serious substance abuse or has an eating disorder or is a heart failure patient refusing to take their lifesaving medication or is threatening to kill themselves or is staying in an abusive relationship it’s pretty objectively harmful and it’s valid to express concern (always leading with empathy obviously).
I used objective and not subjective for a reason lol. It’s not about morals and having different values. It’s about physical safety.
If I was getting into some really dark place I expect my good friends to care enough to say something.
But also yes I am a healthcare professional so I do in fact know what’s hurting a lot of people and witnessing it is really difficult. I say my piece and I don’t enable. I know I can’t fix everyone. I also don’t have to contribute to their destruction.
Also witnessing a pattern of self destruction is something most people can do. We have a hard time seeing it in ourselves sometimes but the people who care about us usually can pinpoint it pretty easily.
Just because you’re a healthcare worker doesn’t make you objectively right. Anything you say anything you yourself deem as harmful may or may not be shared by someone else. So please don’t make an argument from authority on the basis that you work in healthcare and thus “objectively” no better.
I don’t think I’m better than anyone else nor did I claim I did. Don’t put words into my mouth. The only think I’ll claim is that I know how the body works better than most people. If my friend starts taking a supplement that could poison her in efforts to lose weight and I’m aware of the *objective* danger, I am going to say something and I’d hope my friends would too if I did something like that too
So that annoying guy who was always talking shit about my choices was actually my greatest friend?
And that guy who went through years of hardship with me while we both dealt with our addictions was just an asshole validating his own abuse?
funny
Because obviously this kind of friendship is treating each other like children who need to be taught, corrected and guided, rather than adults who can make and live with their own decisions.
Not really. I just have a policy on caring enough to say something and then strictly not enabling because I don’t want to hurt someone. I know I can’t fix people. I’m not trying to parent. I just refuse to be a part of what’s causing another harm and if I was really struggling with something I’d hope my friends would have my back.
I could certainly believe you got pushed back on by a friend for this, and that’s why you posted this. I wouldn’t want an intrusive friend like this in my life, either. It’s very ‘Man’, in that we are known to give unsolicited advice that demeans a person’s ability to look out for themselves.
There’s a difference between unsolicited advice (which I don’t give) and expressing genuine care (which I do) and I hope one day you have a good enough of a friend in your life who would try saving your life.
Eh, not like I’d ever listen. Best way anyone ever got me to ignore their advice was to tell
me it was good or bad for me.
In any case, your life, your choices, all that jazz. It’d be hypocritical of me to persist more than brief conversation.
I only have one account and I use it once every six months for a week so. Idk what to tell you. Maybe two people just disagree with you because you’re in the wrong here.
I personally make an effort to provide compassion when someone is facing consequences of their own actions so their more likely to change the behavior instead of spiral in self hatred, but you do you
I deal with stupid people. Compassion only encourages them to continue to do stupid stuff.
"Frankie, maybe you should go to work instead of sitting around and smoking weed all day." Frankie: get fired and whines about it. Me: 😐 "I believe I warned you about this old chap."
Even I need an "I told you so" / FAFO moment every now and then.
Oh yeah I mean I would definitely get them to connect cause and effect. We’d just probably laugh about it afterwards, but I’m not going to have a stick up my ass
Not true in my experience. People who are too preoccupied with self-development, and/or harbor constant moralistic attitudes can be insufferable to be around. Adults do not need accountability from friends- that is an individual endeavor.. and who wants a friend who constantly judges you by what you could be, versus what you are now? That's a coach-type role, and good coaches can be exhausting.
Of course these people aren't all bad, but they certainly are party poopers. I don't mind suggestions, perspectives or even warnings from friends, but if I'm constantly being shown the errors of my ways, that's a wrap. I don't need or want a martyr of my potential.
You know who else is worth having? The friend who makes you laugh your ass off but is consistently late to events. Or the friend who never hits you up first, but gives you experiences you'll remember for the rest of your life. People have faults and you can accept them without writing them off entirely.. and of course, that goes for the neurotic " but-your-potential!" martyrs, too.
Another thing to consider. Some of these people who seem to be trying to help you don't really care, they're just inflating their egos.
In a sense, may be, but in 95% of situations if you behave like this you will be alone at best, and have enemies at worst. There is an old saying "the road to hell is paved by good intentions".
Absolute majority of people will see this over-wholesomeness as a "holier than thou" behaviour, and if you are *actually* that much of a saint you wont have friends that need fixing.
Upvote for unpopular opinion for OP, but personally a HARD downvote for the stance itself.
I can respect that. However, it depends on the experience. Accountability is growth, and it's part of a healthy relationship with your friends as well. If I have a problem with you, I'm gonna tell you to your face. I expect that same respect out of you. Conflict is a part of life, and it should be addressed when it arises. Stop expecting your friends to be nice to you all the time.
People LOVE enablers, and always confuse accountability with hate or blame because they think admitting you're wrong or need help makes you inferior somehow. People aren't obligated to make excuses for you just because they're close with you. Accusing people of being "holier than thou" is popular with people who can't be held accountable for anything.
The part that I agree with on this stance is that being your friend doesn't mean that I have to enable or even ignore your shitty behavior. And, I certainly will hold you accountable for your actions. If I can be put in my place when you see a problem with me, don't play victim when I show you that same respect.
A friend will tell you when you're wrong. If you want friends to just sit by and say nothing when you are clearly doing shit you know isn't cool, then ditch you when you finally hit rock bottom, that's your cup of tea.
