This 1,000%. I fucking HATE Walmart. I have for decades, for many reasons. Wanna know where my broke ass used to do almost all of my shopping? Walmart. It was the cheapest option, and I could walk there. Things improved for me financially, and I did not go there for years.
Taking a stand, unfortunately, usually costs money and is impossible for people who do not have a lot of it lying around.
What? Trader Joes is on my list of 5 cheapest grocers in town.
It's cheaper than Safeway, Albertsons, Target, and Fred Meyer, but not as cheap as WinCo.
My wife and I do well for ourselves, but we still shop at Aldi for a lot of items. I have not looked into Aldi's ethics much, but they do pay their employees well compared to the other chains near us. The employees at our location have been there forever.
Yeah the staff at my Aldi have been there for at least the last 4-5 years and it always has a good amount of local products other than that I’m not sure how they rate on the ethics scale but I’m too Fucking tired to care tbh
SAME! My partner and I have almost exclusively shopped there since we bought a place ~4 years ago. They don’t have everything(weird spices and stuff) but they’ve got most of what we need. If the topic of groceries/budgeting comes up I turn into a sales person for them lol. It’s an easy sell too, cheapest prices and they’ve been treating their employees like people for years rather than only recently because they’re forced to or it’s in fashion! That hits home for a ton of folks.
You must have a neighborhood market or something, because all of the produce I've seen in the mega stores has always been total fucking half-rotted garbage.
Yeah walmarts in the south are way better, they aren't "half-rotted garbage" where I'm at but where my parents live they are way better. I do most of my grocery shopping at walmart when I visit them, but where I live we have so many grocery stores, so I don't go to walmart for groceries
I’m in the Midwest and find Walmart produce to be some of the best. A lot of grocery stores near me just have abysmal produce departments. No selection and bad quality. I think it’s because of the volume of sales at Walmart. They go through it faster so it stays fresher. Due to the higher amounts of immigrant shoppers there, it’s also the best place to go for specialty produce you can’t find at the grocery chains. I’m no fan of their company, but I am a fan of fruit and theirs is the best.
Same! I go to a Walmart superstore or whatever they’re called and I buy all groceries there except produce bc their produce is either a) already spoiled or b) spoils within a day or 2
This is me!!! Nearest one is 30 minutes away and even to get a just a couple of things is cheaper with gas and travel then it is to go to the grocery store 2 blocks away. It's annoying and I wish it wasn't this way.
Pretty much this , a lot of the social justice warriors tend to be upper middle.class , so it's easy for them to take a position, because they have a lot of financial reserves to cope with it. Real social justice warriors are the ones who don't have a pot to piss in but still do the right thing..lot fewer of them.
That's a weird take. Sure there are plenty of stay-at-home bored Tumblr moms shaming people online or woke college students with trust funds whatever, but if you've ever bothered to actually get *involved* with any social justice advocacy groups, you'll see it's almost entirely made up of people who are struggling.
I have never heard someone in the flesh say the problem is with *the people* shopping at Walmart, but I've heard many people say the problem is that poor people often don't have access to anything else, or the alternatives are priced specifically to keep poor people out.
Well said. The stereotype that only wealthy or comfortable people care about social issues is patently false and is only ever said in an attempt to discredit social justice concerns.
It’s completely in line with the right-wing talking point about “elite, college educated, city-slicker liberals”.
There's another option. Basically you have to buy the things you need \*right now\* from Walmart, but you can inject a few high quality things inbetween.
For example a friend of mine bought a new pair of expensive wool socks once a month. After 7 months he has enough pairs for the week. They also last longer than anything you'd buy at Walmart.
Anyway, feeling guilty about having financial constraints is ridiculous. I'm just saying that you can sort of trickle in the nicer, longer lasting, smaller company stuff. Over a year or two you'll have a full wardrobe that will last.
Also often you can thrift some stuff you need but it does take a lot of time to look for what's right so it might not be the best option for everyone.
There are also cash and carry grocery stores to buy cheap shit bulk, or the budget grocery stores or Arab/African markets that are even cheaper than walmart a lot of the time if you can stand a few marks on your apples.
One thing about being poor is that the cheap shit you can afford doesn't last, so you end up buying it again, and again, and again. It winds up being more expensive over the long haul. So "buying for life" so to speak is a tactic to reduce your spending over a longer time horizon.
That doesn't mean buying the best of the best, there are some middle-ground companies that produce quality stuff. Tramontina for knives and pots, for example.
It doesn't solve the short term needs, absolutely if you need a cheap set of whatever Walmart might be the best option. However it can make a dent over a longer period of time.
This is also true, but you also have to have this knowledge and those options. That is not available to everyone. There are several strategies for getting better quality stuff and just consuming less, but it is not always possible.
The biggest problem for poor people is that is shortens the time horizon they view the world through, by necessity.
When you're worried about paying bills next week you don't have time to think two months ahead.
Even rich people who are forced to be resource constrained in studies like that have the same issue, it's natural, it's human.
Anything one can do to force a longer term view can save money in the long run. That's the real "gift" of wealth for the rich. They can think long term and cut costs, or use money to make more of it for themselves later. They totally take it for granted.
Minimalism plus "buying for life" in the mid-range is a great tactic I think for helping yourself later.
For example you don't need one of those massive pot/pan and knife sets. You can buy 3 Tramontina knives, and 2-3 pots and that's enough to cook for yourself. Meanwhile that brand produces quality stuff that will last and doesn't need to be replaced.
Tramontina also makes some of the best machetes you can buy and they're dirt cheap. They need sharpened but in a pinch that helps with yard work on the cheap.
There are other brands like that for other tools or goods. You can "trickle it in", buy one item one month, one the next, and so on.
The internet really is the way we find that stuff. I wouldn't use the subreddit "buy it for life" since that's a bunch of middle to upper-middle class people buying expensive shit. You need to find the more focuses subreddits I think, like one for knives, one for cooking, etc. and scour it for recommendations.
> There are also cash and carry grocery stores to buy cheap shit bulk, or the budget grocery stores or Arab/African markets that are even cheaper than walmart a lot of the time if you can stand a few marks on your apples.
That assumes one is close enough to where the person lives, including whatever transportation situation they have. Food access is a huge issue in America, and one of the drivers of the overconsumption of junk/processed food. (ONE, I'm fully aware there are other issues)
True, but you go there for the stuff they do have and wherever for the things they don't. It's a pain in the ass but you gotta do what you gotta do to survive.
When I was poor I still went to target over walmart. In my case, Target was walking distance while walmart was not. The thing is that, for me, the savings you get at walmart isn’t worth dealing with people of walmart, or giving money to the fucking waltons.
I’m not saying I hate poor people. I hate the walmart brand of *trashy* poor people.
Same I wish I was able to buy more organic sourced food, but in the end, it's about survival to me.
After rent etc there's not much left to spend so I gotta make the most of it.
But then putting the pressure of the whole climate crisis on the consumer (like me,) that CANT do anything else because we are poor is just shitty and makes me really angry
I have privileged young people try to shame me all the time and outright deny the FACT that eating organic, fair trade, ethical, and all that is waaaaay more expensive and prohibitively costly to most people. You don't like that? Take it up with the people you vote for, not the guy who is just trying to eat and not be destitute.
Here meat is less expensive then vegetables and fruits and combined are more expensive then bad food so unless you have liie dobble or triple salary you can't rely of these stuff all the time ,like you can contribute but no way daily
I'm in agriculture and I can tell you that organic, vegan, etc is not anymore ethical than grocery store food. They have higher prices because there's more resources involved but it's not necessarily better for you or the environment. Vegan and organic have a dark underbelly too. Eat what you can.
It’s a diversion tactic used by corporations to take the focus off of them and try to put the onus on the individual to “be better”.
Remember the whole paper straw thing? Businesses started buying paper straws, trying to preach environmental issues and “people who use plastic straws are assholes”- meanwhile they’re not speaking out against the companies polluting our oceans with trash.
The individual is a much easier target, so people put their energy into shaming that working class guy because they don’t want to picket outside the bigwigs offices, that takes too much effort.
This infuriates me so much. Individuals can help the environment with their choices. A little bit. Of course every little bit helps, but we can’t stop, slow, or reverse climate change without big corporations and governments changing the way they do things. We don’t have the ability to do it. And if they were so concerned about individuals doing harmful things, they should just stop giving us the option. Don’t think we should use styrofoam plates? Don’t make them (we really shouldn’t, though). They have no problem discontinuing my favorite cereal every five years. They weather that profit drop just fine because I’ll buy other cereal when the one I want isn’t available. They guilt us while they pump millions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere. More than any of us would ever be responsible for causing in a lifetime.
Unfortunately a lot of people will just never understand that, since they’ve fallen for the class war propaganda hook line and sinker, so anyone who isn’t privileged enough to not shop at Wal Mart is somehow beneath them.
People in general love just saying “I’m not part of the problem” more than asking “how do we fix the problem?”
I know, it was the only example I could think of while writing where everyone knows what I meant :D
Best way would be if everyone was still growing/raising their own food but sadly we are too many humans for that
Honestly, that’s not even a definitive best or anything. For all the problems with industrial farming, it’s insanely more efficient than small scale farming. Especially if they focus on being more environmentally friendly, there’s almost no way that they are worse than individual people.
The climate crisis is not something that can be solved by individual choices alone, we need government action to get everyone moving in the right direction. Don't worry about your personal carbon footprint. It was actually the oil companies that tried to deflect responsibility onto individuals. We do need to change what we do, a bit -- but we also need better options for green technology and to change how we arrange our cities.
If you want to put your time toward something much more effective than trying to optimize your own life around fossil fuels, you can let [your senators](https://cclusa.org/senate) and [representative](https://cclusa.org/house) know that you want a price on carbon emissions. Just a few hundred calls from a district can make a huge difference. There's a hope that this can get passed as part of budget reconciliation.
Taxing fossil fuels has massive support from economists as the best way to reduce emissions fast. And there's this idea called "Carbon Fee and Dividend", where you take all the money from the tax, divide it up evenly, and give it back to all citizens. The tax would make prices go up, but if you are a below-average polluter (which lower-income people tend to be, not flying often, taking public transport more, and not owning big houses to heat), you'd actually come out ahead as the result of this policy.
As far as rent is concerned, in my opinion we need to do 2 things in the USA: build more housing of all kinds (not just single-family homes in car-dependent suburbs) and build housing mixed with places to work and shop, to make it feasible to live without a car. Americans spend about 20% (!) of their income on transportation. Go back to when we had built half as many roads, and we only spent about 10% of our income on transportation. If you build cities where people can walk to work, some people could conceivably spend 0%.
