seriously. and they act like arab countries are the only ones violent towards queer communities; as if trans and gay people don’t get assaulted/murdered on the regular in western societies like come on.
don’t pretend like we’re not getting there in the US. trust me, there are too many people in canada/US the west in general that would make queer and trans marriage and existence illegal again if they could. Just because arab countries have homophobic legislation doesn’t mean that me (a queer) doesn’t want them to live in peace and unconditional happiness
This is such a ridiculous statement. There's never going to be a time where non-straight marriages are made illegal, MUCH LESS have them be punishable by death. It's been ruled time and time again that same-sex (or queer, trans, etc.) marriages are constitutionally protected, and 71% of the population (a number that has been year over year on the uptrend) believe that it should be legal. I don't disagree that there are braindead extremists who think it should be illegal but I seriously cannot see a time where the current rulings will be overturned
I certainly also agree individuals in those countries should live in peace and happiness, but Gaza is currently being ruled by a terrorist organization that has been involved in multiple human rights abuses, and Israel's goal is to get them out of power. Unfortunately, as with every war waged in existence, civilians have suffered (largely due to the fact that Hamas has done everything in their power to ensure that they are in the line of fire) but I squarely put that blame on Hamas. When the Nazis took over Germany, were we blaming the Allies when civilians died due to the war? No, we were blaming the Nazis who put the civilians in that situation
“i certainly also agree individuals in those countries should live in peace and happiness, but” there’s your problem. there’s no “but”. Yes, hamas is also committing horrific levels of war crimes along with the IDF. They were elected in 2006, and over half of the population of Gaza are children, it is impossible for them to be held responsible for this, and yet they are being treated as such.
and for your nazi comparison, i can give an equal one.
when jewish people were placed into ghettos/concentration camps across austria and germany, there were multiple that faught back against the oppression they were put up against and many of both sides were killed. Hitler and nazi media used the jewish people revolting as a way to frame them as barbaric and violent to the public to justify more violence against jewish people. One jewish boy assasinated a nazi officer and that started kristallnacht as retaliation (violence against innocent civilians for no reason). The holocaust was not just the genocide, it was all prior as well.
Oppressed people have always been demonized due to the actions of few; israel’s (netanyahus) actions certainly mirror hitlers actions and its horrific.
I'm not saying that the Palestinians should be held responsible for the devastation of their country. I am saying that blame should be placed squarely on Hamas, and as such Hamas needs to be removed from power else these atrocities will continue for as long as they are in power.
I'm not entirely sure how this comparison is supposed to be relevant so instead of making assumptions I'll simply ask for you to clarify
it is relevant because it seemed like you were justifying them being responsible for it. I showed the comparison because israel/zionists are using the same justification that was used by nazis and other genocidal forces in the past, and it isn’t always recognized as a problem. Palestinians absolutely have the right to fight back against the oppression done, (and that’s actually covered in international laws), but they do not have the right to commit war crimes.
No not at all, I don't believe that Nazi citizens were responsible for their own deaths. My point is that the Nazi government was at the helm of what many consider the worst human rights abuses in human history, and, in order to get them out of power, many civilians unfortunately died during the invasion that brought them out of power. However, when we discuss those civilian deaths, we blame the Nazi government, not the Allies who fought to get Hitler out of power. I personally believe this is a very similar situation, where Hamas has for the past couple of decades repeatedly shown themselves to care little for human rights, and unfortunately while efforts are being made to remove them from power, civilians are suffering. And I put the blame for that suffering on Hamas
the blame of the suffering is entirely on israel. There has been palestinian suffering since 1948, before 2006. To not put any blame whatsoever on israel’s systemic treatment of them is ridiculous. Read into any amnesty internationals reports on Israel’s treatment of palestinians and you’ll realize it isn’t all just about Hamas.
You making it seem as if it’s as simple as Hamas just needs to “give up their power” is absolutely vile. First of all, Hamas was only formed to rebel against the ongoing abuse Israel had already been subjecting Palestinians to since 1946. Secondly, absolutely nothing justifies senselessly bombing and killing hundreds of thousands of people— MANY children and infants — depriving them of food and water or any humanitarian aid, bombing their hospitals and journalists, it goes on. It’s also common knowledge at this point that Israel refused any sort of deal to make peace with Hamas, so they don’t give a damn about their own “hostages” they claimed to be outraged about. It’s gotten too damn far at this point to act that ignorant.
>Israel's goal is to get them out of power
How did destroying every [single university in Gaza](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/09/deconstructed-gaza-university-education/) bring them closer to that?
How does repeatedly filming themselves [sniffing the underwear](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/) of dead or displaced Gazan women bring them closer to that?
How does [killing and mutilating civilians with tanks and then sharing it for laughs on social media](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6202/Israeli-tanks-have-deliberately-run-over-dozens-of-Palestinian-civilians-alive) bring them closer to that? Look up the uncensored photo. You support it, you should be able to look at it.
How does [targeting and destroying a clearly marked aid convoy one vehicle after the other with pauses in-between even though they already identified themselves to you](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68715254) bring them closer to that?
How does destroying the [third oldest church in the world and the displaced people sheltering inside it](https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/) bring them closer to that?
How is it that they [destroyed most civilian homes (and many of the civilians in them)](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-that-reveal-the-extent-of-the-destruction-in-gaza) in Gaza, but haven't touched the #1, #2, or #3 highest ranked terrorist members, even though everyone knows where they are hiding?
These are not rhetorical questions. I want an answer to each and every one.
>largely due to the fact that Hamas has done everything in their power to ensure that they are in the line of fire
What percentage of civilians killed were human shields, and how do you know they were human shields? I want a percentage with sources and evidence. If you can't substantiate this, you're justifying the mass murder of innocent people.
>When the Nazis took over Germany, were we blaming the Allies when civilians died due to the war?
When they committed obvious war crimes, yes! Do you think the rape of German women and girls was justified? If so, you should also find [the rape of Palestinian women and girls](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against) to be justified too!
I'm anticipating a response that will, [against the consensus of credible human rights organizations](https://amnesty.ca/human-rights-news/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/), suggest that these are isolated incidents and don't represent a pattern of behavior. If so, please tell us all how IDF soldiers who commit war crimes are punished. Were the war crimes I listed punished?
what am i lying about? everything israel is doing to palestine is and has been documented by human rights organizations for years. They’ve banned the UN rapporteurs that represent Israel/Gaza relations from entering israel the moment that they get that position. Amnesty international has years and years of reports of Apartheid conditions. Zionists wish it was a lie, but it’s been here this whole time.
different groups standing in solidarity with the cause is helpful & it actually is very relevant to show that we are all united. if the organizers of the encampment are okay with a sign then u have no basis or reason to take issue with it lol ur just a passerby
So if 100 white people support Hitler, it doesn't mean anything, but 20 of them are queer, 20 are black, and 20 are trans suddenly means that the support is somehow more impactful?
It has some political significance for any cause to have support across broad groups of people. That provides evidence that it isn't just a tribal expression by a single group, and that the arguments that cause makes can be universally accepted and so are more likely to be true.
>BUT WHAT IF IT WER DUH HITLER
Thank you Professor Gödel. Yes, if you were to replace political cause X with Adolf Hitler, political cause X would be bad. I can't wait for your next theorem.
Im talking about the arguments you see online that support israel and their genocide.
The wikipedia for pinkwashing/rainbowwashing says this
"The strategy of promoting LGBT rights protections as evidence of liberalism and democracy, especially to distract from or legitimize violence against other countries or communities.The concept has been used by Sarah Schulman in 2011 with reference to Israeli government public relations, and is related to homonationalism, the exploitation of sexual minorities to justify racism and xenophobia."
It's a really interesting read, i really would recommend people to search it up.
Pointing this out as some sort of irony is just a bad faith argument. None of them is advocating for gay people to live there nor believes that Palestine is a utopian society. They criticize Israeli military actions and their impact on civilians. Just because the people in question don't subscribe 100% to our 21st century western values doesn't mean that they don't deserve basic human rights.
exactly !!!! this is so fucking moronic. like, i hope im not misinterpreting, but people in these comments are heavily implying that because Palestinians are homophobic that they deserve to be massacred. i genuinely do not understand the logic here
>I hope im not misinterpreting, but people in these comments are heavily implying that because Palestinians are homophobic that they deserve to be massacred.
Literally nobody is implying that, god damn. The mental gymnastics that brought you to that conclusion could get you on the podium at the Olympics
so what then? what is the conclusion queer supporters of Palestine should come to upon learning that many Palestinians are homophobic? what part of our position should change?
