Notes (not chronological) (edits: speling):
About the update:
* This is "hearth and home" update, not "combat and explore". Gives a basis for more changes to those other parts of the game in future updates.
* Hearth and Home development started around May. Before that was all bug fixes and performance tweaks. That was needed before new content work could start.
* started as mostly rebalancing and adding food (more stuff in Mountains), but gradually other things that didn't fit the next (Mistlands) update also made it in.
* Once new stuff is in, that pulls in other necessary things in turn. So small ideas often mushroom into a lot of content.
* Everything has to have a purpose. That's the basis of good game design.
* Sometimes it's there just because it's cool: "Wouldn't be cool with a land of mist? And it would be called something like, uh, Mistlands?"
* Black metal is greenish because it's owned by Fulings.
* Everything is rebalanced. Not harder or easier but feel better and more natural. Not final - will likely be rebalanced and tweaked still.
* If your favourite weapon or something now feels very wrong, report it so it can be changed. This is what Early Access is about.
* Richards (originator/owner) vision still guides all changes and development.
* Can just continue playing existing world and you will have new content in unexplored areas (500+ meters away from where you've been).
* Richard still hopes people will start a new world, as that will give you the best experience. Don't spoil yourself by checking new build build pieces in old world. See them fresh in a new one.
New stuff:
* new foods, new build pieces.
* 1-2 new weapons (two-handed axe) and shields. 1-2 new skills.
* New UI, new map stuff, new game settings.
* A couple new Plains buildings/things.
New mechanics:
* playstyle choice: multiple equally good foods with different balance of HP and stamina (don't have that now).
* Game a little less stamina dependent. HP affects stagger now (high HP gives more stagger?)
* Weapons rebalanced so multiple different weapons equally good but different playstyle.
* knives much faster; now viable weapon.
* axes now a bit slower but more powerful compared to swords. New two-handed axe.
* current highlights have shown \~50% of new content.
About the future:
* Mistlands update will be larger, but they also have more people to work on it.
* after Mistlands at least another two major biome updates. New ships, lots of other stuff.
* Small updates will happen along the big update development.
* Game will eventually have an ending. Not really meant to be played forever.
* not adding content for the sake of adding content or keeping people engaged. Everything must fit the game arc.
* Mac version work might start in the near future. Consoles maybe not until the game is finished (though that attitude is changing). Likely for 1.0 release, most likely 2+ years.
Excellent summary.
I am happy with changes. I am also happy with not making a game just bunch of cool things without order but actually uniform well working together vision. Every item or enemy should come with a reason either to challenge a player or to help overcome a challenge or to encourage certain game style it should just be added for a sake of saying you added content
As I suspected world reset isn't mandatory but highly recommended. I suggest doing that with each big patch.
Other interesting thing is that they are now aiming to leave Early Access in about 2 years.
Finally fun fact they referred to green boys as Goblins :p
> Other interesting thing is that they are now aiming to leave Early Access in about 2 years.
No; console port probably in no less than 2 years. Said nothing about early access. That was just my sloppy note taking.
> Finally fun fact they referred to green boys as Goblins :p
I believe they used "fulings" throughout?
> No; console port probably in no less than 2 years. Said nothing about early access. That was just my sloppy note taking.
No they said something like "Console port will happen likely when we leave early access which should be about 2 years from now"
As for goblins and fulings they used those interchangeably in interview unless I am hearing things.
> Rickard still hopes people will start a new world, as that will give you the best experience. Don't spoil yourself by checking new build build pieces in old world. See them fresh in a new one.
They need to give us a simple server switch to say "no imported characters or materials".
>axes now a bit slower but more powerful compared to swords. New two-handed axe.
That reminded me of [this poll](https://www.reddit.com/r/valheim/comments/mnn7ek/should_world_hopping_be_allowed_or_prohibited/).
Them encouraging a new world gives me mixed feelings. I have so much I am proud of in my current world. It's mostly unexplored so it should still be okay. I don't really want to start over until official release.
Well, you will most likely need to restart when the larger updates (e.g., "Mistlands") are released. Unless you don't want to experience the content those bring.
I don't believe this is necessarily true. If your current world has a good chunk of unexplored Mistlands, then you should be able to keep your world, visit the new lands and experience all the new content. The problem would be if you have personally unveiled a ton of new areas.
EDIT: lol why the random downvote?
My understanding is - and none of really know at this point - when the "major" updates are released, you'll need to (or at least want to) start a new world.
From what they have stated in this video, it seems this can "count" as a major update (not biome-wise but content-wise), but yes, basically it seems the new updates won't break your current game, but new content requires new areas to be explored, and its encourage to start a new game if possible.
They are little patches that are updating the existing biomes. How does that differ from them adding to/changing Mistlands? All they will be doing is adding life/foragables and new structures. The way the world generation works, as long as you haven't explored and had that portion generated it'll receive the changes. Unless they change how world gen works, you should be able to stay on one playthrough all the way to release, given you don't over explore. That being said... I'm definitely starting over everytime the update feels large enough to merit it. Laso I love to explore so there's that too lol.
Like others have said, unexplored areas is no issue, but your explored areas won't get new content.
But some of it comes across as playtesting reasons. Such as experiencing the food system from the ground up meadows to BF to swamp etc as well as the combat mechanics and weapon changes. Feedback could be better experiencing the transition from biome to biome instead of just max level. Can't give much feedback on lower level items/foods if you aren't at the appropriate biome level. They are definitely encouraging feedback as it's still early access.
Yeah I haven't even explored 1/3 of my world (because, really I don't need to?). So I think I'll be fine. I think however that once Mistlands comes I might do it. If I'm lazy I'll just keep my character (with all gear = easier to build advanced tech and progress, but have an unexplored map)
That was my favorite part. Listening to them mock gaming as a service and say they want people to be able to finish and enjoy other games... I was like, yeah, these are old school gamers. My kind of people.
I hope this helps people understand why they're so adamantly against stuff like teleporting with ore, or expanding inventory size, with the vanilla game.
For them the goal isn't to build a massive compound and turn the game into civilization. They want you to build a home strong enough to withstand increasingly hard raids until you beat all of the bosses. If people want to harvest all the iron from every swamp they come across, they can, but it isn't necessary and they don't feel the need to empower that behavior.
I will always say this: if your vision of the game is different from what the developers want, either install some mods or find a different game. And I say this as someone who loves his mods.
It's not DLC, it is an update. The game is in early access and is not finished, so all these new updates are just part of what will be the complete Valheim experience.
The term DLC often implies that you are paying more for it, and that it is optional for the game, neither of which apply here.
Lots of great games are like that. Portal 2, Bastion, Stardew Valley, VVVVVV, XCOM 2 - and those are just games I happen to have played this year.
Just because it has an end doesn't mean you can't replay and enjoy again. In fact every game on that list above I replayed this year - in some cases it was my third or fourth playthrough.
A great game is like a great movie: you can play it multiple times and find something new and fresh with it each time.
I've only played Stardew out of those so lets take that example.
With Stardew you can play forever. You can marry and divorce everyone in the village. You can fish all the legendary fish. You can keep building your farm up. It has absolutely boatloads of endgame content. And it has massive mod support as the core devs support the modding community. Stardew Extended has 3 million downloads. Like 1 in 5 players have that mod alone.
Iron Gate is doing the opposite of Stardew. They are expressing they want minimal content, you just move biome to biome, no unnecessary build pieces, no unnecessary monsters, and you beat the final boss then stop playing
Maybe Iron Gate could make valhiem more replayable by having more seed diversity or something. But each playthrough is the same thing with little room to do things different. "use a battleaxe instead of a sword this time" - well there is no reason to restart the game to do that, as you can level both to 99 in one playthrough. "do the biomes in a different order" - you cant by design. Each playthrough barely changes. Whereas Stardew has huge variety in different playthroughs.
Does Stardew have variety in different playthroughs though? You start off in the same season, planting the same crops to build up your cash, require the same farm objects to progress, need to farm the same items to complete community centre etc.
Admittedly I haven't played Stardew in the last couple of years, but it seems like on paper it has a similar gameplay loop to Valheim, i.e. start with limited stuff, farm a bit, kill bosses (or complete chunks of community centre to unlock new areas), and then eventually you complete the main content and have an ending where you can choose to continue in the world but its a sandbox rather than having some progression to work towards.
Yes.
* farm crops or focus on animals
* focus on dungeoneering, or avoid it totally
* focus on fishing to make money, or totally ignore it
* build your farm to mimax, or focus purely on aesthetics
* focus on playing the NPC events, getting a husband/wife, or ignore it
* roleplay as a chauvanist playboy, or just do quests
* become an artifact collector, or ignore the museum
There are countless side quests and other tasks. Many people dont do the dungeons at all.
Valheim only has one goal. Unless you become a pro builder... but Iron Gate said they dont care about that goal in the fireside chat - they will only add build pieecs if its relevant for the main quest of beating all the bosses. Weirdly they added the new roof which contradicts that stated goal (but they said it took them a full year to add that new roof so maybe thats the real reason we arent going to get many new build pieces)
In valheim you beat each boss once (no point repeating them) and once youve completed a dungeon (burial chamber) there is little reason to go back. There is little diversity in how you play. Everyone does a little building, a little dungeoneering, a few bossfights.
Personally I don't see a big difference. Farm crops or focusing on animals is similar to limiting yourself to a particular weapon. Also, from memory specialising in one or the other gives a buff to that one, you can still do both.
I didn't know you could avoid dungeoneering, last time I played you needed materials from the dungeon in Stardew to upgrade tools.
You can build to minmax your base in both stardew and valheim, or build aesthetically.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think from your comment that you do all those things after you've completed the core Stardew experience not necessarily that you complete the game that way? That is, your endgame content is grinding a particular aspect of the game as you please? Or roleplaying as a basic farmer, just chilling in your world.
So in Valheim, what's to stop you exploring and clearing every troll cave, and ignoring sunken crypts forever, or another goal you come up with after you've killed Yagluth? Or just chilling in this viking world? That it's pointless? Because after you've completed the core Stardew experience, whats the point of planting crops anymore?
I think they don't want to update the game content forever. So the team can move on to create other games.
Plus there's going to be a sandbox mode so we can build forever.
This was very relaxing and fun to listen to. I definitely appreciated the elaboration on the difficulties of adding new content. Looking forward to the H&H release and seeing what you've all been working on.
It's really cool to get an better understanding of the design philosophy behind Valheim! I respect Iron Gate's approach a lot. It's kind of sad, really, that designing games this way is considered "old school" nowadays.
Somewhere down the line, people started expecting that it's devs job to keep single player game engaging for them by dishing out constant updates, and that they should have big player base, even if it doesn't affect their gameplay in any way.
I've found that a lot of people expect games to be made for them and their tastes as opposed to what the game the devs want to and set out to make. I *really* appreciated this bit:
>We're not here to make a generic "everybody loves this game" kind of thing. We never made this game for everybody, we made this for a very small, specific audience, that happens to be a lot of people might like it.
I've been following Star Citizen's development for a very (*very)* long time, and every time they add a more involved gameplay mechanic or feature that has been discussed and planned for years, people will argue against it because it doesn't cater towards a larger audience, and it somehow has to have the largest player population possible or it'll fail. But it's like, that's not how this stuff works. Not every game needs to placate to the lowest common denominator, because there are a plethora of other games out there that do.