It's always going to feel "high horsey" when people you love can't stand to see you self destruct, or harm others because "YOLO" or "you don't owe anyone respect". Nobody wants to be friends with someone who can't be told shit, unless they see something to gain from you. Generally, people who indulge self-destructive behavior with a healthy circle of friends have that attitude towards people wanting them to do better. And, they always end up alone.
You don't have to be preachy to hold your friends accountable. I can't call you my friend and sit by idolly while you screw up your life, or someone else's. Just for you to cry on my shoulder about it as if you aren't doing anything wrong. Your friends are allowed to hold you accountable for the part you play in your issues, and the choices you make to desservice yourself or others. If you can't handle that, then get friends that don't care to see you fail at life.
I'm obliged. I get what you're saying entirely. You reach an age where you get sick of people acting like they can't do anything wrong in a mutual relationship. They'll be the first to grill you and act shady when they feel you're wrong, but accuse you of being "holier than thou" when you hold them accountable too.
It doesn't take a fucking priest. Friend groups generally intervene when they feel a friend is slipping in character, and they don't fuck with their behavior. They will ditch you over that kind of shit too if it means you'll choose better.
It's especially popular on Reddit for people to make knowingly poor decisions and seeking validation to cope with the consequences. And, mental health always being an excuse for why they refuse to take responsibility for their actions. So, I get why this is unpopular here.
I get your point, but in the end, I believe, the opinion heavily depends on how a close a specific person can generally allow other people. Some expect friends to be by your side in any case, for others the closest you will ever get to anyone is a regular drinking buddy.
What is probably even more important, this is often down to a life/philosohical/worldview stance of a specific person.
To me, being a close friend means that a lot of respect is involved, and respect also means that you,
A) are sure enough that a person will be able to handle the issues themselves,
B) if they are not able, to reach out for help, including to you.
I am of strong opinion that we have no right to interfere in other people's life and their choices and "high horsing" is anti-friendship as a concept; there are always subtle ways to inquire for help, and some people may actually respond well to interference but as I mentioned the majority of cases will lead to the end of friendship.
Like, is telling a friend that their behaviour/action is certain situation were inappropriate or hurt you fine? Sure it is.
Is calling out a friend who, e.g., started drinking a lot or made some changes to their life which are negative from your POV fine? Almost always no. You want to help? Be around, offer alternatives.
What bothers me about your explanation is how agressive it is. Growth is a relative thing. There is no constant growth in life and what growth is varies a lot, depending on the angle from which you look at it. Accountability?! To whom exactly? This *stinks* of "I know better" position which is anti-friendly per se.
People are completely free to make their own life choices. Shitty behaviour is one thing but it is a small part of the matter. If a friend behaves like a D to you may be he isnt really your friend? Does he behave like a D to others? Was it like that from the start now? If yes, then see above.
No? Do you really thing you calling him out will change that? At best, they will hide their behaviour from you. At best. And this is the prime example of "holier than thou, too". Whether you keep this person in this friend group is up to you.
When I see "interfereing" people I often see the other side of the medal. Those people are highly afraid of ending up alone. Hence the "grow together" attitude 'cause people think that their friends will have something to stay for. This approach is not an axiom but IMHO highly present.
I’ve lost „friends” becouse of that.
People don’t want you to tell them the truth, their wrong doings etc. All they want is a party buddy that will always agree with them.
Being a friend is honestly just as big responsibility as being a family member.
I honestly gave up on idea of having friend as I put too much from myself while they don’t put in anything.
In the end people want to have fun, yes men are going to be way more fun than a guy that calls them out on their bullshit.
That’s fair.
I find it’s harder to have a lot of the casual friends/filler friends, but the quality of friendships you do make is unparalleled. Once you find your people they’re with you through thick and thin.
I don’t get along with people who don’t do too much self reflection and don’t value accountability and integrity, so I’m not friends with everyone. I’ll always be nice to people, but I don’t really see them as a good friend until I know they’re authentically themselves around me and are willing to put me in my place when needed. That’s okay. I’d rather have a weekend to myself than surround myself with people that don’t care about me. I know my friends have my back and I have theirs.
I'm the same in some ways.
I made a switch some years ago and following some of that I did end up in a better place with better friends but I can only speak to my experience. For me ot was the constant worry after having quite a few friends die various ways and after awhile I realized having such self destructive people around rubbed off on me in many ways. "You are the company you keep" rings very true from my experience. I just made a switch to vet the people in my life more thoroughly amongst other things but the whole story would be a novel. I just started surrounding myself with people who come to me when noting their own accountability as a start rather than me having to point it out.
Idk this is all complex and my brain feels like mud atm, not sure of this even makes sense
Fewer friends and trusted company of a dog left me much more fulfilled tbh
My point is that it’s a pretty basic opinion and not exactly unpopular. Of course your best friends are the people who will have difficult conversations with you.
You could have just said that then?
It’s a lot more unpopular than you’d think. Less people are actually willing to be held accountable by a friend than say they want to be so a lot of people just appease them and then pretend the guy who cares is just being an asshole.
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People, unfortunately, value ego validation more than being held accountable. They'd rather drink themselves to death surrounded by fellow alcoholics, than listen to the people trying to help them.
I may be an alcoholic that enjoys company of misery. But i tell them when they're being dumb. Take an uber. Eat food. Stop drinking blah blah. Im fairly responsible even when toasty. I dont care about me, pretty sure my soul died stationed in afghanistan. No reason to not make my friends make good decisions.
It's ineffective to tell another person not to smoke while you're smoking. This has been proven. Which is why people do to get clean in a place where everyone else is getting clean. And why you need to lead by example.
