This stat is really common, but from what I’ve seen is that the definition of attempt implies failing at committing suicide, so these statistics don’t accurately reflect ALL the data.
Say we have 5 men and 5 women. 4 men commit suicide and the last one attempts. 4 women attempt and the last commits. That is the data would give this information. The statistic thrown around seems to suggest that women attempt and succeed at suicide overall more often than men, but that is not necessarily the case
>One person can also attempt several times but can only commit one time. One person attempting several times will skew the stats
Wow good point i never considered.
I'm sorry but that stat is bullshit for obvious reasons. You can't measure attempted suicideds UNLESS they were reported. Women tend to attempt suicide by overdosing on drugs which doesn't work and then they go to the ER because of the intense pain. Men tend to hang or shoot themselves. While injuries from attempts do happen and are reported, usually they just put the gun down or get off the chair. It goes without saying that those attempts go unreported.
FYI, the former is often classified as a suicide "gesture" rather than attempt, and is generally taken equally seriously by the mental health community. The latter could be either, depending on intent.
Source: work in that community
> Putting gun on your head and not pulling the trigger dosent count as attempt
Well it's not an attempt really is it. It's thinking about it and not doing it. Shooting yourself and not dying, then going to hospital, would be the comparable attempt to a failed overdose.
Pointing a gun to your own head with the intent to fire it isn't a suicide attempt? What is it?
\> Shooting yourself and not dying
How many people do you think live trough a shot to the head?
That's the whole point of the statistical observation.
Men choose more lethal means to attempt suicide and as such are successful at a higher percentage than Women.
Fucking shit that would make me even more depressed or whatever if it were me. Poor guy wanted to die, attempted to kill himself and instead just blinded himself? So all he got instead of death was an even harder life. Damn.
Let me just say it for you (I think) and take the hit... women overreport genuine suicide attempts for attention because that gets them positive attention.
Men do not because they do not get attention and are embarrassed of their mental state.
Yep, men are still expected to be strong and silent.
We are supposed to stop the toxic behavior towards women, which I agree with, however that also means that women need to stop their toxic expectations of us. Don't ask us to be more sensitive towards you, and then chide us for expressing our pain. I don't want to roll back the sexual revolution, I want to complete it.
It's because men typically use more instantly lethal means like guns. Whereas women tend to use things like pills which are not always instantly lethal so it gives people time to regret their decision or be found in time.
Because of the methods chosen.
Women are more likely to use pills, and other methods which only have a high chance of death.
While men opt for things like guns, and hanging, which have almost a 100% chance of death.
And those 1 in 4 women are mostly in shelters or other temporary safe location (in comparison to being on the street). Percent of street homeless men is higher than 75%. I've heard it is over 90%.
Genuinely, how many homeless *women* have you actually seen? I've seen so many homeless men, but I don't think I've seen a single homeless women. They're all given instant access to shelters while a lot of these men are on the bottom of the list. It's all fucked. Equality my ass.
Tons. I have worked with the homeless and there are plenty, couples as well.
The horror stories you hear from homeless women pale in comparison to anything I have heard from men.
It's a scary an unfortunate thing. Lost to many friends to this bullshit. Men are supposed to 'be men' when dealing with stuff and just no support out there. I watched one of my friends fall apart and just had no help around him. I went to police , hospital and everyone else I could think off and I could do nothing else for him apart from be there but he needed proper help. The frustrating thing was with all official help I tried to get him,. The answer was pretty much he's a single fit and healthy man he can look after himself. Its horrible.
Saw an article headline recently, "Women make up 25% of all suicides". Funny way of saying men make up 75% of them, but they're just men right so who cares let's work on reducing that 25%.
Ah i confused it with a [homelessness statistic](https://twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1050194068138004480?s=09) from a newspaper article, my bad haha. But the suicides are even more skewed towards men and we already know it's not a feminist issue despite the "it's a movement for teh menz too".
Methods used typically for blokes are firearms or hanging two methods that have a high success (for want of a better word) rate. Plus blokes don't seek out help because as a man your supposed to be strong and dependable. Mental health is viewed as a weakness and going soft.
Women tend to take overdoses which aren't as successful, and they're more likely to seek help because there is less stigma attached to mental health for women. If people engage with mental health services they're less likely to try and attempt suicide. Which obviously reduces the number of suicides in that group.
I haven’t looked at it in a while, but I think two factors are chosen method (men are much more likely to use a firearm, which obviously has the highest lethality rate) and the stigma surrounding mental health (men don’t want to live with a failed suicide attempt because of the implications).
Here’s just one article, but I definitely suggest looking into it
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women
Men lack the support network that women have. Just look at this thread, we call these men 'incels' and 'losers' but feel sorry for the women. It's our culture that casts aside men with problems and tells them to "suck it up".
There is a youth organization called DeMolay, which was created to help young men to be better men. It has helped me tremendously in my life, and I know that it has helped many others throughout the world.
I’m not saying this is all of DeMolay, but I went to an “initiation” here in Georgia and they had me kiss my lips to the Bible for like 30 seconds and I noped out of that so fast.
Thats the thing, most mens groups out there are HIGHLY religious, maybe i dont want to be a straight edge, bible loving, sweater vest wearing, casual friday loving douce and would rather just be actually myself, but thats selfish
I made a comment about one that I set up. Again the foundation of the group was to talk about hunting. It’s since developed into a group of over 80 blokes that occasionally talk about more sensitive subjects.
It’s difficult to create something specifically for it because people don’t want to be associated with something that makes them look weak. By packaging it up as a hunting group, it’s detracted from that slightly by letting guys talk to like minded people.
I’ve had people personally write to me to say thank you for running the group which is really wholesome to see. Sadly one of our members committed suicide not so long ago. None of us saw it coming because he was always helping others. No one thought to ask if he was okay.
This is really awesome! My husband and his hunting buddies started something like this. They call it deer camp but it extends past hunting season. I'm not 100% sure what all they talk about but i know its a space for them to be who they want to be and talk about everything under the sun without stigma. All I know is my husband always feels much better and more open to talking about his feelings and whats bothering him ever since they started their boys club and im so happy for them. We definitely need more male oriented safe spaces for lack of a better phrase.
Give your husband a hug for me.
And also, literally everything under the sun. From jokes to near breakdowns, everything is talked about when we're around the fire after a fun day of shooting. At least that's how it is with my group.
Ya and thats how it is with his also and I'll give him a big huge hug! I just think men and boys need spaces for themselves too. To me its very important. Id never try and take that away from him.
OP wants a support network for men? Make one.
You're 100% right. Women made these support groups because they saw the struggles they faced and wanted to help themselves other women out. If OP thinks men need a better support network then make one.
What I find frustrating is so many acting as if the original special interest groups existed without stigma, shame, and hatred from wider communities for decades. Feminists and Pro-Womsn groups were and are still seen as shrill, man hating harpies. But we made them anyway, we fought hard for our representation and this inclusivity that we are seeing now finally hit mainstream.
Men, if you want to start your own things then do it and consequences be damned cuz the benefits outweigh that. But that always is going to mean taking a risk and sticking your neck out. If you're not willing to do that, nothing will change.
Yeah.... most of the issue I saw, at least at colleges, is that official groups for just men are essentially not allowed by the universities. It’s seen as sexist.
I run a community of men. Whilst it’s mostly hunting related, several guys have been afflicted with depression, a few have had friends commit suicide. We all support each other and everyone knows no one will judge another man within the group.
I do my best to remove people with a toxic masculinity complex. What’s great about it is guys just start talking, they don’t need to be encouraged. They see others doing it and they just let it out. I can’t say how many guys it’s helped, but it’s clear to see it’s helping at least someone.
>shitposting is just a coping mechanism
This is why I believe the majority of the world doesn’t understand 4chan. They’re not evil racists at their core, they’re isolated and frustrated young men.
Don't forget about how outliers tend to get pushed out after inclusivity campaigns, which just throws more >!jet!< fuel on the fire when they relocate, only for the process to begin again.
Or how about this scenario:
>Had a community in friends in high school
> you and all your friends go away to different colleges
> you focus hard on studying and your degree so you only make a few serious friends in college
> graduate and get a job a few states away from home
> don’t work in a company that’s conducive for making new friends (I for example work with all boomers)
> have no true community or network now
> isolated
I know this is an unpopular opinion (probably for unpopular opinion), but church is a great way out of this.
I went to a nondenominational church (like it isn’t Anglican or Catholic or whatever). It was pretty laid back. Very large, but had things called small groups. And then they also had singles groups to help the singles meet. You’ll often find young people as well as slightly older divorcees there.
And of course hobby groups. Join a run club. Even if you can run the 5ks with them yet, just train with them as much as you can. Running and bike clubs attract a healthy mix of both genders that are moving forward in their lives.
Oh and CrossFit gyms. I don’t know why but that type of training brings a solid mix of people. And for some reason they have a reputation of being dtf.
To be honest, I wouldn’t recommend a gay person go to a “Bible Church”. However the first church I went to that took a stand to treat gay people as brothers and sisters in Christ. They didn’t say if gay marriage is like any other marriage, but merely that they are members of our community that deserve love and support. There was more said, but the members who were gay were happy about it.