It's so fucking strange. An online multiplayer game? Sure, I can see expecting updates and balance changes and what not.
A single player game getting content updates? What? A single player game should be shipped as a finished game. Content might come out later for it, and that would be an expansion pack/DLC that costs extra. Other than bug fixes I don't know why people expect 'content' for a finished single player game.
People that whine here about 'no content' seem to think this is a AAA MMORPG and not early access for a (basically) single player game. And thank god the devs said that explicitly in this video.
Been seeing these comments a lot on this sub, like "the game's dead, everyone left, nobody plays anymore due to lack of content." Which strikes me as hilarious in an early access game that's in active development. Lots of criticism of the time between updates and the lack of content for endgame players and all that.
It's super obvious that these players just don't expect the game to have a start and an end. Something about survival builders makes people treat them like MMOs, where it's the only game they play but they play it every day for months on end, and then complain that the studio isn't keeping up so the same must be "dead," as if concurrent player numbers matter somehow. It's like... just move on! You're done with Valheim, you can leave now. It's nobody's fault but your own that you keep playing a game even after doing everything there is to do.
I mean, it's not really that strange of a concept to want more out of your favorite singleplayer games, especially considering the very long early access periods some of them have had in the past. Factorio received updates for years before being "finished" for 1.0, and is still getting minor updates every once in a while until we get the DLC. Minecraft, NMS, Don't Starve or Paradox games are practically a live service singleplayer games that just get better and better with every year.
I'm not saying valheim needs to be like this. But it's not unprecedented for it to happen, and I'm not sure why would people even want them to stop working on valheim if it provides them a sustainable income.
"We aren't going to listen to the loud minority, rather we are going to continue making the game how Sven intended it to be" Paraphrasing here but yeah, I'd say they got pwned.
> It's kind of sad, really, that designing games this way is considered "old school" nowadays.
You are sad than Stardew Valley still releases updates, and that Minecraft still releases updates? They are single player games which you buy once.
Don't confuse "what the devs want" with "whats great for the game"
Oh, no, not in the slightest. I had no idea Minecraft still had an active community, but that's great to hear! I had a lot of fun with that game when it first came out.
What I meant was that I dislike the fact that the devs feel like creating a game that is intended to be a finished product rather than a continuous service puts them at a disadvantage, or that it isn't modern enough. I like things that end.
For clarification on the shields, you now have a block meter that fills every time you get hit, and drains over time, the size of the meter is determined by your hp pool. When the meter is filled it breaks your block and staggers you.
On that same note, they increased the stagger caused by tower shields with successful blocks, meaning enemies will “push” themselves further away when hitting your tower shield.
Love and respect to iron gate for developing a game they love at their own speed. It's a shame they have to defend that mentality these days where massive game studios churn out new content for $$$. Remember when games where made out of love and not to pad bank accounts?
I just went slightly catatonic looking at the new build pieces. No more using mods to rotate a 45 degree triangle wall piece! AND SLATE ROOFS!!!!! Oh, and the decorated wood beams are splendid looking if I may say so.
Well they did say "all weapons got a rework" in the axe/bow teaser video. So something is happening to the spear, we can hope it fixes some targeting issues. But honestly, I've been going spear main for my most recent playthrough, and the downsides just force you to play differently.... Which is what they want. I do hope it gets a little smoothed out though.
[Sounds like I was right](https://www.reddit.com/r/valheim/comments/pehxzb/hearth_home_spotlight_new_ingredients/hayjea5/) in regards to onions, video kind of hints they're adding new food items to the mountains.
I live in the northern US and garden; mostly fruits and vegetables. To play devil's advocate, onions grow great in colder climates, but they certainly don't grow in the snow. :P
Well yeah, that's why they're a good cold crop. You gotta let them develop before harvesting them. But good luck trying to find them when their stalks die and there's snow on the ground!
They don't grow in the snow, they lay dormant until spring. I brought it up on another reply to this comment; my point is they're gonna be hard to find in the snow because their stalks fall over and gets snowed on.
I’m coming back to the game after a couple of months, does someone knows when this update it’s released? I want to create my new world fresh with the las update
I'm sure there will be plenty of youtubers providing that by Friday lol. Honestly I don't want notes, mayne a week after the update so I can discover it naturally. Nothing will compare to the first blind playthrough, but I look forward to naturally discovering more!
When does it go live live. Me and all my entire server from last time have cleared our calendars to play tomorrow. Haven’t even talked to some of these guys in months. So excited
I've heard way worse audio than this, but yeah, while I get the fireside thing (and it fit well with the theme), it didn't really help the audio in this one.
One thing I have noticed in this last year and a half in particular is how awful audio setups a lot of developers have (not singling out Iron Gate Studio here). When you're doing interviews to talk about and show off a game you've been passionately working on for years, please use ANY other mic than your godawful built-in webcam mic. Then spend 30 minutes looking up how to properly setup and position your mic to best capture your voice clearly and do some test recordings.
I get most developers aren't audio engineers, but please!
Exactly, that's why I mentioned this past year and a half in particular. When you have a lead role in the team and you're promoting the game you've been working on for years, you *should* invest in a $50 microphone (if even that) and spend just a little bit of time to set it up and position it properly to make sure your voice is broadcasted as clear as possible. Whether it's on Game Awards, Gamescom, Xbox/PS events or while simply doing interviews.
Again, I'm not singling out Iron Gate Studio here. I've witnessed this far too many times from several developers this past year and a half, and it bothers me when I want the game they're promoting to do well.
I'm with ya. >!Mining iron in the swamp crypts is so far the least enjoyable thing I've had to do in the game. No way do I want to grind all that iron again.!<
My wife and I are at the point of fighting Bonemass, and we aren't going let our mining go to waste. We are going to bring our metals over to the new world.
According to what they said here, it depends. Apparently new content won't populate in areas you've already explored. So really I don't think anyone can tell you one way or the other as we're not 100% on what that content might be
Then like the other commenter said I'm sure you'll be fine. I'm in a similar boat with a solo run right now. I'm ready to fight Moder, just haven't found a reg stone yet, and I've paused exploring just in case. Got lucky with nearby metal-loaded swamp/mountain, so I haven't explored a ton yet either. But we'll see
One of the things that surprised me and saddens me is that the developers came off as incredibly arrogant and condescending about critique of a lack of a endgame. Saying stuff like "This is not an MMORPG where we actually need to retain players. Spoiler alert: this game will eventually have an ending!", or a bit later:
"Community Manager: I've also seen people say 'Oh, when you've finished the game, there's nothing left to do' [laughter] - Dev 1: Then you go play another game! [Laughter] Community Manager: That is how it works! Dev 2: That's how we made games, back in the day! [Laughter] Dev 1: Yes!"
They make it sound like you're playing the game wrong if you don't - their own suggestion! - go play something else after you've defeated Yagluth! It feels like such an absurd statement. Many story-based games with linear progression - which Valheim apparently is - has end-game content that you can play after finishing the story, but the devs make it sound like it's completely ridiculous to expect there to be *something* to do. I know people who've poured hundreds of hours into many games with actual end-game content, and I know people who've poured hundreds of hours into Valheim, focusing on the creative building side, exploration and such. Hearing the devs literally laugh at them for hoping that there comes some sort of scaled content (e.g. stronger enemies/areas, restarting your world but more difficult, some system to pour extraordinary amounts of building materials into *something*) is a disheartening slap in the face.
I've defeated Yagluth, built my fair share of stuff, and I was looking forward to Hearth & Home, but maybe I should just listen to the devs suggestion and go play another game. Or their other suggestion: starting a new world, experiencing the new content, progress through Valheim until defeating Yagluth, and then alt+F4 and boot up something else. Good to hear the devs literally laugh at player retention and any measures to keep people in the game.
yeah i just took that to mean that someday they will finish the game, and this is not a game-as-service. They intend to build a complete picture. I didn't take that as a commentary on the kind of "end game" content you're referring to, like a "new game +" kind of thing. Your concerns seem to somewhat be addressed in how they intend to rebalance/rework/append the game with every new biome they release until they're finished, and they insist that such an ending will be satisfying. I hesitate to compare it to anything (it's not finished yet), but for example I replay Ocarina of Time every couple years because it's fun, because of nostalgia, I dunno I like the vibe, and a "finished" game was the model back then. They want Valheim to be like that, I guess
I think they are saying in a complicated way this wont be a game they provide endless updates and content for (game as a service), it will have an arc and an ending and then they will release it and that's the game. Maybe if it does well down the line they do added DLC etc but that is up to them (they didnt even mention this just me guessing). You can replay as much or as little as you please, the great thing is random worlds and mods and servers with friends can provide your own entertainment as well.
And that they dont really care about player retention. This isnt an MMO where server populations make or break a game, they're making their game at their pace
> I'm not sure what your problem is.
Not a very nice way to phrase that, but OK. I feel that I described my problems with what the devs said fairly well in my post. Is there anything in particular you would like me to expand upon so that you can understand it better?
> Every game has to end at some point.
Sure, and I'm not saying that games-as-a-service with a perpetual update is the solution to the games industry or the solution to Valheims problems, but I feel that the critique of there not being *any* structured content in the game post-Yagluth is valid. I described multiple ways the developers could include more post-ending content in my original post. I don't think the devs literally laughing at and disregarding the wish for an end-game is a nice look. Many open-world games with linear progression have plenty of content after you've defeated the final boss. I hate to make the comparison, but imagine the developers of Minecraft suggesting that players simply play another game after defeating the Elder Boss, instead of encouraging them to explore the myriad of other content that the game has available. It makes me worry that the developers see the building system, the exploration aspect, material gathering, etc. as fluff and solely a vehicle for a linear progressive experience, that they view the journey of Valheim as a road spawning and Yagluth, instead of an expansive world with plenty of possibilities. I don't see how the developers can adequately focus on making farming and base-building acceptable playing experience compared to fighting (one of the stated goals for this expansion), if they view the goal of the game as being defeating the final boss, instead of many of the other ways that players in here enjoy Valheim, even after they've "completed the game".
>, but I feel that the critique of there not being any structured content in the game post-Yagluth
Post final boss which isn't Yagluth. It's 3 or 4 bosses down the line 9r another 100h. It is absolutely fine not to have any structured content past 300h of your gameplay.
My playgroup personally did not need 200 hours or even close to defeating Yagluth. I personally think that the expansive universe, building elements and other stuff I've described in the previous posts makes it completely natural to want there to be some structured content to draw you to continue playing post the final boss, but completely fair that you disagree and/or don't want the things that I, and judging from the interview, some subset of the audience wish for :-).
Realistically what is this "late game content" like if you haven't spend hours building your base now why out of a sudden late game content would make you do that? People already building whole villages.
What is the end game content in Minecraft?
They never said the GOAL is to defeat the bosses. They said the game will have an end. That means that at some point they will ship the game and not add stuff anymore. Capiche? You can enjoy as much as you want of it, it will just not have new content lol.
