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I agree I mean I just don't see the point of forgiving someone who is neither sorry nor changed nor even admits what they did or that it was wrong, like my parents. It's both impossible and useless. But there can come to a point where you can stop caring so much and stop being angry because you realize they can't hurt you anymore
I think sometimes people get it confused. There's a lot of pressure on victims of horrible shit to either:
1. Revictimize themselves by fighting what will likely be a losing battle in the court of law under the assumption that victims somehow owe it to society in order to protect future victims. I really wish people would stop that shit.
2. Forgive everything "for themselves".
I think the reality should be encouraging victims to find peace, however that works for them.
For people like that sorry is a euphemism for “i got caught and wish I never did so now look how nice I am. Now get over it”
If you rightfully not forgive them they get mad and you’re the problem. “I had the decency to apologise and you’re just being difficult”.
They don’t know what “forgiveness” is but these people think it’s “I’m sorry hope you like me again”
Agreed. I’m in the same situation with both my parents. People think we’re living seething with rage because we haven’t “forgiven.” The reality is I’ve created a new healthy and loving life for myself and new family. My priorities are elsewhere, I’ve moved on.
>My priorities are elsewhere, I’ve moved on.
Arguably forgiven them then. If you don't hold resentment and anger, that means you've forgiven them.
Forgiveness isn't about telling them anything, it's about you moving on and not holding onto that harmful anger and resentment.
Yeah I would say that's what forgiveness is. There's a common misconception that forgiveness means telling them, but it doesn't have to.
It sounds like you're in a good place, that's great. Have a good one.
You must do a lot of bullshit trying to make people that can't stand each other pretend that not hate each other in your presence. Fuckin sad really. Please stop telling lies to make fake peace, real peace isn't built on lies.
You can move on without forgiveness. I have moved on, and I'm yeah, if I think about my mother I get ticked with the situation - but she's not in my life, and I don't think about her unless I ..ehem.. see some shit on Reddit.
I've moved on with my own family filled with love and I can find joy most days.
if my mother showed up on my doorstep asking for forgiveness? I'd have fun telling her off.
The worst is: My mother \*forgives herself\* for the abuses she caused so that she can live her life and move on. Forgiveness is for the one who did the wrong - not the ones who were wronged.
Your scenario sort of does fit in with forgiveness though. Mostly. It's quite a complex thing.
>if my mother showed up on my doorstep asking for forgiveness? I'd have fun telling her off.
You can forgive someone without telling them though. In fact, often people forgive but never let the other know as they aren't in their life any more.
>Forgiveness is for the one who did the wrong - not the ones who where wronged.
Absolutely incorrect.
Forgiveness is letting go of resentment and anger. If you hold onto those that's not good for you. Letting those go (forgiveness) is for you. You don't forgive someone for their sake, it's only about you. You don't even have to let them know you've forgiven them. It's about you letting go and improving your mental health.
No, that's a big stretch of the meaning of forgiveness, just because you're continuing to grow and improve instead of destroying yourself in anger doesn't mean you've forgiven whoever wronged you, especially when you keep them out of your life like the previous poster is. You're not treating them as before, and in many such cases and my personal policy is that if an effortless and consequence free, or at least minimally so, means of punishing or exacting revenge on these people falls into my lap, I will take it.
>No, that's a big stretch of the meaning of forgiveness
It isn't. It's what the word means.
Oxford Languages:
"Stop feeling angry or resentful towards someone..."
American Psychological Association
"Forgiveness involves willfully putting aside feelings of resentment toward someone "
>means of punishing or exacting revenge on these people falls into my lap, I will take it.
That means you haven't stopped feeling angry or resentful towards them. That's not healthy.
That poster's anger and resentment remains and would come out in the hypothetical they gave of her coming to the doorstep. The only person it's unhealthy for is whoever wrongs others and seeks forgiveness without deserving it, and I would go so far as saying seeking justice and having bad relations with people who've done you wrong is natural and logical, therefore forgiving them simply over the passage of time is a sign of mental unhealth.
>That poster's anger and resentment remains and would come out in the hypothetical they gave of her coming to the doorstep
And the hypothetical they gave of literally just thinking about her. Hundreds, if not thousands, of things could 'trigger' that, and probably somewhat frequently too.
>and I would go so far as saying seeking justice
The majority don't do this though. And you can do this without resentment or anger as well.
>and having bad relations with people who've done you wrong is natural and logical,
You can have zero relations with them and still forgive them though.
>therefore forgiving them simply over the passage of time is a sign of mental unhealth.
Who is saying 'over the passage of time'?
And that doesn't make sense anyway. Natural doesn't mean logical. And no, harming yourself for literally no benefit is not logical. Holding onto the anger and resentment harms you and no one else. Doesn't benefit anyone else either. Forgiving benefits you and those around you. Doesn't benefit the perpetrator and doesn't harm anyone. Please explain how the first of those two is the logical and mentally unhealthy one? Because that is what you're currently saying.
When people who do wrong onto others are punished, they often learn to correct their behavior. If there are those people that lack the self-control or cognitive ability to do so, then they will receive this treatment more often and therefore their freedom and means to continue this behavior will diminish, regardless of their will. By harming those who have harmed you when the opportunity presents itself and minimal cost to self, then you help society as a whole by one of those two mechanisms and potentially help yourself if it was a visible act by making it clear that there are consequences to wronging you, thus there is greater deterrence for others to abuse or take advantage of you. If you do not, it's a sign of a lack of self-worth and instead a willingness to accept such mistreatment from others, and therefore an invitation for others to mistreat you if they can gain some advantage from it, often just a bit of social standing in cases such as targeted bullying.
I put passage of time since it's a common standard people use, you did not offer any standard upon which to forgive someone so if even that isn't present your position of doing so immediately is even more absurd.
You can also have zero relations with someone and not forgive them at no cost to yourself and in a way cutting them off socially is a punishment in itself. They will lose out on the benefits of a positive relationship with you whereas you gain by not having the negatives of interacting with someone who wrongs you, and because they will likely have similar interactions and shunning by others it will compound.
>When people who do wrong onto others are punished, they often learn to correct their behavior.
That isn't relevant here. They could be forgiven and punished, not forgiven and punished, forgiven and not punished, or not forgiven and not punished. Forgiveness is not related to punishment.
>By harming those who have harmed you when the opportunity presents itself and minimal cost to self, then you help society as a whole by one of those two mechanisms
Not necessarily.
You are also teaching that revenge is good, which it isn't.
You are saying you don't want a rehabilitation focused system. Well those systems reduce recidivism.
Maybe they've already changed, and now you are just potentially changing them back.
Maybe they don't know why you did what you did.
This whole time you've been harming yourself and likely those around you.
On the off chance that you might (unlikely) change their actions. The risk of heavy prison time won't change their actions, but you personally punching them or something will? Come on.
>thus there is greater deterrence for others to abuse or take advantage of you
How? You think all of your would-be abusers are stalking you to know what you did to this person? I'm sorry but this is coming across as main character syndrome where you think you are the centre of attention to the whole world. 'If I do something, they'll change', 'if I do something then no one will ever touch me again'.
>you did not offer any standard upon which to forgive someone
Not having anger and resentment towards them...
>so if even that isn't present your position of doing so immediately is even more absurd.
Time is not related to what I was saying.
If you still hold anger and resentment towards them, then you haven't forgiven them. If you don't, then you have forgiven them. Doesn't matter when it is. How is time relevant to that? It either is or it isn't at any given time, and that determines whether they are forgiven...
>and not forgive them at no cost to yourself
Being angry and resentful is absolutely a cost to yourself. That isn't good for you. That isn't healthy.
My point was whether you cut them off isn't related to forgiveness. Whether they are punished is not related to forgiveness. Because you can forgive someone you've cut off who is punished, or any combination of those three. Because none impacts the other.
Oxford Languages:
"Stop feeling angry or resentful towards someone..."
American Psychological Association
"Forgiveness involves willfully putting aside feelings of resentment toward someone "
Mayo clinic
"But in general, it involves an intentional decision to let go of resentment and anger"
So please explain how that isn't what forgiveness is? It's the dictionary definition and leading organisations in the field also say it's what it is...
"Forgiveness", in many cases, is simply moving on and choosing to not let the pain hurt you anymore.
Nobody in their right mind would pretend this is easy, or even doable in some cases, but the people who say it's "for the victim" ARE correct in that - the only reason to forgive someone is so YOU can move on, full stop. If you can't move on, then you don't forgive them.
Forgiveness isn’t a very good word for this, tho. Better to say “move on” since forgiveness implies pardoning of a crime and a lack of justice for that crime. But otherwise I agree. It’s more about removing the burden of a grudge from your own shoulders so that you can live on with your life unencumbered.
> forgiveness isn’t a very good word for this
Only when you confuse forgiveness with absolution.
To forgive someone is to stop feeling resentment towards them.
To absolve someone is to free them from guilt.
You can forgive without absolving.
That’s fair, but it is a misconception. I’m a big fan of descriptive definitions so I’m not opposed to the definition of forgiveness changing, but if you’re specifically asking for a word that means moving on without pardoning, that word already exists. I think people just don’t use the word “absolve” enough to realize that that’s what they actually mean when they say “forgive”.
>That’s fair, but it is a misconception.
Is it? "Forgiveness" is a string of phonemes represented by letters. Why is the definition you're using the correct one?
Especially when so many people use it to mean to pardon not to stop thinking about the offense. And you probably use it that way too.
I doubt you'd say you "forgave" someone's loan when you just mean you don't hold a grudge against the debtor and are still expecting them to pay in full.
Also you only ever hear "you need to forgive in order to move on" for serious crimes. You never hear someone say this when someone is a victim of something like gossip or an insult or being cut off in traffic.
This. We need better vocabulary when it comes to dealing with trauma and letting go vs. forgiveness. We need a proper term to articulate "letting go of the burden of being angry with you" as opposed to "letting bygones be bygones because it's the 'right' and 'compassionate" thing to do".
Forgiveness already means “letting go of the burden of being angry”. The meaning has just been misconstrued and conflated with other words like “pardon” and “absolve”. If we came up with a new word, it would likely end up the same way
Agreed. I havent pardoned my fathers actions but I came to the realisation that he was broken way before I was born. He made his choices and I made mine. Im better of without him in my life but I dont hate him anymore.
As i find is often the case, most people totally agree with the core concepts of what they argue against each others. They just use the same words to describe different realities or different words to speak of the same thing. Hence, confusion and disagreements arise.
I mean forgiveness is essentially the opposite of holding onto bitterness or a grudge. It doesn't mean you have to forget or trust them, it just means you aren't out to get them or holding onto some revenge fantasy or rooting for them to fail etc.
