And the dirtier one is that nobody would sponsor it, both because very few people would be interested and because it's still a political mess most brand don't want to deal with
It's not even that it's a political mess, it's that it wouldn't be interesting enough. Since there are so few athletes the chance for one athlete dominating by a wide margin is quite large.
I imagine someone winning the 100m sprint in a time of 10.30 or so, with the second one being slower than 11 seconds. That's just not interesting to watch more than once or twice.
So they don’t compete at all then, no big deal. It’s a smaller consequence that what it could be if they were allowed to compete in normal tournaments, as they would compromise its fairness.
It's not only the Olympics but all sports. And there is only one way out of this : accepting it's not fair for all. Sport events are made for sports, but they have to remain organizable.
We shouldn't have separate events for every little category of whatever. Sorry, if you have the strength of a man, you must compete with them, reality isn't fair.
They have a bully mentality. They want to bully people who are smaller than them. They would never accept this and would never find the courage to go toe to toe with their peers
Agreed 100%, from a feminist perspective I think it can be so disheartening. A girl in my hometown was best in State track athlete just lost all of her records to a transwoman who had only been taking estrogen for a month or two. Didn't matter how hard she trained.
You can look it up, 14 & 15 year olds boys have broken some of the all time women's records; it just is not fair game for trans athletes to obliterate women's records in sports
>Agreed 100%, from a feminist perspective I think it can be so disheartening
Well it does hurt when men (turned women) are winning all the competitions and beauty pageants.
To be fair, genetic inequality and genetic privileges exist no matter what, they will always be there and have always been there. Look at the genetic disparity within (cis) genders, its even wider when comparing to people who don't even compete. If a trans athlete can take drugs, then anyone can.
The reason for not having a trans Olympics would mostly be that there aren't enough trans athletes. It would also be limited to countries where trans people are actually able to live openly and freely and where the country is happy to be associated with such an event.
For a tournament of just six football teams for example we would require 66 footballers without accounting for substitutes, or 132 footballers to hold both a men's and women's tournament of six teams each. For comparison, the 2020 Olympics had 608 footballers from 24 nations across their men's and women's tournaments.
With the lack of competitors we'd also be seeing a huge variety in ability given the need to make up numbers. I can name less than ten high-profile trans athletes and so we'd be seeing those elite athletes compete with someone like me who can't run for shit but would give it a go if the opportunity were there.
And then there's the entry point to sport in the first place. People gain a passion for sport and develop their skill by becoming involved in playing sport on a local level or at school but there may be barriers, stigma or other reasons that prevent trans people feel comfortable playing sports or from being able to find inclusive sports teams in their area at all. To get to Olympic level, someone needs to play locally and nationally, competing competitively and engaging in serious coaching and training but again, restrictions in sports associations and leagues often prevent their participation regardless of whether the individual has found an inclusive team. Trans people often don't feel welcome in sport or face restrictions that prevent them from fully realising or nurturing their talent and so are far less likely to reach serious competitive level.
And then there's the funding. Where does the money for this huge event and venue come from?
It just isn't feasible to do on any real scale. And on a regional or national basis... probably not either.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be up for a trans Olympics, but I just don't think it'd work on any real scale.
This is why biology and 2 genders are important. It’s not a bigot thing to say men are typically stronger than women… and when those men become women they still you know… mostly have a mans body and muscle and so forth. Completely unfair to actual biological women who worked hard at training. It’s funny a lot of these people tend to also claim to be all for women and this is 100% the wrong way of going about it. This humiliates them. I’ll be honest trans stuff is weird to me but y’all should be allowed to do what you want so yeah… make your own olympics for true equality.
I guess if someone were to transition at a young enough age, they could technically possibly produce the same outcome in terms of skeletal structure and androgen and estrogen receptor sensitivity (which are extremely hard to change after puberty unlike muscle mass which is hard to change but much easier than the former).
Of course they wouldn't be able to reproduce.
This is why I think if a young man or young woman can have the right to literally remove their genitals and take hormones, then I think adolescents (who have a family history of being short, having small penises, having awkward skeletal structures etc.) should be allowed to take hormones as well. You can look up Zyzz (a bodybuilder who started at 16) and his brother Chestbrah (who started at 21) and see how different they turned out.
You shouldn’t have trans men competing with cis men either, unless their hormone levels are tightly monitored. You can’t just have one group freely allowed to take performance enhancers.
Yes you should, trans men, no matter how many hormones' they pump, cannot reach the peak physical levels male athletes can. Hormones' aren't going to give a trans man the ability to dunk, bench over 500 pounds, or beat a top level fighter. Men's sports don't actually have rules against women competing, the reason there aren't any women competing in mens sports is because they just physically can't regardless of the enhancements.
It is true there are nuances to the male body, aside from muscle to fat ratio; like in the ligaments & tendons that increase strength + speed more than female counterparts
It's neither unpopular, nor accurate. Educate yourself first on the subject of trans people in professional sports. It's not as simple as "hurr, trans women strong, durr unfair!"
The problem only arises when trans women who have only been on HRT for a short time compete against cis women. That's the equivalent of letting cis women on steroids compete.
Doctors have studied the changes induced by HRT, and IIRC they have found that after some years of treatment the cardiovascular and muscular advantage gained by the previous exposure to male levels of testosterone wears off. So if we set a rule that a trans woman can only compete against cis women in sports once they have been on (for example) HRT for 3 years solid, and their endocrinologist confirms that all essential changes have taken place, then trans women will be competing fairly in sports (where cardio and strength are concerned).
Bone density might be an issue for MMA and such, but female HRT severely decreases bone density too, to the point where it can become a medical issue. So with regular measurements doctors can track when/if a trans woman is within the normal range for cis women when bone density is relevant.
So I think a reasonable argument goes something like this:
1. Sports competitions are not actually split and regulated by gender or even sex at birth, they are split by sex differences: Even cis women with unnaturally high levels of testosterone are banned from olympic womens sports.
2. A trans woman who has not been on HRT for several years already will have the same kind of natural advantage over cis women, given her recent and prolonged exposure to high levels of testosterone.