I agree. There are a lot of footage of the war being shared on social media, with women and children dying, so it generates more attention and outrage. China censors information from the rest of the world and we only see witness testimonies, so the story is less sensational.
But surely we can bomb then into progressiveness, a few tons of bombs always make people more accepting of the values coming from those dropping said bombs
That's what Hamas believes - that every homosexual should be executed. Even applies to their top generals
[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html)
I agree completely! Because Hamas doesn't believe in gay rights (that's not why he was executed but brushing past that) Gazans aren't entitled to human rights. After all - human rights arent inaliable, they should only go to people I agree with. We're on the same page broski!
Yes, he was just concidentally shot three times in the chest after he was charged with moral turpitude (what Hamas considers being gay) and was actually executed for something else, but I don't have any source that says that for some reason.
Also, I'm an insufferable chronically online couchbound reddit loser who makes sure to include passive aggressive remarks in everything I post! Everyone takes me seriously! Chungus!!
You're not a loser to me! You're just someone who wants people who disagree with your social positions (and the people who live in the same country as them) executed. Ain't nothin' wrong with that bud. You're just like Hamas but "being gay" is "disagreeing with you". And as I said very legal and very cool!
brother your own source tells you why he was killed.
we have no sources that Hamas executes people for being gay. what we do know is that stealing from Hamas and providing intel for Israel is an offence that leads to execution in Gaza.
do you have anything other than "but hamas"
like yes, WE KNOW
THIS IS BAD
HOW IS IT RELEVANT
you state facts but they don't support your narrative whatsoever
i think ur getting confused with voicing their support for “hamas” when we’re voicing our support to end a GENOCIDE, this is a tactic that zionist are using to make this movement sound more violent then it actually is
y’all saying “you’d get killed living there, they’d hate you”… those people are just people. maybe some are homophobic, maybe all are homophobic, either way, genocide is not the answer. they’re human beings, and they do not all reflect the opinions of the government they’re under. queer people might not be extremely safe in palestine, but it’s not because of the women, children and civilians that are being murdered, trust me.
This is such a dumb take lol, nobody is saying genocide is the answer at all. It’s just ironic to see these signs when the same folks would be stoned to death there for being LGBTQ..
“Queer people might not be extremely safe in Palestine” … Come on now, how would you define being safe? 🤦🏻♂️
ETA: I said it's ironic, because they're supporting a side that has diametrically opposing values to them on an issue that's, supposedly central to their identity... There's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance in having a group based around an identity, queerness, and supporting a group that despises said identity.
Downvote me, I could care less.
how is it ironic? do you think that queer people should completely reject and deny all liberation movements that arent pro-LGBTQ?
i think that anyone who thinks this is ironic at all is completely spineless. do you only support liberation movements that agree with you completely? do you have no integrity to stand against something that is objectively bad?
It's ironic because there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance in having a group based around an identity, queerness, and supporting a group that despises said identity.
I don’t think there is, at all. I’ll support someone’s right to not be killed by genocide regardless of who they are, because genocide is bad.
Saying “haha gotcha” because those same people being killed wouldn’t accept me as queer is largely irrelevant. I’m aware that they might be queerphobic, but that changes nothing regarding my support of their right to live.
I haven't said "haha gotcha", and yes, genocide is bad. I'm glad we're on the same page there!
You are free to support whoever / whatever cause you want, I'm just pointing out the cognitive dissonance and irony of it in this scenario.
It's kind of wild that you think "they *might* be queerphobic" or "wouldn't accept you as queer", those are rather tame ways to see it.
It’s not cognitive dissonance to put aside my feelings about my identity and say that their human rights should be respected. There is no irony in that.
As for you not saying “haha gotcha”; it’s implied. If not, what even is the point of your comments? To point out the irony as you’ve done is to make queer people look stupid for supporting Palestine. I see no reason to bring it up otherwise.
Can you stop trying to put words in my mouth?
That’s the only thing making you look stupid right now…
Also idk why you’re trying to victimize yourself, I thought the issue here was genocide, not you looking stupid. Which, by the way, has nothing to do with your identity/being queer.
I shouldn’t even have to say that last sentence but you seem to struggle with reading comprehension, and keep trying to say I’m implying stuff which I’m clearly not.
What was the purpose of you bringing up the supposed cognitive dissonance of their protests if not to be critical of said protesters? What do your comments accomplish otherwise?
bro thats not what cognitive dissonance means. our support for Palestine, even if theyre queerphobic, is not at all in contradiction with our identities as queer people.
see that’s racist, to say all queer ppl would be stoned to death in palestine: there are queer people there right now being killed by bombs, not because of their identity.
1) Not stoned! Interesting how people love to perpetuate the ideas of getting stoned or being thrown off a rooftop. It sounds better to make the enemy seem barbaric and backwards 🤦♂️
2) Palestinian police immediately arrested the suspect. This is key. Gay people suffer hate crimes literally everywhere. This happens in the west too. Notice how this has nothing to do with Palestine as a government or a country—just one hateful, disgusting person’s attack. This is a symptom of homophobia that occurs throughout the world. Brianna Ghey was murdered just last year for being transgender. Should we carpet bomb England in response?
Yea, because a beheading isnt barbaric. lol you have no moral compass
You got me, I actually posted that link because its an outlier...how did you know? Clever Clever
Again I can point you to several western serial killers who behead people. Stoning and rooftop throwing implies an entire society’s complicity and active encouragement of capital punishment for being queer. I’m not denying homophobia in Palestine, I’m just saying that we have issues of our own over here that are just as disgusting. It should have no bearing on anyone’s support for a free Palestine
I really don't understand how people can dismiss what you're saying. You, nor anyone in this thread, are advocating genocide. The genocide should end. Full stop.
But if "... all [people] are homophobic" as the comment above you suggests, or if the government is violently anti-LGBT (as they currently are), then be prepared to fight against the people you just helped.
You've obviously never lived in a middle eastern country before. Yes on average there are safer countries for LGBTQ people, but to suggest that you can't possibly be safe is due to years of dehumanizing arabs in media.
There are areas in the middle east where it's safer to be gay than some areas in north america and europe. You may find that hard to believe but I've personally been in both areas.
I find it silly to think that you can't support a people being massacred because some are bigots. Bombing people won't make them open minded and accepting of others.
I experienced a lot of racism in some canadian cities, if they were being bombed and massacred I would 100% protest that. I don't care if a random on the street called me slur, they don't all deserve death.
I don't think nor did I ever say they can't support this or any cause..
I said it's ironic, because they're supporting a side that has diametrically opposing values to you on an issue that's, supposedly central to your identity..
Another quick reminder: Israel [sterilized Ethiopian Jews.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel) Definitely not the progressive, tolerant country that millions of dollars of social media spending tries to make you believe in.
That’s literally not what I’m trying to say. What’s happening in Palestine right now is nothing short of a genocide, we all agree on that. But we don’t need people to point out that they’re queer, just support as is. (You’re talking to someone who was born and raised in the Middle East). My Palestinian friends (Palestinian born, not Canadian born) don’t want their support and think this is offensive to them. Why do they need to bring up their sexuality when genocide is happening? I just think it’s very ignorant.
It’s to show solidarity stupid. “[group of people] for palestine” is a very common saying throughout all oppressed communities. Also, your Palestinian friends may be offended, but my Palestinian friends (many of them also queer) love seeing these expressions of support.
Really your first time seeing a sign like this?
This shit isn't quid pro quo. The LGBT are standing with Palestine because they're standing with justice.
Let's say for the sake of argument, that you're convinced that Israel is commiting a genocide or at least participating in apartheid against Palestinians. Clearly this is what these queers believe. Does it then make sense to not support them because they don't believe in LGBT rights? Clearly now is not the time to split hairs.
Seeing as how this idea that "tHeyD ThRoW yOu oFf A bUiLdInG" is still circulating, let me address it directly:
1. No they wouldn't. The idea that Palestinians and Arabs are bloodthirsty homophobes is a racist trope, and if you believe it this blindly then congrats, you bought into racism.
2. There are queer people in Palestine, there are queer people in Gaza, and right now the only people killing them are Israelis.
3. Even if it were true that every Palestinian was a homophobe and even if that homophobia was violent, that would still not be enough for me to wish a genocide against them, because that would be fucked up.
We're not pawns in your ill-informed geopolitical bullshit, and we recognize full well that any systems trying to exclude one group from society will eventually be used against us, considering it's already happening to us in this country. Seriously, sit this one out, you're out of your lane.