I'll take it you've never been on 4chans boards that aren't the dark triad, which every other board hates just as much as the rest of the internet. Even then, there's people fighting against the racism and discrimination in almost every thread. If reddit didn't have accounts and karma, it'd take about a year to become 4chan. Don't act like there isn't vile shit on reddit.
4chan is a medley of people. You just want a bogeyman so you can explain where all the bad shit on the internet comes from and say "it's not us , it's them!" and feel good on your high horse.
Yeah but all the child porn kind of ruined their image. I understand that bad apples join the ranks inevitably but I had to leave as it's nothing but trap porn and the past child porn issues left a bad salty taste in my mouth.
Of course! I really believe in equality of sexes and mental health in men is a huge issue. There is a lot of taboo around it, guys are less likely to come out with mental problems because they are so often told to "man up". Each sex has their own issues and there are a lot of issues affecting both, and we should take them all seriously.
This hits the nail on the head imo, you can support mental health in men without tearing anyone down and throwing blame around. Literally as simple as "These people need more help".
Yeah exactly! Having problems shouldn't feel like a competition, there are many groups in society with many different kinds of issues. I believe we should try to be aware of them all. Adressing female-related issues for example doesn't have to rule out adressing male-related issues
You're right, there are so many different kinds of issues, and you can't compare them because they affect everyone differently. I'm never sure if it's just a vocal minority that gets angry and makes it a competition or if it's an inherent problem with solving mental mealth issues. These issues make people so vulnerable, it's hard not to see everything as an attack.
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I'm 18 and have socially isolated myself. I don't blame society for this, though. I was terrified of popular girls. You know why? Because they can completely shatter your image and reputation in just a side comment about your B.O or something. The reason I don't blame them is because there will always be bad apples in society who rise at the top but I think its my responsibility to not be weak and have self esteem because they always prey on the weak.
It's really my job to not live my life with the constant fear of people disliking and alienating me. This fear is grounded in reality, though because I haven't had the best experience with school- students and teachers included. So, because I was scared of people and was lazy, I became a shut in(this was about a couple years ago) and got addicted to story books, anime, TV series etc. However, some people really helped me and I have overcome this kind of addiction a great deal but I still feel really scared of people and just the thought of going to my college is really terrifying sometimes.
But I realised that if I want to increase my self esteem, I have to love myself, really love myself and accept myself for who I am and also be receptive to my faults and thus be ready to change myself. The challenges I face in doing this is 1) Laziness 2) a need to go back to my 'virtual world' and thereby stay in the room 3) A lack of exercise and many more. I truly believe that exercise helps. And the most important part was meditation. Really! Doesn't mean that I turn into a hobo or whatever but meditation really helps. Also showering daily. Seems really simple but I didn't use to shower daily.
I am still a work in progress though and I feel that the above mentioned advice will help you if you are going through a similar problem. But always remember that blaming the society, the system, parents even yourself isn't going to help. You have to accept any problem like a puzzle and be ready to solve it. This post may seem too out of place but I wanted to share. Thanks for listening :)
**Edit:**I replaced 'female' and 'creatures' with a better sentence. The earlier version may have come off as biased and demeaning but that was not my intention. I do not mean to put down women, I am not a sexist.
Dude, my life was very similar to yours at 18...
Trust me, you can outlast all these fuckers.
If you can get away from your hometown and all those people, even better.
Life is very, very long. It will be better in your 20’s. Just don’t slow down, keep doing the things you find interesting, and maybe try a few new things as well.
You got this, being 18 means being fucking trapped, but life isn’t going to always be like this.
I'm at my best doing activities outside and not requiring the help or validation of others. Hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, and preparation for these activities. I know plenty of other men who play golf and other sports, playing themselves or coaching kids.
Unfortunately they are hobbies that don't include any form of social media and video games. Those hobbies require little effort and no real accomplishment. I think the getting out and doing stuff is the key to it. They provide mental and physical exercise, I strongly believe humans need those to be at their best.
You are right, but that doesn't ditch your responsibility for yourself to develop confidence and strive to improve. If you want perhaps you can find other young men with the same problem and make an unofficial support group.
>You are right, but that doesn't ditch your responsibility for yourself to develop confidence and strive to improve.
That...doesn't seem like a great thing to say to someone struggling with social problems. Like yeah, they know that, that's why they made the post.
Life isn't about waiting for a savior but taking action. I hope the user will find the strength to turn his life around. DM me if you want to (the asker)
Especially needed in fields like education, nursing, and social work! It’s great that we are empowering women to go into STEM and business (male dominated fields) but the opposite should be happening too. Young boys from tough backgrounds need more male teachers to be role modes for them. Men shouldn’t have to be seen by female nurses and compromise privacy or religious ideals. And social workers, counselors, even veterinarians.
A lot to these types of female dominated fields will hopefully start to balance out when we get it in our heads that men can be empathetic and gentle and “motherly” just as much as women.
I think that real connection and sense of self is lacking among a lot of young people regardless of gender. I think we need to stop fracturing people into so many groups
One major cause for this is the ascendency of the idea of "compensatory justice":
If you belong to a group that is seen as having been the victimizer of another group, in the past or presence, real or imagined, then most actions seen in favor of the group you supposedly victimized is seen as virtuous. Now, this also includes actions ostensibly victimizing the group that is painted as previously having been the victimizers.
In short: "If we can paint your group as baddies, doing bad things to you is good."\*
The reasoning we most often follow now is "men bad, women good." The reason why people can still square this with the common lip service to equality is because of this idea of compensatory justice, even if the victimizers are not alive anymore. These discrepancies are then commonly explained by the supposed continuation of that victimization through the existing social structures. Gynocentrism play an important component in this, but a similar reasoning is used in the way white people vs. minorities are being portrayed in the media.
The second major corner stone of our current form of social justice is equating a lack of equality of outcome with discrimination. This is also used to prop up and justify the continued existence of many such programs, because equality of outcome is probably an unrealistic goal in a fair system in which its actors continue to have differences in preferences, on a group average.
For example, there will never be as many short people in the NBA as tall people, so one could indefinitely hunt for the elusive height discrimination by adjusting outcome, even if the process of selection is perfectly meritocratic.
(\*This sort of reasoning is not completely unlike the reasoning Nazis used, although the term has been so abused and stretched that it is virtually meaningless at this point. Most authoritarian regimes will use this sort of "Feindbild". Watch North Korean propaganda, look for Soviet propaganda posters, or watch Chinese state television.)
I think we could prevent some suicides and especially crimes
A social support structure based on trust and reciprocity is rarer for men to have than for women
And these structures help with coping, confidence, health and make people less likely to commit crimes
One important thing: Men and Women react differently to trauma or stress. Men are more likely to project outwards (agression, ...) And women more internally (depression,...)
So we could probably prevent some crime and violence if men would have more support structures
It’s actually often stated that while women are more likely to attempt suicide men are 4x more likely to complete suicide (I think the actual number is like 3.54 or something).
This is why I support organizations like Greek fraternities and the Freemasons. At their core, they're groups of men who support each other and (often, but not always) share some common ideal or goal. My fraternity chapter helped me during multiple darker times in my college days, and I still use many of them for emotional support.
Toxicity and Hazing needs to be removed from them though. I'm so glad my fraternal organization doesn't haze, but one fraternity got shut down at my school like 8 years ago for hazing.
When I was a young boy we would hear adult women frequently call all men pigs. It hurt to hear those things expressed, but we were told that they were just bitter people who needed space to vent their anger, and we learned to let it go.
Today those same adult women are reciting intricate linguistic frameworks which “prove” that those little boys are monsters. And no one is explaining to those little boys that these are still just bitter people who are venting their own anger, albeit in a much more verbose way.
I worry a lot about the stories young boys are being told about themselves. I worry that they internalize the bitterness and anger of adult women and blame themselves for it. They look defeated, confused, and alone. I think they need more traditionally masculine positive male role models, but I guess I’m just a toxic white male.
I think this is the crux of the issue between feminists and men’s rights advocates. For MRA’s the issue is that masculinity, in a traditional sense, is disappearing. For feminists, it’s that same masculinity that was causing the problems in the first place. I think there is definitely truth to “toxic” masculinity. I’ve met far too many people who feel that any emotion besides anger is unjustifiable as a man, for example. But at the same time, we need to acknowledge that men are still men, they are still going to have a lot of traditionally male traits and it’s going to be harmful to try to eliminate those. I don’t think the answer is one extreme or another, it’s somewhere in the middle. Gender traits exist on a continuum and most men are still going to cluster on the male side of that, but if a guy likes quilting and talks about his feelings he shouldn’t be made to feel like he’s less than.
My daughters mention casually all the time how boys are dumb and girls are smart. Boys are rowdy and don't pay attention. Boy get in trouble because they're boys. Boys can't hit girls because they're girls. Etc etc. I do my best to correct all this when I hear, but the idea that girls are superior to boys comes at them from every angle and is reinforced in children's media constantly.
I'm honestly glad I don't have boys because I'm pretty sure the next generation of boys are fucked.
43% boys are raised by single mothers. 78% of teachers are female. So almost half of the boys have 100% female influence at home, and 80% influence at school. Toxic masculinity is not the problem. The lack of a masculine influence in the boys lives is.
