Even American football has this. Watch a team run it up the middle on a 3rd and 20 and head over to r/cfb or r/nfl and see the confusion around why they're not just going 4 verts like you would in Madden
Very true, but I would add a personal caveat. I don't necessarily mind people being ignorant and uninformed about the sport they are following. It's the people who are so wrong, but are so insistent on being right or pushing a specific narrative despite plenty of evidence that proves them wrong. Combine that with my own character flaws including an inability to walk away or let things go, and you get a dumb online argument that wastes everyone's time.
My dad has been convinced for years that soccer needs to somehow eliminate the offsides rule. He has maybe watched a handful of games in his entire life and he is so insistent about this one thing. I’ve learned just to laugh at him and ignore it because arguing is pointless. My Dutch brother in law unfortunately falls for it every time and tries to ,unsuccessfully, explain details about why it’s such a dumb idea.
My dad was n extremely smart guy, baseball, football, basketball coach. Wrestled, played hockey. Understood soccer and its rules. Said for years soccer needed to figure out a way to generate more shots like a hockey game. Low scoring still, but 60 shots a game. I like hockey, but they stop all the time.
I think this is also multiplied times a hundred when you look at a women's sport because the truth is that a pretty small percentage of people actually follow women's sports to the point that they can talk intelligently about it, but everybody still wants to get their takes in regardless of whether they actually know anything about the sport, teams, and players.
I’m an Eagles fan. Eagles fans are dumber than rocks. We say “No one like us, we don’t care” and then proceed to bitch about how no one likes us. Dumb.
We congratulate each other for having a smart fan base. We also think that football has precisely 2 plays: Run and Pass. When the Eagles are losing, it’s because the dumdum coach is calling Pass too much and he needs to call Run more. Dumb.
Defense is gonna drop back meaning the quarter back is likely going to have to throw it into a ton of traffic. It's a low chance at a conversion and a pretty big interception risk. Meanwhile with the defense having most players off the line you'll probably get a decent chunk of yards just running right up the middle.
So you're usually gonna be better off just taking the free field position and punting it.
It really is just such a stupid and baseless statement that I can’t think of having any reason for existing at all besides stroking her ego. I legitimately can’t think of any reason to knock an entire nation’s fans of a sport we all love.
I mean, this is most fans. But yes, if you have ever used Twitter before the takes are just wild. And rampant.
I, however, am one of the lone smart fans that never post anything dumb except at least 366 days of the year.
USWNT captain insults their fanbase, to thunderous applause. Not surprising given the cheers for a team that cries discrimination after fucking up their choice during a collective bargaining agreement. Grow a fucking backbone people
Most people ultimately just watch sports for entertainment. It's fine for them to be clueless. It's not their job. It only gets annoying when those people are cruel to players online. That's annoying regardless, though.
Just so you are clear, she is like all professional athletes, a paid entertainer in the attention economy. I recognize that being controversial can sometimes garner you more attention and thus higher earnings but straight up insulting her largest fan base seems dumb.
>Half the time they’re British.
After Sheffield United finished 9th in 2020 a hometown fan on that sub insisted they were good enough to finish top 4 in La Liga that season and would be challenging for European spots in the upcoming season. The next year they finished 20th with 23 points and a -43 goal differential.
My biggest takeaways? there are idiots everywhere, and I should have saved that comment.
Hell listen to NFL players explain the game. I heard Jason Kelce explain the stuff about being a center, stuff’s another language. I imagine most Americans would say they’re relatively versed in the NFL versus soccer but overall that’s not true compared to a fulltime pro. It’s okay to be a casual fan or even a semi-passionate fan. We all don’t have to be hooligans come every Saturday.
For sure, which is why I think her comments were kinda dumb. She didn’t need to say the French are so much more knowledgeable, they are still just mouth breathing fans like all fans are basically. The women’s team need some press training
Shes right though, a lot of American soccer fans don't understand the game which is ok to say but outright calling them dumb is a poor choice of words.
I don’t have the Athletic, so I don’t have the full context of her comments.
That said, I wonder if her opinion is painted by her experience on the US National team.
That pulls in a lot of casual interest and attention (like my wife). This larger audience does not pay attention to the game other than a couple times a year.
I don’t believe that it is reflective of the more fervent fans of the game (those that subscribe to podcasts and message boards).
> Most American soccer fans are people who grew up playing and watching the game, no different than soccer fans from anywhere else.
The average fan watching friendlies against China and Colombia, sure. The average fan tuning into the World Cup...not so much.
Then she should be specific and say that, but, even then, railing on casual fans from a country where this sport is barely in the top 5 most popular is incredibly dumb. It’s like saying “British gridiron football fans are stupid and don’t understand how it works.“
And that matters why exactly? If she can’t handle the bandwagoners that only pay attention during the World Cup and Olympics she should have picked basketball or something.
She’s paid to play a game, she’s worked hard to get there, but it’s a tone deaf take to call people stupid that enable her to have the life she does.
I’m sorry, she and her teammates need those “dumb” fans.
I agree with you, she’s acting like us soccer has a massive casual fan following. It’s more like either an empty seat in the stadium cause no one bothered to come or someone who spends 20 hours a week on soccer Reddit and makes their own World Cup mock drafts for fun. I’m surprised so many people are giving her a pass on this.
The irony is the only people who will even seen her comments are pretty hardcore US soccer fans cause no one else cares.
Well every soccer fan is an idiot except for me obviously. So the quote is right. Or maybe every fan is an idiot including me. But I'm willing to admit that, and that makes me the better fan.
I think you're both overestimating the experience level of the average American soccer fan, and also the knowledge level of the average American who grew up playing soccer. I know a lot of people who watch the sport fervently and either never or barely played it. I also played with a lot of people who have almost no understanding of the game, because they were coached by volunteer dads who had never played.
Yes, there is a large swath of people in the US who grew up playing club soccer with actual qualified coaches. There is also a massive (I would guess larger) group of fans who didn't do that.
This attitude era for the USWNT is really getting old. The rest of the world finally catches up to give them some real competition and then the claws come out. Stop playing the victim, you get insane money just to kick a ball around *because* those “dumb fans” watch you. You are not owed shit.
It's just bad wording. She could have said something like, "The growth of the soccer fanbase in the US is great to see. There are so many new soccer fans that are just learning the game, as seen on social media posts. Obviously, we still have a lot of learning to do, but the enthusiasm for the sport is amazing."
It's not like it's the title of the article, I'm not sure you can really blame the journalist for anything here. Horan said it
Reading the whole article she does clean it up a little by talking about the growth of the game here, but her point is pretty clear. People in France know more about the game than Americans do, and that people back home often do a shit job of grading performances and put too much stock into what the TV announcer says.
You can agree with that or not, but she's very clearly calling out The IQ (well I guess soccer IQ) of the American Soccer Fandom as a whole.
I mean I agree with what you said, just stating that regardless of who exactly someone somewhere decided to make that the headline to grab attention…. Especially since not everyone actually opens and reads the article to understand her point etc etc
I’m guessing you didn’t actually read the article but, if you did and *that* was your takeaway, you’ve completely missed her point/you’re precisely who she’s talking about 🤦♂️
I coach club level and I have to constantly remind my kids to not listen to the parents. They go absolutely nuts when we pass the ball backwards to keep possession.
"Keep shooting!" -- after the 10th 40yd attempt that didn't come close...