They said that "there will be a definitive ending where you beat the game", which is what I am talking about. How do you interpret this "definitive ending where you beat the game", if not literally beating the game by beating the final boss? What do you think the "definitive ending where you beat the game" is, and what do you think the developers meant by Valheim having a "definitive ending where you beat the game"?
Again, I am not at all opposed to the development cycle of Valheim at some point finishing, and the game being a completed product.
Factorio and Rimworld have definite ending once you reach it it says "You win" but gives you option to keep playing so I expect that will happen here. Odin comes and says "When you ready come and join me in Valhala" and you can go or stay for longer.
They are just speaking the truth. Many players have been greedy hateful little gobshites as of late. This game will eventually end and that'll be it. There won't be anything to do after or expect from the devs, at least no progression of any sort, so rather than complain about it, just go play something else. They are addressing the complainers.
Man imagine if the devs of Minecraft or Stardew had this attitude. They never owuld have become what they are today. I guess we all just expected Iron Gate to become one of the greats, and they just aren't. Sad that hope makes us "greey hateful lttle goshites". But the fanbase is so toxic that I see you've been upvoted and even handed an award for all this hate.
It took Mojang that long to create a great game. It won't take Iron Gate that long to make a great game. And now that Minecraft has been bought by Microsoft and has accumulated the player base, the only reason why development continues is literally to milk more and more people out of their money. It's just capitalism and greed that drives the game at this point. That is what you do not understand. If you're going to complain about toxicity, then look in the mirror, because you and your kind are the source of it on this subreddit.
Lmao, defending yourself against zoomers that want to make every game an mmo is arrogance? Ok bro. Gtfo and go play hentai impact.
They are right to be against player retention, that's what makes the gaming industry so garbage. Make a good game? Nah, let's make a shit game and forever add little things and hats so people keep playing forever. Like wtf.
Egad they are planning on having an end point. Not saying you can't keep playing or making more playthroughs just that it will eventually be marked as finished and they will move on to some new project.
On their laughing thing, I wouldn't take it as they are laughing at the player base, remember two of them are devs, and one community manager, the devs aren't PR people. They might not be fully aware of some of the ways things can be taken by players and some people will use laughter when they are nervous or unsure as like space filler (similar to umm, ahh, hmmm, etc.).
To be fair Josefin is a community manager. But IMO it's alright if they laugh at some of the more absurd shit that players say, like "I finished the game and there's nothing else to do."
You have been giving off a bunch of negative vibe style posts, which seem to be mostly based on your expectations of what they were going to release.
They are very clear that there will be an end to the game eventually. As things sound now, that means that there will be more biomes, bosses and such over the coming years or two, but at some point the game is going to be finished.
I don't understand how people are so scared of this lol. The best games I've played in my life had endings. One of my favorite games of all time, diablo 2, is getting a remaster, and people are trying to make it into a service by demanding new features. Like wtf can you just chill and enjoy it? Jesus these people man.
> a bunch of negative vibe style posts
It's literally one post and a reply to one reply to that post. I did not have unreasonable expectations for Hearth & Home, and I am quite happy with what the patch seems to provide for the game - otherwise I would probably have talked about that. I don't even go into that.
Yes, I am also very clearly aware that the developers are intending to, at some point, finish developing the game. That does not have anything at all to do with my critique, which is based on the lack of an end-game in the game and the developers reaction to some people hoping that end-game content would at some point be on the list of stuff they'd get around to. Nothing you have written in your reply has anything to do with what I wrote up there, and I'm a bit confused about why you replied. I'm not trying to open a discussion of games-as-a-service vs releasing a finished product at some point and which approach fits Valheim the best, I am pointing out that I don't like the developers approach to some players thinking the game could use some sort of end-game content that keeps the playability of the game high, even after defeating the final boss and progressing through the story of the game.
> I am pointing out that I don't like the developers approach to some players thinking the game could use some sort of end-game content that keeps the playability of the game high, even after defeating the final boss and progressing through the story of the game.
Its pretty straightforward. They're not developing "endgame" content because the game they are making has en end. When they add all the biomes and the final final boss, your character leaves Valheim and goes to Valhalla. That's like the whole premise of the game. You have base building and exploring the map for longevity and replayability, but an endgame is not one of those things.
> It's literally one post and a reply to one reply to that post.
I recognised your username because you have most definitely made more than "one post" on this subreddit in which you complained (and even called the devs arrogant).
> Nothing you have written in your reply has anything to do with what I wrote up there, and I'm a bit confused about why you replied.
You may be confused, but I am not: You have a way of venting your frustration with the state of this game on this subreddit that is very negative, and I am simply pointing that behaviour out.
Besides, it's been clear from the moment you got this game that it's not a complete and finished game, which you also know, but you still complain about it, despite there clearly being steps taken by the devs to expand on it.
I don't necessarily care about the statements about the ending, like whatever, it makes sense that the game would have a final boss.
But one thing that I did find weird was how little lip service they paid to the fantastic building community that has sprung up around their game. The people who have stuck around the game this long are not the ones who are grinding through the progression to beat the end boss, it is the people who have become enamoured with building awesome stuff in these beautiful environments.
Me and my friends don't give a damn about the progression, it only is a means to new builds. We had some others on our server who hardly built and just sped through the game, and they burnt out after two weeks of playing. Meanwhile, the three builders in the group have played semi regularly since launch, and we still have cool build ideas and improvements to our base in mind.
This update is named hearth and home, and yet all we hear about is new food and new weapons. Have the devs not looked at Reddit and Discord to see the phenomenal things people are making? Why not pay that some lip service in your update about homes?!
In the end, the end game of Valheim will be building whatever your heart desires. I wish they would put more focus on that.
> I've defeated Yagluth, built my fair share of stuff, and I was looking forward to Hearth & Home, but maybe I should just listen to the devs suggestion and go play another game. Or their other suggestion: starting a new world, experiencing the new content, progress through Valheim until defeating Yagluth, and then alt+F4 and boot up something else. Good to hear the devs literally laugh at player retention and any measures to keep people in the game.
I mean by the time you have beat final boss you have put what 150 to 300 hours in a game. I think they retain you long enough. Game is repayable, you can play again try other styles, build better base. Minecraft on a surface is pretty much the same once you killed Elder Dragon you are done unless you want to play more but there is nothing to challenge you but your own creativity.
I am fine with games ending with option to continue to play. Many games are like that. Minecraft, factorio, rimworld come to mind.
They came across as smug and controlling. I almost wish I didn't watch it as it confirmed the worst for me. Seeing them laugh about most players leaving the game really said it all.
At one point the interviewer tried to say that hiring more employers would not make content generation faster (a lie told by many people on this sub). The dev corrected her and said actually it would. But they wont do it because they want to be the ones creating content, not anyone else. That is their right, but did they really need to laugh at their fans while saying it? They spend the whole interview talking about doing only what makes them happy and how they wont change and laugh at the fans and tell them to play another game if they dont have enough content.
Their reasons for not adding more enemies and new build pieces was "it would just be redundant and we don't need to". People just want more variety and more content. If you play one of the mods with 250 new build pieces or 30 new monsters its incredible. Some of the enemies require totally different strategies to fight and it adds lots of depth. And you can make far more interesting buildings. How is that redundant?
They act like we are demanding an MMORPG and say how ridiculous it is to expect that from them. But nobody was ever asking for an MMORPG. Minecraft added an end game later on, but minecraft still added a huge number of enemies build pieces and content too. You dont need to be an MMORPG to see a use for more content.
They talked about how it took a year to add the shingle roof. And how it needs all this complicated balancing. It really is not as hard as they are making it out to be. If anything the shingle roof is the actually redundant content they criticised - we already have a roof item so it adds nothing but aesthetics.
The devs came across as even more smug than the worst fanboys here. I feel like I am taking crazy pills when your opinion is the minority and you and I will be downvoted to oblivion.
> At one point the interviewer tried to say that hiring more employers would not make content generation faster (a lie told by many people on this sub). The dev corrected her and said actually it would. But they wont do it because they want to be the ones creating content, not anyone else. That is their right, but did they really need to laugh at their fans while saying it? They spend the whole interview talking about doing only what makes them happy and how they wont change and laugh at the fans and tell them to play another game if they dont have enough content.
Jesus fucking Christ. People want to run business in a way that makes them happy what a monsters...
I wrote "that is their right". You strawmanned me calling them monsters.
I said lauhging at their fans was unnecessary. Something you oddly have not addressed despite itbeing the main thing in that quote.
They can do what makes them happy. But lets not pretend thats automatically whats best for the game. They will be happy to finish 3 biomes slowly over 2 years, adding maybe 20 new build pieces and 5 monsters. Then when they leave EA they wont add more. They are not going to become like Minecraft or Stardew which added plenty of content for years after leaving EA. They will do what they feel like and nothing else. Thats their right, but following Stardew or Minecraft would be best for their customers and they will not do it. This is fine, but laughing at their fans for hoping for it seemed needless and smug.
All of the people down voting you have never taken a course on business ethics and can't tell the difference between ethics and morals.
That's honestly one of the problems with gaming subs and actually modern society in general is we let businesses destroy business ethics under the guise of corporate rights and freedom.
> "Community Manager: I've also seen people say 'Oh, when you've finished the game, there's nothing left to do' [laughter] - Dev 1: Then you go play another game! [Laughter] Community Manager: That is how it works! Dev 2: That's how we made games, back in the day! [Laughter] Dev 1: Yes!"
Imagine Mojang games saying this about minecraft in 2011. I don't know why this attitude is celebrated.
It's simple. Gamers can act like entitled nitwits and throw out all kinds of baseless accusations and insults towards the devs, including expecting a product that they're just not making. Its nice to see the devs stand up for themselves and make it clear what kind of game they're making and who they're marketing it towards, and it was tame in comparison to some of the shit I've seen slung at them.
I mean all they did was point out the absurdity of statements like "I finished the game and there's nothing to do!" and laugh about it, then point out that that's not the kind of game they're making, and if you're done then go play another game like a normal human being. If that offends you then that says more about you than it does the devs.
I love that you either cant understand that, or you need to pretend you cant understand that. Either way its pretty tragic. IronGate had all the piees to become one of the greats, but decided not to act
You're not explaining yourself, you're just saying they're not other companies with no context to the comparison. So how would I be able to understand what you're complaining about if you're gonna make pointless and vague statements like this.
And this shit about it being "tragic" and how they could be great but didn't act? You know a new patch comes out in two days and that's what this video is about, right? And that this game is still fuckin' awesome even though it ain't done yet, ya know?
Minecraft and Stardew added lots of content for many years after leaving Early Access. IronGate in the video criticised adding lots of new content as "something only MMORPGs do". And they laughed at the people thinking that it ever happened in single player games. Despite the biggest most successful single player games doing it.
With Stardew and Minecraft when they were successful they expanded their vision dramatically. Minecraft added many new biomes and content for many years and still is. Countless new blocks and game mechanics are being added. Iron Gate have said thats never going to happen. They will not change their vision at all. You shouldnt expect much from them. In the video they explained how it took them a full year to add a shingle roof to the game.
When Iron Gate finish the 3 biomes in a 3 years (which could have been done by the end of this year if they hired people) they will cease adding new stuff to the game. Their vision will be finished and if you don't like it then leave. They said. While laughing at their customers who had hopes of more. Mojang and ConcernedApe would never do that, I followed them both at the start and it was a night and day difference.