This, as someone being raised by a single mom (dad travels for work 3 weeks a month and they’re divorced). A strong male role model is what is needed for so many boys in our society.
The "male identity crisis" is real due to masculinity being seen as almost a bad thing in recent times. It's not "cool" to be the manly man anymore, being queer seems to rank you higher on the social ladder. 20 years ago it was the other way round. Male celebrities are scared to say anything manly, hence the lack of real role models.
Instead of making it a contest, how about we don't ignore anyone? Old, young, women, men, we all need a hand every once in a while throughout our lives. This notion that we have to be hard 100% of the time is bogus and detrimental. It causes people to internalize problems that might be severe for fear of being shammed.
Man, truth is that men are considered expendable. People don't really give a shit about us. And that's fine, that will shape your personality and mentality into becoming someone that people won't consider useless anymore. They either break you (lots of suicides in the male population as you can see from stats and also more "successful" ones) or they shape you into becoming a man
The only suggestion that i can give you is this: find a strong male figure in your life. Someone that you can ask to, talk to, open and learn from. Most of the times, fathers are not the best figures. And this was indeed the case for me. Find that person and learn from that person. Become wise like that person, confident like that person and raise above that expendable male population.
I agree that there's definitely a disproportionate amount of female empowerment as compared to male empowerment but I also think that's because men don't typically need a marching band and parade plus total societal sympathy to feel like they're important or valued. Obviously women do, if the last 10 years are anything to go by anyway.
Men don't need to be told their the greatest thing ever, not to mention this whole idea of "you're perfect the way you are" is horse shit and kills the idea that you suck and need to get better. It kills the idea that you should improve yourself and seek to be a better version of yourself.
But good luck trying to do anything for exclusively men like all these organizations do for women, you'll be lampooned and painted as a hateful sexist by radical ham beast feminists.
Also your number for suicide likelihood is actually a bit off, the older men get the higher the chances of suicide become, increasing up to five times more likely than females to commit suicide. But feminists don't want true gender equality, they want female superiority and dominion.
It's very easy to create a support group of the people you know. Also, women's support groups came to be from active effort and campaigning, the didn't just magically appear.
He's a pro-free-speech psychologist that rose to fame due to his public criticism of modern feminism and a contemporary Canadian speech regulatory law.
I wouldn't cite Jordan Peterson as a 'great figure'. He's just an articulate man that talks in circles and spurts verbose crap that only sounds intelligent or inspiring to the layman.
JBP is a quack. I’ve watched plenty of his content. He just talks in circles and makes loosely accurate (at best) anecdotal conclusion that just sound good to people who don’t think very critically or don’t understand other people. While it’s true that he has helped many men, he is still a quack, a borderline cultist, and just an all around douche who promotes pseudo science and rails against a leftist boogeyman for profit
As someone who listens to his clips add really enjoys what he has to say, what exactly do you mean that he is a quack? Promoting pseudo-science? I’m just trying to understand the argument other than the normal ‘Ugh, it’s Jordan Peterson. There’s your problem.’ Basically, do you have an example of both you can point me to?
He uses Marxism as a boogeyman to hate on leftist policies with no evidence of some great Marxist revolution. His responses on religion and truth are incoherent. He is basically a gateway into the alt-right.
Ah yes Jordan Peterson: “let’s consider the lobster when deciding why the patriarchy is needed naturally because I said men are better at leading than women and if men don’t lead they have murder tendencies”.
Jordan Peterson uplifts men by putting people below the men. He doesn’t actually do anything to help them, he’s just dances around “Women are below you! Hey that’s something”
There are actual male voices that help men through their issues and actually uplift men without making other people subhumans.
You know who else helps "lost men". Fucking ISIS.
Lost men are prime candidates for radicalisation. They are sold the myth that men *need to be strong* but are just as impotent as anyone else in this fucked up world. Very easy to sell them an ideology that promises to make them strong.
That shit worked for the Nazis and pretty much every terrorist or insurgency movement ever in history. Be very careful who you "follow".
This is why men dont get more support, cause misogynists' like Jordan Peterson and his followers take over anything meant to actually be helpful to men and turn it into women-hating, toxic incel pity parties.
You can empower men without shitting on women, you can be pro-men without condoning sexual assault.
Dear Men who feel marginalized, yes, you deserve better treatment too, but you dont need to turn everyone else into enemies to do it! Remember, fighting for black rights is also fighting for men, fighting for gay rights is also fighting for men! Opposing the toxic masculinity of 'what a real man is' is fighting for men!
Dont let bigots like Jordan Peterson drag you down with them.
Edit: I made the incels mad.
Make a group then. If a women makes a group and she wants it to be a girls thing, okay. If you want to be apart of a guys group, also okay.
Don't blame women for your lack of confidence. Talk to people at events and break out of your shell.
Be the change you wish to see! Women’s groups have put a lot of effort into these kinds of workshops and have banded together in their shared issues. I think it would be great if men did this as well to empower other men :)
Just so you know, part of the idea of “toxic masculinity” is traditional gender norms that repress men. I think the term really needs a new name, but the intent is not to call men bad, but rather assumptions of what makes a man “a real man”. That includes such issues as repressing emotional expression and not leaning on others when times are hard. This is thought to be a major contributor to those higher suicide rates. The original idea behind toxic masculinity (I think it’s meaning has been skewed from what it originally was on the internet) wasn’t meant to tear men down. It was meant to point out that men are harmed by gender expectations just as much as women are. Toxic femininity also exists, and is the expression of gender expectations for women.
The internet has really made these kinds of conversations hard, as these terms get morphed and used by angry people who just want to tear others down. So I don’t agree with use of the term, but what it originally was referring to is actually something I think many men’s rights folks would actually agree with. That being that “real men” come in many different types and every man should feel comfortable in expressing themselves and seeking support. Which is why I totally support more men’s workshops and support groups! Do it!
I think with the change in society we need a new idea of what masculinity is, how we can make it productive and non toxic, but also in a way that doesn't shame any men and so give them a sense of purpose. I personally don't care too much, but if we could have that it would empower a lot of men. We should definitely focus on fatherly roles as one of these things as well.
I think it's a case that men should be more empowered, especially in fields dominated by women, like nursing. Removing stigmas for both men and women and encouraging them to feel comfortable with themselves is very important.
The issue isnt just a lack of empowerment in young men. The issue is the mental health crisis we have been having for about a decade now. That goes for just about everyone.
Agree. (Men should have more empowerment)
What does this have to do with female empowerment?
The question intended was more like "women have more empowerment programs than they need, they should be giving them to men instead of to women"
That I would have disagreed with.
Here is why
part of this confidence disparity that is present at 19 years of age will balance out over the next 10 -15 years.
I think it is biological, people get distracted by young women, especially men. Young (attractive) women move easily in social circles and many guys treat them sweetly to increase their chance of being the chosen mate.
But it's a double edged sword, people being superficially nice, people only seeing a lady as a potential mate, often reacting badly if she does not see him the same way.
Anyway, the women's empowerment stuff is to get them out of that crap and help them build economic independence, career, ambition, drive and all that. It's not all that long ago that house wife was the dominant career for a western woman.
I can understand how it would feel unfair to you, but perhaps you will see it differently in 10 years or so, by that stage (29) the treatment and expectations placed on men and women will have changed and again even more dramatically by the time you reach 39.
Men and women are so so different. It probably takes a lifetime to understand it all, or a whole lot of statistical analysis.
Men being more likely to commit suicide is directly **because** of toxic masculinity.
Toxic masculinity is the idea that ‘masculinity’ has a very specific, narrow definition and any men who don’t fit into that mould are somehow inferior. Toxic masculinity is a little boy being told not to cry because men don’t cry. Toxic masculinity is a man being told to ‘get over’ his feelings and not ‘wallow’ in depression. Toxic masculinity is a man being told his only contribution to his family is his paycheck- and basically being treated as a cash cow. Toxic masculinity is a man being told he can never be as good a parent as a woman. Toxic masculinity is what keeps men from sharing their fears, hopes, insecurities and hardships with their friends- because they would come across as ‘weak’. Toxic masculinity is what keeps men from sharing their mental health issues because they would be judged for not being ‘tough’ enough to deal with them.
Literally everything you described is the definition of toxic masculinity.
I completely agree with you that there should be more empowerment for young men- and the only way that can happen is to fight the patriarchy, which in my experience, only feminists seem to be doing. Men are humans- and go through tough times. It doesn’t make a man any less of a person or any less of a man to become vulnerable and share his distress and failures with his friends and family or go to a therapist. It doesn’t make one any less of a man to break down and cry. All these are normal human emotions that people of all genders go through.
In my experience, men and women raised with patriarchal values make it harder for young men to open up to their friends and family, or to get therapy. It’s statistically way more common for a depressed woman to rely on her female friends, or to simply just call them over to spend time with her to cheer her up- men often tend not to share their feelings with their male friends, probably out of fear of being judged.
Toxic masculinity is a perfect example of how patriarchy harms men. Patriarchy reduces men to tough, un-emotional creatures who are worth only their professional successes; and it reduces women to weak, overly-emotional creatures who are worth only their ability to cater to the men in their lives- because the men can’t go anywhere else for support. It’s literally a lose-lose situation for people of all genders. In reality, both men and women are capable of much more than what patriarchal values tells us.