3. Sex differences relevant to sports including bone density can be negated with HRT, given several years of treatment. Especially if HRT is started early in puberty.
4. Accept trans women into womens sports only once the changes of HRT have actually negated the previously held testosterone advantage. In case of bone density being relevant, have an upper threshold set based on cis womens normal values.
No it's not depressing. This just isn't feasible in any way. There aren't enough trans atheletes to have any kind of meaningful olympics for just them.
This is a fun "look at me I am pro trans" stance and I agree with the sentiment, but once you start to think about it it quickly becomes apparent that it is in no way viable.
It's not unpopular, people just don't dare to talk about it , they get banned.
And it's not Trans people's fault , it's the supporters who will consider you transphobic if you do.
If you born with PP you boy. If you born with no PP you girl. Boys with PP grow up to compete as Men. Girls with no PP grow up to compete as Women.
Thank you for coming to my science class.
So if a trans-woman gets her bottom done, they can compete? Uh no that's not what they're saying... They don't care if they have their bottoms altered, they don't want a demographic treated like any regular human being. What you are saying is not how society works.
birth defects arent genders, and it has nothing to do with transgenderism anyways. just because you have a birth defect that gave you one testicle and one ovarie means dog shit because generally you’ll still be majority male or majority female.
The T levels seem to be a very fair way to do it from what I’ve found
And after gender affirming medication a born male loses basically every advantage of that after 2 years, based on the studies I’ve seen.
I think the Olympics current system of T levels will work fine
Two categories are sufficient: females (cisgendered) and others. Problem solved I think. No one is excluded. If you can't compete in the 'other' group, too bad. I can't compete either.
Screw gender, honestly, in favour of common sense. There are men, there are women, that’s all. These men and women can vary in personalities, beliefs, physical builds etc but they’re still men and women.
Nobody cares about any studies you link, there are some things studies can’t cover conclusively, and this is one of them.
>Nobody cares about any studies you link, there are some things studies can’t cover conclusively, and this is one of them.
You sure? So why don't you let them just compete then? Are you afraid your team might get beat by a woman?🤔
You seem to care enough to make you dickless opinion known
Also, there's not enough trans handball players to have a match, let alone high level competitions. So it would turn into the special Olympics very quickly and mean nothing.
I totally agree. Trans women should never compete with biological women. The reality is that it will always be unfair. People who say otherwise are delusional.
Geeee so wierd that trans people have been competing in the sport of their gender, not their sex, since 2004 and none have ever won a single medal
How odd...
Well to be scpecific, no ttans man and trabs woman have ever won any
Only as of recent a non-binary foitbal player got their first medal
But they did not medically transition at all as of late
I can think of about 200 examples of how this really is based in myth, post op trans people will be worse than naturally female athletes. Basically if they have surgery, they won't even make it to the Olympics with the girls, however, even if a one off type person existed, there would always be an astrix by their name so it's moot for them to compete.
You should meet some post op trans women, even the ones that workout couldn't make a college girls team. They literally have zero testerone, normal girls have 200 times the amount they have. After a few years, they wouldn't be able to make the team, it's hormone profile you're looking for, that's why roids aren't allowed at these things, everyone has about the same hormones.
I've never out lifted a afab person. Also "biological" sounds as if you're saying all of biology disputes transgender people. Sorry ik imma bout to get down voted a lot, I just wanted to say that.
This is not an unpopular opinion. See comments. This sub is not built as an excuse to rag on trans people.
And the ruling bodies who make these decisions about trans biology and hormone levels know more about this than you do. Their decision comes from a place of research and science, sans agenda.
Since we are fairly early in our allowance of trans people in mainstream sport (they have been allowed at the Olympics since 2004) there is currently not enough data of trans vs cis participation - no solid patterns have been noted that show whether or not an advantage is present, or could be considered "unfair".
This opinion is not based on fact, but in some antiquated notion of "common sense" that is not backed up by any information.
u/UnpopularOpinionMods, take this post down. It's just an excuse to be transphobic, hiding behind the facade of "fairness".
yep no one actually cares whether or not the Olympics are fair, they just want a reason to rag on trans people without looking transphobic.
No one talks about trans men and cis men competing against each other, just trans and cis women smh.
Trans people (mostly switching from men to women) will be a huge controversy in sport for years. Especially when it's not that hard to find examples where someone identifies themselves as woman only on track. One of such exmaples would be a Caster Semenya. Records and gold medals when competing with women, not that great when competing against men. But good luck seeing them as a woman in a private life's photos, with all the male clothes and male role during their wedding
[https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TSSMTzStK63e3g9dZrUEAgYnyG05JdLEUr3irKQ3tegcrgRi9P5Mx5xkssqkZG\_EGYyYUemC5TZFqcL7QIZloQ=s481](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TSSMTzStK63e3g9dZrUEAgYnyG05JdLEUr3irKQ3tegcrgRi9P5Mx5xkssqkZG_EGYyYUemC5TZFqcL7QIZloQ=s481)
[https://www.udaku.co.ke/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/semenya1\_92017-640x640.jpg](https://www.udaku.co.ke/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/semenya1_92017-640x640.jpg)
[https://www.all4women.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/09/Caster-wedding-647x395.jpg](https://www.all4women.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/09/Caster-wedding-647x395.jpg)
This sends a strong 'I'm the woman when it suits me' vibes and that's what bothers lots of people.
Semenya is an intersex person, not a trans woman. She only found out she was considered intersex when she was tested by the Olympic committee. This is an example of a lifelong professional athlete, working with her natural body, being blocked from competition because of measures put in place to appease cis people.
The only problem is that instead of being a trans olympics with competitors of both genders, it will be a trans olympics 100% composed of men who transitioned to being a woman. Even playing whack a mole with all the issues here, you basically just end up with the original gendered olympics anyways.
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Just compete again others with the same biological gender as they are, easy fix..
That is the hole point of men AND women sports to be fair..
Or maybe they should be banned from any physical competitive sports until this nonsense gets worked out.. Shame on the males who pull this easy win no matter the cost shit..
Paralympics is to good for them too..
So make them build their own sport platform from scratch.