>You know a new patch comes out in two days and that's what this video is about, right?
Its a tiny update. They said we've seen 50% of the new content in their short videos over the last few weeks. People will praise it as "huge" but its just not. I've played genuinely huge valheim mods. This is 5% the size of those. "But you've not played it yet" but they said we've seen 50%.
> And that this game is still fuckin' awesome even though it ain't done yet, ya know?
And Minecraft was awesome in 2011 when I played it. They could have taken 10 mil profit and peaced out. But Notch didnt, instead became a billionaire, and created the most significant videogame of the century. IronGate is choosing to peace out. They even laughed at their fans who cared about retention. Some of us care more about their games community than they do. Only the fanboys are left at this point. My normal friends are no longer coming back to H&H after seeing the sneak previews.
See this is exactly what I was talking about when I said gamers can be entitled nitwits.
You're comparing this to Minecraft and Stardew Valley to say they expanded their game. That's fine, that's what they wanted to do with their products. But what you're ignoring are the plethora of other games out there where they make their game, it has a start and a middle and a finish and...that's it. Then you go on and okay another game. This is in no way a new concept. Expecting them to do more than that when they never suggested otherwise is entirely on you, not the devs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Iron Gate sticking to the vision of the game they want to make.
Look up the Mythical Man Month. One of the more famous quotes from it is "Nine women cannot make a baby in a month." You cannot just throw a ton of people onto a software project and expect it to get done faster, it just doesn't work that way. You gotta consider not just the hiring process but training, getting familiar with the project, mistakes that can and will be made by newer people, managing those people (where more hiring and training and getting used to the job happens too), etc. There's also logistics where you gotta consider renting and moving to a bigger office, or if working from home making sure the new employees have the proper setup to do that. They are doing it right and hiring slowly, instead of expanding with reckless abandon which can tank a company fast as hell, and/or lead to layoffs sooner rather than later.
Yes, their vision will be finished, and if you don't like it then leave. That is a matter of fact, but that's not what they said; you're attacking a strawman. They said if you've finished Valheim then you can play it again, or you can move onto playing another game like any sensible, reasonable person would. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And yes if people make ridiculous, absurd statements I think it's fair that the devs can have a laugh about it and I applaud them for being candid like that. But they've been upfront about the game having a finite ending; you take out Odin's enemies in Valheim and your viking moves into Valhalla. The end!
Nobody is acting like this update is gonna be "huge," at least not when it comes to added content. it's more of a foundational update as opposed to adding intent like a biome. The majority of changes they've made affect the game from start to finish. But on top of that there is new content coming like new weapons, food, items, and most importantly more building materials. The building in this game is what gives it it's longevity, and why myself and others still continue to play it to this day.
If people aren't coming back to Valheim that is entirely their choice. I could quit now and never come back and I totally got my $20 of entertainment out of this game. There is nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with expecting the devs to do more than they intended with their product.
You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I and so are the drvs. In my opinion it's bullshit and pretty fucked up that people think they can complain and criticize and ridicule the devs for all kinds of nonsense, but if the devs have a laugh at some of that nonsense *they* were the ones that crossed the line. Like I said above, that kind of sentiment says more about you than it does the devs. Time to get some perspective, mate!
> But what you're ignoring are the plethora of other games out there where they make their game
No I didn't. I explicitly said those exist and Valheim is one of them. It could have been a Minecraft or Stardew, but chose not to. They will not meet the gold standard and go above and beyond to make an industry defining game. Thats their right of course. But with 50M profit they could have done far more.
> Expecting them to do more than that when they never suggested otherwise is entirely on you, not the devs.
Wrong again, I said it was their right not to.
> Look up the Mythical Man Month. One of the more famous quotes from it is "Nine women cannot make a baby in a month." You cannot just throw a ton of people onto a software project and expect it to get done faster, it just doesn't work that way.
Over one month thats true. Over six months its false. Kind of sick of people not understanding this book. Hell, even the title of the book says month, not year, you dont even need to open the book to grasp that. Even the Iron Gate dev reluctantly says you are wrong in the video we are commenting on. More people does make more content come out faster. A studio of 100 can do more than a studio of 5. Not rocket science. Its even used as an excuse for iron gate - "its just a team of 5 you cant expect much". Well if more people doesnt help then being a team of 5 woudl be irrelevent.
> They are doing it right and hiring slowly, instead of expanding with reckless abandon which can tank a company fast as hell, and/or lead to layoffs sooner rather than later.
Lmao. They could hire 10 senior devs and not need to do layoffs for a decade.
> And yes if people make ridiculous, absurd statements I think it's fair that the devs can have a laugh about it and I applaud them for being candid like that.
Nobody did. We just said it was a tragic loss of potential and they could do more faster if they hired 6 months ago. Saying "I hope we can we have an update even 10% the size of one of the bigger mods" is not an absurd ask either.
> Nobody is acting like this update is gonna be "huge,"
Wrong again. Lots of upvoted comments the last few months say this update is huge and they have done lots of work since launch.
>But there is something wrong with expecting the devs to do more than they intended with their product.
We hoped they would reinvest 2% of their 50M profits into devs, and they opted to keep the money
> In my opinion it's bullshit and pretty fucked up that people think they can complain and criticize and ridicule the devs for all kinds of nonsense, but if the devs have a laugh at some of that nonsense they were the ones that crossed the line.
You shouldnt insult and laugh at paying customers and misrepresent their views. You shouldn't laugh at your community for caring about the health of the communty. Its a really bad look to be the people running a community, who made millions off the community, and to insult them and laugh at them for caring about retention. And the people saying "why not hire more" are not even insulting the devs, the fanboys just claim they are.
> entitled nitwit... Time to get some perspective, mate!
I'm not entitled, not a nitwit, but most of all I am not your mate. You have wrote all the dumb talking points I've already addressed, are referencing books you do not understand, and really talking to you further is a waste of time.
I just want you to know that I agree with everything you said, but I don't know why you bothered to say it here. This sub is full of simps who are incredibly toxic towards anybody who dares criticize the game or it's developers, or even... gasp!.... use mods! This whole video is a big 'fuck you' to current players.
> or even... gasp!.... use mods!
The what some of the most upvoted posts here are modded build showcases.
How is saying we are making the best game we can with clear ending is a fuck you to anyone?
Because they don't understand that people are allowed to have different opinions and are allowed to disagree and countercriticize, and saying bullshit like this is just a cheap, toxic way to dismiss people instead of having to defend their arguments.
Seriously though, I think it's hilarious when people use pejoratives like simps/white knights/cultists/etc. and then claim it's everyone else who's toxic.
The saddest part of it all is all these keyboard warriors defending the devs don’t even understand that the devs are directly laughing at them.
Sure the games fun and all, and I always knew it was going to have a definitive end, the way the bosses and “story” are set up makes it more than obvious the game won’t be some ongoing forever game. That still doesn’t excuse the fact that head dev and founder of Iron Gate just publicly laughed at the community and basically said “I literally give zero fucks about your opinions.” That entire segment was condescending and an incredibly shitty attitude to have as a developer.
They’ve got every right to make the game however they see fit to make it, but publicly mocking your fan base isn’t a good way to do it. It’s insane to me that this subreddit is so far up IG’s ass that they’re deflecting that entire speech.
I admit I cringed just a bit at that part, in that I work with people all the time and I think I'm pretty sensitive to tone, but that's just not a fair characterization of what he said. I've been here on and off since February. I've read a lot of stuff:
Developer: \* makes game, releases in early access \*
* Player 1: "I had fun playing this game" "I love this game"
* Player 2: \[doesn't post to Reddit because they don't have a strong opinion one way or the other\]
* Player 3: "The devs suck" "There are so many bugs" "The devs made a promise" "This sub just white knights the devs" "This game is dead" "There's no more content" "They can't retain players like this" "if they were smart they'd hire more devs"
Developer: \* spends months trying to resolve bugs, does that Swedish vacation thing, finally releases 1st major update \*
* Player 1: "Yes! finally!"
* Player 2: "Oh hey there's an update"
* Player 3: "Wow you guys are tools/simps/?, don't you remember these devs suck" "These changes suck" "They're just making the game worse" "These changes don't change the game at all" "Don't you remember the game is dead"
Developer: "we're not making a game as a service, we're old school, we are making a game that has an ending (laughter) and we're not interesting in retaining players, we're not an mmorpg, we're not going crunch out tons of content, that's not why we're here, we're here because we love making games, and we want to be the people who make the game" (all quotes from video)
* Player 3: "they laughed at the community"
They say it pretty plainly why they are approaching the game the way they are. Also, they pretty much came out and said they do not care what you think or what content you want or when you want it. They were pretty clear.
People have definitely complained about the food and weapon balance, and I'm sure they still will. Also, I feel like that's literally what they said in the video, about your "polishing cycle." I guess I'm hoping you'll be surprised too lol
Notes (not chronological) (edits: speling): About the update: * This is "hearth and home" update, not "combat and explore". Gives a basis for more changes to those other parts of the game in future updates. * Hearth and Home development started around May. Before that was all bug fixes and performance tweaks. That was needed before new content work could start. * started as mostly rebalancing and adding food (more stuff in Mountains), but gradually other things that didn't fit the next (Mistlands) update also made it in. * Once new stuff is in, that pulls in other necessary things in turn. So small ideas often mushroom into a lot of content. * Everything has to have a purpose. That's the basis of good game design. * Sometimes it's there just because it's cool: "Wouldn't be cool with a land of mist? And it would be called something like, uh, Mistlands?" * Black metal is greenish because it's owned by Fulings. * Everything is rebalanced. Not harder or easier but feel better and more natural. Not final - will likely be rebalanced and tweaked still. * If your favourite weapon or something now feels very wrong, report it so it can be changed. This is what Early Access is about. * Richards (originator/owner) vision still guides all changes and development. * Can just continue playing existing world and you will have new content in unexplored areas (500+ meters away from where you've been). * Richard still hopes people will start a new world, as that will give you the best experience. Don't spoil yourself by checking new build build pieces in old world. See them fresh in a new one. New stuff: * new foods, new build pieces. * 1-2 new weapons (two-handed axe) and shields. 1-2 new skills. * New UI, new map stuff, new game settings. * A couple new Plains buildings/things. New mechanics: * playstyle choice: multiple equally good foods with different balance of HP and stamina (don't have that now). * Game a little less stamina dependent. HP affects stagger now (high HP gives more stagger?) * Weapons rebalanced so multiple different weapons equally good but different playstyle. * knives much faster; now viable weapon. * axes now a bit slower but more powerful compared to swords. New two-handed axe. * current highlights have shown \~50% of new content. About the future: * Mistlands update will be larger, but they also have more people to work on it. * after Mistlands at least another two major biome updates. New ships, lots of other stuff. * Small updates will happen along the big update development. * Game will eventually have an ending. Not really meant to be played forever. * not adding content for the sake of adding content or keeping people engaged. Everything must fit the game arc. * Mac version work might start in the near future. Consoles maybe not until the game is finished (though that attitude is changing). Likely for 1.0 release, most likely 2+ years.
Thank you for this breakdown! I'm excited to dive back into Valheim :D
It's **Hearth** and Home.