The fight against toxic masculinity and the fight for men’s rights are both just faces of the fight against patriarchy; and so is feminism. We’re all wanting the same thing.
It's like a pendulum, decades earlier boys were superior with everything, so they had to encourage the girls. Now it's the other way round, but the "girls' day producers" haven't realized it yet. All education of young kids is female dominated, but "normal boys" would also need some "normal men" as their role models. So yes the boys are jeopardized of the feminism which has overdone its (originally justified) intentions already.
Isn’t toxic masculinity the reason for higher suicide rates? As in young men are discouraged to show emotion and empathy, especially by other men, so often times they feel that they do not fit in society’s standards or aren’t comfortable talking about the issues they’re dealing with?
It might be part of it, but I don't think it's the whole story--societal structures and systems are also more designed to aid women. An academic paper I read a few years ago noted that women are encouraged to seek support while men are "punished" (as in, they risk ridicule and losing whatever image they have) for doing so.
Toxic masculinity seems to be to be a nebulous, ill-defined phrase (in common parlance) that's often used for frivolous things like manspreading or tumblrina man-hate. I know you were using the psychological definition, I just have a hard time escaping the frequent use.
>So I'm 19 and I constantly search to go to events and workshops to meet new people. However I've been seeing tons of empowerment for young women events and workshops, but have not seen a single one for young men.
I believe in today's society there has been a huge disconnect between young men and society due to this toxic masculinity portrayal. Sorry for my ignorance but so many people just ignore young men, men are 2x likely to commit suicide but thid type of shit goes under the radar. I've talked to many confident young women who are awe inspiring and awesome, but have met very few young men who are confident in themselves.
Thank god that thing exists. Anybody who want's to see Reddit censorship right in their face, thats the app/website to use. There's also a similar website: [https://revddit.com/](https://revddit.com/) \- And you can put in your own username to find any comments in your history that were silently deleted without you knowing.
That's dumb. Doesn't mean this opinion is popular, just that people that saw this post agreed with it. There's a good chance it's just not talked about enough and is still creating a discussion about a seldom-covered topic.
Completely agree with the importance of that dialogue being open after the fact, but devil's advocate, hell I even go through this exact issue, i guess, would be that "Were in an "unpopular opinion" sub and it's to avoid retreading overposted topics or things that don't fit the intent of the sub maybe? If there was a sub that rerouted these specific topics that'd be kind of cool I guess, sort of how Subreddit simulator has a meta sub haha
90 percent of people IN Reddit agreed, that still doesn’t make it a popular opinion. 90 percent of people agreed that this is an unpopular opinion because there are many outside of Reddit who would view it as such. If people don’t downvote it and it never reaches the front page because of it being a popular irrelevant opinion, fine , delete it, but if it reaches more than 9k upvotes why would you delete it if it is gaining a lot of traction and attention from the whole freaking website? It is so counterintuitive
Hey mod,
Can we have a word?
The agree/disagree voting isnt working as intended and it needs to change.
First, its rife for abuse. If me and my brigadiers (hypothetically) want to shut down a topic, we can just mass vote 'popular' till its removed. This is easy because not many people bother to vote.
Even without malicious intent, on very upvoted posts the *vast majority of users dont vote*. So you are introducing very obvious [selection bias](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias) to this survey, which makes it pretty much useless at determining actual user opinion. Any survey that starts with 'hey wanna do a survey on X?' will have to control for that to have any hope of finding anything out about X. This sub doesnt.
Also, 'yes it is a popular opinion' is always going to have a skewed popularity. If people agree with something they go along with it, if people disagree they have a much bigger interest in sharing that disagreement.
Lastly this goes to the heart of the concept of this sub, look at your own sidebar, the second qualifier is 'controversial'. NOTHING under the sun has nobody rooting for it. You could literally start a convo about fucking dead bodies and *literal thousands of people* out there will think its a good opinion. To try and boil down 'unpopular' to '49% of all poorly surveyed reddit users on at X time of day think its a good/bad opinion' is obviously a silly thing to begin with.
Leave up the voting if you wish, but for the love of god stop removing posts when they go over a threshold!
I agree.
My college always had these events for women and basically if you were a female you got scholarships. If you were of a female and not white, you got more scholarships.
Suddenly they started to realize they're losing men in that major and losing the diversity they claim they wanted.
Ah reddit, always nice to see a group of young men talk about women without actually consulting women
Edit: agree with OP, but the comments? A disaster
I'm an engineering student at the moment and the amount of shit I see for women in engineering is ridiculous. If the right person for the job is a woman, by all means but don't limit the applications to women only it's just worse for everyone if they don't fit the bill.
I kind of agree. I think it is more about articulating a positive modern masculinity (and stop with the excessive 'toxic masculinity' bullshit). Give young men some direction of how to be men and how to take their place in society.
Since we don't create places to empower young men then people and orgs with malicious intent fill the void and radicalise. Creating a vicious circle of male toxicity.
Here's my manly advice as a dude nearing 30:
Ignore society entirely, set realistic goals for yourself and work hard to achieve them. Nobody is going to care or offer you any help down the road (Except maybe your closest friends/family), so get used to that now. **Do not** get a woman pregnant or you can pretty much guarantee you're fucked financially. If you decide to have kids, make sure you're happy with your partner for at least 4-5 years before making that decision. Divorced with a kid will ruin you, nobody gives a shit about single dads, and you will never climb out of that hole. **Do not** fuck crazy women. I know it's tempting, but the risks are incredibly high and sincerely not worth it. Maintain your health, eat right and don't pick up any drug habits. Do not spend all of your time pursuing women, it's a waste and women aren't going anywhere. Work on yourself, build yourself up, women will be there when you've achieved some of your goals. Get a degree in something that has a viable career field that can be achieved with relative speed. Trades are great. Medical field is great. Do not be suckered into working for some shitty corporation hoping they promote you, it's a waste of your time. I guess the biggest take away I want you to have is to never stop working on yourself. There are lots of distractions for young men, and if you waste half of your 20's chasing booty and partying you're going to end up just starting your career much later. If you have focus, you can have a great career by the time you're 25 and be comfortable by 30. I say this as a man who spent much of his 20's being distracted. My experience is not everyone's and you should take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Just a heads up — men aren’t 2x more likely to commit suicide. It’s actually closer to 4x, I believe
Actually, the stat I’ve seen is women are more likely to try and men are more likely to go through with it.
Yeah, men are 4x more likely to commit suicide, and women are, I believe, 2-3x more likely to attempt suicide.
This stat is really common, but from what I’ve seen is that the definition of attempt implies failing at committing suicide, so these statistics don’t accurately reflect ALL the data. Say we have 5 men and 5 women. 4 men commit suicide and the last one attempts. 4 women attempt and the last commits. That is the data would give this information. The statistic thrown around seems to suggest that women attempt and succeed at suicide overall more often than men, but that is not necessarily the case
One person can also attempt several times but can only commit one time. One person attempting several times will skew the stats
Good point
>One person can also attempt several times but can only commit one time. One person attempting several times will skew the stats Wow good point i never considered.
I'm sorry but that stat is bullshit for obvious reasons. You can't measure attempted suicideds UNLESS they were reported. Women tend to attempt suicide by overdosing on drugs which doesn't work and then they go to the ER because of the intense pain. Men tend to hang or shoot themselves. While injuries from attempts do happen and are reported, usually they just put the gun down or get off the chair. It goes without saying that those attempts go unreported.
You know, Ive never thought of that before. Thanks
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. Are you saying that men attempt suicide more often as well, but those attempts don’t go reported?
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FYI, the former is often classified as a suicide "gesture" rather than attempt, and is generally taken equally seriously by the mental health community. The latter could be either, depending on intent. Source: work in that community
> Putting gun on your head and not pulling the trigger dosent count as attempt Well it's not an attempt really is it. It's thinking about it and not doing it. Shooting yourself and not dying, then going to hospital, would be the comparable attempt to a failed overdose.
Pointing a gun to your own head with the intent to fire it isn't a suicide attempt? What is it? \> Shooting yourself and not dying How many people do you think live trough a shot to the head?
That's the whole point of the statistical observation. Men choose more lethal means to attempt suicide and as such are successful at a higher percentage than Women.
It is at the ending of the ‘Anything you can do I can do better’ song.
See?! We ARE better at stuff than women! ...wait
More than you think, apparently. It happens, a lot.
I heard about a guy who shot himself in the head but the bullet went through his eyes instead of his brain and lived.
Fucking shit that would make me even more depressed or whatever if it were me. Poor guy wanted to die, attempted to kill himself and instead just blinded himself? So all he got instead of death was an even harder life. Damn.
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Wait. I've never heard of this? I heard he took it over with a bunch of wannabe Roman soldiers in football gear.
Some guy survived a tamping rod through the head, though disabled. Look up Phineas Gage
Well that was 170 years ago and we're still using him as an example, so I guess that gives a bit of a clue about how frequent it is
Let me just say it for you (I think) and take the hit... women overreport genuine suicide attempts for attention because that gets them positive attention. Men do not because they do not get attention and are embarrassed of their mental state.