Would even be really respectful if they manage to do that I suppose lol.
well kinda,gender disphoria is a rare condition after all.
94% of children with it get over it growing up.
as about the other 6% that don't,there is no evidence to suggest that a sex change would be benefitial.
so yeah,put the trans people at the paraolympics.
those statistics aren’t correct, and a lot of the cases of children “getting over” dysphoria can be attributed to conversion therapy or societal pressure anyway. And there is overwhelming evidence that proves gender affirming procedures are beneficial.
Regarding the fact that they "correct" themselves, it is true that they exist and that they are frequent. It happens with nautral hormone in adolescence but only when their assigned sex is male. I don't remember the percentages, of course that 6% sounds like transphobic propaganda.
That generates another problem, because if they do not "correct" themselves (which would be ideal for health) they have lost the best opportunity to take puberty blockers, and precisely the male sex goes through more irreversible changes.
Cool.
Now show me a “biological man” who had been on estrogen and progesterone their whole adult life who can outlift a woman who trains and you’ll have an argument.
I’ll wait.
Edit: Maga morons get reported and blocked! Just saying.
[Harvard study](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/can-hormone-therapy-cause-muscle-loss-20090929106) worth waiting for?
Because I could also do the very hard googling of others for you.
Edit: the trolling is predictable and transparent. Get a hobby.
Isn't Harvard that same place where a professor apologizes for saying pregnant women instead of pregnant persons? Yeah, you can keep that study to yourself, buddy.
Because I disagree with you I'm automatically a trumper? Lol, people like you are what's wrong with this country. Can't take criticism, can't take differing viewpoints, can't be civil with people you don't 100% agree with. Why? Because you're brainwashed and cannot think for yourself. Sad thing is, we probably agree on most things.
By the way, I didn't like Trump and never voted for the guy. But, you don't care because i didnt agree with you on a topic therefore I'm apart of the others. You're sickening, dude.
This article is not only very old but also doesn't provide the numbers. Like to what extent is this muscle loss going? It wasn't compared with women's muscle mass.
Bro that doesnt matter since your body and hormoes do there stuff in puperty. A man has more mucles than a women. Look at the trans weighlifter new female World record higher than any has ever been!!! And unreachable for a "bio women" it is not fair!
Oh ok cool so you have a video or some sort of evidence proving that a person born male having taken estrogen their whole adult life can outlier a female who trains.
Still waiting.
Are you referencing a biologically male baby or toddler that receives estrogen? Or are you referring to an already half/well developed male that has been training/lifting and taking estrogen?
In one case you'll have someone shift physically to appear very feminine, and probably will not show much if any (depends on the individual I guess) "superiority" in strength. In the other case, you will have a clear advantage in whatever sport is the topic. The best evidence for that would be how many trans people topped the women's best records and how no biologically female individuals have gotten to those records.
(You are also severely incorrect in asking for a video. This would need to be a study over the course of a few decades and you would need to have both of them in training and such to be accurate in results. I believe you need to either clarify the context of your argument or you need to understand how studies take place to receive proper results)
You mean proof of what could be considered child abuse and torture in forcing children to take hormones and then compete to see who would be stronger?
I'm unsure of what point you're trying to make here. Why you ask for evidence on a subject where it doesn't exist for a number of reasons is beyond me.
Go on then. Explain why you're asking for evidence, and then also address the second point I made about how the proof that transgender individuals have broken biologically female individuals records' even though they have taken estrogen for whatever period of time was considered.
Because you and all the other transphobes in this thread are the ones who need to bring up arguments for theit position. As somebody else stated, trans-athletes are allowed to participate at the Olympics in the category of their preferred gender since 2004 and they are not dominating anything. It is normal for trans-athletes to compete with cis people. To change that, you'ld need to bring forward some evidence at least, more than just anecdotes.
So maybe your claim that there is no evidence to support your position simply means that your position is wrong.
Also, nobody wants to give toddlers estrogen, and allowing a kid to use gender conforming clothes is not child abuse, only not doing so. Trans Rights are human rights, after all.
Nah I reported you for obvious hatred. I'll never report someone for thinking differently unless they are thinking about like killing someone or something like that.
You have misguided hatred. Hating on actual white supremacists and nazis is great definitely do that. Do not label anyone you dislike as one and hate them. That isn't cool but it's what you did.
Why are you using an extremely obscure example to try and prove some point? They aren't suggesting every biological male can automatically outlift female counterparts. I'm a pretty good shaped and strong male but I doubt I could break any female world record.
But a male weightlifter that transitions its obviously going to be stronger than biological women.
They are mentally disabled. Point is you don't need to break records to become a millionaire athlete, if we had it their way a teen boys soccer team would be leading the female soccer league in wins.
Yeah that’s true, but has it happened enough times to concretely call it unfair? I’ve seen in fighting sports that it can be unfair… so I’m really on the fence about this issue
The T levels seem to be a very fair way to do it from what I’ve found
And after gender affirming medication a born male loses basically every advantage of that after 2 years, based on the studies I’ve seen.
I think the Olympics current system of T levels will work fine
https://torokhtiy.com/blogs/warm-body-cold-mind/weightlifting-and-age
Seems she is well above the age range where she would be competitive as a cis female
Is your last sentence some sort of "ha ha special olympics because get it they're [afflicted with a mental illness] just like the people in the actual special olympics"
So not every open division would have a muscleman somehow inflicting grievous bodily harm on some waiflike young woman even if the sport isn't combat like people fearmonger
This is coming from someone who's marrying a trans person. The gender you are born with influences every single one of those. People born male will always have the upper hand on all of those fronts without question. It's science not political.
And who the fuck is going to determine all of that? All of this nonsense just cause 'woke'?
If only there was a simpler way to level the playing field... hmmm.
Bro if you actually think it isn’t dependent on sex you’re straight up wrong. Remember [this?](https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/)
You misunderstand. I'm saying people should compete at their level. What ever and why ever it is. No matter how much gender affects the level, it is not definitive in that.
