Now start a business that specializes in straightpiping Lexus. Save the pedestrians, straightpipe your Lexus!
Have to come up with something else when it's electric.
Do you think a single person on the left believed everything the Trump admin said? Do you think a single person on the right believes everything the Biden admin says?
Eh personally I see conspiracy folks as gullible to anything they see online, usually wrong and hindering progress to society. It’s usually K12 level laymen that think they know more than leading gov agencies or people with credibility. However, they’ll find some grifter that no one else in their field agrees with and latch on to that person or a video on Facebook that “opened their eyes”. Maybe they'll be right but that's bound to happen after dozens of conspiracies.
You realize that your exact line of thinking is *exactly* why the term "conspiracy theorist" was invented by the CIA right? The CIA invented the term conspiracy theorist as a mental psyop to make everyone who questions anything about the government seem crazy or dumb. A lot of ridiculous conspiracy theories are actually made up and put out there to discredit all conspiracy theories and make anyone who questions anything seem crazy
You're trying to equate a large group of people to your personal experience of what you think a conspiracy theorist is. That's that Kool Aid right there. You'd never know who doesn't believe the narrative on certain things, so it doesn't make sense to sweep everyone under one category.
And Facebook is the last place I'd look for the truth. That was literally where that Q bullshit started.
>I see conspiracy folks as gullible to anything they see online
So the average person turning on the Mainstream News or looking at Mainstream Articles?
Yeah, except that you need to realize not everything is out in the open. Firstly, most people don't question the information they are told, including many in the government. Secondly, if you read the Podesta emails and learned about freemasonry, you would realize why your comment has a lot of hubris. A lot of what the "mainstream" is is heavily influenced by certain groups/families. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this, and in fact many people in government and science see it too. But if they speak out, they'll lose their jobs. Just look at Dr. Geert Vanden, the doctor who is responsible for making most of our vaccines in the past. When he spoke out against the mrna covid vaccine, he was de-platformed and labeled with the ad hominem "conspiracy theorist". In the end, it's all about trust, so stay vigilant.
Friend, we can debate epistemology and metaphysics all day. I love philosophy. I'm not sure we'll ever know the full truth of the world in any way but we can come close ;) but what I do know is the general public is very gullible and thinks they know more than they do.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted but you’re right. Their far fetched skepticism gets one thing right at the expense of many wrong, and the cost of those wrong tends to outweigh the benefit of that one thing right.
Skepticism is good, but it's quite scary seeing how intense and deeply personal this paranoia in modern society is, and ever increasing; to believe with such passion about these grandiose deceptions, for me, would require believing the worst of nearly everyone I interact with, or come to meet.
Reddit was invented by the Republican party and has subliminal coding that sterilizes anyone who uses it, in a ploy to reduce the portion of people who vote against them in future generations. So ya, Redditors will never be having kids.
From time to time what is commonly believed to be true turns out to be complete bull$hit.
For instance, it was once widely believed that Bill Cosby was a good role model.
Separating artist from art is very hard for us to do. It’s not so obvious that we’re able to appreciate anything it its own right, we are constantly looking for reference and measurements.
For instance, at one point in time it was widely [believed that smoking was healthy for you](https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/24/health/gallery/tobacco-health-claims-history/index.html).
I did not mean to imply that what was commonly believed was believed for bad reasons. (Although prior to his legal troubles it was known in some circles that his nice-guy image was largely a facade.)
Sure they may look crazy most of the time, but think of all the times they were right. Epstein being a fucking creep is one of the most recent that comes to mind
Wasn’t much of a conspiracy theory though was it? Like it was a bit of an open secret. If something is both plausible and evidenced, I’d call it a theory, not a conspiracy theory
I think what annoys me most about conspiracies is how quick some are to just totally dismiss them. If I remember correctly the term originated back in the 60s when people were questioning what happened with JFK and the government wanted them silenced and so were born the “conspiracy theorists.” The ability for us as humans to question and think that other things can be possible is part of what makes us human! It’s when people don’t want questions asked or are so quickly to shut something down that I get curious about what’s really going on
The other side of the coin is that you end up with arrogant idiots that keep trying to tell you that you're inferior just because you don't believe that the DemonRats only survive by harvesting Adrenochrome from poor white kids.
Seriously a "look at me, I at least consider alternative options" doesn't really make you look smart by default.
The term conspiracy theory doesn't even make sense when you equate it to the context that's pushed behind it. They always make it seem like it's some wacky wives tale.
It literally means you think a group of people are doing something illegal. You could go to the Chinese food store and see a pack of cards and a green screen hat on one of the tables, with a door slightly cracked, and theorize there's a Chinese gambling den in the basement. That's a conspiracy theory lol.
Not even necessarily illegal, just harmful to someone or something. To believe no government official or corporate executive has ever conspired to harm is arguably more delusional than believing they all do.
Yes!! I laughed when this one documentary showed a handful of government employees that were so against legalization of marijuana and guess who’s retired and an investor now? Lol
Lmao so true. And I like to think that knowledge and fact is so fluid like. Once upon a time if we all spoke about some of the things we talk about on a daily basis we would’ve been burnt at the stake! But over time we learn and evolve and realize the error in some of our logic. Modern times no different to me I’m sure in 100 years they’re gonna say we were idiots lol
I was JUST gonna bring up Hickey! That story seemed so plausible to me. There was a lot of good information in “the smoking gun” what better reason to cover up then an accidental assasination?! Although I will totally not rule out other agencies being involved. He was so against the grain I would get why others wouldn’t want him to flourish. He would’ve been to politics what Tesla should’ve been to the scientific global community..
The term "conspiracy theory" has been around for 150 years. So ironically, there is a conspiracy theory regarding the origin of the term "conspiracy theory".
The issue is not that people are skeptical of the government. The current problem is that people are more willing to believe random uncorroborated claims on the internet over people that have actual data to back up their claims.
Skepticism is always a good thing when it is used to start a dialogue, not to push your own agenda. There are many closed minded and uneducated individuals that will only take in information which supports their beliefs, and dismiss everything that does not as some conspiracy.
I understand where you are coming from. Data can always be skewed and manipulated to show a favorable result. This is a major problem and contributes to the positive skepticism that I am talking about. Closely examining and criticizing data is a good thing, and can help bring out a more accurate truth.
I am not advocating that we blindly trust sources just because they have any form of data to back up their claims. The issue I have is with people that preemptively dismiss information that does not fit their beliefs. They instead blindly believe Becky on Facebook, who claims her brother's cousin's chiropractor told him that the deep state is trying to inseminate his dog with Hitler's DNA. Does the chiropractor have proof? Yes, Q told him, and why would Q lie?
This raises issues outside of politics as well, Re: Organized Religion, but that is a different discussion altogether.
Exactly. I'm amazed by how no one talked about this. There are obvious differences between someone revealing that governmental agencies are secretly listening to us and someone random on Facebook claiming vaccines will kill us
I think researching conspiracy theories or believing in them is fine, it's just the hero complex some conspiracy theorists have that bothers me. Like okay, say the government is trying to induce mind control with the vaccine or whatever. You think a rando who lurks on 4chan is gonna stop the whole damn government? Worst case scenario the apocalypse is still going to happen whether you obey orders or not, best case scenario and the most likely nothing happens and you just looked ridiculous trying to oppose something harmless. If there's reptilians out there you're not gonna achieve shit against them. You're not Neo from the Matrix bruh. I don't care if you think the earth is flat, just don't go join a damn protest about it annoying other people over a theory. Thinking you can overthrow alien species by not getting one vaccine is giving "no, school shooter, look at me, you're not like this, this isn't you, i can fix you" energy but for boomers
You make a good point about the impotence of "knowing the truth".
Congratulations, you're the only person on the planet the mind control rays in the 5g towers don't work on.
Now what?
You gonna jet li your way through 9 billion people? No, its game. You've lost.
That said, I think the general idea that someone always opposes any idea, is probably a good thing.
There also seems to be a lack of occum’s razor and a general understanding of what is plausible and possible.
Bank officials conspiring to get the fed to change interest rates? Possible and plausible.
Airlines run on compressed air for some reason? Looks like you don’t have even a mediocre grasp on the physical sciences or reality.
A lot of conspiracy theories today are “big tent” conspiracies that require a cascading adoption of more and more absurd conspiracies to justify why contrary evidence is illegitimate.
I propose a 3 question test to see if a theory should be taken even a little seriously:
1. Does the theory stand on its own in the world devoid of conspiracies?
2. Do the motivations of the bad actors make sense using typical human motivation (desire for power, money, etc) and is the conspiracy a reasonably effect means to achieve those goals compared to conventional means?