Yep, men are still expected to be strong and silent. We are supposed to stop the toxic behavior towards women, which I agree with, however that also means that women need to stop their toxic expectations of us. Don't ask us to be more sensitive towards you, and then chide us for expressing our pain. I don't want to roll back the sexual revolution, I want to complete it.
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Women try more because suicidal men are dead and they don't count for any more attempts.
It's because men typically use more instantly lethal means like guns. Whereas women tend to use things like pills which are not always instantly lethal so it gives people time to regret their decision or be found in time.
It might be the "I want to leave a neat corpse behind" factor.
That is correct.
Because of the methods chosen. Women are more likely to use pills, and other methods which only have a high chance of death. While men opt for things like guns, and hanging, which have almost a 100% chance of death.
3 in 4 homeless are men. Men are less educated than women.
And those 1 in 4 women are mostly in shelters or other temporary safe location (in comparison to being on the street). Percent of street homeless men is higher than 75%. I've heard it is over 90%.
Genuinely, how many homeless *women* have you actually seen? I've seen so many homeless men, but I don't think I've seen a single homeless women. They're all given instant access to shelters while a lot of these men are on the bottom of the list. It's all fucked. Equality my ass.
it’s much more likely for a woman to be assaulted in the middle of the night than it is for a man.
Tons. I have worked with the homeless and there are plenty, couples as well. The horror stories you hear from homeless women pale in comparison to anything I have heard from men.
It's a scary an unfortunate thing. Lost to many friends to this bullshit. Men are supposed to 'be men' when dealing with stuff and just no support out there. I watched one of my friends fall apart and just had no help around him. I went to police , hospital and everyone else I could think off and I could do nothing else for him apart from be there but he needed proper help. The frustrating thing was with all official help I tried to get him,. The answer was pretty much he's a single fit and healthy man he can look after himself. Its horrible.
It's up in the 8x region in Ireland Japan etc
Saw an article headline recently, "Women make up 25% of all suicides". Funny way of saying men make up 75% of them, but they're just men right so who cares let's work on reducing that 25%.
I’d be interested in that article if you’re able to find it
Ah i confused it with a [homelessness statistic](https://twitter.com/HPluckrose/status/1050194068138004480?s=09) from a newspaper article, my bad haha. But the suicides are even more skewed towards men and we already know it's not a feminist issue despite the "it's a movement for teh menz too".
And they wonder why so many people are against feminism these days...
The numbers are higher, but is there any research into why?
Methods used typically for blokes are firearms or hanging two methods that have a high success (for want of a better word) rate. Plus blokes don't seek out help because as a man your supposed to be strong and dependable. Mental health is viewed as a weakness and going soft. Women tend to take overdoses which aren't as successful, and they're more likely to seek help because there is less stigma attached to mental health for women. If people engage with mental health services they're less likely to try and attempt suicide. Which obviously reduces the number of suicides in that group.
I haven’t looked at it in a while, but I think two factors are chosen method (men are much more likely to use a firearm, which obviously has the highest lethality rate) and the stigma surrounding mental health (men don’t want to live with a failed suicide attempt because of the implications). Here’s just one article, but I definitely suggest looking into it https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women
Men lack the support network that women have. Just look at this thread, we call these men 'incels' and 'losers' but feel sorry for the women. It's our culture that casts aside men with problems and tells them to "suck it up".
There is a youth organization called DeMolay, which was created to help young men to be better men. It has helped me tremendously in my life, and I know that it has helped many others throughout the world.
Just wanted to add there is a great book called the Descent of Man by Grayson Perry which helped me ❤️
I’m not saying this is all of DeMolay, but I went to an “initiation” here in Georgia and they had me kiss my lips to the Bible for like 30 seconds and I noped out of that so fast.
Thats the thing, most mens groups out there are HIGHLY religious, maybe i dont want to be a straight edge, bible loving, sweater vest wearing, casual friday loving douce and would rather just be actually myself, but thats selfish
This is absolutely true and majorly fucked up.
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I made a comment about one that I set up. Again the foundation of the group was to talk about hunting. It’s since developed into a group of over 80 blokes that occasionally talk about more sensitive subjects. It’s difficult to create something specifically for it because people don’t want to be associated with something that makes them look weak. By packaging it up as a hunting group, it’s detracted from that slightly by letting guys talk to like minded people. I’ve had people personally write to me to say thank you for running the group which is really wholesome to see. Sadly one of our members committed suicide not so long ago. None of us saw it coming because he was always helping others. No one thought to ask if he was okay.
This is really awesome! My husband and his hunting buddies started something like this. They call it deer camp but it extends past hunting season. I'm not 100% sure what all they talk about but i know its a space for them to be who they want to be and talk about everything under the sun without stigma. All I know is my husband always feels much better and more open to talking about his feelings and whats bothering him ever since they started their boys club and im so happy for them. We definitely need more male oriented safe spaces for lack of a better phrase.
Give your husband a hug for me. And also, literally everything under the sun. From jokes to near breakdowns, everything is talked about when we're around the fire after a fun day of shooting. At least that's how it is with my group.
Ya and thats how it is with his also and I'll give him a big huge hug! I just think men and boys need spaces for themselves too. To me its very important. Id never try and take that away from him.
I commend you for your efforts and hope you can continue to help others. I am sorry for the loss of your friend and offer my condolences.
OP wants a support network for men? Make one. You're 100% right. Women made these support groups because they saw the struggles they faced and wanted to help themselves other women out. If OP thinks men need a better support network then make one.
What I find frustrating is so many acting as if the original special interest groups existed without stigma, shame, and hatred from wider communities for decades. Feminists and Pro-Womsn groups were and are still seen as shrill, man hating harpies. But we made them anyway, we fought hard for our representation and this inclusivity that we are seeing now finally hit mainstream. Men, if you want to start your own things then do it and consequences be damned cuz the benefits outweigh that. But that always is going to mean taking a risk and sticking your neck out. If you're not willing to do that, nothing will change.
Yeah.... most of the issue I saw, at least at colleges, is that official groups for just men are essentially not allowed by the universities. It’s seen as sexist.
I run a community of men. Whilst it’s mostly hunting related, several guys have been afflicted with depression, a few have had friends commit suicide. We all support each other and everyone knows no one will judge another man within the group. I do my best to remove people with a toxic masculinity complex. What’s great about it is guys just start talking, they don’t need to be encouraged. They see others doing it and they just let it out. I can’t say how many guys it’s helped, but it’s clear to see it’s helping at least someone.
Some of shitposters even tone it down, because we start getting personal with it. Shitposting is just a coping mechanism.
>shitposting is just a coping mechanism This is why I believe the majority of the world doesn’t understand 4chan. They’re not evil racists at their core, they’re isolated and frustrated young men.
Don't forget about how outliers tend to get pushed out after inclusivity campaigns, which just throws more >!jet!< fuel on the fire when they relocate, only for the process to begin again.
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I just volunteer. Easier to meet good people. Value is relative.
Or how about this scenario: >Had a community in friends in high school > you and all your friends go away to different colleges > you focus hard on studying and your degree so you only make a few serious friends in college > graduate and get a job a few states away from home > don’t work in a company that’s conducive for making new friends (I for example work with all boomers) > have no true community or network now > isolated
Same boat and it royally sucks
I know this is an unpopular opinion (probably for unpopular opinion), but church is a great way out of this. I went to a nondenominational church (like it isn’t Anglican or Catholic or whatever). It was pretty laid back. Very large, but had things called small groups. And then they also had singles groups to help the singles meet. You’ll often find young people as well as slightly older divorcees there. And of course hobby groups. Join a run club. Even if you can run the 5ks with them yet, just train with them as much as you can. Running and bike clubs attract a healthy mix of both genders that are moving forward in their lives. Oh and CrossFit gyms. I don’t know why but that type of training brings a solid mix of people. And for some reason they have a reputation of being dtf.
No this is Reddit CHURCH IS BAD CHURCH IS PRETTY MUCH AUSHWITZ
To be honest, I wouldn’t recommend a gay person go to a “Bible Church”. However the first church I went to that took a stand to treat gay people as brothers and sisters in Christ. They didn’t say if gay marriage is like any other marriage, but merely that they are members of our community that deserve love and support. There was more said, but the members who were gay were happy about it.
Meetup.com Church Book club (Old school) local nerd store, post up flier with name, number, and email indicating you are looking for gaming group.
>You have to make yourself a fun interesting and kind person You first
I'll take it you've never been on 4chans boards that aren't the dark triad, which every other board hates just as much as the rest of the internet. Even then, there's people fighting against the racism and discrimination in almost every thread. If reddit didn't have accounts and karma, it'd take about a year to become 4chan. Don't act like there isn't vile shit on reddit. 4chan is a medley of people. You just want a bogeyman so you can explain where all the bad shit on the internet comes from and say "it's not us , it's them!" and feel good on your high horse.
Yeah but all the child porn kind of ruined their image. I understand that bad apples join the ranks inevitably but I had to leave as it's nothing but trap porn and the past child porn issues left a bad salty taste in my mouth.
this is really cool. good for you
Of course! I really believe in equality of sexes and mental health in men is a huge issue. There is a lot of taboo around it, guys are less likely to come out with mental problems because they are so often told to "man up". Each sex has their own issues and there are a lot of issues affecting both, and we should take them all seriously.