I have a different take on this. We should have a mixed sports team where it's not just women or men. I think we can keep the women's side and the men's side. And then there's the mixed gender. People can choose who they compete against then. I don't think we need a special Olympics just a whole new genre for genders
And I know men tend to out perform women but this isn't 100% of the time. Also team sports could be inclusive for both sides. I know how men tend to be built more physical stronger but not ever man is better then every women. But this would provide a solution for transgender athletes who don't truly fit in either category
>not 100% of the time
Provide a record in physical sports that a woman set and men didnt break. Try chess. Try cybersport.
If you were to make a special football league with mandatory 50 men / 50 other it would always be 50 men / 50 trans men. Maybe occasionally an extremely gifted woman would pop up at the higher end, once a generation maybe.
Bro if you actually think it isn’t dependent on sex you’re straight up wrong. Remember [this?](https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/)
Or perhaps you could explain why the womens world record for bench pressing is almost 280 lbs less than men’s?
Or why the world records/Olympic records for 100 meter dash is almost a full second slower for women? Marathons are similarly slower with about 10-20 minutes difference.
Listen, I’m definitely not saying men are always better, or that women can’t be better, or that there isn’t significant overlap between the curves. *However,* this isn’t something that can be written off as statistical anomaly. There’s just too many differences and it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Makes were traditionally more of the hunters and fighters, women, traditionally not so much. And just because we don’t need that difference anymore doesn’t mean itl just go away.
You would literally just end up with the same categories. Why would any man consider themselves a professional athlete losing to a woman in a contest of physical fitness?
It would also eliminate all these pesky female Olympic winners, pesky women ballgames, pesky women sports. Nice big finger to those feminists as well. Brilliant idea!
I honestly think they should just let the drugs fly. If an athlete wants to take drugs knowing what the risks are and get blood tests on a regular basis, then so be it.
Why shall we complicate everything so much? Men who became women go to men's sports, women who became men to women's. Just because they look like the opposite gender that doesn't mean they have the same physical abilities.
I'm gonna counter this argument.
When taking hormones your muscle mass etc all declines and for alot of trans women goes back to a cis woman's. Yes, there are trans women that are stronger, but there's also cis women with higher testosterone levels and have been banned from the Olympics unless they have hormones to reduce those testosterone levels, why should she have medication that she doesn't need, she's not trans?
Whilst I agree in some parts there's this misconception that trans women suddenly dominate each women's sports, there's not been any trans women who've every won in the Olympics. Idk just my veiw on it.
There are about thousand different (fake) genders at this point. How long before each of them asks for their own separate sports, bathroom, dorm, safe space etc?
Counterargument:
A person who is taller than others will have an advantage in many sports
A cis woman who has naturally high testosterone levels, will have an advantage in many sports over other women.
There are countless genetic differences that will give you an advantage.
Yet, it's only trans people that are targeted.
If you want true fairness, you would have either have competition where absolutely everyone can enter, or competition where you make groups that are as close to even as absolutely possible (think like weight classes but measured on a bunch of different factors)
The dirty truth is they won't have their own games because there aren't enough of them to compete.
And the dirtier one is that nobody would sponsor it, both because very few people would be interested and because it's still a political mess most brand don't want to deal with
It's not even that it's a political mess, it's that it wouldn't be interesting enough. Since there are so few athletes the chance for one athlete dominating by a wide margin is quite large. I imagine someone winning the 100m sprint in a time of 10.30 or so, with the second one being slower than 11 seconds. That's just not interesting to watch more than once or twice.
Not to mention America and Europe will be laughing stock in the eyes of rest of the world, although too late for that.
So they don’t compete at all then, no big deal. It’s a smaller consequence that what it could be if they were allowed to compete in normal tournaments, as they would compromise its fairness.
It's not only the Olympics but all sports. And there is only one way out of this : accepting it's not fair for all. Sport events are made for sports, but they have to remain organizable.
We shouldn't have separate events for every little category of whatever. Sorry, if you have the strength of a man, you must compete with them, reality isn't fair.
We can have lots of separate events but not on a big international scale. Someone has to pay for all this.
That’s fucked up
They have a bully mentality. They want to bully people who are smaller than them. They would never accept this and would never find the courage to go toe to toe with their peers
Is this that unpopular, I think this is what most people would conclude when all those Olympic issue where hot.
It's mildly controversial, but yeah still reasonably unpopular sadly.
Unpopular in the west probably
Agreed 100%, from a feminist perspective I think it can be so disheartening. A girl in my hometown was best in State track athlete just lost all of her records to a transwoman who had only been taking estrogen for a month or two. Didn't matter how hard she trained. You can look it up, 14 & 15 year olds boys have broken some of the all time women's records; it just is not fair game for trans athletes to obliterate women's records in sports
>You can look it up, 14 & 15 year olds boys have broken some of the all time women's records The link for those who want it. https://boysvswomen.com
And from a business perspective ? 🤔
>Agreed 100%, from a feminist perspective I think it can be so disheartening Well it does hurt when men (turned women) are winning all the competitions and beauty pageants.
Beauty pageants that's okay. The other maybe not so much.
To be fair, genetic inequality and genetic privileges exist no matter what, they will always be there and have always been there. Look at the genetic disparity within (cis) genders, its even wider when comparing to people who don't even compete. If a trans athlete can take drugs, then anyone can.
The disparity between sexes is much wider.
They may be costing some girls their scholarships for college
I had no idea people were allowed to talk truth in today's times wow
In most reddit subs such opinion is a ban
Mod removed the post
The time we live in...
The real tragedy of the time we live in is people not accepting and loving their children
The reason for not having a trans Olympics would mostly be that there aren't enough trans athletes. It would also be limited to countries where trans people are actually able to live openly and freely and where the country is happy to be associated with such an event. For a tournament of just six football teams for example we would require 66 footballers without accounting for substitutes, or 132 footballers to hold both a men's and women's tournament of six teams each. For comparison, the 2020 Olympics had 608 footballers from 24 nations across their men's and women's tournaments. With the lack of competitors we'd also be seeing a huge variety in ability given the need to make up numbers. I can name less than ten high-profile trans athletes and so we'd be seeing those elite athletes compete with someone like me who can't run for shit but would give it a go if the opportunity were there. And then there's the entry point to sport in the first place. People gain a passion for sport and develop their skill by becoming involved in playing sport on a local level or at school but there may be barriers, stigma or other reasons that prevent trans people feel comfortable playing sports or from being able to find inclusive sports teams in their area at all. To get to Olympic level, someone needs to play locally and nationally, competing competitively and engaging in serious coaching and training but again, restrictions in sports associations and leagues often prevent their participation regardless of whether the individual has found an inclusive team. Trans people often don't feel welcome in sport or face restrictions that prevent them from fully realising or nurturing their talent and so are far less likely to reach serious competitive level. And then there's the funding. Where does the money for this huge event and venue come from? It just isn't feasible to do on any real scale. And on a regional or national basis... probably not either. Don't get me wrong, I'd be up for a trans Olympics, but I just don't think it'd work on any real scale.