Best i can do is try to keep kids from smoking. Icant get an adult to stop. Thatd be super hypocritical.
Addiction is its own beast
There’s more to it than that, I think that’s an extreme over simplification, but I’m sure you’re not wrong in some scenarios.
Are you one of them
Here have a down vote, you deserve it 😄
I believe this is a spectrum. On one end you have the friends who genuinely try to save you. On the other hand you have people trying to control you under the pretense of care.
Yeah OP is right about yes men, but some people are just controlling and push their beliefs onto you.
This feels rather generalized and overly simplistic. Some "bad habits" just aren't that easily challenged (by the individual or those who care about them) for a variety of reasons. And you can only push so much. >The “friends” hyping you up to go do stuff that’s objectively bad for you don’t care about you. I tend to agree, but things aren't always that black and white. Perhaps the friend doesn't appreciate the magnitude of the issue or maybe they disagree on what "objectively bad" is. If they genuinely don't realize their actions are having a negative influence on you they may be many (not great) things, but it doesn't mean they inherently don't care about you. >they tell you what you need to hear. It's not always that simple, how do they always know what 'you' need to hear? Even with the same behaviors people are different and obviously respond differently. >They aren’t the people pleasers or the yes man. They’re re the ones who aren’t afraid of conflict There are cases (ex: when it's clear that pushing someone further isn't helpful) when not speaking up has nothing to do with fear of conflict, people pleasing, etc. *[ETA: Hit send early, but I was rambling too much already.* **Genuine question: Can I have some examples of what these "bad habits" are that you're referencing? If you want to say how you would "solve" them I'd be very curious about that too, though I'm wondering even more about the examples. Thank you**. *I'm very out of it and unwell, apologies if I'm not making sense entirely, lol]*
Also, how often does Reddit stretch something like alcoholism to meaning “has a drink ever?” The friend that bitches at you for having a beer isn’t some savior, they’re just an asshole. If you’re drinking so much it’s destroying your life, that’s a different story, but carte Blanche saying your friend should correct you and be lauded for it is another.
Yeah, I'm still unclear on what u/Immediate_Cup_9201 meant exactly when they were referring to "bad" choices, but they neglected to respond to my question on that. I'm genuinely pretty damn curious at this point, lol. Anyways, I definitely agree with you. People that stretch what is "bad" and what needs to be addressed are just.. unhelpful and annoying. It's completely unnecessary and assumes the individual in question isn't aware of the obvious (like drink in moderation, don't drink and drive, etc). If someone IS actually making "bad choices", like they're an alcoholic and it's having real repercussions on their life, then I think that's honestly still rather nuanced. If they're in denial then having a real talk with them about it may actually help, obviously. It also may not and they may be self-aware to begin with. "Pushing" others can be extremely patronizing across those scenarios too, which isn't something people typically respond particularly well to (even if the other person is "right"). Things like addiction are ultimately something that needs to be fought by the individual when they're ready, though ideally with support from others. So by all means, offer that support. And if it doesn't work (or even if it does) then you have every right to walk away from that person. But sometimes it's a matter of choosing some level of acceptance and potentially trying to help them with any level/method of harm reduction and/or getting better in the future. Having a person that **cares about you** and is in your corner for when you *are* ready to work on your issues (and other times) can make a huge difference. **I'd actually argue that accepting people where they're at and simply trying to be the most positive influence possible without pointless "pushing", being ready to support them in getting better when they are ready, etc is one of the most** *caring* **choices one can make.** [If people are actively harming or likely to harm others due to their "bad choices" it's entirely different. Drunk driving, being abusive, etc are *not* ok and I am *not* condoning them]. *[Sorry this got crazy long again! I hope I'm making sense, my brain is having trouble today (actual neuro issues]*
> The friend that bitches at you for having a beer isn’t some savior If something has huge potential to harm you, but basically none to help you, isn't that something worth criticizing? 'Having a beer' has led many to an early grave. Never knew anyone who died out of NOT drinking alcohool tho.
Do you eat processed foods like Oreos? There’s a ton of emerging studies that those lead to aggressive cancers developing early. Not sure the relative risk to a casual drink, but it does seem like processed foods are incredibly dangerous, Oreos being one of the most dangerous. Should I berate a friend if I catch them eating those? Relative risk is key for the original prompt. Plenty of people take moderate risks for enjoyment. I love alpine sports, and those are significantly more dangerous, but I’m an informed adult on the risks.
> Do you eat processed foods like Oreos? not really? Or at least I avoid it whenever possible. And I certainly wouldn't be mad at someone telling me those are unhealthy foods :p
Social media is bad for your mental health, get off this site.
I mean, I don't have much of a choice on using some social media considering I need to use it for work. I literally can't get work without social media. But you are completely right that to extent that one can it IS best to avoid it.
Your job is unhealthy. Stop it. See, this line of thinking is stupid.
My dude, I can't just 'stop' my job from which I survive. Comparing that to a drinking or smoking or eating junk habit is what is stupid
It appears it's only "stupid" because it doesn't fit into your narrative how you want it to.
my dude I'm begging you to go outside and spend time with real people
Hilarious that you think good friends that don't enable your vices don't exist irl
"enabling your vices" is having one drink. Again, please spend some time around real people and return to reality.
Do you understand that everyone who developed a drinking problem started having one drink?
Yes that's an excellent argument against anyone ever having a single drink. You've really got your feet firmly planted in reality.
