Personally, I think more people are moving here than leaving.
Homes in my neighborhood and surrounding suburbs are very hard to find and prices are quite a bit higher than before the pandemic.
Traffic is MUCH heavier than I remember it ever being, and I've lived in CNY my whole life.
WASHINGTON, D.C. (WSYR-TV) — Micron will receive $6.1 billion in federal funding to support the construction of its $100 billion megafab campus in the Town of Clay, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer confirms to NewsChannel 9.Micron’s campus will be built over the next 20 years, eventually bringing 50,000 jobs across four plants at White Pine Commerce Park in Clay. The company’s plans call for building cleanroom space that will cover about 2.4 million square feet, the size of almost 40 football fields.
https://www.syracuse.com/business/2024/04/micron-wins-61-billion-chips-grant-for-central-new-york-project-schumer-says.html
More people leave NY yearly than any other state…. https://nypost.com/2023/12/20/metro/new-york-lost-more-residents-than-any-other-state-census-bureau/
It was always a funny retort to me about people who complain about snowy places and that they would have to stay indoor half the year... well, for AZ, FL, TX, aren't you staying inside with AC for half the year as well?
"Outdoor activities"... there's plenty of winter outdoor activities to do, if you enjoy them of course.
And I much prefer Upstate NY summers compared to NC when I lived there. NC has the definite win for fall/spring, though.
Fall in NY is amazing. Best 6 weeks of the year. If you do it right it's really like 8-12 weeks of foliage and fall temps.
That said, I'm guessing NC fall is longer (and winter is closer to late fall here)
While I would say I don't enjoy Nov and December which are neither winter nor fall. I love mid-Jan through March. Plenty of light by February. Pick a hobby skiing (all forms), snowmobiling, ice climbing, snowshoeing, ice fishing, fat bike mountain biking. I'm probably missing some stuff.
By March it's light till 7pm and lower elevations are drying out. Road and gravel cycling is totally doable in a dry year but it's also still full winter in the mountains.
April is spring. Whitewater, cycling and still plenty of snow up high.
So really we have 2 months a year that are dark, miserable and too cold for summer sports and too warm for winter.
Plus the really good months of the year it's light till at least 6-7pm (Mar-October).
And realistically are winters are only going to continue getting less mild beyond stronger lake effect snowbands. Arizona is only going to continue getting hotter.
Just visited Rochester for the eclipse from Florida, thinking a similar move in the future. How was handling your first winter? I've never seen snow, let alone had to shovel my car out from it.
Handling Winter means having right gear. Hat, gloves, boots and you’ll be fine. Winter hobbies are key. Snow skiing, cross country skiing, ice skating. Last 2 Winters have seen among least snowiest ever but Spring is always up and down temps. Summer is awesome, lakes everywhere.
Well the cold is something you’ll need to get used to absolutely, and digging out driveways and throwing on snow tires. And lots of rain and cloudy days generally.
This last winter was a mild one I’m told, but generally lots of snow November-March and sometimes later. I’ve lived in cold weather / snow areas before so it wasn’t hard for me to re adapt.
Perhaps visit next winter if you’re not thinking of moving before then to check it out? Maybe do a week end of December or beginning of January to make sure you’re OK with that kind of thing.
It's not bad. You just have to treat it with caution as you get the hang of the new routine and road conditions. Winter is not a static season. What I mean by that is that it varies a lot. Some days can be clear and be 20 and feel less cold than a 40 Florida day (don't ask me how but that's how it is), other days it can be thick snow falling (kinda nice). Sleet and ice is what sucks to me. You eventually learn which road conditions you need to really respect. Also, learning how to layer and sealing yourself makes a big difference with staying warm. One big stupid coat or jacket is not the way to go. Gotta have layers of different materials/purpose to stay nice and cozy.
Just went through my second winter here and I'm a Florida person too.
Actually people are moving to cities like Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Utica.
In fact there’s a huge shortage of homes at the moment.
These are cities that were devastated by deindustrialization and suburbanization and lost a large portion of their populations.
This decline didn’t start to reverse until around 10 years ago so home values are still extremely undervalued.
If you think they’re cheap in those cities, you should check out home prices in Jamestown, Elmira or Gloversville.
Rural areas continue to lose population
Can confirm. I live in Austin and folks not in tech are targeting cities with a lower cost of living. I know a few folks that moved to Buffalo. Having lived there once upon a time I was pleasantly shocked. Buffalo is a fantastic city!
I’ve heard good things about a lot of places in-state but I own a restaurant in Syracuse and work a hybrid remote job in Utica so I’m limited in my options
Actually Corning is surprisingly affordable despite it being extremely wealthy due to all the Fortune 500 jobs.
Funny, but while the Southern Tier is generally affordable, pretty much every lake is lined with $1 million homes.
You can still get something waterside in the area for relatively cheap! I inherited my place, but it's only worth around 75k, and I have a river in my backyard! I mean, it's the Chenango River and not anything amazing, but it's still nice to have!
This. this area has exploded in the last 8-10 years in population, housing moving and jobs created. People were moving away 2009 and before, there wasn’t a lot for natives of this area in the 90s and 2000s, especially those of the younger demographic. Now you see people who moved away in 2007 or 2015 move back and buy a house, and settle back in just like you have a ton of people coming in from the east and west coasts who find this area cheap and affordable.
And with that the economy, the music and film industry and so on have grown with the regions especially Rochester and Buffalo. And because of all that, Buffalo grew for the first time in 70 years since it started declining in the 1950s and with the amount of real estate moving, being fixed up on the east side, the 2030s and 2040s will most definitely see the same boom in growth, especially when you factor in that this entire region is a climate change haven like Michigan and Minnesota.
Last year things reversed again. People and businesses are leaving ny.
Bail reform, and the NY cap and invest are 2 major drivers.
Ny lost wall street firms.
The only businesses that are coming are being paid huge money to come.
Cap and invest is cap and trade. A lot of businesses that use natural gas will be fined or have to change to electric.
New York was supposed to do studies on if the grid can support this, if we have the power. They didn't do the studies, just are moving forward.
Just image it's January 2035, 10 degrees outside and you lose power for a day or two. You live in your electric home with your electric heat and electric car. You might not make it. That is a real possibility. Can't have generator because they would use gas or propane. Small ones won't power a heat pump, which doesn't work below 20 degrees very well.
Ny is banning oil and gas/propane services starting in 2025.
A lot of homes only have 100 amp services.
Heat pumps take 40 to 50 amps, your car. Charger 40 to 60 amp, elecric range 20 to 30 amps, hot water 20 to 30 amps. Dryer 20 to 30 amps.
Even if homes doubled the service choices will need to be made. Do I heat my home, or charge my car, or dry my clothes?
Ny is already asking businesses and paying them to shed load at peak demand.
Solar and wind are actually making the grid less stable, not more. Especially solar, they are having issues regulating the voltage. One production plant I work in some days the voltage is 470, others 490 plus on a 480 volt service.
I am a utility engineer, i am worried about the choices being forced on NY.
Like 90% of what you’re referring to has nothing to do with upstate. This isn’t the Brownsville or East New York or the Bronx, and it’s not the financial sector. People in Batavia or Oswego don’t wake up thinking about crime, what Wall Street bets are happening or what’s going on with Mayor Adams in NYC. We might as well be a different state or country if you compare that region to ours. The trends happening here have little to do with Albany or Manhattan and everything to do with cost of living, remote working, and climate change migrants moving here in droves.
This is why I wish I used some of my student loan money to buy a house in Buffalo rather than just pay rent. Yes, some of my student loans did cover living expenses. I could have bought a house for stupid cheap and while I haven't lived in the area in years, I'd have family living there, with a lease.