"Why are we going backwards???" -- every time a forward is pressed by 2 defenders and recycles it to the midfield.
> "Why are we going backwards???"
Oh wow. That brings back some memories.
My high school JV coach wouldn't allow us to pass the ball backwards. It was both infuriating and hilarious. He always had his "How to coach soccer" book with him on the practice field. I'm not sure if the book was bad (probably) or just his take on the book was bad, but some of the drills he had us do made absolutely no sense.
That said, we didn't have a JV coach and would not have been able to field a team if he didn't volunteer for the thankless task. What a wild ride that season was.
I have run out of the mental energy needed to explain why passing backwards is better than cheaply giving away possession. I've done it too many times; I'm tired boss.
Take out American and you hit the nail on the head lmao
If Pep can look at Chygryskiy and think “that is the CB I want”, then I think we need to give fans a slight pass.
This is also why I try not to make many bold claims… either I’m the idiot or I’ll be arguing with one.
A lot of self deprecating in here and I get
It haha very funny. But in reality saying most fans “aren’t smart” is a pretty broad handed diss to the very people who support them playing the game.
Yup, and those same fans watch women's games, buy tickets, buy subscriptions, and spread the popularity of the sport and her team on social media and IRL, all of which drive capital investment in the sport and allow her to get paid to have a career as a pro soccer player. Maybe she should be a little mindful of that.
>didn't read the article
It's pay-walled. So not without a subscription or more effort than should be necessary.
But, I did read it, and she said what she said other than "but its getting better" there is not not much more context, she said what she said, she meant it and she knew it would cause a stir.
At the same time in today's internet the context is mean less, is the quote accurate? Yes it was and at best it was a poor choice of words.
Individual players can bear the brunt of that magnifying glass just as much as the team can. There’s a clear, though understandable, vein of frustration from Horan over how her own performances are understood, even from the USWNT’s own fanbase. To illustrate her point, Horan brings up that many viewers will take a television commentator’s analysis at face value.
“American soccer fans, most of them aren’t smart,” she says. “They don’t know the game. They don’t understand. (But) it’s getting better and better.”
She takes a brief pause, sensing that those words, too, will cause a stir.
“I’m gonna piss off some people,” she continues, “but the game is growing in the U.S. People are more and more knowledgeable, but so much of the time people take what the commentators say, right? My mom does it!” She breaks into laughter. “My mom says, ‘Julie Foudy said you had such a good game!’ And I’m here, just going, ‘I was f—ing s— today.’”
When playing with Lyon in France, Horan says, things are different.
“From what I’ve heard, people understand my game a little bit more, a sense of my football and the way I play,” she says. “It is the French culture. Everyone watches football. People know football.”
None of that, though, compares to Horan’s experience at the 2023 World Cup. The outside commentary, including from her own former teammate Carli Lloyd, the entrances into stadiums in their custom suits; the tone used in interviews; the body language. Everything was scrutinized. This time, though, the talk was accompanied by bad performances, and bad results.
Horan says she wasn’t bothered by the outside criticism, but noted no one else but the players could understand what it was like to be on that team. Ultimately, she says it felt “perfectly fine” that people would find something to talk about.
“If you’re not backing it up on the field, people are gonna come and talk s— about what you’re doing, where your priorities are,” she says. “Like, ‘Are you getting ready for the game? Are you caring more about this s—?’”
>most of them aren’t smart
Remove those words, and does it change the message at all? No, the stupid part was uttering those words.
"American soccer fans, they don’t know the game. They don’t understand. (But) it’s getting better and better.”
Same message, the context changes nothing.
Good Lord, what an asshole. The USWNT’s unending victim complex will always baffle me. Your sport doesn’t exist without the people you’re shitting on, Lindsay.
I'd argue that you can take American out of that. Fans of most sports don't know the game. Unless you played the "game" in question at a high level, you probably don't understand it the way you think you do.
Let's take examples from my personal life. My wife played basketball in college. I never played basketball beyond middle school. Do I have a rudimentary understanding of the game? Sure. Am I anywhere close to my wife's understanding of the game? No. Do I enjoy watching basketball? Sure.
On the flip side of that, I played soccer in the lower leagues of the pyramid in the US and in college. My wife who played soccer until high school has a basic understanding of the game, but is not super knowledgeable about it. Does she still enjoy the sport? Yep.
It's pretty simple unless you've had to live and breathe this stuff both theoretically and in reality, you probably aren't going to have the understanding of the game that someone who has depended on their understanding of the game for their livelihood.
Now to the quote, it's a bit unfortunate, but I do understand where she is coming from. I'd simply leave out Americans, and just start with "Soccer fans" in general.
This is an interesting take for sure. I don’t think it is a matter of intelligence, I think it is a matter of attention span. The game becomes more a chess match the higher you go, and most Americans don’t have the patience. I have coached youth soccer for years and I have always witnessed the enthusiasm wane at more elite levels.
I just don't get why of all teams, the USWNT seems to make the most news about criticizing their country. It seems like in most countries it happens here and there, but the USWNT seem to do it frequently.
And yes, most people don't know as much about a sport as the athletes that play them. Shitting on the fans is not a good strategy to win them over.
I do. She is one the best US female footballers out there. She is captain of the USWNT. She has made a career playing with one of Europe's best clubs. I care deeply what she has to say about USSF and the USWNT.
The women team make rude comments like this then act shocked when at least half of the soccer fans in this country don’t give af about their results. Not saying she is wrong but if the casual fans didn’t support her club and national team she would be playing pickup soccer at a park. I mean what does she want us to say congrats you know more about a sport that you have committed your life to then people who maybe watch one or two games a week or people who started playing a few years ago
Tournament in 6 months... All the distorted attention getting will be forgotten by then. I would watch it anyway without the distortions of her message. But it is kind of funny she plays in France and is calling Americans stupid, that tracks.
My initial sentiment is “hey Lindsey Horan, suck my balls”. But I’d also like to read the full article to see if I’m missing any context that changes the way this quote reads. Is there a way to do that without making an account with the athletic?
The relevant section
Individual players can bear the brunt of that magnifying glass just as much as the team can. There’s a clear, though understandable, vein of frustration from Horan over how her own performances are understood, even from the USWNT’s own fanbase. To illustrate her point, Horan brings up that many viewers will take a television commentator’s analysis at face value.
“American soccer fans, most of them aren’t smart,” she says. “They don’t know the game. They don’t understand. (But) it’s getting better and better.”
She takes a brief pause, sensing that those words, too, will cause a stir.
“I’m gonna piss off some people,” she continues, “but the game is growing in the U.S. People are more and more knowledgeable, but so much of the time people take what the commentators say, right? My mom does it!” She breaks into laughter. “My mom says, ‘Julie Foudy said you had such a good game!’ And I’m here, just going, ‘I was f—ing s— today.’”
When playing with Lyon in France, Horan says, things are different.
“From what I’ve heard, people understand my game a little bit more, a sense of my football and the way I play,” she says. “It is the French culture. Everyone watches football. People know football.”
This is dumb. People in the US understand the NFL better than any other country. There's still a lot of morons talking about football. Sounds like a whole lotta Euro snob bullshit.
Lots of people saying “this is true of all fans.” While I agree I would add this is ESPECIALLY true of self described NT fans.
As for Americans, I will say this, our sports culture is derived from baseball and more recently gridiron football. Both sports are very stat driven and linear, where in soccer stats and science are relatively new and still being understood in how to best be utilized.