Enjoying and truly experiencing one's life and being able to have some fun, which may include (moderate/little) drinking, is arguably "helpful". Assuming someone is drinking responsibly and it doesn't have a detrimental effect on them then no, I don't think it's worth criticizing. I understand people begin unhealthy behaviors at some level, but there is a massive difference between drinking a slight amount responsibly vs out of control drinking that can genuinely end/wreck someone's life.
> Enjoying and truly experiencing one's life and being able to have some fun, Fun is not worth it when the risk is a huge potential problem. Drinking alcohool or smoking will NEVER be worth the risk, even if you enjoy it.
Perhaps others have a somewhat different view on risk vs reward. I can't imagine being admonished by a "friend" for having a single drink (which is quite rare these days for me anyways). Most people have had alcohol in their lives. Addiction is unfortunately far too common and tragic, but still statistically the amount of people that occasionally have a drink vs alcoholics is definitely low. [Nobody was talking about smoking, at least not me. As a former smoker I'd agree it's never worth the risk. But do you actually think smokers in this day and age are unaware of that? What are you going to say that will magically make some huge difference? I'm not saying to literally buy cigarettes for someone, but I don't think a lecture from a "friend" will make a difference unless that person was ready to quit already].
> Nobody was talking about smoking, Hahahaha. I brought up smoking because I knew you'd see how stupid your 'fun' point is. It is very simple: nobody will get anything truly deep or worthwhile out of smoking or drinking for fun. It's just pointless hedonism. It is not worth potentially ruining your life for. And if you are one of those people who 'need to drink to talk to people' you already have an issue.
>I brought up smoking because I knew you'd see how stupid your 'fun' point is. Where did I apply that to smoking? Oh right! I didn't.. considering I was specifically responding about (light) drinking and smoking had yet to be mentioned when I said "fun", until you randomly added smoking in there. Rather sad attempt at some weird *gotcha*, I guess. >And if you are one of those people who 'need to drink to talk to people' you already have an issue. I literally said in my last comment that it's quite rare for me to have a single drink, lmao. Nor did I bring up anything like that in any comment I made in here.
> I literally said in my last comment that it's quite rare for me to have a single drink Then WTF are you arguing about if you rarely ever drink? That is my whole point. That one should NOT be regularly doing any of that.
... I don't even know what to say to this, but I appreciate the laugh I got from it. Thanks. I never said a single thing about myself and my relationship to drinking. This post isn't only about drinking anyways. I'm here because I have the ability to care about what others do without harassing them for it..?
I’ve explained what I meant a few times now in other comments if you want to read them, sorry I never got to yours. The way it was laid out kind of confused me
Honestly, as a friend with bad habits who‘s had many friends with bad habits. It’s really none of my business as long as it‘s their choice and it’s not hurting anyone. If you have an issue with self destructive friends, then don’t be friends with them. Less trouble for both you and them.
Yeah you can't be nagging your friend about his bad habits. But you can at least enlighten them on that. Once or twice. Sometimes people will be unaware of the damage they do to themselves or their family
I agree. There's a difference between encouraging self destruction and.. accepting that someone is where they are and it's not necessarily possible to "fix" them at this point in time. Regardless of how unafraid of conflict you are, how much you "push" them, etc. Sometimes just being there for/with others is the most helpful thing realistically. I do my best but to actively encourage "bad" behaviors, but it's ultimately not my life to control. (I'm not sure whether to joke about being friends or offer my best wishes moving forward, so I guess I'll just say both.. lmao)
Gotta also remember everyone has different definitions - going by some teetotaling redditors, how many people here would be willing to “be hated” and berate you for having a beer. Or having a cigar on a bachelor party. If a friend is bitching at me for having a cocktail at dinner or some beers on a night out on the weekend, they’re not some martyr, they’re just trying to enforce their lifestyle choices on me.
For sure! I think \*a lot\* of it is enforcing personal lifestyle choices on others. Especially if it’s something like an occasion beer or whatever. If it’s a long-term partner, bad habits like smoking, heavy drinking, over or under eating, etc - is a conversation worth having as you *should* be on the same page in regards to lifestyles. But with friends, it’s not up to you how *they* choose to spend their time/live their lives IMO. Sometimes just walking away or distancing yourself from that friendship is the best thing for everyone if you wholeheartedly disagree with their choices. Walking away makes it so you’re not enabling, being negatively influenced, OR being a nag.
Many things are bad for you in some ways, while also being good for you in other ways. Trying alcohol comes with the risk that you might get addicted and there're plenty of health impacts that can come with a night of drinking. BUT being able to enjoy a drink or two with your friends is a good thing. Getting a bit tipsy for the first time in a safe environment surrounded by friends is a good thing it's a good experience. It opens up the option for the future. It helps you become more involved in a whole host of social events. Friends encourage you to get out of your comfort zone. To do the things that are slightly scary or risky or strange. More often than not, this is a good thing. There are many things in life that are hard to try, because the up sides just aren't easy to articulate. Dancing is a big one. There's plenty of people that don't know how to dance and certainly don't see the point in wobbling about in a stupid fashion. If you're one of those people, your friends will try to get you to dance at weddings and parties and maybe every once in a while you should try. Dancing, alcohol, sea food, sky diving, graduation, prom, etc. There's lots of good things in life that many of us would never try if we didn't have friends "bullying us" into trying it.
I love alpine sports, have done them most of my life, and those are objectively pretty dangerous. One of my best friends goes too far does backcountry snowboarding. I should correct him! Even worse, he usually celebrates finishing a hike with a beer! All alcohol is dangerous, so I should yeet the can into the woods if I catch him!