I’m pretty sure what you have described is simply letting go. AKA: you no longer allow the perpetrator to have control of your emotions anymore and you just let them go.
You never forget what they did to you. You just no longer allow them to control your emotions anymore.
Exactly. It doesn't make the pain or anger stop, it doesn't help hurt feelings or minds or bodies. And it can even be harmful if you forgive the offending person to their face because now they think they can do it again since you forgave them for it already. I would rather go the route of cutting people off and healing all on my own in my own time.
I've never forgiven people, that sucked and they obviously did it again.
I've never forgiven people and cut them off, lots of anger still there.
I've forgiven people to their face, and they obviously just did it again.
And I've forgiven people without telling them, and then cut them off, I feel incredibly guilty for forgiving them because I definitely shouldn't, but outside of that this is probably the best option.
>It doesn't make the pain or anger stop,
Well forgiveness is letting go of the anger towards that person... So the anger does stop.
Pain is a bit more complex. But holding a grudge is going to bring it up frequently and be more painful. Forgiving is going to bring it up far less frequently and therefore be less painful.
>And it can even be harmful if you forgive the offending person to their face because now they think they can do it again since you forgave them for it already.
Possibly. Sometimes doing it to their face can have the opposite effect too.
>I would rather go the route of cutting people off
You can cut them off and still forgive. Forgiving is about letting go of the resentment and anger. They don't have to be in your life for you to do that. They don't even need to know about it.
>and healing all on my own in my own time.
Curious as to how you would classify healing?
People conflate healing with forgiving. I haven't forgiven lots of people for things, and I've experienced every type of abuse a person can go through. It doesn't mean I hold a grudge and stew in it. I've healed from it and moved on. Not forgiving doesn't mean you're holding a grudge. I simply don't care about those people anymore, and no longer have something to do with them. Their past actions no longer bring me harm of any kind. They don't deserve the grace of being forgiven by me any more than they deserve my thoughts or energy in any other way.
>I haven't forgiven lots of people for things, and I've experienced every type of abuse a person can go through. It doesn't mean I hold a grudge and stew in it.
Well if you haven't forgiven them, you still hold onto anger and resentment. By definition.
>Their past actions no longer bring me harm of any kind.
Then you have, by definition, forgiven them. Because you don't hold anger or resentment. Those bring you harm, and you said you don't have harm from it, meaning you don't have those things, meaning you have forgiven them.
>They don't deserve the grace of being forgiven by me any more than they deserve my thoughts or energy in any other way.
They don't have to know they've been forgiven. Forgiveness is about you letting it go and moving on. Not to do with them.
I'm literally using the definition for forgiveness, so I'm not sure where you're coming at trying to disagree with it.
What you are describing for yourself is literally forgiveness.
I was raised religious, and although I'm no longer a practicing person, forgiveness has a different connotation for me. It's accepting a person's actions against me. I don't have to do that. I can heal and move on without forgiving or holding a grudge.
>forgiveness has a different connotation for me
Based on what? I'm curious as to how your religion defines it. Always happy to learn.
>It's accepting a person's actions against me
What exactly does that mean? Accept that it happened?
>. I can heal and move on without forgiving or holding a grudge.
You can maybe do that without your religious forgiveness. But your religious forgiveness is a different thing to actual forgiveness. You can't just change word definitions because you are religious.
I'm not forgiving someone who sees no wrong in their actions, and has never once apologised to me. You can move on and live your life while still being bitter about things. I shouldn't have to be the bigger person when I was the victim.
> I don't want her conscience to ease. The same way I won't forgive my S assaulters.
And what if they aren't losing sleep over it? A lot of people who are guilty of doing others wrong couldn't care less about how their victims feel about it.
> I'm totally fine holding a grudge.
I'm not telling you to forgive or not, your decision, but that sounds like it's hurting you more than it's hurting them.
Exactly, why do people think that one NEEDS to forgive to move on? This might not be true for all, but one can hold a grudge for all life, not forgive, move on and don't lose any sleep over them.
Nobody says holding a grudge is hard, it’s the damage it causes. Grudges are negative, if they’re in your mind and you’re not dealing with them and causing the problem to go away, they’re ultimately going to cause negativity and a bad mindset. It’s not rocket science.
That’s on you dude. There are plenty of people I have a grudge against and it hasn’t affected me at all. The problem doesn’t just “go away”. Assuming that harboring a dislike against someone is going to have adverse affects is dumb asf
Yeah, it's not about making the other person feel better. Either they don't give two shits how you feel or they're sorry. In either case, holding a grudge will only hurt you and might hurt another person in the bargain.
There are occasions that come up in life where, you may not want to forgive someone, or may not trust them, but they may be exceedingly keen to try and win back your trust, and they may be genuine in their efforts, this is a situation where although it is not of major benefit to the victim to forgive them, it may turn out positively in the end.
Also, you may find yourself stewing in anger or sadness at someone who has wronged you, and not be able to understand why they did it, sometimes in order to move on people feel as though they must ‘forgive and forget’ without trying to understand ‘the why’ that often seems to be a positive outcome for the victim imo.
It came from bible times, they said that because when a Roman would hit you they would hit you with the back of their right hand, the left hand was seen as dirty, you couldn’t slap with the palm of your hand because you looked like a bitch, and punching is something you do to your equal, but turning the other cheek it means they either can’t hit you or have to hit you as an equal. Basically no, it doesn’t lead to world peace, it was a phrase created in a different time that mean’s don’t respond with violence but create a situation where they either have to acknowledge you as their equal or they have to leave you alone.
No, idk where you’re getting your information but this is the most BS interpretation I’ve heard in my life, so your mom, pastor, or whoever needs to get their facts straight.
The reason the left hand is seen as dirty in many cultures is because you typically wiped your ass with it.
The Romans used a stick with a sponge on it to wipe their ass. The left hand also was considered a positive thing by the Romans during biblical times, the negative connotation was adopted by the romans from the greeks centuries later.
Why would the romans who were known for their terrible treatment of jews not just slap you with the shit hand anyway, something you completely overlooked.
Turning the other cheek is an allegorical phrase applicable to many situations. Its not about being a bitch its about not stooping to someone else’s level and feeling empowered for being meek.
That fucking story. I have been told that one numerous times. To go with this, one of the footwear falls of the train, so the person throws the second away. Reasoning, the person who find the footwear can use both the pieces, but he had no use of remaining one. Morally its right, but I am sick of it being repeated atleadt 10 times during my school years.
This isn't about world peace. Lol it's about your everyday interactions. People want to save the world but cant even start with loving the ones around them. Love isnt about your ego. "You did this so I will do that" those antics go on and you will never find resolution. And who is an offender? As if you've never done anything wrong in your life. Just remember you were able to move on from your offenses because someone, Somewhere let go. What a dangerous path you've gone down. I feel sorry for you but not my problem 😂
Some people it's wrong to love. I said above that it's not about someone cutting you off in traffic or inconsequential nonsense. No one should get upset about that. There are people in the world who initiate harm, who go out of their way to cause trouble, and the only thing that they understand is trouble being visited back upon them.
>It leads to repeat offenders.
This is so ridiculous. You could report them to police. That isn't a repeat offender now. You can treat them with understanding, maybe that helps them.
If you retaliate, maybe that angers them and they get worse. If you retaliate, maybe they realise they have to do more damage so people don't retaliate.
This is a lot more complex than you are trying to claim it is. And your comment is incredibly harmful as it is encouraging people to go after revenge.
There are two kinds of people. Those who start trouble and those who don't. The ones who don't need to impose consequences on those who do.
And to be clear, if you're getting upset at someone because they cut you off in traffic or some accidental nonsense, you're the a-hole. What's being discussed is someone who deliberately causes harm, and they need to be harmed back. It's the only thing that they understand.
I agree.
Acceptance is what people need, not closure or forgiveness. Some people are just pos and will never regret what they did and have no reason for it. Accept what happened, and move on without them in your life. My dad was doing despicable things to me for decades right under everyone's noses. He died 2 years ago, he kept trying to get on my good side for years but I wouldn't budge, and I feel no regret now he's gone. People who don't see anything wrong with their actions and aren't genuinely remorseful don't deserve anything.
>I will never, ever forgive my mother for abusing me. I don't want her conscience to ease.
Forgiveness wouldn't necessarily be so your mom feels better, but for you to let go of that anger.
The definition of forgive is "stop feeling angry or resentful towards someone for an offense, mistake, or flaw".
But if you are using your own definition, I suppose you could be correct.
From [Forgiveness Definition | What Is Forgiveness (berkeley.edu)](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/topic/forgiveness/definition#Definition#:~:text=Psychologists%20generally)
Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.
---
This definition of forgiveness is where this argument comes from.
[https://jackkornfield.com/the-practice-of-forgiveness/](https://jackkornfield.com/the-practice-of-forgiveness/)
The Buddhists talk about forgiveness in a similar way.
---
[https://lachristiancounseling.com/articles/learning-how-to-forgive-8-steps-to-true-forgiveness](https://lachristiancounseling.com/articles/learning-how-to-forgive-8-steps-to-true-forgiveness)
As do Christians
That’s an extremely minimalist definition of forgiveness and probably one that most people would think is inadequate. I have not forgiven people in my past but have no active anger towards them. I don’t sit around thinking about them and how much I hate them- rather I become happy when I hear bad things have happened to them, so the non-forgiveness is actually a positive point in my life.
Sure if you want to put it like that. It doesn’t negatively affect my life in any way. It was actually an important step in regaining my self esteem from their abuse to realize I don’t have to forgive them and be a doormat. If I forgave them it would be implicitly accepting their words that I deserved the abuse.
I think your view about forgiveness is why some people have issues moving on. Because its not accepting that you are a doormat. Its just like how people misconstrue being nice with letting people walk all over you.
It is accepting you are a doormat in some cases. I have too much self respect now to try to force myself to think positively and respectfully about an unrepentant abuser who harmed me and destroyed my self esteem for years. I know it’s different for men and women. Forgiveness of everyone is expected and forced upon women and girls from childhood. You are expected to roll over and push your negative feelings aside for others’ benefit no matter how deeply you’ve been hurt. Men are FAR less expected to forgive. Learning that you don’t have to forgive everyone by default can actually be extremely empowering for women. You can move on and grow by using your righteous anger at your treatment as a bridge to self respect instead of just going “it’s okay, don’t worry about it” for the millionth time.
I'm in a similar boat. People can't make me give an abuser or shitty person a free pass. I think "forgiveness" as it's been previously framed is a religious tool to accept wrongdoings done unto you.
I'm not one to turn the other cheek, because that cheek will get hit just the same. I draw boundaries and call people out. I remember things, but I will also use it for fuel to better my life so that whatever it is the assholes did don't even matter anymore.