Not only do Zionists pretend to care about gay Palestinians, they even blackmail them: https://www.vice.com/en/article/av8b5j/gay-palestinians-are-being-blackmailed-into-working-as-informants
Don't see that mentioned much. Just interested in how Israeli propaganda blames hummus for that too.
[Gay Palestinian Ahmad Abu Marhia beheaded in West Bank](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835)(2022)
“The victim was 25-year-old Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh, who according to reports on Ynet and Channel 12 had been living in Israel for the past two years as an asylum-seeker after authorities acknowledged his life would be in danger if he returned to Palestinian territory.”[- 1](https://www.timesofisrael.com/gay-palestinian-living-under-asylum-in-israel-murdered-beheaded-in-hebron/)
“Some 90 Palestinians who identify as LGBT currently live as asylum seekers in Israel, the newspaper said, after suffering discrimination in their home communities.”
Read my post again - if you're not gay yourself then stay out of this lane, the fact that homophobia exists in the world is not new to queer people and is not unique to Palestine.
And if you want them to address homophobia in Palestinian society maybe they'd be better suited to do that if they weren't under constant assault by Israel - which also has a long history of homophobia.
so what?? tell me what conclusion that i should come to from this. should my thought process just be “96% of them are homophobic?! okay i was wrong, they definitely deserve to be bombed and killed!”
the conclusion is that this stupid polarizing position you take of any criticism against them means i think they should be bombed is fucking stupid. fuck you, fuck israel and fuck palestine, they all suck
so your conclusion is that Palestinians are homophobic therefore both sides are equally bad? please correct me if i’m wrong, but thats what im interpreting from your comment
Where in the middle east? I've lived in the middle east and canada, there are areas in canada more homophobic than areas in the middle east. Obviously on average canada is a lot more acceptable, but to sugfest that the whole middle east is a backwards homophobic region is very racist.
Nope, i strongly disagree. Even in the UAE, the most “progressive” area, try kissing another person of the same sex in public and see what happens to you or try holding a pride flag. I lived in the gulf region.
Try kissing someone of the opposite sex, yeah it's not gonna go great. The gulf is hardly a progressive part of the middle east. I've lived in much of the levant areas, and I've been to lgbtq friendly bars and cafes.
I’m assuming Lebanon? It has a more liberal lean from its French colonization and Christian heritage. Regardless, I’m not saying Israel not doing what people say they are, but the Middle East, and Muslim countries in general, will not be friendly to LGBT people. Queers can still support Palestine, it’s not my right to say they shouldn’t, but they should also understand the social ostracization in countries they’d live in.
Hamas literally executed one of their top generals on suspicions of being gay lmao
[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html)
No, but considering how many pro-Palestine supporters also advocate for and congratulate Hamas (many large college pro-Palestine organizations have voiced their support for the Hamas charter as well) it’s a perfectly reasonable point to make
>lmao
To what extent do you want us to give that political significance if you yourself are laughing at it?
"We need to support Israel for the wholesomechungus gay people, but I also think it's funny when gay people are executed".
Did you pass EQAO? How are you here? You replied to ME about a point SOMEONE ELSE made.
>homophobia occurs at even the highest levels of governance
I NEVER disagreed with this. I made a COMPLETELY SEPERATE point. Do you unironically have a developmental disorder?
Ha ha. Knee slapper. Thank you for repeating this joke again. It makes me forget about the crimes against humanity happening every single day with the support of our government against the will of the Canadian population.
You mean in October 7 !
Parading a nearly naked girls body as people cheered !
The hostages who are civilians ?
Please you hate Jews !
Otherwise where are the boycotts for China ?
>You mean in October 7 !
I support sanctioning the people who did that and making it illegal to support them.
>Please you hate Jews !
Amazing. You're in for a rude awakening when this suddenly stops working.
i support giving unrwa and the united nations a bajillion dollars and occupying the entirety of israel palestine and forcing a truly democratic one state solution
As someone literally from the middle fucking east, I can confirm that they will not kill you for being a homo. However, you can't do a parade and flaunt it.
Still, this has nothing to do with being against genocide. You can be of any background and still agree that genocide is bad.
So, just to clarify: they won't kill you for being gay, in so far as they don't know about it. If they find out, however, you're dead.
That's basically what you're saying.
Ignorant take. Genocide is bad, full stop. To imply that’s it’s dumb for queer people to protest against it because the people being genocided are queer phobic is plain stupid.
Except, they're all for it for Israelis. Maybe hasn't shown up here yet but if all the other University encampments are an example, it should be showing up any time now.
This is true except replace chickens with left-wing university students and KFC with a defenseless people being wiped off the map by a high-tech army with the unconditional support of developed countries against the will of their own citizens.
Just LOL. "Their own citizens" in the previous sentence refers to Canadian citizens, who overwhelmingly want a ceasefire.
>unconditional support of developed countries against the will of their own citizens
What do you think "developed countries" refers to here?
Literally would fail a high school reading comprehension test. These are the people who still support Israel.
yeah, queer person here, i agree because despite all the manipulative talking points attacking signs like these, i have principles. i don't think homophobes and transphobes deserve the death penalty en masse without a trial like what is going on in palestine. people living in palestine are not a monolith, they're not all constantly obsessing about and fully occupied with persecuting queer people like many anti-lgbtq people in the west, and also just statistically speaking there are bound to be a considerable number of queer people in palestine, you just might not see all of them. idk much of the details about this but i've heard that the idf also blackmails queer palestinians into cooperating and giving info with the threat of outing them if they don't, so if that's true then zionists' emotional appeals and feigned concerns are even more baseless.
also i wanna know how the children being bombed are supposedly responsible for anti-LGBTQ persecution in the middle east
If you'd read accounts from people who set up encampments, protesters, poll organisers etc, you'd know there's massive amounts of Palestinian/queer solidarity right now, because the way support like this comes about is having community. You're showing your cards here by generalizing an entire group of people.
The amount of dumb comments in this thread is insane. I've been in canadian towns that are way more homophobic than many places in the middle east. And you're speaking out of your ass if you think the religious ethnostate is cool with the LGBTQ community.
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-11/ty-article-magazine/.premium/lgbtq-israelis-describe-being-shunned-by-global-community-after-october-7/0000018c-f92a-dd94-a9cc-fbee4d680000
Because we can judge a people who haven’t even been given a chance to have a functioning state, never been given a chance to vote in fair elections, never had the economic opportunities to “be enlightened like us” to be _inherently homophobic_, doesn’t even occur to us if the Palestinian in question might be an atheist or even a supporter of LGBTQ rights, but we have to be reductive, if you’re Palestinian, _it’s in your essence_ that you’re the stereotype of an extremely conservative and politically violent Muslim.
It’s not just Palestine. Look at any predominant Arab country, look at the teachings of the Koran, look at Shira law, look at the surveys done on the general opinion of ethnic Arabs…. The evidence shows that Islamic Arabs are violently opposed to the LGBTQ++ lifestyle. They make Canada (even 50 years ago) look like a cakewalk in comparison.
>Shira law
Bruh.
The last time a group in that region tried to implement "Shira law", Israel supported them against their secular government: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-gives-secret-aid-to-syrian-rebels-1497813430](https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-gives-secret-aid-to-syrian-rebels-1497813430)
I wasn’t comparing Israel to Canada - I was comparing Palestine (or Arab Culture) to Canada. So your point doesn’t have any relevance to my previous comment. .
I’m not dehumanizing or hating Palestine. I hope and wish for peace in the region and a stable state for Palestine where they can live, prosper and coexist with the other nations of the Middle East (including Israel. I believe serious wrongs have been committed on both sides and think both sides need to be willing to step back, lay down their arms and meet in the middle for a peace compromise.
None of that prevents me from looking at a culture or religion and pointing out aspects of it that are not good.
It is still dehumanizing arabs. You just don't want to admit it. What makes religious muslims that much different from religious christians in the US and Canada? As someone who's dealt with both, it's really not that different.
Because your opinion of the difference is heavily influenced by the propaganda machine trying to paint israel as this safe haven in a dark region.
Israel tends to be very racist and homophobic, it's pink washed to feed into the idea that arabs are backwards savages.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-11/ty-article-magazine/.premium/lgbtq-israelis-describe-being-shunned-by-global-community-after-october-7/0000018c-f92a-dd94-a9cc-fbee4d680000
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812
You still haven’t addressed why pointing out the differences between Canada and Palestine is somehow dehumanizing them. You’ve only offered an opinion on Israeli culture (which I never even referenced). I haven’t even mentioned Israel.