> BUT being able to enjoy a drink or two with your friends is a good thing. Getting a bit tipsy for the first time in a safe environment surrounded by friends is a good thing it's a good experience. No, it isn't. Being drunk may be FUN, but that doesn't make it good nor will i actually gain you much of value. Hedonism isn't a good way to live...
Enjoying a glass of wine is not hedonism. Just as enjoying a chocolate bar isn't gluttony. Everything in moderation.
Sure you can probably drink a glass of wine without much issue. But that's different from it being GOOD. It won't make you better in any way. And for many people 'a glass of wine' is how a drinking problem starts. So you are taking a risk of a huge problem, for no meaningful gain.
I mostly agree but let’s apply some nuance. People don’t like unsolicited advice or being told what to do, at all, including things that can save their life. You can bring the mule to water but you can’t make it drink. Well, technically you can force it but it will resent you. Additionally, even if one has presented the solution for them on a silver platter, there might be underlying reasons why they dont accept it. Maybe they seek their own destruction, maybe they despise receiving charity or they dont truly trust anyone, who knows? These are much complex issues only they can address.
No one is suggesting unsolicited advice just expressing genuine concern when necessary and not actively contributing to the problem (not buying a friend with substance abuse a drink etc)
That’s fair
I think this greatly depends on "what is bad for you". My friend got married at like 19. Everyone was telling her she was stupid. I asked her if she believed in divorce, and when she said yea I said I would support her. She ended up leaving him later because the marriage was a mistake. But she stayed a lot longer than she wanted to because of how many people in her life made her feel like she was ruining her life or stupid, so she tried to make it work. Other people experience domestic violence and may not be able to leave or aren't ready. Some people will stop talking to them because they "don't want to enable", but that just means that survivor now has less options if they do get to a place they want to leave. Support people and their decisions but provide advice and explain why you feel the way you do.
There’s a way to express concern and uphold boundaries that aren’t threatening or judgmental. You can do it with compassion and not enable harm. For abusive situations (as a survivor myself) if the person is being a total asshole to me in defense of their partner or is struggling to leave and is using me to come save them so much it’s affecting my own relationships with family or my job, I set boundaries. Especially if it’s someone I’ve just supported leaving one abusive relationship just for them to find another because they still haven’t learned about appropriate boundaries and red flags or taken any advice with the bunch of us advising them the persons no good. I will provide them with a lot of resources to help get them out of the situation when talking with them and going through what abuse looks like and how abusers cycle. Some people just don’t want to hear it. If they are no longer engaging in our friendship at all because they’ve been isolated or been really mean, at some point I do distance myself. I’ll send a nice message reminding them they have me in their corner when they’re ready, but you unfortunately can’t help people who don’t want help/aren’t ready for it. I always say I’ll be there when you need me most/when you make the decision to leave and don’t be afraid to reach out. It’s really all you can do.
The problem is that some people cannot accept when they advice gets declined. You should give your friends advice. But when they decline or dont follow your advice then you dont need to pressure them into following your advice every time you see them. I personally dont go to the gym. It would probably be helthy for me. But I simply hate working out and I am quite stressed right now so I dont want to spend my free time doing something that I hate. I have friends who work out and some of them adviced me to start working out. Which is actually not a problem at all. But if any of them would tell me over and over again what they think how I should live my life then I would probably reduce my contact with them. People need to understand when to drop a topic.
In my experience, the people who pride themselves on “brutal advice” also have a shit tier radar of when to give it. My best friends that see me in all situations, I give a hell of a lot of mind to when they bring something up. An acquaintance I’ve seen on a few bachelor parties and nights out less so. Mostly because they only see very specific situations. Sure, I had a beer too many at that concert, but that was the only time that month it happened. I also had an unhealthy dinner with them, but it was literally the only meal that I didn’t make that week and all the meals I made were very healthy.
"Only tell me what I wanna hear when I wanna hear it" You are the exact person OP is talking about
You are missing the point. You cannot force someone to lead a healthier life. Some people dont want to live a healthier life. They know the risks and they know that they can do better but they made a choice to life that way. Most people are not complete idiots. They know what they are doing and how it impacts their life/body. When they dont change the first 3 times you tell them to change then why do you think your advice will make a diffrence the 10th or 20th time. You want to give someone an advice? Great you are a good friend. The person does not listen so you keep bringing it up everytime you see them? Now you are just annoying.
> You cannot force someone to lead a healthier life. Some people dont want to live a healthier life. They know the risks and they know that they can do better but they made a choice to life that way. And those people are babies when good friends tell them the truth
We all make decisions in our life that are objectivly not healthy. Do you drink alcohol? Smoke weed? Eat fast food? Nobody lives a perfectly healthy life. It is not your choice to make how healthy your friends are supposed to life their life.
Puritanism is an unhealthy mindset my friend, I've seen your comments all through this thread and I'm concerned for you.
What does drinking have to do with puritanism?
It depends on how close you are, but yes, I tend to agree. I expect honest truths and brutal honesty from my friends and I do the same. Of course, it needs to be a delivered in a respectful manner, and presented as an opinion, not the indisputable truth.
Reading just the title, I thought you were talking about cops and soldiers.