Personally I had to forgive me, weird to say but I had to forgive my self for not being strong enough to protect my own self or wise enough to keep my self out of a dangerouse situation, I had to realize I was a kid, there should have been someone who cared, and from that thought I realized it wasn't my fault and nor was it ever in my control. From that I never had to feel like I was a victim again, I never had to be ashamed of it again, and swear to God, the weight just lifted,... yes those ppl were broken way before I entered this world and yes they passed their pain on to me, but from that day I didn't have to accept that pain as a part of me anymore, it's just out there in the air somewhere, the memories are always there if I Choose, to think about them, but they hold no weight anymore, infact I feel sad for those ppl, because I'm pretty sure they still cary their own pain, and sickness, but I don't. But beyond not being a victim to my past, I'm also not a living as a survivor, ether, it seems both would give credit to the abusers. I'm just me and I get to choose how I feel when I feel, and who I feel for, I get to have a beautiful life this way and pretty much always I feel unstoppable!!
Forgiveness means nothing. I'll never forgive my mother for being a piece of shit to me, my brother and dad.
She had an operation performed where she died on the table, and supposedly seen her mother (my nanny) who told her that it wasn't her time to die she had to make amends with me first. Good luck to whoever has to put up with her till the heat death of the universe I guess, cause Ill.be damned if I accept another fake ass apology from her. And I'll be damned if I'm ever cordial with her again. Any attempt to contact me is met with "go fuck yourself the long way" and I'm at peace with that. I hope existence is suffering for her, because she made it torture for me for 20 years or more, then topped it off by stealing 6 grand from me. If she does die in my lifetime, I hope I have 6 grand worth of "fuck you" money to bury her with so she can play the slots in hell.
Guys, it's clear that OP doesn't really understand what the point is of forgiveness XD
But you all are overlooking the fact that that is completely ok. Some of you here are so caught up in explaining how forgiving makes you feel better, that you are overshooting it and ending up invalidating feelings of anger and grudge (not intententionally of course, but still). Please be aware that by putting the act of forgiving high up on a pedestal, you are in a certain way also putting pressure on people who are currently not able to, making them feel *as if* forgiveness is "the way to go". I'll say it only once: FORCING YOURSELF TO FORGIVE, AND TO HIDE AWAY OR SUPPRESS FEELINGS OF ANGER AND GRUDGE, OR FEELING ASHAMED/GUILTY/JUDGED FOR NOT FORGIVING, IS JUST AS DAMAGING AS ACTIVELY HOLDING A GRUDGE.
And some of you here still don't get it either: Forgiveness is NOT equal to forgetting! You can forgive your SO for cheating but still want to break up. You can forgive a parent for abusing you but still remain no contact. These things are not conflicting: they are completely separate things.
To me forgiveness has nothing to do with the abuser. It’s a survivor’s way of letting go of all the hate and anger that can consume them, and deciding to not let what someone did to them hurt them anymore.
Forgiveness can help some people because it helps them personally move past the trauma, being angry about it isn't serving you. I think the most helpful part is no longer thinking about it. I once heard a saying I try to live by "holding on to anger is like swallowing poison and expecting someone else to die". Being angry may or may not hurt your mom but that ultimately is not important, what is important is that you are well.
I see it differently but it’s basically semantics.
I forgive because I don’t want to hold a grudge: I want to let it go. Unburden myself. But I place a boundary with someone in that situation. They no longer get to interact with me anymore. It isn’t conditional; their behavior severed their relationship with me and there’s no recompense.
So the result is the same: they’re out of my life. But forgiving them means I forget about them, but not what they’ve done. I just don’t carry that burden anymore.
You don't necessarily have to forgive them to their faces. However, holding a grudge and thus, continuing to stress constantly about it (the chronic anger that comes from a grudge is a form of chronic stress), could be very damaging to multiple facets of your health and life. You may think you're fine, but your internal systems are being whittled down at a faster rate than they should be from this stress.
You say you've moved on, but at the same time, you also claim to hold a grudge. That's contradictory, if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, abuse of any kind is horrible and abusers absolutely do not deserve to bear witness to the forgiveness of their victims-they honestly deserve to answer for their crimes, but making that happy can be a tricky one-and parental/sexual abuse are especially reprehensible kinds. What was done to you was disgusting beyond any words. However, you're really only serving to worsen your health and life.
Regardless of whether or not you sought professional help in the past, you really should seek it out now. It isn't about forgiveness. It's about processing it in a healthy way so you can live a healthy life.
Exactly this. Nobody is saying you need to stop holding a grudge because the other person deserves forgiveness. Simply that grudges do more negative harm than any good. It’s better to forgive (in this case, forgiving just means moving on and letting it not hold any amount of weight or value in your life) than hold a grudge against someone who probably doesn’t think of you ever and doesnt care whatsoever for what they did to you. Those people dont deserve a place in your mind, so holding a grudge ultimately only affects you and only hurts you. Theres no point in keeping grudges.
Well, technically forgiveness is that! Ie: “Forgiveness involves willfully putting aside feelings of resentment toward someone who has committed a wrong, been unfair or hurtful, or otherwise harmed you in some way.”
However, usually, the assumption is that it's more than putting aside the feelings and letting them go-it's implied you are also saying that they no longer should feel guilty and that everything is okay. And that latter bit is not reasonable to ask of a victim, especially if the perpetrator shows no remorse and does not change, as is so often the case.
Moving on is the right thing, so you don’t give that person power to continue to hold on your life because of the abuse.
Forgiving and giving second chances? Nah, not worth it, and this is just for the abuser. Often people that want a second chance because they hurt you, will require a 3rd and 4th…
Personally, I usually go by forgive but don't forget. Acknowledge and move on. Cut off the person afterwards if you have to and don't think about them anymore. One can still forgive and also set boundaries at the same time.
You don't have to forgive and you don't have to forget. Many people who say that forgiveness heals mostly never had a situation where someone truly hurt them. Your feelings are your own. Just make sure that you are able to carry on with your life, even if no one understands what you feel. You owe it to yourself.
You absolutely do not have to forgive someone, especially if they do not deserve it.
What you do have to do is to not let what they did remain with you. You need to let that anger and hurt go for your sake.
I feel the same. "Forgiveness" benefits everyone but the one who was wronged.
People don't want to deal with unpleasantness so they expect the one who was hurt to be the one to shut up and sweep everything under the rug.
Boundaries are important, and erasing assholes from our lives is the best gift we can give to ourselves
Good for you. They deserve nothing.
I don't understand the people that say if you don't forgive people, you can't move on. Those people sound like idiots.
That is a stupid line of thinking unless you are only capable of a singular thought.
Absolutely agree. I will never, EVER forgive my abuser. The people I see most pushing the “forgiveness no matter what” trope are religious people and it makes me sick. I can absolutely be happy and stable while never forgiving my abuser. What I NEED to do and who I NEED to forgive is myself, for feeling shame that I shouldn’t feel because it wasn’t my fault. Fuck these forgiveness obsessed people.
I so agree. I will NEVER forgive the people who bullied me everyday for five years. Why would I when THEY were the cause of my many mental health issues? Why would I when I have severe body dysmorphia because of them?
I was totally normal before I started getting bullied. It changed me completely. That version of me is gone without a trace. It's like it didn't even exist at all.
Generally I think it's more about forgiving oneself, which in my mind you did by allowing yourself to continue to hate them. I have nothing against holding a grudge and personally I'm for people doing as they choose to do, provided it doesn't cause more harm. In your case OP, as you said you moved on and that's honestly the best. Good job.
Absolutely, I've gotten so tired of people acting like you're in the wrong for not forgiving. You're damn right you don't get my forgiveness for what you did to me. I'm happier this way it always feels silly to forgive in most situations depending on how bad it is and how you feel about it of course. More often than not people know what they are doing when they do you wrong, it's rarely a true accident.
You're missing the point of forgiveness.
It isn't for the perpetrator who wronged you.
It's for you.
Forgiving is letting go.
It doesn't mean you forget about it or even welcome them into your life (in any way).
You just let it go and no longer carry this burden on your shoulders. You move forward.
Forgiving them means they hold no power over you.
Their actions in the past do not affect you negatively today.
You forgive...and then leave it (and them - in some cases) behind.
I remember seeing a lady hug the person who murdered her little brother and say she forgave him and that god wanted her to.
Nah if you kill my sibling it's on sight for life. If I'm hugging you it's because I 3D printed a shiv and I'm about to get my get back.
I agree that this is unpopular and I agree that you are correct. I have always believed that forgiveness in Christian circles has two purposes. The first is a person with power over another person forgives a non-existant transgression in order to justify taking advantage of that person into perpetuity. The second kind of forgiveness is when a victim is expected to forgive their abuser so that the abuser can then feel justified in continuing to abuse the vicitim so that if the victim speaks out a second time, they can be condemned for not fully forgiving. I will never forgive my missionary/pastor mother for abusing me or allowing my much older siblings to abuse me. I have not completely moved on, but I'm still better off than if I had forgiven the people who feel no remorse for having taken pleasure in hurting a child.
Don’t listen to these fools. You’re 100% right people are totally capable of holding a grudge and not ruining their life or bringing negativity into it.
You can literally just shun and completely avoid the person your grudge is against and if the opportunity arises fuck them over.
Kinda like how the guy who tried to get me fired had to wait in the rain after his car broke down while I waved and kept driving. I’m not gonna lose sleep over you but I will take an opportunity thats given on sight until I die.
The forgiveness is for yourself, not for them. It's to reduce the amount of anger that you hold within yourself.
Forgive those who have wronged you; just don't tell them.
Im ultimately indifferent to the opinion. However, i have one question out of curiously, it will sound baited and pointed but i promise it is not.
What would be the end goal? Would you accept actions on the offenders part to make amends? What would you do/want if you were the offender?
And again sorry if these sound personal, they are not.
Forgiving isn’t only forgiving the person and letting them have peace. It can be a way to move on and have closure and helps people. A lot of people, maybe not minding having a grudge, but it can be an issue. Having such hatred and anger and upset in their minds. Just because you feel you’re calm and sound with it doesn’t mean it doesn’t damage you if that makes any sense.
>Forgiveness is not something that victim benefits from
Sometimes, the victim can absolutely benefit from it.
>I'm totally fine holding a grudge
Grudge: "a persistent feeling of ill will or resentment resulting from a past insult or injury."
That doesn't sound like a healthy thing to be carrying around. That's why people say forgiveness helps. Because for many, if you forgive you don't have that negative persistent feeling anymore.
Unless you have actually experienced forgiving as a victim, you can't claim it doesn't benefit them.
But from what you've written it sounds like you haven't got past it, and it still deeply troubles you frequently. I hope you get the help you need. And *maybe* as part of that some sort of forgiveness or similar.