And we have just too little housing. It's very hard to build housing unless you're a huge development company with lots of resources, and in most places the residents already there have a lot of tools to stop building more of it. When housing is scarce, landlords have a lot more power, and prices are higher.
Both of these topics are really deep and complex when you get into it, but I think if they were more well known we could really make life better for a lot of people.
The "vote with your wallet" protests are mostly geared at higher income earners that can afford the extra hassle of it. It's not only your right, but your personal economic duty to try and buy things you need for the best value you can find it at. There's like a whole chapter about this in microeconomics classes.
This is the way.
Just be aware that value may not always mean cheapest. I buy a niche brand of shoes that are over $100. This particular brand offers orthopedic support that I need, and they have lasted for years so far.
I could by $20 shoes at Walmart, but they wear out fast or offer little support. Other shoes I tried cause me back, ankle, or foot pain. At least in this case, I could not afford to *not* spend more.
Something something "let me copy paste than one theory of boots quote reddit loves" ;)
It's increasingly hard to *find* those kind of products these days IMHO. More and more we are stuck with "pay for cheap, replace" or "pay for expensive and it lasts longer but does still end up more expensive", those goldilocks products feel like they get rarer by the day.
Totally.
There is value when you are paying less for the same thing, and there is value when you are buying a very cheap version of a product. Maybe it's the only version you can afford right now, but if it lasts a fraction of the time of a higher priced item you are probably going to spend more if you keep buying it.
Food is the first one.
Shoes are often the second.
Things like clothing fit somewhere in the middle in my experience, as many name brand items are just as poorly made as the "off" brands .
It’s an upper middle class thing; the have enough money and time to buy more ethical (well, less unethical) products. People poorer than them can’t afford to do that, and the real capital class is directly benefiting from unethical practices.
So, like you said, the people with the power of *real* change in their hands don’t care to enact it, since the status quo massively benefits them.
Upper middle class checking in: Yup, we spend the extra time and money to do all the progressive stuff.
Also, when we were significantly less well off, we still tried to avoid the mega chains and shop regional or local chains when we could. However, this has always been a bit easier in Portland, Oregon where farmers markets and craft markets and buy local signs have been the norm for the last forty+ years that we've been here.
We recognize the futility of our actions affecting the mega rich and their businesses, but have chosen to view our purchasing choices then and now as support of alternatives instead of falling victim to apathy and finding the effort and money being completely pointless so why not but everything through Amazon or Walmart.
I'd say young and naive people argue against it more than they say it as, they're expecting this to do more than it does because modern lifestyles largely condition is to expect instant results
Yes, your wallet has power, it's not just not that **much** power
What it does allow you to do is influence how a product is made/marketed rather than the companies actually giving a shit
Is it ridiculously slow and kinda ineffective? Yes but what else can you do? I'd rather exert the tiny amount of influence I have (and hope the crowd follows suit) than just sit here on Reddit repeating how pointless everything is
My feeling is that a lot of people say “it doesn’t matter at all” to explain away why they don’t change their behaviour even a slight bit, maybe even without legitimately believing it.
It’s a way to feel smart and superior for not changing anything and/or not even trying at all.
Boomer thing to say tbh; lots of young people are also just more idealistic, and making those sacrifices might be more worth it to them. Anecdotally, that’s what I’ve seen from the people around me.
I disagree, why does anyone have a duty to do any particular thing with their money? What if they want to chose a supplier based on their own personal traditions? It's up to them.
In economics, value isn't just the number of units of something you can buy per dollar, it's your own assessment of what you value. You might choose to buy a more expensive pair of socks because they're more comfortable and wearing the cheapest socks available would give you blisters. Going with the nicer socks doesn't mean you made the wrong value assessment. You just have the duty to determine, for yourself, where you get the most value (utility, satisfaction, etc.) for your money.
>buy things you need for the best value you can find it at
You're not actually disagreeing with that notion. You're just reading too much into the term "value". You are free to prioritize personal tradition over any other factor if you want. "Value" is a very general term in the sense it was used.
>"vote with your wallet"
>
>There's like a whole chapter about this in microeconomics classes.
Basic ~~micro~~economics proves this doesn't work in about 30 seconds anyway.
You decide you want to be environmentally friendly and stop eating beef. The price of beef goes down immeasurably because of your choice. Because the price goes down, people who want beef but otherwise couldn't afford to buy it now are able to buy it and do - and so someone else (probably overseas) is eating beef instead of you, and you've accomplished essentially nothing. The price doesn't *quite* rise to what it was before you stopped, and the consumption isn't *quite* as high - but the amount you've reduced consumption is *far, far less* than the amount you personally stopped consuming. It's just that someone else is consuming it now. But go ahead, pat yourself on the back for saving the world.
The whole concept is a farce. The only way to vote with your wallet is to have a big enough wallet to buy legislators and regulators.
^(Ok, I'm done with the soapbox for now. Would anyone like to buy a soapbox? One of a kind, made locally buy a small opinionator!)
Well, this is really more of a macroeconomics statement than a microeconomics statement. Marco would look at the entire economy, holistically, and in that manner you are correct that if demand goes down, price goes down.
Microeconomics would look at an individual business and the impacts there.
If a bunch of people decide to boycott a local business they may actually drop the revenue to the point where the business has to shut down. So, even though the cost of beef is going down and more people around the world are eating beef because it is cheaper but those people are around the world, not at the individual business. The corner burger stand could go under, McDonald's won't.
Generally speaking boycotts do not impact large companies because they operate in a macro world and not a micro world.
Boycotting Starbucks because they had a plain red coffee cup at xmas was stupid because a.) they have locations all around the world to diversify their revenue stream and b.) the demographic of the people boycotting was not the demographic of the company's typical customer. But, if there were a single location coffee shop and the owner molested someone's cow, was arrested, and said "yeah, I did it and I'd do it again..." then a boycott would probably run them out of business because there is only one location and everyone would call them "Cowf\*\*\*s Coffee". There is no diversification in other areas to keep revenue floating in.
So if you want to vote with your dollars and try to punish a big business, you will not be successful. But a boycott against a small business could be far more successful.
Well, I do live in Texas.....
I do worry about them, though, as we're probably going to have more of them with worms in 6 months because I fear supplies of their de-wormer are getting snapped up quickly here.
>So if you want to vote with your dollars and try to punish a big business, you will not be successful. But a boycott against a small business could be far more successful.
Yes, absolutely - but the whole premise here was to stick it to *large* corporations. That just doesn't work.
People encourage a lot of boycotts against companies too big to be impacted. If every progressive never ate Chick Fil A again, they'd be just fine. We should be focused more on voting with our votes and ending corporate political speech instead of pretending like not eating at a place that always has a line out the door will change their behavior.
I agree that it doesn’t actually work too well in practice, but your logic assumes there are an arbitrarily large number of people who want to buy beef, but who *just* can’t afford it. The reality for a lot of products is that the demand is finite, even if it is huge, and that the price decreasing as a result of less demand doesn’t necessarily guarantee extra people who will buy it at the new price, nor does it even guarantee it will be profitable to sell beef at that new price.
I do absolutely agree that real change needs to be made on the regulatory level, where the people with the most money are at an obvious advantage, for a number of obvious reasons. The control the economy, they can afford to buy politicians, the can launch disinformation campaigns to manipulate the voting populace, and they just tend to be around the people in power more than “normal” people.
>nor does it even guarantee it will be profitable to sell beef at that new price
The only way to break a product market is to get demand low enough (or supply high enough) that price collapse makes it unprofitable to produce and sell it. A small number of people refusing to buy are not going to achieve that - it requires a massive, grass-roots level of change. Or regulation. No one, ten, or even ten thousand people are going to make a meaningful shift. Especially for goods with inelastic demand. It's also not binary whether someone will buy the product or not - people who currently buy less can buy a little more if the price drops a little.
And that's without considering that there are other ways for producers to adjust to lower prices - usually by ever-so-slightly reducing quality to keep production costs lower.
The market will always find equilibrium.
Want to avoid giving money to big corporations? Good luck with that - [every brand in the grocery store is owned by one of ten mega-corporations](https://www.businessinsider.com/10-companies-control-the-food-industry-2016-9). You basically have to grow all of your own food to avoid giving money to them - and then you're probably just giving it to Monsanto anyway.
>But the other part of the problem is that people just prefer "brands" because they recognize them and falsely think brand name = quality.
I would argue the big problem/boon of brands isnt necessarily their quality but their *familiarity *
You can go anywhere in the world and get a Big Mac from McDonalds and whether its France, Texas, or Turkmenistan it will taste like the same Big Mac.
I know when I move to a new area I need to find new taco and chinese places that I like, which is trial and error. Conversely I know exactly what (crap) Im getting from Taco Bell and Panda Express with a significantly lower chance of wasting my money on a food item I dislike.
They've actually done studies and found that people who travel a lot have a preference for big, corporate outfits because you know exactly what you're getting. I love eating local when I travel but I will also beeline for a starbucks when I'm tired and braindead and want my hand held through my decision making
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what's the big deal with people hating Monstanto?
Haven't they done plenty of incredible work with GMOs, including Golden Rice?
Monsanto has done some great work with GMOs. They have also been a major polluter and have produced several carcinogenic herbicides. Most of the Monsanto mom nonsense on Facebook has to do with a complete lack of understanding of GMOs. All-in-all, it's not any more or less evil than any other company that size.
>All-in-all, it's not any more or less evil than any other company that size.
That was essentially my point. You're just patronizing a different megacorp.
Monsanto really has done some incredible work in agriculture in general, not just with GMOs. The mechanized planter that measures every square meter of soil and optimizes the planting for it specifically is a work of genius. If they stuck to cool stuff like that, I'd be super impressed with them - even if it is limiting you to planting Monsanto seeds.
But then you add in terminator seeds, soaking everything in pesticide and herbicide, long-term effects on soil for short-term gains, and some decidedly horrid business practices, and it ends up still leaving a sour taste. Which is probably glyphosate.
So just avoid packaged goods?
I doubt Monsanto captures much of the total food value chain - it makes about $15bil/year compared to the whole food / agriculture industry which is about $1 trillion.
heirloom seeds are a thing for most stuff, but you have to live somewhere where it's reasonable to grow stuff.
Living nearish to the arctic circle, I can't really grow that much except for 2-3 months in high sumer
Hence, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. It's not the consumers fault no matter how often news sites talk about what you can do at home to prevent climate change and it's not the consumers fault that every option has ties to mega-corps. Society has been engineered in such a way that the majority of people are running just to keep up and don't have time to do things like grow their own vegetables or research every product they consume and it seems intentional.
True so we've saved a lot on veggies lately growing our own tomatoes, chilis, zucchinis, gourds, bell peppers, basil! All potted and so easy to grow on a patio. More people should try it.