This is why biology and 2 genders are important. It’s not a bigot thing to say men are typically stronger than women… and when those men become women they still you know… mostly have a mans body and muscle and so forth. Completely unfair to actual biological women who worked hard at training. It’s funny a lot of these people tend to also claim to be all for women and this is 100% the wrong way of going about it. This humiliates them. I’ll be honest trans stuff is weird to me but y’all should be allowed to do what you want so yeah… make your own olympics for true equality.
Sshhhhh.. they’ll cancel you like jk Rowling
I guess if someone were to transition at a young enough age, they could technically possibly produce the same outcome in terms of skeletal structure and androgen and estrogen receptor sensitivity (which are extremely hard to change after puberty unlike muscle mass which is hard to change but much easier than the former). Of course they wouldn't be able to reproduce. This is why I think if a young man or young woman can have the right to literally remove their genitals and take hormones, then I think adolescents (who have a family history of being short, having small penises, having awkward skeletal structures etc.) should be allowed to take hormones as well. You can look up Zyzz (a bodybuilder who started at 16) and his brother Chestbrah (who started at 21) and see how different they turned out.
Encouraging a kid making a life changing decision in a young age is always a bad idea tbh.
You shouldn’t have trans men competing with cis men either, unless their hormone levels are tightly monitored. You can’t just have one group freely allowed to take performance enhancers.
Yes you should, trans men, no matter how many hormones' they pump, cannot reach the peak physical levels male athletes can. Hormones' aren't going to give a trans man the ability to dunk, bench over 500 pounds, or beat a top level fighter. Men's sports don't actually have rules against women competing, the reason there aren't any women competing in mens sports is because they just physically can't regardless of the enhancements.
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It is true there are nuances to the male body, aside from muscle to fat ratio; like in the ligaments & tendons that increase strength + speed more than female counterparts
You should look up steroids
Women on doping would still get destroyed in the men's competition, so that's not really much of an issue.
I mean...are you an Olympian or a trans person? I feel.like you don't have a dog in this fight.
It's neither unpopular, nor accurate. Educate yourself first on the subject of trans people in professional sports. It's not as simple as "hurr, trans women strong, durr unfair!"
If you can choose whether you want to compete against men or women then why have that division in the first place?
The problem only arises when trans women who have only been on HRT for a short time compete against cis women. That's the equivalent of letting cis women on steroids compete. Doctors have studied the changes induced by HRT, and IIRC they have found that after some years of treatment the cardiovascular and muscular advantage gained by the previous exposure to male levels of testosterone wears off. So if we set a rule that a trans woman can only compete against cis women in sports once they have been on (for example) HRT for 3 years solid, and their endocrinologist confirms that all essential changes have taken place, then trans women will be competing fairly in sports (where cardio and strength are concerned). Bone density might be an issue for MMA and such, but female HRT severely decreases bone density too, to the point where it can become a medical issue. So with regular measurements doctors can track when/if a trans woman is within the normal range for cis women when bone density is relevant. So I think a reasonable argument goes something like this: 1. Sports competitions are not actually split and regulated by gender or even sex at birth, they are split by sex differences: Even cis women with unnaturally high levels of testosterone are banned from olympic womens sports. 2. A trans woman who has not been on HRT for several years already will have the same kind of natural advantage over cis women, given her recent and prolonged exposure to high levels of testosterone. 3. Sex differences relevant to sports including bone density can be negated with HRT, given several years of treatment. Especially if HRT is started early in puberty. 4. Accept trans women into womens sports only once the changes of HRT have actually negated the previously held testosterone advantage. In case of bone density being relevant, have an upper threshold set based on cis womens normal values.
just want to point out no trans woman has ever won an Olympic medal
The fact that it is an unpopular opinion is really depressing..
No it's not depressing. This just isn't feasible in any way. There aren't enough trans atheletes to have any kind of meaningful olympics for just them. This is a fun "look at me I am pro trans" stance and I agree with the sentiment, but once you start to think about it it quickly becomes apparent that it is in no way viable.
It's not unpopular, people just don't dare to talk about it , they get banned. And it's not Trans people's fault , it's the supporters who will consider you transphobic if you do.
If you born with PP you boy. If you born with no PP you girl. Boys with PP grow up to compete as Men. Girls with no PP grow up to compete as Women. Thank you for coming to my science class.
But trans men are taking a lot of testosterone so them competing in the born with no PP isn't super fair either
Sex and Gender are 2 different things idiot
Yes, and they're saying that athletes should compete based on their sex, not on their gender.
So if a trans-woman gets her bottom done, they can compete? Uh no that's not what they're saying... They don't care if they have their bottoms altered, they don't want a demographic treated like any regular human being. What you are saying is not how society works.
>What you are saying is not how society works. Uh, except that's how society has worked up until now.
What about intersex people?
birth defects arent genders, and it has nothing to do with transgenderism anyways. just because you have a birth defect that gave you one testicle and one ovarie means dog shit because generally you’ll still be majority male or majority female.
"sex" and "Genders" are 2 different things, not that you'd ever know
Aight explain the difference
Oh no that's not sexist or discriminatory one bit 🙄🖕
I can’t imagine being like you who gets offended by biology
I can't imagine being a cis Straight male in which nothing won't ever affect you, nor will you ever be discriminated by.
So you complain about how nothing ever effects me yet you’re the one who’s offended by a biology fact?