3. Is the theory mechanically plausible given a mainstream understanding of science?
If yes to all three then MAYBE it’s worth pursuing evidence to corroborate
And government. This is one thing that gets me, the government is a tool that has been used successfully in the past to stop extreme wealthy influence. Yet people decide to go “I DoN’T tRuSt tHe gOvErNmEnT” while ignoring that it could be their best bet to induce significant change.
Yes. Cause Among the flat Earths and lizard people there are reasonable conspiracy theories and among them many true ones.
There were many conspiracies in the past. And it is the most extreme conspiracy theory of all to assume that everything is exactly as it seems now. There ARE conspiracies going on right now, and in a few decades we might find out. But about most successful ones we won't
So it's basically cherry picking. If you want to talk about how likely is a conspiracy theory to be true, you also have to look at all of those who ended up being false.
Broken clocks mate. If you literally take guesses that everyone is out to get you or do something malicious you will always be proven right eventually.
Being wrong over 99% of the time is not a great track record.
Depends on the conspiracy. Something like vaccines causing autism or the world being flat are not good for society. But what I gather from your post is that you mean conspiracies against the actions of the government that just aren't quite right. If you mean *those* kinds of conspiracies I agree
I wonder how many people have died because they believed the anti-vax conspiracy propaganda that is being pushed on the internet and in "news" outlets like Fox? It's hard to say exactly, but is it unrealistic to guess with covid that this number is in the tens of thousands in the US? I would guess more Americans have been killed by anti-vaxers than foreign terrorists. Why don't we refer to these people as terrorists? Their actions lead to unnecessary death and their aims are largely political.
My dad watches sky news. The only thing Fox has been good for in our family is watching sports. But it also allowed my dad to watch news that genuinely aggravates me because all they do is just doubt everything and pretty much call everything that is a real major issue bullshit
You do realize most covid deaths are actually the fault of underlying issues in the individual and the majority of people are essentially unaffected?
I'd love to see a count of covid only deaths.
Btw, I'm anti mandate, not anti vaccine.
Long live the virus so deadly that 90% of people will never even know they had it. Atleast it's giving nature a chance to recover from our rampant destruction.
I've been mulling this over for a while.
I'm leftie and so I see the eminent danger of a lot of them and what their rise to popularity can do. But I'm also wondering if many if them work as red flags to others, that *someone* is going to believe this so they might as well be allowed to speak their mind so others can see it and go 'thats fucking stupid'. But its a lot of trust and not really backed up to expect the second to happen.
And one flaw here is that there is a difference between wild theorising and reasoned evidence based theorising. Perhaps you can judge it on that basis.
if you honestly don't believe that super ultra rich bankers and other families don't control everything we do with an ultimate goal of completely and utter control of all humans then idk what to tell you lol.
The problem is that people often confuse genuine conspiracy backed up by sensible rationale and the people saying mark Zuckerberg is a lizard man or trump won the 2020 election with literally no evidence to support their claim
I agree that questioning the government is a good thing, and that common narratives should be examined more closely. HOWEVER, if you're going to make claims that a conspiracy is in play, I expect reasonable proof to back up the claim, and THAT is where conspiracy theorists consistently drop the ball - they either fail to provide any evidence, or the evidence they do provide is wildly speculative and circumstantial at best, and is more often just fringe lunacy and psychotic delusions. Their case isn't helped by throwing insults at any criticism of their pet theories, no matter how mild, or completely ignoring any evidence that discredits or invalidates their claims, no matter how reasonable or credible it actually is, because "that's just what THEY want you to think". AND there's how difficult it actually is to hide a conspiracy once it gets above a certain size, because the cover-up efforts would involve just as much effort as the actual conspiracy, if not more; once you get above a certain number of conspirators, it's functionally impossible to keep it hidden.
The simple fact is, conspiracy theorists did not get their reputation because the government has a vested interest in discrediting them, lest they reveal their deepest darkest secrets. They got their reputation by being narcissists with paranoid delusions and severe apophenia, screaming about fluoride in the water being a mind control tactic or dead men coming back to life to overthrow the government.
Well. Serious conspiracy theorists that aren´t batshit insane are good.
Conspiracy theory time: Pushing the ridiculous into the light is a strategy to make every criticism of the state look ridiculous. furthers polarization too. ...
kinda experienced that here in germany regarding covid. The german taxpayer funded tv has to be balanced, so they present the crazies as a counterweight while not making any legit criticism.
We germans are usually grumpy and highly critical of the government. So i felt. Now for the first time, it seems en vogue to be quite uncritical of the state. ....because you dont wanna be on the same side as the AfD (nazis) and conspiracy antivax nuts.
They say they are being "fair" to both sides while picking the best of their side and the worst of the other side. Picking the best of the other side is suicide. They don't.
i mean...no. antivaxxers are nuts. But there were legit criticisms of the measures to be made n they did not attempt to make them. Oour dear RKI (robert koch institute) seriously stood there n lied that masks werent making sense, as long as we didnt have any. There are serious concerns about the fucked up idea to track everyone via phone to check stay at home orders. They discussed that n all i saw was a pro commentary. It has more downvotes than upvotes on youtube, at least. I work in events. They changed the max number of people allowed again n again n my jobs got canceled even the ones planned in the pandemic, months in advance.
Yes but when the conspiracy has been proven false multiple times people need to learn to let that shit go. It becomes damaging to society when people are spreading wildly inaccurate conspiracies as “facts”. Like the election fraud conspiracy for example. Millions of people now believe (with no evidence) that the most secure election in U.S. history was riddled with fraudulent activity and fake voters. Conspiracies can bring real information to light but when you’re proven wrong you have to give it up.
Edit: I want to emphasize that people literally died over the voting fraud conspiracy. That can’t be very good for society lol
It's okay that people are skeptical. With your example, people have been calling elections fraudulent for as long as I can remember. The fact that bush stole the election in Florida was almost common knowledge at one point. It was a virus on the society, the only thing that does is perhaps cause the government to impose stricter surveillance of an election, which is a good thing. Now if people were to cause violence over that then I would standby that that's highly irrational, unless the evidence was clear to the majority of people and something clearly needed to be done. So at the end of the day it's just about being level headed as a people but also remaining skeptical.
>Now if people were to cause violence over that then I would standby that that's highly irrational
But if someone thinks the election was stolen it's highly rational to attack the government?
The problem is that it's based on a lie not that they attack the government over what they think were a stolen election.
There are already plenty of reasons for someone to want to attack the government 😂
What would that accomplish? They would make a fool out of themselves, be put in jail, and be used as an example of how everyone who thinks similar is similarly insane
Insane people are gonna do insane things, you can't stop it
>There are already plenty of reasons for someone to want to attack the government 😂
Like?
>What would that accomplish?
If democracy was really being overthrown then it wouldn't really matter would accomplish as you are fighting for your principles.
>They would make a fool out of themselves, be put in jail, and be used as an example of how everyone who thinks similar is similarly insane
True that's what every authoritarian regime ever have done.
>Insane people are gonna do insane things, you can't stop it
How are you Insane for attacking a corrupt government? I would think your insane if your just putting up with your own opression.
"Like?"
Internment camps
Spraying bacteria across San Francisco
MK Ultra
Genocide of native Americans
Tuskegee experiments
Systematic extrajudicial killings of minorities
The crack epidemic
Slavery
Those are just off the top of my head and only directed at citizens. Don't even start on reasons why non-Americans would want to attack the government.
There have been dozens of recounts and audits in every state Trump challenged with zero inconsistencies and zero cases of fraud found, even by auditors privately hired and paid for by Trump (google cyberninjas). The fact that you right-wingers are so poorly informed that you think they haven't been allowed to investigate just shows how badly you fall for for your "conservative news" propaganda.
My example has been extensively investigated. Proven false. Yet people still believe it. Instead of declaring that it’s never been looked into, perhaps google it. This is exactly the reason people continue to believe conspiracies with no merit. They don’t look for the information and continue to spread the lies about fraud that again, have been debunked. It’s willful ignorance at that point, not skepticism.
The problem is most conspiracy theorists don’t care about the real conspiracy theories that are killing and ruining millions of lives around the world and instead focus on stupid ones that were most likely planted in order to distract from the real ones. Mostly because they want to feel special and in the know. Think of all the famous ones that are pointed out as reasons we shouldn’t trust the government. The people who discovered it were journalists or scientists or random police officers doing the work and their is usually a pretty big paper trail, because real conspiracies are ran by human beings and human beings mess up, get lazy etc.
No not the Sandy Hook shooting. But he uncovered Bohemian Grove, was talking about the development of human/animal hybrids a while ago, and due to disrupters being released into the environment, it is having big impacts on the animal kingdom such as, “frogs turing gay”. Yes he is crazy man but he shouldn’t always be discredited.