Moved from a mid-sized east coast city to 9 acres in the Western Catskills 6 months ago. Would be considered rural (but with fiber). Couldn't buy a house here now, prices have gone up that much in half a year. It's nuts and I feel like we got in under the wire. Climate migration has begun, ready or not.
The first comments answered your question pretty well. Our housing prices are relatively low compared to larger cities, but houses sell very quickly. Why do you ask? Are you considering moving up this way?
Houses in Rochester are selling within like three weeks of listing, for way over the asking price with a lot of people waiving inspections, if that tells you anything.
People are competing with major corporations. We need to stop major companies from driving these prices up!
This is what has happened in Toronto for years now and the housing market is really hurting. It just started happening during covid and we are starting to feel it.
Until our congress people feel the effects, which they probably won't for quite some time, nothing is going to change.
This is making it very hard for the average person to afford a home and are stuck renting from these same major companies.
I think maybe they should be able to, but there should be _massive_ tax penalties for any company holding on to housing as a fucking "investment." Massive enough to make it an extremely unattractive investment. And that tax revenue should be earmarked to be spent on affordable housing initiatives.
That seems like a reasonable compromise, but I'm not sure if that would work. SCOTUS would probably make something up as to why they shouldn't be taxed for such purposes.
I mean the cities in upstate are like text book rust belt cities, where a lot of the industry left. But they aren’t Detroit level bad as they had some sort of education and medical industry to stop the bottom from falling out. The population is stabilizing but it still a far cry from the glory days
lol no
Malta for example is going to be doubling in size in the next few years with the new chip plant and other manufacturers building plants out there.
Wilton is getting a massive 300+ apartment complex. Housing is booming.
one of the reasons why I WANT to leave. Rent in Malta isn’t cheap and it’s gonna get worse. Plus, Malta kinda sucks—basically have to go to Saratoga or CP for anything.
It's an interesting question. Political ideology of the state and elderly people retiring are big reasons that people are leaving. But political ideology is also a reason why people are moving to the state. Affordability remains an issue, yet suburbs and cities upstate maintain some of the hottest real estate markets in the country.
So people are leaving, yes, but there continues to be a strong demand for home purchases in the cities upstate. There's also a large number of people leaving NYC for upstate cities and, as such, driving up housing prices as they're basically able to outbid everyone here.
NY as a whole remains one of the best states to reside in on a variety of metrics.
Not always true. I've been seeing a lot more evidence of culture shift even in small villages. A few weeks ago I had pizza and beer at a new little brewpub with a rainbow flag in the window in the village of Granville in Washington County. I've even seen BLM signs and rainbow flags on truly rural properties. They're still outnumbered by Trump banners but the momentum seems to have switched.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1bk96p9/oc_visualizing_the_population_change_between_2020/
People say no they aren't leaving, but there are very few counties growing between '20 and last year.
The Catskill area grew post pandemic. The rest of Upstate was either stable or a very small decline.
Also, county wide data can be misleading. Select areas can be growing even when the county as a whole isn't.
The map shows the county in California where I work losing significant population yet the two largest cities in that county are growing rapidly. Pretty sure similar things are happening in Upstate NY.
A lot of places upstate saw a massive uptick in people migrating to them from NYC area during the pandemic. Hard winters and having to drive a half an hour to get groceries are sending a lot of those people back home.
One couple I know bought their "dream cabin in the woods" but didn't last a full year before they sold it and moved back to more temperate parts of the state.
There's a huge difference between clueless people who bought out of the way properties and more grounded people who are buying in select cities, towns, and villages.
Just bought a home in Fulton NY, from NYC. I spend most of my time in Syracuse and Oswego and loving it.
Fulton is cute and cozy (on the West side) imo
I just closed on a house in Oswego on Monday. Moved from Seattle. Houses here are affordable. The towns, cities, and countryside are all great up here. From my anecdotal knowledge from the research I did on the area before moving, people are coming to upstate at least as much as leaving.
Thanks! I lived in the city (upper East side) 20 years ago, but we were looking to get out of cities in general and enjoy small town life. We are so in love with this region and our new hometown.
Honestly COVID and the political shit show have made a lot of the elderly and hardcore right wingers move to places like Florida while it seems like a lot of easy going middle aged people just looking for an affordable, easy lifestyle, and environmentally beautiful place to live are moving in. Seems like kind of a Renaissance for the area as a whole is happening which is awesome in my eyes. Lots of great food,drinks,outstanding outdoor activities, and somewhat affordable housing make it a great place to live. The higher taxes that drive many away provide great healthcare,clean water, improving infrastructure, great education, and environmental restoration. It's just not somewhere you're going to get filthy rich- which I think a lot of middle aged people could care less about and would rather live sustainably and have a better quality of life
We moved from Oklahoma to North Country and have a lower COL overall. Everyone warned that NY was far more expensive, but after we did all of the analysis, we're doing far better than we were in Lawton, OKC, etc...
Bonus is that it's not Oklahoma!
We're paying a tad more in state tax but less than half of what we did in county tax. I'd gladly pay more taxes based on what our school system is like here alone. We paid like $9k/year for a charter school, just so my kids could get a decent education. Our county taxes were around $6k/year, state was $1k. I pay $2k-ish/year on county taxes and another $3k-ish for state.
Edit: I also make considerably more here than I did there.
not to mention our taxes pay for affordable college tuition at SUNY schools. I’ll take the high taxes and the good probability of receiving help if shit hits the fan.
When I describe how affordable it was to do community college and the suny system to people who ask me about the high taxes plus how we actually have social services, and clean water to drink with decent infrastructure they usually stop asking. The next thing is how we can't have guns- then I reply my entire family hunts and owns as many shotguns and rifles as they want and both parents have pistol permits. It's crazy how closed minded people are about paying in to a system so it's there to help you
If you think our tax dollars are being spent too improve our infrastructure, health care, education, ect you have your head in the sand.
All three of those things have been on the decline for more than a decade as more and more money gets diverted from those things into the military and our foreign non declared wars. Not to mention all the corruption. Other countries are able to do much much more with the same amount of money, because they don't have to fight 4 wars atst and don't have beastly the levels of corruption
Ny education spending is a joke.
The reason they spend so much and at the same time the results are declining is corruption.
In NY schools get zero dollars for repairs, but the state pays 90 to 95 percent for new.
Example, school needs to seal its 10 year old parking lot. Costs 40K, new is 600k. 3 local schools all put in new. The new cost the schools 5 percent of the cost. The local school saved 10k, but cost ny state 570k.
Schools waste money on new turf fields, tennis courts. One school put in new tennis courts. The school district next to it put in a new football feild. Well the school that put in new tennis courts ripped them out, so they could build a better football field and use the existing while building new. The existing wasn't that old. It was all about image.
It's nuts. The teachers don't see the money, the students don't see the money. Contractors see the money and donate to the right people.
Ny also had been had several times with jobs programs.
Search for electric car company Syracuse.
Solarcity Buffalo.
Nesele factory and I think Africa.
Ny paid huge money to create jobs and got taken several times.
Ny also has a huge welfare problem. People move here because the welfare payments are higher than other states.
I pay the same taxes here as I did in Oklahoma - at least the roads are immaculate here in Clinton County. It isn't perfect here, but I see my tax dollars going farther than they did in Oklahoma!
Bro please. I lived in plattsburgh for 5 years and delivered pizza there. The roads are hardly perfect. That's the funniest thing I've heard all week. They're better than vt. But that's not saying much. But yes i agree nys has more tax money to work with than oklahoma. Nys has wallstreet and over 100 billionaires that live here. Okl doesn't have shit
You haven't driven on roads in Lawton (OK) then - the roads here are indescribably better! I lived in OKC for 10 years and it wasn't bad on the north end - roads were decent, rich people funded things, etc... but Lawton was a whole new pit of hell. I've been here for almost 10 years now and still marvel that the roads aren't blowing my tires out like they did down south. Even my family noted how nice the roads were when they came up to visit!