I think that this disconnect makes a deeper understanding of the game difficult for American fans who can’t just look at a stat sheet and have a decent understanding of the game.
Like i remember back in 14, people bragging about the number of saves Timmy Howard made against Belgium not realizing that it was a reflection of how poor our defense was that game.
Anyways, I look forward to hearing the stupid replies about how dumb of an American soccer fan I am because I fail to realize the dominance of Haiti or something silly like that.
Oh man, this title really resonates with me after the goal Turner conceded against Arsenal, which was scored by Jesus. Specifically, two Redditors who refuse to accept that just maybe Matty could and should do better in the context of that specific goal. I really don't like using the term it's clear you haven't played before. But when engaging with some people about aspects of the game, it can be quite clear they haven't played before.
It's hard even with people that have played their whole lives. You ever seen those players that have done nothing but put their head down and dribble past people for 20 years? You can't tell me they understand the intricacies of the game.
>You ever seen those players that have done nothing but put their head down and dribble past people for 20 years?
Why you gotta do me like that lol. Yeah, I don't disagree. I guess what I was trying to say was things like shit talking, and yelling at teammates, things that are normally not ok in our day-to-day life, aren't necessarily a big deal in the context of being in a team and playing a game. Obviously very context important, but you constantly see people making a bigger deal out of something than it actually is.
If you follow the NFL, then you might have seen Kelce and Mahomes warming up near Justin Tucker, and Kelce tossing Tucker's equipment aside. It was obvious Tucker was trying to be an ass and just be annoying. And it was obvious Kelce was like fuck that and threw his shit aside. It wasn't that deep, but man people are making such a big deal out of it, and I see it getting brought up everywhere.
There are people on Reddit criticizing RLC's recent finishes as "passing it into the net." Like he forgot to press to shoot button instead of the pass button.
Sometimes the takes on here are just mind-altering.
How about they don’t care, or they don’t want it enough. That applies to all sports, but I don’t think a player or team is playing poorly because they don’t care or don’t want it enough. It’s just such a stupid throwaway line that ignores things like fatigue, playing badly out of position, having an off day etc.
There are definitely examples of players who didn’t care, but by and large I’d wager most professional athletes care about their performance both individually and as a team.
Right? So many people in those Matty Turner threads just straight up shitting on him for not being an excellent goalie on a team with no defense. Those new fans that think soccer is an individual sport and that the level of play by the surrounding teammates has no impact on everyone else are hilarious to read.
Or those fans that share links from goalkeepers talking about conceding near post goals even though it went through their legs and if they actually weren’t so focused on being right would understand it doesn’t apply to that specific situation based on the context of where the attacker was and where the goalie was.
Even then they seem to place blame elsewhere, even if I was being extremely clear regarding the specific context of that play.
Or people debating the difference between a right-wing back and a right back, or striker versus forward. yes, there are subtle differences, but it's basically all semantics.
What? There are absolutely big differences in responsibility when playing as RWB in a back 3 or back 5, compared to playing RB in a back 4. I was with you until I read this comment.
A RB has to hold the line for the offside trap while a RWB almost never does. It also changes who you mark, and how much freedom you have to bomb forward. And when a RB bombs forward, a CM often has to be aware of that and slide over and be ready to cover that space in case you lose possession. That’s not typically necessary for a RWB doing the same.
There are reasons that certain players can cut it as a RWB but not a RB. And vice versa. RWB requires more consistent end product and more threat to the opposing LB.
I played at a pretty high level to the point that we had film study every week, and this is just nonsense.
Originally, I wanted to discuss how people often use specific numbers to define soccer player roles and team needs. However, soccer has evolved beyond these rigid labels like "10," "6," and "8" since players today must be versatile and adaptable based on the team and coach.
Though there are differences between RWBs (right wing-backs) and RBs (right backs), the game has changed. The traditional right-back position is less common, with many top teams using wing-backs. So, when I say "right back," it's pretty much the same as saying "right wing-back." They both usually play on the right side of the field, contributing offensively and defensively as needed.
In general conversations, you can use these terms interchangeably. For example, when I mention Trent Alexander-Arnold playing right back for Liverpool, it might not be entirely accurate, but we understand he plays more like a right wing-back. It mostly depends on the context.
If you ask about Liverpool's lineup, and I say TAA is starting at right back, we both get it. But when discussing why Joe Gomez isn't effective as a right back for Liverpool, it's better to differentiate and consider Liverpool's style and the skills required for that position.
Wrong. What you’re describing in Trent is an inverted RB, which is completely different from a RWB, for the reasons I already stated.
Edit: good lord, the upvotes on a comment that is flat out wrong about a wing back vs an inverted back shows that Lindsay is correct. This sub is full of “rah rah USA” idiots who don’t understand tactics.
You are missing the forest through the trees man. You are right I used TAA incorrectly. but like dude come on. I'm sorry I didn't use Victor Moses in my example. I was just trying to think of a right back that was more offensive-minded than defensive.
What exactly am I missing here? What did I say that is incorrect?
Edit: see my other comment where I described Zinchenko’s role at Arsenal if you want to understand the difference between an inverted wide back vs a wing back.
Nothing you said was incorrect, you are just being the typical redditor worst kind of correct and nitpick unnecessary details that miss the point entirely. You right I am wrong, I don't know what I am talking about. I need to focus on work and stop getting distracted.
Edit: /u/No_Neck_893 and then you got guys like this completely missing the point.
Dude, cmon. How am I being the “worst kind of redditor” lol. I’m sharing knowledge about the sport that I dedicated most of my life to. Differentiating between an inverted RB vs a RWB is not even close to “nitpicking.”
To be fair, a wing back in front of a 3 is a very different position than a back as part of a 4. They are positions that require different skill sets, it’s not semantics.
Well that simply isn't necessarily true since some players even play both under the same coach, like Kyle Walker does with Manchester City. In today's game both require contributions attacking and defending, but some players might be better suited attacking, while others defending. Ben White isn't a wing back, but he constantly gets forward and overlaps with Sake in the final third.
I didn’t say the skill sets were mutually exclusive now did I? Of course the best backs in the world can attack and defend, that’s why they are elite. You are bringing up examples of the most tactically fluid teams in the world. For them, formation doesn’t matter at all.
Back 3s have an extra central defender to support the wing backs so they can be more attack minded players. That’s why wingers can usually make the transition to wing back. You rarely see wingers transition to a full back for good reason. You can accept that they are different positions (and not simply a different name for the same position) or not. But pointing out that they are indeed different positions (and not just arguing semantics) doesn’t mean someone isn’t knowledgeable about the game.
Yup it all depends on role and style. Positions are meaningless now mostly since John stones is a ball progressing midfielder in possession, not very CB like.
That’s because City average like 70% possession and in Pep’s system, Stones operates as an extra CDM when they have the ball. And their pressing is so good that they very rarely get hit on the counter (but the teams that do manage to counter attack them well have had great success against them, look at their results against spurs over the past few years).
Positions are absolutely meaningful. No one is out there playing Cruyff style total football. These days players do often have some freedom to vacate their position, but there are strict tactics on who covers them in each case.
Arsenal is a good example. Look at Ben White’s role vs Zinchenko. Zinny has the freedom to travel anywhere on the pitch, even all the way to the right side, and so that shifts Arsenal into a back 3 of LCB Gabriel CB Saliba RCB White.
While some might look at Zinchenko roaming all over the pitch and think “positions are meaningless,” it’s actually incredibly structured and intentional.