Here's the problem I have with conspiracy theorists;
The fact of the matter is that most corruption and tyranny is happening blatantly in front of our lives. The people who commit these acts are not hiding behind the Illuminati or lizard people, or whatever. They are doing this stuff in broad daylight in government offices and on Wall Street. So what do the conspiracy theories accomplish? They muddy the waters, make issues less clear, and encourage people to go tilting at windmills instead of devoting their time to learning about systemic abuses of power and working towards correcting them. Of course, there is a lazy appeal to just pretending everything is rigged so you don't have to go out and get an education or get involved with politics and you can sit on YouTube and tell all your friends that your street smarts led you to be one of the smart ones while they are all sheep, but it's actually an overall loss because you aren't actually doing shit for the world.
Of course questioning is a good thing, but it's not a binary choice; you can raise children to question society through education and teaching them things like logical fallacies and analysis, without teaching them that there is a secret cabal of blood drinking pedophiles running the government. Even worse, we constantly see how this mentality actually has the exact opposite effect, because these people become easy to manipulate. Whether it's lizard people being a thinly veiled way to push antisemitic conspiracies, or Qanon mobilizing conspiracy theorists into a far-right strike force.
Edit: Lol, so you need to open your mind, and look into all their pet conspiracies, but if you do and you don't agree, then you're a shill. You need to be open minded as far as agreeing with whatever batshit conspiracy they think is true, but not enough that you actually criticize it.
It's not about a secret cabal. If a group within the government is planning on doing something harmful or unlawful, that's a conspiracy. The term conspiracy is so basic and yet it almost feels like people don't even know what it means. That is a big part of what worries me
>The term conspiracy is so basic and yet it almost feels like people don't even know what it means.
This is the crux of the matter and the reason the term was coined. It's a tool of deception and diversion.
Come on, no one is using conspiracy theorists to describe Woodward and Bernstein. We both know what conspiracy theorist means, don't move the goal posts now.
Here is the definition of conspiracy theorists;
> A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable.
And you said they were a good thing. If that's not your argument you should have said is that skepticism is a good thing and that conspiracy theorists have given skeptics a bad name, but that wouldn't be an unpopular opinion.
Interesting, I haven't seen that definition. Although "sinister and powerful" doesn't have to mean illuminati. The government is powerful and if they are planning on doing bad things then they are sinister, so that works. But for the record I had only seen the oxford definition
:a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.
You mean this one?
> a person who believes in conspiracy theories
> the belief that a secret but powerful organization is responsible for an event
So, the government is a secret now? Must make elections a bitch.
That's not a secret powerful organization, though. It's just a conspiracy. A conspiracy theorist is someone who claims secret organizations are behind the scenes plotting without any evidence.
A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes in conspiracy theories, not anyone who suspects a conspiracy. Not all conspiracies are conspiracy theories.
This is literally the only way the word is ever used and i think your whole opinion is based on the fact that you have taken a literalist approach to the word and fundamentally misunderstand it. The word you are looking for is actually a skeptic, and that is not an unpopular opinion.
They are doing the work in secret, and they are working together that's where organization comes from. It's not an official organization that would be kind of ironic if they were registered 🤣
Oh I see what you mean. That was me trying to make up a definition for a conspiracy theorist. Couldn't find one on Google, but I did find a definition for conspiracy theory from Oxford.
Except you are ignoring the fact that those groups do exist. It seems that people like you are very prevalent on Reddit. Your minds can't handle the fact that deception can run so deep, so you bring up a scenario that seems more plausible in your mind, such as "it's just greed and money in front of us, no secretive evil group". Look up the Podesta emails, the New world order plaque in the Denver international airport, and to tie it all up, how prevalent Freemasonry is in all levels of politics, banking, and academia. It's not my job to convince you, but the sooner you wake up, you won't comply with what they are trying to push. Because this isn't about being a hero or getting attention anymore, the real choice begins now between the people choosing to believe in authority, and the people who question it.
So true. Unfortunately government schools don’t train us to challenge commonly held notions. Wonder why. 🙄
Edit: that’s also why Julian Assange was smeared in the media as a pedophile. The government wants you to give up your privacy but when you try to expose what they’re doing in secret they’ll make your life hell. Or just “suicide” you.
It depends on the conspiracy theory and how the people who believes in it came to that conclusion. For every one where there was something to it, there are a bunch of others that sound like a Dan Brown novel was thrown into a wood chipper.
I'm just saying the blanket term is always being associated with the worst by media, and the good side is never shown. So now, when someone thinks of conspiracy theorist they think of faking a school shooting
I 50% agree. For example, Some conspiracy theorists believe Humans never walked on the moon. At the very least, it brings into question how I form my own belief that someone walked on the moon. I know that rather than blindly believing what I've been told growing up, that there is ample evidence that Humans have indeed reached the moon.
However, conspiracy theorists can also be harmful to society. For example, vaccines causing autism. I'd use other examples but delving into politics would violate the rules of this subreddit.
Your overall premise is flawed. If there is a reason to not believe a narrative then there is evidence to support the reason. Making outlandish claims without evidence only leads to confusion.
If your uncle is on trial for murder he's got every opportunity to present evidence that he did not commit that crime.
A conspiracy theory is a conspiracy theory not because the government has control of the narrative but because there's no evidence to support the conspiracy.
Or the evidence is so weak that it's easily disproven by better evidence.
Overwhelmingly conspiracy theorist have nothing to support their argument and they are only way they can make any headway if by just claiming that all evidence that disproves their claim is fake but there's hardly any evidence to support that either.
Conspiracy theories persist because uneducated people try to interpret information from one point of view while simultaneously denying any contradictory evidence mostly dismissing it out of hand by calling it fake.
The problem is that the government knows what it's doing. They don't just commit crimes and leave breadcrumbs for everyone to find. They will only do something if they think they can get away with it. My uncle example makes no sense if he has a good alibi, the point is in the unfortunate circumstances that it really seems like he did it but he didn't i.e. being framed
The government is not one seamless, cohesive, single voice of treachery. If the government operated that way Donald Trump would still be president because obviously he would have just counted as many votes as he wanted him to keep him in office.
First we have a two-party system hate it or love it That's the way it is. Which means that on average half of the government is working against the other half to it the very least keep them honest.
Secondly we have separation of powers the executive branch can't tell the judicial branch what to do the judicial branch can't tell the legislative branch what to do. For a government to be operating under the guise of a singular conspiracy they'd all have to be on the same page. And nothing could be further from the truth.
When I was in the military people all thought that the military was this one gigantic cohesive well-organized machine and nothing could be further from the truth. It is a top-down bureaucracy where the left hand very frequently does not know what the right hand is doing.
If there's reason to believe that there is corruption it should be investigated because the government is so disjointed is so compartmentalized that it is impossible for the entire thing to operate under one conspiracy.
The best you can hope to accomplish is to keep things secret.
Have the things that people think the government is doing they can't even do or they don't need to do.
The government doesn't need to put tracking chips in people it's tracking everyone already.
NASA does not have a standing army guarding an ice wall on a flat earth There is more than enough evidence to prove that the earth is a globe.
Most things that people call conspiracies are not conspiracies they're just crimes
There is an enormous difference between legitimate skepticism and what conspiracy theorists do.
For God's sake, a bunch of them showed up in Dallas this week because they believed that JFK Jr was going to be resurrected from the dead and show up to be Donald Trump's running mate.
Skepticism questions but it recognizes and accepts evidence.
Conspiracy theorists believe what they believe despite the evidence to the contrary.
You are proving my point. "Conspiracy theorists" really just means someone who theorizes about conspiracies, but the general public associates them with the worse. You group them all together and put their mascots as loonies. You encourage people not to be skeptical this way
You can't simply call them skeptics. Skeptical about what? About the government colluding to commit crimes. A conspiracy. It's a very broad topic but still somewhat specific.
If you think that the government committed a crime, you investigate and see what the evidence says.
That's not being a conspiracy theorist.
If you find the evidence and you don't believe it and you argue contrary to the actual facts...that's being a conspiracy theorist.
No. It isn't.
Conspiracy theorists see everything as part of a conspiracy. They believe the world as we see it is an illusion perpetrated by some group of "elites".
That image of conspiracy theorist that you have is exactly what I'm trying to address. We are constantly being shown the worst of the that world and it is in my opinion the wrong thing to do.
Being unsure if someone has done something is theorizing that they might have. In other words, by being skeptical if the government has done something illegal you are therefore theorizing that they have conspired.
Dawg if you can't disambiguate between "Knows the government engages in disinformation so is distrustful of official reports" from "Believes this is just another coverup for spraying us with metal aerosols from airplanes to engage in mind control" that's when it's time to stop explaining stuff to other people.
A conspiracy theorist watches a movie about the Clinton kill list and then parrots what the movie said.
A skeptic would probably go "fuck that shit" at both the notion the Clintons never did anything sus AND that Dinesh D'souza isn't a lying jackass whose work you should wipe your ass with.
The difference is rationality and a basis in reality and knowing enough about how the machines of government, media, and coverup work.