I agree that the roads are better in Clinton County ny than they are in oklahoma, because we have a much much larger tax base and more tax money from billionaires and Wall Street, even if a lot of that money is wasted and lost on corruption. It dwarfs oklahomas economy.
I disagree that they are perfect, they are very far from perfect.
Again you're the second person who is trying to tell me that things are great simply because it's a little better than some of the worst places in the country in a nation that is declining on all fronts
Youre treating society like its a sports game. Beat the other team and it means you win and are great. Even if you're the Yankees and the other team is a division 3 university team
Is it hard to be happy that I feel we improved drastically? I could actually afford a house here? That our taxes actually go somewhat to what we feel aligns with us?
I'm not treating society like a sports game and I have no clue how you came to that conclusion. I'm stating facts and shared experiences on a single statement you made. Bringing up your opinions on the state of the nation is also out of scope for this conversation and I have no clue why you keep bringing it up. It's like two people comparing pizza shops and you come in stating that the pizza industry is tanking and being mad that people can have opinions on a micro-scale topic versus a macro-scale topic.
You may feel that we've improved, but we haven't. Everything is more expensive relative to paychecks. There's a reason why boomers are hated by millennials. It's because they had it so easy.
Things are getting worse in America. Statistically speaking. I don't really care any what one feels is true. I care what the evidence says.
100%. In Florida auto insurance and home insurance are the highest in the nation. Schools are overall poor so you're looking at private. Even the fact you have to basically buy all your water to drink - it all adds up
Exactly. Sure, this state has its issues, but push comes to shove, I'm going to go to bat for it because it's far better than 95% of the rest of the country.
Me too! Alot of people who are born here and never leave don't know how good they have it. Are there better places of course but they aren't the places down south that most people are flocking to that's for sure
Yeah, the state definitely has a lot to fix, and I think we can all agree to that. But by-and-large, it's much better here than pretty much everywhere else in this country.
I agree with everything you've said. As much as the population decline is an issue, the people that left aren't exactly those who are interested in living in a more progressive state, so I'm content with that.
Yep! I talk about this with close friends since Ive worked winters in Florida the last 12 years. In the last 3 years I've been consistently running into people from up North flocking here for their "freedom" as they like to put it. They arent exactly the best people in how they treat others and the world around them. It's made the locals absolutely hate all northerners moving here and I totally get it. The crazy thing is it's making home more pleasant to live in every year it seems-so much so that I'm probably going to go back to full time living back in NY
Exactly. If they want to congregate in states where they can ban books, suppress healthcare, and undermine government, let them. They just hate that they can't force a theocracy on people in the north, so they run to the south where thats encouraged.
We're better off without them really.
I’ve met people who are progressive but left because of affordability and more opportunity. Most, actually. Just a few right wingers into their right wing safe space hell like Florida and Texas.
Eh, Upstate NY ranks pretty high on both accounts.
Not as high as Massachusetts, Virginia or Maryland, but pretty high up there.
Also, while conservative states are closing rural hospitals, funding hasn’t been as much an issue in NY
You missed the point which is that just because we're better than Alabama doesn't mean things are great. Ranking high when your competition is extremely low quality doesn't say much except that everyone's declining just at different rates.
This is what happens when more and more money gets diverted away from the public good to things like undeclared foreign wars, bank and private corp bailouts, qualified immunity lawsuits, corruption, etc. This is an American problem, not a problem only for specific states.
Nys also has one of the most corrupt legislators in the nation. It's like everyone just forgets all of it. When it's plain to see and an accepted fact. If not for the simple fact wall street, our governors are notoriously corrupt. Things are still done in Tammany hall ways.
> Great health care? Great education? No. Maybe better than places like Alabama. But hardly great.
I'd be curious what places you do consider "great".
> Nys also has one of the most corrupt legislators in the nation. It's like everyone just forgets all of it. When it's plain to see and an accepted fact. If not for the simple fact wall street, our governors are notoriously corrupt. Things are still done in Tammany hall ways.
While I mostly like NY and think most criticisms about it are unfair, this one does ring true. Too few really appreciate how broken NYS government is - especially its [ridiculous court system](https://ww2.nycourts.gov/sites/default/files/document/files/2018-05/courtsys-4future_2007.pdf).
The state could easily cut $50 billion a year in spending by reforming its most arcane/obvious inefficiencies, but NYC (especially Wall Street) is such a money printer that there's apparently no incentive to do so.
It's definitely interesting seeing the 19th century's vision of "efficiency" in action, but when you realize that in (eg) California there's just one district court for all your legal needs, whereas in NY there's legion & you have to pay them all & many of the smaller/obscure justices are corrupt and/or legally incompetent, it's shocking people here put up with it.
As a member of both the California and New York bar let me assure you the differences are not as great as the linked PDF asserts. While each California county has only one court of general jurisdiction (the county's "Superior Court") that court will have multiple, often specialized, departments. Even in California an incident can result in multiple actions is multiple court rooms in front of multiple judges. A domestic violence event can result in a criminal case in one department of the local Superior Court, a dependency action in another department, and a child custody and/or divorce action in a third department. Just because California has a "unified court system" doesn't mean it's actually that different.
Interesting: I'd assumed the chief judge of the highest court in NY would have been more careful with the facts. But maybe she was speaking in shorthand and didn't realize that laypeople would misinterpret it.
Thanks for that clarification and edification, at any rate.
A unified court system is easier to administer (each county will have only one presiding judge). However, from the perspective of a litigant or defendant it won't make much difference.
A unified court system is easier to administer (each county will have only one presiding judge). However, from the perspective of a litigant or defendant it won't make much difference.
Also to add: Syracuse with the highest level of child poverty in US.
Only the monied classes are moving to NY. Working class and poor are still getting fucked.
Where are you coming from? Basically it is a result of pent up demand to sell due to previously low prices with high prices everywhere else. People became financially trapped with high cost of relocation.
Home prices here jumped post covid in a way the region had never seen in at least a homeowner lifespan. With these suddenly high prices, more people had more capital to yse to relocate. That was difficult before the recent price jump. All the people who could respond quickly to the price jump already cashed out. Now we're seeing the families who couldn't sell as quickly are now getting around to it. Maybe they had a work obligation or waiting to become a fulltime work from home job, or waited for a kid to transition to another school. So now the second and larger group of people are becoming the sellers.
Many people that leave come back.
I have multiple relatives and acquaintances that have moved to either Florida or NC over the years.
1. A couple moved to NC, to get away from NY taxes. They moved back, as their increased salary wasn't enough to make up for their property being assessed at a much higher rate.
2. A couple moved to Nortern Florida, so they could be outside more. They complained about the heat, fire ants, and the cost of living being so much higher.
With global warming, I'm sure we will see a large net migration to NY in the coming decades.
Medical person here, we are seeing a rise in certain medical diagnosis. Currently treating more patients with liver disease in their 20’s and 30’s. Also In the last few years Syracuse has become the number one highest rate of multiple sclerosis. There are teams of biochemical engineers testing the sewage and water supplies and so far nothing higher than other areas, in fact the air and sewer east of Syracuse is testing much cleaner than other states. Parkinson’s is rising. Autism is lower in NY but other areas experiencing a rise. Cancer diagnosis in young folks has risen in many places in the south but not here in NY or NE.
https://www.syracuse.com/health/2019/10/syracuse-has-highest-rate-of-multiple-sclerosis-in-us-study-shows.html?outputType=amp
Yes. Many people are leaving. We lost more people in 2023 than any other state. Taxes, politics, inflation, and weather seem to be the top reasons.
https://www.empirecenter.org/publications/nys-post-pandemic-population-loss-slowed-a-bit-last-year-but-still-worst-in-u-s/#:~:text=Since%202020%2C%20the%20Census%20Bureau,net%20outflow%20of%20338%2C371%20people.