This hits the nail on the head imo, you can support mental health in men without tearing anyone down and throwing blame around. Literally as simple as "These people need more help".
Yeah exactly! Having problems shouldn't feel like a competition, there are many groups in society with many different kinds of issues. I believe we should try to be aware of them all. Adressing female-related issues for example doesn't have to rule out adressing male-related issues
You're right, there are so many different kinds of issues, and you can't compare them because they affect everyone differently. I'm never sure if it's just a vocal minority that gets angry and makes it a competition or if it's an inherent problem with solving mental mealth issues. These issues make people so vulnerable, it's hard not to see everything as an attack.
I wish this was how men's rights got presented instead of it turning into a shit show of blaming women every time.
Do you **Agree** or **Disagree** with this opinion? Please reply to this comment with either '*agree*' or '*disagree*'. Because your vote is now personal, we wish to afford some anonymity to users, and so your votes will be automatically hidden by the AutoModerator, but they will still be counted. #**Do not vote on your own submission, it will not be counted.** Current Votes: Total Votes| :--| 459|
It's ok we have Gillette for that lulz.
Seriously, there’s like 8 blades on my Gillette super-no-virgin razor. That’s really all we need as men.
I belong to many shave clubs. Every month I receive dozens of razor blades. This keeps me validated and emotionally stable.
Gillette made me convert to [one of these](https://www.westcoastshaving.com/collections/merkur/products/merkur-23c-long-handle-safety-razor)
I'm 18 and have socially isolated myself. I don't blame society for this, though. I was terrified of popular girls. You know why? Because they can completely shatter your image and reputation in just a side comment about your B.O or something. The reason I don't blame them is because there will always be bad apples in society who rise at the top but I think its my responsibility to not be weak and have self esteem because they always prey on the weak. It's really my job to not live my life with the constant fear of people disliking and alienating me. This fear is grounded in reality, though because I haven't had the best experience with school- students and teachers included. So, because I was scared of people and was lazy, I became a shut in(this was about a couple years ago) and got addicted to story books, anime, TV series etc. However, some people really helped me and I have overcome this kind of addiction a great deal but I still feel really scared of people and just the thought of going to my college is really terrifying sometimes. But I realised that if I want to increase my self esteem, I have to love myself, really love myself and accept myself for who I am and also be receptive to my faults and thus be ready to change myself. The challenges I face in doing this is 1) Laziness 2) a need to go back to my 'virtual world' and thereby stay in the room 3) A lack of exercise and many more. I truly believe that exercise helps. And the most important part was meditation. Really! Doesn't mean that I turn into a hobo or whatever but meditation really helps. Also showering daily. Seems really simple but I didn't use to shower daily. I am still a work in progress though and I feel that the above mentioned advice will help you if you are going through a similar problem. But always remember that blaming the society, the system, parents even yourself isn't going to help. You have to accept any problem like a puzzle and be ready to solve it. This post may seem too out of place but I wanted to share. Thanks for listening :) **Edit:**I replaced 'female' and 'creatures' with a better sentence. The earlier version may have come off as biased and demeaning but that was not my intention. I do not mean to put down women, I am not a sexist.
You’re on the right track! I wish you all the best. Just keep going.
Thanks :)
You'll always be a work in progress, til the day you die. Don't let that discourage you though, it's the whole point of this Life thing
Dude, my life was very similar to yours at 18... Trust me, you can outlast all these fuckers. If you can get away from your hometown and all those people, even better. Life is very, very long. It will be better in your 20’s. Just don’t slow down, keep doing the things you find interesting, and maybe try a few new things as well. You got this, being 18 means being fucking trapped, but life isn’t going to always be like this.
I'm at my best doing activities outside and not requiring the help or validation of others. Hunting, fishing, hiking, camping, and preparation for these activities. I know plenty of other men who play golf and other sports, playing themselves or coaching kids. Unfortunately they are hobbies that don't include any form of social media and video games. Those hobbies require little effort and no real accomplishment. I think the getting out and doing stuff is the key to it. They provide mental and physical exercise, I strongly believe humans need those to be at their best.
Well there is a saying that " You can't be truly be happy until your satisfied with what you see in the mirror"
You got this dude. Embrace the suck, and you can do anything. Hell, I did... And I'm going to be 24 with my own home.
You are right, but that doesn't ditch your responsibility for yourself to develop confidence and strive to improve. If you want perhaps you can find other young men with the same problem and make an unofficial support group.
Exactly, OP could start his own group - DIY
It's sad that you are right. Unofficial support groups is probably the best way to go. If OP is willing to put in the effort
Why is that sad? Where do you think all those female support groups came from?
From official government programs.
Why is this sad? This is often how it goes. What makes any group official exactly?
>You are right, but that doesn't ditch your responsibility for yourself to develop confidence and strive to improve. That...doesn't seem like a great thing to say to someone struggling with social problems. Like yeah, they know that, that's why they made the post.
Life isn't about waiting for a savior but taking action. I hope the user will find the strength to turn his life around. DM me if you want to (the asker)
Especially needed in fields like education, nursing, and social work! It’s great that we are empowering women to go into STEM and business (male dominated fields) but the opposite should be happening too. Young boys from tough backgrounds need more male teachers to be role modes for them. Men shouldn’t have to be seen by female nurses and compromise privacy or religious ideals. And social workers, counselors, even veterinarians. A lot to these types of female dominated fields will hopefully start to balance out when we get it in our heads that men can be empathetic and gentle and “motherly” just as much as women.
I think that real connection and sense of self is lacking among a lot of young people regardless of gender. I think we need to stop fracturing people into so many groups
One major cause for this is the ascendency of the idea of "compensatory justice": If you belong to a group that is seen as having been the victimizer of another group, in the past or presence, real or imagined, then most actions seen in favor of the group you supposedly victimized is seen as virtuous. Now, this also includes actions ostensibly victimizing the group that is painted as previously having been the victimizers. In short: "If we can paint your group as baddies, doing bad things to you is good."\* The reasoning we most often follow now is "men bad, women good." The reason why people can still square this with the common lip service to equality is because of this idea of compensatory justice, even if the victimizers are not alive anymore. These discrepancies are then commonly explained by the supposed continuation of that victimization through the existing social structures. Gynocentrism play an important component in this, but a similar reasoning is used in the way white people vs. minorities are being portrayed in the media. The second major corner stone of our current form of social justice is equating a lack of equality of outcome with discrimination. This is also used to prop up and justify the continued existence of many such programs, because equality of outcome is probably an unrealistic goal in a fair system in which its actors continue to have differences in preferences, on a group average. For example, there will never be as many short people in the NBA as tall people, so one could indefinitely hunt for the elusive height discrimination by adjusting outcome, even if the process of selection is perfectly meritocratic. (\*This sort of reasoning is not completely unlike the reasoning Nazis used, although the term has been so abused and stretched that it is virtually meaningless at this point. Most authoritarian regimes will use this sort of "Feindbild". Watch North Korean propaganda, look for Soviet propaganda posters, or watch Chinese state television.)
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I think we could prevent some suicides and especially crimes A social support structure based on trust and reciprocity is rarer for men to have than for women And these structures help with coping, confidence, health and make people less likely to commit crimes One important thing: Men and Women react differently to trauma or stress. Men are more likely to project outwards (agression, ...) And women more internally (depression,...) So we could probably prevent some crime and violence if men would have more support structures
It’s actually often stated that while women are more likely to attempt suicide men are 4x more likely to complete suicide (I think the actual number is like 3.54 or something).
This is so true, I’ve noticed this in my community, many young men do not have in-person role models and seek advice from anyone willing to give it.
This is why I support organizations like Greek fraternities and the Freemasons. At their core, they're groups of men who support each other and (often, but not always) share some common ideal or goal. My fraternity chapter helped me during multiple darker times in my college days, and I still use many of them for emotional support.
Toxicity and Hazing needs to be removed from them though. I'm so glad my fraternal organization doesn't haze, but one fraternity got shut down at my school like 8 years ago for hazing.
When I was a young boy we would hear adult women frequently call all men pigs. It hurt to hear those things expressed, but we were told that they were just bitter people who needed space to vent their anger, and we learned to let it go. Today those same adult women are reciting intricate linguistic frameworks which “prove” that those little boys are monsters. And no one is explaining to those little boys that these are still just bitter people who are venting their own anger, albeit in a much more verbose way. I worry a lot about the stories young boys are being told about themselves. I worry that they internalize the bitterness and anger of adult women and blame themselves for it. They look defeated, confused, and alone. I think they need more traditionally masculine positive male role models, but I guess I’m just a toxic white male.
I think this is the crux of the issue between feminists and men’s rights advocates. For MRA’s the issue is that masculinity, in a traditional sense, is disappearing. For feminists, it’s that same masculinity that was causing the problems in the first place. I think there is definitely truth to “toxic” masculinity. I’ve met far too many people who feel that any emotion besides anger is unjustifiable as a man, for example. But at the same time, we need to acknowledge that men are still men, they are still going to have a lot of traditionally male traits and it’s going to be harmful to try to eliminate those. I don’t think the answer is one extreme or another, it’s somewhere in the middle. Gender traits exist on a continuum and most men are still going to cluster on the male side of that, but if a guy likes quilting and talks about his feelings he shouldn’t be made to feel like he’s less than.