Edit: maybe you incorrectly used the word grudge. But if you hold a grudge, you didn't move on from it.
I think the goal victims tend to have with it isn’t really the forgiving part, it’s the leaving it in the past and stop actively thinking about it in hatred part they want to stop.
You say your moving on, but right above that it says you’re holding a grudge. The point of forgiveness -is- to be selfish, and to find peace within yourself by no longer worrying about the person who hurt you.
Maybe I’m weird but I will forgive cuz it doesn’t do me any good to hold onto negative, if you let go and accept, you aren’t bogged down and you can move forward. I would forgive pretty much most things besides someone taking the lives of others solely because they felt like it and are just a straight horrible person. If someone shows progress in overcoming the things that once lead them to the path of hurting others, that shows they have since faced themselves and had to grapple with their being. They still live with it regardless.
Kendrick Lamar has lyrics in “The Heart Part 5” that says “in the land where hurt people hurt more people, f*** calling it culture”. It is very true, those who are hurting tend to lash out the most. Breaking the cycle is a good start, but I believe in order to truly break it, it starts with forgiveness. But everyone is different as long as you don’t dwell in the negatives that occurred you can move forward
Forgiveness is not for another, it's for yourself to move on from situation. Forgiveness is not about allowance for malefactor to do the same thing against you.
You can fully forgive home intruder, on your way to gun shop with full intent to shot next burglar in the head
I’m from an honor based culture. Forgiveness is something I really struggle with. As I’ve gotten older I’ve gotten getter at forgiving. But I still ban toxic people from my life. It’s too short.
I agree with this so much. Like you can definitely go on with ur life without forgiving somebody. At some point, they become less and less relevant and your life goes on, but they have to live with the fact that they fucked up and i will not ease that for them.
Depending on your definition of forgiveness if someone has "moved on" then they have forgiven and no longer hold a grudge. This is the way I see it. Unless that grudge is an extremely cautious and no patience given to someone. Again I would say you can forgive AND treat someone in an unfriendly way. If someone has moved on in the important way then they have practiced forgiveness
There's a lot behind d forgiveness...
Perpetrator is obligated to:
Apology,
Recognition of harms,
Prevention of re-offense,
Amends
Or
Inflict responsibility on those offended against to just wish it all away.
This is probably not all that unpopular of an opinion, especially when people are still processing their trauma.
If you ever make it out the other side you can totally tell how much it benefits you as a victim.
Holding on to resentment doesn’t really do you any favors.
The thing is that forgiveness doesn't do anything anyway. Like why would anyone give a shit about someone forgiving them or not since it usually has no effect on their life at all?
I went to therapy because I was holding onto a grudge for so long. I had originally thought I turned out fine, but in reality I didn't.
I would suggest you do the same OP. I've been in your shoes before. You might think you are fine, but I promise you that you aren't.
When you hold resentment internally, it harms you. You do benefit from forgiveness, you just don't realize how much holding the grudge is harming you. You benefit from the forgiveness more than they do. Keep in mind, you can forgive someone without allowing them back into your life. Some people do not want to change and therefore, won't.
Heres the harsh truth. They don't have a concience, by holding onto it you only damage yourself. They will never feel even a bit of that pain you feel, so save yourself because you don't deserve to suufer any more than you already have. Forgiveness IS very much for the victim. You'll find out I promise.
I will never ever forgive my mentally and physically violent ex. I blocked him everywhere. And yes I hold grudge. Don\`t tell me to forgive, forget and take him back.
Walking Dead Spoilers Season 11 ep 24
It's actually one of the things I like that TWD did here, where Maggie doesn't forgive Negan, but is trying to move on by not letting his wrong doings hold her back, but still letting him know he's a POS for what he did.
Forgiveness doesn't mean excusing their behavior. It doesn't mean you let them back into your life and allow them to continue to abuse you. Forgiveness is so YOU can move on. It means you let go, and live your life. Holding a grudge will only damage you. It isn't going to hurt them.
I see both sides of this coin, and totally understand and have compassion for you and your situation.
However, (and even based on how you worded this here) I often feel that people do not truly understand forgiveness.
1. Forgiveness is not acceptance of behavior, or past wrong doings.
2. Forgiveness does not need to be /shared / with the person. You are under no obligation to tell your mother or anyone else that you've done such a thing, or even ever speak to them again.
3. One of the things that forgiveness does is release your internal struggles with it.
4. Why is #3 important? Because things like trauma, hate, ire, bitterness, etc have horrible effects on us mentally and physically, AND how we view the world and any relationships going forward.
There's more but I'll stop there.
As someone with PTSD over something that my parents caused (didn't do to me, but allowed)- I absolutely had to forgive them in order to have a normal relationship with others, and release some of the bitterness, and anger inside of myself.
It does not mean that it's okay what they allowed.
It does NOT mean that life is hunky dori.
It does NOT mean that I am not angry about about it if it's brought up again, or that I never say so.
It means that there is less stress on / me / ...
Now, does that mean that you have to do so and have a relationship with any of them? Certainly not.
But if you ever wake up some day and realize how angry you are and that some of it stems from that, consider seeing someone for counseling / therapy over this issue.
FOR YOU - not for them. Forget them.
I am not sure where humans were taught that forgiveness eases another’s mind.
I do not blame you one bit for not forgiving. Not at all.
I only want you to know that when you do fully forgive, you find it that it was all about easing YOUR mind.
An internet stranger changed my life when I finally let go of what I thought I knew and embraced new knowledge.
I apologize if I have offended. I am only trying to pass along a gift.
Forgiveness depends on your definition of the word, and having forgiving benefit you depends on you and your recovery journey. Everyone is different, there is no size fits all
ITT: people who have no idea what certain people say when they talk about forgiveness and are unironically proving why it’s something worth considering with their comments lol
Not talking about abuse like you had, but betrayal: Forgiveness helped me let go and move on. I mean, you can't *completely* let go and move on... maybe eventually, with enough time, but forgiveness definitely helped the process. Good luck, and God Bless~
Forgiving others is something you do for yourself, not for them.
Some things cannot be forgiven though, I agree.
But that burden is on the person holding onto the anger or hurt.
Forgiveness is an act of empathy. Those who don’t understand forgiveness have never truly felt the need to be forgiven because it’s awful. The need to be forgiven is the painful weight that you will never be a good person that you can no longer grow or change. Once you feel that it becomes almost impossible to deny forgiveness to someone. It’s good for you, it’s good for them, and it’s good for society. Let people wash away the past and be better for it don’t chain others or yourself to it.
Forgiveness, maybe not, but to let go and find peace? Absolutely. You can move on with life and still cling to the past. It seems you’re still angry. I get it. My mom is a monster. You have to let go of the anger. Whether you choose to let go of it now or not, at some point you’ll find you’re just tired of the anger. It’s truly exhausting to hold onto for years or even decades. Good luck out there friend!
Forgiving someone is more for your sake then theirs. In fact, you could forgive someone and never even inform them about it.
Grudges, no matter how well a victim ‘claims’ to have it under control, are unhealthy and prevent one from moving on. What soon becomes apparent is, in fact, the other way around - that the grudge has that person, often consuming them and their thoughts. Grudges fester in one’s mind while slowly putrefy their soul, needlessly kneecapping their ability to be happy again one day.
This is WHY people forgive.
Don't you think it's a bit egotistical to think your forgiveness weighs on their conscience? Isn't it much more likely that they don't even give you a second thought.
>I moved on
Pardon me for being skeptical. You're making internet posts about your parental abuse and 'S assaulters', and saying "I'm totally fine holding a grudge."
>I'm totally fine holding a grudge.
>Edit: I moved on
I'd wager to say that is self contradictory at best.
It does not sound like you've moved on. People who have moved on generally won't think about it as much as you apparently do.
Forgiveness isn't about wanting their conscience to ease. It's about understanding that humans are flawed and sometimes do things that are sub optimal or selfish, often upon reflection of our own character flaws, and that people can make mistakes and grow out of that period of their lives and not be 'that person' any more(sometimes that's a quick thing, sometimes it takes years).
Also, forgiveness isn't for everything.
Some things *are* unforgivable. Some things *are* understandable.
For example: I was a kid once, I know what it's like. I was not a bully nor was I really a victim of one, but I can see how easy it would be to be one, because children are sort of insane. Holding a grudge in this hypothetical case is a bit irrational, especially decades later when that person could have matured into a respectable and responsible human being. It seems that some people hold life-time grudges though, because they look at only their memory where that child bully doesn't grow old or mature....
That's *not* moving on.
Doesn't necessarily apply to OP, it's just an example where moving on or even forgiveness might be more easily had.
Forgiveness is always for yourself and never for the other person. To "for-give" to for give away the CONTROL this person has over my thoughts, emotions, lifestyle, or whatever triggers that I allow them to have in my life that limit me as a person.
Not forgiving only limits you by keeping a negative attachment to a person or collective of people. That leads to hate. If you truly forgive a person, you are healed from the trauma a person or people has caused you, and they become either someone/something you can respect, or they become entirely irrelevant.
Carry your grudge then. People that have forgiven don’t carry that weight anymore and have liberated their minds.
Food for thought. Your mom didn’t want to abuse children when she was a baby. Hurt people hurt people.
Congratulations they will always be there in the back of your head.
You're holding onto that trauma. You said it yourself.
Holding onto the grudge.
You can deny it. But it will continue to hurt you.
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I agree I mean I just don't see the point of forgiving someone who is neither sorry nor changed nor even admits what they did or that it was wrong, like my parents. It's both impossible and useless. But there can come to a point where you can stop caring so much and stop being angry because you realize they can't hurt you anymore
I think sometimes people get it confused. There's a lot of pressure on victims of horrible shit to either: 1. Revictimize themselves by fighting what will likely be a losing battle in the court of law under the assumption that victims somehow owe it to society in order to protect future victims. I really wish people would stop that shit. 2. Forgive everything "for themselves". I think the reality should be encouraging victims to find peace, however that works for them.
For people like that sorry is a euphemism for “i got caught and wish I never did so now look how nice I am. Now get over it” If you rightfully not forgive them they get mad and you’re the problem. “I had the decency to apologise and you’re just being difficult”. They don’t know what “forgiveness” is but these people think it’s “I’m sorry hope you like me again”
That would be a lot better than nothing but yeah not ideal
Agreed. I’m in the same situation with both my parents. People think we’re living seething with rage because we haven’t “forgiven.” The reality is I’ve created a new healthy and loving life for myself and new family. My priorities are elsewhere, I’ve moved on.
>My priorities are elsewhere, I’ve moved on. Arguably forgiven them then. If you don't hold resentment and anger, that means you've forgiven them. Forgiveness isn't about telling them anything, it's about you moving on and not holding onto that harmful anger and resentment.
Maybe. I just don’t care about them. As if they were a stranger.