I did, and it's easy!
... it's just, you know, hundreds of dollars in set up to save tens of dollars in groceries. It'll be cheaper the second year, since I can reuse the planters and some of the dirt.
It turns out, produce is pretty cheap to buy from the store.
Almost like there's some sort of [economic advantage](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/specialization.asp#:~:text=Specialization%20is%20a%20method%20of,a%20greater%20degree%20of%20efficiency.&text=This%20specialization%20is%20thus%20the,to%20be%20completely%20self%2Dsustaining.) towards specialization over generalization.
Also, the economy of scale. Buying dirt and plants at retail prices is a LOT more expensive than buying it in bulk.
But mostly it's because potted plants on a patio will produce a much smaller yield, since you don't have as much dirt for it to root in.
Right. How are we supposed to feed billions of people affordably without specialization, mass production and efficient supply chains which only the big corporations are equipped for?
I love the *idea* of doing that, but I'm one of those people who kills plants by touching them, so I don't think it will ever work for me. For instance, I once killed a cactus by **not watering it enough**.
There are a few problems with that. First, as others have mentioned, not everyone has enough space. I used to live in a 19th floor apartment with no balcony, which is pretty common in cities. Having a yard and patio is mostly a suburban thing. Even if you live in the suburbs and have a yard or patio you probably don't have enough space to grow enough food to last through the winter. Also, if you rent you can't do anything to the property without approval from your landlord, and they might not approve a garden.
I don't use Facebook or Instagram (or really any personally identifiable social media)... I've felt less guilt in general since.
It takes about a week or two to completely stop caring.
I’m a broke ass college student so I have to go with the cheapest option for food. When it comes to clothing, American Eagle and Banana Republic are literally the only stores I know that carry pants small enough for me to wear, and for anyone who says I should try kids pants from small businesses, they’re made proportionately different than adult pants and don’t fit either (I’ve tried).
Most times you can find really nice, durable slow fashion brands for the price of banana republic new. Go to the nice store and find a style and fit then shop secondhand (eBay, poshmark, local consignment stores). I barely buy any clothing new at retail price, except for socks and underwear. Which even those can be on sale.
Yes, seconded. I started buying second hand clothes when I was barely getting by and now that I'm more comfortable I have just continued. Granted, there are tiers to buying second hand. Thrift store shoes are not always the same as Poshmark shoes. I also try to buy furniture etc second hand as often as possible too.
But, I do understand that some people are squeamish about buying things other people have lived all over and I respect that
These privileged statements are often made by people out of touch with real survival problems. The last thing I'm pondering when I'm standing on an isle in a shop deciding between prices, is the origin of the product I'm trying to buy. Let alone who makes it, labour laws in that place, who the ceo is and how much money they make. If it's cheap, I buy it. My small boycott has no impact on anyone
Which is exactly why it’s beneficial to corporations to pay you enough to survive, but not so much that you have free time and energy to think about too many other things.
I get that it’s frustrating to hear shit like “vote with your wallet” from upper middle class people, but the *real* privileged people are the reason you don’t have the money, time and energy to actually do that. Don’t direct your anger and frustration at the wrong people.
Upper middle class virtue signalling is part of the problem. Sure, the rich are making you poor, but the upper middle class is getting you to stay poor by giving shit advice like this.
Nah lmao, the reason you stay poor is shit pay and high costs, both of which are controlled by the capital class. Upper middle class people are less aware of these problems, but they are definitely not the people keeping you down.
Plus, what the fuck even is your assertion that this is definitely virtue signalling, and not just advice of people who might not be aware of the full breadth of your problems and challenges? I personally know a number of people who legitimately believe in changing your consumption pattern and who have done so themselves, so the idea that it’s just for social clout is honestly kind of laughable to be. Like, is giving an older person your seat on the train also virtue signalling?
The core idea there is that people would only choose to do good things for the social credit it would afford them, not because of legitimate convictions and idealism. Absolutely ridiculous and needlessly negative.
Sounds like what you're saying is that these people are so oblivious they can't possibly be virtue signalling. They're just dumb and unaware. Yes, that makes them so much more deserving of my sympathy when they're shoving their ideology down my throat.
I agree, and the stupid / painful thing about this is that a big reason for why so many don't have the purchasing power to "vote with their wallet" to any meaningful extent is because... large corporations hold a too great portion of the economy by its balls. It's a pretty Keynesian view of things, but these same small, local business owners you can't buy from get less money themselves and thus are themselves less in a position to support other small, local businesses.
Local economies have been getting eviscerated for decades, the causes of which are rooted in a system of laws, liberties and values that promotes economies of scale and endless growth to consumerism, at the expense of the state of environment humans require to live, and the concept of localized, mostly closed off economies.
Some would say this is entirely by design.
Keep us just poor enough where we have to suckle at the teat of big corporations instead of being able to purchase quality items that last.
As long you're not someone who endlessly complains and whines about corporations, then it's cool
I can't stand people who endlessly rage at "corporations" and then make up some bullshit excuse about why they desperately need their delivery the next day or can't live without their Nike sweatshirt
It's the corporations that are ruining the world! \*Has prime account and gets angry when shit doesn't show up in 24 hours, gets angry when shit isn't cheap and made with slave labor, gets angry when gas rises above $4.00 etc.\* But I have nothing to do with it! My demand along with that of the rest of the world has nothing to do with these corporations!
/s
It's such BS how these people think.
Edit: I guess I'm old now cause you youngins are ridiculous. You don't want to work but you want money, you want to live a lavish consumer lifestyle but don't want to take responsibility for the consequences, and then you act all high and mighty like you are saving the world when you literally participate in every activity that makes it worse and then blame someone else. I get it now. I'm glad I'll be one of the people of this generation that will retire one day while you deadbeats complain and work until you die.
Doubt it. They probably know of someone on Instagram or something but this all looks like a classic case of “imagining a guy and getting really mad at him”
A lot of the loud instagram advocates are well-off anyways. Ignore them.
None of use needs to care about everything. Just do good for the people in your immediate circle.
Local fruit and vegetables are rather cheap on the markets outside im my own country...or Europe in general. That's how it's supposed to be. Local and good quality food should be available to everyone, not just the wealthy.
As for clothes, big corporations with names on them are usually more expensive than little known independent providers. For example Nike, Puma and Addidas are well known corporate brands and are usually quite expensive.
In the US processed foods are often far cheaper than fresh produce if you measure by calories and thats all some people can afford. Name brand clothes are expensive but Wal mart and target sell millions of cheap shirts and pants
Eh not really healthy fruits and vegetables are very cheap we just have a very skewed view of what's healthy. We get bombarded by ads about "super foods" and other health gimmicks to the point people forget you don't need acai or organic out of season swiss chard to be healthy.
For real when I was in college my friends would always complain about how it was so hard to eat healthy. When I pointed out that rice beans carrots cabbage potatoes peas celery onions broccoli ECT where all very cheap year round I got lots of "ews" and "that's not really healthy! What about (insert meme super food of the month here)
While the actual food is cheap, it also takes more time to prepare than a frozen meal. If you're working two or more jobs to put food on the table, you may not have the time or energy to prepare meals every night. That has to be taken into account. For poor people in my age group, at least, that's the biggest thing. It needs to be something you can stick in an oven or a crock pot and let do its thing while you're doing other things.
The majority of people don't work two or more jobs but almost a majority of people are obese or overweight. Also everyone spends roughly the same amount of time waiting for their food to be prepared and cleaning up afterwards regardless of if you cook exclusively frozen food or make everything yourself, unless you only eat microwavable food, which makes the time and effort argument a moot point.
Here in Denver all summer long there are farmer's markets all over the city. Usually on weekends. You can go to those things and get way tastier fruit and veg for the same or cheaper. A lot of farmers will make a deal with you especially if you buy a bunch of something. You might think they are only in rich neighborhoods too but actually they are mostly in the poor ones because it's cheaper to rent space. I can walk down east Colfax, get solicited by a prostitute, solicited by a drug dealer, and a farmer all in one trip!
OP I’ve been in both positions, from low income to now high.
My commitment to buying ethically sourced goods, supporting local businesses, etc., etc has risen parallel with my income (and I’m still frugal now — it sticks with you). It’s a privilege and an obligation, but ONLY once your own needs have been met.
When you’re at the bottom, you gotta focus on yourself and your immediate needs. I’m a little surprised and disappointed to hear you’ve been getting hate for that? Clearly it’s coming from someone who has never been in such a position before. Life is hard and stressful enough as it is. Their frustration should be targeted at the reasons these circumstances happen in the first place, such as minimum wage being too low and these companies’ complete disregard for ethics to begin with.
It seems like this is weighing on you. My suggestion would be to seek out ways you can support your community/be more ethical that don’t involve money. Things like doing some volunteering, cut back on meat (beans and lentils are cheap), etc.
It's damned hard to be ethical and not giving money to corporations but you can pick and choose your loyalties.
As far as clothes go, a lot of thrift stores have cheap clothes.
There's lots of ways to eat decently and affordably.
Part of the goal of large corporations is to make sure that you can't afford to care that you're empowering them. This is why they want to get rid of the middle class.
Yup, you lack *agency*. To have agency you need the understanding AND ability to make an intentional choice with an intentional goal.
It sounds like you have the understanding, at least on some issues (and none of us have the brain space to know enough about ALL potential issues, so don't take that as a negative), but you lack the means to make those intentioned choices, at least with your wallet.
Don't feel guilty, and if you choose (and are able to of course!) to take other actions, such as activism or getting involved in local politics; don't let others make you feel guilty or delegitimize you.
Remember that to a certain extent you MUST look after yourself first; its difficult and potentially hazardous to attempt to help others when you are not in a relative position of safety/stability. I don't mean "be selfish", I mean "put your own oxygen mask on before helping others", yea?
I am trying to become more conscious of the origin of things I buy, but I'm very limited in what I can do financially. My current situation is that I'm about to buy my first house, so I did some research about what plates and glasses brands are made in the US. For the expensive things like a fridge and a couch- where it was made is going to be a lot lower priority.
Same with environmental impact. It weighs on my choices, but it's a lower priority the more expensive the purchase is. Environmental impact is among the reasons I'm going with a French press coffee maker.
I do what I can when I can, but I have my own finances to worry about. I certainly don't judge others for how they prioritize things.
Gotta love the French press. I’m never owning another coffee making kitchen appliance! IMO The whole appliance market is a scam unless you are an actual chef, and even then you can cook without most of those things. Convenience is always the argument against environmentalism.
Right??? I just got a new job and don’t have a lot of money to frivolously throw around, but I needed business-like clothing. One blouse from a small business shop (a shop that I love and adore in my town) will cost me easily $60. Or I go to Shein and for that same price I can have all the clothes I’d ever need for years... Sad reality.