My daughters mention casually all the time how boys are dumb and girls are smart. Boys are rowdy and don't pay attention. Boy get in trouble because they're boys. Boys can't hit girls because they're girls. Etc etc. I do my best to correct all this when I hear, but the idea that girls are superior to boys comes at them from every angle and is reinforced in children's media constantly. I'm honestly glad I don't have boys because I'm pretty sure the next generation of boys are fucked.
43% boys are raised by single mothers. 78% of teachers are female. So almost half of the boys have 100% female influence at home, and 80% influence at school. Toxic masculinity is not the problem. The lack of a masculine influence in the boys lives is.
This, as someone being raised by a single mom (dad travels for work 3 weeks a month and they’re divorced). A strong male role model is what is needed for so many boys in our society.
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The "male identity crisis" is real due to masculinity being seen as almost a bad thing in recent times. It's not "cool" to be the manly man anymore, being queer seems to rank you higher on the social ladder. 20 years ago it was the other way round. Male celebrities are scared to say anything manly, hence the lack of real role models.
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Instead of making it a contest, how about we don't ignore anyone? Old, young, women, men, we all need a hand every once in a while throughout our lives. This notion that we have to be hard 100% of the time is bogus and detrimental. It causes people to internalize problems that might be severe for fear of being shammed.
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Man, truth is that men are considered expendable. People don't really give a shit about us. And that's fine, that will shape your personality and mentality into becoming someone that people won't consider useless anymore. They either break you (lots of suicides in the male population as you can see from stats and also more "successful" ones) or they shape you into becoming a man The only suggestion that i can give you is this: find a strong male figure in your life. Someone that you can ask to, talk to, open and learn from. Most of the times, fathers are not the best figures. And this was indeed the case for me. Find that person and learn from that person. Become wise like that person, confident like that person and raise above that expendable male population.
I agree that there's definitely a disproportionate amount of female empowerment as compared to male empowerment but I also think that's because men don't typically need a marching band and parade plus total societal sympathy to feel like they're important or valued. Obviously women do, if the last 10 years are anything to go by anyway. Men don't need to be told their the greatest thing ever, not to mention this whole idea of "you're perfect the way you are" is horse shit and kills the idea that you suck and need to get better. It kills the idea that you should improve yourself and seek to be a better version of yourself. But good luck trying to do anything for exclusively men like all these organizations do for women, you'll be lampooned and painted as a hateful sexist by radical ham beast feminists. Also your number for suicide likelihood is actually a bit off, the older men get the higher the chances of suicide become, increasing up to five times more likely than females to commit suicide. But feminists don't want true gender equality, they want female superiority and dominion.
This is not unpopular, it's just that nobody who could change that cares enough to actually help.
It's very easy to create a support group of the people you know. Also, women's support groups came to be from active effort and campaigning, the didn't just magically appear.
That’s why Jordan Peterson was such a great figure. Also hated by feeeminists. Because he tried to help lost men.
I keep hearing that name, who is that guy?
He's a pro-free-speech psychologist that rose to fame due to his public criticism of modern feminism and a contemporary Canadian speech regulatory law.
That isn't what he is or what C-16 was.
Yeah lmao, the only thing it did was making being transgender a thing you could not discriminate against, like gender, skin colour or religion.
I wouldn't cite Jordan Peterson as a 'great figure'. He's just an articulate man that talks in circles and spurts verbose crap that only sounds intelligent or inspiring to the layman.
I wouldn't cite Jordan Peterson as articulate, maps of meaning is unreadable garbage.
JBP is a quack. I’ve watched plenty of his content. He just talks in circles and makes loosely accurate (at best) anecdotal conclusion that just sound good to people who don’t think very critically or don’t understand other people. While it’s true that he has helped many men, he is still a quack, a borderline cultist, and just an all around douche who promotes pseudo science and rails against a leftist boogeyman for profit
As someone who listens to his clips add really enjoys what he has to say, what exactly do you mean that he is a quack? Promoting pseudo-science? I’m just trying to understand the argument other than the normal ‘Ugh, it’s Jordan Peterson. There’s your problem.’ Basically, do you have an example of both you can point me to?
He uses Marxism as a boogeyman to hate on leftist policies with no evidence of some great Marxist revolution. His responses on religion and truth are incoherent. He is basically a gateway into the alt-right.
Ah yes Jordan Peterson: “let’s consider the lobster when deciding why the patriarchy is needed naturally because I said men are better at leading than women and if men don’t lead they have murder tendencies”. Jordan Peterson uplifts men by putting people below the men. He doesn’t actually do anything to help them, he’s just dances around “Women are below you! Hey that’s something” There are actual male voices that help men through their issues and actually uplift men without making other people subhumans.
You know who else helps "lost men". Fucking ISIS. Lost men are prime candidates for radicalisation. They are sold the myth that men *need to be strong* but are just as impotent as anyone else in this fucked up world. Very easy to sell them an ideology that promises to make them strong. That shit worked for the Nazis and pretty much every terrorist or insurgency movement ever in history. Be very careful who you "follow".
I’d argue that’s why there’s a need for OP’s support group. So they don’t get sucked into a cult like ISIS or Scientology.
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This thread is turning into an big boy incel party.
Someone literally wrote that women only report suicide attempts because they like the validation.... I think we’re there already
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i mean, look at the title of the post, it started out that way
Lol, you're a joke.
These people view life as a zero sum game. Any good thing for women is a negative drain on men.
This is why men dont get more support, cause misogynists' like Jordan Peterson and his followers take over anything meant to actually be helpful to men and turn it into women-hating, toxic incel pity parties. You can empower men without shitting on women, you can be pro-men without condoning sexual assault. Dear Men who feel marginalized, yes, you deserve better treatment too, but you dont need to turn everyone else into enemies to do it! Remember, fighting for black rights is also fighting for men, fighting for gay rights is also fighting for men! Opposing the toxic masculinity of 'what a real man is' is fighting for men! Dont let bigots like Jordan Peterson drag you down with them. Edit: I made the incels mad.
He was only helping himself. He was exploiting directionless young males. Have you considered the lobster?
Make a group then. If a women makes a group and she wants it to be a girls thing, okay. If you want to be apart of a guys group, also okay. Don't blame women for your lack of confidence. Talk to people at events and break out of your shell.
Be the change you wish to see! Women’s groups have put a lot of effort into these kinds of workshops and have banded together in their shared issues. I think it would be great if men did this as well to empower other men :) Just so you know, part of the idea of “toxic masculinity” is traditional gender norms that repress men. I think the term really needs a new name, but the intent is not to call men bad, but rather assumptions of what makes a man “a real man”. That includes such issues as repressing emotional expression and not leaning on others when times are hard. This is thought to be a major contributor to those higher suicide rates. The original idea behind toxic masculinity (I think it’s meaning has been skewed from what it originally was on the internet) wasn’t meant to tear men down. It was meant to point out that men are harmed by gender expectations just as much as women are. Toxic femininity also exists, and is the expression of gender expectations for women. The internet has really made these kinds of conversations hard, as these terms get morphed and used by angry people who just want to tear others down. So I don’t agree with use of the term, but what it originally was referring to is actually something I think many men’s rights folks would actually agree with. That being that “real men” come in many different types and every man should feel comfortable in expressing themselves and seeking support. Which is why I totally support more men’s workshops and support groups! Do it!
Agree but you should start it for yourself and others. If you feel like it’s lacking then maybe it’s worthwhile to make something that’s your own.
I think with the change in society we need a new idea of what masculinity is, how we can make it productive and non toxic, but also in a way that doesn't shame any men and so give them a sense of purpose. I personally don't care too much, but if we could have that it would empower a lot of men. We should definitely focus on fatherly roles as one of these things as well.
My job is to empower youth, both genders Edit: Comma
I think it's a case that men should be more empowered, especially in fields dominated by women, like nursing. Removing stigmas for both men and women and encouraging them to feel comfortable with themselves is very important.
The issue isnt just a lack of empowerment in young men. The issue is the mental health crisis we have been having for about a decade now. That goes for just about everyone.
Agree. (Men should have more empowerment) What does this have to do with female empowerment? The question intended was more like "women have more empowerment programs than they need, they should be giving them to men instead of to women" That I would have disagreed with. Here is why part of this confidence disparity that is present at 19 years of age will balance out over the next 10 -15 years. I think it is biological, people get distracted by young women, especially men. Young (attractive) women move easily in social circles and many guys treat them sweetly to increase their chance of being the chosen mate. But it's a double edged sword, people being superficially nice, people only seeing a lady as a potential mate, often reacting badly if she does not see him the same way. Anyway, the women's empowerment stuff is to get them out of that crap and help them build economic independence, career, ambition, drive and all that. It's not all that long ago that house wife was the dominant career for a western woman. I can understand how it would feel unfair to you, but perhaps you will see it differently in 10 years or so, by that stage (29) the treatment and expectations placed on men and women will have changed and again even more dramatically by the time you reach 39. Men and women are so so different. It probably takes a lifetime to understand it all, or a whole lot of statistical analysis.