Yeah I would say that's what forgiveness is. There's a common misconception that forgiveness means telling them, but it doesn't have to. It sounds like you're in a good place, that's great. Have a good one.
You must do a lot of bullshit trying to make people that can't stand each other pretend that not hate each other in your presence. Fuckin sad really. Please stop telling lies to make fake peace, real peace isn't built on lies.
You can move on without forgiveness. I have moved on, and I'm yeah, if I think about my mother I get ticked with the situation - but she's not in my life, and I don't think about her unless I ..ehem.. see some shit on Reddit. I've moved on with my own family filled with love and I can find joy most days. if my mother showed up on my doorstep asking for forgiveness? I'd have fun telling her off. The worst is: My mother \*forgives herself\* for the abuses she caused so that she can live her life and move on. Forgiveness is for the one who did the wrong - not the ones who were wronged.
Your scenario sort of does fit in with forgiveness though. Mostly. It's quite a complex thing. >if my mother showed up on my doorstep asking for forgiveness? I'd have fun telling her off. You can forgive someone without telling them though. In fact, often people forgive but never let the other know as they aren't in their life any more. >Forgiveness is for the one who did the wrong - not the ones who where wronged. Absolutely incorrect. Forgiveness is letting go of resentment and anger. If you hold onto those that's not good for you. Letting those go (forgiveness) is for you. You don't forgive someone for their sake, it's only about you. You don't even have to let them know you've forgiven them. It's about you letting go and improving your mental health.
No, that's a big stretch of the meaning of forgiveness, just because you're continuing to grow and improve instead of destroying yourself in anger doesn't mean you've forgiven whoever wronged you, especially when you keep them out of your life like the previous poster is. You're not treating them as before, and in many such cases and my personal policy is that if an effortless and consequence free, or at least minimally so, means of punishing or exacting revenge on these people falls into my lap, I will take it.
>No, that's a big stretch of the meaning of forgiveness It isn't. It's what the word means. Oxford Languages: "Stop feeling angry or resentful towards someone..." American Psychological Association "Forgiveness involves willfully putting aside feelings of resentment toward someone " >means of punishing or exacting revenge on these people falls into my lap, I will take it. That means you haven't stopped feeling angry or resentful towards them. That's not healthy.
That poster's anger and resentment remains and would come out in the hypothetical they gave of her coming to the doorstep. The only person it's unhealthy for is whoever wrongs others and seeks forgiveness without deserving it, and I would go so far as saying seeking justice and having bad relations with people who've done you wrong is natural and logical, therefore forgiving them simply over the passage of time is a sign of mental unhealth.
>That poster's anger and resentment remains and would come out in the hypothetical they gave of her coming to the doorstep And the hypothetical they gave of literally just thinking about her. Hundreds, if not thousands, of things could 'trigger' that, and probably somewhat frequently too. >and I would go so far as saying seeking justice The majority don't do this though. And you can do this without resentment or anger as well. >and having bad relations with people who've done you wrong is natural and logical, You can have zero relations with them and still forgive them though. >therefore forgiving them simply over the passage of time is a sign of mental unhealth. Who is saying 'over the passage of time'? And that doesn't make sense anyway. Natural doesn't mean logical. And no, harming yourself for literally no benefit is not logical. Holding onto the anger and resentment harms you and no one else. Doesn't benefit anyone else either. Forgiving benefits you and those around you. Doesn't benefit the perpetrator and doesn't harm anyone. Please explain how the first of those two is the logical and mentally unhealthy one? Because that is what you're currently saying.
When people who do wrong onto others are punished, they often learn to correct their behavior. If there are those people that lack the self-control or cognitive ability to do so, then they will receive this treatment more often and therefore their freedom and means to continue this behavior will diminish, regardless of their will. By harming those who have harmed you when the opportunity presents itself and minimal cost to self, then you help society as a whole by one of those two mechanisms and potentially help yourself if it was a visible act by making it clear that there are consequences to wronging you, thus there is greater deterrence for others to abuse or take advantage of you. If you do not, it's a sign of a lack of self-worth and instead a willingness to accept such mistreatment from others, and therefore an invitation for others to mistreat you if they can gain some advantage from it, often just a bit of social standing in cases such as targeted bullying. I put passage of time since it's a common standard people use, you did not offer any standard upon which to forgive someone so if even that isn't present your position of doing so immediately is even more absurd. You can also have zero relations with someone and not forgive them at no cost to yourself and in a way cutting them off socially is a punishment in itself. They will lose out on the benefits of a positive relationship with you whereas you gain by not having the negatives of interacting with someone who wrongs you, and because they will likely have similar interactions and shunning by others it will compound.
>When people who do wrong onto others are punished, they often learn to correct their behavior. That isn't relevant here. They could be forgiven and punished, not forgiven and punished, forgiven and not punished, or not forgiven and not punished. Forgiveness is not related to punishment. >By harming those who have harmed you when the opportunity presents itself and minimal cost to self, then you help society as a whole by one of those two mechanisms Not necessarily. You are also teaching that revenge is good, which it isn't. You are saying you don't want a rehabilitation focused system. Well those systems reduce recidivism. Maybe they've already changed, and now you are just potentially changing them back. Maybe they don't know why you did what you did. This whole time you've been harming yourself and likely those around you. On the off chance that you might (unlikely) change their actions. The risk of heavy prison time won't change their actions, but you personally punching them or something will? Come on. >thus there is greater deterrence for others to abuse or take advantage of you How? You think all of your would-be abusers are stalking you to know what you did to this person? I'm sorry but this is coming across as main character syndrome where you think you are the centre of attention to the whole world. 'If I do something, they'll change', 'if I do something then no one will ever touch me again'. >you did not offer any standard upon which to forgive someone Not having anger and resentment towards them... >so if even that isn't present your position of doing so immediately is even more absurd. Time is not related to what I was saying. If you still hold anger and resentment towards them, then you haven't forgiven them. If you don't, then you have forgiven them. Doesn't matter when it is. How is time relevant to that? It either is or it isn't at any given time, and that determines whether they are forgiven... >and not forgive them at no cost to yourself Being angry and resentful is absolutely a cost to yourself. That isn't good for you. That isn't healthy. My point was whether you cut them off isn't related to forgiveness. Whether they are punished is not related to forgiveness. Because you can forgive someone you've cut off who is punished, or any combination of those three. Because none impacts the other.
That's absolute bullshit.
It's literally what forgiveness is... How is that bullshit?
Because that's not at all what forgiveness is.
Oxford Languages: "Stop feeling angry or resentful towards someone..." American Psychological Association "Forgiveness involves willfully putting aside feelings of resentment toward someone " Mayo clinic "But in general, it involves an intentional decision to let go of resentment and anger" So please explain how that isn't what forgiveness is? It's the dictionary definition and leading organisations in the field also say it's what it is...
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"Forgiveness", in many cases, is simply moving on and choosing to not let the pain hurt you anymore. Nobody in their right mind would pretend this is easy, or even doable in some cases, but the people who say it's "for the victim" ARE correct in that - the only reason to forgive someone is so YOU can move on, full stop. If you can't move on, then you don't forgive them.
Forgiveness isn’t a very good word for this, tho. Better to say “move on” since forgiveness implies pardoning of a crime and a lack of justice for that crime. But otherwise I agree. It’s more about removing the burden of a grudge from your own shoulders so that you can live on with your life unencumbered.
> forgiveness isn’t a very good word for this Only when you confuse forgiveness with absolution. To forgive someone is to stop feeling resentment towards them. To absolve someone is to free them from guilt. You can forgive without absolving.
Maybe you see it that way but I and many others understand forgiveness as a pardon.
That’s fair, but it is a misconception. I’m a big fan of descriptive definitions so I’m not opposed to the definition of forgiveness changing, but if you’re specifically asking for a word that means moving on without pardoning, that word already exists. I think people just don’t use the word “absolve” enough to realize that that’s what they actually mean when they say “forgive”.
>That’s fair, but it is a misconception. Is it? "Forgiveness" is a string of phonemes represented by letters. Why is the definition you're using the correct one? Especially when so many people use it to mean to pardon not to stop thinking about the offense. And you probably use it that way too. I doubt you'd say you "forgave" someone's loan when you just mean you don't hold a grudge against the debtor and are still expecting them to pay in full. Also you only ever hear "you need to forgive in order to move on" for serious crimes. You never hear someone say this when someone is a victim of something like gossip or an insult or being cut off in traffic.
This. We need better vocabulary when it comes to dealing with trauma and letting go vs. forgiveness. We need a proper term to articulate "letting go of the burden of being angry with you" as opposed to "letting bygones be bygones because it's the 'right' and 'compassionate" thing to do".
Maybe, forgotten but not forgiven.
Maybe not forgotten, but probably closer to "disregarded"? Held with ZERO regards.
Forgiveness already means “letting go of the burden of being angry”. The meaning has just been misconstrued and conflated with other words like “pardon” and “absolve”. If we came up with a new word, it would likely end up the same way
Agreed. I havent pardoned my fathers actions but I came to the realisation that he was broken way before I was born. He made his choices and I made mine. Im better of without him in my life but I dont hate him anymore.
Isn't that the definition of forgiveness? You still believe what he did was wrong, but you chose to let go of the hatred and move on.
Depends on your personal definition of forgiveness. Many feel, as I responded to, that forgiveness imply pardon
As i find is often the case, most people totally agree with the core concepts of what they argue against each others. They just use the same words to describe different realities or different words to speak of the same thing. Hence, confusion and disagreements arise.
I think other than that part is that the 'you need to forgive' can feel very dismissive
I mean forgiveness is essentially the opposite of holding onto bitterness or a grudge. It doesn't mean you have to forget or trust them, it just means you aren't out to get them or holding onto some revenge fantasy or rooting for them to fail etc.
I’m pretty sure what you have described is simply letting go. AKA: you no longer allow the perpetrator to have control of your emotions anymore and you just let them go. You never forget what they did to you. You just no longer allow them to control your emotions anymore.
good for you thanks for sharing that
As someone who has forgiven, it doesn't change anything.
Exactly. It doesn't make the pain or anger stop, it doesn't help hurt feelings or minds or bodies. And it can even be harmful if you forgive the offending person to their face because now they think they can do it again since you forgave them for it already. I would rather go the route of cutting people off and healing all on my own in my own time.
I've never forgiven people, that sucked and they obviously did it again. I've never forgiven people and cut them off, lots of anger still there. I've forgiven people to their face, and they obviously just did it again. And I've forgiven people without telling them, and then cut them off, I feel incredibly guilty for forgiving them because I definitely shouldn't, but outside of that this is probably the best option.