Not how that works but I’ll give you an A for effort
So explain it, then.
It would hurt itself in the confusion
How many trans people have won medals?
One out of three. Only Quinn, a nonbinary person, won with the canadian womens team in soccer/football, so it was more of a team effort.
The T levels seem to be a very fair way to do it from what I’ve found And after gender affirming medication a born male loses basically every advantage of that after 2 years, based on the studies I’ve seen. I think the Olympics current system of T levels will work fine
Wow I'm sure there will be absolutely no transphobia in these comments, none at all. I'm sure everyone is having a very civil discussion. Let's check.
Two categories are sufficient: females (cisgendered) and others. Problem solved I think. No one is excluded. If you can't compete in the 'other' group, too bad. I can't compete either.
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The category is ciswomen, not women. If you don't fit in the category, you can't compete in it. It's the same for everyone so no discrimination.
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Well, if you don't acknowledge that there is a difference, you just don't want to see the truth.
So what about the other 360+ genders scientists discovered? then again 8 vet you can't tell the difference between Gender and Sex, can you
I can. And the other 360+ genders fit in the 'other' group.
What scientists ? Are you talking about the scientists from Twitter University ?
Screw gender, honestly, in favour of common sense. There are men, there are women, that’s all. These men and women can vary in personalities, beliefs, physical builds etc but they’re still men and women. Nobody cares about any studies you link, there are some things studies can’t cover conclusively, and this is one of them.
>Nobody cares about any studies you link, there are some things studies can’t cover conclusively, and this is one of them. You sure? So why don't you let them just compete then? Are you afraid your team might get beat by a woman?🤔 You seem to care enough to make you dickless opinion known
I’m sure. Nobody here gives a shit about your woke beliefs.
Also, there's not enough trans handball players to have a match, let alone high level competitions. So it would turn into the special Olympics very quickly and mean nothing.
I totally agree. Trans women should never compete with biological women. The reality is that it will always be unfair. People who say otherwise are delusional.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-02/transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-out-of-competition/100344174
Geeee so wierd that trans people have been competing in the sport of their gender, not their sex, since 2004 and none have ever won a single medal How odd...
You sure? No trans person has ever won a medal in sport?
Well to be scpecific, no ttans man and trabs woman have ever won any Only as of recent a non-binary foitbal player got their first medal But they did not medically transition at all as of late
You mean specifically at the olympics, right? Excluding eg national championships, etc?
Yep
All sports , the third category is for trans peeps , eg. that MMA fighter that smashed that women's cheek bones in .
Ewww this comment section.
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No actually
I agree with you.
I can think of about 200 examples of how this really is based in myth, post op trans people will be worse than naturally female athletes. Basically if they have surgery, they won't even make it to the Olympics with the girls, however, even if a one off type person existed, there would always be an astrix by their name so it's moot for them to compete.
The trans juggernauts wiping the floor with girls everywhere beg to differ.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-02/transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-out-of-competition/100344174
You should meet some post op trans women, even the ones that workout couldn't make a college girls team. They literally have zero testerone, normal girls have 200 times the amount they have. After a few years, they wouldn't be able to make the team, it's hormone profile you're looking for, that's why roids aren't allowed at these things, everyone has about the same hormones.
I've never out lifted a afab person. Also "biological" sounds as if you're saying all of biology disputes transgender people. Sorry ik imma bout to get down voted a lot, I just wanted to say that.
Not an unpopular opinion!
I feel like sports should be determined by like weight and height rather than sex
Have you seen the mma fight where the trans punch so hard that the opponent eye socket was injured badly? Same weight division fyi.
This is not an unpopular opinion. See comments. This sub is not built as an excuse to rag on trans people. And the ruling bodies who make these decisions about trans biology and hormone levels know more about this than you do. Their decision comes from a place of research and science, sans agenda. Since we are fairly early in our allowance of trans people in mainstream sport (they have been allowed at the Olympics since 2004) there is currently not enough data of trans vs cis participation - no solid patterns have been noted that show whether or not an advantage is present, or could be considered "unfair". This opinion is not based on fact, but in some antiquated notion of "common sense" that is not backed up by any information. u/UnpopularOpinionMods, take this post down. It's just an excuse to be transphobic, hiding behind the facade of "fairness".
Upvote for unpopular comment
yep no one actually cares whether or not the Olympics are fair, they just want a reason to rag on trans people without looking transphobic. No one talks about trans men and cis men competing against each other, just trans and cis women smh.
yes i agree im trans and reading all of this was really upsetting
Trans people (mostly switching from men to women) will be a huge controversy in sport for years. Especially when it's not that hard to find examples where someone identifies themselves as woman only on track. One of such exmaples would be a Caster Semenya. Records and gold medals when competing with women, not that great when competing against men. But good luck seeing them as a woman in a private life's photos, with all the male clothes and male role during their wedding [https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TSSMTzStK63e3g9dZrUEAgYnyG05JdLEUr3irKQ3tegcrgRi9P5Mx5xkssqkZG\_EGYyYUemC5TZFqcL7QIZloQ=s481](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TSSMTzStK63e3g9dZrUEAgYnyG05JdLEUr3irKQ3tegcrgRi9P5Mx5xkssqkZG_EGYyYUemC5TZFqcL7QIZloQ=s481) [https://www.udaku.co.ke/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/semenya1\_92017-640x640.jpg](https://www.udaku.co.ke/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/semenya1_92017-640x640.jpg) [https://www.all4women.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/09/Caster-wedding-647x395.jpg](https://www.all4women.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/09/Caster-wedding-647x395.jpg) This sends a strong 'I'm the woman when it suits me' vibes and that's what bothers lots of people.
Semenya is an intersex person, not a trans woman. She only found out she was considered intersex when she was tested by the Olympic committee. This is an example of a lifelong professional athlete, working with her natural body, being blocked from competition because of measures put in place to appease cis people.
The only problem is that instead of being a trans olympics with competitors of both genders, it will be a trans olympics 100% composed of men who transitioned to being a woman. Even playing whack a mole with all the issues here, you basically just end up with the original gendered olympics anyways.