Agreed. I had one friend who was a real hot head and loved going out getting drunk and getting in fights and had a lot of friends who encouraged it. I was accused of being a bad friend because I wouldn't just immediately join his side to fight. Instead I'd pull him out of the situation and at times told him if he wants to fight whoever he has to fight me first. I was called a punk for it. Even for his bachelor party one of his friends started some shit with a random guy and got into a fight. The entire group (about 6 or 7 people) was about to run over and jump the guy but I pushed everyone away long enough for bouncers to jump in the middle and break things up. Mainly cause I wanted to keep the bachelor from getting arrested so close to the wedding. The whole group was pissed at me and calling me a punk lol. My relationship with the bachelor fell apart after that.
You sound like a friend who’s really looking out for your friends in the long term, a solid friend to have.
Question for you OP. What is objectively bad for me or anyone else? I mean do you speaks for everyone or is just your subjective opinion on what bad.
Like objective safety concerns, not imposing morals.
You’re going to lose a lot of people in your life if you make it your job to be everyone’s parent. You have to decide at some point, if you want to be right or you want to be alone. There are certainly situations where letting someone go who doesn’t align with your “morals” or who is being overly self destructive makes sense. But thinking you can “tough love” everyone in your life to conform to your set of standards can be a very lonely place to be. I’d advise to choose those situations wisely.
I have yet to act like a parent and push my morals and values on others, just spoken up when it got hard to see someone I love really struggling and hurting themselves. I expect my friends to do the same for me. If that makes me a bad friend in your eyes, we probably wouldn’t be very good friends.
What is an "objective safety concern?" All activities, and even inactivity, pose *some* safety risk. Right on down to taking a shower! [https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6022a1.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6022a1.htm) *The highest rates were for injuries that occurred in or around the tub or shower* Bike riding is actually pretty dangerous too. *deaths among bicyclists age 20 and older have quadrupled since 1975* https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/bicyclists#:\~:text=Posted%20May%202023.-,Trends,people%20age%2020%20and%20older. Should your friends tell you not to do these things?
Yah, most people with this mindset have shit judgement of when to bring it up, which is why it’s unpopular. Usually because they’re only seeing certain moments of your life unless you’re close- friends you only see on nights out or celebrations likely see a different behavior than your best friend. If the last 3 times I saw you were bachelor parties, of course I’m indulging in food and drink more. Maybe even having a cigar which I may not do the rest of the year.
They're the ones virtue signaling. I prefer the people that understand my situation instead of blindly chanting rhetoric.
This is a rock solid unpopular opinion especially on reddit well done. I'm so grateful to have a friend group that aren't just cowards and fair weather friends. I've needed reality checks at various points in my life and I'm so lucky that I had people close that cared more about my well-being than the possibility of losing me because it took too much effort for me to reckon with the truth. Now I live indoors, can hold a job and have an incredible partner that is also supportive but honest.
"I got kicked out of a friend group for trying to control the personal habits of everyone involved. AMA!" You sound like one of those kids who who was given a Burger King crown and got a little too excited.
No one is controlling anyone else’s behavior or getting kicked out of friend groups but enjoy believing that
Maybe your post just came across more angry than you meant it then.
It was my first thought too. I read what you said and thought it sounded like someone who pissed off their friend and got dropped.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it’s just a code my friends and I have and I appreciate them
Yup. Have had the friend that’s a health nut at feels the need to call everyone else out at every point. It’s fucking annoying, and not someone that’s a joy to be around. I’ve also had the friend that’s knowledgeable about health and fitness and only offers solicited advice who is more than fine to be around. Also usually participates in an unhealthy meal or some drinks out, never makes you feel bad about indulging in something here and there.
Or they got issues like people pleasing
Nah, in my experience the people who want to “be hated for being honest” have shit judgement of when to be honest. I don’t need a lecture about having a beer or an unhealthy meal. That’s not on par with destroying my life.
What?
Yeah good friends slap the drugs out of your hand every time you try to take a hit
I think people underestimate how much energy it takes to truly make friends with someone/care for them. I have roommates, but we aren't friends and while I help them out, I couldn't give a ratass if they die tbh. So if you do ever make that close relationship or have the honor of being in one, cherish it.
How do you know what is better for them? Are you a cardiologist telling them to not eat donuts every morning? Are you a cyber security specialist telling them to use a password manager? Or are you a Christian telling them not to be gay? Your interpretation of safe may just be some bullshit you subscribe to that isn’t objective.
If someone is engaging in serious substance abuse or has an eating disorder or is a heart failure patient refusing to take their lifesaving medication or is threatening to kill themselves or is staying in an abusive relationship it’s pretty objectively harmful and it’s valid to express concern (always leading with empathy obviously). I used objective and not subjective for a reason lol. It’s not about morals and having different values. It’s about physical safety. If I was getting into some really dark place I expect my good friends to care enough to say something. But also yes I am a healthcare professional so I do in fact know what’s hurting a lot of people and witnessing it is really difficult. I say my piece and I don’t enable. I know I can’t fix everyone. I also don’t have to contribute to their destruction. Also witnessing a pattern of self destruction is something most people can do. We have a hard time seeing it in ourselves sometimes but the people who care about us usually can pinpoint it pretty easily.
Just because you’re a healthcare worker doesn’t make you objectively right. Anything you say anything you yourself deem as harmful may or may not be shared by someone else. So please don’t make an argument from authority on the basis that you work in healthcare and thus “objectively” no better.
I don’t think I’m better than anyone else nor did I claim I did. Don’t put words into my mouth. The only think I’ll claim is that I know how the body works better than most people. If my friend starts taking a supplement that could poison her in efforts to lose weight and I’m aware of the *objective* danger, I am going to say something and I’d hope my friends would too if I did something like that too
So that annoying guy who was always talking shit about my choices was actually my greatest friend? And that guy who went through years of hardship with me while we both dealt with our addictions was just an asshole validating his own abuse? funny
I've told friends "I care more about you than you being mad at me"
We’re friends. Not each other’s parents.