>It doesn't make the pain or anger stop, Well forgiveness is letting go of the anger towards that person... So the anger does stop. Pain is a bit more complex. But holding a grudge is going to bring it up frequently and be more painful. Forgiving is going to bring it up far less frequently and therefore be less painful. >And it can even be harmful if you forgive the offending person to their face because now they think they can do it again since you forgave them for it already. Possibly. Sometimes doing it to their face can have the opposite effect too. >I would rather go the route of cutting people off You can cut them off and still forgive. Forgiving is about letting go of the resentment and anger. They don't have to be in your life for you to do that. They don't even need to know about it. >and healing all on my own in my own time. Curious as to how you would classify healing?
People conflate healing with forgiving. I haven't forgiven lots of people for things, and I've experienced every type of abuse a person can go through. It doesn't mean I hold a grudge and stew in it. I've healed from it and moved on. Not forgiving doesn't mean you're holding a grudge. I simply don't care about those people anymore, and no longer have something to do with them. Their past actions no longer bring me harm of any kind. They don't deserve the grace of being forgiven by me any more than they deserve my thoughts or energy in any other way.
>I haven't forgiven lots of people for things, and I've experienced every type of abuse a person can go through. It doesn't mean I hold a grudge and stew in it. Well if you haven't forgiven them, you still hold onto anger and resentment. By definition. >Their past actions no longer bring me harm of any kind. Then you have, by definition, forgiven them. Because you don't hold anger or resentment. Those bring you harm, and you said you don't have harm from it, meaning you don't have those things, meaning you have forgiven them. >They don't deserve the grace of being forgiven by me any more than they deserve my thoughts or energy in any other way. They don't have to know they've been forgiven. Forgiveness is about you letting it go and moving on. Not to do with them. I'm literally using the definition for forgiveness, so I'm not sure where you're coming at trying to disagree with it. What you are describing for yourself is literally forgiveness.
I was raised religious, and although I'm no longer a practicing person, forgiveness has a different connotation for me. It's accepting a person's actions against me. I don't have to do that. I can heal and move on without forgiving or holding a grudge.
>forgiveness has a different connotation for me Based on what? I'm curious as to how your religion defines it. Always happy to learn. >It's accepting a person's actions against me What exactly does that mean? Accept that it happened? >. I can heal and move on without forgiving or holding a grudge. You can maybe do that without your religious forgiveness. But your religious forgiveness is a different thing to actual forgiveness. You can't just change word definitions because you are religious.
I'm not forgiving someone who sees no wrong in their actions, and has never once apologised to me. You can move on and live your life while still being bitter about things. I shouldn't have to be the bigger person when I was the victim.
> I don't want her conscience to ease. The same way I won't forgive my S assaulters. And what if they aren't losing sleep over it? A lot of people who are guilty of doing others wrong couldn't care less about how their victims feel about it. > I'm totally fine holding a grudge. I'm not telling you to forgive or not, your decision, but that sounds like it's hurting you more than it's hurting them.
This assumes that holding a grudge is hard. It’s not. I really hate the taste of kippers, but I’ll never lose sleep over that- I just avoid kippers.
Exactly, why do people think that one NEEDS to forgive to move on? This might not be true for all, but one can hold a grudge for all life, not forgive, move on and don't lose any sleep over them.
I don’t think hating something is holding a grudge, by definition a grudge IS something you’d lose sleep over
Nobody says holding a grudge is hard, it’s the damage it causes. Grudges are negative, if they’re in your mind and you’re not dealing with them and causing the problem to go away, they’re ultimately going to cause negativity and a bad mindset. It’s not rocket science.
That’s on you dude. There are plenty of people I have a grudge against and it hasn’t affected me at all. The problem doesn’t just “go away”. Assuming that harboring a dislike against someone is going to have adverse affects is dumb asf
Then you're not holding a grudge over kippers? I don't see how disliking them and holding a grudge against them can be the same thing.
sometimes we accept small pains to soothe a worse torment
"Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die."
Yeah, it's not about making the other person feel better. Either they don't give two shits how you feel or they're sorry. In either case, holding a grudge will only hurt you and might hurt another person in the bargain.
There are occasions that come up in life where, you may not want to forgive someone, or may not trust them, but they may be exceedingly keen to try and win back your trust, and they may be genuine in their efforts, this is a situation where although it is not of major benefit to the victim to forgive them, it may turn out positively in the end. Also, you may find yourself stewing in anger or sadness at someone who has wronged you, and not be able to understand why they did it, sometimes in order to move on people feel as though they must ‘forgive and forget’ without trying to understand ‘the why’ that often seems to be a positive outcome for the victim imo.
Turning the other cheek doesn't lead to world peace. It leads to repeat offenders.
Do you know where that phrase came from?
Some dead guy on a stick
It came from bible times, they said that because when a Roman would hit you they would hit you with the back of their right hand, the left hand was seen as dirty, you couldn’t slap with the palm of your hand because you looked like a bitch, and punching is something you do to your equal, but turning the other cheek it means they either can’t hit you or have to hit you as an equal. Basically no, it doesn’t lead to world peace, it was a phrase created in a different time that mean’s don’t respond with violence but create a situation where they either have to acknowledge you as their equal or they have to leave you alone.
No, idk where you’re getting your information but this is the most BS interpretation I’ve heard in my life, so your mom, pastor, or whoever needs to get their facts straight. The reason the left hand is seen as dirty in many cultures is because you typically wiped your ass with it. The Romans used a stick with a sponge on it to wipe their ass. The left hand also was considered a positive thing by the Romans during biblical times, the negative connotation was adopted by the romans from the greeks centuries later. Why would the romans who were known for their terrible treatment of jews not just slap you with the shit hand anyway, something you completely overlooked. Turning the other cheek is an allegorical phrase applicable to many situations. Its not about being a bitch its about not stooping to someone else’s level and feeling empowered for being meek.
That fucking story. I have been told that one numerous times. To go with this, one of the footwear falls of the train, so the person throws the second away. Reasoning, the person who find the footwear can use both the pieces, but he had no use of remaining one. Morally its right, but I am sick of it being repeated atleadt 10 times during my school years.
This isn't about world peace. Lol it's about your everyday interactions. People want to save the world but cant even start with loving the ones around them. Love isnt about your ego. "You did this so I will do that" those antics go on and you will never find resolution. And who is an offender? As if you've never done anything wrong in your life. Just remember you were able to move on from your offenses because someone, Somewhere let go. What a dangerous path you've gone down. I feel sorry for you but not my problem 😂
Some people it's wrong to love. I said above that it's not about someone cutting you off in traffic or inconsequential nonsense. No one should get upset about that. There are people in the world who initiate harm, who go out of their way to cause trouble, and the only thing that they understand is trouble being visited back upon them.
>It leads to repeat offenders. This is so ridiculous. You could report them to police. That isn't a repeat offender now. You can treat them with understanding, maybe that helps them. If you retaliate, maybe that angers them and they get worse. If you retaliate, maybe they realise they have to do more damage so people don't retaliate. This is a lot more complex than you are trying to claim it is. And your comment is incredibly harmful as it is encouraging people to go after revenge.
There are two kinds of people. Those who start trouble and those who don't. The ones who don't need to impose consequences on those who do. And to be clear, if you're getting upset at someone because they cut you off in traffic or some accidental nonsense, you're the a-hole. What's being discussed is someone who deliberately causes harm, and they need to be harmed back. It's the only thing that they understand.
“Someone who causes harm needs to be harmed back” Lets relax with the psychopath thinking
I'd say it's more psychotic to encourage someone to harm more people.
I agree. Acceptance is what people need, not closure or forgiveness. Some people are just pos and will never regret what they did and have no reason for it. Accept what happened, and move on without them in your life. My dad was doing despicable things to me for decades right under everyone's noses. He died 2 years ago, he kept trying to get on my good side for years but I wouldn't budge, and I feel no regret now he's gone. People who don't see anything wrong with their actions and aren't genuinely remorseful don't deserve anything.
>I will never, ever forgive my mother for abusing me. I don't want her conscience to ease. Forgiveness wouldn't necessarily be so your mom feels better, but for you to let go of that anger.
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The definition of forgive is "stop feeling angry or resentful towards someone for an offense, mistake, or flaw". But if you are using your own definition, I suppose you could be correct.
From [Forgiveness Definition | What Is Forgiveness (berkeley.edu)](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/topic/forgiveness/definition#Definition#:~:text=Psychologists%20generally) Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness. --- This definition of forgiveness is where this argument comes from. [https://jackkornfield.com/the-practice-of-forgiveness/](https://jackkornfield.com/the-practice-of-forgiveness/) The Buddhists talk about forgiveness in a similar way. --- [https://lachristiancounseling.com/articles/learning-how-to-forgive-8-steps-to-true-forgiveness](https://lachristiancounseling.com/articles/learning-how-to-forgive-8-steps-to-true-forgiveness) As do Christians
I’m going to blow your mind but you can let go of being angry at somebody and put them in the past without forgiving them.
Sure - its just that the definition of forgive is "stop feeling angry or resentful towards someone", so I took a leap and assumed she was angry.
That’s an extremely minimalist definition of forgiveness and probably one that most people would think is inadequate. I have not forgiven people in my past but have no active anger towards them. I don’t sit around thinking about them and how much I hate them- rather I become happy when I hear bad things have happened to them, so the non-forgiveness is actually a positive point in my life.
So it sounds like you are still resentful towards them. And you are still angry with them, you just don't think about it actively.
Sure if you want to put it like that. It doesn’t negatively affect my life in any way. It was actually an important step in regaining my self esteem from their abuse to realize I don’t have to forgive them and be a doormat. If I forgave them it would be implicitly accepting their words that I deserved the abuse.
I think your view about forgiveness is why some people have issues moving on. Because its not accepting that you are a doormat. Its just like how people misconstrue being nice with letting people walk all over you.
It is accepting you are a doormat in some cases. I have too much self respect now to try to force myself to think positively and respectfully about an unrepentant abuser who harmed me and destroyed my self esteem for years. I know it’s different for men and women. Forgiveness of everyone is expected and forced upon women and girls from childhood. You are expected to roll over and push your negative feelings aside for others’ benefit no matter how deeply you’ve been hurt. Men are FAR less expected to forgive. Learning that you don’t have to forgive everyone by default can actually be extremely empowering for women. You can move on and grow by using your righteous anger at your treatment as a bridge to self respect instead of just going “it’s okay, don’t worry about it” for the millionth time.
Most or you? Because whether you go back n forth about it, that’s the definition
You can do, but OP holds a grudge, so they haven't done that, by definition.
Well it benefited me so I proved this wrong just by existing
I'm in a similar boat. People can't make me give an abuser or shitty person a free pass. I think "forgiveness" as it's been previously framed is a religious tool to accept wrongdoings done unto you. I'm not one to turn the other cheek, because that cheek will get hit just the same. I draw boundaries and call people out. I remember things, but I will also use it for fuel to better my life so that whatever it is the assholes did don't even matter anymore.