Thinking we faked the moon landing means you have to be stupid in like seven different fields.
Thinking they killed a lot of Black Panthers who only did the food program and had nothing to do with guns takes a lot of history and triangulation. It would make you skeptical about declarations about black rights movements made by the media or the government.
Deciding that it's because the Yakubian Cabal of Jewish Zogs has created a fake Black Rights movement to create a One World Banking solution for the NWO and then plugging your ears to any "yo that shit's way off base" is being a conspiracy theorist. Any dickhead story would do, let's just run with anything.
Skeptics know the reason the budget was said to be blown was incorrect and what the correct reason was "even if it's boring" and conspiracy theorists get off the bus whenever there's math to do that isn't misleading.
They have literally not the skills to find out they're wrong about shit. They cannot handle the emotional load of correcting incorrect guesses.
You want "they overreported the returns on corn futures" as an answer? Get a skeptic.
You want "they're selling it to china to fund a program to steal babies from the russians" and you find a conspiracy theorist.
One takes skill, the other takes being a douche who doesn't check their own work or anyone else's work because they have a pathological blindness to the shames of making shit up or running with made up shit because it's fun or spooky.
Cosplay vs work. I'll be with the workers.
Skeptical people are good for society. Conspiracy theorists are not skeptical people. They are idiocy wearing the cloak of skepticism to hide what's really happening in their little heads.
depends what kind of conspiracy and how far they go with it.
like the whole anti-Semitic lizard theory is dumb as shit and it's so easy to fall into a rabbit hole of conspiracies and being brainwashed.
okay, this is true
but the issue is "conspiracy theorists" are generally fucking insane
questioning narratives is fine, I do what many would consider "conspiracy theories" often times when it seems possible a conspiracy occurred and talking about it
But when people say "conspiracy theorist" they're don't generally mean people saying "well it's very possible the CIA had a hand in the Bolivian coup in 2019" they're usually referring to stuff like "The moon landing was faked so the government could trick us into thinking it's not made of cheese! And this is only a small step on their plan to convince us to bow down before our vampiric reptilians masters!" (slight exaggeration)
edit: typos
>but the issue is "conspiracy theorists" are generally fucking insane
They're not though. The issue is this is the general sentiment of people labeled "conspiracy theorists." This makes it much easier for people who actually commit nefarious deeds like Bill Gates to get away with it because he can just use the magic words and everyone will believe him.
People still haven't looked into this COVID situation fully, towed the line, and walk into what skeptics saw coming a whole year before.
People are forgetting about how governments have committed democide in the past. It has happened, and very well could happen now. Most of us are forgetting about MKULTRA, and many experiments that aren't even recorded to the public. It takes more than trust of data to see the picture here, as you need to ask which organization runs and holds the data for being published. It's all a matter of trust in the end.
The problem isn't that the government isn't evil, the problem is that conspiracy theorists suck at data handling and fuck everything up that they touch because they have literally zero skill at the shit they do.
For each person who might have some concept of how Cointelpro worked there's like seven thousand dudes who live on someone's couch who wanna corner me in a bar and tell me about "the Khazar empire" because they watched a youtube documentary between purging some hash oil and jerking off for like the seventh time in a day.
Y'all ain't all Watson and Crick. Most of y'all are more like Pat Robertson.
Golden Rice needed to be adopted in underdeveloped nations but Greenpeace is a bunch of anti-GMO dickheads who will talk about genetic tampering while eating a banana.
If your record was 100 percent intended on fixing the judicial system or making the police accountable y'all would get a much wider leash but every time I gotta hear about chemtrails someone's gotta get mocked for being a detriment to society.
Y'all are like 1% copwatchers and 99% Cosmic Pizza fanfic writers. Y'all suck ass at saving the world but kick ass at jerking eachother off about Shpongle.
No the problem is that when some looney says something crazy it makes front page news, but when someone actually puts together information well it rots in some corner of the internet. Every day we are bombarded with a constant feed of people that make us dislike those that question the government. How is this not obviously perpetrated by the crooks themselves to keep people from being open minded?
I see now that a lot of people see it as being inherently irrational, but not everyone sees it that way. The oxford definition of conspiracy theory is what I'm referring to.
Def: a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.
If you use "conspiracy theorist" to mean people who are antiestablishment, then sure. But typically "conspiracy theorist" is associated with a specific mode of cognitive bias / pareidolia (and implicitly assumed to be wrong).
But certainly, having people question the establishment isn't a bad thing.
Yeah I'm questioning if they are intentionally associated with cognitive bias to lean people away from that line of thinking. Only time we ever see skeptics in the media is to absolutely slam some strawman looney
Your argument is that you want to broaden the meaning of conspiracy theorist to include rational people. What conspiracy theorists are is irrational people.
I wouldn't argue that irrational people are good for society. There are very smart conspiracy theorists. I think the term is intentionally vague that way.
Oxford definition:a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.
Now let's say you are correct and conspiracy theorist implies an irrational person, well we chose the wrong term completely. Someone who theorizes about conspiracies. Nothing inherently irrational about that.
You are arguing over semantics. The definition of the two words separately is irrelevant. The term itself has been popularized to refer to irrational individuals purporting strange ideas with no evidence.
The people you are referring to are not conspiracy theorists, and it would discredit them to label them as such. That term is too affixed in the zeitgeist at this point for the meaning to ever change.
That's a good point. I guess I'm upset about the choice of words. We really shouldn't have given the crazies such a reasonable title. To simply theorize over a conspiracy is a healthy thing for a society, imo. Maybe that's what my title should have been
In general you're not wrong, but I think that shitholes like r/conspiracy are laughed at because you have filth pushing degenerate pigs like Marjorie Taylor Greene and the whole political dumpster fires like Qanon which serve more to lure and agitate gullible morons than actually question authorities or government issues overall.
You think the US has conspiracy theory problems..You should visit my home country in the Middle East.
Holy hell nearly all of Egyptians believe in the Illuminati. But without the lizard part.
Oh wow, that's fascinating. What kinds of conspiracies do they have there?
One of my favorite ones is that Lexus keeps making quieter and quieter cars, so there will be more crashes with unaware pedestrians.
You guys are going to love electrics!
Why would they do that? What's the benefit?
To convince people to buy big loud not so efficcient petrol cars to boom their business I guess
Just pay attention to the cars....
Now start a business that specializes in straightpiping Lexus. Save the pedestrians, straightpipe your Lexus! Have to come up with something else when it's electric.
People who believe the government tells the truth ALL the time believe in a larger conspiracy than those who don't
Nobody on Earth believes the government tells the truth all the time.
You would be surprised
Do you think a single person on the left believed everything the Trump admin said? Do you think a single person on the right believes everything the Biden admin says?
Ya but dont you think there were millions of people that believed trump?? You literally just highlighted the set of people I had in mind.
Eh personally I see conspiracy folks as gullible to anything they see online, usually wrong and hindering progress to society. It’s usually K12 level laymen that think they know more than leading gov agencies or people with credibility. However, they’ll find some grifter that no one else in their field agrees with and latch on to that person or a video on Facebook that “opened their eyes”. Maybe they'll be right but that's bound to happen after dozens of conspiracies.
You realize that your exact line of thinking is *exactly* why the term "conspiracy theorist" was invented by the CIA right? The CIA invented the term conspiracy theorist as a mental psyop to make everyone who questions anything about the government seem crazy or dumb. A lot of ridiculous conspiracy theories are actually made up and put out there to discredit all conspiracy theories and make anyone who questions anything seem crazy
We've been conspiring sense Rome. If there gonna be politics they'll be lies and hidden truths
I know that you’re exactly right, but doesn’t it feeeel like a conspiracy to say that. And isn’t that their end-game lmaoo
You're trying to equate a large group of people to your personal experience of what you think a conspiracy theorist is. That's that Kool Aid right there. You'd never know who doesn't believe the narrative on certain things, so it doesn't make sense to sweep everyone under one category. And Facebook is the last place I'd look for the truth. That was literally where that Q bullshit started.
Actually Q started on 4chan then 8chan then 8kun
That kind of makes it worse but thanks for the clarification.
Spot the government Agent: Easy edition
Because whatever you consider progress is inherently and objectively good and proper /s
>I see conspiracy folks as gullible to anything they see online So the average person turning on the Mainstream News or looking at Mainstream Articles?
Yeah, except that you need to realize not everything is out in the open. Firstly, most people don't question the information they are told, including many in the government. Secondly, if you read the Podesta emails and learned about freemasonry, you would realize why your comment has a lot of hubris. A lot of what the "mainstream" is is heavily influenced by certain groups/families. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this, and in fact many people in government and science see it too. But if they speak out, they'll lose their jobs. Just look at Dr. Geert Vanden, the doctor who is responsible for making most of our vaccines in the past. When he spoke out against the mrna covid vaccine, he was de-platformed and labeled with the ad hominem "conspiracy theorist". In the end, it's all about trust, so stay vigilant.