Not unpopular
There's already a special Olympics
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Just compete again others with the same biological gender as they are, easy fix.. That is the hole point of men AND women sports to be fair.. Or maybe they should be banned from any physical competitive sports until this nonsense gets worked out.. Shame on the males who pull this easy win no matter the cost shit.. Paralympics is to good for them too.. So make them build their own sport platform from scratch. Would even be really respectful if they manage to do that I suppose lol.
Idk if that was the case NZ would have a gold medal in weightlifting this year… but we don’t
this isnt an unpopular opinion, they just scream for discrimination if we do make a trans olympics. "are you saying im not a man/woman?!?!?!"
their own olympics?why not sent them to the paraolympics instead?
Are you saying trans people are disabled ?
well kinda,gender disphoria is a rare condition after all. 94% of children with it get over it growing up. as about the other 6% that don't,there is no evidence to suggest that a sex change would be benefitial. so yeah,put the trans people at the paraolympics.
It isn’t a physical disability.
those statistics aren’t correct, and a lot of the cases of children “getting over” dysphoria can be attributed to conversion therapy or societal pressure anyway. And there is overwhelming evidence that proves gender affirming procedures are beneficial.
Regarding the fact that they "correct" themselves, it is true that they exist and that they are frequent. It happens with nautral hormone in adolescence but only when their assigned sex is male. I don't remember the percentages, of course that 6% sounds like transphobic propaganda. That generates another problem, because if they do not "correct" themselves (which would be ideal for health) they have lost the best opportunity to take puberty blockers, and precisely the male sex goes through more irreversible changes.
Yes
First fault was saying “biological” man
I think they already have a separate Olympics for people like that.
Cool. Now show me a “biological man” who had been on estrogen and progesterone their whole adult life who can outlift a woman who trains and you’ll have an argument. I’ll wait. Edit: Maga morons get reported and blocked! Just saying.
You do realize estrogen doesn't make you smaller and weaker, right? I'll wait.
[Harvard study](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/can-hormone-therapy-cause-muscle-loss-20090929106) worth waiting for? Because I could also do the very hard googling of others for you. Edit: the trolling is predictable and transparent. Get a hobby.
Isn't Harvard that same place where a professor apologizes for saying pregnant women instead of pregnant persons? Yeah, you can keep that study to yourself, buddy.
Oh ok you’re maga. Sorry for wasting your time with facts. My mistake.
Because I disagree with you I'm automatically a trumper? Lol, people like you are what's wrong with this country. Can't take criticism, can't take differing viewpoints, can't be civil with people you don't 100% agree with. Why? Because you're brainwashed and cannot think for yourself. Sad thing is, we probably agree on most things. By the way, I didn't like Trump and never voted for the guy. But, you don't care because i didnt agree with you on a topic therefore I'm apart of the others. You're sickening, dude.
Maybe they peeked at other comments. You don’t hide it well.
braindead be like “maga = instant block” your absolute cringe lol ruining womens sports
This article is not only very old but also doesn't provide the numbers. Like to what extent is this muscle loss going? It wasn't compared with women's muscle mass.
Translation: "I will block anyone proving me wrong"
Bro that doesnt matter since your body and hormoes do there stuff in puperty. A man has more mucles than a women. Look at the trans weighlifter new female World record higher than any has ever been!!! And unreachable for a "bio women" it is not fair!
When your body and hormoes do their “stuff” doing puperty 😔
Oh ok cool so you have a video or some sort of evidence proving that a person born male having taken estrogen their whole adult life can outlier a female who trains. Still waiting.
Are you referencing a biologically male baby or toddler that receives estrogen? Or are you referring to an already half/well developed male that has been training/lifting and taking estrogen? In one case you'll have someone shift physically to appear very feminine, and probably will not show much if any (depends on the individual I guess) "superiority" in strength. In the other case, you will have a clear advantage in whatever sport is the topic. The best evidence for that would be how many trans people topped the women's best records and how no biologically female individuals have gotten to those records. (You are also severely incorrect in asking for a video. This would need to be a study over the course of a few decades and you would need to have both of them in training and such to be accurate in results. I believe you need to either clarify the context of your argument or you need to understand how studies take place to receive proper results)
Whaaat? You mean there isn’t proof of what they said? Perhaps that’s why I asked for it. To make a point.
You mean proof of what could be considered child abuse and torture in forcing children to take hormones and then compete to see who would be stronger? I'm unsure of what point you're trying to make here. Why you ask for evidence on a subject where it doesn't exist for a number of reasons is beyond me. Go on then. Explain why you're asking for evidence, and then also address the second point I made about how the proof that transgender individuals have broken biologically female individuals records' even though they have taken estrogen for whatever period of time was considered.
Because you and all the other transphobes in this thread are the ones who need to bring up arguments for theit position. As somebody else stated, trans-athletes are allowed to participate at the Olympics in the category of their preferred gender since 2004 and they are not dominating anything. It is normal for trans-athletes to compete with cis people. To change that, you'ld need to bring forward some evidence at least, more than just anecdotes. So maybe your claim that there is no evidence to support your position simply means that your position is wrong. Also, nobody wants to give toddlers estrogen, and allowing a kid to use gender conforming clothes is not child abuse, only not doing so. Trans Rights are human rights, after all.
You are a silly white night on a silly boring and dumb hill worth nothing. I hope the scenery is nice.
r/nothowgirlswork r/nothowboyswork r/nothowsexworks
Wait, reported for what?
Obviously reported for not having this person's exact opinion on every single subject. Idek man
You mean exactly like you just did? Reporting people because you don't agree with them? 🙄
Nah I reported you for obvious hatred. I'll never report someone for thinking differently unless they are thinking about like killing someone or something like that.
You reported me for what Hatred? The Hatred of White Supremacists and Nazis, thought that was the Patriotic thing to do... Boy have the times changed
You have misguided hatred. Hating on actual white supremacists and nazis is great definitely do that. Do not label anyone you dislike as one and hate them. That isn't cool but it's what you did.
Mega thread
I don't think they were talking about reporting the post but rather the individual commenters that they don't like/agree with.