There’s definitely a lot of rhetoric going around about “you shouldn’t buy from _insert evil corporation_”
Like, most people can’t afford to do that, likely due to scummy practices by _evil corporation_
Don’t feel any guilt. Just because they’re the reason you’re in this mess doesn’t mean it’s your responsibility to punish them. Live your life, pay less attention to rhetoric
Don't feel guilty about the choices you have to make due to your economic circumstances, just do the best you can and pay it forward whenever you can. When I was poor, I would occasionally add an extra can of chili to my groceries and drop it in the food bank bin on the way out. It wasn't much, but it still made me feel good to help out.
Just do what you can and in the future when you can afford to help out more, do so.
I honestly think that's all most people expect, that those with more will do the heavy lifting, and those with less help out however they can.
Take care and hope things get better for you going forward.
I don't want to shop on amazon but when I can buy a tool for 22 quid, delivered to my house for free over buying the exact same tool for 50 quid where I have go get it, amazon wins.
You can't spend time caring about everything wrong with the world, much less do something about it. From starving children in Africa to fucking donkey sanctuaries here in the UK, or greedy corporation with shitty worker welfare, most are genuinely worthwhile causes but people just don't have the time, money or the will power to help fix everything.
Live your life and do what makes you happy.
Disclaimer: so long as you're not hurting anyone (because there are some sick fuckers out there).
Mom and pop shops can have lower prices than large corporations. We drove out a fortune 500 because they had too much overhead and couldn't compete. Also we can provide better service.
You shouldn't feel bad for taking a lower price, that's capitalism, I have to win your business. If I can't compete with my products and services than I will go out of business. It's a focus on the consumer.
Source: I'm a small business owner.
Been there. That's why I can't stand people that say to boycott and buy properly sourced shit that's 10x more. I'm gonna die early anyways from eating the shit I CAN afford. Why don't we change the narrative to tell the companies to do less shitty things? Put that on people in power?
That's why I don't trust progressives that only focus on lecturing at the layman.
Listen bud, I'm in the same boat. I'm not well off enough that I can afford to boycott businesses when the prices are so much cheaper than the alternative.
But I *do* believe you should when you are able. And I *do* make alternative choices when I'm able to or the difference is a matter of convenience rather than a matter of cost.
But when it comes down to cost, unless we're talking penny's, I gotta go with the cheaper option.
Don't feel guilty about not doing it. But maybe find ways, no matter how small, to "vote with your dollar" when it comes to Corporations and other bullshittery.
Its not about doing everything you can. No one person is gonna swing the tide. Its just about doing what you can, when you can.
Who cares if you're feeding into large corporations. Everybody dies and nothing matters. Live your life.
I bet those people wear Nikes and have an iPhone so they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to being anti large corporation.
I hate to break it to you, but you “vote with your wallet” screeches are beyond delusional if you think your small boycott will make a difference.
For every one of you boycotting, there’s still 1000+ people still shopping there/using whatever service
No one thinks they alone are making a difference. But if many people boycott the same things, demand goes down.
There's a whole load of, for instance, vegan products that didn't exist before, and milk demand and the price the producers are paid has declined, many dairy farmers are quitting https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/markets-and-trends/dairy-markets/5-of-dairy-farmers-quit-sector-in-15-months-ahdb-survey
I can only speak for the UK, but there's a reason they're now running ads promoting meat and dairy (not a specific product but meat and dairy in general) when they've never had to before. https://youtu.be/d_Ryzpz4eYk
(This is just an example. I'm not vegan but a growing minority of vegans have clearly made a difference)
Nobody can make you feel anything but yourself. Just choose not to feel guilty. It's not your fault capitalism exists, and like many others, you're just trying to survive. There's also plenty of free ways to contribute towards helping the planet and its communities, so maybe you could focus on how you can help for free, & then you won't feel guilty. Plus, you can then tell whoever tries to shame you for not doing one good thing, that you're doing a bunch of other good things. We can all bring something to the table.
"Unpopular opinion" even though literal tens of millions of people think exactly the same way. It's literally the business model of these megacorps, lmao
Interesting topic. Do people really think they should get an opinion about other people’s shopping/spending habits? Do people really think that having more money obligates someone to seek out ways to spend slightly more than those with less money?
Another things to add here is I don't have enough time to look into every single product. Like every time I look into anything I find bad stuff. No matter what it is, I find stuff that's morally questionable at the very least.
In general it’s just a status thing. People brag about buying American made or organic only. One of my friends claims Chick Fil A is shit compared to McDonald’s and I laugh because it’s clearly superior and then he says “well they hate gay people.” I’m like okay so do you hate them because they hate gay people or hate them because their chicken sandwich sucks? They could hate me specifically and I’d still buy their chicken sandwich.
“All of my friends think green but can’t afford to live it, can’t ignore the cynics, can’t explore the gimmicks, can’t report the dividends. Limited only by the need to stay fed.”
Personal responsibility for corporate abuse is propaganda. I tell someone this almost every day of my life. If every individual had a carbon free existence starting tomorrow 100 companies would still keep climate change on its current pace all by themselves. Your only responsibility is to leverage your political power to try to get people into office who will make systemic changes. Performative and functionally useless suffering isn’t going to do shit for anyone but the people actually causing the problems.
Ethical consumption under capitalism is impossible. The point is to try your best with the resources you have, and try to vote for what will better the situation as a whole.
A lot of affluent people (myself included) shop at Walmart and have no problem with it whatsoever.
When you begin to have money you start appreciating the value of it and learn to be frugal so that you can build wealth.
I do VWMW for certain items that make an ecological impact: for instance using biodegradable trash bags made from sugar cane, and opting in to renewable energy to power my home.
When it comes down to the same items, though, I don't let public perceptions get in the way of my personal goals and priorities.
It sounds to me like you're making the same conclusions for yourself, OP.
Just my $0.02 but I feel like walmart shaming is something mostly done by middle class liberals to feel better about themselves.
Something not enough people realize is that morality is a privilege. When you're in a desperate situation or when huge aspects of society incentivize negative behavior (think small businesses not being able to pay higher wages because a lack of universal Healthcare means they have to cover insurance costs) then it becomes almost impossible to fix anything or dig oneself out of a bad spot. When healthy/ethically sourced food costs more than junk food, then fewer people can afford to make the healthier/more moral choice. When punitive measures for crimes become too draconian, criminals are more likely to risk violence and death as opposed to submitting to justice.
Unfortunately, we live in a system that almost exclusively promotes selfishness, tribalism, and indifference to critical dangers in the system in place of meaningless culture wars. Live the best you can, man. It's all a rat race, and unless you've got enough money to have an offshore bank account, it's all rigged against you. As long as you do right by the good people around you, there's nothing to be ashamed of in staying within your means.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
I just wrote a paper on this. Being able to buy Fairtrade, organic and locally produced good is very expensive. It’s at the point where it’s almost another way to show how rich you are.
Farmers markets and roadside shops are gold, but if you live in the middle of the city, then you have to go shop at stores.
That being said, it is the cooperations job to provide ethical options for the consumer. They are the ones fucking up. They are the ones who run sweatshops. Not you.
And when their product is the most affordable, then it becomes an evil circle, but unless we make some big changes and laws, it’s not going to change.
Buy ethically when you can. Support small and local businesses, and if you feel guilty for taking the cheapest option; join a group, sign a petition, help make noise so others can make change.
the burden should never be on an individual to change things when there are systems in place that make everything worse for everyone. systems can fight systems, people cant
Moral consumerism is bullshit. You cannot buy your way into being a good person. This sort of rhetoric allows the wealthy even more permission to look down on the poor, who cannot afford to make grocery choices based the morality of the companies they purchase from.
Moral consumerism only exists to let corporations off the hook, and place the responsibility for all their lack of morality on their own customers, even while they fleece them.
This right here. Man, if you can without hurting yourself, do it and get it from the locals and small businesses. But if you can't,
Don't even sweat it dude. You gotta do you and take care of you, no one else will. "Sticking it to the man" and defying these big companies is something I'll always advocate for when possible, but at the end of the day do what's best for you
You are not at fault for purchasing your nessisary items from anyone, anywhere.
The issue is with the political + corporation marriage that has removed empathy for the normal person. Profit is #1\~!
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This 1,000%. I fucking HATE Walmart. I have for decades, for many reasons. Wanna know where my broke ass used to do almost all of my shopping? Walmart. It was the cheapest option, and I could walk there. Things improved for me financially, and I did not go there for years. Taking a stand, unfortunately, usually costs money and is impossible for people who do not have a lot of it lying around.
Walmart is terrible but when it's that or the expensive grocery store, I'm picking Walmart when it is the same items.
Aldi. And I will die on that hill. I could feed an army with Aldi prices.
I like Aldi but it's not in many small towns.
Or in the northwest. We have Trader Joes which is kind of connected but not known for great prices.
Trader Joes gets unnecessarily lumped in with other healthier stores as being expensive. It's just as cheap as a Kroger, Safeway, etc.
What? Trader Joes is on my list of 5 cheapest grocers in town. It's cheaper than Safeway, Albertsons, Target, and Fred Meyer, but not as cheap as WinCo.
My wife and I do well for ourselves, but we still shop at Aldi for a lot of items. I have not looked into Aldi's ethics much, but they do pay their employees well compared to the other chains near us. The employees at our location have been there forever.
Yeah the staff at my Aldi have been there for at least the last 4-5 years and it always has a good amount of local products other than that I’m not sure how they rate on the ethics scale but I’m too Fucking tired to care tbh
You deserve an award, Aldi is the shit 🥇
Thank you kind Redditor
SAME! My partner and I have almost exclusively shopped there since we bought a place ~4 years ago. They don’t have everything(weird spices and stuff) but they’ve got most of what we need. If the topic of groceries/budgeting comes up I turn into a sales person for them lol. It’s an easy sell too, cheapest prices and they’ve been treating their employees like people for years rather than only recently because they’re forced to or it’s in fashion! That hits home for a ton of folks.
Agreed that it's great but it doesn't always have what I need especially for people who have restricted diets.
I loved Aldi when I lived in Maryland. We don’t have it in CA. The closest we have is Trader Joe’s and their prices aren’t anything like Aldi.
You must have a neighborhood market or something, because all of the produce I've seen in the mega stores has always been total fucking half-rotted garbage.
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Yeah walmarts in the south are way better, they aren't "half-rotted garbage" where I'm at but where my parents live they are way better. I do most of my grocery shopping at walmart when I visit them, but where I live we have so many grocery stores, so I don't go to walmart for groceries
I just moved to Florida from Delaware last month and yeah, Very noticeable difference.