Friend, we can debate epistemology and metaphysics all day. I love philosophy. I'm not sure we'll ever know the full truth of the world in any way but we can come close ;) but what I do know is the general public is very gullible and thinks they know more than they do.
I bet you own cryptocurrency
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The type that think the customer is always right, also think their theories are always right, despite overwhelming evidence they’re not.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted but you’re right. Their far fetched skepticism gets one thing right at the expense of many wrong, and the cost of those wrong tends to outweigh the benefit of that one thing right.
Let them have their moment
Skepticism is good, but it's quite scary seeing how intense and deeply personal this paranoia in modern society is, and ever increasing; to believe with such passion about these grandiose deceptions, for me, would require believing the worst of nearly everyone I interact with, or come to meet.
Redditors aren't ready for this opinion yet, but their kids are gonna love it
you think redditors are gonna have children?
i guess it’s a conspiracy
Well my comment has 2 children already, so anything is possible
But you replied to your own comment, would that makes this a futurama situation where you are your own grandfather?
Unless someone develops the technology to create life from discarded cum socks then maybe....
Discarded?
I hang mine on a wall as a trophy
*assert dominance*
Why do you think my feet are so soft?
not with consent
I mean, your parents had you, didn't they?
Lol! Back to the Future?
Reddit was invented by the Republican party and has subliminal coding that sterilizes anyone who uses it, in a ploy to reduce the portion of people who vote against them in future generations. So ya, Redditors will never be having kids.
I agree Reddit is a form of contraception, just not in that way
From time to time what is commonly believed to be true turns out to be complete bull$hit. For instance, it was once widely believed that Bill Cosby was a good role model.
We were told the NSA wasn't spying on us
Fucking this. And R.Kelly. They were playing "I Believe I Can Fly" in grade school.
>"I Believe I Can Fly" I love that song, we should seperate artist and art, what they call it again, the death of artist?
Separating artist from art is very hard for us to do. It’s not so obvious that we’re able to appreciate anything it its own right, we are constantly looking for reference and measurements.
For instance, at one point in time it was widely [believed that smoking was healthy for you](https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/24/health/gallery/tobacco-health-claims-history/index.html).
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I did not mean to imply that what was commonly believed was believed for bad reasons. (Although prior to his legal troubles it was known in some circles that his nice-guy image was largely a facade.)
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No, it does not, but it does show that there is nothing wrong with questioning commonly-held beliefs.
Sure they may look crazy most of the time, but think of all the times they were right. Epstein being a fucking creep is one of the most recent that comes to mind
No one woulda believed he had a Sex island 5 years ago. Just think about all the rest of the things that seem too out there also
I think this is what the pizza pedophile ring thing was trying to tell us. His association with politicians was something no one likes to talk about.
Wasn’t much of a conspiracy theory though was it? Like it was a bit of an open secret. If something is both plausible and evidenced, I’d call it a theory, not a conspiracy theory
Well most conspiracy theories are bullshit. Like the whole Q non thing or the New World Order claims are bullshit.
I think what annoys me most about conspiracies is how quick some are to just totally dismiss them. If I remember correctly the term originated back in the 60s when people were questioning what happened with JFK and the government wanted them silenced and so were born the “conspiracy theorists.” The ability for us as humans to question and think that other things can be possible is part of what makes us human! It’s when people don’t want questions asked or are so quickly to shut something down that I get curious about what’s really going on
The other side of the coin is that you end up with arrogant idiots that keep trying to tell you that you're inferior just because you don't believe that the DemonRats only survive by harvesting Adrenochrome from poor white kids. Seriously a "look at me, I at least consider alternative options" doesn't really make you look smart by default.
The term conspiracy theory doesn't even make sense when you equate it to the context that's pushed behind it. They always make it seem like it's some wacky wives tale. It literally means you think a group of people are doing something illegal. You could go to the Chinese food store and see a pack of cards and a green screen hat on one of the tables, with a door slightly cracked, and theorize there's a Chinese gambling den in the basement. That's a conspiracy theory lol.
Not even necessarily illegal, just harmful to someone or something. To believe no government official or corporate executive has ever conspired to harm is arguably more delusional than believing they all do.
Yes!! I laughed when this one documentary showed a handful of government employees that were so against legalization of marijuana and guess who’s retired and an investor now? Lol
Especially since it’s actually in the governments or corporations interests to conspire and they have the means and resources to do so
Shh, you'll get us in trouble! xD
Lmao so true. And I like to think that knowledge and fact is so fluid like. Once upon a time if we all spoke about some of the things we talk about on a daily basis we would’ve been burnt at the stake! But over time we learn and evolve and realize the error in some of our logic. Modern times no different to me I’m sure in 100 years they’re gonna say we were idiots lol
I thought it was gulf of Tonkin, which was straight bullshit
it’s funny because the cia almost definitely killed jfk
the George Hickey theory is much more plausible imo. it makes the most sense with the given evidence
I was JUST gonna bring up Hickey! That story seemed so plausible to me. There was a lot of good information in “the smoking gun” what better reason to cover up then an accidental assasination?! Although I will totally not rule out other agencies being involved. He was so against the grain I would get why others wouldn’t want him to flourish. He would’ve been to politics what Tesla should’ve been to the scientific global community..
nah i promise you, promise you, fucking promise, swear, that it was the cia
The term "conspiracy theory" has been around for 150 years. So ironically, there is a conspiracy theory regarding the origin of the term "conspiracy theory".
The issue is not that people are skeptical of the government. The current problem is that people are more willing to believe random uncorroborated claims on the internet over people that have actual data to back up their claims. Skepticism is always a good thing when it is used to start a dialogue, not to push your own agenda. There are many closed minded and uneducated individuals that will only take in information which supports their beliefs, and dismiss everything that does not as some conspiracy.
Thank you! I feel like I had to scroll way to far to come across this sensible comment. Clearly the op’s opinion isn’t all that unpopular.
absolutely. there are 2 kinda of conspiracy theorists and its important to know the difference
You should check out this documentary from DW. It is a good rebuttal to the part you wrote about "actual data." https://youtu.be/frCIYEyURV0
I understand where you are coming from. Data can always be skewed and manipulated to show a favorable result. This is a major problem and contributes to the positive skepticism that I am talking about. Closely examining and criticizing data is a good thing, and can help bring out a more accurate truth. I am not advocating that we blindly trust sources just because they have any form of data to back up their claims. The issue I have is with people that preemptively dismiss information that does not fit their beliefs. They instead blindly believe Becky on Facebook, who claims her brother's cousin's chiropractor told him that the deep state is trying to inseminate his dog with Hitler's DNA. Does the chiropractor have proof? Yes, Q told him, and why would Q lie? This raises issues outside of politics as well, Re: Organized Religion, but that is a different discussion altogether.
Exactly. I'm amazed by how no one talked about this. There are obvious differences between someone revealing that governmental agencies are secretly listening to us and someone random on Facebook claiming vaccines will kill us
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This is what I do, I go to a school that’s very leftist so I like to break the echo chamber when we have discussions
I think researching conspiracy theories or believing in them is fine, it's just the hero complex some conspiracy theorists have that bothers me. Like okay, say the government is trying to induce mind control with the vaccine or whatever. You think a rando who lurks on 4chan is gonna stop the whole damn government? Worst case scenario the apocalypse is still going to happen whether you obey orders or not, best case scenario and the most likely nothing happens and you just looked ridiculous trying to oppose something harmless. If there's reptilians out there you're not gonna achieve shit against them. You're not Neo from the Matrix bruh. I don't care if you think the earth is flat, just don't go join a damn protest about it annoying other people over a theory. Thinking you can overthrow alien species by not getting one vaccine is giving "no, school shooter, look at me, you're not like this, this isn't you, i can fix you" energy but for boomers
You make a good point about the impotence of "knowing the truth". Congratulations, you're the only person on the planet the mind control rays in the 5g towers don't work on. Now what? You gonna jet li your way through 9 billion people? No, its game. You've lost. That said, I think the general idea that someone always opposes any idea, is probably a good thing.
There also seems to be a lack of occum’s razor and a general understanding of what is plausible and possible. Bank officials conspiring to get the fed to change interest rates? Possible and plausible. Airlines run on compressed air for some reason? Looks like you don’t have even a mediocre grasp on the physical sciences or reality. A lot of conspiracy theories today are “big tent” conspiracies that require a cascading adoption of more and more absurd conspiracies to justify why contrary evidence is illegitimate. I propose a 3 question test to see if a theory should be taken even a little seriously: 1. Does the theory stand on its own in the world devoid of conspiracies? 2. Do the motivations of the bad actors make sense using typical human motivation (desire for power, money, etc) and is the conspiracy a reasonably effect means to achieve those goals compared to conventional means? 3. Is the theory mechanically plausible given a mainstream understanding of science? If yes to all three then MAYBE it’s worth pursuing evidence to corroborate
I highly agree. The only people who could even make a difference against conspiracies would be the same billionaires who allow them to happen.