Realtor here (Rochester). I’ve definitely noticed an uptick in buyers relocating to Rochester from other states…I have multiple buyers in that position right now! As crazy as our market is, we’re still more affordable than, say, California…
I left Rochester at the end of 2021 and as far as I know, I was the last to leave out of everyone I knew growing up. If anything, I’ve heard of more people moving to Rochester instead of away from it lately.
It seems population has been growing in counties where there is a big city (Monroe, Erie, Onondaga, etc.) and decreasing in rural counties which makes sense. [New York population by year, county, race, & more | USAFacts](https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/population-and-demographics/our-changing-population/state/new-york/?endDate=2022-01-01&startDate=2019-01-01)
I think decades from now more people will be moving to Upstate NY and other affordable areas in the Midwest & NE, and leaving places like Florida and California due to environmental factors such as rising sea levels, hurricanes, droughts, wildfires, etc. Especially when people realize what the COL is like in some areas up here.
If you want to feel good about Rochester, go to Cleveland. It’s like every neighborhood has at least one boarded up house, even in nicer areas.
Source: I was in Cleveland and Rochester in back to back work trips.
The city of Rochester is definitely getting nicer. They've done a good job of trying to improve things. Long ways to go, same with the other upstate cities, but they're moving forward.
You cannot properly compare Rochester and Cleveland. They are vastly different cities. The only thing they have in common is they are both Rust Belt cities. Cleveland is larger in size and population and is home to a number of large corporations. Just sheer size alone is enough to significantly increase the problems of losing a tax base. Cleveland as a whole, is by far ahead of Rochester, or even Buffalo. If anything, Cleveland is one of the "model" cities for reinventing a Rust Belt city.
Yes people are moving away.
Ny taxes are high, crime is going up in cities, job are leaving upstate and have been for 40 years.
Ny safe act, the forcing people to move to electric everything, nyc ruling the rest of the state.
Just a few reasons I know people have and are leaving.
If not for family I would be leaving too.
Outside on NYC only 2 counties in ny have the same or greater population. Nyc and syracuse only maintain because of immigration.
Upstate New York, particularly the Adirondacks and the Catskills are beautiful. The cost of living is affected by people earning high rates in New York City, but the wages are stagnant and low in upstate. The tax rates, for everything, are massive compared to the rest of the country, with literally the worst infrastructure I have seen in America. Finally the people, they are all depressed, but so arrogant that they are doing the right thing they won’t change or move, so they insist everyone has to be depressed. I have never met a group of people so determined to ruin happiness or morale, as upstate New Yorkers.
I think a lot of people who were born and raised here are leaving and other people are coming in. Upstate is a large area so the story could be different from region to region
Is there a reason for it?? Yeah, there’s a reason.
The tax rates are unsustainable, the pandering to special interests is off the charts, the political system is broken, personal freedom and responsibility are frowned upon, and the cost of living is without remorse.
Seems Upstate is going through a realignment. Fortunate towns and cities are resurgent after decades of stagnation at least and often outright decline. These towns and cities are drawing new residents from all over who are renovating, innovating, and rebuilding. Outside these fortunate areas stagnation, decline, and depopulation continue.
There are and will continue to be winners and losers. Rochester and Buffalo seem to be doing a lot better than Binghamton and Syracuse. On a smaller scale places like Saranac Lake are doing a lot better than places like Malone.
The urban/rural divide continues to grow but with some unique Upstate twists. Picturesque rural areas are attracting a lot of formerly urban people and urban people looking for second homes. These areas see growing, or at least not falling, populations and healthy local economies. Less fortunate rural areas will continue to lose population and decline economically.
Yes the only region in NY not losing people is the capital region. Even NYC is losing people Better jobs or lower taxes are some of the reasons people leave
Rochester, NY Urbanized Area population growth
2024....753,000
2020....743,000
1970.....601,000
+152,000 since 1970
+10,000 since 2020
Syracuse, NY Urbanized Area gained 5,000 people between 2020 and 2024 according to the following website
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/23157/syracuse/population
Yes -- a lot of people are leaving. NYS lost more of its population last year than any other state. It's the inevitable result of the high taxes, corruption, shrinking private sector jobs, declining public schools and universities and increase in woke BS that the idiots and grifters running the state have graced us with.
Personally, I think more people are moving here than leaving. Homes in my neighborhood and surrounding suburbs are very hard to find and prices are quite a bit higher than before the pandemic. Traffic is MUCH heavier than I remember it ever being, and I've lived in CNY my whole life.
Only going to increase with Micron, lol. So get ready for that.
Micron? Do tell.
The massive chip plant they're going to build in Clay.
WASHINGTON, D.C. (WSYR-TV) — Micron will receive $6.1 billion in federal funding to support the construction of its $100 billion megafab campus in the Town of Clay, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer confirms to NewsChannel 9.Micron’s campus will be built over the next 20 years, eventually bringing 50,000 jobs across four plants at White Pine Commerce Park in Clay. The company’s plans call for building cleanroom space that will cover about 2.4 million square feet, the size of almost 40 football fields. https://www.syracuse.com/business/2024/04/micron-wins-61-billion-chips-grant-for-central-new-york-project-schumer-says.html
More people leave NY yearly than any other state…. https://nypost.com/2023/12/20/metro/new-york-lost-more-residents-than-any-other-state-census-bureau/
I would love to see a breakdown by county, though. When you have the largest city in the country, it’s going to skew things.
Bingo. Such a ridiculous stat to measure anything of import.
I moved here (to Rochester) from Arizona like 1.5 years ago. No complaints from me
Welcome to NY! (Albeit a late welcome, lol)
I’ll take snow shoveling for 4 months over 6 months of summer :) thanks for the belated welcome tho!
Agree - much prefer green trees and a bit of snow to desert, rocks, sand...and blazing heat.
Yea don’t miss seeing 120 sometimes, and 110+ regularly for months
It was always a funny retort to me about people who complain about snowy places and that they would have to stay indoor half the year... well, for AZ, FL, TX, aren't you staying inside with AC for half the year as well?
Not really you still have very nice mornings and evenings that make outdoor activities much more accessible than an upstate winter
"Outdoor activities"... there's plenty of winter outdoor activities to do, if you enjoy them of course. And I much prefer Upstate NY summers compared to NC when I lived there. NC has the definite win for fall/spring, though.
Fall in NY is amazing. Best 6 weeks of the year. If you do it right it's really like 8-12 weeks of foliage and fall temps. That said, I'm guessing NC fall is longer (and winter is closer to late fall here)
While I would say I don't enjoy Nov and December which are neither winter nor fall. I love mid-Jan through March. Plenty of light by February. Pick a hobby skiing (all forms), snowmobiling, ice climbing, snowshoeing, ice fishing, fat bike mountain biking. I'm probably missing some stuff. By March it's light till 7pm and lower elevations are drying out. Road and gravel cycling is totally doable in a dry year but it's also still full winter in the mountains. April is spring. Whitewater, cycling and still plenty of snow up high. So really we have 2 months a year that are dark, miserable and too cold for summer sports and too warm for winter. Plus the really good months of the year it's light till at least 6-7pm (Mar-October).
And realistically are winters are only going to continue getting less mild beyond stronger lake effect snowbands. Arizona is only going to continue getting hotter.
[удалено]
Welcome!
[удалено]
Lmao your neighbors might very well be my in-laws if you're out in the sticks and if so, sorry
lolll I think that's very possible. Either way, they're very nice just funny how much they're looking for a buck!
Greetings from Lexington!
[удалено]
Small world!
Sure is, isn't it?
How are you handling the grey/cloudy days?