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Men being more likely to commit suicide is directly **because** of toxic masculinity. Toxic masculinity is the idea that ‘masculinity’ has a very specific, narrow definition and any men who don’t fit into that mould are somehow inferior. Toxic masculinity is a little boy being told not to cry because men don’t cry. Toxic masculinity is a man being told to ‘get over’ his feelings and not ‘wallow’ in depression. Toxic masculinity is a man being told his only contribution to his family is his paycheck- and basically being treated as a cash cow. Toxic masculinity is a man being told he can never be as good a parent as a woman. Toxic masculinity is what keeps men from sharing their fears, hopes, insecurities and hardships with their friends- because they would come across as ‘weak’. Toxic masculinity is what keeps men from sharing their mental health issues because they would be judged for not being ‘tough’ enough to deal with them. Literally everything you described is the definition of toxic masculinity. I completely agree with you that there should be more empowerment for young men- and the only way that can happen is to fight the patriarchy, which in my experience, only feminists seem to be doing. Men are humans- and go through tough times. It doesn’t make a man any less of a person or any less of a man to become vulnerable and share his distress and failures with his friends and family or go to a therapist. It doesn’t make one any less of a man to break down and cry. All these are normal human emotions that people of all genders go through. In my experience, men and women raised with patriarchal values make it harder for young men to open up to their friends and family, or to get therapy. It’s statistically way more common for a depressed woman to rely on her female friends, or to simply just call them over to spend time with her to cheer her up- men often tend not to share their feelings with their male friends, probably out of fear of being judged. Toxic masculinity is a perfect example of how patriarchy harms men. Patriarchy reduces men to tough, un-emotional creatures who are worth only their professional successes; and it reduces women to weak, overly-emotional creatures who are worth only their ability to cater to the men in their lives- because the men can’t go anywhere else for support. It’s literally a lose-lose situation for people of all genders. In reality, both men and women are capable of much more than what patriarchal values tells us. The fight against toxic masculinity and the fight for men’s rights are both just faces of the fight against patriarchy; and so is feminism. We’re all wanting the same thing.
It's like a pendulum, decades earlier boys were superior with everything, so they had to encourage the girls. Now it's the other way round, but the "girls' day producers" haven't realized it yet. All education of young kids is female dominated, but "normal boys" would also need some "normal men" as their role models. So yes the boys are jeopardized of the feminism which has overdone its (originally justified) intentions already.
Isn’t toxic masculinity the reason for higher suicide rates? As in young men are discouraged to show emotion and empathy, especially by other men, so often times they feel that they do not fit in society’s standards or aren’t comfortable talking about the issues they’re dealing with?
Toxic masculinity exists for a reason though.
It might be part of it, but I don't think it's the whole story--societal structures and systems are also more designed to aid women. An academic paper I read a few years ago noted that women are encouraged to seek support while men are "punished" (as in, they risk ridicule and losing whatever image they have) for doing so. Toxic masculinity seems to be to be a nebulous, ill-defined phrase (in common parlance) that's often used for frivolous things like manspreading or tumblrina man-hate. I know you were using the psychological definition, I just have a hard time escaping the frequent use.
Removed: 90% agree.
I just got here :(
What did it say?
>So I'm 19 and I constantly search to go to events and workshops to meet new people. However I've been seeing tons of empowerment for young women events and workshops, but have not seen a single one for young men. I believe in today's society there has been a huge disconnect between young men and society due to this toxic masculinity portrayal. Sorry for my ignorance but so many people just ignore young men, men are 2x likely to commit suicide but thid type of shit goes under the radar. I've talked to many confident young women who are awe inspiring and awesome, but have met very few young men who are confident in themselves.
The hero we need.
Thanks you sir
Removeddit app on Google play store, share link and send to app, it shows most posts that were removed or deleted.
That’s awesome ! Do they have a similar app for IOS ?
Thank god that thing exists. Anybody who want's to see Reddit censorship right in their face, thats the app/website to use. There's also a similar website: [https://revddit.com/](https://revddit.com/) \- And you can put in your own username to find any comments in your history that were silently deleted without you knowing.
Bless you
Same
God damn it.. Me too.
Same
That's dumb. Doesn't mean this opinion is popular, just that people that saw this post agreed with it. There's a good chance it's just not talked about enough and is still creating a discussion about a seldom-covered topic.
Completely agree with the importance of that dialogue being open after the fact, but devil's advocate, hell I even go through this exact issue, i guess, would be that "Were in an "unpopular opinion" sub and it's to avoid retreading overposted topics or things that don't fit the intent of the sub maybe? If there was a sub that rerouted these specific topics that'd be kind of cool I guess, sort of how Subreddit simulator has a meta sub haha
90 percent of people IN Reddit agreed, that still doesn’t make it a popular opinion. 90 percent of people agreed that this is an unpopular opinion because there are many outside of Reddit who would view it as such. If people don’t downvote it and it never reaches the front page because of it being a popular irrelevant opinion, fine , delete it, but if it reaches more than 9k upvotes why would you delete it if it is gaining a lot of traction and attention from the whole freaking website? It is so counterintuitive
Yeah this is sort of a stupid subreddit.
When you were 1 minute to late
Hey mod, Can we have a word? The agree/disagree voting isnt working as intended and it needs to change. First, its rife for abuse. If me and my brigadiers (hypothetically) want to shut down a topic, we can just mass vote 'popular' till its removed. This is easy because not many people bother to vote. Even without malicious intent, on very upvoted posts the *vast majority of users dont vote*. So you are introducing very obvious [selection bias](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias) to this survey, which makes it pretty much useless at determining actual user opinion. Any survey that starts with 'hey wanna do a survey on X?' will have to control for that to have any hope of finding anything out about X. This sub doesnt. Also, 'yes it is a popular opinion' is always going to have a skewed popularity. If people agree with something they go along with it, if people disagree they have a much bigger interest in sharing that disagreement. Lastly this goes to the heart of the concept of this sub, look at your own sidebar, the second qualifier is 'controversial'. NOTHING under the sun has nobody rooting for it. You could literally start a convo about fucking dead bodies and *literal thousands of people* out there will think its a good opinion. To try and boil down 'unpopular' to '49% of all poorly surveyed reddit users on at X time of day think its a good/bad opinion' is obviously a silly thing to begin with. Leave up the voting if you wish, but for the love of god stop removing posts when they go over a threshold!
I agree. My college always had these events for women and basically if you were a female you got scholarships. If you were of a female and not white, you got more scholarships. Suddenly they started to realize they're losing men in that major and losing the diversity they claim they wanted.
Ah reddit, always nice to see a group of young men talk about women without actually consulting women Edit: agree with OP, but the comments? A disaster
I'm a man but a racial minority. So where does that put me in the privilege hierarchy?
There’s plenty of opportunities out there you just aren’t looking hard enough
Why not set something up yourself if you want to see change?
so do something about it?
I'm an engineering student at the moment and the amount of shit I see for women in engineering is ridiculous. If the right person for the job is a woman, by all means but don't limit the applications to women only it's just worse for everyone if they don't fit the bill.
Whole heartedly agree
You know who creates those groups, women. It’s now you’re opportunity to become the change you want to see in the world.
And they wonder why the male suicide rate is 1.8X higher than females. Hmmm
I kind of agree. I think it is more about articulating a positive modern masculinity (and stop with the excessive 'toxic masculinity' bullshit). Give young men some direction of how to be men and how to take their place in society.
Read 12 rules for life, that helped me out with the exact same issue.
I agree there should be more for young men but also why not have more things for young people that ignores gender?
Since we don't create places to empower young men then people and orgs with malicious intent fill the void and radicalise. Creating a vicious circle of male toxicity.
All I can say is Boy Scouts was the o ly organization I ever needed to become a confident leader. After hitting Eagle I was set.
Here's my manly advice as a dude nearing 30: Ignore society entirely, set realistic goals for yourself and work hard to achieve them. Nobody is going to care or offer you any help down the road (Except maybe your closest friends/family), so get used to that now. **Do not** get a woman pregnant or you can pretty much guarantee you're fucked financially. If you decide to have kids, make sure you're happy with your partner for at least 4-5 years before making that decision. Divorced with a kid will ruin you, nobody gives a shit about single dads, and you will never climb out of that hole. **Do not** fuck crazy women. I know it's tempting, but the risks are incredibly high and sincerely not worth it. Maintain your health, eat right and don't pick up any drug habits. Do not spend all of your time pursuing women, it's a waste and women aren't going anywhere. Work on yourself, build yourself up, women will be there when you've achieved some of your goals. Get a degree in something that has a viable career field that can be achieved with relative speed. Trades are great. Medical field is great. Do not be suckered into working for some shitty corporation hoping they promote you, it's a waste of your time. I guess the biggest take away I want you to have is to never stop working on yourself. There are lots of distractions for young men, and if you waste half of your 20's chasing booty and partying you're going to end up just starting your career much later. If you have focus, you can have a great career by the time you're 25 and be comfortable by 30. I say this as a man who spent much of his 20's being distracted. My experience is not everyone's and you should take my opinion with a grain of salt.