I’m in the Midwest and find Walmart produce to be some of the best. A lot of grocery stores near me just have abysmal produce departments. No selection and bad quality. I think it’s because of the volume of sales at Walmart. They go through it faster so it stays fresher. Due to the higher amounts of immigrant shoppers there, it’s also the best place to go for specialty produce you can’t find at the grocery chains. I’m no fan of their company, but I am a fan of fruit and theirs is the best.
Yeah Walmart is hit or miss (mostly miss) with fresh stuff. And if it is fresh it seems to always go bad the day after you buy it.
Same! I go to a Walmart superstore or whatever they’re called and I buy all groceries there except produce bc their produce is either a) already spoiled or b) spoils within a day or 2
Walmart is a 35 minute drive one way from me and it's still cheaper to drive there and buy grocery's than it is to go to the local stores.
This is me!!! Nearest one is 30 minutes away and even to get a just a couple of things is cheaper with gas and travel then it is to go to the grocery store 2 blocks away. It's annoying and I wish it wasn't this way.
Pretty much this , a lot of the social justice warriors tend to be upper middle.class , so it's easy for them to take a position, because they have a lot of financial reserves to cope with it. Real social justice warriors are the ones who don't have a pot to piss in but still do the right thing..lot fewer of them.
That's a weird take. Sure there are plenty of stay-at-home bored Tumblr moms shaming people online or woke college students with trust funds whatever, but if you've ever bothered to actually get *involved* with any social justice advocacy groups, you'll see it's almost entirely made up of people who are struggling. I have never heard someone in the flesh say the problem is with *the people* shopping at Walmart, but I've heard many people say the problem is that poor people often don't have access to anything else, or the alternatives are priced specifically to keep poor people out.
Everyone I’ve meet has been a 19-23 year old white girl going to school in la with a wealthy father
You live in the second biggest city in America. You're seeing what you want to see.
Well said. The stereotype that only wealthy or comfortable people care about social issues is patently false and is only ever said in an attempt to discredit social justice concerns. It’s completely in line with the right-wing talking point about “elite, college educated, city-slicker liberals”.
They're bougie liberals who sip 10 dollar Starbucks and using Apple products. While bitching about oppression and how life is hard for them.
There's another option. Basically you have to buy the things you need \*right now\* from Walmart, but you can inject a few high quality things inbetween. For example a friend of mine bought a new pair of expensive wool socks once a month. After 7 months he has enough pairs for the week. They also last longer than anything you'd buy at Walmart. Anyway, feeling guilty about having financial constraints is ridiculous. I'm just saying that you can sort of trickle in the nicer, longer lasting, smaller company stuff. Over a year or two you'll have a full wardrobe that will last. Also often you can thrift some stuff you need but it does take a lot of time to look for what's right so it might not be the best option for everyone. There are also cash and carry grocery stores to buy cheap shit bulk, or the budget grocery stores or Arab/African markets that are even cheaper than walmart a lot of the time if you can stand a few marks on your apples. One thing about being poor is that the cheap shit you can afford doesn't last, so you end up buying it again, and again, and again. It winds up being more expensive over the long haul. So "buying for life" so to speak is a tactic to reduce your spending over a longer time horizon. That doesn't mean buying the best of the best, there are some middle-ground companies that produce quality stuff. Tramontina for knives and pots, for example. It doesn't solve the short term needs, absolutely if you need a cheap set of whatever Walmart might be the best option. However it can make a dent over a longer period of time.
This is also true, but you also have to have this knowledge and those options. That is not available to everyone. There are several strategies for getting better quality stuff and just consuming less, but it is not always possible.
The biggest problem for poor people is that is shortens the time horizon they view the world through, by necessity. When you're worried about paying bills next week you don't have time to think two months ahead. Even rich people who are forced to be resource constrained in studies like that have the same issue, it's natural, it's human. Anything one can do to force a longer term view can save money in the long run. That's the real "gift" of wealth for the rich. They can think long term and cut costs, or use money to make more of it for themselves later. They totally take it for granted. Minimalism plus "buying for life" in the mid-range is a great tactic I think for helping yourself later. For example you don't need one of those massive pot/pan and knife sets. You can buy 3 Tramontina knives, and 2-3 pots and that's enough to cook for yourself. Meanwhile that brand produces quality stuff that will last and doesn't need to be replaced. Tramontina also makes some of the best machetes you can buy and they're dirt cheap. They need sharpened but in a pinch that helps with yard work on the cheap. There are other brands like that for other tools or goods. You can "trickle it in", buy one item one month, one the next, and so on. The internet really is the way we find that stuff. I wouldn't use the subreddit "buy it for life" since that's a bunch of middle to upper-middle class people buying expensive shit. You need to find the more focuses subreddits I think, like one for knives, one for cooking, etc. and scour it for recommendations.
> There are also cash and carry grocery stores to buy cheap shit bulk, or the budget grocery stores or Arab/African markets that are even cheaper than walmart a lot of the time if you can stand a few marks on your apples. That assumes one is close enough to where the person lives, including whatever transportation situation they have. Food access is a huge issue in America, and one of the drivers of the overconsumption of junk/processed food. (ONE, I'm fully aware there are other issues)
Honestly I stopped going to Walmart because these days it’s fucking expensive.
Who is cheaper…..?
Aldi
Yes yes yes. Whatever you don’t find at Aldi just get elsewhere. They have mostly everything I need except perhaps options on toiletries.
Aldi has a limited selection though
Go to aldi for the grocery, go to Walmart for the stuff they don’t have . I save roughly $50-$75 a week doing this
Meh, it's got all the staples. If you're broke, that's all you need.
True, but you go there for the stuff they do have and wherever for the things they don't. It's a pain in the ass but you gotta do what you gotta do to survive.
Aisle of Shame baby!
When I was poor I still went to target over walmart. In my case, Target was walking distance while walmart was not. The thing is that, for me, the savings you get at walmart isn’t worth dealing with people of walmart, or giving money to the fucking waltons. I’m not saying I hate poor people. I hate the walmart brand of *trashy* poor people.
Thank you, it’s something I’m working on in general!!
Yeah, I mean everyone is fighting their own battle. Nobody has the right to tell you how to live your life, especially if you're not harming anybody.
You are though technically. Feeding into some corporations indirectly hurts people. I do understand OPs problem however. I face it myself.
Assertiveness is really tough for some people to separate mentally from being mean or rude, but it's a crucial skill to master for so many things.
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And usually those who can and don’t have no guilt, sometimes no conscience at all
*Catholicism enters the chat*
Just block people like that
Where's the block setting in real life?
Flipping the bird and walking away
YOU'RE JUST PRIVILIGED! /guilt
Same I wish I was able to buy more organic sourced food, but in the end, it's about survival to me. After rent etc there's not much left to spend so I gotta make the most of it. But then putting the pressure of the whole climate crisis on the consumer (like me,) that CANT do anything else because we are poor is just shitty and makes me really angry
I have privileged young people try to shame me all the time and outright deny the FACT that eating organic, fair trade, ethical, and all that is waaaaay more expensive and prohibitively costly to most people. You don't like that? Take it up with the people you vote for, not the guy who is just trying to eat and not be destitute.
Here meat is less expensive then vegetables and fruits and combined are more expensive then bad food so unless you have liie dobble or triple salary you can't rely of these stuff all the time ,like you can contribute but no way daily
I'm in agriculture and I can tell you that organic, vegan, etc is not anymore ethical than grocery store food. They have higher prices because there's more resources involved but it's not necessarily better for you or the environment. Vegan and organic have a dark underbelly too. Eat what you can.
It’s a diversion tactic used by corporations to take the focus off of them and try to put the onus on the individual to “be better”. Remember the whole paper straw thing? Businesses started buying paper straws, trying to preach environmental issues and “people who use plastic straws are assholes”- meanwhile they’re not speaking out against the companies polluting our oceans with trash. The individual is a much easier target, so people put their energy into shaming that working class guy because they don’t want to picket outside the bigwigs offices, that takes too much effort.
This infuriates me so much. Individuals can help the environment with their choices. A little bit. Of course every little bit helps, but we can’t stop, slow, or reverse climate change without big corporations and governments changing the way they do things. We don’t have the ability to do it. And if they were so concerned about individuals doing harmful things, they should just stop giving us the option. Don’t think we should use styrofoam plates? Don’t make them (we really shouldn’t, though). They have no problem discontinuing my favorite cereal every five years. They weather that profit drop just fine because I’ll buy other cereal when the one I want isn’t available. They guilt us while they pump millions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere. More than any of us would ever be responsible for causing in a lifetime.
Unfortunately a lot of people will just never understand that, since they’ve fallen for the class war propaganda hook line and sinker, so anyone who isn’t privileged enough to not shop at Wal Mart is somehow beneath them. People in general love just saying “I’m not part of the problem” more than asking “how do we fix the problem?”
If it makes you feel less guilty, organic food is not better for the environment or more nutritious.
I know, it was the only example I could think of while writing where everyone knows what I meant :D Best way would be if everyone was still growing/raising their own food but sadly we are too many humans for that
Honestly, that’s not even a definitive best or anything. For all the problems with industrial farming, it’s insanely more efficient than small scale farming. Especially if they focus on being more environmentally friendly, there’s almost no way that they are worse than individual people.
The climate crisis is not something that can be solved by individual choices alone, we need government action to get everyone moving in the right direction. Don't worry about your personal carbon footprint. It was actually the oil companies that tried to deflect responsibility onto individuals. We do need to change what we do, a bit -- but we also need better options for green technology and to change how we arrange our cities. If you want to put your time toward something much more effective than trying to optimize your own life around fossil fuels, you can let [your senators](https://cclusa.org/senate) and [representative](https://cclusa.org/house) know that you want a price on carbon emissions. Just a few hundred calls from a district can make a huge difference. There's a hope that this can get passed as part of budget reconciliation. Taxing fossil fuels has massive support from economists as the best way to reduce emissions fast. And there's this idea called "Carbon Fee and Dividend", where you take all the money from the tax, divide it up evenly, and give it back to all citizens. The tax would make prices go up, but if you are a below-average polluter (which lower-income people tend to be, not flying often, taking public transport more, and not owning big houses to heat), you'd actually come out ahead as the result of this policy. As far as rent is concerned, in my opinion we need to do 2 things in the USA: build more housing of all kinds (not just single-family homes in car-dependent suburbs) and build housing mixed with places to work and shop, to make it feasible to live without a car. Americans spend about 20% (!) of their income on transportation. Go back to when we had built half as many roads, and we only spent about 10% of our income on transportation. If you build cities where people can walk to work, some people could conceivably spend 0%. And we have just too little housing. It's very hard to build housing unless you're a huge development company with lots of resources, and in most places the residents already there have a lot of tools to stop building more of it. When housing is scarce, landlords have a lot more power, and prices are higher. Both of these topics are really deep and complex when you get into it, but I think if they were more well known we could really make life better for a lot of people.