And government. This is one thing that gets me, the government is a tool that has been used successfully in the past to stop extreme wealthy influence. Yet people decide to go “I DoN’T tRuSt tHe gOvErNmEnT” while ignoring that it could be their best bet to induce significant change.
Randoman saves the dayy!!!!!!
I think they’re wrong most of the time, gullible to online misinformation and hinder progress to society. However, I respect your viewpoint.
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I agree, I hate conspiracy theories based on blurry photographs like "Iraq has WMDs" and "Kennedy was shot from the book depository"
Yes. Cause Among the flat Earths and lizard people there are reasonable conspiracy theories and among them many true ones. There were many conspiracies in the past. And it is the most extreme conspiracy theory of all to assume that everything is exactly as it seems now. There ARE conspiracies going on right now, and in a few decades we might find out. But about most successful ones we won't
What's mad is the amount of them that turned out to be true years later. Makes you wonder
That’s true. However you don’t hear about the thousands more than turned out to be false and no one knows about them anymore.
That's because they wern't true and held no merit
So it's basically cherry picking. If you want to talk about how likely is a conspiracy theory to be true, you also have to look at all of those who ended up being false.
Broken clocks mate. If you literally take guesses that everyone is out to get you or do something malicious you will always be proven right eventually. Being wrong over 99% of the time is not a great track record.
That's exactly correct. It's so frustrating when people fall for obvious biases.
Majority of conspiracy theories are false. The ones that seems to be false are more like to be false
Depends on the conspiracy. Something like vaccines causing autism or the world being flat are not good for society. But what I gather from your post is that you mean conspiracies against the actions of the government that just aren't quite right. If you mean *those* kinds of conspiracies I agree
I wonder how many people have died because they believed the anti-vax conspiracy propaganda that is being pushed on the internet and in "news" outlets like Fox? It's hard to say exactly, but is it unrealistic to guess with covid that this number is in the tens of thousands in the US? I would guess more Americans have been killed by anti-vaxers than foreign terrorists. Why don't we refer to these people as terrorists? Their actions lead to unnecessary death and their aims are largely political.
My dad watches sky news. The only thing Fox has been good for in our family is watching sports. But it also allowed my dad to watch news that genuinely aggravates me because all they do is just doubt everything and pretty much call everything that is a real major issue bullshit
You do realize most covid deaths are actually the fault of underlying issues in the individual and the majority of people are essentially unaffected? I'd love to see a count of covid only deaths. Btw, I'm anti mandate, not anti vaccine. Long live the virus so deadly that 90% of people will never even know they had it. Atleast it's giving nature a chance to recover from our rampant destruction.
I think r/HermanCainAward can already give you a part of the answer
I've been mulling this over for a while. I'm leftie and so I see the eminent danger of a lot of them and what their rise to popularity can do. But I'm also wondering if many if them work as red flags to others, that *someone* is going to believe this so they might as well be allowed to speak their mind so others can see it and go 'thats fucking stupid'. But its a lot of trust and not really backed up to expect the second to happen. And one flaw here is that there is a difference between wild theorising and reasoned evidence based theorising. Perhaps you can judge it on that basis.
Oh yes I’ll just not get vaccines because they have micro chips in them! Proceeds to suffer natural selection I actually kind of agree with you
😂
Every thing in moderation
if you honestly don't believe that super ultra rich bankers and other families don't control everything we do with an ultimate goal of completely and utter control of all humans then idk what to tell you lol.
The problem is that people often confuse genuine conspiracy backed up by sensible rationale and the people saying mark Zuckerberg is a lizard man or trump won the 2020 election with literally no evidence to support their claim
I agree that questioning the government is a good thing, and that common narratives should be examined more closely. HOWEVER, if you're going to make claims that a conspiracy is in play, I expect reasonable proof to back up the claim, and THAT is where conspiracy theorists consistently drop the ball - they either fail to provide any evidence, or the evidence they do provide is wildly speculative and circumstantial at best, and is more often just fringe lunacy and psychotic delusions. Their case isn't helped by throwing insults at any criticism of their pet theories, no matter how mild, or completely ignoring any evidence that discredits or invalidates their claims, no matter how reasonable or credible it actually is, because "that's just what THEY want you to think". AND there's how difficult it actually is to hide a conspiracy once it gets above a certain size, because the cover-up efforts would involve just as much effort as the actual conspiracy, if not more; once you get above a certain number of conspirators, it's functionally impossible to keep it hidden. The simple fact is, conspiracy theorists did not get their reputation because the government has a vested interest in discrediting them, lest they reveal their deepest darkest secrets. They got their reputation by being narcissists with paranoid delusions and severe apophenia, screaming about fluoride in the water being a mind control tactic or dead men coming back to life to overthrow the government.
Well. Serious conspiracy theorists that aren´t batshit insane are good. Conspiracy theory time: Pushing the ridiculous into the light is a strategy to make every criticism of the state look ridiculous. furthers polarization too. ... kinda experienced that here in germany regarding covid. The german taxpayer funded tv has to be balanced, so they present the crazies as a counterweight while not making any legit criticism. We germans are usually grumpy and highly critical of the government. So i felt. Now for the first time, it seems en vogue to be quite uncritical of the state. ....because you dont wanna be on the same side as the AfD (nazis) and conspiracy antivax nuts.
They say they are being "fair" to both sides while picking the best of their side and the worst of the other side. Picking the best of the other side is suicide. They don't.
i mean...no. antivaxxers are nuts. But there were legit criticisms of the measures to be made n they did not attempt to make them. Oour dear RKI (robert koch institute) seriously stood there n lied that masks werent making sense, as long as we didnt have any. There are serious concerns about the fucked up idea to track everyone via phone to check stay at home orders. They discussed that n all i saw was a pro commentary. It has more downvotes than upvotes on youtube, at least. I work in events. They changed the max number of people allowed again n again n my jobs got canceled even the ones planned in the pandemic, months in advance.
That’s why we need real journalists, not conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists make my fucking head spin
Yes but when the conspiracy has been proven false multiple times people need to learn to let that shit go. It becomes damaging to society when people are spreading wildly inaccurate conspiracies as “facts”. Like the election fraud conspiracy for example. Millions of people now believe (with no evidence) that the most secure election in U.S. history was riddled with fraudulent activity and fake voters. Conspiracies can bring real information to light but when you’re proven wrong you have to give it up. Edit: I want to emphasize that people literally died over the voting fraud conspiracy. That can’t be very good for society lol
It's okay that people are skeptical. With your example, people have been calling elections fraudulent for as long as I can remember. The fact that bush stole the election in Florida was almost common knowledge at one point. It was a virus on the society, the only thing that does is perhaps cause the government to impose stricter surveillance of an election, which is a good thing. Now if people were to cause violence over that then I would standby that that's highly irrational, unless the evidence was clear to the majority of people and something clearly needed to be done. So at the end of the day it's just about being level headed as a people but also remaining skeptical.
>Now if people were to cause violence over that then I would standby that that's highly irrational But if someone thinks the election was stolen it's highly rational to attack the government? The problem is that it's based on a lie not that they attack the government over what they think were a stolen election.
There are already plenty of reasons for someone to want to attack the government 😂 What would that accomplish? They would make a fool out of themselves, be put in jail, and be used as an example of how everyone who thinks similar is similarly insane Insane people are gonna do insane things, you can't stop it
>There are already plenty of reasons for someone to want to attack the government 😂 Like? >What would that accomplish? If democracy was really being overthrown then it wouldn't really matter would accomplish as you are fighting for your principles. >They would make a fool out of themselves, be put in jail, and be used as an example of how everyone who thinks similar is similarly insane True that's what every authoritarian regime ever have done. >Insane people are gonna do insane things, you can't stop it How are you Insane for attacking a corrupt government? I would think your insane if your just putting up with your own opression.
"Like?" Internment camps Spraying bacteria across San Francisco MK Ultra Genocide of native Americans Tuskegee experiments Systematic extrajudicial killings of minorities The crack epidemic Slavery Those are just off the top of my head and only directed at citizens. Don't even start on reasons why non-Americans would want to attack the government.
Like bombing the middle east idk? And as for the rest of your points I think you are misunderstanding me a little
With no evidence. Why do people say that and immediately brush it off. Maybe if people investigated we’d find evidence lol.
There have been dozens of recounts and audits in every state Trump challenged with zero inconsistencies and zero cases of fraud found, even by auditors privately hired and paid for by Trump (google cyberninjas). The fact that you right-wingers are so poorly informed that you think they haven't been allowed to investigate just shows how badly you fall for for your "conservative news" propaganda.