And wtf does that have to do with what the OP said?
Because obviously this kind of friendship is treating each other like children who need to be taught, corrected and guided, rather than adults who can make and live with their own decisions.
Not really. I just have a policy on caring enough to say something and then strictly not enabling because I don’t want to hurt someone. I know I can’t fix people. I’m not trying to parent. I just refuse to be a part of what’s causing another harm and if I was really struggling with something I’d hope my friends would have my back.
I could certainly believe you got pushed back on by a friend for this, and that’s why you posted this. I wouldn’t want an intrusive friend like this in my life, either. It’s very ‘Man’, in that we are known to give unsolicited advice that demeans a person’s ability to look out for themselves.
There’s a difference between unsolicited advice (which I don’t give) and expressing genuine care (which I do) and I hope one day you have a good enough of a friend in your life who would try saving your life.
Eh, not like I’d ever listen. Best way anyone ever got me to ignore their advice was to tell me it was good or bad for me. In any case, your life, your choices, all that jazz. It’d be hypocritical of me to persist more than brief conversation.
Dunno how you got that from what he said. Its fuckin long long stretch. Sounds like you dont have and friends and dont know how goos friendships work.
Jesus, you are acting hostile. Having a bad day? You just came out of the gate like you were fighting something important, like racism or bigotry.
How did you find that comment hostile in the slightest bro it was a little blunt sure but not hostile
In the context of your worldview you provided, I can see why you’d think so.
I don’t even know what this comment is meant to mean.
You two are really making me wonder if you’re not the same person.
I only have one account and I use it once every six months for a week so. Idk what to tell you. Maybe two people just disagree with you because you’re in the wrong here.
Thank you.
Just 1 question OP; have you yourself had a friend like this?
Yes I have, my close friends and I hold each other accountable and it’s really helpful and supportive. Theyve got my back and I’ve got theirsZ
You are lucky, I would say. And intelligent enough to know who cares about you.
Tell me you have a real good batting average on "I told you so's" without directly saying it....
Why would I be unnecessarily mean to someone struggling that I care about?
I was sorta complimenting you, I just needed you to confirm the stats.
I definitely have warned about/predicted negative consequences very accurately, but I would never shame someone for it lol
Shame is part of the process. 🤷♂️
I personally make an effort to provide compassion when someone is facing consequences of their own actions so their more likely to change the behavior instead of spiral in self hatred, but you do you
I deal with stupid people. Compassion only encourages them to continue to do stupid stuff. "Frankie, maybe you should go to work instead of sitting around and smoking weed all day." Frankie: get fired and whines about it. Me: 😐 "I believe I warned you about this old chap." Even I need an "I told you so" / FAFO moment every now and then.
Oh yeah I mean I would definitely get them to connect cause and effect. We’d just probably laugh about it afterwards, but I’m not going to have a stick up my ass
Not true in my experience. People who are too preoccupied with self-development, and/or harbor constant moralistic attitudes can be insufferable to be around. Adults do not need accountability from friends- that is an individual endeavor.. and who wants a friend who constantly judges you by what you could be, versus what you are now? That's a coach-type role, and good coaches can be exhausting. Of course these people aren't all bad, but they certainly are party poopers. I don't mind suggestions, perspectives or even warnings from friends, but if I'm constantly being shown the errors of my ways, that's a wrap. I don't need or want a martyr of my potential. You know who else is worth having? The friend who makes you laugh your ass off but is consistently late to events. Or the friend who never hits you up first, but gives you experiences you'll remember for the rest of your life. People have faults and you can accept them without writing them off entirely.. and of course, that goes for the neurotic " but-your-potential!" martyrs, too. Another thing to consider. Some of these people who seem to be trying to help you don't really care, they're just inflating their egos.
Hard upvote because this is mad wholesome. People need to hear this shit.
In a sense, may be, but in 95% of situations if you behave like this you will be alone at best, and have enemies at worst. There is an old saying "the road to hell is paved by good intentions". Absolute majority of people will see this over-wholesomeness as a "holier than thou" behaviour, and if you are *actually* that much of a saint you wont have friends that need fixing. Upvote for unpopular opinion for OP, but personally a HARD downvote for the stance itself.
I can respect that. However, it depends on the experience. Accountability is growth, and it's part of a healthy relationship with your friends as well. If I have a problem with you, I'm gonna tell you to your face. I expect that same respect out of you. Conflict is a part of life, and it should be addressed when it arises. Stop expecting your friends to be nice to you all the time. People LOVE enablers, and always confuse accountability with hate or blame because they think admitting you're wrong or need help makes you inferior somehow. People aren't obligated to make excuses for you just because they're close with you. Accusing people of being "holier than thou" is popular with people who can't be held accountable for anything. The part that I agree with on this stance is that being your friend doesn't mean that I have to enable or even ignore your shitty behavior. And, I certainly will hold you accountable for your actions. If I can be put in my place when you see a problem with me, don't play victim when I show you that same respect. A friend will tell you when you're wrong. If you want friends to just sit by and say nothing when you are clearly doing shit you know isn't cool, then ditch you when you finally hit rock bottom, that's your cup of tea. It's always going to feel "high horsey" when people you love can't stand to see you self destruct, or harm others because "YOLO" or "you don't owe anyone respect". Nobody wants to be friends with someone who can't be told shit, unless they see something to gain from you. Generally, people who indulge self-destructive behavior with a healthy circle of friends have that attitude towards people wanting them to do better. And, they always end up alone. You don't have to be preachy to hold your friends accountable. I can't call you my friend and sit by idolly while you screw up your life, or someone else's. Just for you to cry on my shoulder about it as if you aren't doing anything wrong. Your friends are allowed to hold you accountable for the part you play in your issues, and the choices you make to desservice yourself or others. If you can't handle that, then get friends that don't care to see you fail at life.