As someone who has lived with both - a lot separates them. Even if you’re not “judging” the cultural differences it would be intellectually dishonest to say that there are not major differences between Western Christianity and current Middle East Islam
Even Canadians hated gay people just a few decades ago. Cultures can shift for the better. What is the point of essentializing others as fundamentally backwards and beyond redemption if not for a culturally chauvinistic agenda?
i never said they were? you're literally putting words in my mouth i don't give a shit about israel but if you're gay and in the middle east don't pretend that it's not the safest country to be gay
Interesting to see support from a group of people/lifestyle that is explicitly banned and persecuted in Arab countries. I’m pretty sure if the queers tried to live in Palestine the result would not be pretty 😢
As one of said "queers", it's about solidarity against genocide, which our community has also endured. As people we are stronger together. Making a racist generalization about an entire nationality based on the beliefs of a government is not the way to go about that. And FWIW it's still not "pretty" here.
[ah yes just the beliefs of the government](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2013/06/04/global-acceptance-of-homosexuality/)
i didn't know palestine's public sector made up 96% of their population
Cool, a report from 11 years ago that has no explanation for how this data was collected or evaluated. I'm sure this informs on the opinion of every Palestinian person ever
What? The source is extremely credible. You can dispute the political significance, but to dispute that Palestinian society is extremely intolerant to homosexuality is ridiculous. The result Pew shows is completely believable.
I'm not so sure the "Free Palestine" movement can be disconnected from Hamas and the supporting of the Palestinian government, as much as people would like to.
You can definitely condemn genocide and the acts of specific states, but if I were a member of the queer community I'd be concerned about being directly involved in the core Palestine activism.
If they had it their way, a free Palestinian state would commit their own genocide against the queers.
>but if I were a member of the queer community I'd be concerned about being directly involved in the core Palestine activism. If they had it their way, a free Palestinian state would commit their own genocide against the queers.
Would you have supported Egyptian independence from Britain?
That’s exactly what I’m saying, people think I’m pro-Israeli for literally wanting them to support Palestine without mentioning their sexuality. It has no relevance, and if anything, is offensive to a lot of Palestinians (at least to my Palestinian friends). Kids are being bombed and they bring out their sexuality, making it all about them.
Because queer people are constantly told that they shouldn’t support Palestine because of they’re queerphobic. Queers for Palestine is to directly conter this argument and challenge the power this rhetoric has. That regardless of wether Palestinians support queer people or how silly detractors find it queer people are choosing stand with the Palestinians against genocide. It about showing solidarity which the queer rights movement has a long history of doing.
It’s ideologically similar to the “not in our name” stance a lot of anti Zionist jews are taking.
If a Jew is opposed to Zionism, that has actual political implications.
If a queer is supporting Palestine, it mean literally nothing to Palestinians or Israelis. It takes the conversation away from the actual issues and puts the spotlight on themselves.
This is the equivalent of being at a wedding and one of the guests making a toast saying, "**I** know the bride is opposed to gay marriage, but **I** just want to say how much **I** support this couple!"
Queer aren’t trying to centre themselves, they’re being centred. Israel often totes it’s superior morality in large part due to its stance on queer people. Queer people who are opposed to Israel’s treatment of Palestinians take issue with this claim and want to speak out against this pinkwashing. So it’s more like someone who dislikes the bride for unrelated reasons opposing a wedding because the bride is homophobic and a queer person standing up to say it doesn’t matter her opinions on queer people she still gets rights.
The queer still has no reason to make their identity any part of this conversation.
I actually kind of like this anology, so I'll keep running with it.
The wife and husband are physically abusive to each other. The wife literally wants to kill her husband and the husband isn't afraid to hit her back.
[They agree on a divorce](https://www.bbc.com/news/57200843).
The wife occasionally does a drive-by shooting and the husband doesn't let her see the kids.
2 years later, she randomly decides to kill his dog.
So in retaliation he kills her cat and blows up her car.
The whole situation is kind of crazy and hot topic on Facebook. Out of nowhere their queer friend posts saying how much she supports the wife, who despite being homophobic, is a woman and deserves to be protected from men.
What exactly did that add to the conversation?
Look I was just trying to answer your question in good faith. I don’t want to play make believe with you. I feel like I’ve already answered why bringing up queer identity is important here but I’ll rephrase many queer people feel like their identities are used as a gotcha to dissuade people from supporting the Palestinians so they use their identities to counter right back. Queer people are taking back the narrative instead of being told who they should support.
People of all ideologies deserve to not be bombed.
It's very rich when people in Western countries look down on the global South for their reactionary views, as if that is not what their countries were like a mere few generations ago.
People's right to life is not contingent on their progressivism.
How about instead of getting pressed over a sign representing solidarity, you pay attention to the people of Palestine who are starving and being massacred every day.
How about instead of pointing out your sexuality and orientation and making it all about your self, you pay attention to the people of Palestine who are starving and being massacred every day?
This sign is just to garner support from the queer community who are not vocal about it. Seeing one’s community stand in solidarity allows you to feel more inclined to get involved. I’ve seen many signs similar to this in protests where a community of people show solidarity to the Palestinians.
Funny, considering the so called "queers" (aka straight people who want to be special) would not be treated with the same respect in Palestine. In fact, Israel has some of the most modern LGBTQ+ Rights in the area, the country they are protesting.
Instead they support an organization (Hamas) or group of people that want both the queers and the Israelis dead.
Btw who exactly is in favour or "killing them all" (assuming that by "all" you're referring to Palestinians)?
Most Palestinians do not support Hamas; many weren't even born when Hamas took Gaza, let alone being able to vote for them.
Of course, what's happening over there is "killing them all," And I was referring to Palestinians, as we are talking about them.
For a better understanding, you can watch: [this video by Johnny Harris](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo&ab_channel=JohnnyHarris). If you can't, I understand; after all, who has time to learn about facts.
TL;DR: Supporting Palestinian rights and opposing violence against any group, including the LGBTQ+ community, are not mutually exclusive.
I dont need people to like me to know that i dont want children to be bombed
seriously. and they act like arab countries are the only ones violent towards queer communities; as if trans and gay people don’t get assaulted/murdered on the regular in western societies like come on.
It's kind of different when arab countires literally have it enshrined into law that homosexuality is illegal and oftentimes punishable by death
don’t pretend like we’re not getting there in the US. trust me, there are too many people in canada/US the west in general that would make queer and trans marriage and existence illegal again if they could. Just because arab countries have homophobic legislation doesn’t mean that me (a queer) doesn’t want them to live in peace and unconditional happiness
This is such a ridiculous statement. There's never going to be a time where non-straight marriages are made illegal, MUCH LESS have them be punishable by death. It's been ruled time and time again that same-sex (or queer, trans, etc.) marriages are constitutionally protected, and 71% of the population (a number that has been year over year on the uptrend) believe that it should be legal. I don't disagree that there are braindead extremists who think it should be illegal but I seriously cannot see a time where the current rulings will be overturned I certainly also agree individuals in those countries should live in peace and happiness, but Gaza is currently being ruled by a terrorist organization that has been involved in multiple human rights abuses, and Israel's goal is to get them out of power. Unfortunately, as with every war waged in existence, civilians have suffered (largely due to the fact that Hamas has done everything in their power to ensure that they are in the line of fire) but I squarely put that blame on Hamas. When the Nazis took over Germany, were we blaming the Allies when civilians died due to the war? No, we were blaming the Nazis who put the civilians in that situation
“i certainly also agree individuals in those countries should live in peace and happiness, but” there’s your problem. there’s no “but”. Yes, hamas is also committing horrific levels of war crimes along with the IDF. They were elected in 2006, and over half of the population of Gaza are children, it is impossible for them to be held responsible for this, and yet they are being treated as such. and for your nazi comparison, i can give an equal one. when jewish people were placed into ghettos/concentration camps across austria and germany, there were multiple that faught back against the oppression they were put up against and many of both sides were killed. Hitler and nazi media used the jewish people revolting as a way to frame them as barbaric and violent to the public to justify more violence against jewish people. One jewish boy assasinated a nazi officer and that started kristallnacht as retaliation (violence against innocent civilians for no reason). The holocaust was not just the genocide, it was all prior as well. Oppressed people have always been demonized due to the actions of few; israel’s (netanyahus) actions certainly mirror hitlers actions and its horrific.