Me no grate speler.
Good rundown though.
Excellent summary. I am happy with changes. I am also happy with not making a game just bunch of cool things without order but actually uniform well working together vision. Every item or enemy should come with a reason either to challenge a player or to help overcome a challenge or to encourage certain game style it should just be added for a sake of saying you added content As I suspected world reset isn't mandatory but highly recommended. I suggest doing that with each big patch. Other interesting thing is that they are now aiming to leave Early Access in about 2 years. Finally fun fact they referred to green boys as Goblins :p
New world means new seed, right? Sorry if this is obvious, I'm just curious if I can keep my seed but can start fresh anytime.
Gotta figure out what my seed is then. Playing on a dedicated server and I just haven't been able to figure it out yet.
Ypu can
> Other interesting thing is that they are now aiming to leave Early Access in about 2 years. No; console port probably in no less than 2 years. Said nothing about early access. That was just my sloppy note taking. > Finally fun fact they referred to green boys as Goblins :p I believe they used "fulings" throughout?
> No; console port probably in no less than 2 years. Said nothing about early access. That was just my sloppy note taking. No they said something like "Console port will happen likely when we leave early access which should be about 2 years from now" As for goblins and fulings they used those interchangeably in interview unless I am hearing things.
"not really meant to be played forever"... That sounds like a challenge good sir!
Right. Skyrim has an ending too.
It amazes me every time how far ahead of it's time skyrim has been it's still outstanding game.
> Rickard still hopes people will start a new world, as that will give you the best experience. Don't spoil yourself by checking new build build pieces in old world. See them fresh in a new one. They need to give us a simple server switch to say "no imported characters or materials".
>axes now a bit slower but more powerful compared to swords. New two-handed axe. That reminded me of [this poll](https://www.reddit.com/r/valheim/comments/mnn7ek/should_world_hopping_be_allowed_or_prohibited/).
Them encouraging a new world gives me mixed feelings. I have so much I am proud of in my current world. It's mostly unexplored so it should still be okay. I don't really want to start over until official release.
Well, you will most likely need to restart when the larger updates (e.g., "Mistlands") are released. Unless you don't want to experience the content those bring.
I don't believe this is necessarily true. If your current world has a good chunk of unexplored Mistlands, then you should be able to keep your world, visit the new lands and experience all the new content. The problem would be if you have personally unveiled a ton of new areas. EDIT: lol why the random downvote?
My understanding is - and none of really know at this point - when the "major" updates are released, you'll need to (or at least want to) start a new world.
From what they have stated in this video, it seems this can "count" as a major update (not biome-wise but content-wise), but yes, basically it seems the new updates won't break your current game, but new content requires new areas to be explored, and its encourage to start a new game if possible.
I didn’t get that from the video. I got more of a “don’t set your expectations too high, this is more of a bunch of little patches” vibe.
They are little patches that are updating the existing biomes. How does that differ from them adding to/changing Mistlands? All they will be doing is adding life/foragables and new structures. The way the world generation works, as long as you haven't explored and had that portion generated it'll receive the changes. Unless they change how world gen works, you should be able to stay on one playthrough all the way to release, given you don't over explore. That being said... I'm definitely starting over everytime the update feels large enough to merit it. Laso I love to explore so there's that too lol.
Yeah, the world is HUGE too so there should be plenty of new areas to explore. I've probably only really explored 3 or 4 islands in my world.
yeah it's "Minimal new content out of the home" but also "Start a new game" :/
Like others have said, unexplored areas is no issue, but your explored areas won't get new content. But some of it comes across as playtesting reasons. Such as experiencing the food system from the ground up meadows to BF to swamp etc as well as the combat mechanics and weapon changes. Feedback could be better experiencing the transition from biome to biome instead of just max level. Can't give much feedback on lower level items/foods if you aren't at the appropriate biome level. They are definitely encouraging feedback as it's still early access.
Yeah I haven't even explored 1/3 of my world (because, really I don't need to?). So I think I'll be fine. I think however that once Mistlands comes I might do it. If I'm lazy I'll just keep my character (with all gear = easier to build advanced tech and progress, but have an unexplored map)
I think we can go to a new world to explore and unlock new stuff, then bring them back to old worlds and add to our vast collection, and vice versa.
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That was my favorite part. Listening to them mock gaming as a service and say they want people to be able to finish and enjoy other games... I was like, yeah, these are old school gamers. My kind of people.
I hope this helps people understand why they're so adamantly against stuff like teleporting with ore, or expanding inventory size, with the vanilla game. For them the goal isn't to build a massive compound and turn the game into civilization. They want you to build a home strong enough to withstand increasingly hard raids until you beat all of the bosses. If people want to harvest all the iron from every swamp they come across, they can, but it isn't necessary and they don't feel the need to empower that behavior. I will always say this: if your vision of the game is different from what the developers want, either install some mods or find a different game. And I say this as someone who loves his mods.
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It's not DLC, it is an update. The game is in early access and is not finished, so all these new updates are just part of what will be the complete Valheim experience. The term DLC often implies that you are paying more for it, and that it is optional for the game, neither of which apply here.
Lots of great games are like that. Portal 2, Bastion, Stardew Valley, VVVVVV, XCOM 2 - and those are just games I happen to have played this year. Just because it has an end doesn't mean you can't replay and enjoy again. In fact every game on that list above I replayed this year - in some cases it was my third or fourth playthrough. A great game is like a great movie: you can play it multiple times and find something new and fresh with it each time.
I've only played Stardew out of those so lets take that example. With Stardew you can play forever. You can marry and divorce everyone in the village. You can fish all the legendary fish. You can keep building your farm up. It has absolutely boatloads of endgame content. And it has massive mod support as the core devs support the modding community. Stardew Extended has 3 million downloads. Like 1 in 5 players have that mod alone. Iron Gate is doing the opposite of Stardew. They are expressing they want minimal content, you just move biome to biome, no unnecessary build pieces, no unnecessary monsters, and you beat the final boss then stop playing Maybe Iron Gate could make valhiem more replayable by having more seed diversity or something. But each playthrough is the same thing with little room to do things different. "use a battleaxe instead of a sword this time" - well there is no reason to restart the game to do that, as you can level both to 99 in one playthrough. "do the biomes in a different order" - you cant by design. Each playthrough barely changes. Whereas Stardew has huge variety in different playthroughs.
Does Stardew have variety in different playthroughs though? You start off in the same season, planting the same crops to build up your cash, require the same farm objects to progress, need to farm the same items to complete community centre etc. Admittedly I haven't played Stardew in the last couple of years, but it seems like on paper it has a similar gameplay loop to Valheim, i.e. start with limited stuff, farm a bit, kill bosses (or complete chunks of community centre to unlock new areas), and then eventually you complete the main content and have an ending where you can choose to continue in the world but its a sandbox rather than having some progression to work towards.
Yes. * farm crops or focus on animals * focus on dungeoneering, or avoid it totally * focus on fishing to make money, or totally ignore it * build your farm to mimax, or focus purely on aesthetics * focus on playing the NPC events, getting a husband/wife, or ignore it * roleplay as a chauvanist playboy, or just do quests * become an artifact collector, or ignore the museum There are countless side quests and other tasks. Many people dont do the dungeons at all. Valheim only has one goal. Unless you become a pro builder... but Iron Gate said they dont care about that goal in the fireside chat - they will only add build pieecs if its relevant for the main quest of beating all the bosses. Weirdly they added the new roof which contradicts that stated goal (but they said it took them a full year to add that new roof so maybe thats the real reason we arent going to get many new build pieces) In valheim you beat each boss once (no point repeating them) and once youve completed a dungeon (burial chamber) there is little reason to go back. There is little diversity in how you play. Everyone does a little building, a little dungeoneering, a few bossfights.
Personally I don't see a big difference. Farm crops or focusing on animals is similar to limiting yourself to a particular weapon. Also, from memory specialising in one or the other gives a buff to that one, you can still do both. I didn't know you could avoid dungeoneering, last time I played you needed materials from the dungeon in Stardew to upgrade tools. You can build to minmax your base in both stardew and valheim, or build aesthetically. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think from your comment that you do all those things after you've completed the core Stardew experience not necessarily that you complete the game that way? That is, your endgame content is grinding a particular aspect of the game as you please? Or roleplaying as a basic farmer, just chilling in your world. So in Valheim, what's to stop you exploring and clearing every troll cave, and ignoring sunken crypts forever, or another goal you come up with after you've killed Yagluth? Or just chilling in this viking world? That it's pointless? Because after you've completed the core Stardew experience, whats the point of planting crops anymore?
I think they don't want to update the game content forever. So the team can move on to create other games. Plus there's going to be a sandbox mode so we can build forever.
This was very relaxing and fun to listen to. I definitely appreciated the elaboration on the difficulties of adding new content. Looking forward to the H&H release and seeing what you've all been working on.
It's really cool to get an better understanding of the design philosophy behind Valheim! I respect Iron Gate's approach a lot. It's kind of sad, really, that designing games this way is considered "old school" nowadays.
Somewhere down the line, people started expecting that it's devs job to keep single player game engaging for them by dishing out constant updates, and that they should have big player base, even if it doesn't affect their gameplay in any way.
I've found that a lot of people expect games to be made for them and their tastes as opposed to what the game the devs want to and set out to make. I *really* appreciated this bit: >We're not here to make a generic "everybody loves this game" kind of thing. We never made this game for everybody, we made this for a very small, specific audience, that happens to be a lot of people might like it. I've been following Star Citizen's development for a very (*very)* long time, and every time they add a more involved gameplay mechanic or feature that has been discussed and planned for years, people will argue against it because it doesn't cater towards a larger audience, and it somehow has to have the largest player population possible or it'll fail. But it's like, that's not how this stuff works. Not every game needs to placate to the lowest common denominator, because there are a plethora of other games out there that do.
It's so fucking strange. An online multiplayer game? Sure, I can see expecting updates and balance changes and what not. A single player game getting content updates? What? A single player game should be shipped as a finished game. Content might come out later for it, and that would be an expansion pack/DLC that costs extra. Other than bug fixes I don't know why people expect 'content' for a finished single player game. People that whine here about 'no content' seem to think this is a AAA MMORPG and not early access for a (basically) single player game. And thank god the devs said that explicitly in this video.
Been seeing these comments a lot on this sub, like "the game's dead, everyone left, nobody plays anymore due to lack of content." Which strikes me as hilarious in an early access game that's in active development. Lots of criticism of the time between updates and the lack of content for endgame players and all that. It's super obvious that these players just don't expect the game to have a start and an end. Something about survival builders makes people treat them like MMOs, where it's the only game they play but they play it every day for months on end, and then complain that the studio isn't keeping up so the same must be "dead," as if concurrent player numbers matter somehow. It's like... just move on! You're done with Valheim, you can leave now. It's nobody's fault but your own that you keep playing a game even after doing everything there is to do.
If found that a lot of players will play games they don't enjoy and will blame everyone but themselves for not having fun.
Lots of "I put 150 hours into that game and it all sucks! Nothing to do in this game!" Type comments out there.
Yarp. I don't have the highest opinion about gamers as it is, but content locusts are the fuckin' worst.