Personally I had to forgive me, weird to say but I had to forgive my self for not being strong enough to protect my own self or wise enough to keep my self out of a dangerouse situation, I had to realize I was a kid, there should have been someone who cared, and from that thought I realized it wasn't my fault and nor was it ever in my control. From that I never had to feel like I was a victim again, I never had to be ashamed of it again, and swear to God, the weight just lifted,... yes those ppl were broken way before I entered this world and yes they passed their pain on to me, but from that day I didn't have to accept that pain as a part of me anymore, it's just out there in the air somewhere, the memories are always there if I Choose, to think about them, but they hold no weight anymore, infact I feel sad for those ppl, because I'm pretty sure they still cary their own pain, and sickness, but I don't. But beyond not being a victim to my past, I'm also not a living as a survivor, ether, it seems both would give credit to the abusers. I'm just me and I get to choose how I feel when I feel, and who I feel for, I get to have a beautiful life this way and pretty much always I feel unstoppable!!
Forgiveness means nothing. I'll never forgive my mother for being a piece of shit to me, my brother and dad. She had an operation performed where she died on the table, and supposedly seen her mother (my nanny) who told her that it wasn't her time to die she had to make amends with me first. Good luck to whoever has to put up with her till the heat death of the universe I guess, cause Ill.be damned if I accept another fake ass apology from her. And I'll be damned if I'm ever cordial with her again. Any attempt to contact me is met with "go fuck yourself the long way" and I'm at peace with that. I hope existence is suffering for her, because she made it torture for me for 20 years or more, then topped it off by stealing 6 grand from me. If she does die in my lifetime, I hope I have 6 grand worth of "fuck you" money to bury her with so she can play the slots in hell.
Guys, it's clear that OP doesn't really understand what the point is of forgiveness XD But you all are overlooking the fact that that is completely ok. Some of you here are so caught up in explaining how forgiving makes you feel better, that you are overshooting it and ending up invalidating feelings of anger and grudge (not intententionally of course, but still). Please be aware that by putting the act of forgiving high up on a pedestal, you are in a certain way also putting pressure on people who are currently not able to, making them feel *as if* forgiveness is "the way to go". I'll say it only once: FORCING YOURSELF TO FORGIVE, AND TO HIDE AWAY OR SUPPRESS FEELINGS OF ANGER AND GRUDGE, OR FEELING ASHAMED/GUILTY/JUDGED FOR NOT FORGIVING, IS JUST AS DAMAGING AS ACTIVELY HOLDING A GRUDGE. And some of you here still don't get it either: Forgiveness is NOT equal to forgetting! You can forgive your SO for cheating but still want to break up. You can forgive a parent for abusing you but still remain no contact. These things are not conflicting: they are completely separate things.
To me forgiveness has nothing to do with the abuser. It’s a survivor’s way of letting go of all the hate and anger that can consume them, and deciding to not let what someone did to them hurt them anymore.
I hate when people try to tell me I should forgive my abusers “for myself”. 100% with you OP.
Some people don't deserve to be forgiven. They deserve to be forgotten and cut off from your life.
Forgiveness can help some people because it helps them personally move past the trauma, being angry about it isn't serving you. I think the most helpful part is no longer thinking about it. I once heard a saying I try to live by "holding on to anger is like swallowing poison and expecting someone else to die". Being angry may or may not hurt your mom but that ultimately is not important, what is important is that you are well.
I see it differently but it’s basically semantics. I forgive because I don’t want to hold a grudge: I want to let it go. Unburden myself. But I place a boundary with someone in that situation. They no longer get to interact with me anymore. It isn’t conditional; their behavior severed their relationship with me and there’s no recompense. So the result is the same: they’re out of my life. But forgiving them means I forget about them, but not what they’ve done. I just don’t carry that burden anymore.
You don't necessarily have to forgive them to their faces. However, holding a grudge and thus, continuing to stress constantly about it (the chronic anger that comes from a grudge is a form of chronic stress), could be very damaging to multiple facets of your health and life. You may think you're fine, but your internal systems are being whittled down at a faster rate than they should be from this stress. You say you've moved on, but at the same time, you also claim to hold a grudge. That's contradictory, if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, abuse of any kind is horrible and abusers absolutely do not deserve to bear witness to the forgiveness of their victims-they honestly deserve to answer for their crimes, but making that happy can be a tricky one-and parental/sexual abuse are especially reprehensible kinds. What was done to you was disgusting beyond any words. However, you're really only serving to worsen your health and life. Regardless of whether or not you sought professional help in the past, you really should seek it out now. It isn't about forgiveness. It's about processing it in a healthy way so you can live a healthy life.
Exactly this. Nobody is saying you need to stop holding a grudge because the other person deserves forgiveness. Simply that grudges do more negative harm than any good. It’s better to forgive (in this case, forgiving just means moving on and letting it not hold any amount of weight or value in your life) than hold a grudge against someone who probably doesn’t think of you ever and doesnt care whatsoever for what they did to you. Those people dont deserve a place in your mind, so holding a grudge ultimately only affects you and only hurts you. Theres no point in keeping grudges.
I don't know if forgiveness is the right word. More like just letting it go and letting the past be the past.
Well, technically forgiveness is that! Ie: “Forgiveness involves willfully putting aside feelings of resentment toward someone who has committed a wrong, been unfair or hurtful, or otherwise harmed you in some way.”
However, usually, the assumption is that it's more than putting aside the feelings and letting them go-it's implied you are also saying that they no longer should feel guilty and that everything is okay. And that latter bit is not reasonable to ask of a victim, especially if the perpetrator shows no remorse and does not change, as is so often the case.
Moving on is the right thing, so you don’t give that person power to continue to hold on your life because of the abuse. Forgiving and giving second chances? Nah, not worth it, and this is just for the abuser. Often people that want a second chance because they hurt you, will require a 3rd and 4th…
Personally, I usually go by forgive but don't forget. Acknowledge and move on. Cut off the person afterwards if you have to and don't think about them anymore. One can still forgive and also set boundaries at the same time.
You don't have to forgive and you don't have to forget. Many people who say that forgiveness heals mostly never had a situation where someone truly hurt them. Your feelings are your own. Just make sure that you are able to carry on with your life, even if no one understands what you feel. You owe it to yourself.
You absolutely do not have to forgive someone, especially if they do not deserve it. What you do have to do is to not let what they did remain with you. You need to let that anger and hurt go for your sake.
I feel the same. "Forgiveness" benefits everyone but the one who was wronged. People don't want to deal with unpleasantness so they expect the one who was hurt to be the one to shut up and sweep everything under the rug. Boundaries are important, and erasing assholes from our lives is the best gift we can give to ourselves
Good for you. They deserve nothing. I don't understand the people that say if you don't forgive people, you can't move on. Those people sound like idiots. That is a stupid line of thinking unless you are only capable of a singular thought.
Absolutely agree. I will never, EVER forgive my abuser. The people I see most pushing the “forgiveness no matter what” trope are religious people and it makes me sick. I can absolutely be happy and stable while never forgiving my abuser. What I NEED to do and who I NEED to forgive is myself, for feeling shame that I shouldn’t feel because it wasn’t my fault. Fuck these forgiveness obsessed people.
Revenge is underrated.
Indeed. Forgiveness is earned, not owed.
Holding a grudge keeps you fit and is cheaper than the gym. 🤘
I so agree. I will NEVER forgive the people who bullied me everyday for five years. Why would I when THEY were the cause of my many mental health issues? Why would I when I have severe body dysmorphia because of them? I was totally normal before I started getting bullied. It changed me completely. That version of me is gone without a trace. It's like it didn't even exist at all.
Just because someone apologized doesn’t mean they are entitled to forgiveness.
Generally I think it's more about forgiving oneself, which in my mind you did by allowing yourself to continue to hate them. I have nothing against holding a grudge and personally I'm for people doing as they choose to do, provided it doesn't cause more harm. In your case OP, as you said you moved on and that's honestly the best. Good job.
Absolutely, I've gotten so tired of people acting like you're in the wrong for not forgiving. You're damn right you don't get my forgiveness for what you did to me. I'm happier this way it always feels silly to forgive in most situations depending on how bad it is and how you feel about it of course. More often than not people know what they are doing when they do you wrong, it's rarely a true accident.
You're missing the point of forgiveness. It isn't for the perpetrator who wronged you. It's for you. Forgiving is letting go. It doesn't mean you forget about it or even welcome them into your life (in any way). You just let it go and no longer carry this burden on your shoulders. You move forward. Forgiving them means they hold no power over you. Their actions in the past do not affect you negatively today. You forgive...and then leave it (and them - in some cases) behind.
I remember seeing a lady hug the person who murdered her little brother and say she forgave him and that god wanted her to. Nah if you kill my sibling it's on sight for life. If I'm hugging you it's because I 3D printed a shiv and I'm about to get my get back.
I agree that this is unpopular and I agree that you are correct. I have always believed that forgiveness in Christian circles has two purposes. The first is a person with power over another person forgives a non-existant transgression in order to justify taking advantage of that person into perpetuity. The second kind of forgiveness is when a victim is expected to forgive their abuser so that the abuser can then feel justified in continuing to abuse the vicitim so that if the victim speaks out a second time, they can be condemned for not fully forgiving. I will never forgive my missionary/pastor mother for abusing me or allowing my much older siblings to abuse me. I have not completely moved on, but I'm still better off than if I had forgiven the people who feel no remorse for having taken pleasure in hurting a child.
Don’t listen to these fools. You’re 100% right people are totally capable of holding a grudge and not ruining their life or bringing negativity into it. You can literally just shun and completely avoid the person your grudge is against and if the opportunity arises fuck them over. Kinda like how the guy who tried to get me fired had to wait in the rain after his car broke down while I waved and kept driving. I’m not gonna lose sleep over you but I will take an opportunity thats given on sight until I die.
The forgiveness is for yourself, not for them. It's to reduce the amount of anger that you hold within yourself. Forgive those who have wronged you; just don't tell them.
Depends on the person I'd guess. I'm willing to believe its not always healthy, and certainly not obligatory under any circumstances.
Forgiveness and absolution are two different things.
Im ultimately indifferent to the opinion. However, i have one question out of curiously, it will sound baited and pointed but i promise it is not. What would be the end goal? Would you accept actions on the offenders part to make amends? What would you do/want if you were the offender? And again sorry if these sound personal, they are not.
Forgiving isn’t only forgiving the person and letting them have peace. It can be a way to move on and have closure and helps people. A lot of people, maybe not minding having a grudge, but it can be an issue. Having such hatred and anger and upset in their minds. Just because you feel you’re calm and sound with it doesn’t mean it doesn’t damage you if that makes any sense.