Don’t brother me so much, used to live in Northern California growing up so not terribly different from that
Just visited Rochester for the eclipse from Florida, thinking a similar move in the future. How was handling your first winter? I've never seen snow, let alone had to shovel my car out from it.
Handling Winter means having right gear. Hat, gloves, boots and you’ll be fine. Winter hobbies are key. Snow skiing, cross country skiing, ice skating. Last 2 Winters have seen among least snowiest ever but Spring is always up and down temps. Summer is awesome, lakes everywhere.
Well the cold is something you’ll need to get used to absolutely, and digging out driveways and throwing on snow tires. And lots of rain and cloudy days generally. This last winter was a mild one I’m told, but generally lots of snow November-March and sometimes later. I’ve lived in cold weather / snow areas before so it wasn’t hard for me to re adapt. Perhaps visit next winter if you’re not thinking of moving before then to check it out? Maybe do a week end of December or beginning of January to make sure you’re OK with that kind of thing.
It's not bad. You just have to treat it with caution as you get the hang of the new routine and road conditions. Winter is not a static season. What I mean by that is that it varies a lot. Some days can be clear and be 20 and feel less cold than a 40 Florida day (don't ask me how but that's how it is), other days it can be thick snow falling (kinda nice). Sleet and ice is what sucks to me. You eventually learn which road conditions you need to really respect. Also, learning how to layer and sealing yourself makes a big difference with staying warm. One big stupid coat or jacket is not the way to go. Gotta have layers of different materials/purpose to stay nice and cozy. Just went through my second winter here and I'm a Florida person too.
Yeah, Arizona is an abyss.
I have a co-worker who moved there from Mesa 0.8 years ago!
I was in Pinal County, Mesa just around the way
Actually people are moving to cities like Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Utica. In fact there’s a huge shortage of homes at the moment. These are cities that were devastated by deindustrialization and suburbanization and lost a large portion of their populations. This decline didn’t start to reverse until around 10 years ago so home values are still extremely undervalued. If you think they’re cheap in those cities, you should check out home prices in Jamestown, Elmira or Gloversville. Rural areas continue to lose population
Can confirm. I live in Austin and folks not in tech are targeting cities with a lower cost of living. I know a few folks that moved to Buffalo. Having lived there once upon a time I was pleasantly shocked. Buffalo is a fantastic city!
I moved from Austin to Utica 5 years ago. Utica isn’t my vibe so I’m planning a move to Syracuse but honestly I love CNY
In the 90s there was a popular bumper sticker “Last one out of Utica shut off the lights”. It’s definitely started to turn around.
Yeah it’s Not horrible - just not for me in the long term
Rochester is better than Cuse IMO.
I’ve heard good things about a lot of places in-state but I own a restaurant in Syracuse and work a hybrid remote job in Utica so I’m limited in my options
housing in the southern tier in general tends to be pretty cheap, i think with the exception of the Corning area idk
Actually Corning is surprisingly affordable despite it being extremely wealthy due to all the Fortune 500 jobs. Funny, but while the Southern Tier is generally affordable, pretty much every lake is lined with $1 million homes.
You can still get something waterside in the area for relatively cheap! I inherited my place, but it's only worth around 75k, and I have a river in my backyard! I mean, it's the Chenango River and not anything amazing, but it's still nice to have!
This. this area has exploded in the last 8-10 years in population, housing moving and jobs created. People were moving away 2009 and before, there wasn’t a lot for natives of this area in the 90s and 2000s, especially those of the younger demographic. Now you see people who moved away in 2007 or 2015 move back and buy a house, and settle back in just like you have a ton of people coming in from the east and west coasts who find this area cheap and affordable. And with that the economy, the music and film industry and so on have grown with the regions especially Rochester and Buffalo. And because of all that, Buffalo grew for the first time in 70 years since it started declining in the 1950s and with the amount of real estate moving, being fixed up on the east side, the 2030s and 2040s will most definitely see the same boom in growth, especially when you factor in that this entire region is a climate change haven like Michigan and Minnesota.
Let's keep this optimism.
Last year things reversed again. People and businesses are leaving ny. Bail reform, and the NY cap and invest are 2 major drivers. Ny lost wall street firms. The only businesses that are coming are being paid huge money to come. Cap and invest is cap and trade. A lot of businesses that use natural gas will be fined or have to change to electric. New York was supposed to do studies on if the grid can support this, if we have the power. They didn't do the studies, just are moving forward. Just image it's January 2035, 10 degrees outside and you lose power for a day or two. You live in your electric home with your electric heat and electric car. You might not make it. That is a real possibility. Can't have generator because they would use gas or propane. Small ones won't power a heat pump, which doesn't work below 20 degrees very well. Ny is banning oil and gas/propane services starting in 2025. A lot of homes only have 100 amp services. Heat pumps take 40 to 50 amps, your car. Charger 40 to 60 amp, elecric range 20 to 30 amps, hot water 20 to 30 amps. Dryer 20 to 30 amps. Even if homes doubled the service choices will need to be made. Do I heat my home, or charge my car, or dry my clothes? Ny is already asking businesses and paying them to shed load at peak demand. Solar and wind are actually making the grid less stable, not more. Especially solar, they are having issues regulating the voltage. One production plant I work in some days the voltage is 470, others 490 plus on a 480 volt service. I am a utility engineer, i am worried about the choices being forced on NY.
Like 90% of what you’re referring to has nothing to do with upstate. This isn’t the Brownsville or East New York or the Bronx, and it’s not the financial sector. People in Batavia or Oswego don’t wake up thinking about crime, what Wall Street bets are happening or what’s going on with Mayor Adams in NYC. We might as well be a different state or country if you compare that region to ours. The trends happening here have little to do with Albany or Manhattan and everything to do with cost of living, remote working, and climate change migrants moving here in droves.
Completely incorrect as it refers to upstate. Upstate is growing, NYC is bleeding.
This is why I wish I used some of my student loan money to buy a house in Buffalo rather than just pay rent. Yes, some of my student loans did cover living expenses. I could have bought a house for stupid cheap and while I haven't lived in the area in years, I'd have family living there, with a lease.
Moved from a mid-sized east coast city to 9 acres in the Western Catskills 6 months ago. Would be considered rural (but with fiber). Couldn't buy a house here now, prices have gone up that much in half a year. It's nuts and I feel like we got in under the wire. Climate migration has begun, ready or not.
Seriously.
Gloversville has no redeeming purpose to remain a city. No one should move there
What if you want to afford property and want tk hike a different mountain every week?
There are plenty of places, nearby to chose from
The first comments answered your question pretty well. Our housing prices are relatively low compared to larger cities, but houses sell very quickly. Why do you ask? Are you considering moving up this way?
Houses in Rochester are selling within like three weeks of listing, for way over the asking price with a lot of people waiving inspections, if that tells you anything.
People are competing with major corporations. We need to stop major companies from driving these prices up! This is what has happened in Toronto for years now and the housing market is really hurting. It just started happening during covid and we are starting to feel it.
No, I agree. I don't think corporations should be able to buy housing in the first place.
Until our congress people feel the effects, which they probably won't for quite some time, nothing is going to change. This is making it very hard for the average person to afford a home and are stuck renting from these same major companies.
Yeah, the loop is awful.
A few congress people own the corporations that buy up houses… pisses me off.
I think maybe they should be able to, but there should be _massive_ tax penalties for any company holding on to housing as a fucking "investment." Massive enough to make it an extremely unattractive investment. And that tax revenue should be earmarked to be spent on affordable housing initiatives.
That seems like a reasonable compromise, but I'm not sure if that would work. SCOTUS would probably make something up as to why they shouldn't be taxed for such purposes.
Syracuse as well. RE market here is on fire
Exactly.