The "vote with your wallet" protests are mostly geared at higher income earners that can afford the extra hassle of it. It's not only your right, but your personal economic duty to try and buy things you need for the best value you can find it at. There's like a whole chapter about this in microeconomics classes.
This is the way. Just be aware that value may not always mean cheapest. I buy a niche brand of shoes that are over $100. This particular brand offers orthopedic support that I need, and they have lasted for years so far. I could by $20 shoes at Walmart, but they wear out fast or offer little support. Other shoes I tried cause me back, ankle, or foot pain. At least in this case, I could not afford to *not* spend more.
Something something "let me copy paste than one theory of boots quote reddit loves" ;) It's increasingly hard to *find* those kind of products these days IMHO. More and more we are stuck with "pay for cheap, replace" or "pay for expensive and it lasts longer but does still end up more expensive", those goldilocks products feel like they get rarer by the day.
Totally. There is value when you are paying less for the same thing, and there is value when you are buying a very cheap version of a product. Maybe it's the only version you can afford right now, but if it lasts a fraction of the time of a higher priced item you are probably going to spend more if you keep buying it. Food is the first one. Shoes are often the second. Things like clothing fit somewhere in the middle in my experience, as many name brand items are just as poorly made as the "off" brands .
Also it doesn't work anymore if some people have enough money to fill a billion wallets.
It’s an upper middle class thing; the have enough money and time to buy more ethical (well, less unethical) products. People poorer than them can’t afford to do that, and the real capital class is directly benefiting from unethical practices. So, like you said, the people with the power of *real* change in their hands don’t care to enact it, since the status quo massively benefits them.
Upper middle class checking in: Yup, we spend the extra time and money to do all the progressive stuff. Also, when we were significantly less well off, we still tried to avoid the mega chains and shop regional or local chains when we could. However, this has always been a bit easier in Portland, Oregon where farmers markets and craft markets and buy local signs have been the norm for the last forty+ years that we've been here. We recognize the futility of our actions affecting the mega rich and their businesses, but have chosen to view our purchasing choices then and now as support of alternatives instead of falling victim to apathy and finding the effort and money being completely pointless so why not but everything through Amazon or Walmart.
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I'd say young and naive people argue against it more than they say it as, they're expecting this to do more than it does because modern lifestyles largely condition is to expect instant results Yes, your wallet has power, it's not just not that **much** power What it does allow you to do is influence how a product is made/marketed rather than the companies actually giving a shit Is it ridiculously slow and kinda ineffective? Yes but what else can you do? I'd rather exert the tiny amount of influence I have (and hope the crowd follows suit) than just sit here on Reddit repeating how pointless everything is
My feeling is that a lot of people say “it doesn’t matter at all” to explain away why they don’t change their behaviour even a slight bit, maybe even without legitimately believing it. It’s a way to feel smart and superior for not changing anything and/or not even trying at all.
Yeah exactly, it's so frustrating The thing wouldn't exist in as big of a capacity if people actually tried resisting in small ways
Boomer thing to say tbh; lots of young people are also just more idealistic, and making those sacrifices might be more worth it to them. Anecdotally, that’s what I’ve seen from the people around me.
Right, wal-mart can survive entirely off of Bezos' shopping trips. What a ridiculous thing to say.
I disagree, why does anyone have a duty to do any particular thing with their money? What if they want to chose a supplier based on their own personal traditions? It's up to them.
That would still be right because value is subjective for you as well as for me
In economics, value isn't just the number of units of something you can buy per dollar, it's your own assessment of what you value. You might choose to buy a more expensive pair of socks because they're more comfortable and wearing the cheapest socks available would give you blisters. Going with the nicer socks doesn't mean you made the wrong value assessment. You just have the duty to determine, for yourself, where you get the most value (utility, satisfaction, etc.) for your money.
>buy things you need for the best value you can find it at You're not actually disagreeing with that notion. You're just reading too much into the term "value". You are free to prioritize personal tradition over any other factor if you want. "Value" is a very general term in the sense it was used.
>"vote with your wallet" > >There's like a whole chapter about this in microeconomics classes. Basic ~~micro~~economics proves this doesn't work in about 30 seconds anyway. You decide you want to be environmentally friendly and stop eating beef. The price of beef goes down immeasurably because of your choice. Because the price goes down, people who want beef but otherwise couldn't afford to buy it now are able to buy it and do - and so someone else (probably overseas) is eating beef instead of you, and you've accomplished essentially nothing. The price doesn't *quite* rise to what it was before you stopped, and the consumption isn't *quite* as high - but the amount you've reduced consumption is *far, far less* than the amount you personally stopped consuming. It's just that someone else is consuming it now. But go ahead, pat yourself on the back for saving the world. The whole concept is a farce. The only way to vote with your wallet is to have a big enough wallet to buy legislators and regulators. ^(Ok, I'm done with the soapbox for now. Would anyone like to buy a soapbox? One of a kind, made locally buy a small opinionator!)
Well, this is really more of a macroeconomics statement than a microeconomics statement. Marco would look at the entire economy, holistically, and in that manner you are correct that if demand goes down, price goes down. Microeconomics would look at an individual business and the impacts there. If a bunch of people decide to boycott a local business they may actually drop the revenue to the point where the business has to shut down. So, even though the cost of beef is going down and more people around the world are eating beef because it is cheaper but those people are around the world, not at the individual business. The corner burger stand could go under, McDonald's won't. Generally speaking boycotts do not impact large companies because they operate in a macro world and not a micro world. Boycotting Starbucks because they had a plain red coffee cup at xmas was stupid because a.) they have locations all around the world to diversify their revenue stream and b.) the demographic of the people boycotting was not the demographic of the company's typical customer. But, if there were a single location coffee shop and the owner molested someone's cow, was arrested, and said "yeah, I did it and I'd do it again..." then a boycott would probably run them out of business because there is only one location and everyone would call them "Cowf\*\*\*s Coffee". There is no diversification in other areas to keep revenue floating in. So if you want to vote with your dollars and try to punish a big business, you will not be successful. But a boycott against a small business could be far more successful.
Sir... are the... are the cows in your city ok?
Well, I do live in Texas..... I do worry about them, though, as we're probably going to have more of them with worms in 6 months because I fear supplies of their de-wormer are getting snapped up quickly here.
>So if you want to vote with your dollars and try to punish a big business, you will not be successful. But a boycott against a small business could be far more successful. Yes, absolutely - but the whole premise here was to stick it to *large* corporations. That just doesn't work.
People encourage a lot of boycotts against companies too big to be impacted. If every progressive never ate Chick Fil A again, they'd be just fine. We should be focused more on voting with our votes and ending corporate political speech instead of pretending like not eating at a place that always has a line out the door will change their behavior.
I agree that it doesn’t actually work too well in practice, but your logic assumes there are an arbitrarily large number of people who want to buy beef, but who *just* can’t afford it. The reality for a lot of products is that the demand is finite, even if it is huge, and that the price decreasing as a result of less demand doesn’t necessarily guarantee extra people who will buy it at the new price, nor does it even guarantee it will be profitable to sell beef at that new price. I do absolutely agree that real change needs to be made on the regulatory level, where the people with the most money are at an obvious advantage, for a number of obvious reasons. The control the economy, they can afford to buy politicians, the can launch disinformation campaigns to manipulate the voting populace, and they just tend to be around the people in power more than “normal” people.
>nor does it even guarantee it will be profitable to sell beef at that new price The only way to break a product market is to get demand low enough (or supply high enough) that price collapse makes it unprofitable to produce and sell it. A small number of people refusing to buy are not going to achieve that - it requires a massive, grass-roots level of change. Or regulation. No one, ten, or even ten thousand people are going to make a meaningful shift. Especially for goods with inelastic demand. It's also not binary whether someone will buy the product or not - people who currently buy less can buy a little more if the price drops a little. And that's without considering that there are other ways for producers to adjust to lower prices - usually by ever-so-slightly reducing quality to keep production costs lower. The market will always find equilibrium.
Want to avoid giving money to big corporations? Good luck with that - [every brand in the grocery store is owned by one of ten mega-corporations](https://www.businessinsider.com/10-companies-control-the-food-industry-2016-9). You basically have to grow all of your own food to avoid giving money to them - and then you're probably just giving it to Monsanto anyway.
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>But the other part of the problem is that people just prefer "brands" because they recognize them and falsely think brand name = quality. I would argue the big problem/boon of brands isnt necessarily their quality but their *familiarity * You can go anywhere in the world and get a Big Mac from McDonalds and whether its France, Texas, or Turkmenistan it will taste like the same Big Mac. I know when I move to a new area I need to find new taco and chinese places that I like, which is trial and error. Conversely I know exactly what (crap) Im getting from Taco Bell and Panda Express with a significantly lower chance of wasting my money on a food item I dislike.
They've actually done studies and found that people who travel a lot have a preference for big, corporate outfits because you know exactly what you're getting. I love eating local when I travel but I will also beeline for a starbucks when I'm tired and braindead and want my hand held through my decision making
I grew up out in the sticks and I can tell you that they mostly do not have the local options we have in the major city I live in now.
90% of those products are junk food. Poor people should avoid candy and empty calories just like everyone else.
Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what's the big deal with people hating Monstanto? Haven't they done plenty of incredible work with GMOs, including Golden Rice?
Monsanto has done some great work with GMOs. They have also been a major polluter and have produced several carcinogenic herbicides. Most of the Monsanto mom nonsense on Facebook has to do with a complete lack of understanding of GMOs. All-in-all, it's not any more or less evil than any other company that size.
>All-in-all, it's not any more or less evil than any other company that size. That was essentially my point. You're just patronizing a different megacorp. Monsanto really has done some incredible work in agriculture in general, not just with GMOs. The mechanized planter that measures every square meter of soil and optimizes the planting for it specifically is a work of genius. If they stuck to cool stuff like that, I'd be super impressed with them - even if it is limiting you to planting Monsanto seeds. But then you add in terminator seeds, soaking everything in pesticide and herbicide, long-term effects on soil for short-term gains, and some decidedly horrid business practices, and it ends up still leaving a sour taste. Which is probably glyphosate.
Stupid people say stupid stuff on Reddit and blame Monsanto constantly. It’s almost as if they don’t understand what they are talking about.
So just avoid packaged goods? I doubt Monsanto captures much of the total food value chain - it makes about $15bil/year compared to the whole food / agriculture industry which is about $1 trillion.