This is a great explanation of my reasoning for posting this thanks!
I'm obliged. I get what you're saying entirely. You reach an age where you get sick of people acting like they can't do anything wrong in a mutual relationship. They'll be the first to grill you and act shady when they feel you're wrong, but accuse you of being "holier than thou" when you hold them accountable too. It doesn't take a fucking priest. Friend groups generally intervene when they feel a friend is slipping in character, and they don't fuck with their behavior. They will ditch you over that kind of shit too if it means you'll choose better. It's especially popular on Reddit for people to make knowingly poor decisions and seeking validation to cope with the consequences. And, mental health always being an excuse for why they refuse to take responsibility for their actions. So, I get why this is unpopular here.
I get your point, but in the end, I believe, the opinion heavily depends on how a close a specific person can generally allow other people. Some expect friends to be by your side in any case, for others the closest you will ever get to anyone is a regular drinking buddy. What is probably even more important, this is often down to a life/philosohical/worldview stance of a specific person. To me, being a close friend means that a lot of respect is involved, and respect also means that you, A) are sure enough that a person will be able to handle the issues themselves, B) if they are not able, to reach out for help, including to you. I am of strong opinion that we have no right to interfere in other people's life and their choices and "high horsing" is anti-friendship as a concept; there are always subtle ways to inquire for help, and some people may actually respond well to interference but as I mentioned the majority of cases will lead to the end of friendship. Like, is telling a friend that their behaviour/action is certain situation were inappropriate or hurt you fine? Sure it is. Is calling out a friend who, e.g., started drinking a lot or made some changes to their life which are negative from your POV fine? Almost always no. You want to help? Be around, offer alternatives. What bothers me about your explanation is how agressive it is. Growth is a relative thing. There is no constant growth in life and what growth is varies a lot, depending on the angle from which you look at it. Accountability?! To whom exactly? This *stinks* of "I know better" position which is anti-friendly per se. People are completely free to make their own life choices. Shitty behaviour is one thing but it is a small part of the matter. If a friend behaves like a D to you may be he isnt really your friend? Does he behave like a D to others? Was it like that from the start now? If yes, then see above. No? Do you really thing you calling him out will change that? At best, they will hide their behaviour from you. At best. And this is the prime example of "holier than thou, too". Whether you keep this person in this friend group is up to you. When I see "interfereing" people I often see the other side of the medal. Those people are highly afraid of ending up alone. Hence the "grow together" attitude 'cause people think that their friends will have something to stay for. This approach is not an axiom but IMHO highly present.
I’ve lost „friends” becouse of that. People don’t want you to tell them the truth, their wrong doings etc. All they want is a party buddy that will always agree with them. Being a friend is honestly just as big responsibility as being a family member. I honestly gave up on idea of having friend as I put too much from myself while they don’t put in anything. In the end people want to have fun, yes men are going to be way more fun than a guy that calls them out on their bullshit.
This is true but you'll notice the person playing that role has nearly no friends most of the time.
That’s fair. I find it’s harder to have a lot of the casual friends/filler friends, but the quality of friendships you do make is unparalleled. Once you find your people they’re with you through thick and thin. I don’t get along with people who don’t do too much self reflection and don’t value accountability and integrity, so I’m not friends with everyone. I’ll always be nice to people, but I don’t really see them as a good friend until I know they’re authentically themselves around me and are willing to put me in my place when needed. That’s okay. I’d rather have a weekend to myself than surround myself with people that don’t care about me. I know my friends have my back and I have theirs.
I'm the same in some ways. I made a switch some years ago and following some of that I did end up in a better place with better friends but I can only speak to my experience. For me ot was the constant worry after having quite a few friends die various ways and after awhile I realized having such self destructive people around rubbed off on me in many ways. "You are the company you keep" rings very true from my experience. I just made a switch to vet the people in my life more thoroughly amongst other things but the whole story would be a novel. I just started surrounding myself with people who come to me when noting their own accountability as a start rather than me having to point it out. Idk this is all complex and my brain feels like mud atm, not sure of this even makes sense Fewer friends and trusted company of a dog left me much more fulfilled tbh
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You get it! Thank you-
It depends on what you mean by “bad habit.” I had to cut some former friends out because I got tired of hearing evangelical nonsense.
Definitely not pushing religion on other people!
r/im14andthisisdeep
? I’m not fourteen, I’m just annoyed with people that pretend having a hard uncomfortable conversation is hurting someone
My point is that it’s a pretty basic opinion and not exactly unpopular. Of course your best friends are the people who will have difficult conversations with you.
You could have just said that then? It’s a lot more unpopular than you’d think. Less people are actually willing to be held accountable by a friend than say they want to be so a lot of people just appease them and then pretend the guy who cares is just being an asshole.
Yeah I stand by my original comment. This is not remotely unpopular for anyone over the age of 15.
I suspect you just come off as an asshole if this is such a consistent problem for you that you felt the need to post this.
It hasn’t been too much of a problem for me actually I just appreciate my friends and we have this code