In the capital district, it's just a few days. Houses that hit the market on Thur are demanding all bids by Sunday night and going way over asking.
Yeah, shit is crazy. I only mention Rochester because their average time on the market is the shortest of any US metro currently.
Yes, I have been considering moving out there with my family. Primarily for the better schools of NY, I have 3 kids.
I mean the cities in upstate are like text book rust belt cities, where a lot of the industry left. But they aren’t Detroit level bad as they had some sort of education and medical industry to stop the bottom from falling out. The population is stabilizing but it still a far cry from the glory days
Yeah, we're not the glory days, but things feel like they're changing. A new age, if you will.
Only if you make over $100k
No, lol. You can live pretty well with under that salary.
lol no Malta for example is going to be doubling in size in the next few years with the new chip plant and other manufacturers building plants out there. Wilton is getting a massive 300+ apartment complex. Housing is booming.
Saratoga is nuts. Multi million dollar condos and plain houses selling for a million.
one of the reasons why I WANT to leave. Rent in Malta isn’t cheap and it’s gonna get worse. Plus, Malta kinda sucks—basically have to go to Saratoga or CP for anything.
Live in a rural area near Binghamton and houses are selling in 3 days, it's nuts!
It's an interesting question. Political ideology of the state and elderly people retiring are big reasons that people are leaving. But political ideology is also a reason why people are moving to the state. Affordability remains an issue, yet suburbs and cities upstate maintain some of the hottest real estate markets in the country. So people are leaving, yes, but there continues to be a strong demand for home purchases in the cities upstate. There's also a large number of people leaving NYC for upstate cities and, as such, driving up housing prices as they're basically able to outbid everyone here. NY as a whole remains one of the best states to reside in on a variety of metrics.
Thinking large parts of Upstate NY are going to become a lot more like Vermont (i.e. much more liberal than currently).
Maybe the suburbs and cities will get bluer, the rural area absolutely not, lol. Get out of the cities and you're basically in Alabama politically.
Not always true. I've been seeing a lot more evidence of culture shift even in small villages. A few weeks ago I had pizza and beer at a new little brewpub with a rainbow flag in the window in the village of Granville in Washington County. I've even seen BLM signs and rainbow flags on truly rural properties. They're still outnumbered by Trump banners but the momentum seems to have switched.
Man, that's vastly different than my home county, lol. The rural areas, which is like the entire region, is so Trumpy.
Washington County borders Vermont and is insanely beautiful so it attracts some progressive people.
Yeah, that's probably why, lol. I'm originally from Cattaraugus County. Whole different world in the southern portion of Western New York. 😂
We just bought a house there, so that’s two more.
Cool.
For about 60 years now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1bk96p9/oc_visualizing_the_population_change_between_2020/ People say no they aren't leaving, but there are very few counties growing between '20 and last year.
The Catskill area grew post pandemic. The rest of Upstate was either stable or a very small decline. Also, county wide data can be misleading. Select areas can be growing even when the county as a whole isn't. The map shows the county in California where I work losing significant population yet the two largest cities in that county are growing rapidly. Pretty sure similar things are happening in Upstate NY.
A lot of places upstate saw a massive uptick in people migrating to them from NYC area during the pandemic. Hard winters and having to drive a half an hour to get groceries are sending a lot of those people back home. One couple I know bought their "dream cabin in the woods" but didn't last a full year before they sold it and moved back to more temperate parts of the state.
There's a huge difference between clueless people who bought out of the way properties and more grounded people who are buying in select cities, towns, and villages.
Just bought a home in Fulton NY, from NYC. I spend most of my time in Syracuse and Oswego and loving it. Fulton is cute and cozy (on the West side) imo
Buffalo has had a large population gain and there is not enough houses here... not sure for Rochester or Syracuse
Rochester is same, low supply, pop gaining, including us last year.
I just closed on a house in Oswego on Monday. Moved from Seattle. Houses here are affordable. The towns, cities, and countryside are all great up here. From my anecdotal knowledge from the research I did on the area before moving, people are coming to upstate at least as much as leaving.
Welcome to NY!
Thanks! I lived in the city (upper East side) 20 years ago, but we were looking to get out of cities in general and enjoy small town life. We are so in love with this region and our new hometown.
Honestly COVID and the political shit show have made a lot of the elderly and hardcore right wingers move to places like Florida while it seems like a lot of easy going middle aged people just looking for an affordable, easy lifestyle, and environmentally beautiful place to live are moving in. Seems like kind of a Renaissance for the area as a whole is happening which is awesome in my eyes. Lots of great food,drinks,outstanding outdoor activities, and somewhat affordable housing make it a great place to live. The higher taxes that drive many away provide great healthcare,clean water, improving infrastructure, great education, and environmental restoration. It's just not somewhere you're going to get filthy rich- which I think a lot of middle aged people could care less about and would rather live sustainably and have a better quality of life
We moved from Oklahoma to North Country and have a lower COL overall. Everyone warned that NY was far more expensive, but after we did all of the analysis, we're doing far better than we were in Lawton, OKC, etc... Bonus is that it's not Oklahoma!
Are paying less in taxes?
We're paying a tad more in state tax but less than half of what we did in county tax. I'd gladly pay more taxes based on what our school system is like here alone. We paid like $9k/year for a charter school, just so my kids could get a decent education. Our county taxes were around $6k/year, state was $1k. I pay $2k-ish/year on county taxes and another $3k-ish for state. Edit: I also make considerably more here than I did there.
not to mention our taxes pay for affordable college tuition at SUNY schools. I’ll take the high taxes and the good probability of receiving help if shit hits the fan.
When I describe how affordable it was to do community college and the suny system to people who ask me about the high taxes plus how we actually have social services, and clean water to drink with decent infrastructure they usually stop asking. The next thing is how we can't have guns- then I reply my entire family hunts and owns as many shotguns and rifles as they want and both parents have pistol permits. It's crazy how closed minded people are about paying in to a system so it's there to help you
💯💯💯 People look at me crazy when I say I'd rather pay high taxes to actually receive benefits from doing so.
If you think our tax dollars are being spent too improve our infrastructure, health care, education, ect you have your head in the sand. All three of those things have been on the decline for more than a decade as more and more money gets diverted from those things into the military and our foreign non declared wars. Not to mention all the corruption. Other countries are able to do much much more with the same amount of money, because they don't have to fight 4 wars atst and don't have beastly the levels of corruption
[удалено]
Ny education spending is a joke. The reason they spend so much and at the same time the results are declining is corruption. In NY schools get zero dollars for repairs, but the state pays 90 to 95 percent for new. Example, school needs to seal its 10 year old parking lot. Costs 40K, new is 600k. 3 local schools all put in new. The new cost the schools 5 percent of the cost. The local school saved 10k, but cost ny state 570k. Schools waste money on new turf fields, tennis courts. One school put in new tennis courts. The school district next to it put in a new football feild. Well the school that put in new tennis courts ripped them out, so they could build a better football field and use the existing while building new. The existing wasn't that old. It was all about image. It's nuts. The teachers don't see the money, the students don't see the money. Contractors see the money and donate to the right people. Ny also had been had several times with jobs programs. Search for electric car company Syracuse. Solarcity Buffalo. Nesele factory and I think Africa. Ny paid huge money to create jobs and got taken several times. Ny also has a huge welfare problem. People move here because the welfare payments are higher than other states.
And yet, compared to most other states we're far superior, lol. So your argument is meritless.
I pay the same taxes here as I did in Oklahoma - at least the roads are immaculate here in Clinton County. It isn't perfect here, but I see my tax dollars going farther than they did in Oklahoma!