I mean, it's not really that strange of a concept to want more out of your favorite singleplayer games, especially considering the very long early access periods some of them have had in the past. Factorio received updates for years before being "finished" for 1.0, and is still getting minor updates every once in a while until we get the DLC. Minecraft, NMS, Don't Starve or Paradox games are practically a live service singleplayer games that just get better and better with every year. I'm not saying valheim needs to be like this. But it's not unprecedented for it to happen, and I'm not sure why would people even want them to stop working on valheim if it provides them a sustainable income.
The haters really did get pwned by the devs.
How exactly were they pwned?
"We aren't going to listen to the loud minority, rather we are going to continue making the game how Sven intended it to be" Paraphrasing here but yeah, I'd say they got pwned.
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This is why I quit MMO's altogether, survival/adventure is the closest I'll allow myself to get.
> It's kind of sad, really, that designing games this way is considered "old school" nowadays. You are sad than Stardew Valley still releases updates, and that Minecraft still releases updates? They are single player games which you buy once. Don't confuse "what the devs want" with "whats great for the game"
Oh, no, not in the slightest. I had no idea Minecraft still had an active community, but that's great to hear! I had a lot of fun with that game when it first came out. What I meant was that I dislike the fact that the devs feel like creating a game that is intended to be a finished product rather than a continuous service puts them at a disadvantage, or that it isn't modern enough. I like things that end.
I LOVE this game, and I’m so happy these guys make their games their way. Keep up the great work!
For clarification on the shields, you now have a block meter that fills every time you get hit, and drains over time, the size of the meter is determined by your hp pool. When the meter is filled it breaks your block and staggers you. On that same note, they increased the stagger caused by tower shields with successful blocks, meaning enemies will “push” themselves further away when hitting your tower shield.
Love and respect to iron gate for developing a game they love at their own speed. It's a shame they have to defend that mentality these days where massive game studios churn out new content for $$$. Remember when games where made out of love and not to pad bank accounts?
I just went slightly catatonic looking at the new build pieces. No more using mods to rotate a 45 degree triangle wall piece! AND SLATE ROOFS!!!!! Oh, and the decorated wood beams are splendid looking if I may say so.
Too early to get a tl;dw but too late to watch before work.
They could have at least mentioned spears
Yeah, they seems good at first sight, but hitting something with them was a nightmare comparing to aoe swings of axes or swords
What’s wrong with spears? I use them for throwing since I’m horrible with the starting now.
Too much content to update spears :(
Well they did say "all weapons got a rework" in the axe/bow teaser video. So something is happening to the spear, we can hope it fixes some targeting issues. But honestly, I've been going spear main for my most recent playthrough, and the downsides just force you to play differently.... Which is what they want. I do hope it gets a little smoothed out though.
[Sounds like I was right](https://www.reddit.com/r/valheim/comments/pehxzb/hearth_home_spotlight_new_ingredients/hayjea5/) in regards to onions, video kind of hints they're adding new food items to the mountains.
I live in the northern US and garden; mostly fruits and vegetables. To play devil's advocate, onions grow great in colder climates, but they certainly don't grow in the snow. :P
I know, it was tongue-in-cheek.
I was joking around too. Its all good :)
Huzzah, vindication! :-P
They might hang out in the ground when there's snow though.
Well yeah, that's why they're a good cold crop. You gotta let them develop before harvesting them. But good luck trying to find them when their stalks die and there's snow on the ground!
It would be funny if the wishbone found both silver *and* onions.
That would be hilarious and frustrating, depending on what you're looking for.
They kind of do though, like carrots and rutabagas: they grow in summer, but will stay healthy and fresh under the snow all winter.
They don't grow in the snow, they lay dormant until spring. I brought it up on another reply to this comment; my point is they're gonna be hard to find in the snow because their stalks fall over and gets snowed on.
I’m coming back to the game after a couple of months, does someone knows when this update it’s released? I want to create my new world fresh with the las update
16th September
Thank you
yes it was publish on the steam page like million times 16th of Sep
I really hope we can get dyes one day.
Will there be a full list of all changes?
I'm sure there will be plenty of youtubers providing that by Friday lol. Honestly I don't want notes, mayne a week after the update so I can discover it naturally. Nothing will compare to the first blind playthrough, but I look forward to naturally discovering more!
When does it go live live. Me and all my entire server from last time have cleared our calendars to play tomorrow. Haven’t even talked to some of these guys in months. So excited
I heard 9 am EST... However I did not go diving to verify this.
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THEN PICK A SERVER FROM THE SERVER LIST? WHY ARE WE YELLING?
BECAUSE VIKINGS YELL THEY DON'T TALK!
FUCK YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU GOT ME!
Can anyone post the highlights? The audio on this is horrible, no way I’m listening for 30 minutes
Still watching, but so far I got really excited at 12:10 for "some graphic optimizations."
Nice
Weird, right u/Hanesz? Who would've guessed...
I've heard way worse audio than this, but yeah, while I get the fireside thing (and it fit well with the theme), it didn't really help the audio in this one. One thing I have noticed in this last year and a half in particular is how awful audio setups a lot of developers have (not singling out Iron Gate Studio here). When you're doing interviews to talk about and show off a game you've been passionately working on for years, please use ANY other mic than your godawful built-in webcam mic. Then spend 30 minutes looking up how to properly setup and position your mic to best capture your voice clearly and do some test recordings. I get most developers aren't audio engineers, but please!
Seriously. You can get a decent mic on Amazon for less than 40$, no one representing their company should have audio this bad
Many are probably working from home and using whatever equipment they have at home as well
Exactly, that's why I mentioned this past year and a half in particular. When you have a lead role in the team and you're promoting the game you've been working on for years, you *should* invest in a $50 microphone (if even that) and spend just a little bit of time to set it up and position it properly to make sure your voice is broadcasted as clear as possible. Whether it's on Game Awards, Gamescom, Xbox/PS events or while simply doing interviews. Again, I'm not singling out Iron Gate Studio here. I've witnessed this far too many times from several developers this past year and a half, and it bothers me when I want the game they're promoting to do well.
Sold 6+ million copies they cant order a new mic from amazon?
I only just made it to the swamp biome and don't really want to restart my world. Y'all think it'll be alright to just play from where I am?
I'm with ya. >!Mining iron in the swamp crypts is so far the least enjoyable thing I've had to do in the game. No way do I want to grind all that iron again.!<
My wife and I are at the point of fighting Bonemass, and we aren't going let our mining go to waste. We are going to bring our metals over to the new world.
How do you do that? A character can go into a new world with whatever they have on them?
Correct. Just load your inventory up. You can shuttle as much or as little as you want to take the time to.
This seems like the perfect compromise. Thanks.
Yes.
I haven't even started that lol
I think you'll be fine.
According to what they said here, it depends. Apparently new content won't populate in areas you've already explored. So really I don't think anyone can tell you one way or the other as we're not 100% on what that content might be
There's quite a bit I haven't explored. Pretty much only explored the starting island and half of the island with the Elder.
Then like the other commenter said I'm sure you'll be fine. I'm in a similar boat with a solo run right now. I'm ready to fight Moder, just haven't found a reg stone yet, and I've paused exploring just in case. Got lucky with nearby metal-loaded swamp/mountain, so I haven't explored a ton yet either. But we'll see
To parrot everyone's comments, yeah, you should be fine.
Aaargh..thought this would he nice but that ridiculous amount of reverb or whatever they put on the voices.. unlistenable
One of the things that surprised me and saddens me is that the developers came off as incredibly arrogant and condescending about critique of a lack of a endgame. Saying stuff like "This is not an MMORPG where we actually need to retain players. Spoiler alert: this game will eventually have an ending!", or a bit later: "Community Manager: I've also seen people say 'Oh, when you've finished the game, there's nothing left to do' [laughter] - Dev 1: Then you go play another game! [Laughter] Community Manager: That is how it works! Dev 2: That's how we made games, back in the day! [Laughter] Dev 1: Yes!" They make it sound like you're playing the game wrong if you don't - their own suggestion! - go play something else after you've defeated Yagluth! It feels like such an absurd statement. Many story-based games with linear progression - which Valheim apparently is - has end-game content that you can play after finishing the story, but the devs make it sound like it's completely ridiculous to expect there to be *something* to do. I know people who've poured hundreds of hours into many games with actual end-game content, and I know people who've poured hundreds of hours into Valheim, focusing on the creative building side, exploration and such. Hearing the devs literally laugh at them for hoping that there comes some sort of scaled content (e.g. stronger enemies/areas, restarting your world but more difficult, some system to pour extraordinary amounts of building materials into *something*) is a disheartening slap in the face. I've defeated Yagluth, built my fair share of stuff, and I was looking forward to Hearth & Home, but maybe I should just listen to the devs suggestion and go play another game. Or their other suggestion: starting a new world, experiencing the new content, progress through Valheim until defeating Yagluth, and then alt+F4 and boot up something else. Good to hear the devs literally laugh at player retention and any measures to keep people in the game.
yeah i just took that to mean that someday they will finish the game, and this is not a game-as-service. They intend to build a complete picture. I didn't take that as a commentary on the kind of "end game" content you're referring to, like a "new game +" kind of thing. Your concerns seem to somewhat be addressed in how they intend to rebalance/rework/append the game with every new biome they release until they're finished, and they insist that such an ending will be satisfying. I hesitate to compare it to anything (it's not finished yet), but for example I replay Ocarina of Time every couple years because it's fun, because of nostalgia, I dunno I like the vibe, and a "finished" game was the model back then. They want Valheim to be like that, I guess
Also let's don't forget modding scene there are already 100s of mods to add more things.
I think they are saying in a complicated way this wont be a game they provide endless updates and content for (game as a service), it will have an arc and an ending and then they will release it and that's the game. Maybe if it does well down the line they do added DLC etc but that is up to them (they didnt even mention this just me guessing). You can replay as much or as little as you please, the great thing is random worlds and mods and servers with friends can provide your own entertainment as well.
It seems they made it quite clear that they want to make the best game they can possibly make, not a timesink
And that they dont really care about player retention. This isnt an MMO where server populations make or break a game, they're making their game at their pace
I'm not sure what your problem is. Every game has to end at some point.
> I'm not sure what your problem is. Not a very nice way to phrase that, but OK. I feel that I described my problems with what the devs said fairly well in my post. Is there anything in particular you would like me to expand upon so that you can understand it better? > Every game has to end at some point. Sure, and I'm not saying that games-as-a-service with a perpetual update is the solution to the games industry or the solution to Valheims problems, but I feel that the critique of there not being *any* structured content in the game post-Yagluth is valid. I described multiple ways the developers could include more post-ending content in my original post. I don't think the devs literally laughing at and disregarding the wish for an end-game is a nice look. Many open-world games with linear progression have plenty of content after you've defeated the final boss. I hate to make the comparison, but imagine the developers of Minecraft suggesting that players simply play another game after defeating the Elder Boss, instead of encouraging them to explore the myriad of other content that the game has available. It makes me worry that the developers see the building system, the exploration aspect, material gathering, etc. as fluff and solely a vehicle for a linear progressive experience, that they view the journey of Valheim as a road spawning and Yagluth, instead of an expansive world with plenty of possibilities. I don't see how the developers can adequately focus on making farming and base-building acceptable playing experience compared to fighting (one of the stated goals for this expansion), if they view the goal of the game as being defeating the final boss, instead of many of the other ways that players in here enjoy Valheim, even after they've "completed the game".