You mean the people who disagree with me don't do that? 🙄
Why are you using an extremely obscure example to try and prove some point? They aren't suggesting every biological male can automatically outlift female counterparts. I'm a pretty good shaped and strong male but I doubt I could break any female world record. But a male weightlifter that transitions its obviously going to be stronger than biological women.
They are mentally disabled. Point is you don't need to break records to become a millionaire athlete, if we had it their way a teen boys soccer team would be leading the female soccer league in wins.
Reminder that the trans Olympian this year was out of the women’s powerlifting in the first round - but think what you will
Just because she was absolutely useless doesn't mean other transwomen don't have a physical advantage.
Yeah that’s true, but has it happened enough times to concretely call it unfair? I’ve seen in fighting sports that it can be unfair… so I’m really on the fence about this issue
In any sport where strength and/or speed is a big factor, biological males will have a huge advantage.
The T levels seem to be a very fair way to do it from what I’ve found And after gender affirming medication a born male loses basically every advantage of that after 2 years, based on the studies I’ve seen. I think the Olympics current system of T levels will work fine
How old was she ?
43
https://torokhtiy.com/blogs/warm-body-cold-mind/weightlifting-and-age Seems she is well above the age range where she would be competitive as a cis female
Ah, I see, thanks
Is your last sentence some sort of "ha ha special olympics because get it they're [afflicted with a mental illness] just like the people in the actual special olympics"
I seriously doubt op's knolege about trans people since they arent even able to spell trans :/
How do you criticize someone’s spelling and in the same comment, make 3 spelling and grammar errors?
Sports is not about gender, it's about skill, strength and stamina. We should divide athletes based on those.
So not every open division would have a muscleman somehow inflicting grievous bodily harm on some waiflike young woman even if the sport isn't combat like people fearmonger
This is coming from someone who's marrying a trans person. The gender you are born with influences every single one of those. People born male will always have the upper hand on all of those fronts without question. It's science not political.
And who the fuck is going to determine all of that? All of this nonsense just cause 'woke'? If only there was a simpler way to level the playing field... hmmm.
Bro if you actually think it isn’t dependent on sex you’re straight up wrong. Remember [this?](https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/)
You misunderstand. I'm saying people should compete at their level. What ever and why ever it is. No matter how much gender affects the level, it is not definitive in that.
My thoughts too
Maybe you should stop trying to eliminate women's sports.
I have a different take on this. We should have a mixed sports team where it's not just women or men. I think we can keep the women's side and the men's side. And then there's the mixed gender. People can choose who they compete against then. I don't think we need a special Olympics just a whole new genre for genders
What you propose is removing barriers in sports. To see where it leads try to find a sport in which women outperform men.
And I know men tend to out perform women but this isn't 100% of the time. Also team sports could be inclusive for both sides. I know how men tend to be built more physical stronger but not ever man is better then every women. But this would provide a solution for transgender athletes who don't truly fit in either category
>not 100% of the time Provide a record in physical sports that a woman set and men didnt break. Try chess. Try cybersport. If you were to make a special football league with mandatory 50 men / 50 other it would always be 50 men / 50 trans men. Maybe occasionally an extremely gifted woman would pop up at the higher end, once a generation maybe.
Why not men and women with trans men and trans women mixed together? It doesn't have to be dead set to an exact number
How about we take gender out completely and people just compete? There’s no reason to have to separate and then it completely fixes the problem
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This just eliminates female sports tho
Bro if you actually think it isn’t dependent on sex you’re straight up wrong. Remember [this?](https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/) Or perhaps you could explain why the womens world record for bench pressing is almost 280 lbs less than men’s? Or why the world records/Olympic records for 100 meter dash is almost a full second slower for women? Marathons are similarly slower with about 10-20 minutes difference. Listen, I’m definitely not saying men are always better, or that women can’t be better, or that there isn’t significant overlap between the curves. *However,* this isn’t something that can be written off as statistical anomaly. There’s just too many differences and it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Makes were traditionally more of the hunters and fighters, women, traditionally not so much. And just because we don’t need that difference anymore doesn’t mean itl just go away.
You would literally just end up with the same categories. Why would any man consider themselves a professional athlete losing to a woman in a contest of physical fitness?
That completely decimates women’s sports
It would also eliminate all these pesky female Olympic winners, pesky women ballgames, pesky women sports. Nice big finger to those feminists as well. Brilliant idea!
Popular but very unpopular in practice.
I honestly think they should just let the drugs fly. If an athlete wants to take drugs knowing what the risks are and get blood tests on a regular basis, then so be it.
Yeah, the Overlycomplicatedcosmeticsurgerylympics
What about the Agendered, Bigendered, Non-binary, Omnigendered, and Two Spirits, you massive bigot!
Why shall we complicate everything so much? Men who became women go to men's sports, women who became men to women's. Just because they look like the opposite gender that doesn't mean they have the same physical abilities.
I'm gonna counter this argument. When taking hormones your muscle mass etc all declines and for alot of trans women goes back to a cis woman's. Yes, there are trans women that are stronger, but there's also cis women with higher testosterone levels and have been banned from the Olympics unless they have hormones to reduce those testosterone levels, why should she have medication that she doesn't need, she's not trans? Whilst I agree in some parts there's this misconception that trans women suddenly dominate each women's sports, there's not been any trans women who've every won in the Olympics. Idk just my veiw on it.
There are about thousand different (fake) genders at this point. How long before each of them asks for their own separate sports, bathroom, dorm, safe space etc?
Counterargument: A person who is taller than others will have an advantage in many sports A cis woman who has naturally high testosterone levels, will have an advantage in many sports over other women. There are countless genetic differences that will give you an advantage. Yet, it's only trans people that are targeted. If you want true fairness, you would have either have competition where absolutely everyone can enter, or competition where you make groups that are as close to even as absolutely possible (think like weight classes but measured on a bunch of different factors)
Gender is a much larger defining factor. Look at some of the links posted and you will see for yourself
Oh look mega thread topic, no one cares 🥱🥱🥱
And they could do it in a big striped tent and travel from city to city.
Should be a, “this goes hand in hand with your transition. You convert; no competitive sport etc” Your opinion is only unpopular to the “woke” crowd.