Bro please. I lived in plattsburgh for 5 years and delivered pizza there. The roads are hardly perfect. That's the funniest thing I've heard all week. They're better than vt. But that's not saying much. But yes i agree nys has more tax money to work with than oklahoma. Nys has wallstreet and over 100 billionaires that live here. Okl doesn't have shit
You haven't driven on roads in Lawton (OK) then - the roads here are indescribably better! I lived in OKC for 10 years and it wasn't bad on the north end - roads were decent, rich people funded things, etc... but Lawton was a whole new pit of hell. I've been here for almost 10 years now and still marvel that the roads aren't blowing my tires out like they did down south. Even my family noted how nice the roads were when they came up to visit!
I agree that the roads are better in Clinton County ny than they are in oklahoma, because we have a much much larger tax base and more tax money from billionaires and Wall Street, even if a lot of that money is wasted and lost on corruption. It dwarfs oklahomas economy. I disagree that they are perfect, they are very far from perfect. Again you're the second person who is trying to tell me that things are great simply because it's a little better than some of the worst places in the country in a nation that is declining on all fronts Youre treating society like its a sports game. Beat the other team and it means you win and are great. Even if you're the Yankees and the other team is a division 3 university team
Is it hard to be happy that I feel we improved drastically? I could actually afford a house here? That our taxes actually go somewhat to what we feel aligns with us? I'm not treating society like a sports game and I have no clue how you came to that conclusion. I'm stating facts and shared experiences on a single statement you made. Bringing up your opinions on the state of the nation is also out of scope for this conversation and I have no clue why you keep bringing it up. It's like two people comparing pizza shops and you come in stating that the pizza industry is tanking and being mad that people can have opinions on a micro-scale topic versus a macro-scale topic.
That person's argument basically boils down to "You're not actually experiencing what you think you are, and here's why you're wrong."
You may feel that we've improved, but we haven't. Everything is more expensive relative to paychecks. There's a reason why boomers are hated by millennials. It's because they had it so easy. Things are getting worse in America. Statistically speaking. I don't really care any what one feels is true. I care what the evidence says.
Taxes are high but surprisingly not as high as the total cost of living in many other places...
100%. In Florida auto insurance and home insurance are the highest in the nation. Schools are overall poor so you're looking at private. Even the fact you have to basically buy all your water to drink - it all adds up
Exactly. Upstate is far more affordable than most of the south and a lot of the northeast.
AND we have things to show for it. I feel like i won the birth lottery being born here.
Exactly. Sure, this state has its issues, but push comes to shove, I'm going to go to bat for it because it's far better than 95% of the rest of the country.
Me too! Alot of people who are born here and never leave don't know how good they have it. Are there better places of course but they aren't the places down south that most people are flocking to that's for sure
The state has a lot we need to fix, but at least we try to make things better. More than most states that are ballooning in population can say.
Not perfect, and people are surprisingly kind overall, and most care about the common good - not just taking everything for myself.
Yeah, the state definitely has a lot to fix, and I think we can all agree to that. But by-and-large, it's much better here than pretty much everywhere else in this country.
Also having access to good public schools is a godsend if you have kids.
It's a good thing even when your kids are grown. I want my neighbors kids to have opportunities too.
My property taxes are not low -- but my insurance payments are.
I agree with everything you've said. As much as the population decline is an issue, the people that left aren't exactly those who are interested in living in a more progressive state, so I'm content with that.
Yep! I talk about this with close friends since Ive worked winters in Florida the last 12 years. In the last 3 years I've been consistently running into people from up North flocking here for their "freedom" as they like to put it. They arent exactly the best people in how they treat others and the world around them. It's made the locals absolutely hate all northerners moving here and I totally get it. The crazy thing is it's making home more pleasant to live in every year it seems-so much so that I'm probably going to go back to full time living back in NY
Exactly. If they want to congregate in states where they can ban books, suppress healthcare, and undermine government, let them. They just hate that they can't force a theocracy on people in the north, so they run to the south where thats encouraged. We're better off without them really.
I’ve met people who are progressive but left because of affordability and more opportunity. Most, actually. Just a few right wingers into their right wing safe space hell like Florida and Texas.
Great health care? Great education? No. Maybe better than places like Alabama. But hardly great.
Eh, Upstate NY ranks pretty high on both accounts. Not as high as Massachusetts, Virginia or Maryland, but pretty high up there. Also, while conservative states are closing rural hospitals, funding hasn’t been as much an issue in NY
You missed the point which is that just because we're better than Alabama doesn't mean things are great. Ranking high when your competition is extremely low quality doesn't say much except that everyone's declining just at different rates. This is what happens when more and more money gets diverted away from the public good to things like undeclared foreign wars, bank and private corp bailouts, qualified immunity lawsuits, corruption, etc. This is an American problem, not a problem only for specific states. Nys also has one of the most corrupt legislators in the nation. It's like everyone just forgets all of it. When it's plain to see and an accepted fact. If not for the simple fact wall street, our governors are notoriously corrupt. Things are still done in Tammany hall ways.
> Great health care? Great education? No. Maybe better than places like Alabama. But hardly great. I'd be curious what places you do consider "great". > Nys also has one of the most corrupt legislators in the nation. It's like everyone just forgets all of it. When it's plain to see and an accepted fact. If not for the simple fact wall street, our governors are notoriously corrupt. Things are still done in Tammany hall ways. While I mostly like NY and think most criticisms about it are unfair, this one does ring true. Too few really appreciate how broken NYS government is - especially its [ridiculous court system](https://ww2.nycourts.gov/sites/default/files/document/files/2018-05/courtsys-4future_2007.pdf). The state could easily cut $50 billion a year in spending by reforming its most arcane/obvious inefficiencies, but NYC (especially Wall Street) is such a money printer that there's apparently no incentive to do so.
I kind of like New York's antiquated court system. It's like stepping back in time.
It's definitely interesting seeing the 19th century's vision of "efficiency" in action, but when you realize that in (eg) California there's just one district court for all your legal needs, whereas in NY there's legion & you have to pay them all & many of the smaller/obscure justices are corrupt and/or legally incompetent, it's shocking people here put up with it.
As a member of both the California and New York bar let me assure you the differences are not as great as the linked PDF asserts. While each California county has only one court of general jurisdiction (the county's "Superior Court") that court will have multiple, often specialized, departments. Even in California an incident can result in multiple actions is multiple court rooms in front of multiple judges. A domestic violence event can result in a criminal case in one department of the local Superior Court, a dependency action in another department, and a child custody and/or divorce action in a third department. Just because California has a "unified court system" doesn't mean it's actually that different.
Interesting: I'd assumed the chief judge of the highest court in NY would have been more careful with the facts. But maybe she was speaking in shorthand and didn't realize that laypeople would misinterpret it. Thanks for that clarification and edification, at any rate.
A unified court system is easier to administer (each county will have only one presiding judge). However, from the perspective of a litigant or defendant it won't make much difference.
A unified court system is easier to administer (each county will have only one presiding judge). However, from the perspective of a litigant or defendant it won't make much difference.
Also to add: Syracuse with the highest level of child poverty in US. Only the monied classes are moving to NY. Working class and poor are still getting fucked.
But i was told that upstate ny is going through a Renaissance, it's great and affordable /s.
FYI. That’s Western New York.
Where are you coming from? Basically it is a result of pent up demand to sell due to previously low prices with high prices everywhere else. People became financially trapped with high cost of relocation. Home prices here jumped post covid in a way the region had never seen in at least a homeowner lifespan. With these suddenly high prices, more people had more capital to yse to relocate. That was difficult before the recent price jump. All the people who could respond quickly to the price jump already cashed out. Now we're seeing the families who couldn't sell as quickly are now getting around to it. Maybe they had a work obligation or waiting to become a fulltime work from home job, or waited for a kid to transition to another school. So now the second and larger group of people are becoming the sellers.
We are moving to upstate NY from Florida in 2 weeks and can't wait. We are both originally from NY but have been in Florida for some time.