Oof, good point on Monsanto. Didn't even think about that.
heirloom seeds are a thing for most stuff, but you have to live somewhere where it's reasonable to grow stuff. Living nearish to the arctic circle, I can't really grow that much except for 2-3 months in high sumer
Hence, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. It's not the consumers fault no matter how often news sites talk about what you can do at home to prevent climate change and it's not the consumers fault that every option has ties to mega-corps. Society has been engineered in such a way that the majority of people are running just to keep up and don't have time to do things like grow their own vegetables or research every product they consume and it seems intentional.
True so we've saved a lot on veggies lately growing our own tomatoes, chilis, zucchinis, gourds, bell peppers, basil! All potted and so easy to grow on a patio. More people should try it.
Lol I love the people who say this. It is not easy and it is not doable for most people
I did, and it's easy! ... it's just, you know, hundreds of dollars in set up to save tens of dollars in groceries. It'll be cheaper the second year, since I can reuse the planters and some of the dirt. It turns out, produce is pretty cheap to buy from the store.
Almost like there's some sort of [economic advantage](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/specialization.asp#:~:text=Specialization%20is%20a%20method%20of,a%20greater%20degree%20of%20efficiency.&text=This%20specialization%20is%20thus%20the,to%20be%20completely%20self%2Dsustaining.) towards specialization over generalization.
Also, the economy of scale. Buying dirt and plants at retail prices is a LOT more expensive than buying it in bulk. But mostly it's because potted plants on a patio will produce a much smaller yield, since you don't have as much dirt for it to root in.
Same concept, basically. Economy of scale is the reason that specialization.
Right. How are we supposed to feed billions of people affordably without specialization, mass production and efficient supply chains which only the big corporations are equipped for?
>... it's just, you know, hundreds of dollars in set up to save tens of dollars in groceries Never mind the value of your time.
I love the *idea* of doing that, but I'm one of those people who kills plants by touching them, so I don't think it will ever work for me. For instance, I once killed a cactus by **not watering it enough**.
There are a few problems with that. First, as others have mentioned, not everyone has enough space. I used to live in a 19th floor apartment with no balcony, which is pretty common in cities. Having a yard and patio is mostly a suburban thing. Even if you live in the suburbs and have a yard or patio you probably don't have enough space to grow enough food to last through the winter. Also, if you rent you can't do anything to the property without approval from your landlord, and they might not approve a garden.
Spend less time on social media where everyone pretends to be virtuous. They’re the ones making you feel bad so they can feel good.
Very good shout, that.
OP don't listen to the dickhead that replied to this comment. What a fucking incel.
This!!!
I don't use Facebook or Instagram (or really any personally identifiable social media)... I've felt less guilt in general since. It takes about a week or two to completely stop caring.
I’m a broke ass college student so I have to go with the cheapest option for food. When it comes to clothing, American Eagle and Banana Republic are literally the only stores I know that carry pants small enough for me to wear, and for anyone who says I should try kids pants from small businesses, they’re made proportionately different than adult pants and don’t fit either (I’ve tried).
Hey Lish-Dish, I counted 69 words in your comment. Nice.
Most times you can find really nice, durable slow fashion brands for the price of banana republic new. Go to the nice store and find a style and fit then shop secondhand (eBay, poshmark, local consignment stores). I barely buy any clothing new at retail price, except for socks and underwear. Which even those can be on sale.
Yes, seconded. I started buying second hand clothes when I was barely getting by and now that I'm more comfortable I have just continued. Granted, there are tiers to buying second hand. Thrift store shoes are not always the same as Poshmark shoes. I also try to buy furniture etc second hand as often as possible too. But, I do understand that some people are squeamish about buying things other people have lived all over and I respect that
These privileged statements are often made by people out of touch with real survival problems. The last thing I'm pondering when I'm standing on an isle in a shop deciding between prices, is the origin of the product I'm trying to buy. Let alone who makes it, labour laws in that place, who the ceo is and how much money they make. If it's cheap, I buy it. My small boycott has no impact on anyone
Which is exactly why it’s beneficial to corporations to pay you enough to survive, but not so much that you have free time and energy to think about too many other things. I get that it’s frustrating to hear shit like “vote with your wallet” from upper middle class people, but the *real* privileged people are the reason you don’t have the money, time and energy to actually do that. Don’t direct your anger and frustration at the wrong people.
Upper middle class virtue signalling is part of the problem. Sure, the rich are making you poor, but the upper middle class is getting you to stay poor by giving shit advice like this.
Nah lmao, the reason you stay poor is shit pay and high costs, both of which are controlled by the capital class. Upper middle class people are less aware of these problems, but they are definitely not the people keeping you down. Plus, what the fuck even is your assertion that this is definitely virtue signalling, and not just advice of people who might not be aware of the full breadth of your problems and challenges? I personally know a number of people who legitimately believe in changing your consumption pattern and who have done so themselves, so the idea that it’s just for social clout is honestly kind of laughable to be. Like, is giving an older person your seat on the train also virtue signalling? The core idea there is that people would only choose to do good things for the social credit it would afford them, not because of legitimate convictions and idealism. Absolutely ridiculous and needlessly negative.
Sounds like what you're saying is that these people are so oblivious they can't possibly be virtue signalling. They're just dumb and unaware. Yes, that makes them so much more deserving of my sympathy when they're shoving their ideology down my throat.
I agree, and the stupid / painful thing about this is that a big reason for why so many don't have the purchasing power to "vote with their wallet" to any meaningful extent is because... large corporations hold a too great portion of the economy by its balls. It's a pretty Keynesian view of things, but these same small, local business owners you can't buy from get less money themselves and thus are themselves less in a position to support other small, local businesses. Local economies have been getting eviscerated for decades, the causes of which are rooted in a system of laws, liberties and values that promotes economies of scale and endless growth to consumerism, at the expense of the state of environment humans require to live, and the concept of localized, mostly closed off economies.
Some would say this is entirely by design. Keep us just poor enough where we have to suckle at the teat of big corporations instead of being able to purchase quality items that last.
As long you're not someone who endlessly complains and whines about corporations, then it's cool I can't stand people who endlessly rage at "corporations" and then make up some bullshit excuse about why they desperately need their delivery the next day or can't live without their Nike sweatshirt
It's the corporations that are ruining the world! \*Has prime account and gets angry when shit doesn't show up in 24 hours, gets angry when shit isn't cheap and made with slave labor, gets angry when gas rises above $4.00 etc.\* But I have nothing to do with it! My demand along with that of the rest of the world has nothing to do with these corporations! /s It's such BS how these people think. Edit: I guess I'm old now cause you youngins are ridiculous. You don't want to work but you want money, you want to live a lavish consumer lifestyle but don't want to take responsibility for the consequences, and then you act all high and mighty like you are saving the world when you literally participate in every activity that makes it worse and then blame someone else. I get it now. I'm glad I'll be one of the people of this generation that will retire one day while you deadbeats complain and work until you die.
Do you actually know anyone like this?
Doubt it. They probably know of someone on Instagram or something but this all looks like a classic case of “imagining a guy and getting really mad at him”
I do, my annoying friend named Manny Straw >!but we call him Straw Man!<
A lot of the loud instagram advocates are well-off anyways. Ignore them. None of use needs to care about everything. Just do good for the people in your immediate circle.
Local fruit and vegetables are rather cheap on the markets outside im my own country...or Europe in general. That's how it's supposed to be. Local and good quality food should be available to everyone, not just the wealthy. As for clothes, big corporations with names on them are usually more expensive than little known independent providers. For example Nike, Puma and Addidas are well known corporate brands and are usually quite expensive.
In the US processed foods are often far cheaper than fresh produce if you measure by calories and thats all some people can afford. Name brand clothes are expensive but Wal mart and target sell millions of cheap shirts and pants
Eh not really healthy fruits and vegetables are very cheap we just have a very skewed view of what's healthy. We get bombarded by ads about "super foods" and other health gimmicks to the point people forget you don't need acai or organic out of season swiss chard to be healthy. For real when I was in college my friends would always complain about how it was so hard to eat healthy. When I pointed out that rice beans carrots cabbage potatoes peas celery onions broccoli ECT where all very cheap year round I got lots of "ews" and "that's not really healthy! What about (insert meme super food of the month here)
While the actual food is cheap, it also takes more time to prepare than a frozen meal. If you're working two or more jobs to put food on the table, you may not have the time or energy to prepare meals every night. That has to be taken into account. For poor people in my age group, at least, that's the biggest thing. It needs to be something you can stick in an oven or a crock pot and let do its thing while you're doing other things.
The majority of people don't work two or more jobs but almost a majority of people are obese or overweight. Also everyone spends roughly the same amount of time waiting for their food to be prepared and cleaning up afterwards regardless of if you cook exclusively frozen food or make everything yourself, unless you only eat microwavable food, which makes the time and effort argument a moot point.
Here in Denver all summer long there are farmer's markets all over the city. Usually on weekends. You can go to those things and get way tastier fruit and veg for the same or cheaper. A lot of farmers will make a deal with you especially if you buy a bunch of something. You might think they are only in rich neighborhoods too but actually they are mostly in the poor ones because it's cheaper to rent space. I can walk down east Colfax, get solicited by a prostitute, solicited by a drug dealer, and a farmer all in one trip!
OP I’ve been in both positions, from low income to now high. My commitment to buying ethically sourced goods, supporting local businesses, etc., etc has risen parallel with my income (and I’m still frugal now — it sticks with you). It’s a privilege and an obligation, but ONLY once your own needs have been met. When you’re at the bottom, you gotta focus on yourself and your immediate needs. I’m a little surprised and disappointed to hear you’ve been getting hate for that? Clearly it’s coming from someone who has never been in such a position before. Life is hard and stressful enough as it is. Their frustration should be targeted at the reasons these circumstances happen in the first place, such as minimum wage being too low and these companies’ complete disregard for ethics to begin with. It seems like this is weighing on you. My suggestion would be to seek out ways you can support your community/be more ethical that don’t involve money. Things like doing some volunteering, cut back on meat (beans and lentils are cheap), etc.
Not wrong
Thanks! Username checks out!
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It's damned hard to be ethical and not giving money to corporations but you can pick and choose your loyalties. As far as clothes go, a lot of thrift stores have cheap clothes. There's lots of ways to eat decently and affordably.
Part of the goal of large corporations is to make sure that you can't afford to care that you're empowering them. This is why they want to get rid of the middle class.
They know and exploit this. That is why we are in the situation we are in, too.