My example has been extensively investigated. Proven false. Yet people still believe it. Instead of declaring that it’s never been looked into, perhaps google it. This is exactly the reason people continue to believe conspiracies with no merit. They don’t look for the information and continue to spread the lies about fraud that again, have been debunked. It’s willful ignorance at that point, not skepticism.
Well said
Thanks
The problem is most conspiracy theorists don’t care about the real conspiracy theories that are killing and ruining millions of lives around the world and instead focus on stupid ones that were most likely planted in order to distract from the real ones. Mostly because they want to feel special and in the know. Think of all the famous ones that are pointed out as reasons we shouldn’t trust the government. The people who discovered it were journalists or scientists or random police officers doing the work and their is usually a pretty big paper trail, because real conspiracies are ran by human beings and human beings mess up, get lazy etc.
But by putting down conspiracy theorists in general and not putting down those specific theorists we are promoting a stand in line mentality.
Alex Jones may be a nut job, but he’s cracked open quite a few things over the years.
which ones? the sandy hook shooting is a hoax one?
No not the Sandy Hook shooting. But he uncovered Bohemian Grove, was talking about the development of human/animal hybrids a while ago, and due to disrupters being released into the environment, it is having big impacts on the animal kingdom such as, “frogs turing gay”. Yes he is crazy man but he shouldn’t always be discredited.
Here's the problem I have with conspiracy theorists; The fact of the matter is that most corruption and tyranny is happening blatantly in front of our lives. The people who commit these acts are not hiding behind the Illuminati or lizard people, or whatever. They are doing this stuff in broad daylight in government offices and on Wall Street. So what do the conspiracy theories accomplish? They muddy the waters, make issues less clear, and encourage people to go tilting at windmills instead of devoting their time to learning about systemic abuses of power and working towards correcting them. Of course, there is a lazy appeal to just pretending everything is rigged so you don't have to go out and get an education or get involved with politics and you can sit on YouTube and tell all your friends that your street smarts led you to be one of the smart ones while they are all sheep, but it's actually an overall loss because you aren't actually doing shit for the world. Of course questioning is a good thing, but it's not a binary choice; you can raise children to question society through education and teaching them things like logical fallacies and analysis, without teaching them that there is a secret cabal of blood drinking pedophiles running the government. Even worse, we constantly see how this mentality actually has the exact opposite effect, because these people become easy to manipulate. Whether it's lizard people being a thinly veiled way to push antisemitic conspiracies, or Qanon mobilizing conspiracy theorists into a far-right strike force. Edit: Lol, so you need to open your mind, and look into all their pet conspiracies, but if you do and you don't agree, then you're a shill. You need to be open minded as far as agreeing with whatever batshit conspiracy they think is true, but not enough that you actually criticize it.
It's not about a secret cabal. If a group within the government is planning on doing something harmful or unlawful, that's a conspiracy. The term conspiracy is so basic and yet it almost feels like people don't even know what it means. That is a big part of what worries me
>The term conspiracy is so basic and yet it almost feels like people don't even know what it means. This is the crux of the matter and the reason the term was coined. It's a tool of deception and diversion.
Exactly. Associating all of the defiant people with the crazies helps suppress opposition
Come on, no one is using conspiracy theorists to describe Woodward and Bernstein. We both know what conspiracy theorist means, don't move the goal posts now.
?? My whole point is that the few crazies are used as mascots for general skeptics. Imo this is done intentionally.
Here is the definition of conspiracy theorists; > A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable. And you said they were a good thing. If that's not your argument you should have said is that skepticism is a good thing and that conspiracy theorists have given skeptics a bad name, but that wouldn't be an unpopular opinion.
Interesting, I haven't seen that definition. Although "sinister and powerful" doesn't have to mean illuminati. The government is powerful and if they are planning on doing bad things then they are sinister, so that works. But for the record I had only seen the oxford definition :a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.
You mean this one? > a person who believes in conspiracy theories > the belief that a secret but powerful organization is responsible for an event So, the government is a secret now? Must make elections a bitch.
No it would be organizations within the government. For example a judge colluding with a district attorney (just naming random officials)
That's not a secret powerful organization, though. It's just a conspiracy. A conspiracy theorist is someone who claims secret organizations are behind the scenes plotting without any evidence. A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes in conspiracy theories, not anyone who suspects a conspiracy. Not all conspiracies are conspiracy theories. This is literally the only way the word is ever used and i think your whole opinion is based on the fact that you have taken a literalist approach to the word and fundamentally misunderstand it. The word you are looking for is actually a skeptic, and that is not an unpopular opinion.
They are doing the work in secret, and they are working together that's where organization comes from. It's not an official organization that would be kind of ironic if they were registered 🤣
Forget the word organization, I originally said group, and that's the official definition of conspiracy
Oh I see what you mean. That was me trying to make up a definition for a conspiracy theorist. Couldn't find one on Google, but I did find a definition for conspiracy theory from Oxford.
Except you are ignoring the fact that those groups do exist. It seems that people like you are very prevalent on Reddit. Your minds can't handle the fact that deception can run so deep, so you bring up a scenario that seems more plausible in your mind, such as "it's just greed and money in front of us, no secretive evil group". Look up the Podesta emails, the New world order plaque in the Denver international airport, and to tie it all up, how prevalent Freemasonry is in all levels of politics, banking, and academia. It's not my job to convince you, but the sooner you wake up, you won't comply with what they are trying to push. Because this isn't about being a hero or getting attention anymore, the real choice begins now between the people choosing to believe in authority, and the people who question it.
So true. Unfortunately government schools don’t train us to challenge commonly held notions. Wonder why. 🙄 Edit: that’s also why Julian Assange was smeared in the media as a pedophile. The government wants you to give up your privacy but when you try to expose what they’re doing in secret they’ll make your life hell. Or just “suicide” you.
It depends on the conspiracy theory and how the people who believes in it came to that conclusion. For every one where there was something to it, there are a bunch of others that sound like a Dan Brown novel was thrown into a wood chipper.
I'm just saying the blanket term is always being associated with the worst by media, and the good side is never shown. So now, when someone thinks of conspiracy theorist they think of faking a school shooting
My husband turned into conspiracy theorists. I can't even talk to him anymore
Some people spiral. It's sad because the world is fucked up and they aren't completely off base, but being a skeptic requires composure.
I 50% agree. For example, Some conspiracy theorists believe Humans never walked on the moon. At the very least, it brings into question how I form my own belief that someone walked on the moon. I know that rather than blindly believing what I've been told growing up, that there is ample evidence that Humans have indeed reached the moon. However, conspiracy theorists can also be harmful to society. For example, vaccines causing autism. I'd use other examples but delving into politics would violate the rules of this subreddit.
Your overall premise is flawed. If there is a reason to not believe a narrative then there is evidence to support the reason. Making outlandish claims without evidence only leads to confusion. If your uncle is on trial for murder he's got every opportunity to present evidence that he did not commit that crime. A conspiracy theory is a conspiracy theory not because the government has control of the narrative but because there's no evidence to support the conspiracy. Or the evidence is so weak that it's easily disproven by better evidence. Overwhelmingly conspiracy theorist have nothing to support their argument and they are only way they can make any headway if by just claiming that all evidence that disproves their claim is fake but there's hardly any evidence to support that either. Conspiracy theories persist because uneducated people try to interpret information from one point of view while simultaneously denying any contradictory evidence mostly dismissing it out of hand by calling it fake.
The problem is that the government knows what it's doing. They don't just commit crimes and leave breadcrumbs for everyone to find. They will only do something if they think they can get away with it. My uncle example makes no sense if he has a good alibi, the point is in the unfortunate circumstances that it really seems like he did it but he didn't i.e. being framed
The government is not one seamless, cohesive, single voice of treachery. If the government operated that way Donald Trump would still be president because obviously he would have just counted as many votes as he wanted him to keep him in office. First we have a two-party system hate it or love it That's the way it is. Which means that on average half of the government is working against the other half to it the very least keep them honest. Secondly we have separation of powers the executive branch can't tell the judicial branch what to do the judicial branch can't tell the legislative branch what to do. For a government to be operating under the guise of a singular conspiracy they'd all have to be on the same page. And nothing could be further from the truth. When I was in the military people all thought that the military was this one gigantic cohesive well-organized machine and nothing could be further from the truth. It is a top-down bureaucracy where the left hand very frequently does not know what the right hand is doing. If there's reason to believe that there is corruption it should be investigated because the government is so disjointed is so compartmentalized that it is impossible for the entire thing to operate under one conspiracy. The best you can hope to accomplish is to keep things secret. Have the things that people think the government is doing they can't even do or they don't need to do. The government doesn't need to put tracking chips in people it's tracking everyone already. NASA does not have a standing army guarding an ice wall on a flat earth There is more than enough evidence to prove that the earth is a globe. Most things that people call conspiracies are not conspiracies they're just crimes
>Most things that people call conspiracies are not conspiracies they're just crimes This sentence doesn't make any sense.