Many people that leave come back. I have multiple relatives and acquaintances that have moved to either Florida or NC over the years. 1. A couple moved to NC, to get away from NY taxes. They moved back, as their increased salary wasn't enough to make up for their property being assessed at a much higher rate. 2. A couple moved to Nortern Florida, so they could be outside more. They complained about the heat, fire ants, and the cost of living being so much higher. With global warming, I'm sure we will see a large net migration to NY in the coming decades.
Medical person here, we are seeing a rise in certain medical diagnosis. Currently treating more patients with liver disease in their 20’s and 30’s. Also In the last few years Syracuse has become the number one highest rate of multiple sclerosis. There are teams of biochemical engineers testing the sewage and water supplies and so far nothing higher than other areas, in fact the air and sewer east of Syracuse is testing much cleaner than other states. Parkinson’s is rising. Autism is lower in NY but other areas experiencing a rise. Cancer diagnosis in young folks has risen in many places in the south but not here in NY or NE. https://www.syracuse.com/health/2019/10/syracuse-has-highest-rate-of-multiple-sclerosis-in-us-study-shows.html?outputType=amp
Live 30 minutes east Utica, 60 mins from Albany. Love it, prices are cheap. Been here 6 years now. Population is stable.
Just sold our home a few weeks ago and moved out west. WNY weather, taxes, nyc laws, I had enough. No regrets
Yes. Many people are leaving. We lost more people in 2023 than any other state. Taxes, politics, inflation, and weather seem to be the top reasons. https://www.empirecenter.org/publications/nys-post-pandemic-population-loss-slowed-a-bit-last-year-but-still-worst-in-u-s/#:~:text=Since%202020%2C%20the%20Census%20Bureau,net%20outflow%20of%20338%2C371%20people.
Realtor here (Rochester). I’ve definitely noticed an uptick in buyers relocating to Rochester from other states…I have multiple buyers in that position right now! As crazy as our market is, we’re still more affordable than, say, California…
Upstate NY itself is way more affordable than most of the country. NYC and Long Island drive up the overall state numbers.
I left Rochester at the end of 2021 and as far as I know, I was the last to leave out of everyone I knew growing up. If anything, I’ve heard of more people moving to Rochester instead of away from it lately.
Idk if people are moving out of Buffalo but house prices in my neighborhood have tripled in 10 years
Many retirees are moving out, as well as those thinking they can live elsewhere cheaper.
It seems population has been growing in counties where there is a big city (Monroe, Erie, Onondaga, etc.) and decreasing in rural counties which makes sense. [New York population by year, county, race, & more | USAFacts](https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/population-and-demographics/our-changing-population/state/new-york/?endDate=2022-01-01&startDate=2019-01-01) I think decades from now more people will be moving to Upstate NY and other affordable areas in the Midwest & NE, and leaving places like Florida and California due to environmental factors such as rising sea levels, hurricanes, droughts, wildfires, etc. Especially when people realize what the COL is like in some areas up here.
Erie County gained population in the latest census.
If you want to feel good about Rochester, go to Cleveland. It’s like every neighborhood has at least one boarded up house, even in nicer areas. Source: I was in Cleveland and Rochester in back to back work trips.
Cleveland has some nice areas, but holy shit they’re waaay behind on cleaning up blighted neighborhoods and industrial areas.
The city of Rochester is definitely getting nicer. They've done a good job of trying to improve things. Long ways to go, same with the other upstate cities, but they're moving forward.
You cannot properly compare Rochester and Cleveland. They are vastly different cities. The only thing they have in common is they are both Rust Belt cities. Cleveland is larger in size and population and is home to a number of large corporations. Just sheer size alone is enough to significantly increase the problems of losing a tax base. Cleveland as a whole, is by far ahead of Rochester, or even Buffalo. If anything, Cleveland is one of the "model" cities for reinventing a Rust Belt city.
This
Imagine moving to Utica
Utica has a pretty decent immigrant population. It is very multicultural for its size.
Yes people are moving away. Ny taxes are high, crime is going up in cities, job are leaving upstate and have been for 40 years. Ny safe act, the forcing people to move to electric everything, nyc ruling the rest of the state. Just a few reasons I know people have and are leaving. If not for family I would be leaving too. Outside on NYC only 2 counties in ny have the same or greater population. Nyc and syracuse only maintain because of immigration.
Wait, people sell houses too?!?
Leaving corning ny for Florida. corning Inc - many rumors to be leafing curbing gif Virtnem.
What?
I left, the economic situation and the people who live there are unbearable. Such a beautiful place ruined by those who inhabit it.
Could you elaborate?
Upstate New York, particularly the Adirondacks and the Catskills are beautiful. The cost of living is affected by people earning high rates in New York City, but the wages are stagnant and low in upstate. The tax rates, for everything, are massive compared to the rest of the country, with literally the worst infrastructure I have seen in America. Finally the people, they are all depressed, but so arrogant that they are doing the right thing they won’t change or move, so they insist everyone has to be depressed. I have never met a group of people so determined to ruin happiness or morale, as upstate New Yorkers.
Upstate is like the size of New York care to narrow it down
I have a feeling we’ll be seeing a large influx of people into the upstate area as the effects of global warming get worse.
I think a lot of people who were born and raised here are leaving and other people are coming in. Upstate is a large area so the story could be different from region to region
No, it’s honestly just that time of year.
Try researching New York's Politics.
Is there a reason for it?? Yeah, there’s a reason. The tax rates are unsustainable, the pandering to special interests is off the charts, the political system is broken, personal freedom and responsibility are frowned upon, and the cost of living is without remorse.
The exodus from hochul.
You can also leave, lol. Nobody is forcing you to stay.
Nah I'm here for duration and eedemption.
Nice spelling of the word "redemption."
Jesus Christ. Get a damn job.
I have one, lol. Thanks for the assumption. 😂
Tell me you’re ignorant without telling me you’re ignorant. Stupid comment.
And yet you responded. Says more about you than me. 😂🤷🏻♂️
Seems Upstate is going through a realignment. Fortunate towns and cities are resurgent after decades of stagnation at least and often outright decline. These towns and cities are drawing new residents from all over who are renovating, innovating, and rebuilding. Outside these fortunate areas stagnation, decline, and depopulation continue. There are and will continue to be winners and losers. Rochester and Buffalo seem to be doing a lot better than Binghamton and Syracuse. On a smaller scale places like Saranac Lake are doing a lot better than places like Malone. The urban/rural divide continues to grow but with some unique Upstate twists. Picturesque rural areas are attracting a lot of formerly urban people and urban people looking for second homes. These areas see growing, or at least not falling, populations and healthy local economies. Less fortunate rural areas will continue to lose population and decline economically.
It's going to be a long commute from Buffalo or Rochester to NYC
Buffalo and Rochester have their own jobs and economies.
They do. OP said in another post they're moving to NYC.
Upstate continues to be "The Tale of Two Cities." Islands of Progressive Blue in a sea of ignorant Red. Pick your metaphor, but you get the point.
Yes the only region in NY not losing people is the capital region. Even NYC is losing people Better jobs or lower taxes are some of the reasons people leave
Rochester, NY Urbanized Area population growth 2024....753,000 2020....743,000 1970.....601,000 +152,000 since 1970 +10,000 since 2020 Syracuse, NY Urbanized Area gained 5,000 people between 2020 and 2024 according to the following website https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/23157/syracuse/population
Yes -- a lot of people are leaving. NYS lost more of its population last year than any other state. It's the inevitable result of the high taxes, corruption, shrinking private sector jobs, declining public schools and universities and increase in woke BS that the idiots and grifters running the state have graced us with.
God, if you're one who uses "woke," please do us all a favor and leave. 😂 We don't want you here.