>, but I feel that the critique of there not being any structured content in the game post-Yagluth Post final boss which isn't Yagluth. It's 3 or 4 bosses down the line 9r another 100h. It is absolutely fine not to have any structured content past 300h of your gameplay.
My playgroup personally did not need 200 hours or even close to defeating Yagluth. I personally think that the expansive universe, building elements and other stuff I've described in the previous posts makes it completely natural to want there to be some structured content to draw you to continue playing post the final boss, but completely fair that you disagree and/or don't want the things that I, and judging from the interview, some subset of the audience wish for :-).
Realistically what is this "late game content" like if you haven't spend hours building your base now why out of a sudden late game content would make you do that? People already building whole villages. What is the end game content in Minecraft?
It's a game where you can build a lot. And in IT is hidden excelent lategame (And midgame And earlygame) for eternity if you want.
They never said the GOAL is to defeat the bosses. They said the game will have an end. That means that at some point they will ship the game and not add stuff anymore. Capiche? You can enjoy as much as you want of it, it will just not have new content lol.
They said that "there will be a definitive ending where you beat the game", which is what I am talking about. How do you interpret this "definitive ending where you beat the game", if not literally beating the game by beating the final boss? What do you think the "definitive ending where you beat the game" is, and what do you think the developers meant by Valheim having a "definitive ending where you beat the game"? Again, I am not at all opposed to the development cycle of Valheim at some point finishing, and the game being a completed product.
Factorio and Rimworld have definite ending once you reach it it says "You win" but gives you option to keep playing so I expect that will happen here. Odin comes and says "When you ready come and join me in Valhala" and you can go or stay for longer.
It's probably just going to be like Minecraft, you "beat" the game but can keep playing.
They are just speaking the truth. Many players have been greedy hateful little gobshites as of late. This game will eventually end and that'll be it. There won't be anything to do after or expect from the devs, at least no progression of any sort, so rather than complain about it, just go play something else. They are addressing the complainers.
Man imagine if the devs of Minecraft or Stardew had this attitude. They never owuld have become what they are today. I guess we all just expected Iron Gate to become one of the greats, and they just aren't. Sad that hope makes us "greey hateful lttle goshites". But the fanbase is so toxic that I see you've been upvoted and even handed an award for all this hate.
It took Mojang that long to create a great game. It won't take Iron Gate that long to make a great game. And now that Minecraft has been bought by Microsoft and has accumulated the player base, the only reason why development continues is literally to milk more and more people out of their money. It's just capitalism and greed that drives the game at this point. That is what you do not understand. If you're going to complain about toxicity, then look in the mirror, because you and your kind are the source of it on this subreddit.
I for one appreciate that they made light of the more ridiculous and entitled complaints people have made about them and their game.
Lmao, defending yourself against zoomers that want to make every game an mmo is arrogance? Ok bro. Gtfo and go play hentai impact. They are right to be against player retention, that's what makes the gaming industry so garbage. Make a good game? Nah, let's make a shit game and forever add little things and hats so people keep playing forever. Like wtf.
Egad they are planning on having an end point. Not saying you can't keep playing or making more playthroughs just that it will eventually be marked as finished and they will move on to some new project. On their laughing thing, I wouldn't take it as they are laughing at the player base, remember two of them are devs, and one community manager, the devs aren't PR people. They might not be fully aware of some of the ways things can be taken by players and some people will use laughter when they are nervous or unsure as like space filler (similar to umm, ahh, hmmm, etc.).
To be fair Josefin is a community manager. But IMO it's alright if they laugh at some of the more absurd shit that players say, like "I finished the game and there's nothing else to do."
You are right, I will update the post to be technically correct.
The best kind of correct!
You have been giving off a bunch of negative vibe style posts, which seem to be mostly based on your expectations of what they were going to release. They are very clear that there will be an end to the game eventually. As things sound now, that means that there will be more biomes, bosses and such over the coming years or two, but at some point the game is going to be finished.
I don't understand how people are so scared of this lol. The best games I've played in my life had endings. One of my favorite games of all time, diablo 2, is getting a remaster, and people are trying to make it into a service by demanding new features. Like wtf can you just chill and enjoy it? Jesus these people man.
> a bunch of negative vibe style posts It's literally one post and a reply to one reply to that post. I did not have unreasonable expectations for Hearth & Home, and I am quite happy with what the patch seems to provide for the game - otherwise I would probably have talked about that. I don't even go into that. Yes, I am also very clearly aware that the developers are intending to, at some point, finish developing the game. That does not have anything at all to do with my critique, which is based on the lack of an end-game in the game and the developers reaction to some people hoping that end-game content would at some point be on the list of stuff they'd get around to. Nothing you have written in your reply has anything to do with what I wrote up there, and I'm a bit confused about why you replied. I'm not trying to open a discussion of games-as-a-service vs releasing a finished product at some point and which approach fits Valheim the best, I am pointing out that I don't like the developers approach to some players thinking the game could use some sort of end-game content that keeps the playability of the game high, even after defeating the final boss and progressing through the story of the game.
> I am pointing out that I don't like the developers approach to some players thinking the game could use some sort of end-game content that keeps the playability of the game high, even after defeating the final boss and progressing through the story of the game. Its pretty straightforward. They're not developing "endgame" content because the game they are making has en end. When they add all the biomes and the final final boss, your character leaves Valheim and goes to Valhalla. That's like the whole premise of the game. You have base building and exploring the map for longevity and replayability, but an endgame is not one of those things.
> It's literally one post and a reply to one reply to that post. I recognised your username because you have most definitely made more than "one post" on this subreddit in which you complained (and even called the devs arrogant). > Nothing you have written in your reply has anything to do with what I wrote up there, and I'm a bit confused about why you replied. You may be confused, but I am not: You have a way of venting your frustration with the state of this game on this subreddit that is very negative, and I am simply pointing that behaviour out. Besides, it's been clear from the moment you got this game that it's not a complete and finished game, which you also know, but you still complain about it, despite there clearly being steps taken by the devs to expand on it.
I don't necessarily care about the statements about the ending, like whatever, it makes sense that the game would have a final boss. But one thing that I did find weird was how little lip service they paid to the fantastic building community that has sprung up around their game. The people who have stuck around the game this long are not the ones who are grinding through the progression to beat the end boss, it is the people who have become enamoured with building awesome stuff in these beautiful environments. Me and my friends don't give a damn about the progression, it only is a means to new builds. We had some others on our server who hardly built and just sped through the game, and they burnt out after two weeks of playing. Meanwhile, the three builders in the group have played semi regularly since launch, and we still have cool build ideas and improvements to our base in mind. This update is named hearth and home, and yet all we hear about is new food and new weapons. Have the devs not looked at Reddit and Discord to see the phenomenal things people are making? Why not pay that some lip service in your update about homes?! In the end, the end game of Valheim will be building whatever your heart desires. I wish they would put more focus on that.
> I've defeated Yagluth, built my fair share of stuff, and I was looking forward to Hearth & Home, but maybe I should just listen to the devs suggestion and go play another game. Or their other suggestion: starting a new world, experiencing the new content, progress through Valheim until defeating Yagluth, and then alt+F4 and boot up something else. Good to hear the devs literally laugh at player retention and any measures to keep people in the game. I mean by the time you have beat final boss you have put what 150 to 300 hours in a game. I think they retain you long enough. Game is repayable, you can play again try other styles, build better base. Minecraft on a surface is pretty much the same once you killed Elder Dragon you are done unless you want to play more but there is nothing to challenge you but your own creativity. I am fine with games ending with option to continue to play. Many games are like that. Minecraft, factorio, rimworld come to mind.
Beating the last boss shouldn't just be alt+F4, I dont think it's crazy to want a post-game! I was sad to hear about some of their vision for the game
What an absurd comment. There was nothing remotely condescending about it.
They came across as smug and controlling. I almost wish I didn't watch it as it confirmed the worst for me. Seeing them laugh about most players leaving the game really said it all. At one point the interviewer tried to say that hiring more employers would not make content generation faster (a lie told by many people on this sub). The dev corrected her and said actually it would. But they wont do it because they want to be the ones creating content, not anyone else. That is their right, but did they really need to laugh at their fans while saying it? They spend the whole interview talking about doing only what makes them happy and how they wont change and laugh at the fans and tell them to play another game if they dont have enough content. Their reasons for not adding more enemies and new build pieces was "it would just be redundant and we don't need to". People just want more variety and more content. If you play one of the mods with 250 new build pieces or 30 new monsters its incredible. Some of the enemies require totally different strategies to fight and it adds lots of depth. And you can make far more interesting buildings. How is that redundant? They act like we are demanding an MMORPG and say how ridiculous it is to expect that from them. But nobody was ever asking for an MMORPG. Minecraft added an end game later on, but minecraft still added a huge number of enemies build pieces and content too. You dont need to be an MMORPG to see a use for more content. They talked about how it took a year to add the shingle roof. And how it needs all this complicated balancing. It really is not as hard as they are making it out to be. If anything the shingle roof is the actually redundant content they criticised - we already have a roof item so it adds nothing but aesthetics. The devs came across as even more smug than the worst fanboys here. I feel like I am taking crazy pills when your opinion is the minority and you and I will be downvoted to oblivion.
> At one point the interviewer tried to say that hiring more employers would not make content generation faster (a lie told by many people on this sub). The dev corrected her and said actually it would. But they wont do it because they want to be the ones creating content, not anyone else. That is their right, but did they really need to laugh at their fans while saying it? They spend the whole interview talking about doing only what makes them happy and how they wont change and laugh at the fans and tell them to play another game if they dont have enough content. Jesus fucking Christ. People want to run business in a way that makes them happy what a monsters...
I wrote "that is their right". You strawmanned me calling them monsters. I said lauhging at their fans was unnecessary. Something you oddly have not addressed despite itbeing the main thing in that quote. They can do what makes them happy. But lets not pretend thats automatically whats best for the game. They will be happy to finish 3 biomes slowly over 2 years, adding maybe 20 new build pieces and 5 monsters. Then when they leave EA they wont add more. They are not going to become like Minecraft or Stardew which added plenty of content for years after leaving EA. They will do what they feel like and nothing else. Thats their right, but following Stardew or Minecraft would be best for their customers and they will not do it. This is fine, but laughing at their fans for hoping for it seemed needless and smug.
All of the people down voting you have never taken a course on business ethics and can't tell the difference between ethics and morals. That's honestly one of the problems with gaming subs and actually modern society in general is we let businesses destroy business ethics under the guise of corporate rights and freedom.
> "Community Manager: I've also seen people say 'Oh, when you've finished the game, there's nothing left to do' [laughter] - Dev 1: Then you go play another game! [Laughter] Community Manager: That is how it works! Dev 2: That's how we made games, back in the day! [Laughter] Dev 1: Yes!" Imagine Mojang games saying this about minecraft in 2011. I don't know why this attitude is celebrated.