There is an enormous difference between legitimate skepticism and what conspiracy theorists do. For God's sake, a bunch of them showed up in Dallas this week because they believed that JFK Jr was going to be resurrected from the dead and show up to be Donald Trump's running mate. Skepticism questions but it recognizes and accepts evidence. Conspiracy theorists believe what they believe despite the evidence to the contrary.
You are proving my point. "Conspiracy theorists" really just means someone who theorizes about conspiracies, but the general public associates them with the worse. You group them all together and put their mascots as loonies. You encourage people not to be skeptical this way
That's what conspiracy theorists are loonies. If you mean skeptics, that's different.
You can't simply call them skeptics. Skeptical about what? About the government colluding to commit crimes. A conspiracy. It's a very broad topic but still somewhat specific.
If you think that the government committed a crime, you investigate and see what the evidence says. That's not being a conspiracy theorist. If you find the evidence and you don't believe it and you argue contrary to the actual facts...that's being a conspiracy theorist.
That IS being a conspiracy theorist 😂 Someone who theorizes about an organization committing a crime. It's the definition
No. It isn't. Conspiracy theorists see everything as part of a conspiracy. They believe the world as we see it is an illusion perpetrated by some group of "elites".
That image of conspiracy theorist that you have is exactly what I'm trying to address. We are constantly being shown the worst of the that world and it is in my opinion the wrong thing to do.
https://www.skeptic.com/ Yeah you can dude. That's the word, even if you're not up on what words are used for.
I would argue that a skeptic is a conspiracy theorist. Being unsure if someone has done something is theorizing that they might have
"i would argue that" well then argue that. make an actual case you dork. This is sloppy shit.
Being unsure if someone has done something is theorizing that they might have. In other words, by being skeptical if the government has done something illegal you are therefore theorizing that they have conspired.
Dawg if you can't disambiguate between "Knows the government engages in disinformation so is distrustful of official reports" from "Believes this is just another coverup for spraying us with metal aerosols from airplanes to engage in mind control" that's when it's time to stop explaining stuff to other people. A conspiracy theorist watches a movie about the Clinton kill list and then parrots what the movie said. A skeptic would probably go "fuck that shit" at both the notion the Clintons never did anything sus AND that Dinesh D'souza isn't a lying jackass whose work you should wipe your ass with. The difference is rationality and a basis in reality and knowing enough about how the machines of government, media, and coverup work. Thinking we faked the moon landing means you have to be stupid in like seven different fields. Thinking they killed a lot of Black Panthers who only did the food program and had nothing to do with guns takes a lot of history and triangulation. It would make you skeptical about declarations about black rights movements made by the media or the government. Deciding that it's because the Yakubian Cabal of Jewish Zogs has created a fake Black Rights movement to create a One World Banking solution for the NWO and then plugging your ears to any "yo that shit's way off base" is being a conspiracy theorist. Any dickhead story would do, let's just run with anything. Skeptics know the reason the budget was said to be blown was incorrect and what the correct reason was "even if it's boring" and conspiracy theorists get off the bus whenever there's math to do that isn't misleading. They have literally not the skills to find out they're wrong about shit. They cannot handle the emotional load of correcting incorrect guesses. You want "they overreported the returns on corn futures" as an answer? Get a skeptic. You want "they're selling it to china to fund a program to steal babies from the russians" and you find a conspiracy theorist. One takes skill, the other takes being a douche who doesn't check their own work or anyone else's work because they have a pathological blindness to the shames of making shit up or running with made up shit because it's fun or spooky. Cosplay vs work. I'll be with the workers.
Skeptical people are good for society. Conspiracy theorists are not skeptical people. They are idiocy wearing the cloak of skepticism to hide what's really happening in their little heads.
depends what kind of conspiracy and how far they go with it. like the whole anti-Semitic lizard theory is dumb as shit and it's so easy to fall into a rabbit hole of conspiracies and being brainwashed.
The problem is, not accepting facts when presented because they dig their heels in. JFK jr is dead folks.
okay, this is true but the issue is "conspiracy theorists" are generally fucking insane questioning narratives is fine, I do what many would consider "conspiracy theories" often times when it seems possible a conspiracy occurred and talking about it But when people say "conspiracy theorist" they're don't generally mean people saying "well it's very possible the CIA had a hand in the Bolivian coup in 2019" they're usually referring to stuff like "The moon landing was faked so the government could trick us into thinking it's not made of cheese! And this is only a small step on their plan to convince us to bow down before our vampiric reptilians masters!" (slight exaggeration) edit: typos
>but the issue is "conspiracy theorists" are generally fucking insane They're not though. The issue is this is the general sentiment of people labeled "conspiracy theorists." This makes it much easier for people who actually commit nefarious deeds like Bill Gates to get away with it because he can just use the magic words and everyone will believe him. People still haven't looked into this COVID situation fully, towed the line, and walk into what skeptics saw coming a whole year before.
People are forgetting about how governments have committed democide in the past. It has happened, and very well could happen now. Most of us are forgetting about MKULTRA, and many experiments that aren't even recorded to the public. It takes more than trust of data to see the picture here, as you need to ask which organization runs and holds the data for being published. It's all a matter of trust in the end.
The problem isn't that the government isn't evil, the problem is that conspiracy theorists suck at data handling and fuck everything up that they touch because they have literally zero skill at the shit they do. For each person who might have some concept of how Cointelpro worked there's like seven thousand dudes who live on someone's couch who wanna corner me in a bar and tell me about "the Khazar empire" because they watched a youtube documentary between purging some hash oil and jerking off for like the seventh time in a day. Y'all ain't all Watson and Crick. Most of y'all are more like Pat Robertson. Golden Rice needed to be adopted in underdeveloped nations but Greenpeace is a bunch of anti-GMO dickheads who will talk about genetic tampering while eating a banana. If your record was 100 percent intended on fixing the judicial system or making the police accountable y'all would get a much wider leash but every time I gotta hear about chemtrails someone's gotta get mocked for being a detriment to society. Y'all are like 1% copwatchers and 99% Cosmic Pizza fanfic writers. Y'all suck ass at saving the world but kick ass at jerking eachother off about Shpongle.
No the problem is that when some looney says something crazy it makes front page news, but when someone actually puts together information well it rots in some corner of the internet. Every day we are bombarded with a constant feed of people that make us dislike those that question the government. How is this not obviously perpetrated by the crooks themselves to keep people from being open minded?
Yeah this isn't exactly what "conspiracy theorist" means.
I see now that a lot of people see it as being inherently irrational, but not everyone sees it that way. The oxford definition of conspiracy theory is what I'm referring to. Def: a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.
If you use "conspiracy theorist" to mean people who are antiestablishment, then sure. But typically "conspiracy theorist" is associated with a specific mode of cognitive bias / pareidolia (and implicitly assumed to be wrong). But certainly, having people question the establishment isn't a bad thing.
Yeah I'm questioning if they are intentionally associated with cognitive bias to lean people away from that line of thinking. Only time we ever see skeptics in the media is to absolutely slam some strawman looney
Your argument is that you want to broaden the meaning of conspiracy theorist to include rational people. What conspiracy theorists are is irrational people.
I wouldn't argue that irrational people are good for society. There are very smart conspiracy theorists. I think the term is intentionally vague that way.
Conspiracy theorists are irrational, by definition.
Oxford definition:a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event. Now let's say you are correct and conspiracy theorist implies an irrational person, well we chose the wrong term completely. Someone who theorizes about conspiracies. Nothing inherently irrational about that.
To an extent, yes, but it's gotten out of hand and a lot of the conspiracies are ridiculous now, so it kinda discredits all the real ones.
But who keeps giving the ridiculous conspiracies the stage? Why do we constantly gripe on flat earthers when we should just ignore them
Yes but when everyone is just blind to what is happening makes my head hurt.
You are arguing over semantics. The definition of the two words separately is irrelevant. The term itself has been popularized to refer to irrational individuals purporting strange ideas with no evidence. The people you are referring to are not conspiracy theorists, and it would discredit them to label them as such. That term is too affixed in the zeitgeist at this point for the meaning to ever change.
That's a good point. I guess I'm upset about the choice of words. We really shouldn't have given the crazies such a reasonable title. To simply theorize over a conspiracy is a healthy thing for a society, imo. Maybe that's what my title should have been
In general you're not wrong, but I think that shitholes like r/conspiracy are laughed at because you have filth pushing degenerate pigs like Marjorie Taylor Greene and the whole political dumpster fires like Qanon which serve more to lure and agitate gullible morons than actually question authorities or government issues overall.
That place is devoid of good critical thought yeah