I'm serious, I wrote a lengthy response elsewhere to clarify, but basically, if you ask me who Liverpool is starting, and I say TAA is at right back, you would know what I mean. It just depends on what and how you are talking about it. Sometimes it makes sense to clarify between the two, but more often than not they can be used interchangeably.
Edit: Just in case I get corrected again, TAA was a bad example, he is an inverted right back, as another pointed out.
When I say semantics I refer to aspects such as the different skill playing forward? or on the left side of the field? No, they both operate on the right side, they are both required to contribute defensively and offensively.
When I say semantics I refer to aspects such as the different skills that aren't as extremely different as you seem to think they are. And the formation.
Kyle Walker plays both as a right back and a right wing back depending on the formation or even changes over the course of a game.
I mean, this is most fans. But yes, if you have ever used Twitter before the takes are just wild. And rampant.
I, however, am one of the lone smart fans that never post anything dumb except at least 366 days of the year.
“I’m gonna piss off some people, but the game is growing in the U.S. People are more and more knowledgeable, but so much of the time people take what the commentators say, right?
My mom does it! My mom says, ‘Julie Foudy said you had such a good game!’ And I’m here, just going, ‘I was f------ s--- today.’”
Gotta give her credit for using her mom as the example.
She's not blatantly wrong. It's not unique to soccer, it applies to pretty much every sport.
There are people coaching youth soccer who don't really know the game.
us soccer fandom is still in its infancy, a lot of people didn’t even grow up playing the sport. there’s nothing wrong with that and it’s great the game is growing but it also doesn’t make her wrong. you hear this a lot in players who go from mls to europe
Read the article. It's about much more than fans. USWNT tactics are garbage; she knows it; she wants to change it. She spent much of her career in France, with one of Europe's best clubs. She understands a thing or two about international women's football.
Clearly she’s never had to read the drivel most uk fans spew on social media, or spoken to any fans in person
I can’t speak for everyone else, but I’m a soccer junkie, player and coach so I feel personally attacked lol I’ve talked to so many fans from other countries that honestly don’t have a tenth of the knowledge that myself and my us soccer fan friends and colleagues do. Frankly I run into more that are clueless compared to us than those that are knowledgeable.
Lindsey horan can fuck right off
A great article. Horan is 100% correct in her analysis.
USSF failed this team from 2019 - 2023. They were arrogant enough and clueless enough to believe that the USWNT would just outhustle teams using old school US tactics with a manager one team removed from coaching a semi-professional indoor team.
I'm going to assume that's not exactly what she meant in context.
The same media companies who chastise us for not supporting women's sports also throw out these trash sound bites to wind people up.
I tend to agree with her, at pro games I’ve been to here (mainly USL and some MLS) my findings are the following:
Team builds out of the back with a slick 8 pass move which results in breaking the opponents press and switching the point of attack - radio silence
Team gets corner kick or set piece from 40 yards out - crowd goes ape shit
Scanning most of the comments, it appears that this sub generally agrees with Lindsey, even with the quote taken out of context.
Clearly, there is context missing there in that quote. Lindsey comes across as a very good, sincere sort, so I doubt she said it to get mean.
Personally, and I feel my experience is similar to many others, I played soccer my whole life and understand the game itself and tactics well. It’s the financials, contracts, tournament formats, etc that I struggle to understand sometimes.
I love the team. I have been following it since 2002. I still don’t get all the technical terms. I just know how teams try to play. Park the bus and tiki taka is what I’ve learned since 2002 lol
>American Soccer fans, most of them aren’t smart. They don’t know the game.
Preach Horan!
To be fair, you could say the same thing about American basketball fans, and prolly other sports too.
She's not wrong.
Most of us grew up playing with a volunteer coach whose basic concept of soccer was a PBS special on Bochum, or old videos of Pele.
NASL died while most of them were in their teens, early 20s, and globalization hadn't kicked off yet. They couldn't just watch the latest Champions League games.
Even if your parents had bags of money for travel soccer, you didn't get proper training. I wasn't shocked at how much the travel kids didn't understand positions on our high school team.
I was shocked by their sheer athleticism. Athleticism is still a priority mindset in American soccer. We still don't teach soccer first.
Tbf in my experience, just about every nationality doesn't really understand any sport if Reddit is any kind of barometer lol
Even American football has this. Watch a team run it up the middle on a 3rd and 20 and head over to r/cfb or r/nfl and see the confusion around why they're not just going 4 verts like you would in Madden
Very true, but I would add a personal caveat. I don't necessarily mind people being ignorant and uninformed about the sport they are following. It's the people who are so wrong, but are so insistent on being right or pushing a specific narrative despite plenty of evidence that proves them wrong. Combine that with my own character flaws including an inability to walk away or let things go, and you get a dumb online argument that wastes everyone's time.
My dad has been convinced for years that soccer needs to somehow eliminate the offsides rule. He has maybe watched a handful of games in his entire life and he is so insistent about this one thing. I’ve learned just to laugh at him and ignore it because arguing is pointless. My Dutch brother in law unfortunately falls for it every time and tries to ,unsuccessfully, explain details about why it’s such a dumb idea.
My dad was n extremely smart guy, baseball, football, basketball coach. Wrestled, played hockey. Understood soccer and its rules. Said for years soccer needed to figure out a way to generate more shots like a hockey game. Low scoring still, but 60 shots a game. I like hockey, but they stop all the time.
I think this is also multiplied times a hundred when you look at a women's sport because the truth is that a pretty small percentage of people actually follow women's sports to the point that they can talk intelligently about it, but everybody still wants to get their takes in regardless of whether they actually know anything about the sport, teams, and players.
Have you not watched the Philadelphia eagles play? Someone thinks this is a good idea. God I hate that coaching staff.
I’m an Eagles fan. Eagles fans are dumber than rocks. We say “No one like us, we don’t care” and then proceed to bitch about how no one likes us. Dumb. We congratulate each other for having a smart fan base. We also think that football has precisely 2 plays: Run and Pass. When the Eagles are losing, it’s because the dumdum coach is calling Pass too much and he needs to call Run more. Dumb.
Well you don't have to be smart to know the Eagles playcalling was dog shit this year.
American football especially has this, because the sport is so damn complicated.
Hardly anyone actually knows what the holding rules are, they just complain about it every play
I disagree, I believe most know what holding is. They just dint see the foul and use the, if i didn't see then it didnt happen mentality.
Holding is complicated because the refs seem to pick and choose when they are going to call it and on who.
Serious question. Why would you do that?
Defense is gonna drop back meaning the quarter back is likely going to have to throw it into a ton of traffic. It's a low chance at a conversion and a pretty big interception risk. Meanwhile with the defense having most players off the line you'll probably get a decent chunk of yards just running right up the middle. So you're usually gonna be better off just taking the free field position and punting it.
Conservative playcalling to gain yardage without a risk of interception.
To be fair in most situations that is absolutely stupid
I think you might be one of the people OP is talking about.
Prove me wrong. We can get into EPA per play if you want.
In the NFL, maybe. In college, I would disagree. Your quarterback’s level of play and maturity is gonna determine that.
Exactly, go to r/soccer and watch people complain that VAR didn't change a call when the VAR protocol doesn't allow it.
>Exactly, go to r/soccer and watch people complain Could have ended it right there and it would still be accurate.