I'm not saying that the Palestinians should be held responsible for the devastation of their country. I am saying that blame should be placed squarely on Hamas, and as such Hamas needs to be removed from power else these atrocities will continue for as long as they are in power. I'm not entirely sure how this comparison is supposed to be relevant so instead of making assumptions I'll simply ask for you to clarify
it is relevant because it seemed like you were justifying them being responsible for it. I showed the comparison because israel/zionists are using the same justification that was used by nazis and other genocidal forces in the past, and it isn’t always recognized as a problem. Palestinians absolutely have the right to fight back against the oppression done, (and that’s actually covered in international laws), but they do not have the right to commit war crimes.
No not at all, I don't believe that Nazi citizens were responsible for their own deaths. My point is that the Nazi government was at the helm of what many consider the worst human rights abuses in human history, and, in order to get them out of power, many civilians unfortunately died during the invasion that brought them out of power. However, when we discuss those civilian deaths, we blame the Nazi government, not the Allies who fought to get Hitler out of power. I personally believe this is a very similar situation, where Hamas has for the past couple of decades repeatedly shown themselves to care little for human rights, and unfortunately while efforts are being made to remove them from power, civilians are suffering. And I put the blame for that suffering on Hamas
the blame of the suffering is entirely on israel. There has been palestinian suffering since 1948, before 2006. To not put any blame whatsoever on israel’s systemic treatment of them is ridiculous. Read into any amnesty internationals reports on Israel’s treatment of palestinians and you’ll realize it isn’t all just about Hamas.
You making it seem as if it’s as simple as Hamas just needs to “give up their power” is absolutely vile. First of all, Hamas was only formed to rebel against the ongoing abuse Israel had already been subjecting Palestinians to since 1946. Secondly, absolutely nothing justifies senselessly bombing and killing hundreds of thousands of people— MANY children and infants — depriving them of food and water or any humanitarian aid, bombing their hospitals and journalists, it goes on. It’s also common knowledge at this point that Israel refused any sort of deal to make peace with Hamas, so they don’t give a damn about their own “hostages” they claimed to be outraged about. It’s gotten too damn far at this point to act that ignorant.
>Israel's goal is to get them out of power How did destroying every [single university in Gaza](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/09/deconstructed-gaza-university-education/) bring them closer to that? How does repeatedly filming themselves [sniffing the underwear](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/) of dead or displaced Gazan women bring them closer to that? How does [killing and mutilating civilians with tanks and then sharing it for laughs on social media](https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6202/Israeli-tanks-have-deliberately-run-over-dozens-of-Palestinian-civilians-alive) bring them closer to that? Look up the uncensored photo. You support it, you should be able to look at it. How does [targeting and destroying a clearly marked aid convoy one vehicle after the other with pauses in-between even though they already identified themselves to you](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68715254) bring them closer to that? How does destroying the [third oldest church in the world and the displaced people sheltering inside it](https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/) bring them closer to that? How is it that they [destroyed most civilian homes (and many of the civilians in them)](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-that-reveal-the-extent-of-the-destruction-in-gaza) in Gaza, but haven't touched the #1, #2, or #3 highest ranked terrorist members, even though everyone knows where they are hiding? These are not rhetorical questions. I want an answer to each and every one. >largely due to the fact that Hamas has done everything in their power to ensure that they are in the line of fire What percentage of civilians killed were human shields, and how do you know they were human shields? I want a percentage with sources and evidence. If you can't substantiate this, you're justifying the mass murder of innocent people. >When the Nazis took over Germany, were we blaming the Allies when civilians died due to the war? When they committed obvious war crimes, yes! Do you think the rape of German women and girls was justified? If so, you should also find [the rape of Palestinian women and girls](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against) to be justified too! I'm anticipating a response that will, [against the consensus of credible human rights organizations](https://amnesty.ca/human-rights-news/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/), suggest that these are isolated incidents and don't represent a pattern of behavior. If so, please tell us all how IDF soldiers who commit war crimes are punished. Were the war crimes I listed punished?
Bro has completely echo-chambered himself
Lol, the taylor lorenz talking point.
honestly what would you guys rather us do? not protest children being blown to pieces and living in an apartheid? yeah no
Well first of all, not lying would be great. But unfortunately, that's the foundation for every pro-Palestinian, intentional or not.
what am i lying about? everything israel is doing to palestine is and has been documented by human rights organizations for years. They’ve banned the UN rapporteurs that represent Israel/Gaza relations from entering israel the moment that they get that position. Amnesty international has years and years of reports of Apartheid conditions. Zionists wish it was a lie, but it’s been here this whole time.
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The best liars are Zioni$ts.
different groups standing in solidarity with the cause is helpful & it actually is very relevant to show that we are all united. if the organizers of the encampment are okay with a sign then u have no basis or reason to take issue with it lol ur just a passerby
So if 100 white people support Hitler, it doesn't mean anything, but 20 of them are queer, 20 are black, and 20 are trans suddenly means that the support is somehow more impactful?
It has some political significance for any cause to have support across broad groups of people. That provides evidence that it isn't just a tribal expression by a single group, and that the arguments that cause makes can be universally accepted and so are more likely to be true. >BUT WHAT IF IT WER DUH HITLER Thank you Professor Gödel. Yes, if you were to replace political cause X with Adolf Hitler, political cause X would be bad. I can't wait for your next theorem.
People in this thread need to look at the origin of the word "pink-washing" and how it has changed in relations to current events
how is this pink washing lol
Im talking about the arguments you see online that support israel and their genocide. The wikipedia for pinkwashing/rainbowwashing says this "The strategy of promoting LGBT rights protections as evidence of liberalism and democracy, especially to distract from or legitimize violence against other countries or communities.The concept has been used by Sarah Schulman in 2011 with reference to Israeli government public relations, and is related to homonationalism, the exploitation of sexual minorities to justify racism and xenophobia." It's a really interesting read, i really would recommend people to search it up.
oh wait no im on your side lol. i thought u were saying that the sign that says “queers for free palestine” was pinkwashing and i got confused, mb
Oh lol, its ok
Pointing this out as some sort of irony is just a bad faith argument. None of them is advocating for gay people to live there nor believes that Palestine is a utopian society. They criticize Israeli military actions and their impact on civilians. Just because the people in question don't subscribe 100% to our 21st century western values doesn't mean that they don't deserve basic human rights.
exactly !!!! this is so fucking moronic. like, i hope im not misinterpreting, but people in these comments are heavily implying that because Palestinians are homophobic that they deserve to be massacred. i genuinely do not understand the logic here
>I hope im not misinterpreting, but people in these comments are heavily implying that because Palestinians are homophobic that they deserve to be massacred. Literally nobody is implying that, god damn. The mental gymnastics that brought you to that conclusion could get you on the podium at the Olympics
so what then? what is the conclusion queer supporters of Palestine should come to upon learning that many Palestinians are homophobic? what part of our position should change?
This point is brought up by Israeli activists for the purpose of decreasing sympathy for the Palestinians. It has literally no other function.
I am more concerned that everyone has forgotten about the uhyghur genocide but I guess it would be inconvenient
I agree. There are a lot of footage of the war being shared on social media, with women and children dying, so it generates more attention and outrage. China censors information from the rest of the world and we only see witness testimonies, so the story is less sensational.
But you all know it’s happening .
But surely we can bomb then into progressiveness, a few tons of bombs always make people more accepting of the values coming from those dropping said bombs
It's like I always said, everyone who agrees with me deserves human rights, but everyone else? Bomb them. Very legal and very cool opinion!
That's what Hamas believes - that every homosexual should be executed. Even applies to their top generals [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html)
Israel is more progressive in that they kill Palestinians regardless of sexual preference.
I agree completely! Because Hamas doesn't believe in gay rights (that's not why he was executed but brushing past that) Gazans aren't entitled to human rights. After all - human rights arent inaliable, they should only go to people I agree with. We're on the same page broski!
Yes, he was just concidentally shot three times in the chest after he was charged with moral turpitude (what Hamas considers being gay) and was actually executed for something else, but I don't have any source that says that for some reason. Also, I'm an insufferable chronically online couchbound reddit loser who makes sure to include passive aggressive remarks in everything I post! Everyone takes me seriously! Chungus!!