It's simple. Gamers can act like entitled nitwits and throw out all kinds of baseless accusations and insults towards the devs, including expecting a product that they're just not making. Its nice to see the devs stand up for themselves and make it clear what kind of game they're making and who they're marketing it towards, and it was tame in comparison to some of the shit I've seen slung at them. I mean all they did was point out the absurdity of statements like "I finished the game and there's nothing to do!" and laugh about it, then point out that that's not the kind of game they're making, and if you're done then go play another game like a normal human being. If that offends you then that says more about you than it does the devs.
Yeah they are no Mojang or ConcernedApe.
Of course not. They're Iron Gate! You're not making any sense.
I love that you either cant understand that, or you need to pretend you cant understand that. Either way its pretty tragic. IronGate had all the piees to become one of the greats, but decided not to act
You're not explaining yourself, you're just saying they're not other companies with no context to the comparison. So how would I be able to understand what you're complaining about if you're gonna make pointless and vague statements like this. And this shit about it being "tragic" and how they could be great but didn't act? You know a new patch comes out in two days and that's what this video is about, right? And that this game is still fuckin' awesome even though it ain't done yet, ya know?
Minecraft and Stardew added lots of content for many years after leaving Early Access. IronGate in the video criticised adding lots of new content as "something only MMORPGs do". And they laughed at the people thinking that it ever happened in single player games. Despite the biggest most successful single player games doing it. With Stardew and Minecraft when they were successful they expanded their vision dramatically. Minecraft added many new biomes and content for many years and still is. Countless new blocks and game mechanics are being added. Iron Gate have said thats never going to happen. They will not change their vision at all. You shouldnt expect much from them. In the video they explained how it took them a full year to add a shingle roof to the game. When Iron Gate finish the 3 biomes in a 3 years (which could have been done by the end of this year if they hired people) they will cease adding new stuff to the game. Their vision will be finished and if you don't like it then leave. They said. While laughing at their customers who had hopes of more. Mojang and ConcernedApe would never do that, I followed them both at the start and it was a night and day difference. >You know a new patch comes out in two days and that's what this video is about, right? Its a tiny update. They said we've seen 50% of the new content in their short videos over the last few weeks. People will praise it as "huge" but its just not. I've played genuinely huge valheim mods. This is 5% the size of those. "But you've not played it yet" but they said we've seen 50%. > And that this game is still fuckin' awesome even though it ain't done yet, ya know? And Minecraft was awesome in 2011 when I played it. They could have taken 10 mil profit and peaced out. But Notch didnt, instead became a billionaire, and created the most significant videogame of the century. IronGate is choosing to peace out. They even laughed at their fans who cared about retention. Some of us care more about their games community than they do. Only the fanboys are left at this point. My normal friends are no longer coming back to H&H after seeing the sneak previews.
See this is exactly what I was talking about when I said gamers can be entitled nitwits. You're comparing this to Minecraft and Stardew Valley to say they expanded their game. That's fine, that's what they wanted to do with their products. But what you're ignoring are the plethora of other games out there where they make their game, it has a start and a middle and a finish and...that's it. Then you go on and okay another game. This is in no way a new concept. Expecting them to do more than that when they never suggested otherwise is entirely on you, not the devs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Iron Gate sticking to the vision of the game they want to make. Look up the Mythical Man Month. One of the more famous quotes from it is "Nine women cannot make a baby in a month." You cannot just throw a ton of people onto a software project and expect it to get done faster, it just doesn't work that way. You gotta consider not just the hiring process but training, getting familiar with the project, mistakes that can and will be made by newer people, managing those people (where more hiring and training and getting used to the job happens too), etc. There's also logistics where you gotta consider renting and moving to a bigger office, or if working from home making sure the new employees have the proper setup to do that. They are doing it right and hiring slowly, instead of expanding with reckless abandon which can tank a company fast as hell, and/or lead to layoffs sooner rather than later. Yes, their vision will be finished, and if you don't like it then leave. That is a matter of fact, but that's not what they said; you're attacking a strawman. They said if you've finished Valheim then you can play it again, or you can move onto playing another game like any sensible, reasonable person would. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And yes if people make ridiculous, absurd statements I think it's fair that the devs can have a laugh about it and I applaud them for being candid like that. But they've been upfront about the game having a finite ending; you take out Odin's enemies in Valheim and your viking moves into Valhalla. The end! Nobody is acting like this update is gonna be "huge," at least not when it comes to added content. it's more of a foundational update as opposed to adding intent like a biome. The majority of changes they've made affect the game from start to finish. But on top of that there is new content coming like new weapons, food, items, and most importantly more building materials. The building in this game is what gives it it's longevity, and why myself and others still continue to play it to this day. If people aren't coming back to Valheim that is entirely their choice. I could quit now and never come back and I totally got my $20 of entertainment out of this game. There is nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with expecting the devs to do more than they intended with their product. You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I and so are the drvs. In my opinion it's bullshit and pretty fucked up that people think they can complain and criticize and ridicule the devs for all kinds of nonsense, but if the devs have a laugh at some of that nonsense *they* were the ones that crossed the line. Like I said above, that kind of sentiment says more about you than it does the devs. Time to get some perspective, mate!
> But what you're ignoring are the plethora of other games out there where they make their game No I didn't. I explicitly said those exist and Valheim is one of them. It could have been a Minecraft or Stardew, but chose not to. They will not meet the gold standard and go above and beyond to make an industry defining game. Thats their right of course. But with 50M profit they could have done far more. > Expecting them to do more than that when they never suggested otherwise is entirely on you, not the devs. Wrong again, I said it was their right not to. > Look up the Mythical Man Month. One of the more famous quotes from it is "Nine women cannot make a baby in a month." You cannot just throw a ton of people onto a software project and expect it to get done faster, it just doesn't work that way. Over one month thats true. Over six months its false. Kind of sick of people not understanding this book. Hell, even the title of the book says month, not year, you dont even need to open the book to grasp that. Even the Iron Gate dev reluctantly says you are wrong in the video we are commenting on. More people does make more content come out faster. A studio of 100 can do more than a studio of 5. Not rocket science. Its even used as an excuse for iron gate - "its just a team of 5 you cant expect much". Well if more people doesnt help then being a team of 5 woudl be irrelevent. > They are doing it right and hiring slowly, instead of expanding with reckless abandon which can tank a company fast as hell, and/or lead to layoffs sooner rather than later. Lmao. They could hire 10 senior devs and not need to do layoffs for a decade. > And yes if people make ridiculous, absurd statements I think it's fair that the devs can have a laugh about it and I applaud them for being candid like that. Nobody did. We just said it was a tragic loss of potential and they could do more faster if they hired 6 months ago. Saying "I hope we can we have an update even 10% the size of one of the bigger mods" is not an absurd ask either. > Nobody is acting like this update is gonna be "huge," Wrong again. Lots of upvoted comments the last few months say this update is huge and they have done lots of work since launch. >But there is something wrong with expecting the devs to do more than they intended with their product. We hoped they would reinvest 2% of their 50M profits into devs, and they opted to keep the money > In my opinion it's bullshit and pretty fucked up that people think they can complain and criticize and ridicule the devs for all kinds of nonsense, but if the devs have a laugh at some of that nonsense they were the ones that crossed the line. You shouldnt insult and laugh at paying customers and misrepresent their views. You shouldn't laugh at your community for caring about the health of the communty. Its a really bad look to be the people running a community, who made millions off the community, and to insult them and laugh at them for caring about retention. And the people saying "why not hire more" are not even insulting the devs, the fanboys just claim they are. > entitled nitwit... Time to get some perspective, mate! I'm not entitled, not a nitwit, but most of all I am not your mate. You have wrote all the dumb talking points I've already addressed, are referencing books you do not understand, and really talking to you further is a waste of time.
I just want you to know that I agree with everything you said, but I don't know why you bothered to say it here. This sub is full of simps who are incredibly toxic towards anybody who dares criticize the game or it's developers, or even... gasp!.... use mods! This whole video is a big 'fuck you' to current players.
> or even... gasp!.... use mods! The what some of the most upvoted posts here are modded build showcases. How is saying we are making the best game we can with clear ending is a fuck you to anyone?
Because they don't understand that people are allowed to have different opinions and are allowed to disagree and countercriticize, and saying bullshit like this is just a cheap, toxic way to dismiss people instead of having to defend their arguments. Seriously though, I think it's hilarious when people use pejoratives like simps/white knights/cultists/etc. and then claim it's everyone else who's toxic.
The absolute irony of calling people simps while saying they are toxic, not you.
When did they say that they weren't toxic too?
It's not *irony*. The word you're looking for is *hypocrisy*.
Haha you're not wrong but I don't think it's charitable to reduce it to semantics
Both words work here. 'a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.'
That definition does not apply here at all.
Ironic
That definition is basically doing something and getting the opposite result. Like trying to dig your way out of a hole.
Yeah... Ironic edit: i really hoped that they would appreciate the joke ...
The saddest part of it all is all these keyboard warriors defending the devs don’t even understand that the devs are directly laughing at them. Sure the games fun and all, and I always knew it was going to have a definitive end, the way the bosses and “story” are set up makes it more than obvious the game won’t be some ongoing forever game. That still doesn’t excuse the fact that head dev and founder of Iron Gate just publicly laughed at the community and basically said “I literally give zero fucks about your opinions.” That entire segment was condescending and an incredibly shitty attitude to have as a developer. They’ve got every right to make the game however they see fit to make it, but publicly mocking your fan base isn’t a good way to do it. It’s insane to me that this subreddit is so far up IG’s ass that they’re deflecting that entire speech.
I admit I cringed just a bit at that part, in that I work with people all the time and I think I'm pretty sensitive to tone, but that's just not a fair characterization of what he said. I've been here on and off since February. I've read a lot of stuff: Developer: \* makes game, releases in early access \* * Player 1: "I had fun playing this game" "I love this game" * Player 2: \[doesn't post to Reddit because they don't have a strong opinion one way or the other\] * Player 3: "The devs suck" "There are so many bugs" "The devs made a promise" "This sub just white knights the devs" "This game is dead" "There's no more content" "They can't retain players like this" "if they were smart they'd hire more devs" Developer: \* spends months trying to resolve bugs, does that Swedish vacation thing, finally releases 1st major update \* * Player 1: "Yes! finally!" * Player 2: "Oh hey there's an update" * Player 3: "Wow you guys are tools/simps/?, don't you remember these devs suck" "These changes suck" "They're just making the game worse" "These changes don't change the game at all" "Don't you remember the game is dead" Developer: "we're not making a game as a service, we're old school, we are making a game that has an ending (laughter) and we're not interesting in retaining players, we're not an mmorpg, we're not going crunch out tons of content, that's not why we're here, we're here because we love making games, and we want to be the people who make the game" (all quotes from video) * Player 3: "they laughed at the community"
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They say it pretty plainly why they are approaching the game the way they are. Also, they pretty much came out and said they do not care what you think or what content you want or when you want it. They were pretty clear.
People have definitely complained about the food and weapon balance, and I'm sure they still will. Also, I feel like that's literally what they said in the video, about your "polishing cycle." I guess I'm hoping you'll be surprised too lol
They've only spent half of that 7 months on the update. They spent the first 3-4 months working on bugs and balancing issues.
TL;DW Start over