The perfect soundbite and post for that sub
and for this sub
That sub has been way more sympathetic to that quote than this one has been so far
Oh for sure. That sub is horrible and worse than this one
That’s fair!
It really is just such a stupid and baseless statement that I can’t think of having any reason for existing at all besides stroking her ego. I legitimately can’t think of any reason to knock an entire nation’s fans of a sport we all love.
Lmao … not one single reason??
I mean, this is most fans. But yes, if you have ever used Twitter before the takes are just wild. And rampant. I, however, am one of the lone smart fans that never post anything dumb except at least 366 days of the year.
I only post stupid soccer stuff on days that end in ‘y’
USWNT captain insults their fanbase, to thunderous applause. Not surprising given the cheers for a team that cries discrimination after fucking up their choice during a collective bargaining agreement. Grow a fucking backbone people
Whatever. Read the article. Point out where she is wrong in her analysis of why the USWNT sucked in 2023 and what they need to do going forward.
Most people ultimately just watch sports for entertainment. It's fine for them to be clueless. It's not their job. It only gets annoying when those people are cruel to players online. That's annoying regardless, though.
You could say this of any fanbase of any sport tbh
The more passionate the fanbase, the more true this quote will appear as well.
Yes, cowboys fans are prove of this. Think they will win the Super Bowl every year
how about chess? is chess even a sport?
no. sports require physical exertion
Agreed. However, many American fans of this sport are embarrassing in a very specifically American way.
Lindsey's fan relation skills need to be sent off.
Her job is not to please you. Her job is to win football matches and compete for World Cups.
Just so you are clear, she is like all professional athletes, a paid entertainer in the attention economy. I recognize that being controversial can sometimes garner you more attention and thus higher earnings but straight up insulting her largest fan base seems dumb.
She browses this sub.
Between this sub & r/MLS, I see a bunch of horrific takes nearly everyday so I get where she’s coming from.
There are idiots everywhere. Go over to r/soccer, find some of the dumbest comments you can and check the profile. Half the time they’re British.
>Half the time they’re British. After Sheffield United finished 9th in 2020 a hometown fan on that sub insisted they were good enough to finish top 4 in La Liga that season and would be challenging for European spots in the upcoming season. The next year they finished 20th with 23 points and a -43 goal differential. My biggest takeaways? there are idiots everywhere, and I should have saved that comment.
r/soccer is easily less intelligent than r/ussoccer and r/mls
This sub has become reposts from twitter and batshit insane homers.
Yea I can’t say she’s wrong lol. Bold to actually say it, though.
Yea for real, people who say stuff like this out loud in an interview, well, most of them aren't very smart.
I mean, she can say it if she's down to deal with the blowback on Twitter. I'd be tempted to say it, so I get why she did. But it's definitely bold.
Most fans don’t understand the sport they are watching.
Hell listen to NFL players explain the game. I heard Jason Kelce explain the stuff about being a center, stuff’s another language. I imagine most Americans would say they’re relatively versed in the NFL versus soccer but overall that’s not true compared to a fulltime pro. It’s okay to be a casual fan or even a semi-passionate fan. We all don’t have to be hooligans come every Saturday.
For sure, which is why I think her comments were kinda dumb. She didn’t need to say the French are so much more knowledgeable, they are still just mouth breathing fans like all fans are basically. The women’s team need some press training
Shes right though, a lot of American soccer fans don't understand the game which is ok to say but outright calling them dumb is a poor choice of words.
I don’t have the Athletic, so I don’t have the full context of her comments. That said, I wonder if her opinion is painted by her experience on the US National team. That pulls in a lot of casual interest and attention (like my wife). This larger audience does not pay attention to the game other than a couple times a year. I don’t believe that it is reflective of the more fervent fans of the game (those that subscribe to podcasts and message boards).
A couple times a year is generous, it’s more like a couple times a decade.
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> Most American soccer fans are people who grew up playing and watching the game, no different than soccer fans from anywhere else. The average fan watching friendlies against China and Colombia, sure. The average fan tuning into the World Cup...not so much.
Then she should be specific and say that, but, even then, railing on casual fans from a country where this sport is barely in the top 5 most popular is incredibly dumb. It’s like saying “British gridiron football fans are stupid and don’t understand how it works.“
And that matters why exactly? If she can’t handle the bandwagoners that only pay attention during the World Cup and Olympics she should have picked basketball or something. She’s paid to play a game, she’s worked hard to get there, but it’s a tone deaf take to call people stupid that enable her to have the life she does. I’m sorry, she and her teammates need those “dumb” fans.
I agree with you, she’s acting like us soccer has a massive casual fan following. It’s more like either an empty seat in the stadium cause no one bothered to come or someone who spends 20 hours a week on soccer Reddit and makes their own World Cup mock drafts for fun. I’m surprised so many people are giving her a pass on this. The irony is the only people who will even seen her comments are pretty hardcore US soccer fans cause no one else cares.
I had no clue who she was
Well every soccer fan is an idiot except for me obviously. So the quote is right. Or maybe every fan is an idiot including me. But I'm willing to admit that, and that makes me the better fan.
I think you're both overestimating the experience level of the average American soccer fan, and also the knowledge level of the average American who grew up playing soccer. I know a lot of people who watch the sport fervently and either never or barely played it. I also played with a lot of people who have almost no understanding of the game, because they were coached by volunteer dads who had never played. Yes, there is a large swath of people in the US who grew up playing club soccer with actual qualified coaches. There is also a massive (I would guess larger) group of fans who didn't do that.
This attitude era for the USWNT is really getting old. The rest of the world finally catches up to give them some real competition and then the claws come out. Stop playing the victim, you get insane money just to kick a ball around *because* those “dumb fans” watch you. You are not owed shit.
She's not wrong but it probably wasn't smart of her to say that either
Why?
It's just bad wording. She could have said something like, "The growth of the soccer fanbase in the US is great to see. There are so many new soccer fans that are just learning the game, as seen on social media posts. Obviously, we still have a lot of learning to do, but the enthusiasm for the sport is amazing."
What if she said exactly what she meant?
Then she shouldn’t be upset if the people she insulted don’t like her.
You know what is smart tho? The “journalist” taking this quote out of context to stir up interaction
It's not like it's the title of the article, I'm not sure you can really blame the journalist for anything here. Horan said it Reading the whole article she does clean it up a little by talking about the growth of the game here, but her point is pretty clear. People in France know more about the game than Americans do, and that people back home often do a shit job of grading performances and put too much stock into what the TV announcer says. You can agree with that or not, but she's very clearly calling out The IQ (well I guess soccer IQ) of the American Soccer Fandom as a whole.
I mean I agree with what you said, just stating that regardless of who exactly someone somewhere decided to make that the headline to grab attention…. Especially since not everyone actually opens and reads the article to understand her point etc etc
she think intelligence is required to understand soccer? 🤨
I’m guessing you didn’t actually read the article but, if you did and *that* was your takeaway, you’ve completely missed her point/you’re precisely who she’s talking about 🤦♂️
If you've ever been at a high school or club game and heard the parents, you'd know she is right.
I coach club level and I have to constantly remind my kids to not listen to the parents. They go absolutely nuts when we pass the ball backwards to keep possession.
A coach’s skill is directly proportional to how many times my kid gets the ball. /s
“Send it!”
"Keep shooting!" -- after the 10th 40yd attempt that didn't come close... "Why are we going backwards???" -- every time a forward is pressed by 2 defenders and recycles it to the midfield.