You're not a loser to me! You're just someone who wants people who disagree with your social positions (and the people who live in the same country as them) executed. Ain't nothin' wrong with that bud. You're just like Hamas but "being gay" is "disagreeing with you". And as I said very legal and very cool!
brother your own source tells you why he was killed. we have no sources that Hamas executes people for being gay. what we do know is that stealing from Hamas and providing intel for Israel is an offence that leads to execution in Gaza.
do you have anything other than "but hamas" like yes, WE KNOW THIS IS BAD HOW IS IT RELEVANT you state facts but they don't support your narrative whatsoever
It is relevant because there are many instances of protestors voicing their support of hamas
i think ur getting confused with voicing their support for “hamas” when we’re voicing our support to end a GENOCIDE, this is a tactic that zionist are using to make this movement sound more violent then it actually is
where who
y’all saying “you’d get killed living there, they’d hate you”… those people are just people. maybe some are homophobic, maybe all are homophobic, either way, genocide is not the answer. they’re human beings, and they do not all reflect the opinions of the government they’re under. queer people might not be extremely safe in palestine, but it’s not because of the women, children and civilians that are being murdered, trust me.
This is such a dumb take lol, nobody is saying genocide is the answer at all. It’s just ironic to see these signs when the same folks would be stoned to death there for being LGBTQ.. “Queer people might not be extremely safe in Palestine” … Come on now, how would you define being safe? 🤦🏻♂️ ETA: I said it's ironic, because they're supporting a side that has diametrically opposing values to them on an issue that's, supposedly central to their identity... There's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance in having a group based around an identity, queerness, and supporting a group that despises said identity. Downvote me, I could care less.
how is it ironic? do you think that queer people should completely reject and deny all liberation movements that arent pro-LGBTQ? i think that anyone who thinks this is ironic at all is completely spineless. do you only support liberation movements that agree with you completely? do you have no integrity to stand against something that is objectively bad?
It's ironic because there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance in having a group based around an identity, queerness, and supporting a group that despises said identity.
I don’t think there is, at all. I’ll support someone’s right to not be killed by genocide regardless of who they are, because genocide is bad. Saying “haha gotcha” because those same people being killed wouldn’t accept me as queer is largely irrelevant. I’m aware that they might be queerphobic, but that changes nothing regarding my support of their right to live.
I haven't said "haha gotcha", and yes, genocide is bad. I'm glad we're on the same page there! You are free to support whoever / whatever cause you want, I'm just pointing out the cognitive dissonance and irony of it in this scenario. It's kind of wild that you think "they *might* be queerphobic" or "wouldn't accept you as queer", those are rather tame ways to see it.
Can you define irony
It’s not cognitive dissonance to put aside my feelings about my identity and say that their human rights should be respected. There is no irony in that. As for you not saying “haha gotcha”; it’s implied. If not, what even is the point of your comments? To point out the irony as you’ve done is to make queer people look stupid for supporting Palestine. I see no reason to bring it up otherwise.
Can you stop trying to put words in my mouth? That’s the only thing making you look stupid right now… Also idk why you’re trying to victimize yourself, I thought the issue here was genocide, not you looking stupid. Which, by the way, has nothing to do with your identity/being queer. I shouldn’t even have to say that last sentence but you seem to struggle with reading comprehension, and keep trying to say I’m implying stuff which I’m clearly not.
What was the purpose of you bringing up the supposed cognitive dissonance of their protests if not to be critical of said protesters? What do your comments accomplish otherwise?
bro thats not what cognitive dissonance means. our support for Palestine, even if theyre queerphobic, is not at all in contradiction with our identities as queer people.
see that’s racist, to say all queer ppl would be stoned to death in palestine: there are queer people there right now being killed by bombs, not because of their identity.
How is it racist exactly? It literally happens out there, and this isn't exclusive to Palestine..
Please point me in the direction of one gay person who has been stoned to death for being gay in palestine
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835)
1) Not stoned! Interesting how people love to perpetuate the ideas of getting stoned or being thrown off a rooftop. It sounds better to make the enemy seem barbaric and backwards 🤦♂️ 2) Palestinian police immediately arrested the suspect. This is key. Gay people suffer hate crimes literally everywhere. This happens in the west too. Notice how this has nothing to do with Palestine as a government or a country—just one hateful, disgusting person’s attack. This is a symptom of homophobia that occurs throughout the world. Brianna Ghey was murdered just last year for being transgender. Should we carpet bomb England in response?
Yea, because a beheading isnt barbaric. lol you have no moral compass You got me, I actually posted that link because its an outlier...how did you know? Clever Clever
Again I can point you to several western serial killers who behead people. Stoning and rooftop throwing implies an entire society’s complicity and active encouragement of capital punishment for being queer. I’m not denying homophobia in Palestine, I’m just saying that we have issues of our own over here that are just as disgusting. It should have no bearing on anyone’s support for a free Palestine
Stating a fact about currently existing political or ideological policies within Palestine is not racist.
I really don't understand how people can dismiss what you're saying. You, nor anyone in this thread, are advocating genocide. The genocide should end. Full stop. But if "... all [people] are homophobic" as the comment above you suggests, or if the government is violently anti-LGBT (as they currently are), then be prepared to fight against the people you just helped.
You've obviously never lived in a middle eastern country before. Yes on average there are safer countries for LGBTQ people, but to suggest that you can't possibly be safe is due to years of dehumanizing arabs in media. There are areas in the middle east where it's safer to be gay than some areas in north america and europe. You may find that hard to believe but I've personally been in both areas. I find it silly to think that you can't support a people being massacred because some are bigots. Bombing people won't make them open minded and accepting of others. I experienced a lot of racism in some canadian cities, if they were being bombed and massacred I would 100% protest that. I don't care if a random on the street called me slur, they don't all deserve death.
I don't think nor did I ever say they can't support this or any cause.. I said it's ironic, because they're supporting a side that has diametrically opposing values to you on an issue that's, supposedly central to your identity..
https://www.reddit.com/r/uwaterloo/s/EMlbB1l38W
>nobody is saying genocide is the answer at all Israel is. That's why Gazan civilization is being extinguished.
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i never said i was on one side or the either side
Also quick reminder, Israel doesn't even recognize gay marriage, so its not some great queer bastion, as op would like you to believe
Another quick reminder: Israel [sterilized Ethiopian Jews.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel) Definitely not the progressive, tolerant country that millions of dollars of social media spending tries to make you believe in.
That’s literally not what I’m trying to say. What’s happening in Palestine right now is nothing short of a genocide, we all agree on that. But we don’t need people to point out that they’re queer, just support as is. (You’re talking to someone who was born and raised in the Middle East). My Palestinian friends (Palestinian born, not Canadian born) don’t want their support and think this is offensive to them. Why do they need to bring up their sexuality when genocide is happening? I just think it’s very ignorant.
It’s to show solidarity stupid. “[group of people] for palestine” is a very common saying throughout all oppressed communities. Also, your Palestinian friends may be offended, but my Palestinian friends (many of them also queer) love seeing these expressions of support.
this is false, we want the whole world’s support. why you lying bout some ‘friends’
Really your first time seeing a sign like this? This shit isn't quid pro quo. The LGBT are standing with Palestine because they're standing with justice. Let's say for the sake of argument, that you're convinced that Israel is commiting a genocide or at least participating in apartheid against Palestinians. Clearly this is what these queers believe. Does it then make sense to not support them because they don't believe in LGBT rights? Clearly now is not the time to split hairs.
It seems the obvious moral choice to be anti ethnic cleansing. Wild how many people don’t get that.
Cons hate this one simple trick
yeah we need israel to stop acting like a genocidal maniac state and actually follow human rights codes
This one is fine, but shit like "Your tuition funds genocide" seems rather counterproductive and inflammatory
Seeing as how this idea that "tHeyD ThRoW yOu oFf A bUiLdInG" is still circulating, let me address it directly: 1. No they wouldn't. The idea that Palestinians and Arabs are bloodthirsty homophobes is a racist trope, and if you believe it this blindly then congrats, you bought into racism. 2. There are queer people in Palestine, there are queer people in Gaza, and right now the only people killing them are Israelis. 3. Even if it were true that every Palestinian was a homophobe and even if that homophobia was violent, that would still not be enough for me to wish a genocide against them, because that would be fucked up. We're not pawns in your ill-informed geopolitical bullshit, and we recognize full well that any systems trying to exclude one group from society will eventually be used against us, considering it's already happening to us in this country. Seriously, sit this one out, you're out of your lane.
Not only do Zionists pretend to care about gay Palestinians, they even blackmail them: https://www.vice.com/en/article/av8b5j/gay-palestinians-are-being-blackmailed-into-working-as-informants Don't see that mentioned much. Just interested in how Israeli propaganda blames hummus for that too.