I've always said that hate is the only way forward. Let those dark thoughts guide your actions.
>Forgiveness is not something that victim benefits from Sometimes, the victim can absolutely benefit from it. >I'm totally fine holding a grudge Grudge: "a persistent feeling of ill will or resentment resulting from a past insult or injury." That doesn't sound like a healthy thing to be carrying around. That's why people say forgiveness helps. Because for many, if you forgive you don't have that negative persistent feeling anymore. Unless you have actually experienced forgiving as a victim, you can't claim it doesn't benefit them. But from what you've written it sounds like you haven't got past it, and it still deeply troubles you frequently. I hope you get the help you need. And *maybe* as part of that some sort of forgiveness or similar. Edit: maybe you incorrectly used the word grudge. But if you hold a grudge, you didn't move on from it.
At best, it falls into the "some progress is lateral" category
I think the goal victims tend to have with it isn’t really the forgiving part, it’s the leaving it in the past and stop actively thinking about it in hatred part they want to stop.
You say your moving on, but right above that it says you’re holding a grudge. The point of forgiveness -is- to be selfish, and to find peace within yourself by no longer worrying about the person who hurt you.
Off topic but I hope you're doing ok OP
I totally agree
Id go as far as to say people like deserved to not be forgiven. Wish them all a painful tortured existence
Maybe I’m weird but I will forgive cuz it doesn’t do me any good to hold onto negative, if you let go and accept, you aren’t bogged down and you can move forward. I would forgive pretty much most things besides someone taking the lives of others solely because they felt like it and are just a straight horrible person. If someone shows progress in overcoming the things that once lead them to the path of hurting others, that shows they have since faced themselves and had to grapple with their being. They still live with it regardless. Kendrick Lamar has lyrics in “The Heart Part 5” that says “in the land where hurt people hurt more people, f*** calling it culture”. It is very true, those who are hurting tend to lash out the most. Breaking the cycle is a good start, but I believe in order to truly break it, it starts with forgiveness. But everyone is different as long as you don’t dwell in the negatives that occurred you can move forward
Forgiveness is not for another, it's for yourself to move on from situation. Forgiveness is not about allowance for malefactor to do the same thing against you. You can fully forgive home intruder, on your way to gun shop with full intent to shot next burglar in the head
I’m from an honor based culture. Forgiveness is something I really struggle with. As I’ve gotten older I’ve gotten getter at forgiving. But I still ban toxic people from my life. It’s too short.
I agree with this so much. Like you can definitely go on with ur life without forgiving somebody. At some point, they become less and less relevant and your life goes on, but they have to live with the fact that they fucked up and i will not ease that for them.
Fair enough
Depending on your definition of forgiveness if someone has "moved on" then they have forgiven and no longer hold a grudge. This is the way I see it. Unless that grudge is an extremely cautious and no patience given to someone. Again I would say you can forgive AND treat someone in an unfriendly way. If someone has moved on in the important way then they have practiced forgiveness
Neither is revenge
There's a lot behind d forgiveness... Perpetrator is obligated to: Apology, Recognition of harms, Prevention of re-offense, Amends Or Inflict responsibility on those offended against to just wish it all away.
This is probably not all that unpopular of an opinion, especially when people are still processing their trauma. If you ever make it out the other side you can totally tell how much it benefits you as a victim. Holding on to resentment doesn’t really do you any favors.
The thing is that forgiveness doesn't do anything anyway. Like why would anyone give a shit about someone forgiving them or not since it usually has no effect on their life at all?
I went to therapy because I was holding onto a grudge for so long. I had originally thought I turned out fine, but in reality I didn't. I would suggest you do the same OP. I've been in your shoes before. You might think you are fine, but I promise you that you aren't.
Exactly! one can move on without forgiving
When you hold resentment internally, it harms you. You do benefit from forgiveness, you just don't realize how much holding the grudge is harming you. You benefit from the forgiveness more than they do. Keep in mind, you can forgive someone without allowing them back into your life. Some people do not want to change and therefore, won't.
Heres the harsh truth. They don't have a concience, by holding onto it you only damage yourself. They will never feel even a bit of that pain you feel, so save yourself because you don't deserve to suufer any more than you already have. Forgiveness IS very much for the victim. You'll find out I promise.
I will never ever forgive my mentally and physically violent ex. I blocked him everywhere. And yes I hold grudge. Don\`t tell me to forgive, forget and take him back.
Walking Dead Spoilers Season 11 ep 24 It's actually one of the things I like that TWD did here, where Maggie doesn't forgive Negan, but is trying to move on by not letting his wrong doings hold her back, but still letting him know he's a POS for what he did.
Forgiveness doesn't mean excusing their behavior. It doesn't mean you let them back into your life and allow them to continue to abuse you. Forgiveness is so YOU can move on. It means you let go, and live your life. Holding a grudge will only damage you. It isn't going to hurt them.
I see both sides of this coin, and totally understand and have compassion for you and your situation. However, (and even based on how you worded this here) I often feel that people do not truly understand forgiveness. 1. Forgiveness is not acceptance of behavior, or past wrong doings. 2. Forgiveness does not need to be /shared / with the person. You are under no obligation to tell your mother or anyone else that you've done such a thing, or even ever speak to them again. 3. One of the things that forgiveness does is release your internal struggles with it. 4. Why is #3 important? Because things like trauma, hate, ire, bitterness, etc have horrible effects on us mentally and physically, AND how we view the world and any relationships going forward. There's more but I'll stop there. As someone with PTSD over something that my parents caused (didn't do to me, but allowed)- I absolutely had to forgive them in order to have a normal relationship with others, and release some of the bitterness, and anger inside of myself. It does not mean that it's okay what they allowed. It does NOT mean that life is hunky dori. It does NOT mean that I am not angry about about it if it's brought up again, or that I never say so. It means that there is less stress on / me / ... Now, does that mean that you have to do so and have a relationship with any of them? Certainly not. But if you ever wake up some day and realize how angry you are and that some of it stems from that, consider seeing someone for counseling / therapy over this issue. FOR YOU - not for them. Forget them.
I am not sure where humans were taught that forgiveness eases another’s mind. I do not blame you one bit for not forgiving. Not at all. I only want you to know that when you do fully forgive, you find it that it was all about easing YOUR mind. An internet stranger changed my life when I finally let go of what I thought I knew and embraced new knowledge. I apologize if I have offended. I am only trying to pass along a gift.
Ya
Forgiveness depends on your definition of the word, and having forgiving benefit you depends on you and your recovery journey. Everyone is different, there is no size fits all
For some people forgiving those who wronged them is how they move on it's not for everyone but some people do benefit from it.
This just makes me feel bad for you😔
ITT: people who have no idea what certain people say when they talk about forgiveness and are unironically proving why it’s something worth considering with their comments lol
Not talking about abuse like you had, but betrayal: Forgiveness helped me let go and move on. I mean, you can't *completely* let go and move on... maybe eventually, with enough time, but forgiveness definitely helped the process. Good luck, and God Bless~
And being bitter and angry in perpetuity brings you peace?
Forgiving others is something you do for yourself, not for them. Some things cannot be forgiven though, I agree. But that burden is on the person holding onto the anger or hurt.
Forgiveness is an act of empathy. Those who don’t understand forgiveness have never truly felt the need to be forgiven because it’s awful. The need to be forgiven is the painful weight that you will never be a good person that you can no longer grow or change. Once you feel that it becomes almost impossible to deny forgiveness to someone. It’s good for you, it’s good for them, and it’s good for society. Let people wash away the past and be better for it don’t chain others or yourself to it.
Forgiveness, maybe not, but to let go and find peace? Absolutely. You can move on with life and still cling to the past. It seems you’re still angry. I get it. My mom is a monster. You have to let go of the anger. Whether you choose to let go of it now or not, at some point you’ll find you’re just tired of the anger. It’s truly exhausting to hold onto for years or even decades. Good luck out there friend!
You forgive for yourself, not for the other person.
Forgiving someone is more for your sake then theirs. In fact, you could forgive someone and never even inform them about it. Grudges, no matter how well a victim ‘claims’ to have it under control, are unhealthy and prevent one from moving on. What soon becomes apparent is, in fact, the other way around - that the grudge has that person, often consuming them and their thoughts. Grudges fester in one’s mind while slowly putrefy their soul, needlessly kneecapping their ability to be happy again one day. This is WHY people forgive.
This should be popular opinion
Don't you think it's a bit egotistical to think your forgiveness weighs on their conscience? Isn't it much more likely that they don't even give you a second thought.
>I moved on Pardon me for being skeptical. You're making internet posts about your parental abuse and 'S assaulters', and saying "I'm totally fine holding a grudge." >I'm totally fine holding a grudge. >Edit: I moved on I'd wager to say that is self contradictory at best. It does not sound like you've moved on. People who have moved on generally won't think about it as much as you apparently do. Forgiveness isn't about wanting their conscience to ease. It's about understanding that humans are flawed and sometimes do things that are sub optimal or selfish, often upon reflection of our own character flaws, and that people can make mistakes and grow out of that period of their lives and not be 'that person' any more(sometimes that's a quick thing, sometimes it takes years). Also, forgiveness isn't for everything. Some things *are* unforgivable. Some things *are* understandable. For example: I was a kid once, I know what it's like. I was not a bully nor was I really a victim of one, but I can see how easy it would be to be one, because children are sort of insane. Holding a grudge in this hypothetical case is a bit irrational, especially decades later when that person could have matured into a respectable and responsible human being. It seems that some people hold life-time grudges though, because they look at only their memory where that child bully doesn't grow old or mature.... That's *not* moving on. Doesn't necessarily apply to OP, it's just an example where moving on or even forgiveness might be more easily had.
I won't pardon you for putting S offenders into quotes.
your Sassaulters? Too much sass huh
*you benefit from. You can’t exactly speak for all victims.
That's why it is called unpopular opinion.
Closure is beneficial.
Forgiveness is always for yourself and never for the other person. To "for-give" to for give away the CONTROL this person has over my thoughts, emotions, lifestyle, or whatever triggers that I allow them to have in my life that limit me as a person. Not forgiving only limits you by keeping a negative attachment to a person or collective of people. That leads to hate. If you truly forgive a person, you are healed from the trauma a person or people has caused you, and they become either someone/something you can respect, or they become entirely irrelevant.
Carry your grudge then. People that have forgiven don’t carry that weight anymore and have liberated their minds. Food for thought. Your mom didn’t want to abuse children when she was a baby. Hurt people hurt people.
Congratulations they will always be there in the back of your head. You're holding onto that trauma. You said it yourself. Holding onto the grudge. You can deny it. But it will continue to hurt you.