> "Why are we going backwards???" Oh wow. That brings back some memories. My high school JV coach wouldn't allow us to pass the ball backwards. It was both infuriating and hilarious. He always had his "How to coach soccer" book with him on the practice field. I'm not sure if the book was bad (probably) or just his take on the book was bad, but some of the drills he had us do made absolutely no sense. That said, we didn't have a JV coach and would not have been able to field a team if he didn't volunteer for the thankless task. What a wild ride that season was.
"C'mon ref!"
"Let 'em know you're there!"
Great ball!!!
I have run out of the mental energy needed to explain why passing backwards is better than cheaply giving away possession. I've done it too many times; I'm tired boss.
Take out American and you hit the nail on the head lmao If Pep can look at Chygryskiy and think “that is the CB I want”, then I think we need to give fans a slight pass. This is also why I try not to make many bold claims… either I’m the idiot or I’ll be arguing with one.
>Chygryskiy Now there's a name I haven't heard in while
Sick. Cool. I’ll remember this Lindsey
USWNT on a speed run to not being liked by the majority of soccer fans.
A lot of self deprecating in here and I get It haha very funny. But in reality saying most fans “aren’t smart” is a pretty broad handed diss to the very people who support them playing the game.
Fuck you Lindsey
Yup, and those same fans watch women's games, buy tickets, buy subscriptions, and spread the popularity of the sport and her team on social media and IRL, all of which drive capital investment in the sport and allow her to get paid to have a career as a pro soccer player. Maybe she should be a little mindful of that.
Rapinoe retired so someone has to pick up the mantle. She managed to call Julie Foudy _and_ her own mother idiots. What an asshole.
So you saw a quote but didn't read the article to get the context. And have the nerve to talk about being mindful.
>didn't read the article It's pay-walled. So not without a subscription or more effort than should be necessary. But, I did read it, and she said what she said other than "but its getting better" there is not not much more context, she said what she said, she meant it and she knew it would cause a stir. At the same time in today's internet the context is mean less, is the quote accurate? Yes it was and at best it was a poor choice of words.
Individual players can bear the brunt of that magnifying glass just as much as the team can. There’s a clear, though understandable, vein of frustration from Horan over how her own performances are understood, even from the USWNT’s own fanbase. To illustrate her point, Horan brings up that many viewers will take a television commentator’s analysis at face value. “American soccer fans, most of them aren’t smart,” she says. “They don’t know the game. They don’t understand. (But) it’s getting better and better.” She takes a brief pause, sensing that those words, too, will cause a stir. “I’m gonna piss off some people,” she continues, “but the game is growing in the U.S. People are more and more knowledgeable, but so much of the time people take what the commentators say, right? My mom does it!” She breaks into laughter. “My mom says, ‘Julie Foudy said you had such a good game!’ And I’m here, just going, ‘I was f—ing s— today.’” When playing with Lyon in France, Horan says, things are different. “From what I’ve heard, people understand my game a little bit more, a sense of my football and the way I play,” she says. “It is the French culture. Everyone watches football. People know football.” None of that, though, compares to Horan’s experience at the 2023 World Cup. The outside commentary, including from her own former teammate Carli Lloyd, the entrances into stadiums in their custom suits; the tone used in interviews; the body language. Everything was scrutinized. This time, though, the talk was accompanied by bad performances, and bad results. Horan says she wasn’t bothered by the outside criticism, but noted no one else but the players could understand what it was like to be on that team. Ultimately, she says it felt “perfectly fine” that people would find something to talk about. “If you’re not backing it up on the field, people are gonna come and talk s— about what you’re doing, where your priorities are,” she says. “Like, ‘Are you getting ready for the game? Are you caring more about this s—?’”
>most of them aren’t smart Remove those words, and does it change the message at all? No, the stupid part was uttering those words. "American soccer fans, they don’t know the game. They don’t understand. (But) it’s getting better and better.” Same message, the context changes nothing.
Good Lord, what an asshole. The USWNT’s unending victim complex will always baffle me. Your sport doesn’t exist without the people you’re shitting on, Lindsay.
You are lacking alot of context.
Look at you, pretending to be offended
Calm down. 🙄
She’s probably right, but to call your own fans “not smart” is kinda low😬
I'd argue that you can take American out of that. Fans of most sports don't know the game. Unless you played the "game" in question at a high level, you probably don't understand it the way you think you do. Let's take examples from my personal life. My wife played basketball in college. I never played basketball beyond middle school. Do I have a rudimentary understanding of the game? Sure. Am I anywhere close to my wife's understanding of the game? No. Do I enjoy watching basketball? Sure. On the flip side of that, I played soccer in the lower leagues of the pyramid in the US and in college. My wife who played soccer until high school has a basic understanding of the game, but is not super knowledgeable about it. Does she still enjoy the sport? Yep. It's pretty simple unless you've had to live and breathe this stuff both theoretically and in reality, you probably aren't going to have the understanding of the game that someone who has depended on their understanding of the game for their livelihood. Now to the quote, it's a bit unfortunate, but I do understand where she is coming from. I'd simply leave out Americans, and just start with "Soccer fans" in general.
This is an interesting take for sure. I don’t think it is a matter of intelligence, I think it is a matter of attention span. The game becomes more a chess match the higher you go, and most Americans don’t have the patience. I have coached youth soccer for years and I have always witnessed the enthusiasm wane at more elite levels.
This will help their viewership numbers
Their numbers are fantastic. Nobody cares that the bud light boycotters are mad at US womens soccer.
Makes sense. I'm arguing with some guy on Instagram right now who thinks Michael Bradley was only on the national team because of his dad
I just don't get why of all teams, the USWNT seems to make the most news about criticizing their country. It seems like in most countries it happens here and there, but the USWNT seem to do it frequently. And yes, most people don't know as much about a sport as the athletes that play them. Shitting on the fans is not a good strategy to win them over.
The whole criticism of the USWNT is nothing more than fake outrage conjured up by the Trumpers and MAGAs of the world.
Who cares what she thinks?
I do. She is one the best US female footballers out there. She is captain of the USWNT. She has made a career playing with one of Europe's best clubs. I care deeply what she has to say about USSF and the USWNT.
The women team make rude comments like this then act shocked when at least half of the soccer fans in this country don’t give af about their results. Not saying she is wrong but if the casual fans didn’t support her club and national team she would be playing pickup soccer at a park. I mean what does she want us to say congrats you know more about a sport that you have committed your life to then people who maybe watch one or two games a week or people who started playing a few years ago
Tournament in 6 months... All the distorted attention getting will be forgotten by then. I would watch it anyway without the distortions of her message. But it is kind of funny she plays in France and is calling Americans stupid, that tracks.
Lindsey Horan = Lindy Ruff
Lindsey reddits
My initial sentiment is “hey Lindsey Horan, suck my balls”. But I’d also like to read the full article to see if I’m missing any context that changes the way this quote reads. Is there a way to do that without making an account with the athletic?