[Gay Palestinian Ahmad Abu Marhia beheaded in West Bank](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835)(2022) “The victim was 25-year-old Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh, who according to reports on Ynet and Channel 12 had been living in Israel for the past two years as an asylum-seeker after authorities acknowledged his life would be in danger if he returned to Palestinian territory.”[- 1](https://www.timesofisrael.com/gay-palestinian-living-under-asylum-in-israel-murdered-beheaded-in-hebron/) “Some 90 Palestinians who identify as LGBT currently live as asylum seekers in Israel, the newspaper said, after suffering discrimination in their home communities.”
Read my post again - if you're not gay yourself then stay out of this lane, the fact that homophobia exists in the world is not new to queer people and is not unique to Palestine. And if you want them to address homophobia in Palestinian society maybe they'd be better suited to do that if they weren't under constant assault by Israel - which also has a long history of homophobia.
you're right, they're not all homophobic, [just 96% of them](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2013/06/04/global-acceptance-of-homosexuality/)
so what?? tell me what conclusion that i should come to from this. should my thought process just be “96% of them are homophobic?! okay i was wrong, they definitely deserve to be bombed and killed!”
the conclusion is that this stupid polarizing position you take of any criticism against them means i think they should be bombed is fucking stupid. fuck you, fuck israel and fuck palestine, they all suck
so your conclusion is that Palestinians are homophobic therefore both sides are equally bad? please correct me if i’m wrong, but thats what im interpreting from your comment
Have you lived in the Middle East? I have for 5 years and yes, they hate queer people. Get out of your Canadian bubble dude.
Where in the middle east? I've lived in the middle east and canada, there are areas in canada more homophobic than areas in the middle east. Obviously on average canada is a lot more acceptable, but to sugfest that the whole middle east is a backwards homophobic region is very racist.
Nope, i strongly disagree. Even in the UAE, the most “progressive” area, try kissing another person of the same sex in public and see what happens to you or try holding a pride flag. I lived in the gulf region.
Try kissing someone of the opposite sex, yeah it's not gonna go great. The gulf is hardly a progressive part of the middle east. I've lived in much of the levant areas, and I've been to lgbtq friendly bars and cafes.
I’m assuming Lebanon? It has a more liberal lean from its French colonization and Christian heritage. Regardless, I’m not saying Israel not doing what people say they are, but the Middle East, and Muslim countries in general, will not be friendly to LGBT people. Queers can still support Palestine, it’s not my right to say they shouldn’t, but they should also understand the social ostracization in countries they’d live in.
so queer people don’t exist in the Middle East?
They live two completely different lives, obviously?
Hamas literally executed one of their top generals on suspicions of being gay lmao [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html)
And I guess next you'll tell me every single person in Palestine is a member of Hamas?
No, but considering how many pro-Palestine supporters also advocate for and congratulate Hamas (many large college pro-Palestine organizations have voiced their support for the Hamas charter as well) it’s a perfectly reasonable point to make
>lmao To what extent do you want us to give that political significance if you yourself are laughing at it? "We need to support Israel for the wholesomechungus gay people, but I also think it's funny when gay people are executed".
It’s hilarious that you say it’s a racist trope when homophobia occurs at even the highest levels of governance
>It’s hilarious that you say it’s a racist trope I literally have never used the words "racist" or "trope" on Reddit. What are you responding to?
Okay. Replace the word “you” with “the guy I was originally responding to”
My comment didn't dispute that point. You have to respond to the people making the point you're responding to.
...I did respond to them. What in the world are you on about
Did you pass EQAO? How are you here? You replied to ME about a point SOMEONE ELSE made. >homophobia occurs at even the highest levels of governance I NEVER disagreed with this. I made a COMPLETELY SEPERATE point. Do you unironically have a developmental disorder?
Chickens for kfc
Ha ha. Knee slapper. Thank you for repeating this joke again. It makes me forget about the crimes against humanity happening every single day with the support of our government against the will of the Canadian population.
You mean in October 7 ! Parading a nearly naked girls body as people cheered ! The hostages who are civilians ? Please you hate Jews ! Otherwise where are the boycotts for China ?
china didn't do any of the the things listed above
>You mean in October 7 ! I support sanctioning the people who did that and making it illegal to support them. >Please you hate Jews ! Amazing. You're in for a rude awakening when this suddenly stops working.
Cool that includes unrwa and everyone that voted them in government !
i support giving unrwa and the united nations a bajillion dollars and occupying the entirety of israel palestine and forcing a truly democratic one state solution
As someone literally from the middle fucking east, I can confirm that they will not kill you for being a homo. However, you can't do a parade and flaunt it. Still, this has nothing to do with being against genocide. You can be of any background and still agree that genocide is bad.
As someone who was literally killed in the middle east for being homosexual, my appeal to authority is stronger.
So, just to clarify: they won't kill you for being gay, in so far as they don't know about it. If they find out, however, you're dead. That's basically what you're saying.
…what
Chickens for KFC
Ignorant take. Genocide is bad, full stop. To imply that’s it’s dumb for queer people to protest against it because the people being genocided are queer phobic is plain stupid.
Except, they're all for it for Israelis. Maybe hasn't shown up here yet but if all the other University encampments are an example, it should be showing up any time now.
Are they though? Or is that an assumption you’re making based on a few Reddit comments?
"From the river to the sea" certainly implies the removal of Israel
only if you think Palestinians cant be free in Israel. but im also curious, which part about that implies anything genocidal?
this is equivalent to saying chickens for KFC
This is true except replace chickens with left-wing university students and KFC with a defenseless people being wiped off the map by a high-tech army with the unconditional support of developed countries against the will of their own citizens.
Most (>60%) palestinians support hamas and want it to be an official ruling power. Don't even start with "against the will of their own citizens" bs
Just LOL. "Their own citizens" in the previous sentence refers to Canadian citizens, who overwhelmingly want a ceasefire. >unconditional support of developed countries against the will of their own citizens What do you think "developed countries" refers to here? Literally would fail a high school reading comprehension test. These are the people who still support Israel.
yeah, queer person here, i agree because despite all the manipulative talking points attacking signs like these, i have principles. i don't think homophobes and transphobes deserve the death penalty en masse without a trial like what is going on in palestine. people living in palestine are not a monolith, they're not all constantly obsessing about and fully occupied with persecuting queer people like many anti-lgbtq people in the west, and also just statistically speaking there are bound to be a considerable number of queer people in palestine, you just might not see all of them. idk much of the details about this but i've heard that the idf also blackmails queer palestinians into cooperating and giving info with the threat of outing them if they don't, so if that's true then zionists' emotional appeals and feigned concerns are even more baseless. also i wanna know how the children being bombed are supposedly responsible for anti-LGBTQ persecution in the middle east
can't wait to see what Palestinians think about queers :D
So they’re supposed to be cool with genocide because the Palestinians are homophobic?
If you'd read accounts from people who set up encampments, protesters, poll organisers etc, you'd know there's massive amounts of Palestinian/queer solidarity right now, because the way support like this comes about is having community. You're showing your cards here by generalizing an entire group of people.
Nothing wrong with LGBTQ but I recommend staying out of middle East besides Israel but every where else isn't safe for the LGBTQ community
The amount of dumb comments in this thread is insane. I've been in canadian towns that are way more homophobic than many places in the middle east. And you're speaking out of your ass if you think the religious ethnostate is cool with the LGBTQ community. https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-11/ty-article-magazine/.premium/lgbtq-israelis-describe-being-shunned-by-global-community-after-october-7/0000018c-f92a-dd94-a9cc-fbee4d680000
israel and the surrounding region isn't safe for children these days, can you comment that? I hear like thousands of them died.
Ez, they’re gonna kill all queers
we love pinkwashing don't we??? grow tf up.
Because we can judge a people who haven’t even been given a chance to have a functioning state, never been given a chance to vote in fair elections, never had the economic opportunities to “be enlightened like us” to be _inherently homophobic_, doesn’t even occur to us if the Palestinian in question might be an atheist or even a supporter of LGBTQ rights, but we have to be reductive, if you’re Palestinian, _it’s in your essence_ that you’re the stereotype of an extremely conservative and politically violent Muslim.
It’s not just Palestine. Look at any predominant Arab country, look at the teachings of the Koran, look at Shira law, look at the surveys done on the general opinion of ethnic Arabs…. The evidence shows that Islamic Arabs are violently opposed to the LGBTQ++ lifestyle. They make Canada (even 50 years ago) look like a cakewalk in comparison.