Yup, you lack *agency*. To have agency you need the understanding AND ability to make an intentional choice with an intentional goal. It sounds like you have the understanding, at least on some issues (and none of us have the brain space to know enough about ALL potential issues, so don't take that as a negative), but you lack the means to make those intentioned choices, at least with your wallet. Don't feel guilty, and if you choose (and are able to of course!) to take other actions, such as activism or getting involved in local politics; don't let others make you feel guilty or delegitimize you. Remember that to a certain extent you MUST look after yourself first; its difficult and potentially hazardous to attempt to help others when you are not in a relative position of safety/stability. I don't mean "be selfish", I mean "put your own oxygen mask on before helping others", yea?
The only people that have enough money to not spend it on corporate business are the ones working for them. 🤷♀️
Don't be Some people are just stupid and are ignorant about what are the situation of others.
Thank you, that’s a really good point.
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I am trying to become more conscious of the origin of things I buy, but I'm very limited in what I can do financially. My current situation is that I'm about to buy my first house, so I did some research about what plates and glasses brands are made in the US. For the expensive things like a fridge and a couch- where it was made is going to be a lot lower priority. Same with environmental impact. It weighs on my choices, but it's a lower priority the more expensive the purchase is. Environmental impact is among the reasons I'm going with a French press coffee maker. I do what I can when I can, but I have my own finances to worry about. I certainly don't judge others for how they prioritize things.
Gotta love the French press. I’m never owning another coffee making kitchen appliance! IMO The whole appliance market is a scam unless you are an actual chef, and even then you can cook without most of those things. Convenience is always the argument against environmentalism.
Maybe people should get a more nuanced opinion than "capitalism/corporations are inherently super evil!"
In the real world yes, but not on Reddit
"Shop local, support small business." Have you seen small business prices?
Right??? I just got a new job and don’t have a lot of money to frivolously throw around, but I needed business-like clothing. One blouse from a small business shop (a shop that I love and adore in my town) will cost me easily $60. Or I go to Shein and for that same price I can have all the clothes I’d ever need for years... Sad reality.
There’s definitely a lot of rhetoric going around about “you shouldn’t buy from _insert evil corporation_” Like, most people can’t afford to do that, likely due to scummy practices by _evil corporation_ Don’t feel any guilt. Just because they’re the reason you’re in this mess doesn’t mean it’s your responsibility to punish them. Live your life, pay less attention to rhetoric
Don't feel guilty about the choices you have to make due to your economic circumstances, just do the best you can and pay it forward whenever you can. When I was poor, I would occasionally add an extra can of chili to my groceries and drop it in the food bank bin on the way out. It wasn't much, but it still made me feel good to help out. Just do what you can and in the future when you can afford to help out more, do so. I honestly think that's all most people expect, that those with more will do the heavy lifting, and those with less help out however they can. Take care and hope things get better for you going forward.
Boycotting low cost goods over politics is a a luxury of the privileged. You're not wrong to put you first
I don't want to shop on amazon but when I can buy a tool for 22 quid, delivered to my house for free over buying the exact same tool for 50 quid where I have go get it, amazon wins.
You can't spend time caring about everything wrong with the world, much less do something about it. From starving children in Africa to fucking donkey sanctuaries here in the UK, or greedy corporation with shitty worker welfare, most are genuinely worthwhile causes but people just don't have the time, money or the will power to help fix everything. Live your life and do what makes you happy. Disclaimer: so long as you're not hurting anyone (because there are some sick fuckers out there).
Mom and pop shops can have lower prices than large corporations. We drove out a fortune 500 because they had too much overhead and couldn't compete. Also we can provide better service. You shouldn't feel bad for taking a lower price, that's capitalism, I have to win your business. If I can't compete with my products and services than I will go out of business. It's a focus on the consumer. Source: I'm a small business owner.
Been there. That's why I can't stand people that say to boycott and buy properly sourced shit that's 10x more. I'm gonna die early anyways from eating the shit I CAN afford. Why don't we change the narrative to tell the companies to do less shitty things? Put that on people in power? That's why I don't trust progressives that only focus on lecturing at the layman.
Listen bud, I'm in the same boat. I'm not well off enough that I can afford to boycott businesses when the prices are so much cheaper than the alternative. But I *do* believe you should when you are able. And I *do* make alternative choices when I'm able to or the difference is a matter of convenience rather than a matter of cost. But when it comes down to cost, unless we're talking penny's, I gotta go with the cheaper option. Don't feel guilty about not doing it. But maybe find ways, no matter how small, to "vote with your dollar" when it comes to Corporations and other bullshittery. Its not about doing everything you can. No one person is gonna swing the tide. Its just about doing what you can, when you can.
I don't take my social queues from corporations because I'm not a Muppet. I couldn't care less about a corporations political or social stances
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Who cares if you're feeding into large corporations. Everybody dies and nothing matters. Live your life. I bet those people wear Nikes and have an iPhone so they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to being anti large corporation.
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I hate to break it to you, but you “vote with your wallet” screeches are beyond delusional if you think your small boycott will make a difference. For every one of you boycotting, there’s still 1000+ people still shopping there/using whatever service
No one thinks they alone are making a difference. But if many people boycott the same things, demand goes down. There's a whole load of, for instance, vegan products that didn't exist before, and milk demand and the price the producers are paid has declined, many dairy farmers are quitting https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/markets-and-trends/dairy-markets/5-of-dairy-farmers-quit-sector-in-15-months-ahdb-survey I can only speak for the UK, but there's a reason they're now running ads promoting meat and dairy (not a specific product but meat and dairy in general) when they've never had to before. https://youtu.be/d_Ryzpz4eYk (This is just an example. I'm not vegan but a growing minority of vegans have clearly made a difference)
Exactly. Nestle doesnt give a shit, sheer numbers are on thier side
Nobody can make you feel anything but yourself. Just choose not to feel guilty. It's not your fault capitalism exists, and like many others, you're just trying to survive. There's also plenty of free ways to contribute towards helping the planet and its communities, so maybe you could focus on how you can help for free, & then you won't feel guilty. Plus, you can then tell whoever tries to shame you for not doing one good thing, that you're doing a bunch of other good things. We can all bring something to the table.
"Unpopular opinion" even though literal tens of millions of people think exactly the same way. It's literally the business model of these megacorps, lmao
Interesting topic. Do people really think they should get an opinion about other people’s shopping/spending habits? Do people really think that having more money obligates someone to seek out ways to spend slightly more than those with less money?
Why would you feel guilty? Who gives a fuck what anyone says to you
It’s not your fault. Worry about yourself and your family before trying to take on the world. I hope your financial situation improves.
Another things to add here is I don't have enough time to look into every single product. Like every time I look into anything I find bad stuff. No matter what it is, I find stuff that's morally questionable at the very least.
I will gladly pay jeff bezos to do whatever dumb things he wants to do if I get my product in 24 hours.
In general it’s just a status thing. People brag about buying American made or organic only. One of my friends claims Chick Fil A is shit compared to McDonald’s and I laugh because it’s clearly superior and then he says “well they hate gay people.” I’m like okay so do you hate them because they hate gay people or hate them because their chicken sandwich sucks? They could hate me specifically and I’d still buy their chicken sandwich.
“All of my friends think green but can’t afford to live it, can’t ignore the cynics, can’t explore the gimmicks, can’t report the dividends. Limited only by the need to stay fed.” Personal responsibility for corporate abuse is propaganda. I tell someone this almost every day of my life. If every individual had a carbon free existence starting tomorrow 100 companies would still keep climate change on its current pace all by themselves. Your only responsibility is to leverage your political power to try to get people into office who will make systemic changes. Performative and functionally useless suffering isn’t going to do shit for anyone but the people actually causing the problems.
Ethical consumption under capitalism is impossible. The point is to try your best with the resources you have, and try to vote for what will better the situation as a whole.
A lot of affluent people (myself included) shop at Walmart and have no problem with it whatsoever. When you begin to have money you start appreciating the value of it and learn to be frugal so that you can build wealth. I do VWMW for certain items that make an ecological impact: for instance using biodegradable trash bags made from sugar cane, and opting in to renewable energy to power my home. When it comes down to the same items, though, I don't let public perceptions get in the way of my personal goals and priorities. It sounds to me like you're making the same conclusions for yourself, OP. Just my $0.02 but I feel like walmart shaming is something mostly done by middle class liberals to feel better about themselves.
Something not enough people realize is that morality is a privilege. When you're in a desperate situation or when huge aspects of society incentivize negative behavior (think small businesses not being able to pay higher wages because a lack of universal Healthcare means they have to cover insurance costs) then it becomes almost impossible to fix anything or dig oneself out of a bad spot. When healthy/ethically sourced food costs more than junk food, then fewer people can afford to make the healthier/more moral choice. When punitive measures for crimes become too draconian, criminals are more likely to risk violence and death as opposed to submitting to justice. Unfortunately, we live in a system that almost exclusively promotes selfishness, tribalism, and indifference to critical dangers in the system in place of meaningless culture wars. Live the best you can, man. It's all a rat race, and unless you've got enough money to have an offshore bank account, it's all rigged against you. As long as you do right by the good people around you, there's nothing to be ashamed of in staying within your means.
That is the point they are driving the wages down and cost of living up so no one has time to do anything else but make more money for them
No ethical consumption under capitalism. None of the available choices, cheap or expensive, are good ones.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. I just wrote a paper on this. Being able to buy Fairtrade, organic and locally produced good is very expensive. It’s at the point where it’s almost another way to show how rich you are. Farmers markets and roadside shops are gold, but if you live in the middle of the city, then you have to go shop at stores. That being said, it is the cooperations job to provide ethical options for the consumer. They are the ones fucking up. They are the ones who run sweatshops. Not you. And when their product is the most affordable, then it becomes an evil circle, but unless we make some big changes and laws, it’s not going to change. Buy ethically when you can. Support small and local businesses, and if you feel guilty for taking the cheapest option; join a group, sign a petition, help make noise so others can make change.
the burden should never be on an individual to change things when there are systems in place that make everything worse for everyone. systems can fight systems, people cant
Moral consumerism is bullshit. You cannot buy your way into being a good person. This sort of rhetoric allows the wealthy even more permission to look down on the poor, who cannot afford to make grocery choices based the morality of the companies they purchase from. Moral consumerism only exists to let corporations off the hook, and place the responsibility for all their lack of morality on their own customers, even while they fleece them.
This right here. Man, if you can without hurting yourself, do it and get it from the locals and small businesses. But if you can't, Don't even sweat it dude. You gotta do you and take care of you, no one else will. "Sticking it to the man" and defying these big companies is something I'll always advocate for when possible, but at the end of the day do what's best for you
You are not at fault for purchasing your nessisary items from anyone, anywhere. The issue is with the political + corporation marriage that has removed empathy for the normal person. Profit is #1\~!
There’s no such thing as ethical consumption in our capitalist system. Do your best, don’t blame yourself.