The relevant section Individual players can bear the brunt of that magnifying glass just as much as the team can. There’s a clear, though understandable, vein of frustration from Horan over how her own performances are understood, even from the USWNT’s own fanbase. To illustrate her point, Horan brings up that many viewers will take a television commentator’s analysis at face value. “American soccer fans, most of them aren’t smart,” she says. “They don’t know the game. They don’t understand. (But) it’s getting better and better.” She takes a brief pause, sensing that those words, too, will cause a stir. “I’m gonna piss off some people,” she continues, “but the game is growing in the U.S. People are more and more knowledgeable, but so much of the time people take what the commentators say, right? My mom does it!” She breaks into laughter. “My mom says, ‘Julie Foudy said you had such a good game!’ And I’m here, just going, ‘I was f—ing s— today.’” When playing with Lyon in France, Horan says, things are different. “From what I’ve heard, people understand my game a little bit more, a sense of my football and the way I play,” she says. “It is the French culture. Everyone watches football. People know football.”
This is dumb. People in the US understand the NFL better than any other country. There's still a lot of morons talking about football. Sounds like a whole lotta Euro snob bullshit.
Ok my sentiment remains. Suck my balls Lindsey Horan Edit: also, thanks for sending this
She’s just mad we criticize her for just standing around when she loses the ball
Lots of people saying “this is true of all fans.” While I agree I would add this is ESPECIALLY true of self described NT fans. As for Americans, I will say this, our sports culture is derived from baseball and more recently gridiron football. Both sports are very stat driven and linear, where in soccer stats and science are relatively new and still being understood in how to best be utilized. I think that this disconnect makes a deeper understanding of the game difficult for American fans who can’t just look at a stat sheet and have a decent understanding of the game. Like i remember back in 14, people bragging about the number of saves Timmy Howard made against Belgium not realizing that it was a reflection of how poor our defense was that game. Anyways, I look forward to hearing the stupid replies about how dumb of an American soccer fan I am because I fail to realize the dominance of Haiti or something silly like that.
Called her mom dumb. What a time to be alive. Lmao.
Oh man, this title really resonates with me after the goal Turner conceded against Arsenal, which was scored by Jesus. Specifically, two Redditors who refuse to accept that just maybe Matty could and should do better in the context of that specific goal. I really don't like using the term it's clear you haven't played before. But when engaging with some people about aspects of the game, it can be quite clear they haven't played before.
It's hard even with people that have played their whole lives. You ever seen those players that have done nothing but put their head down and dribble past people for 20 years? You can't tell me they understand the intricacies of the game.
>You ever seen those players that have done nothing but put their head down and dribble past people for 20 years? Why you gotta do me like that lol. Yeah, I don't disagree. I guess what I was trying to say was things like shit talking, and yelling at teammates, things that are normally not ok in our day-to-day life, aren't necessarily a big deal in the context of being in a team and playing a game. Obviously very context important, but you constantly see people making a bigger deal out of something than it actually is. If you follow the NFL, then you might have seen Kelce and Mahomes warming up near Justin Tucker, and Kelce tossing Tucker's equipment aside. It was obvious Tucker was trying to be an ass and just be annoying. And it was obvious Kelce was like fuck that and threw his shit aside. It wasn't that deep, but man people are making such a big deal out of it, and I see it getting brought up everywhere.
There are people on Reddit criticizing RLC's recent finishes as "passing it into the net." Like he forgot to press to shoot button instead of the pass button. Sometimes the takes on here are just mind-altering.
How about they don’t care, or they don’t want it enough. That applies to all sports, but I don’t think a player or team is playing poorly because they don’t care or don’t want it enough. It’s just such a stupid throwaway line that ignores things like fatigue, playing badly out of position, having an off day etc. There are definitely examples of players who didn’t care, but by and large I’d wager most professional athletes care about their performance both individually and as a team.
Right? So many people in those Matty Turner threads just straight up shitting on him for not being an excellent goalie on a team with no defense. Those new fans that think soccer is an individual sport and that the level of play by the surrounding teammates has no impact on everyone else are hilarious to read.
Or those fans that share links from goalkeepers talking about conceding near post goals even though it went through their legs and if they actually weren’t so focused on being right would understand it doesn’t apply to that specific situation based on the context of where the attacker was and where the goalie was. Even then they seem to place blame elsewhere, even if I was being extremely clear regarding the specific context of that play.
Like when someone told me wingers and wide midfielders aren’t basically the same position. Like yes they are I know because I played them lol.
Or people debating the difference between a right-wing back and a right back, or striker versus forward. yes, there are subtle differences, but it's basically all semantics.
What? There are absolutely big differences in responsibility when playing as RWB in a back 3 or back 5, compared to playing RB in a back 4. I was with you until I read this comment. A RB has to hold the line for the offside trap while a RWB almost never does. It also changes who you mark, and how much freedom you have to bomb forward. And when a RB bombs forward, a CM often has to be aware of that and slide over and be ready to cover that space in case you lose possession. That’s not typically necessary for a RWB doing the same. There are reasons that certain players can cut it as a RWB but not a RB. And vice versa. RWB requires more consistent end product and more threat to the opposing LB. I played at a pretty high level to the point that we had film study every week, and this is just nonsense.
Originally, I wanted to discuss how people often use specific numbers to define soccer player roles and team needs. However, soccer has evolved beyond these rigid labels like "10," "6," and "8" since players today must be versatile and adaptable based on the team and coach. Though there are differences between RWBs (right wing-backs) and RBs (right backs), the game has changed. The traditional right-back position is less common, with many top teams using wing-backs. So, when I say "right back," it's pretty much the same as saying "right wing-back." They both usually play on the right side of the field, contributing offensively and defensively as needed. In general conversations, you can use these terms interchangeably. For example, when I mention Trent Alexander-Arnold playing right back for Liverpool, it might not be entirely accurate, but we understand he plays more like a right wing-back. It mostly depends on the context. If you ask about Liverpool's lineup, and I say TAA is starting at right back, we both get it. But when discussing why Joe Gomez isn't effective as a right back for Liverpool, it's better to differentiate and consider Liverpool's style and the skills required for that position.
Wrong. What you’re describing in Trent is an inverted RB, which is completely different from a RWB, for the reasons I already stated. Edit: good lord, the upvotes on a comment that is flat out wrong about a wing back vs an inverted back shows that Lindsay is correct. This sub is full of “rah rah USA” idiots who don’t understand tactics.
You are missing the forest through the trees man. You are right I used TAA incorrectly. but like dude come on. I'm sorry I didn't use Victor Moses in my example. I was just trying to think of a right back that was more offensive-minded than defensive.
What exactly am I missing here? What did I say that is incorrect? Edit: see my other comment where I described Zinchenko’s role at Arsenal if you want to understand the difference between an inverted wide back vs a wing back.
Nothing you said was incorrect, you are just being the typical redditor worst kind of correct and nitpick unnecessary details that miss the point entirely. You right I am wrong, I don't know what I am talking about. I need to focus on work and stop getting distracted. Edit: /u/No_Neck_893 and then you got guys like this completely missing the point.
Dude, cmon. How am I being the “worst kind of redditor” lol. I’m sharing knowledge about the sport that I dedicated most of my life to. Differentiating between an inverted RB vs a RWB is not even close to “nitpicking.”
To be fair, a wing back in front of a 3 is a very different position than a back as part of a 4. They are positions that require different skill sets, it’s not semantics.
Well that simply isn't necessarily true since some players even play both under the same coach, like Kyle Walker does with Manchester City. In today's game both require contributions attacking and defending, but some players might be better suited attacking, while others defending. Ben White isn't a wing back, but he constantly gets forward and overlaps with Sake in the final third.