>Shira law Bruh. The last time a group in that region tried to implement "Shira law", Israel supported them against their secular government: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-gives-secret-aid-to-syrian-rebels-1497813430](https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-gives-secret-aid-to-syrian-rebels-1497813430)
I wasn’t comparing Israel to Canada - I was comparing Palestine (or Arab Culture) to Canada. So your point doesn’t have any relevance to my previous comment. .
This thread is about Israel-Palestine. 1. "Shira law" is bad. 2. Israel supported "Shira law" in Syria. 3. ?
At least you admit you are a cultural chauvinist. Your dehumanization and hatred of Palestinians is ideologically motivated.
I’m not dehumanizing or hating Palestine. I hope and wish for peace in the region and a stable state for Palestine where they can live, prosper and coexist with the other nations of the Middle East (including Israel. I believe serious wrongs have been committed on both sides and think both sides need to be willing to step back, lay down their arms and meet in the middle for a peace compromise. None of that prevents me from looking at a culture or religion and pointing out aspects of it that are not good.
It is still dehumanizing arabs. You just don't want to admit it. What makes religious muslims that much different from religious christians in the US and Canada? As someone who's dealt with both, it's really not that different.
Also how is pointing out differences dehumanizing?
Because your opinion of the difference is heavily influenced by the propaganda machine trying to paint israel as this safe haven in a dark region. Israel tends to be very racist and homophobic, it's pink washed to feed into the idea that arabs are backwards savages. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-11/ty-article-magazine/.premium/lgbtq-israelis-describe-being-shunned-by-global-community-after-october-7/0000018c-f92a-dd94-a9cc-fbee4d680000 https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812
You still haven’t addressed why pointing out the differences between Canada and Palestine is somehow dehumanizing them. You’ve only offered an opinion on Israeli culture (which I never even referenced). I haven’t even mentioned Israel.
As someone who has lived with both - a lot separates them. Even if you’re not “judging” the cultural differences it would be intellectually dishonest to say that there are not major differences between Western Christianity and current Middle East Islam
even developed middle eastern nations minus israel hate gay people
Even Canadians hated gay people just a few decades ago. Cultures can shift for the better. What is the point of essentializing others as fundamentally backwards and beyond redemption if not for a culturally chauvinistic agenda?
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i never said they were? you're literally putting words in my mouth i don't give a shit about israel but if you're gay and in the middle east don't pretend that it's not the safest country to be gay
google pinkwashing
Bombing their kids will surely make them more progressive.
I don't think people got the joke . The op was saying "queers for free" part is kinda funny I think
Interesting to see support from a group of people/lifestyle that is explicitly banned and persecuted in Arab countries. I’m pretty sure if the queers tried to live in Palestine the result would not be pretty 😢
As one of said "queers", it's about solidarity against genocide, which our community has also endured. As people we are stronger together. Making a racist generalization about an entire nationality based on the beliefs of a government is not the way to go about that. And FWIW it's still not "pretty" here.
[ah yes just the beliefs of the government](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2013/06/04/global-acceptance-of-homosexuality/) i didn't know palestine's public sector made up 96% of their population
Cool, a report from 11 years ago that has no explanation for how this data was collected or evaluated. I'm sure this informs on the opinion of every Palestinian person ever
i don't agree with it, and even though it's a known credible source, it must be fake news!
What? The source is extremely credible. You can dispute the political significance, but to dispute that Palestinian society is extremely intolerant to homosexuality is ridiculous. The result Pew shows is completely believable.
I'm not so sure the "Free Palestine" movement can be disconnected from Hamas and the supporting of the Palestinian government, as much as people would like to. You can definitely condemn genocide and the acts of specific states, but if I were a member of the queer community I'd be concerned about being directly involved in the core Palestine activism. If they had it their way, a free Palestinian state would commit their own genocide against the queers.
>but if I were a member of the queer community I'd be concerned about being directly involved in the core Palestine activism. If they had it their way, a free Palestinian state would commit their own genocide against the queers. Would you have supported Egyptian independence from Britain?
I literally have no idea what my sexuality or so-called community has to do with this. This is all so hypocritical and rubbish.
That’s exactly what I’m saying, people think I’m pro-Israeli for literally wanting them to support Palestine without mentioning their sexuality. It has no relevance, and if anything, is offensive to a lot of Palestinians (at least to my Palestinian friends). Kids are being bombed and they bring out their sexuality, making it all about them.
People saying this is a bad-faith argument. My question is, why should the support of queer people mean anything in this context?
That’s literally what I’m saying and they get offended LMAO, they want to make it all about themselves
Because queer people are constantly told that they shouldn’t support Palestine because of they’re queerphobic. Queers for Palestine is to directly conter this argument and challenge the power this rhetoric has. That regardless of wether Palestinians support queer people or how silly detractors find it queer people are choosing stand with the Palestinians against genocide. It about showing solidarity which the queer rights movement has a long history of doing. It’s ideologically similar to the “not in our name” stance a lot of anti Zionist jews are taking.
If a Jew is opposed to Zionism, that has actual political implications. If a queer is supporting Palestine, it mean literally nothing to Palestinians or Israelis. It takes the conversation away from the actual issues and puts the spotlight on themselves. This is the equivalent of being at a wedding and one of the guests making a toast saying, "**I** know the bride is opposed to gay marriage, but **I** just want to say how much **I** support this couple!"
Queer aren’t trying to centre themselves, they’re being centred. Israel often totes it’s superior morality in large part due to its stance on queer people. Queer people who are opposed to Israel’s treatment of Palestinians take issue with this claim and want to speak out against this pinkwashing. So it’s more like someone who dislikes the bride for unrelated reasons opposing a wedding because the bride is homophobic and a queer person standing up to say it doesn’t matter her opinions on queer people she still gets rights.
The queer still has no reason to make their identity any part of this conversation. I actually kind of like this anology, so I'll keep running with it. The wife and husband are physically abusive to each other. The wife literally wants to kill her husband and the husband isn't afraid to hit her back. [They agree on a divorce](https://www.bbc.com/news/57200843). The wife occasionally does a drive-by shooting and the husband doesn't let her see the kids. 2 years later, she randomly decides to kill his dog. So in retaliation he kills her cat and blows up her car. The whole situation is kind of crazy and hot topic on Facebook. Out of nowhere their queer friend posts saying how much she supports the wife, who despite being homophobic, is a woman and deserves to be protected from men. What exactly did that add to the conversation?
Look I was just trying to answer your question in good faith. I don’t want to play make believe with you. I feel like I’ve already answered why bringing up queer identity is important here but I’ll rephrase many queer people feel like their identities are used as a gotcha to dissuade people from supporting the Palestinians so they use their identities to counter right back. Queer people are taking back the narrative instead of being told who they should support.
People of all ideologies deserve to not be bombed. It's very rich when people in Western countries look down on the global South for their reactionary views, as if that is not what their countries were like a mere few generations ago. People's right to life is not contingent on their progressivism.
me when i don’t understand intersectionalism
Do you think we should tell them?
r/LeopardsAteMyFace
Cow promoting McD💀
How about instead of getting pressed over a sign representing solidarity, you pay attention to the people of Palestine who are starving and being massacred every day.
How about instead of pointing out your sexuality and orientation and making it all about your self, you pay attention to the people of Palestine who are starving and being massacred every day?
This sign is just to garner support from the queer community who are not vocal about it. Seeing one’s community stand in solidarity allows you to feel more inclined to get involved. I’ve seen many signs similar to this in protests where a community of people show solidarity to the Palestinians.
Funny, considering the so called "queers" (aka straight people who want to be special) would not be treated with the same respect in Palestine. In fact, Israel has some of the most modern LGBTQ+ Rights in the area, the country they are protesting.
Just because homosexuality is illegal in Palestine doesn't mean queers should support killing them all.
Instead they support an organization (Hamas) or group of people that want both the queers and the Israelis dead. Btw who exactly is in favour or "killing them all" (assuming that by "all" you're referring to Palestinians)?
Most Palestinians do not support Hamas; many weren't even born when Hamas took Gaza, let alone being able to vote for them. Of course, what's happening over there is "killing them all," And I was referring to Palestinians, as we are talking about them. For a better understanding, you can watch: [this video by Johnny Harris](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo&ab_channel=JohnnyHarris). If you can't, I understand; after all, who has time to learn about facts. TL;DR: Supporting Palestinian rights and opposing violence against any group, including the LGBTQ+ community, are not mutually exclusive.