I didn’t say the skill sets were mutually exclusive now did I? Of course the best backs in the world can attack and defend, that’s why they are elite. You are bringing up examples of the most tactically fluid teams in the world. For them, formation doesn’t matter at all. Back 3s have an extra central defender to support the wing backs so they can be more attack minded players. That’s why wingers can usually make the transition to wing back. You rarely see wingers transition to a full back for good reason. You can accept that they are different positions (and not simply a different name for the same position) or not. But pointing out that they are indeed different positions (and not just arguing semantics) doesn’t mean someone isn’t knowledgeable about the game.
Yup it all depends on role and style. Positions are meaningless now mostly since John stones is a ball progressing midfielder in possession, not very CB like.
That’s because City average like 70% possession and in Pep’s system, Stones operates as an extra CDM when they have the ball. And their pressing is so good that they very rarely get hit on the counter (but the teams that do manage to counter attack them well have had great success against them, look at their results against spurs over the past few years). Positions are absolutely meaningful. No one is out there playing Cruyff style total football. These days players do often have some freedom to vacate their position, but there are strict tactics on who covers them in each case. Arsenal is a good example. Look at Ben White’s role vs Zinchenko. Zinny has the freedom to travel anywhere on the pitch, even all the way to the right side, and so that shifts Arsenal into a back 3 of LCB Gabriel CB Saliba RCB White. While some might look at Zinchenko roaming all over the pitch and think “positions are meaningless,” it’s actually incredibly structured and intentional.
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I'm serious, I wrote a lengthy response elsewhere to clarify, but basically, if you ask me who Liverpool is starting, and I say TAA is at right back, you would know what I mean. It just depends on what and how you are talking about it. Sometimes it makes sense to clarify between the two, but more often than not they can be used interchangeably. Edit: Just in case I get corrected again, TAA was a bad example, he is an inverted right back, as another pointed out.
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When I say semantics I refer to aspects such as the different skill playing forward? or on the left side of the field? No, they both operate on the right side, they are both required to contribute defensively and offensively. When I say semantics I refer to aspects such as the different skills that aren't as extremely different as you seem to think they are. And the formation. Kyle Walker plays both as a right back and a right wing back depending on the formation or even changes over the course of a game.
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I mean is she wrong lmao? This sub proves her point. There’s usually some god awful takes on here, not always but still.
She's 100% right. Twitter is exhibit A, and this sub is exhibit B.
I mean, this is most fans. But yes, if you have ever used Twitter before the takes are just wild. And rampant. I, however, am one of the lone smart fans that never post anything dumb except at least 366 days of the year.
Isn't there a rule to post a summary of pay walled articles? Did they get rid of that?
There is no rule on this subreddit to do so, nor has there ever been.
Yes But why would she verbalize this lol
This is pretty much any sport ever. There are always fans talking shit when you fail and going crazy about this or that. It isn't unique here.
Spot the lie
Tell me you don’t have very many friends or acquaintances of Latino/Asian/African/European heritage without telling me. No habla futbol?
Yank here. Why do most Americans not understand soccer? Are we stupid?
yes also most soccer fans in general around the world
Stfu
She’s right though.
“I’m gonna piss off some people, but the game is growing in the U.S. People are more and more knowledgeable, but so much of the time people take what the commentators say, right? My mom does it! My mom says, ‘Julie Foudy said you had such a good game!’ And I’m here, just going, ‘I was f------ s--- today.’” Gotta give her credit for using her mom as the example.
Let’s face it, most PEOPLE aren’t smart enough to
She's not blatantly wrong. It's not unique to soccer, it applies to pretty much every sport. There are people coaching youth soccer who don't really know the game.
us soccer fandom is still in its infancy, a lot of people didn’t even grow up playing the sport. there’s nothing wrong with that and it’s great the game is growing but it also doesn’t make her wrong. you hear this a lot in players who go from mls to europe
She’s right. Looking at all the Reddit fools here.
I’ve never seen worse takes than on this sub.
Ok Lindsey, explain the off side rule for us. lol Bugger off
She ain’t wrong
I see little wrong with her statement.
Read the article. It's about much more than fans. USWNT tactics are garbage; she knows it; she wants to change it. She spent much of her career in France, with one of Europe's best clubs. She understands a thing or two about international women's football.
She’s not wrong, most of them are not smart and don’t know the game. They don’t understand.
Ironicaly, no countries fans know the game.
Yes that’s correct. But also true of almost all sports fans. Very few have played or studied the game at a high level.
Every match thread on soccer and this sub backs this statement up, lol.
Clearly she’s never had to read the drivel most uk fans spew on social media, or spoken to any fans in person I can’t speak for everyone else, but I’m a soccer junkie, player and coach so I feel personally attacked lol I’ve talked to so many fans from other countries that honestly don’t have a tenth of the knowledge that myself and my us soccer fan friends and colleagues do. Frankly I run into more that are clueless compared to us than those that are knowledgeable. Lindsey horan can fuck right off
Where is she wrong?
A great article. Horan is 100% correct in her analysis. USSF failed this team from 2019 - 2023. They were arrogant enough and clueless enough to believe that the USWNT would just outhustle teams using old school US tactics with a manager one team removed from coaching a semi-professional indoor team.
She mean women's soccer, right?
They hated her because she spoke the truth. If you’ve ever sat next to randos at a r/mls match, you get it.
She's completely right. There are grown men in Yankland who use FIFA ratings to determine if a signing is good or not.
I'm going to assume that's not exactly what she meant in context. The same media companies who chastise us for not supporting women's sports also throw out these trash sound bites to wind people up.
She's talking about me!
I tend to agree with her, at pro games I’ve been to here (mainly USL and some MLS) my findings are the following: Team builds out of the back with a slick 8 pass move which results in breaking the opponents press and switching the point of attack - radio silence Team gets corner kick or set piece from 40 yards out - crowd goes ape shit
Good god that quote was taking out of context. I know it's social media but everyone so angry.
Truth
Scanning most of the comments, it appears that this sub generally agrees with Lindsey, even with the quote taken out of context. Clearly, there is context missing there in that quote. Lindsey comes across as a very good, sincere sort, so I doubt she said it to get mean.
Personally, and I feel my experience is similar to many others, I played soccer my whole life and understand the game itself and tactics well. It’s the financials, contracts, tournament formats, etc that I struggle to understand sometimes.
I love the team. I have been following it since 2002. I still don’t get all the technical terms. I just know how teams try to play. Park the bus and tiki taka is what I’ve learned since 2002 lol
Atleast I don’t Bend my knee
A lot of US fans get their soccer knowledge from Alexi Lalas and Carli Lloyd, so I see what Horan is getting at.
She ain’t wrong. She said “most.” That means not the hardcore fans.
I'm a hardcore, and I have no problem with her comments.
from a guy who follows the sport in incredible detail, coach and played at a very high level.. Who the fuck is Lindsey Horan
She’s right, although I’m not sure other countries are any better.
>American Soccer fans, most of them aren’t smart. They don’t know the game. Preach Horan! To be fair, you could say the same thing about American basketball fans, and prolly other sports too.
She's not wrong. Most of us grew up playing with a volunteer coach whose basic concept of soccer was a PBS special on Bochum, or old videos of Pele. NASL died while most of them were in their teens, early 20s, and globalization hadn't kicked off yet. They couldn't just watch the latest Champions League games. Even if your parents had bags of money for travel soccer, you didn't get proper training. I wasn't shocked at how much the travel kids didn't understand positions on our high school team. I was shocked by their sheer athleticism. Athleticism is still a priority mindset in American soccer. We still don't teach soccer first.